Writs Granting TS XP [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Rast

07-31-2007, 03:39 PM

Valdaglerion

07-31-2007, 04:09 PM

dartie

07-31-2007, 04:15 PM

Although I understand the perspective of those who think 7% is better than nothing, I think the OP's point is being lost. The claim is that most TS writs (except the #0 ones when you do them at the #0 level) require us to make many items that are a level or more below your current level. Consider a hypothetical L53 character. If my L53 woodworker grinds out 12 L53 items, she used to get more experience than if she instead made the 12 items required for a L50 writ.The OP seems to think that if I do the L50 writ, I should come out noticeably ahead of just grinding out 12 level 53 items. Since that difference works out in the OP's mind to be quite close to 7%, then 7% is insufficient incentive to work on writs as opposed to grinding items at our max level. Although I don't think the OP's math is correct, I believe the point is that the bonus experience for completing the writ should be noticeably more than the experience for simply grinding items at our own max tradeskill level. Some of the responses don't appear to be addressing that contention, so I'm trying to clear it up. I am NOT saying that I agree with the OP's position. In fact, I do tradeskill writs primarily for status, so any extra XP is fine and dandy with me. I just want to make sure folks are talking about the same thing.

Condar Tarsonia

07-31-2007, 04:19 PM

Raston, while I understand the points you bring up, I think the part where you mention "The rewards are built into the concept of adventurering" is key. All of those 'extra' rewards are a part of the normal adventuring process, not specific to writs. Granted, I've found a Master I myself on a root horror, but found many, many more not doing writs. The chance is there, yes, but I don't consider that chance to be comparative to anything in crafting. It's a risk vs. reward issue, which seems to me the reason adventuring is (and should be) more rewarding in that sense ('extra rewards' as you called them).With that said, the fact I'm earning extra XP and coin, in addition to status for the guild, seems to make these tradeskill writs extremely useful, and a benefit to crafters - not something to complain about. That was the primary concern I was trying to address in my post, but I appreciate your points! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Grumble69

07-31-2007, 04:21 PM

Well, it's more than we were getting than before. We've essentially got two options for when we grind--writs vs straight grind. If you go writs, you get status in lieu of keeping/selling your items. You get a bit of an xp boost which offsets some of the easier items you had to make. If you straight grind, you can sell what you make. As a provisioner in my 50s, even 'crap items' (low tier) are selling well so I still prefer the latter approach. I was hoping to use this new system to take the edge off the grind. It's gotten so bad that I don't try to produce 2 food items any more. I've gone back to my ways from my very old DAOC days where I push a button to start the process, read a book, and blindly press the key again when I get the audio queue that it's done. Yeah, I don't make as much profit as I could. But dang it's boring mashing keys.

Condar Tarsonia

07-31-2007, 04:23 PM

dartie, I understand what you and the OP are saying - why not more of an XP bonus? Yes, maybe you'll get the same XP (or even a little less) by doing 'easier' items. You could potentially get more by doing even-con recipes, without the writ.By doing that, however, you get no other benefits - your money back and a little bit more experience. The writs provide extra coin and status, and now an XP bonus for completion. Should the XP bonus be more? Maybe, I haven't been able to login yet and try it myself. I think a better solution may be to offer greater 'selections' of writs (one every 2 or 3 levels, so that you can make items closer to your level and still get the bonus).

Jardon

07-31-2007, 04:27 PM

I am not understanding the OPs point, you get the XP for making the 12 items, plus 7% for completing the writ. That is 7% more then if you just did the same 12 items without doing the writ.Seems like that is 7% more XP per writ then you got before when doing writs.Now if you are complaining you are not getting as much XP per combine on a writ because the combines are blue, I can see the point, but then you are not getting the extra cash and status from making the highest level combines you can when not doing writs.

Rast

07-31-2007, 04:33 PM

Jardon, I believe that is what he is saying. Typically TS writs are not for even con items, even the hardest ones, will start several levels below you and typically work up a level until they reach the level of the writ (at least for armorer ones they do)

Illmarr

07-31-2007, 04:41 PM

Tayros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Are you kidding me? Wasn't this sold as an equalizing measure, that sages wouldn't notice a difference in their leveling but other crafters would? I took a difficult writ, equal to my level, made 12 items 5 levels below me and got.... 7% exp over the crafting exp!!! Whee!!! Add a zero to make this an equalizer... I could've done the grind on 12 equal level items and made more exp with the same resources and time commitment. Nice try, but honestly I'm very disappointed. <img src="/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> What was your level? Does anyone know if the exp bonus is larger/smaller in T7 than it is in T4 for example? If it's a 7% bonus in T7 then wow, you've just cut the raw usage to grind the rest of a level after Pristines on my 62 Tailor almost in half!!! Highest available (60 hard) Writ at 62 (Still white recipes) gives somewhere between 7-8% exp making the 6 items. Tack on a 7% bonus for completion and you're saving me hours of harvesting.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rast

07-31-2007, 04:43 PM

not sure Illmarr, to be honest, I logged in just long enough at lunch to look at the changes to my paladin abilities and came back to work <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Finora

07-31-2007, 04:47 PM

I've not yet got around to trying them with my character who isn't maxed trade yet, so I am not sure of exact percentages and what not yet. However, doesn't it make sense that the 'easy' tradeskill writ (aka the non rush order) one will yield less benefit in xp than doing a rush order? If I'm not mistaken Domino said both types of writs would give the same xp percentage. If you want to level more efficiently with writs, then you do the rush writs, which involve fewer combines for the same % xp for completion.

Thay

07-31-2007, 04:50 PM

Condar Tarsonia wrote: <blockquote>Hmm, maybe I'm missing something, so my apologies if I sound ignorant here <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />These are tradeskill writs, correct? The purpose of a writ is to earn status, both for yourself and for your guild. So lets compare this to adventure writs...Adventure writs - 0 XP bonus, 0 extra coin gain, status earned for guild and selfTradeskill writs - XP bonus, additional coin gain, status earned for guild and selfAs it stands, it seems pretty good to me. I could argue that adventure writs need tweaking because I get NO coin, and I'm killing enemies that are 'below me' (doing the 'standard four' at 70) and I could do better by going and killing other heroics for XP and loot.While I haven't tried the writs myself, it seems like this is a huge plus. Granted, maybe you could have earned the same amount of XP doing even-con items, but you made items easier, made extra coin, and about the same if not more XP. So what's the issue? <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That's actually a good idea; compare adventuring writs to TS writs...as they were before the changeAdventurer:You get the full amount of XP per mob. Tradeskilling:You get XP bonus for making the first pristine item. All after that are less XP. If both people have 100% vitality and are earning double XP, the Adventurer earns more XP per kill than the tradeskiller does per Item (after the first pristine is created)XP Advantage - AdventurerIn Adventuring writs, you get a choice between solo and heroicIn Tradeskilling writs, you get a choice between normal, and rush job(note: not mentioning the lower level or lower quality writs)Adventurers choosing Heroic will earn more XP per mob than the Tradeskiller will if doing a rush job because you likely get no "first time pristine" bonus.Adventurers doing heroic writs will earn more status than a tradeskiller (IIRC comparing highest level sage writ to writ for basilisks in Bonemire. I think both writs con blue to me, and award about 20 more status on the Adv side)Adventurers killing 12 basilisks can do so FAR faster than a tradeskiller making 4 copies of 3 Items. I can pull 5 or 6 basilisks at a pop so it takes like 6 minutes per basilisk writ compared to 12 or so for Rush OrdersAdvantage - AdventurerIn solo Adventurer writs:Each solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a body lootEach solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestIn heroic Adventurer writs:Each heroic mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a body lootEach heroic mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestNow let's take the premis above and completely disregard it, k?.Let's say, for example, you kill those basilisks in the bonemire for the writ. There's what? like 12 to kill? If only 4 body drops occur and you don't die doing the writ, you'll earn about 4-5G per writ. You've expended nothing more than food & drink (same as the crafter)Crafters receive the cost of the fuels (and a small pittance after each step is completed, that only equals the payout for an adventurer writ where no chest dropped...just body drops)Advantage - AdventurerTradeskillers end up working longer than Adventurers on same type writ. (non rush and rush job) FoI is now far more rare than it used to be so crafter's chance of getting a rare has diminished to the point that there's far less chance of getting a rare combine than you adventurers getting a Treasured or better chest. Case in point; My dirge ran to Zek to kill orcs for writ and on the first green down arrow solo mob he dropped a master chest with multiple items. Master Spell, Loam PeltAdvantage - Adventurer

Illmarr

07-31-2007, 05:09 PM

<cite>Thaych wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's actually a good idea; compare adventuring writs to TS writs...as they were before the changeAdventurer:You get the full amount of XP per mob. Tradeskilling:You get XP bonus for making the first pristine item. All after that are less XP. Check your Websters. A Bonus is a value added, not a baseline. The first has extra, all the rest are the norm.If both people have 100% vitality and are earning double XP, the Adventurer earns more XP per kill than the tradeskiller does per Item (after the first pristine is created)False. At 69 Carpenter, I get about .75% exp from making a level 65 Strongbox. When I was a 69 Guardian I did not get .75% exp for every Basilisk (level 67) I killed in Bonemire grinding writsXP Advantage - AdventurerIn Adventuring writs, you get a choice between solo and heroicIn Tradeskilling writs, you get a choice between normal, and rush job(note: not mentioning the lower level or lower quality writs)Adventurers choosing Heroic will earn more XP per mob than the Tradeskiller will if doing a rush job because you likely get no "first time pristine" bonus.Adventurers doing heroic writs will earn more status than a tradeskiller (IIRC comparing highest level sage writ to writ for basilisks in Bonemire. I think both writs con blue to me, and award about 20 more status on the Adv side)Adventurers killing 12 basilisks can do so FAR faster than a tradeskiller making 4 copies of 3 Items. I can pull 5 or 6 basilisks at a pop so it takes like 6 minutes per basilisk writ compared to 12 or so for Rush OrdersAdvantage - AdventurerWrit stacking allows for greater status for time spent, true. For a baseline Adventurer (For the sake of discussion here, I exclude Druids and Wizards because they can cut their travel drastically where 20 classes can not) Say 5 minutes to run around Qeynos picking up your 2 Basilisk writs from the Mages and Guard and getting back to the docks of QH. Then bell to Nek. Zone to EL. Run to spires. Be generous and call it a 2 minute wait at the spires. You're now up to 8-9 minutes from start to zoning into Bonemire. Now kill your mobs. The Qeynos writs call for killing 20. Call it 15 minutes to finish it if no one else is killing them and you can just sweep through them . 23 minutes to get about 16900 status. I can do 3 69 hard timed writs in that time. I'll stipulate that porting classes will do much better, but do you want to compare the rank and file, or the 17% that are special? EDIT ADD: And no Adventurer is going to do Heroic writs as fast as non-heroic. It's a completely imappropriate comparison with regard to a difficult order. You get more status faster with difficult if you are capable of doing them. The reverse is true with Heroic writs unless you add other players to help you, which obviously grants far greater status rewards, but then voids the entire comparison by playing group vs. soloIn solo Adventurer writs:Each solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a body lootEach solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestIn heroic Adventurer writs:Each solo mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a body lootEach solo mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestNow let's take the premis above and completely disregard it, k?.Let's say, for example, you kill those basilisks in the bonemire for the writ. There's what? like 12 to kill? If only 4 body drops occur and you don't die doing the writ, you'll earn about 4-5G per writ. You've expended nothing more than food & drink (same as the crafter)Crafters receive the cost of the fuels (and a small pittance after each step is completed, that only equals the payout for an adventurer writ where no chest dropped...just body drops)Advantage - AdventurerTradeskillers end up working longer than Adventurers on same type writ. (non rush and rush job) FoI is now far more rare than it used to be so crafter's chance of getting a rare has diminished to the point that there's far less chance of getting a rare combine than you adventurers getting a Treasured or better chest. Case in point; My dirge ran to Zek to kill orcs for writ and on the first green down arrow solo mob he dropped a master chest with multiple items. Master Spell, Loam PeltAdvantage - Adventurer </blockquote> You want to make your argument based on a sampling of 1 extremely lucky drop? Just checking.

