Arguments against +90 Healing/Damage Buff for Paladins & Shadowknights [Archive]

Faelgalad

07-30-2007, 05:25 AM

1. Does it scale?It doesn't scale. So if things change, like in the coming Rise of Kunark, this doesn't change. How much Healing/Damage boost on items will we see in RoK? Enough to push this to neglible. This is bad. A monks +15% Castingspeed and the bruisers 15% Aggroimprovment scales. This divides Paladin/Sk from Monk/Bruiser. That's makes +90 an bad idea. 2. Is it unique?No, +90 is just comparable arround two legendary +40 Healing Adornments. Not really amazing. In less than a couple of Egg-Runs you have enough stuff to go to a friendly transmuter to get these. The Monk, Bruiser stuff can only be taken by some classes via their achivement. Which is out of reach. Every healer can get +40 healing adornments, no Bard can get +15% Castingspeed. 3. Big Number, Little Effect? Most Healers are Druids running arround. Druids use Healing over Time. +90 is split between those ticks. So a 10 Tick healing over Time get's it ticks increased by 9 points. That is nothing in T7, less in T8 coming. And the Shadowknight, mighty +90 Damage? Not really, every Damage-over-Time Spell uses the same Gamemechanic. So it diminishes the effect dramatically. 4. Usefullness in Raids?Okay, the average Joe of Raid, how many people get something from this? 2x Tanks, 8x Healers, 4x Buffers, 10x DD's would be an common build up. From the 8x Healers, let's assume, 2x Templar/Inquisitor, 2x Mystic/Defiler, 2x Furies, 2x Wardens. So an third of the Raid gets an Bonus. But as shown in Point 3, half of that people don't get so much. Many raids can do many KoS Zones with 6x Healers btw. Comparing to Bruiser, 10x DD's and 2x Tanks get something from it (Aggro Managment), let's assume 5x Melee DD's to 5x Caster DD's, would give the Monk 17 Candidats to help (8x Healers, 5x Mages, 4x Buffer). In each case, half and more of the raid, not a halfed third. The more DD's and Mages, the more usefull this get. For SK's would the configuration above meaning 11 people getting something, 4x Buffers a bit, as they often do other thinks or as Bards are not purely Spell Damage, 5x Mages and 2x Furies if those Furies go into attack sometimes. Meaning 5 + 4 x0,5 +2. Also not wo impressive. 5. Usefullness in Groups? How much Healers to you need in Groups? In most Dungeons, One! Five Arguments Against. PALADINS ARE FIGHTERS WITH AN CAUSE, NOT PARAMEDICS WITH AN SWORDStop Spamming Healing Skills into Paladins. The Paladin community, all paying Customers don't ask for more Healing! We ask for tons of other things, that we don't get!Give Paladins AND Shadowknights +5% Melee Crit and 5% Spellcrit and let Paladin and Shadowknight stack. Sounds mighty? Yes Hell, should it help into getting into an raid, it has to offer something real nicely. That would also help arround half of the people. And NOT 5% Healing crit on the Paladins site. Healing is more a burden than a gain for Paladins as SOE implement it. We can't heal when we tank, so it's more an hindrance than something other. It's not an utility, 'cause Healers heal more than a Paladin. So nothing useful.

Nazani

07-30-2007, 07:59 AM

Paladins should protect instead of heal, so change that undesired raid buff to a resists %, like 15% raid buff for all resists. A percentage is far better that a flat bonus. I'm not a paramedic is a great slogan xdd