Rast

07-31-2007, 05:15 PM

to make one comment Illmarr, you do need to cover the time it takes to harvest in there (or the time it takes to make the money to buy them, either or) in the TS writs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But I agree, I've always though TSing was easier and faster to level than adventuring, it just takes a whole lot more patience...

Jesdyr

07-31-2007, 05:22 PM

Thaych .. Umm .. There is way too much there that is just wrong. Illmarr pointed out some of it so .. I wont <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I can earn much more "reward" SP from TS writs than I can doing kill writs in bonemire. HOWEVER, overall SP will be higher with the kill writs if I buy SP loot on the broker at "fair" prices and I factor in the money/time used to get harvested materials. here is the thing ... tradeskilling and adventuring should not be viewed as equal. Using adventure rewards as a basis for TS rewards is just stupid. The level of effort needed to get a character to Adv 70 is MUCH MUCH greater than getting ANY TS class to 70. Here Domino is giving people "more reason" to do TS writs and people are complaing ?! .. I have always grinded on TS writs. I like getting the SP for my guild as well as the TS faction for titles. If you dont care about these things, DONT DO THE WRITs.

Illmarr

07-31-2007, 05:45 PM

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>to make one comment Illmarr, you do need to cover the time it takes to harvest in there (or the time it takes to make the money to buy them, either or) in the TS writs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But I agree, I've always though TSing was easier and faster to level than adventuring, it just takes a whole lot more patience...</blockquote>Thanks, I did inadvertently leave that out and it should be figured in. I set aside blocks for harvesting while gaining back vitality so I forget that part since I have enough in a box for a couple of levels when I go to craft. But TS is definately easier to level than an Adventurer. Going to step away and take a deep breath now. *LOL*And completely off-topic. I've already seen 4 threads that asked if things written in the patch notes went live. Don't sheep know how to read?

Valdaglerion

07-31-2007, 08:03 PM

<cite>Thaych wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>That's actually a good idea; compare adventuring writs to TS writs...as they were before the changeAdventurer:You get the full amount of XP per mob. Tradeskilling:You get XP bonus for making the first pristine item. All after that are less XP.This is akin to the FIRST time you KILL a named mob and get a special XP and AA bonus for killing a NPC. Everytime you kill them after that you get normal xp and no aa. How about the FIRST time you explore a new zone and get bonus xp and aa?? Well, the FIRST time you make something in a pristine format you are essentially getting that "exploration" bonus. Since AA doesnt exist in crafting, it is crafting xp. If both people have 100% vitality and are earning double XP, the Adventurer earns more XP per kill than the tradeskiller does per Item (after the first pristine is created)You do realize that xp gained for mobs is SHARED among the group members right? The fact that you can kill faster and essentially earn more XP in shorter time is the offset to the fact you would getting all the XP but killing at a much slower rate. XP Advantage - AdventurerIn Adventuring writs, you get a choice between solo and heroic (REALLY??? In over 300 writs for all 5 city factions including Ironforge I have yet to see any difference in the writs for adventuring other than the mobs, locations, level of mobs and number to kill. Those variables provide slight variations to the personal/guild status you receive and mob status de facto but never seen HEROIC as a desgination anywhere in the writs themselves. Can you please provide examples??) In Tradeskilling writs, you get a choice between normal, and rush job (note: not mentioning the lower level or lower quality writs)Adventurers choosing Heroic will earn more XP per mob than the Tradeskiller will if doing a rush job because you likely get no "first time pristine" bonus. (You do, of course realize that adventurer writs provide no xp bonus by themselves right, you are only getting the xp from the actual mob kills...All the writs I have seen require pristine products to complete the writ so you get that bonus anyway the first time you make the item) Adventurers doing heroic writs will earn more status than a tradeskiller (IIRC comparing highest level sage writ to writ for basilisks in Bonemire. I think both writs con blue to me, and award about 20 more status on the Adv side)Adventurers killing 12 basilisks can do so FAR faster than a tradeskiller making 4 copies of 3 Items. I can pull 5 or 6 basilisks at a pop so it takes like 6 minutes per basilisk writ compared to 12 or so for Rush OrdersAdvantage - AdventurerIn solo Adventurer writs:Each solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a body lootEach solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestIn heroic Adventurer writs:Each heroic mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a body lootEach heroic mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestNow let's take the premis above and completely disregard it, k?.Let's say, for example, you kill those basilisks in the bonemire for the writ. There's what? like 12 to kill? If only 4 body drops occur and you don't die doing the writ, you'll earn about 4-5G per writ. You've expended nothing more than food & drink (same as the crafter)Crafters receive the cost of the fuels (and a small pittance after each step is completed, that only equals the payout for an adventurer writ where no chest dropped...just body drops) There is a little thing called Risk vs. Reward. How many crafters do you see transversing multiple zones to go KILL things and potentially being killed. I havent see a death occur at a crafting station in about forever. Enjoy the body drops, they are earned. In addition, there are rare events which occur in crafting which can provide back raws, fuel and in some cases a rare item. Not bad for the risk involved. Advantage - AdventurerTradeskillers end up working longer than Adventurers on same type writ. (non rush and rush job) If we pickup our writs at the same time the crafter will be far ahead of you at the end of it. I walk upstairs and get my writ, downstairs and perform it. I never zone and dont travel, everything at my finger tips. Chances are I will be done with my rish order before you even get to KoS. Ever want to drop some plat on a wager for it, let me know. FoI is now far more rare than it used to be so crafter's chance of getting a rare has diminished to the point that there's far less chance of getting a rare combine than you adventurers getting a Treasured or better chest. These seem to be getting more common but I wont argue the point they are rare enough as is. You get a far better chance of getting a rare from harvesting than crafting, that much is for sure. I never see crap loot from treasured chest though being sold consistently from 55g-1.2p /shrug Case in point; My dirge ran to Zek to kill orcs for writ and on the first green down arrow solo mob he dropped a master chest with multiple items. Master Spell, Loam Pelt Now repeat that process and tell us how many orcs you kill to get another drop from that trash mob....luck of the RNG, nothing more Advantage - Adventurer </blockquote>I am not arguing that adventuring isnt more profitable, it is by far. More risk, more reward but seriously, lets at least compare apples to apples....

Tremelle

07-31-2007, 08:30 PM

At 43, I think it was like a 5-6 ts point boost, that is major rather you realize it or not considering 1 pristien gives maybe 1-2 xp (depending on if you are double because of vitality or not) I was my under standing that this new change was to evenout the playing field between TS, by nerfing pristine and giving TS xp to writs.

Tremelle

07-31-2007, 08:33 PM

You also get rewards from harvesting, how may mobs drop loot worth 50-60g? Plus your excess or whatever can be sold on the broker.

dakoda71

07-31-2007, 09:17 PM

With my 67 WW today I was getting about 1.3 bubbles per writ just on the turn in, that does not include the exp I was getting for making the items. At 67 with vitality I get around that much for just making the items. So I was getting double what I would normally get...seems pretty good to me=)

Andira

07-31-2007, 09:43 PM

I find this is a huge improvement, particularly since the quest xp does not reduce vitality. As someone mentioned already, doing the writs with xp halves the leveling time after pristine bonuses, which is considerable when you count harvesting, especially in t6 and t7. You can also go longer with the vitality you have (I never grind without). Usually you can do 2 levels and a bit a week in t6, now that's 3 and something! Thank you Domino!

Eriol

07-31-2007, 10:11 PM

If the purpose was to provide an exp bonus, and an incentive to do TS writs rather than ALWAYS adventure ones, then it may have succeeded in being "better than before" but if the intention was to provide an "equalizing" force against scholar levelling speed, then they failed miserably IMO. Double, triple, or more bonus would have been needed.

Jai1

07-31-2007, 10:26 PM

I don't know how much equalizing this all does? At T7 I think I get 15k+ for adv writs where 7.5k ish is the crafting SP addition. I could be wrong. I could care less or not... but prefer... exp bonuses for TS writs. I'm doing them anyways and it doesn't seem like anyone is 'cancelling Christmas' around here. EQ2 just gets better! Complaints about new features aside, the exp bonus to TS writs means more Exp per 12 grind. Man, at T7 and 5-6 writs after pristine combines per level... I get pretty [Removed for Content] burnt. 8ish crafters though. Go figure.

Tayros

07-31-2007, 10:43 PM

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote> honestly, then make a sage and quit your whining....</blockquote> I have a Sage, doing very well, thanks. It's feedback like this that makes these boards asinine sometimes. My WHOLE point here was that I'm sick of the built-up expectations and then the let down. It is far from an equalizer. I'm comparing it to my Sage and the promised writ system as an equalizer falls very short of what was promised, much like your education.

Nuhus

07-31-2007, 11:00 PM

What level are you? 7% at level 20 and 7% at level 65 for example would make a huge difference in presenting an argument. I'm thinking the XP scales so it will be lower as you go up in tiers, but I don't know as I haven't tested it out yet.

Calthine

07-31-2007, 11:00 PM

Tayros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>My WHOLE point here was that I'm sick of the built-up expectations and then the let down. It is far from an equalizer. I'm comparing it to my Sage and the promised writ system as an equalizer falls very short of what was promised, much like your education. </blockquote> Sorry, it was never promised to be an equalizer. Here's a quote from Domino from my <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1022" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">GU 37 TS Preview</a> article. Italicized-boldface is my emphasis: “Sages, who have far more recipes than any other class, already level extremely fast, and would not level any faster if they switched to nothing but writs – in fact it would be slower for them. On the other hand provisioners, who have the fewest recipes of all, will likely see a huge improvement if they choose to do writs more often. And the writs are, of course, optional. All this will do is give other classes the option of approaching sage leveling speed,” she pointed out. “Sages who have enough pristine bonuses to level on those alone will likely still find it faster to level that way, but now other classes can get a boost too. And even sages may find it worthwhile to do some writs instead to earn status and faction, especially now those artisans who are not in high level guilds have the ability to earn that fancy in-home crafting station from their tradeskill faction!” She never said it would make you level as fast as a sage. Her example above indicates that it would still be slower then leveling a sage, but still an improvement. People got their own expectations up. Domino was straight-froward about it.

Nuhus

07-31-2007, 11:03 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tayros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>My WHOLE point here was that I'm sick of the built-up expectations and then the let down. It is far from an equalizer. I'm comparing it to my Sage and the promised writ system as an equalizer falls very short of what was promised, much like your education. </blockquote> Sorry, it was never promised to be an equalizer. Here's a quote from Domino from my <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1022" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">GU 37 TS Preview</a> article. Italicized-boldface is my emphasis: “Sages, who have far more recipes than any other class, already level extremely fast, and would not level any faster if they switched to nothing but writs – in fact it would be slower for them. On the other hand provisioners, who have the fewest recipes of all, will likely see a huge improvement if they choose to do writs more often. And the writs are, of course, optional. All this will do is give other classes the option of approaching sage leveling speed,” she pointed out. “Sages who have enough pristine bonuses to level on those alone will likely still find it faster to level that way, but now other classes can get a boost too. And even sages may find it worthwhile to do some writs instead to earn status and faction, especially now those artisans who are not in high level guilds have the ability to earn that fancy in-home crafting station from their tradeskill faction!” She never said it would make you level as fast as a sage. Her example above indicates that it would still be slower then leveling a sage, but still an improvement. People got their own expectations up. Domino was straight-froward about it. </blockquote>Heh, I was trying to find that in the dev posts saw it on one of your posts, not dominoes. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />My woodworker does a ton of writs cause he might as well grind on something worthwhile, this will be a huge improvement I think.

Valdaglerion

08-01-2007, 12:46 AM

Tayros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote> honestly, then make a sage and quit your whining....</blockquote> I have a Sage, doing very well, thanks. It's feedback like this that makes these boards asinine sometimes. My WHOLE point here was that I'm sick of the built-up expectations and then the let down. It is far from an equalizer. I'm comparing it to my Sage and the promised writ system as an equalizer falls very short of what was promised, much like your education. </blockquote>Ok, I am sick of people like you whining about how much easier it is to level a sage than any other class....wah.... I have leveled all but 2 classes to 70, yep, sage was quickest - yep, its the least busy of all my crafters...so what... My provisioner was one of the slowest to level with regards to number of combines but wait, everything stacks. I stocked on fuel and didnt have to see a merchant for literally days on end. I could camp at the station and start again next time. Couldnt say that with Sage. The provisioner also makes consistent money from consumables...none of those for Sages either. To make this really simple - PROS and CONS..everything has a tradeoff associated with it. Personally, I spent a lot of time leveling my toons, I dont want every tom dick and harry to get there 5 times as fast and at less cost than I did. Why should I take profit losses to people who want to put less effort into attaining those levels?? Or didnt you think of that? Of course you didnt, its all about what you want right now, right? Certain things in the game mechanics can be changed without compromising game play, certain things cant. Personally, this is one that shouldnt have been made to begin with. Leveling crafting is too fast and too easy as it is. Congrats - its now easier and faster and the products will be even more worthless and more products hit the higher tiers as more people now put forth the goal to "max before rok" Yeah, more competition in a saturated market will be a good thing /shrug

Ever-Befallen

08-01-2007, 01:16 AM

I got about 7% xp for a level 50 rush order, and 9% approx for a 54 rush order.

Bramwe

08-01-2007, 01:22 AM

Getting about 13% per rush order at lvl 64 Alchemist. Not bad since I am at 0 Vitality and no disco items to make other than Adept III which I cannot afford.

Tayros

08-01-2007, 01:59 AM

Everyone has great ideas on how this should be improved. Aside from status, I'll just [Removed for Content] and agree to disagree. The Toon I was leveling was a weaponsmith anyway. I'm guessing Calthine has another quote to shove down my throat how the devs are going to be honest about their career track as well. Cheers, look for my next feedback sometime in 2028.

Off

08-01-2007, 04:11 AM

I have to say that regardless of the amount of xp per writ, on top on the xp you already get from that actual combines, it's still more than anyone was getting before. Are some people just never happy? Gimme gimme gimme is all I see or hear sometimes. When they get what they asked for, it's still not good enough. Sorry, but it can be irritating. Sheesh the Devs could have left it as it was, but no, they changed it and added some extra xp. You should be grateful! Heck, I know I am.

Vonotar

08-01-2007, 06:51 AM

It's a fantastic change, much appreciated Domino! I don't understand why anybody would not be happy with the change, Domino has done exactly what she promised. Give it a rest and find some other Dev to pester (there are plenty who still promise more than they can deliver).

Rattfa

08-01-2007, 07:26 AM

I love this change. It has added some extra incentive to actually make an effor tradeskilling. My carpenter always found the rush orders REALLY easy and I would grind a lot with those...adding a small amount of xp for writs is great and will enhance my enjoyment of tradeskilling with my other alts. Thanks Domino for all your effort recently in tradeskilling <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Deson

08-01-2007, 07:44 AM

Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>It's a fantastic change, much appreciated Domino! I don't understand why anybody would not be happy with the change, Domino has done exactly what she promised. Give it a rest and find some other Dev to pester (there are plenty who still promise more than they can deliver). </blockquote>I still don't like it. I think it was a clever dodge of an issue that has potential to come back(and early on remains a whine issue) but for now, the only complaint I have is that it cheapens faction. When you give a faction giving activity other incentives like xp- especially when there are few comparable alternatives- you cheapen the value of the rewards that faction gives. Faction should be a reward in and of itself, not a side effect of an effectively optionless grind, unless you plan on removing the rewards attached to that faction. I still say the xp writs should have been separate from the faction ones but can't deny that overall this was a very smart move.Good job Domino! And I hope this is the official death of balance by numbers.

Sunlei

08-01-2007, 09:13 AM

VolgaDark

08-01-2007, 09:26 AM

I've only got time to test it with one of my non-70 crafter and have to say: "Thank you Lady Domino!"Originally I was gonna type this long-[Removed for Content] post about difference between classes but changed my mind. No point in it. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows the difference between crafting classes. But I will point out this: Sages level fast but the only time they make anything of value to others is if they work with rare materials. (the only exception being about 2-3 weeks after each expansion till market gets saturated by new tier adepts). My Sage and my Woodworker started leveling at same time. Experience wise the Sage is leading by about 14 levels. Money wise the Woodworker is leading, she not only supplies her own recipes books but her finances stay in positive and keep on growing. Sage is constantly in red financially and my main has to either buy her books or keep on giving her allowances. They both only work with rares per special orders. So please look at the whole picture. Each class has it's plus and it's minuses. Speed isn't everything.

Sunlei

08-01-2007, 09:52 AM

man no kidding about sage and all receipe number counters thinking the Sage Grass is way greener lol! my sage has never sold an app. 4 spell on the broker...just did those for the exp. to lvl. Other can put those app. 4 on the broker if they want to wait days for it to sell (or never sells) for one silver profit. I'd rather destroy the junk. I only make them if someone asks/needs them. Adept 3s only get used for lvling if one has the rare to create the spell. Most sage adept 3 are orders when i make someone a GREY no exp. adept 3. sure devs can check sages leveling history- private serverside developer only logs. and what they have made. welcome to see my sage logs and just how many adept 3 reciepes remain unused because don't have stacks of rares or noone has *ever* ordered that spell. people want masters and masters drop like rain especially pre 40.go make a sage and see what a grind it can be <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bithnar

08-01-2007, 09:59 AM

Some people will never be happy unless they get a "win" button on their UI'sI for one am looking forward to logging on my woodworker and doing some writs to see how the new writ system works. I am at lvl 53 and was not looking forward to grinding out those levels and now the grind won't be as bad or as long.Thank you for the Change Domino!

Besual

08-01-2007, 10:19 AM

<cite>Sunlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>man no kidding about sage and all receipe number counters thinking the Sage Grass is way greener lol! my sage has never sold an app. 4 spell on the broker...just did those for the exp. to lvl. Other can put those app. 4 on the broker if they want to wait days for it to sell (or never sells) for one silver profit. I'd rather destroy the junk. I only make them if someone asks/needs them. Adept 3s only get used for lvling if one has the rare to create the spell. Most sage adept 3 are orders when i make someone a GREY no exp. adept 3. sure devs can check sages leveling history- private serverside developer only logs. and what they have made. welcome to see my sage logs and just how many adept 3 reciepes remain unused because don't have stacks of rares or noone has *ever* ordered that spell. people want masters and masters drop like rain especially pre 40.go make a sage and see what a grind it can be <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>This thread is not about selling crafted goods. It's about get XPing. Sages get AT LEAST 12 recipes each level (one for each healer class and one for each mage class), 24 are quite common and can go up to 36 recipes. This means at least 12x pristine bonus each level. Other classes get 2-3 recipes each level = ~30-40 recipes for the full tier. The bonus from the tradeskill writs are supposed to close the gap between sages and other classes in terms of how many items you have to craft to reach the next level. If you get the same XP from crafting highest level items compared to the XP you get from doing a writ the LU has failed or we got the wrong promises. And coming back to the selling point: I think sages will make more profit then other classes once RoK lunched you you can hit level 80 as a sage quite fast. At least more the a weapon smith / armor smith / carpenter.

VolgaDark

08-01-2007, 10:38 AM

*rolls her eyes*No no and no! This LU never promised to close the exp gap between various classes. If you choose to read the update notes and/or any of Lady Domino's statements as a promise to let you get same exp as sages per same time frame then it is your prerogative but you definitely are miss-reading it. The only thing Domino promised was to make the gap little less. And she definitely delivered on it. As for ability to sell finished product .... This discussion may not be about it BUT it does factor in. Don't know about you but personally I rather level significantly slower but know that what I make is of some value to others. Anyways ... just how bloody fast should we level? Already the leveling speed has been upped by at least 300% with various tweeks over time! What's next? Instant levels just from opening the crafting windows? And people wonder why most Devs don't post much .... Cant blame them if what they post gets twisted and constantly used against them.

KamidariTuibumbi

08-01-2007, 10:39 AM

I'd like to add my thanks for this change as well. I didn't have long to play last night, but I did a few writs on my provisioner and the difference was huge. The turn-in consistently over doubled the exp I got doing the combines. At 58 with a 54 writ, I got about 7.5% on the combines, and 9% on the turn-in. At 59 with a 59 writ, I got about 12% on the combines (including one pristine bonus), and 13% on the turn-in. Only problem now is that I'll be earning our guild about half as much status as I work on leveling. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kri

08-01-2007, 10:39 AM

My Armorer was doing lots of writs anyway so for me this is an awesome change! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And 7-9% per writ is a lot more than I was expecting. Only slight change I would like to see would be a tighter level range for the items you make. Doing blue combines, bordering on green, yields a lot less XP than white combines. But that's a minor point. All in all, I'm very happy about this. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lishara

08-01-2007, 12:55 PM

Anyone complaining about this XP being too low is insane. I actually thought I would see people complaining that the XP for writs were too high and trivializing leveling!Consider this, you still get the 7-10% xp at the high levels too. So maybe it doesn't make much difference at the lower levels, but at the higher levels it is huge. Even leveling my jeweler, she runs out of pristine bonuses far before the level is over (she's 64 now). The xp for writs is making leveling so nice and fast. I would DEFNITELY not get that amount of xp for even level recipes alone. And another advantage? The quest xp you get for the writs DOES NOT TAKE YOUR VITALITY! So you stretch your vit even further.She's gone from level 61 to 64 and still has 69% vitality (started with 100%). That's insane.

rumblepants

08-01-2007, 01:24 PM

Ok, maybe I'm seeing different math. I took one of my toons I've been neglecting for the longest time (my woodworker) anmd started doing writs using blue combines. Did it for one level. Then I switched to just grinding on white combines since I didn't have any writs that use them. It took about the same amount of materials either way but I gained stsatus with writs. Seems good to me.