chily

07-30-2007, 09:24 AM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Does it scale?It doesn't scale. So if things change, like in the coming Rise of Kunark, this doesn't change. How much Healing/Damage boost on items will we see in RoK? Enough to push this to neglible. This is bad. A monks +15% Castingspeed and the bruisers 15% Aggroimprovment scales. This divides Paladin/Sk from Monk/Bruiser. That's makes +90 an bad idea. It should scale with the level of the spell or not?2. Is it unique?No, +90 is just comparable arround two legendary +40 Healing Adornments. Not really amazing. In less than a couple of Egg-Runs you have enough stuff to go to a friendly transmuter to get these. The Monk, Bruiser stuff can only be taken by some classes via their achivement. Which is out of reach. Every healer can get +40 healing adornments, no Bard can get +15% Castingspeed. +90+40+40 = +170+15% Casting is not that less.3. Big Number, Little Effect? Most Healers are Druids running arround. Druids use Healing over Time. +90 is split between those ticks. So a 10 Tick healing over Time get's it ticks increased by 9 points. That is nothing in T7, less in T8 coming. And the Shadowknight, mighty +90 Damage? Not really, every Damage-over-Time Spell uses the same Gamemechanic. So it diminishes the effect dramatically. inc of dmg is inc of dmg. the str buff has far more less use then the +90Dmg. The change makes sk's more inresting for raid now.4. Usefullness in Raids?Okay, the average Joe of Raid, how many people get something from this? 2x Tanks, 8x Healers, 4x Buffers, 10x DD's would be an common build up. From the 8x Healers, let's assume, 2x Templar/Inquisitor, 2x Mystic/Defiler, 2x Furies, 2x Wardens. So an third of the Raid gets an Bonus. But as shown in Point 3, half of that people don't get so much. Many raids can do many KoS Zones with 6x Healers btw. Comparing to Bruiser, 10x DD's and 2x Tanks get something from it (Aggro Managment), let's assume 5x Melee DD's to 5x Caster DD's, would give the Monk 17 Candidats to help (8x Healers, 5x Mages, 4x Buffer). In each case, half and more of the raid, not a halfed third. The more DD's and Mages, the more usefull this get. For SK's would the configuration above meaning 11 people getting something, 4x Buffers a bit, as they often do other thinks or as Bards are not purely Spell Damage, 5x Mages and 2x Furies if those Furies go into attack sometimes. Meaning 5 + 4 x0,5 +2. Also not wo impressive. that is like blaiming troubs that they can only buff group wise5. Usefullness in Groups? How much Healers to you need in Groups? In most Dungeons, One! and? the buff allso inc the heal of the pally and sk's will maybe look mroe for mage dps then scout dps but not sure.Five Arguments Against. five 5 for itStop Spamming Healing Skills into Paladins. The Paladin community, all paying Customers don't ask for more Healing! We ask for tons of other things, that we don't get!pali's can heal? i though they only got amends <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> joke <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Give Paladins AND Shadowknights +5% Melee Crit and 5% Spellcrit and let Paladin and Shadowknight stack. Sounds mighty? Yes Hell, should it help into getting into an raid, it has to offer something real nicely. That would also help arround half of the people. And NOT 5% Healing crit on the Paladins site. Healing is more a burden than a gain for Paladins as SOE implement it. We can't heal when we tank, so it's more an hindrance than something other. It's not an utility, 'cause Healers heal more than a Paladin. So nothing useful. lol 5% I made my Sk spell and taunt based ( str and int line) the spell crit on him at is 67% i think 5% spell crit is a joke Better inc the dmg of the spells. Hmm ok pali and sk are more mages based somehow now .. both should get a trouba in there group and the pali a liveburning necro even +90 isn't a lot maybe at first look it is at the second look. or why do you buy +40 adorments? only coz you can? i don't think so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>