Lilj

08-01-2007, 01:24 PM

<cite>Lishara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone complaining about this XP being too low is insane. I actually thought I would see people complaining that the XP for writs were too high and trivializing leveling!Consider this, you still get the 7-10% xp at the high levels too. So maybe it doesn't make much difference at the lower levels, but at the higher levels it is huge. Even leveling my jeweler, she runs out of pristine bonuses far before the level is over (she's 64 now). The xp for writs is making leveling so nice and fast. I would DEFNITELY not get that amount of xp for even level recipes alone. And another advantage? The quest xp you get for the writs DOES NOT TAKE YOUR VITALITY! So you stretch your vit even further.She's gone from level 61 to 64 and still has 69% vitality (started with 100%). That's insane.</blockquote>I agree, well said. My partner is a carpenter and he went from lvl 64 to 67 this morning. Every writ run gave him about 20% exp, so 5 writs and he had a level. The items he created in one writ gave approx 6.5% xp and he then got 13.5% xp in quest/writ xp. To be honest, I'm tempted to say this is too fast. I still think this change is a good change, and I'm sure Domino will look at the numbers and perhaps tweak them a bit.

Jesdyr

08-01-2007, 01:39 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lishara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone complaining about this XP being too low is insane. I actually thought I would see people complaining that the XP for writs were too high and trivializing leveling!Consider this, you still get the 7-10% xp at the high levels too. So maybe it doesn't make much difference at the lower levels, but at the higher levels it is huge. Even leveling my jeweler, she runs out of pristine bonuses far before the level is over (she's 64 now). The xp for writs is making leveling so nice and fast. I would DEFNITELY not get that amount of xp for even level recipes alone. And another advantage? The quest xp you get for the writs DOES NOT TAKE YOUR VITALITY! So you stretch your vit even further.She's gone from level 61 to 64 and still has 69% vitality (started with 100%). That's insane.</blockquote>I agree, well said. My partner is a carpenter and he went from lvl 64 to 67 this morning. Every writ run gave him about 20% exp, so 5 writs and he had a level. The items he created in one writ gave approx 6.5% xp and he then got 13.5% xp in quest/writ xp. To be honest, I'm tempted to say this is too fast. I still think this change is a good change, and I'm sure Domino will look at the numbers and perhaps tweak them a bit. </blockquote> 3rd ... For a carp at 66 to get 20% a level for a rushorder .. that means .. 2hrs total to hit 70 (yes I finish carp rushorders in less than 6 min)

Eridu

08-01-2007, 01:45 PM

Factoring in the experience earned from grinding out lower con recipes is fallacious. This change was meant to normalize leveling. The current meagre, aye meagre, bonus in no way approaches what Sages or even Alchemists and Jewelers can pull off. Every timesink lessening change has done nothing but make this a more enjoyable game, with the population level reflecting that. I'd say most MMORPG players at this point aren't convinced of Timesinking for the sake of continued playtime as being necessary for their continuing to play a game. Only a certain kind of established player at this point, or a dull dull game designer would tend to tote that line. Add to that people afraid of losing the Andrew Carnegie Broker [Removed for Content] game. That's not a good enough reason to rule out the sane adjustment of less enjoyable, often outright ennervating, elements of a game's mechanics aka nerfed. The continuing mess that is harvesting (and it that it's the human element, the player base that's the real mess) makes normalising the various crafts Raw Component use vital to the game's health. Because it's not the time pushing counters or the number of makes as such that's truly the issue with this - it's the raw components necessary to get those levels. Since instanced harvesting or some mechanic that makes the cherry picker flying through after you've cleared all the wood - the Go Boom and Die mechanic - isn't anywhere on the horizon, normalizing, ie lessenig the sheer amount of raws is a needful thing. Timesinking is unimaginative game design, being a Timesink partisan is Griefer. Neither belong in a game at all.

Eriol

08-01-2007, 02:02 PM

<cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote>No no and no! This LU never promised to close the exp gap between various classes. If you choose to read the update notes and/or any of Lady Domino's statements as a promise to let you get same exp as sages per same time frame then it is your prerogative but you definitely are miss-reading it. The only thing Domino promised was to make the gap little less. And she definitely delivered on it.</blockquote> Umm, not exactly. As Calthine linked earlier, reading the <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1022" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"></a>: <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1022" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">GU 37 Tradeskill Preview</a> wrote: <blockquote>All this will do is give other classes the option of approaching sage leveling speed</blockquote>Now if you call "way way slower than sages, but marginally better than before" the same as "approaching sage levelling speed" then you must work for the government and draft press releases for them. By "approaching sage levelling speed" I'd say that means at LEAST 3/4 of the speed. In my 40s on my armorer, it's less than HALF the exp from doing writs than if I had pure discoveries (I did it both ways, same # of combines, same level of items). From pure discoveries, 6 items, got 30% of a level. From a rush order with 6 items, got 15% exp. Purely 6 combines, 10% exp. So normally I level 1/3 as fast as a sage, now i'm levelling 1/2 as fast as a sage. Still pretty painful, though I guess when you're starving, you should take whatever you can get.

Ronin SpoilSpot

08-01-2007, 02:08 PM

<cite>Eridu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Factoring in the experience earned from grinding out lower con recipes is fallacious. This change was meant to normalize leveling. The current meagre, aye meagre, bonus in no way approaches what Sages or even Alchemists and Jewelers can pull off. </blockquote> "Lower con" recipies for the highest available writ are at most four levels lower (for lvl x9 writs only), and usually less. The experience gained from them are almost the same as for even con recipies. The "meager" bonus is ... impressive! It's like christmas! I can give a carpenter in T7 a level in 25 minutes, tops. Five writs. It used to be ~17 writs. And only a third of the xp counts towards vitality, so I can keep going and going like the energizer bunny! Even if a sage doing pristines can match the XP gain per recipy (about 3.3% per recipy done), he can't match the speed, and he doesn't have the vitality to keep up for more than about a level and a half. Carpenters have the most efficient arts, so doing a recipy in 30 seconds isn't uncommon, with 45 seconds as an average without trying hard. Mind you, I'm not complaining. But my first guess was that this was a bug, and I was going to get all I could from it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /RS - happy T7 carpenter too

Eridu

08-01-2007, 02:56 PM

I'm crafting all nine crafts so I'm aware of how the writs work and how far a sage can go on their recipes. You're description of the assigned make's levels is overly generous. The non pristine experience may seem close between even con and lower con recipes because well the experience gain for non-first time makes is so low. Yet those differences, often close to half as much, multiply over the course of the level. That being said, Time on recipe or level isn't the issue, it's the raw usage. Lessening the enormous amounts of raw components which say woodworking or carpentry required is all the writ experience bonus meant to me. The closer woodworkers or carpenters for example get to the sage's usage of raws, the less I have to deal with horse riding, speed tooling, cherry picking wasters of my time. The more I run into THEM the longer the interval between when I bother logging into an otherwise fairly enjoyable game. It's not about the time as such, which I believe I pointed out; it's about the overall raws used to get the level. The writ experience bonus isn't a Christmas gift, feels more like an empty promise.

Jesdyr

08-01-2007, 03:03 PM

<cite>Eridu wrote:</cite><blockquote> The more I run into THEM the longer the interval between when I bother logging into an otherwise fairly enjoyable game. </blockquote> If you dont enjoy it .. stop doing it .. Really .. what do you want .. Do you want to be given instant lvl 70 crafting ? The change is a good one. If you dont like the change dont start doing writs. Continue how you were going and pretend the change was never made. If you were doing writs anyway, this is a huge improvement and you should stop complaining.

Lishara

08-01-2007, 04:21 PM

I have also played all 9 crafts, so I understand the differences. Trust me, I have shelved my woodworker and provi both at 63 for months now because I dreaded the grind (not to mention the whole xegonberry thing for the provi). I will now bring them back out of retirement with this change. Sure, the scholars can still get more pristine bonuses, but the xp from the writs *will* shorten the gap by a ton. With my jeweler in the beginning of the 60s I could get maybe 30% of my level off pristine bonuses then each white recipe would give about 1%, so that's still alot of grinding. With the writs, as I said above, she is now flying through the 60s. (though I did finally run out of vitality at level 66)I agree with the above poster who thought that the xp might be too high. My gut reaction when I first started doing them was 'Dang, I better level all my crafters before this gets nerfed.'

DeathRider69

08-01-2007, 04:27 PM

Well to the OP I know that I was getting 10% on my carpenter and around 8-10% on my woodworker. The wife was getting 8-10% on her tailor. That was great for me in the low 60s getting a whole 2 recipes per level. I cranked off a whole stack of writes (which I was doing anyway) and get 2 whole levels in the same time I would have only gotten 1 without the bonus. I have not tried my sage or alchemist but since both get an avg of 20 recipes per level the bonus always knocks me up a level without any real grinding. I think it is so cool that I might actually finish leveling the armorer from the 40s. I stopped because I got tired of making 60-80 gloves at 1-2 mins per pair to just go vendor trash and harvest for a couple days to get enough stuff to make more. Now at least the fuel costs are covered and the pittance of gold per sets of writs is almost covering buying the raws over spending days harvesting. Plus hey ANY XP from doing writs is MUCH better than the XP for vendor trashing the same items.

Agaxiq

08-01-2007, 05:15 PM

Before I quit over a year ago I had a 70 tailor, a 54 sage, a 60 armorer, a 47 carpenter, a 36 prov, and a 32ish alch. Those characters are now gone. I came back and didn't like what LU24 did to crafting, and disliked the excessive use of raws and the removal of subs. I've hardly crafted at all in the last 8 months. With the tradeskill writs giving tradeskill XP, I will be building up crafters in every profession bar none. Its simply awesome. One of our level 68 provisioners got to 70 last night in a few short hours. It took me at least a week or two to get from 68 to 70 with my tailor, waiting on vitality, fighting for dens etc... I just hope they don't nerf the xp gain. Its great how it is, and I can't wait to come back. agressiv

oldsnowy

08-01-2007, 05:30 PM

Well I only have two TSkill - WSmith & Tailor - to get to 70 for a full set. This Nerf is awesome - 5 writs for a Level, instead of 16 or 17, and Vitality lasts longer! At 61 - 62, my WS is getting 11% Exp per writ. My Tailor, at 67-68, gets 13% consistently. My only minor gripe at first, and a very dog-in-the-manger one it is too, was that everyone will be TSkilling, and the market will fall. But then I rarely sell outside the Guild anyway, so what the heck. If it encourages more people to TSkill, and more to play EQ2, then it's got to be a good thing.

Eridu

08-01-2007, 05:32 PM

JesDer wrote: <blockquote> If you dont enjoy it .. stop doing it .. Really .. what do you want .. Do you want to be given instant lvl 70 crafting ? The change is a good one. If you dont like the change dont start doing writs. Continue how you were going and pretend the change was never made. If you were doing writs anyway, this is a huge improvement and you should stop complaining. </blockquote> um gee I don't log on after all appears to be my sentiment. Expecting "closer to Sage" and commenting on it isn't expecting to be instantly 70, and is silly to try to compare it so, and my subscription allows me to "complain" all I like to thank ya kindly ya board warrior guy. Fortunately I'm not troubling myself to post here about this for your approval or endorsement. I'm posting so that the Dev's see my "feedback" Would never of occured to me not to do something I don't enjoy...gee I'll have a try .. oh wait I already do...thanks for the advice though. Sheez

Lishara

08-01-2007, 05:34 PM

<cite>oldsnowy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I only have two TSkill - WSmith & Tailor - to get to 70 for a full set. This Nerf is awesome - 5 writs for a Level, instead of 16 or 17, and Vitality lasts longer! At 61 - 62, my WS is getting 11% Exp per writ. My Tailor, at 67-68, gets 13% consistently. My only minor gripe at first, and a very dog-in-the-manger one it is too, was that everyone will be TSkilling, and the market will fall. But then I rarely sell outside the Guild anyway, so what the heck. If it encourages more people to TSkill, and more to play EQ2, then it's got to be a good thing. </blockquote> I dunno. I thought about this, and honestly the people who hate crafting will still hate crafting. They won't really have any extra incentive to start crafting. It might help the market a bit. Get rid of those people who dump their grinding crap on the market for 10 sp above vendor buy bank (WHY?!?!?!?! I have never understood this). If they grind on writs they make more of a profit than that and more xp. It probably still won't stop the botters dumping their crap on market, because I don't think the bot programs can really handle the writs. But I think overall this will help, not hurt.

Agaxiq

08-01-2007, 05:57 PM

<cite>oldsnowy wrote:</cite><blockquote>My only minor gripe at first, and a very dog-in-the-manger one it is too, was that everyone will be TSkilling, and the market will fall. </blockquote> The market is already pretty rough; I never made stuff to sell on the broker since I've come back because the profit margin is so low now. It would purely be a commission thing, or a guild thing, since people who never want to tradeskill still won't even after this change. Once Tier 8 hits, the demand will surge regardless of how many 70 crafters there are. agressiv

ke'la

08-01-2007, 06:23 PM

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Thaych wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's actually a good idea; compare adventuring writs to TS writs...as they were before the changeAdventurer:You get the full amount of XP per mob. Tradeskilling:You get XP bonus for making the first pristine item. All after that are less XP. Check your Websters. A Bonus is a value added, not a baseline. The first has extra, all the rest are the norm.If both people have 100% vitality and are earning double XP, the Adventurer earns more XP per kill than the tradeskiller does per Item (after the first pristine is created)False. At 69 Carpenter, I get about .75% exp from making a level 65 Strongbox. When I was a 69 Guardian I did not get .75% exp for every Basilisk (level 67) I killed in Bonemire grinding writsXP Advantage - AdventurerIn Adventuring writs, you get a choice between solo and heroicIn Tradeskilling writs, you get a choice between normal, and rush job(note: not mentioning the lower level or lower quality writs)Adventurers choosing Heroic will earn more XP per mob than the Tradeskiller will if doing a rush job because you likely get no "first time pristine" bonus.Adventurers doing heroic writs will earn more status than a tradeskiller (IIRC comparing highest level sage writ to writ for basilisks in Bonemire. I think both writs con blue to me, and award about 20 more status on the Adv side)Adventurers killing 12 basilisks can do so FAR faster than a tradeskiller making 4 copies of 3 Items. I can pull 5 or 6 basilisks at a pop so it takes like 6 minutes per basilisk writ compared to 12 or so for Rush OrdersAdvantage - AdventurerWrit stacking allows for greater status for time spent, true. For a baseline Adventurer (For the sake of discussion here, I exclude Druids and Wizards because they can cut their travel drastically where 20 classes can not) Say 5 minutes to run around Qeynos picking up your 2 Basilisk writs from the Mages and Guard and getting back to the docks of QH. Then bell to Nek. Zone to EL. Run to spires. Be generous and call it a 2 minute wait at the spires. You're now up to 8-9 minutes from start to zoning into Bonemire. Now kill your mobs. The Qeynos writs call for killing 20. Call it 15 minutes to finish it if no one else is killing them and you can just sweep through them . 23 minutes to get about 16900 status. I can do 3 69 hard timed writs in that time. I'll stipulate that porting classes will do much better, but do you want to compare the rank and file, or the 17% that are special? Ok you added travel time so now TSers get to add THERE prep time. For a 35 Carp writ(the higher the lvl iteam the more materials used) I have to make 6 on the Rush order iteams each iteam requiring about 15 harvests of verious types, so I have to have about 90 total harvests to do 1 writ, now as I have to goto the SAME PLACE you do for your writ I will use your travel itme 8 mins, add to that the 2 or 3 hours of harvestind to get enough Raws for ~ 10 writs so that works out to about 12mins of harvesting(on average, if you harvest for just one writ it would accually be ALOT more then this most of the time do to the RNG) per writ...assuming there is noone else harvesting at the same time, or that someone has been there and all that are available are shrubs. So now we are at 20mins and we HAVE NOT EVEN STARTED THE WRITE YET, Rush orders are timed and take a Max of 8mins or you Fail, lose all Raws and some of the Coin(from the fuel) you invested in that writ, so lets say you succed, well that takes about 5mins or so and I get at 35 ~3,000 status in 25mins/writ...so who has it easier, oh and I get the cost of my fuel back and maybe 5g profit, while you can easily get 20g on 1 writ run... if you are unlucky. EDIT ADD: And no Adventurer is going to do Heroic writs as fast as non-heroic. It's a completely imappropriate comparison with regard to a difficult order. You get more status faster with difficult if you are capable of doing them. The reverse is true with Heroic writs unless you add other players to help you, which obviously grants far greater status rewards, but then voids the entire comparison by playing group vs. soloIn solo Adventurer writs:Each solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a body lootEach solo mob you kill has x% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestIn heroic Adventurer writs:Each solo mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a body lootEach solo mob you kill has x+Y% chance to drop a small chest, a treasured, ornate, or exquisite chestNow let's take the premis above and completely disregard it, k?.Let's say, for example, you kill those basilisks in the bonemire for the writ. There's what? like 12 to kill? If only 4 body drops occur and you don't die doing the writ, you'll earn about 4-5G per writ. You've expended nothing more than food & drink (same as the crafter)Crafters receive the cost of the fuels (and a small pittance after each step is completed, that only equals the payout for an adventurer writ where no chest dropped...just body drops)Advantage - AdventurerTradeskillers end up working longer than Adventurers on same type writ. (non rush and rush job) FoI is now far more rare than it used to be so crafter's chance of getting a rare has diminished to the point that there's far less chance of getting a rare combine than you adventurers getting a Treasured or better chest. Case in point; My dirge ran to Zek to kill orcs for writ and on the first green down arrow solo mob he dropped a master chest with multiple items. Master Spell, Loam PeltAdvantage - Adventurer </blockquote> You want to make your argument based on a sampling of 1 extremely lucky drop? Just checking.</blockquote>

Liyle

08-01-2007, 06:57 PM

I think 7% is fantastic. As I recall book quests like "3 Keys" gave 10% (at least back when I did them) and that was a major effort compared to a quick writ, so I was actually surprised to see as much as 7%. I thought it would be much less. I am still hoping that the difficulty of the writs will more closely align with your current level, as city writs do, so that the hardest ones are white (at least) and not fading into blue as you progress through the sections of the tier.

Illmarr

08-01-2007, 07:31 PM

Ke'La. Jalathan already pointed this out and I already said my mea culpa (Apologies) for omitting the harvesting time, but thanks for pointing it out again for anyone who missed it the first time.Now is it 2 or 3 hours? That makes a large difference. for 2 hours to harvest enough to do 10 writs, you're looking at 128 minutes divied by 10 writs, or 12.8 minutes spent harvesting. Now add in 7 minutes per writ actual craft time, so you're at 19.8 minutes. If you cannot reliably complete a rush order, you should not be doing them if trying to min/max your return on investment. There are non-timed writs for those not as adept at tradeskilling. At 3 hours you're looking at 25.8 minutes incluidng harvesting time. Your mileage may vary in tiers under T7. I was only speaking about T7 writs, both adventure and tradeskill. Since I don't recall how long it takes to finish lower tier adventure writs, I cannot and do not include them for consideration in my comments. I wish you well

Illmarr

08-01-2007, 07:37 PM

Oh and I was only speaking on T7 because that was what the post I responded to spoke of. T4 I'm sure as different from T7 as apples and oranges are

ke'la

08-01-2007, 08:03 PM

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Ke'La. Jalathan already pointed this out and I already said my mea culpa (Apologies) for omitting the harvesting time, but thanks for pointing it out again for anyone who missed it the first time.Now is it 2 or 3 hours? That makes a large difference. for 2 hours to harvest enough to do 10 writs, you're looking at 128 minutes divied by 10 writs, or 12.8 minutes spent harvesting. Now add in 7 minutes per writ actual craft time, so you're at 19.8 minutes. If you cannot reliably complete a rush order, you should not be doing them if trying to min/max your return on investment. There are non-timed writs for those not as adept at tradeskilling. At 3 hours you're looking at 25.8 minutes incluidng harvesting time. Your mileage may vary in tiers under T7. I was only speaking about T7 writs, both adventure and tradeskill. Since I don't recall how long it takes to finish lower tier adventure writs, I cannot and do not include them for consideration in my comments. I wish you well</blockquote>First off when it comes to harvest times...well it verys depending on if the RNG likes you that day or not, but 2 hours for enough raws for 10 T4 Writs is about right if the RNG likes you so 120mins gathering divide by 10 writs is about 12min a writ(wich is what I went with because I wanted a min time to do a writ) also I figured on about 5mins to complete the rush order wich rewards more status, as like you said if you can't finnish a rush order don't do it. So that is 17mins not counting the Travel time to and from the location. It also does not count the fact that you need coin to get the Raws required to do the writs(though this is refunded), also there is the risk of losing your raws and fuel if the Ring gets unhappy with you and you don't get a pristine, something you don't have to worry about with Adventure writs, infact unless you are taking writs well above your ablities(wich means your not grinding writs but doing writs while grinding lvls) there really is no change of accually losing money while doing an adventure writ and infact the profit is Far greater, then on a TS Writ.