Druisagoldengod

07-30-2007, 09:50 AM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Does it scale?It doesn't scale. So if things change, like in the coming Rise of Kunark, this doesn't change. How much Healing/Damage boost on items will we see in RoK? Enough to push this to neglible. This is bad. A monks +15% Castingspeed and the bruisers 15% Aggroimprovment scales. This divides Paladin/Sk from Monk/Bruiser. That's makes +90 an bad idea. It should scale with the level of the spell or not?2. Is it unique?No, +90 is just comparable arround two legendary +40 Healing Adornments. Not really amazing. In less than a couple of Egg-Runs you have enough stuff to go to a friendly transmuter to get these. The Monk, Bruiser stuff can only be taken by some classes via their achivement. Which is out of reach. Every healer can get +40 healing adornments, no Bard can get +15% Castingspeed. +90+40+40 = +170+15% Casting is not that less.3. Big Number, Little Effect? Most Healers are Druids running arround. Druids use Healing over Time. +90 is split between those ticks. So a 10 Tick healing over Time get's it ticks increased by 9 points. That is nothing in T7, less in T8 coming. And the Shadowknight, mighty +90 Damage? Not really, every Damage-over-Time Spell uses the same Gamemechanic. So it diminishes the effect dramatically. inc of dmg is inc of dmg. the str buff has far more less use then the +90Dmg. The change makes sk's more inresting for raid now.4. Usefullness in Raids?Okay, the average Joe of Raid, how many people get something from this? 2x Tanks, 8x Healers, 4x Buffers, 10x DD's would be an common build up. From the 8x Healers, let's assume, 2x Templar/Inquisitor, 2x Mystic/Defiler, 2x Furies, 2x Wardens. So an third of the Raid gets an Bonus. But as shown in Point 3, half of that people don't get so much. Many raids can do many KoS Zones with 6x Healers btw. Comparing to Bruiser, 10x DD's and 2x Tanks get something from it (Aggro Managment), let's assume 5x Melee DD's to 5x Caster DD's, would give the Monk 17 Candidats to help (8x Healers, 5x Mages, 4x Buffer). In each case, half and more of the raid, not a halfed third. The more DD's and Mages, the more usefull this get. For SK's would the configuration above meaning 11 people getting something, 4x Buffers a bit, as they often do other thinks or as Bards are not purely Spell Damage, 5x Mages and 2x Furies if those Furies go into attack sometimes. Meaning 5 + 4 x0,5 +2. Also not wo impressive. that is like blaiming troubs that they can only buff group wise5. Usefullness in Groups? How much Healers to you need in Groups? In most Dungeons, One! and? the buff allso inc the heal of the pally and sk's will maybe look mroe for mage dps then scout dps but not sure.Five Arguments Against. five 5 for itStop Spamming Healing Skills into Paladins. The Paladin community, all paying Customers don't ask for more Healing! We ask for tons of other things, that we don't get!pali's can heal? i though they only got amends <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> joke <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Give Paladins AND Shadowknights +5% Melee Crit and 5% Spellcrit and let Paladin and Shadowknight stack. Sounds mighty? Yes Hell, should it help into getting into an raid, it has to offer something real nicely. That would also help arround half of the people. And NOT 5% Healing crit on the Paladins site. Healing is more a burden than a gain for Paladins as SOE implement it. We can't heal when we tank, so it's more an hindrance than something other. It's not an utility, 'cause Healers heal more than a Paladin. So nothing useful. lol 5% I made my Sk spell and taunt based ( str and int line) the spell crit on him at is 67% i think 5% spell crit is a joke Better inc the dmg of the spells. Hmm ok pali and sk are more mages based somehow now .. both should get a trouba in there group and the pali a liveburning necro even +90 isn't a lot maybe at first look it is at the second look. or why do you buy +40 adorments? only coz you can? i don't think so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> What the? No Engrish please.

Faelgalad

07-30-2007, 10:11 AM

"It should scale with the level of the spell or not?" You don't understand me. Scaling means it get's better with the number provided. +90 seems mighty for an Paladin/SK, Troub and Dirge. But the real Spellslinger's don't care about +90 damage. Increase of 5% Damage, 5% Spell Crit, that scales with the spell used. +90 Damage of an Ice Comet is... nothing, can we agree on this. Casting this Ice Comet 15% faster or getting less Aggro is nicer. 2. "+90+40+40 = +170 +15% Casting is not that less."Point is, Paladin and Shadowknight get something that can easily duplicated by Items. Which means it is not such an rare asset. Do you know Items that give +15% Casting speed? Yes, a few procs on items, but not an simple Adornment. 3. inc of dmg is inc of dmg. the str buff has far more less use then the +90Dmg. The change makes sk's more inresting for raid now.You don't raid or? Strength increases Autoattack, which is a might smasher, esspically wie AE-Autoattack by Achivement. If you fight in a Scout Group they will enjoy +54 Strenght. It increases Autoattack, Power Pool, it increases Combat Arts. +90 Spell Damage is not much with the nukes and watered down in the Damage-over-Time. Healing is not so relevant to have +90 Healing. Ministration, Fastcast, Reuse Timer, Healcrit are the winners. 4. Usefullness in Raids? that is like blaiming troubs that they can only buff group wise17+ People for Monk, 10+ for Bruiser, 6-8 with an inferior effect for Paladin, 5-9 People for Shadowknight, also inferior effect. Who is choosen, those with the superior buff benefiting more people or less. A Sorc with 15% Castingspeed, will outhammer an Sorc with +90 Spelldamage. And ask about Aggro Managment after the Aggro Nerf. No Chance for Crusaders against these two buffs!Dirge Aggro increaser is nerfed from 41% to 35%. 15% Increase of an 35% Buff is +5,25% gain on Aggro increaser. Nearly the ammount of the nerf. So which Tank will be choosen, Shadowknight or Bruiser? 5. Usefullness in Groups? and? the buff allso inc the heal of the pally and sk's will maybe look mroe for mage dps then scout dps but not sure. Five Arguments Against. five 5 for itMain Damage comes from Spell Crit, AE Combat, AE-Autoattack and Autoattack with Crusaders. +90 Damage is nothing for personal and +90 Healing is nothing for Paladin, as when we tank, we rarely use healing. lol 5% I made my Sk spell and taunt based ( str and int line) the spell crit on him at is 67% i think 5% spell crit is a joke Better inc the dmg of the spells. Hmm ok pali and sk are more mages based somehow now .. both should get a trouba in there group and the pali a liveburning necro even +90 isn't a lot maybe at first look it is at the second look. or why do you buy +40 adorments? only coz you can? i don't think so LOOOL <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />This buff don't care about you SK, it is raidwide. R A I D W I D E. Sorc love Troub, 'cause Troub give 7,5% Spellcrit. +90 seems mighty for Shadowknights, I guess every Mage will exchange +90 Spelldamage for 1% Spell Crit. And our Druids don't use +40 Heal Adornments except for gloves, 'cause lack of alternatives. Ministration, Healcrit etc. is their choice. We have tried Druids with + X Healing Equipment, going up in the Area of +200 Healing, that was not really effectful.