Vonotar

08-03-2007, 07:07 AM

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1022" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">GU 37 Tradeskill Preview</a> wrote: <blockquote>All this will do is give other classes the option of approaching sage leveling speed</blockquote>Now if you call "way way slower than sages, but marginally better than before" the same as "approaching sage levelling speed" then you must work for the government and draft press releases for them. By "approaching sage levelling speed" I'd say that means at LEAST 3/4 of the speed. In my 40s on my armorer, it's less than HALF the exp from doing writs than if I had pure discoveries (I did it both ways, same # of combines, same level of items). From pure discoveries, 6 items, got 30% of a level. From a rush order with 6 items, got 15% exp. Purely 6 combines, 10% exp. So normally I level 1/3 as fast as a sage, now i'm levelling 1/2 as fast as a sage. Still pretty painful, though I guess when you're starving, you should take whatever you can get. </blockquote>OK. Assuming (big assumption) that a Sage the same level as your Armorer would have the same pristine xp as you... Pristine Discovery per Item = 5% of level Normal XP per Item = 1.6% of level TS Writ XP per Item = 2.5% of level Therefore: Sage: (100% divided by 5%) With the sages ridiculous number of spells available you can grind 100% with around 20 spell scrolls (based on your pristine disco xp) Armorer: Before GU changes (6 times 5% + 42 times 1.6%) With typically 6 new items per recipe book you grind 30% of your level with pristine disco xp, the other 70% grinding the same items over and over, total 48 items. Sage is leveling 140% quicker than you. After GU changes (6 times 5% + 28 times 2.5%) With typically 6 new items per recipe book you grind 30% of your level with pristine disco xp, the other 70% doing TS writs, total 34 items. Sage is leveling 70% quicker than you. The gap between yourself and the sage has closed by a half. Notice that these calculations are based on your own figures now say thank you to the nice dev.

Tokam

08-03-2007, 07:17 AM

This is not a cry for a nerf, merely an observation of how quickly it now appears to be to level toons post lu 37. The following are from my carpenters log file.(1186131229)[Fri Aug 03 09:53:49 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 68 Carpenter. (1186133244)[Fri Aug 03 10:27:24 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 69 Carpenter.(1186135273)[Fri Aug 03 11:01:13 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 70 Carpenter.This was without crafting the new items at each tier to get an xp bonus (although I did make some of them as writs required) I had vitality up to 69.5 but was using no ts xp potion. Again not a shout for a nerf perse (it is right that we should get an xp bonus for our writs), just was wondering if leveling is supposed to be this quick?Edit: I should perhaps have said that Breeder is a level 2 Zerker with a mighty power pool of 21.

Vonotar

08-03-2007, 07:22 AM

<cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is not a cry for a nerf, merely an observation of how quickly it now appears to be to level toons post lu 37. The following are from my carpenters log file.(1186131229)[Fri Aug 03 09:53:49 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 68 Carpenter. (1186133244)[Fri Aug 03 10:27:24 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 69 Carpenter.(1186135273)[Fri Aug 03 11:01:13 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 70 Carpenter.This was without crafting the new items at each tier to get an xp bonus (although I did make some of them as writs required) I had vitality up to 69.5 but was using no ts xp potion. Again not a shout for a nerf perse (it is right that we should get an xp bonus for our writs), just was wondering if leveling is supposed to be this quick?</blockquote> Judging by posts from other people, Sages level even faster without touching writs (solely by getting disco for pristines). So the answer is Yes, your supposed to be levelling that quick.

Deson

08-03-2007, 07:32 AM

Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is not a cry for a nerf, merely an observation of how quickly it now appears to be to level toons post lu 37. The following are from my carpenters log file.(1186131229)[Fri Aug 03 09:53:49 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 68 Carpenter. (1186133244)[Fri Aug 03 10:27:24 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 69 Carpenter.(1186135273)[Fri Aug 03 11:01:13 2007] Breeder gained a tradeskill level and is now a level 70 Carpenter.This was without crafting the new items at each tier to get an xp bonus (although I did make some of them as writs required) I had vitality up to 69.5 but was using no ts xp potion. Again not a shout for a nerf perse (it is right that we should get an xp bonus for our writs), just was wondering if leveling is supposed to be this quick?</blockquote> Judging by posts from other people, Sages level even faster without touching writs (solely by getting disco for pristines). So the answer is Yes, your supposed to be levelling that quick. </blockquote>Having done that I can say that sages most certainly do not level that fast.

Tokam

08-03-2007, 07:48 AM

If it stays like this I will be getting both my provisioner and carp to 80 on the day of RoK release, easily. Im gonna see how far I can get with an alchemist this weekend, always wanted one of those <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Naglfar

08-03-2007, 08:01 AM

Wrist XP is another easy-mode nerf...If they wanted to make xp speed the same for all crafters, the easier solution would have been to get rid of first pristine xp, and increase a little bit the xp / craft.The amout of xp earned for a T7 writ is insane. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

XAvengerX

08-03-2007, 08:15 AM

Naglfar@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>The amout of xp earned for a T7 writ is insane. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> I agree totally, 14% xp for a T7 tradeskill writ when turned in. I know thats how much it is because i was watching my tradeskill XP bar while doing writs yesterday. Combine this with pristine bonuses and you can burn a few of the higher lvls in no time at all.The XP earned from a writ isnt influenced by your vitality, at least it wasnt for me because every time i turned in the Vitality arrow would move with the XP bonus indicating no vitality was consumed. Levelling tradeskills like this is insanely fast and easy ... <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Condar Tarsonia

08-03-2007, 03:33 PM

It's been a bit since I was last able to post (argh, work), but I was able to test the changes myself.So let me begin by saying thank you Domino! The changes are great.What I find really amusing is how the argument has more or less changed from 'This sux0rs' to 'This is TOO easy.' If anything, I agree with those who think the reward needs to be toned down a wee bit, for the sole fact I think too many crafters will be reaching 70 too fast, and it will reduce the feeling of accomplishment, in my opinion. The price gouging (on some goods) may slowly come to an end, however, so it may be a nice tradeoff!Also, on the whole Sage leveling issue - I still fail to see the point. I have a 70 Alchemist, 68 Sage, and just started a Woodworker (30 I think). You know what's funny? The Sage has, obviously and with no dispute whatsoever, taken the LEAST amount of time to level. The Woodworker, at 30, has been able to make more money simply selling common arrows and other items like totems and imbued common weapons - noone buys Apprentice 4's, unless it's a low tier they're speeding through, a worthless spell they want a cheap upgrade to, or during a new expansion. I expect this to remain true, and only become better, throughout the tiers. So I fail to see the argument of those complaining that Sage's are super-uber-fast-levelers - is your goal in crafting/EverQuest/life to simply reach 'the end'? I know mine isn't - it's to actually make some form of profit.To each their own I guess <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Obadiah

08-05-2007, 06:42 PM

I didn't do any of these until this weekend. I have a Carpenter who was level 66, and is now 70. In my opinion, 4 writs (nothing else) to get from 69 to 70 is a bit extreme. Said Carpenter is fairly poor. He doesn't get played much. So another toon mailed him the 3 moonstones he needed to make his level 69 rare recipes for discovery XP. The Carpenter checked the mail in between each writ, and dinged 70 before the moonstones arrived. I'm just sayin' that's fast XP, that's all.

Maroger

08-06-2007, 12:30 PM

I think we need at least one additional writs.I believe currently we get new selections of writs at : x0, x4, x9.Going from x4 to x9 is way too big a jump to make the TS XP gained very useful as opposed to grinding making the highest level product you have. It would be nice if we could have a set of writs at say x6 --

Ronin SpoilSpot

08-06-2007, 04:16 PM

<cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote>The following are from my carpenters log file.</blockquote>... I looked it up in my log, and can concur. It is that fast. From 65 to 67 carpenter in 45 minutes (lvl 19 berserker on the side). Then I had to take a br eak, but I got 68 later that night, and 69 the day after, again with five writs per level (~25 min each). I can see that I won't reach 40000 Ironforge faction before lvl 70 as I had hoped <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> When I heard there would be xp bonus for writs, I had hoped for up to a 50% bonus on top of the crafting xp. I hadn't thought it would be 200%, as it is in tier 7. My only lvl 70 crafter, the armorer, took about a week per level at the end, spending about one hour each night restocking the broker. That was a decent speed for the effort. This, I th ink, is slightly over the top. /RS 'Carpentry FTW'

Gorhauth

08-07-2007, 04:37 PM

Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>I didn't do any of these until this weekend. I have a Carpenter who was level 66, and is now 70. In my opinion, 4 writs (nothing else) to get from 69 to 70 is a bit extreme. Said Carpenter is fairly poor. He doesn't get played much. So another toon mailed him the 3 moonstones he needed to make his level 69 rare recipes for discovery XP. The Carpenter checked the mail in between each writ, and dinged 70 before the moonstones arrived. I'm just sayin' that's fast XP, that's all. </blockquote>At level 38, the woodworker writs get a whole 12% xp / writ - including combines. After the pristine bonus, I was at 13% into the level. They might be broker for either 1) carpenters or 2) higher levels, but they don't seem to be around the mid levels.

Obadiah

08-07-2007, 05:02 PM

<cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>I didn't do any of these until this weekend. I have a Carpenter who was level 66, and is now 70. In my opinion, 4 writs (nothing else) to get from 69 to 70 is a bit extreme. Said Carpenter is fairly poor. He doesn't get played much. So another toon mailed him the 3 moonstones he needed to make his level 69 rare recipes for discovery XP. The Carpenter checked the mail in between each writ, and dinged 70 before the moonstones arrived. I'm just sayin' that's fast XP, that's all. </blockquote>At level 38, the woodworker writs get a whole 12% xp / writ - including combines. After the pristine bonus, I was at 13% into the level. They might be broker for either 1) carpenters or 2) higher levels, but they don't seem to be around the mid levels. </blockquote>No, Gorhauth, youo're right. That doesn't sound broken at all. Sounds more appropriate, or, IMO, more like your numbers are what I should have seen and vice versa. I wonder though, since you should get a new writ available to you at 39 . . . I wonder how much that will be worth. In retrospect I'm sure that's part of why level 69 Carpenter was so fast . . . new, even con writ. Also. . . curious . . . I only do the Rush Jobs, so the non-timed ones might be worth more or less. . . are the Rush Orders the ones you are doing?

Lilj

08-07-2007, 06:06 PM

Very different numbers are reported, in general it seems as Tier7 gives around 10-14% xp for writ completion. A lvl 35 carpenter reported he got about 10% for writ completion (I don't know how much xp he got from making the items), which is very different from the Gorhauth's 12% for writ+combines and both are in T4. In tier 6 I have tried provisioner, woodworker and alchemist and the writs there gave 7-9% for completion. All the writs I have tried have been rush orders. I still like the idea of writs giving tradeskil xp, but I also think some professions are getting too much and some levels are too fast (the top example is the T7 carpenter that could get a level in 25 minutes). So good idea <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But perhaps it needs some tweaking? I am definitely not talking about removing the xp again, it's a nice help for many professions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

dartie

08-07-2007, 06:36 PM

This thread appears to be leaning towards my own interpretation of writ XP, which is that the bonus appears to get further off kilter the HIGHER one goes. As others have already indicated, you get significantly more xp for a T7 writ than for a T4 writ, which makes leveling by writs in the top tier go *much* faster than doing so in the middle tiers.I think it's something that requires attention from the devs. Maybe it doesn't need immediate attention, but if this weird "scaling" system is still in place for RoK, people will be going from L70 to L80 on about 35 rush orders (or maybe closer to 25, since the bonus at L79 is going to be HUGE).For the record:My L63 jeweler just got an 11% bonus for a L60 rush order.My L43 provvy got a 6.5% bonus for a L40 rush order.For T4 and below, there might be some merit to the argument that xp is quicker if you skip the writs to focus on recipes at your current level, but once you hit T5, that appears to start changing. By the time you reach T7, the change is drastic.

Besual

08-08-2007, 04:11 AM

I did some writs with my sage. At level 42 (no vita) I did a rush order (level 40 one): 6 combines (no pristine bonus) gave ~5.5%. Turning in the quest gave ~5%. Total ~10.5%. Next run about the same XP. Got ~3% from doing level 42 recipes for pristine bonus.

Tokam

08-08-2007, 07:42 AM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Very different numbers are reported, in general it seems as Tier7 gives around 10-14% xp for writ completion. A lvl 35 carpenter reported he got about 10% for writ completion (I don't know how much xp he got from making the items), which is very different from the Gorhauth's 12% for writ+combines and both are in T4. In tier 6 I have tried provisioner, woodworker and alchemist and the writs there gave 7-9% for completion. All the writs I have tried have been rush orders. I still like the idea of writs giving tradeskil xp, but I also think some professions are getting too much and some levels are too fast (the top example is the T7 carpenter that could get a level in 25 minutes). So good idea <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But perhaps it needs some tweaking? I am definitely not talking about removing the xp again, it's a nice help for many professions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Yeah, of course the lower level writs provide you with less xp. Im guessing this was done to 'balance' the higher base rate of xp you get per item at the lower levels. The point is that if you hit 50 (in any of the professions), and have a free afternoon / evening, you will be at lvl 70 before you go to bed. Again, im not getting into wheather or not I think this is a bad thing, I just dont think it was properly tested by domino before implementation, and I dont think she grasped just how much we are going to kick the [Removed for Content] out of this new system to level quickly. All of a sudden im not worried in the slightest about having numerous crafters to level to 80 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Calthine

08-08-2007, 12:18 PM

<cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yeah, of course the lower level writs provide you with less xp. Im guessing this was done to 'balance' the higher base rate of xp you get per item at the lower levels. The point is that if you hit 50 (in any of the professions), and have a free afternoon / evening, you will be at lvl 70 before you go to bed. </blockquote> And remember that the lower Tiers take less XP than the higher ones do.

Gorhauth

08-08-2007, 05:55 PM

Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Also. . . curious . . . I only do the Rush Jobs, so the non-timed ones might be worth more or less. . . are the Rush Orders the ones you are doing? </blockquote> Those are the rush order writs. I don't see the point in doing the work order ones.

Maroger

08-08-2007, 07:00 PM

<cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Also. . . curious . . . I only do the Rush Jobs, so the non-timed ones might be worth more or less. . . are the Rush Orders the ones you are doing? </blockquote> Those are the rush order writs. I don't see the point in doing the work order ones. </blockquote>I can never find the recipes fast enough so I never do the rush orders -- the recipe books is such a mess trying to find things so I just do the regular writs.

Calthine

08-08-2007, 07:54 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Also. . . curious . . . I only do the Rush Jobs, so the non-timed ones might be worth more or less. . . are the Rush Orders the ones you are doing? </blockquote> Those are the rush order writs. I don't see the point in doing the work order ones. </blockquote>I can never find the recipes fast enough so I never do the rush orders -- the recipe books is such a mess trying to find things so I just do the regular writs. </blockquote> Use your search. Need arrows? Have the right Tier filtered in and type "arrow". Or in T7, just "adam" (adamantine). Bam. instant recipe.

Tokam

08-08-2007, 08:14 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yeah, of course the lower level writs provide you with less xp. Im guessing this was done to 'balance' the higher base rate of xp you get per item at the lower levels. The point is that if you hit 50 (in any of the professions), and have a free afternoon / evening, you will be at lvl 70 before you go to bed. </blockquote> And remember that the lower Tiers take less XP than the higher ones do. </blockquote>If you read that again Ms Pirate, we are both saying the same thing.

Calthine

08-08-2007, 08:20 PM

<cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yeah, of course the lower level writs provide you with less xp. Im guessing this was done to 'balance' the higher base rate of xp you get per item at the lower levels. The point is that if you hit 50 (in any of the professions), and have a free afternoon / evening, you will be at lvl 70 before you go to bed. </blockquote> And remember that the lower Tiers take less XP than the higher ones do. </blockquote>If you read that again Ms Pirate, we are both saying the same thing. </blockquote>Yeah, but mine was easier to understand <img src="http://img200.exs.cx/img200/7217/poke5ri.gif" border="0"> 'S all good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tokam

08-08-2007, 08:26 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yeah, of course the lower level writs provide you with less xp. Im guessing this was done to 'balance' the higher base rate of xp you get per item at the lower levels. The point is that if you hit 50 (in any of the professions), and have a free afternoon / evening, you will be at lvl 70 before you go to bed. </blockquote> And remember that the lower Tiers take less XP than the higher ones do. </blockquote>If you read that again Ms Pirate, we are both saying the same thing. </blockquote>Yeah, but mine was easier to understand <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Oh ive just realised something. Its late, and Im drunk.

Maroger

08-08-2007, 08:49 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Also. . . curious . . . I only do the Rush Jobs, so the non-timed ones might be worth more or less. . . are the Rush Orders the ones you are doing? </blockquote> Those are the rush order writs. I don't see the point in doing the work order ones. </blockquote>I can never find the recipes fast enough so I never do the rush orders -- the recipe books is such a mess trying to find things so I just do the regular writs. </blockquote> Use your search. Need arrows? Have the right Tier filtered in and type "arrow". Or in T7, just "adam" (adamantine). Bam. instant recipe. </blockquote>I have never figured how to filter anything in that awful recipe book. Any it takes time to type in the spell name to do a search (I am not a fast typer which seems to be a prerequisite to do these(

Illmarr

08-08-2007, 08:54 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Also. . . curious . . . I only do the Rush Jobs, so the non-timed ones might be worth more or less. . . are the Rush Orders the ones you are doing? </blockquote> Those are the rush order writs. I don't see the point in doing the work order ones. </blockquote>I can never find the recipes fast enough so I never do the rush orders -- the recipe books is such a mess trying to find things so I just do the regular writs. </blockquote> Use your search. Need arrows? Have the right Tier filtered in and type "arrow". Or in T7, just "adam" (adamantine). Bam. instant recipe. </blockquote>I have never figured how to filter anything in that awful recipe book. Any it takes time to type in the spell name to do a search (I am not a fast typer which seems to be a prerequisite to do these( </blockquote>I'm a craftsman in real life (Tile and stone installer). I type using a quick hunt and peck utilizing 2 fingers on each hand and have to stare at the keyboard to do it. Type in the first 3 letters and either scroll to the bottom if your recipes sort low to high, or 99% of the time if they sort high to low your recipe will be right on top. I used this method doing Jeweler rush orders in T7 and had no issue at all aside from once accidently making an Adept 3 instead of an App 4, but that was user error, not a system mechanics issue

pointytail

08-14-2007, 04:44 AM

Having finally seen how much faster the XP off writ completion, (Rush Orders for me, in this case) I finally have my opinion about it. Least, for the T7 mid/upper writ range. That being it's too durn fast! <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thankfully, it looks like the amount granted is a bit more balanced in the lower tiers given the posts about the lower levels. I do not have a TSer in any of the lower levels and can not vouch anything about the XP gain. Took me 2 hours to take a 67.02% Jeweler to 70. Of that 2 hours, spent about 90 minutes of it actually working on Rush Orders. Started with 100% Vitality and had enough to easily reach 70. I know I am not accounting for harvesting times, as some people have brought up, and the cost of buying materials vs harvesting was minimal to me for my server at the time (Pelts being the most expensive, I bet, at about 20s a pelt [I'm guessing, haven't actually seen what they cost]. Rarely used them during the Rush Orders though.). Plus, the money from the Rush Order probably easily covered those costs if I did buy all my materials. Numbers and such that I took down: 67 - About 2% into level, 5 x4 Rush Orders successfully completed (Needed 2-3% more to ding after completing the 5 x4 ROs.), 1 67 Pristine combine to complete level - 33 minutes - 9:09PM to 9:47PM (5 or 6 minutes spent reporting/petitioning plat seller between RO#1 and RO#2. Got hit right after completing RO#1) 68 - Next to nothing into the level, 5 x4 Rush Orders successfully completed (Needed 6-7% more to ding after completing the 5 x4 ROs.), 2 68 Pristines combines to complete level - 31 minutes 9:55PM to 10:26PM Completing level 69 was different as I had a few 1st Pristine Bonus while working the ROs. This differs from 67 and 68 as those two levels only used 1st Pristine Bonus to complete the level when completing a RO would push me excessively into the next level. 69 - Maybe .3 percent into the level, 4 x9 Rush Orders successfully completed (1st Pristine Bonus off of 2 L66 recipes and 3 L67 recipes. After completing the 4 x9 ROs, had about 5-6% left before dinging 70), 2 69 Pristines combines to complete level - 24 minutes 10:42PM to 11:06PM This is quite a difference from having to work a Jeweler through 10+ ROs (Or less, depending on the # of recipes. Yes, I know other classes will tell a completely different story when using non-scholars.) after getting all the 1st Pristine Bonus (Handcrafted, mind you. Didn't want to waste the time/money to use rares,) as I generally had to do for T7. Generally took at least an hour, hour and a half to grind through those levels. As for a suggestion to help curve this severe XP gain, maybe a cap of about 6% XP gain from ROs? I am unsure about the amount a WO will give and cannot give a suggestion about those. I'm suggesting a cap of about 6% XP gain from ROs because just making the 6 required item in T7 yields about 6%. The cap would then double the amount of XP gained. Also, if the declining return of XP gained from non-1st-Pristine-Bonus successful Pristine combines continues to lower as the tiers progress, (Basically saying we get just over 1% from a Pristine combine in T7 from a recipe that's already been pristined by you. If the XP gain follows the curve that's been set, we'll gain about 1% or a little less then 1% in T8, if I'm figuring this all correctly.) this will still yield at least (Or really close) to 10% per successful completion of a RO for the next tier (T8.) or two. And now, it's late, want to get to bed, thank you for reading all this and I can't believe I said/typed '... declining return of XP gained from non-1st-Pristine-Bonus successful Pristine combines...'.

Verky

08-14-2007, 05:55 AM

I love the change. Thanks again Domino!

Calthine

08-14-2007, 06:49 AM

I'm still chuckling.

Jesdyr

08-14-2007, 02:53 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still chuckling. </blockquote> I am sorry .. I just cant read this thread anymore ... what's so funny ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

hun_gover

08-14-2007, 04:49 PM

I think that the writs give too much XP and this bonus needs to be reduced, its been made far too easy to level. I feel the people who benefit least from this change are the players who have spent the most time crafting previously and are seeing their effort and achievements diminished. I choose to tradeskill in this game for the majority of my time when not raiding, but have been left disappointed with the way that crafting has been made less important, the sense of achievement and challenge eroded, and from way back the change to inter reliance between crafting classes that at one point made the whole crafting community the most vibrant in the game. This change is good for people who want to craft a little bit, not so good for those who love the Tradeskill aspect of the game, as their primary source of time spent gaming. From what i have seen, I could buy the raws off broker and do an entire tier in an evening, simply by doing rush orders, which is wrong imo.

TaleraRis

08-14-2007, 08:24 PM

Oakbark@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote> This change is good for people who want to craft a little bit, not so good for those who love the Tradeskill aspect of the game, as their primary source of time spent gaming. </blockquote>I would argue this point. I love the tradeskill aspect of this game. I have 9 crafters, 4 just at the cusp of Tier 7 now, 3 in Tier 6 still and progressing and a Tier 3 armorer because my guildmate has that covered. I was sad to see interdependence go, although I had disliked the idea of many classes dependent on the wares of a single one, and I was very sad to see subcombines go without even a halfway system considered. But I like this change. It has been very pleasant that my carpenter, woodworker and weaponsmith can keep a similar pace to my sage, jeweler, alchemist and tailor. I don't really find it excessive. None of them seem to level more easily than the other anymore, unlike before where the tailor and the scholars greatly outpaced the rest. And the hidden bonus is that with more xp possible for consumption of raws, this is both a leavening out of the pain of leveling a lower recipe class *and* a boost in just how far those low recipe/high resource consumption classes can take their resources. No longer do I spend the night or a couple of nights harvesting what I need, get everything together and start to work, and have extremely little to show for my efforts when all is said and done on one character, while I have much to show for it on another character. Now they all display a satisfying amount of progress at the end of my work period. I don't feel that things like making it through the times when a simple request for a few CAs from a guildmate could mean night after night of getting the materials together just to attempt to make what he wanted are cheapened or degraded at all. I'm proud of what I've gone through for my crafters, even when I wanted to throw something through the wall in frustration. Those are my accomplishments and no matter how hard or easy it is now, I made it through them and nothing is going to change that fact. I applaud the idea that they're trying to make crafting more of a rounded enjoyment, from those who just want to dabble to those who want to make it their life. Now is not the time when we need to nitpick about soandso has it easier so it means less. Now is the time that the pointless chaff, the obsession with levels, can be set aside to look to ways to bring meaning to crafting without having to tie it to leveling. We can set that concern aside, and start to think about ways that those who wish to dedicate more can be rewarded. There have been many great ideas posed on this boards. I've seen ideas about faction NPCs who provide special recipes/techniques/items, tradeskilling quests with rewards that are meaningful to tradeskillers, even Tradeskill Achievements. Why tear each other apart about something so trite as levels when there's a whole vista of opportunity now to focus our attention and effort toward making a reality?

Calthine

08-14-2007, 08:34 PM

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still chuckling. </blockquote>I am sorry .. I just cant read this thread anymore ... what's so funny ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Yeah, I'm having a hard time reading it anymore too. Here's what's making me chuckle: Lots of folks complained about the leveling imbalance because spell-making classes, especially sages, got more pristine bonuses and leveled faster than anyone else. Since Domino couldn't give all the classes an extra 1000 recipes and didn't want to nerf anyone, she did this instead. And she said leveling off writs still isn't as fast as leveling a sage off pristines. And now people are complaining about it. The moral of the story is: be careful what you wish for.

TaleraRis

08-14-2007, 08:37 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Also. . . curious . . . I only do the Rush Jobs, so the non-timed ones might be worth more or less. . . are the Rush Orders the ones you are doing? </blockquote> Those are the rush order writs. I don't see the point in doing the work order ones. </blockquote>I can never find the recipes fast enough so I never do the rush orders -- the recipe books is such a mess trying to find things so I just do the regular writs. </blockquote> Use your search. Need arrows? Have the right Tier filtered in and type "arrow". Or in T7, just "adam" (adamantine). Bam. instant recipe. </blockquote>I have never figured how to filter anything in that awful recipe book. Any it takes time to type in the spell name to do a search (I am not a fast typer which seems to be a prerequisite to do these( </blockquote>I don't end up typing anything at all and I do Rush Writs exclusively. I have noticed, as I'm sure others have, that the different writ levels only pull from specific ranges of books. The x0 writs use recipes from the first level. The x4 writs (I think it changes at x4) use from x1 to x3 usually but I believe I've seen some x4 recipes here and there. The x9 writs will generally not pull from anything lower than the x5 book, although most are from the x6 book to the x8, with a x9 here and there. So I filter out the Essentials books that I need and am down to a page or less sometimes of writ item possibilities. I've never had any trouble finding the required items and I usually finish my writs with over a minute to spare, usually around a minute and a half.

TaleraRis

08-14-2007, 08:52 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote> And she said leveling off writs still isn't as fast as leveling a sage off pristines. </blockquote> I wouldn't even say sages. I would say scholars in general. I leveled my jeweler and my tailor both to 60 the other night from where they were in 58. The jeweler managed to get her entire level 59 level from her new 59 recipes and even had 1 to spare when she hit 60. She made it through doing this in no time, although unfortunately I didn't get exact times. I moved to the tailor and while it was still a good pace through 59 for her, it was not close to the haste of the jeweler.

Lilj

08-15-2007, 06:48 AM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still chuckling. </blockquote>I am sorry .. I just cant read this thread anymore ... what's so funny ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Yeah, I'm having a hard time reading it anymore too. Here's what's making me chuckle: Lots of folks complained about the leveling imbalance because spell-making classes, especially sages, got more pristine bonuses and leveled faster than anyone else. Since Domino couldn't give all the classes an extra 1000 recipes and didn't want to nerf anyone, she did this instead. And she said leveling off writs still isn't as fast as leveling a sage off pristines. And now people are complaining about it. The moral of the story is: be careful what you wish for. </blockquote>Well, Please don't make a too huge generalization, Calthine. I have expressed concern for the xp speed as it is now, especially in Tier7. And I am hoping for some tweaking, not removal of the new system. But I didn't complain about xping before the change, so I don't think I fit into your category or should I say I hope I'm not. I don't think there is anything wrong in expressing concern, and it doesn't feel good that you sit there and laugh of me, because when just sit and laugh, you laugh of us all. This is not meant as an attack, I'm just pointing out that when you just laugh in a thread, you laugh of us all and I don't like being laughed at when I am expressing my concern and I'm not sure you are fair to all in the thread.

Vonotar

08-15-2007, 08:28 AM

Kretyn@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Having finally seen how much faster the XP off writ completion, (Rush Orders for me, in this case) I finally have my opinion about it. Least, for the T7 mid/upper writ range. That being it's too durn fast! <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thankfully, it looks like the amount granted is a bit more balanced in the lower tiers given the posts about the lower levels. I do not have a TSer in any of the lower levels and can not vouch anything about the XP gain. Took me 2 hours to take a 67.02% Jeweler to 70. Of that 2 hours, spent about 90 minutes of it actually working on Rush Orders. Started with 100% Vitality and had enough to easily reach 70. </blockquote>I'm achieving a level a hour/45 minutes with my Jeweler working thru tiers 3-5. So if your taking two hours to go from 67-70 that doesn't seem very much different.

rumblepants

08-15-2007, 09:51 AM

I think this change is great. I really don't care much for staring at my screen and toggle the same set of buttons for hours on end doing the exact same thing. This isn't learning or fun. I tradeskill to help players. So many times I see on my chat people looking for such and such crafter and no one responds and I see the same person asking for the same thing again the following day. I want to help those people.

Calthine

08-15-2007, 02:10 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calthine wrote: I don't think there is anything wrong in expressing concern, and it doesn't feel good that you sit there and laugh of me, because when just sit and laugh, you laugh of us all. This is not meant as an attack, I'm just pointing out that when you just laugh in a thread, you laugh of us all and I don't like being laughed at when I am expressing my concern and I'm not sure you are fair to all in the thread. </blockquote> I'm chuckling as the overall ridiculousness of people, not at anyone specifically. If you felt I was laughing at you, you're being a bit over sensitive. (Like you said, not an attack.) It *is* a silly situation, and it's just human nature. Look, I'm of the opinion that TS XP is way to fast anyway, even before this change, but I lost that battle ages ago. Sure, it shouldn't take the 1000 no-vitality subcombines for one T7 level it took me to level up, but the estimated 300% XP increase we got, what, a year ago, was way too much. But this change is a direct result of people complaining about the leveling inequality caused by an unequal number of recipes. And many of the same people who complained bitterly about it are the ones now complaining it's too fast. Everyone wanted to be like Sages. Now you are. Easier to laugh at the irony than to cry over changes, 'cause I doubt there's much I can do about the leveling speed issue. Me, honestly, I'd rather see a nerf. Maybe now that leveling is lickety-split for everyone I should start campaigning to reduce XP again.

Ronin SpoilSpot

08-15-2007, 02:47 PM

Calthine wrote: <blockquote> I'm chuckling as the overall ridiculousness of people, not at anyone specifically. If you felt I was laughing at you, you're being a bit over sensitive. (Like you said, not an attack.) </blockquote>FWIW, I felt included in the "laughed at" group too. Maybe it was just a little too vague w hat it was about. Maybe it's due to not having Eng lish as a first language ... text can be very unfo rgiving <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Calthine wrote: <blockquote>But this change is a direct result of people complaining about the leveling inequality caused by an unequal number of recipes. And many of the same people who complained bitterly about it are the ones now complaining it's too fast. Everyone wanted to be like Sages. Now you are. </blockquote>I don't remember if I ever said it publicly, but I was expecting a fix for the inequality to lower the speed of scolars and increase the speed of craftsmen, to about where outfitters are. This increase I had not expected. Calthine wrote: <blockquote>Easier to laugh at the irony than to cry over changes, 'cause I doubt there's much I can do about the leveling speed issue. Me, honestly, I'd rather see a nerf. Maybe now that leveling is lickety-split for everyone I should start campaigning to reduce XP again. </blockquote>I guess everyone has their own preferred speed of leveling. Me, I like how outfitters were before XP writs ... perhaps just because it's what I know. But then again, levels go easy if you enjoy what you do and are making products with a purpose, and they feel like they take ages when you're just grinding. So yes, a nerf. To my preferred speed of leveling, ofcourse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /RS

denmom

08-15-2007, 07:35 PM

Why does the speed of leveling matter? Honestly, truly...why? I've seen calls to nerf Sages, to nerf the Scholar line, to give everyone else more recipes...Domino gifts the writ xp and now there's complaints on how fast it is and cries for more nerfage. WHY does it matter so much?! I'm just not understanding this...I really am not. Yes, it's been a pain to level my crafters, esp. given how I must fight for every pristine. My first to L70 was actually my Tailor, with the three Scholars following slowly after and then the Provie. Sure it sucks to gain a level and be given only two or three recipes, as what usually happens with the Woodworker. I've often felt useless because my crafters weren't at a level to be able to help friends and guildees when they needed to be outfitted and I cringed when they had to go to broker or get a custom order and were gouged. Now I can get my crafters higher faster and be able to help out. Bleh, I so hate religious debates...that's what this has become...Us vs Them...those against the writ xp and those for it...as with any religious debate, the other side is wrong, your side is right. Instead I'll say this: THANK YOU, DOMINO for the writ xp, for helping those of us with crafters who gain little to few new recipes each level. Thank you for taking the time to listen to us and to help us. *bows* Remember: Domino didn't have to do this for us. Not at all. But she did. To give help where many begged for it. And now that it's here, all the same many can do is tear it apart and say it's no good and should be taken away. And you know, that's just selfish....yes, selfish. You (meant to those who feel it's too much) may feel this way, but there are many who don't. Taking this away puts us all right back to where we were, and all of Domino's hard work and the hard work of her team will be for nothing. Frankly, with all the complaints I'm seeing, I feel much of what she does is just not appreciated...then again, one can't please everyone...and unfortunately those not pleased will do whatever they can to get their way or make it hell on everyone else.