Freliant

07-30-2007, 10:54 AM

Too many letters, not enough reasoning <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />First of... as a caster, I would gladly take +90 to spell damage.. its better than having a fighter in a group that does nothing to up my attack.Second... those stats are attached to the skill, not the class... and as we know, the skills upgrade every 14 levels. So depending on what level these skills are at T8, we might see an increase. Then again, we might not, and that brings me to my third point:Third, we don't know what RoK will bring up. don't complain that the skills might be useless in RoK because, in all honesty, RoK is not here yet.Take my comments with a grain of salt please, they are not meant to be anything other than informative.

Mabes

07-30-2007, 11:08 AM

First, +15% raid-wide buff to casting speed is godlike, I doubt monks will end up getting that in live. Second, yeah I agree with the points you made about the crusaders buff, personally I think if they're going to give paladins a healing buff, make it something like +10% effectiveness to all heals, that way it scales, and is much more useful.But in the end, I think these fighter buffs will be changed around a lot before going to live servers.

chily

07-30-2007, 12:35 PM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>"It should scale with the level of the spell or not?" You don't understand me. Scaling means it get's better with the number provided. +90 seems mighty for an Paladin/SK, Troub and Dirge. But the real Spellslinger's don't care about +90 damage. Increase of 5% Damage, 5% Spell Crit, that scales with the spell used. +90 Damage of an Ice Comet is... nothing, can we agree on this. Casting this Ice Comet 15% faster or getting less Aggro is nicer. 2. "+90+40+40 = +170 +15% Casting is not that less."Point is, Paladin and Shadowknight get something that can easily duplicated by Items. Which means it is not such an rare asset. Do you know Items that give +15% Casting speed? Yes, a few procs on items, but not an simple Adornment. 3. inc of dmg is inc of dmg. the str buff has far more less use then the +90Dmg. The change makes sk's more inresting for raid now.You don't raid or? Strength increases Autoattack, which is a might smasher, esspically wie AE-Autoattack by Achivement. If you fight in a Scout Group they will enjoy +54 Strenght. It increases Autoattack, Power Pool, it increases Combat Arts. +90 Spell Damage is not much with the nukes and watered down in the Damage-over-Time. Healing is not so relevant to have +90 Healing. Ministration, Fastcast, Reuse Timer, Healcrit are the winners.You see it only as sk. if a sk is in mage group the str buff is a waste for the mages. the mages can give the sk some porcs that make it intessting. 4. Usefullness in Raids? that is like blaiming troubs that they can only buff group wise17+ People for Monk, 10+ for Bruiser, 6-8 with an inferior effect for Paladin, 5-9 People for Shadowknight, also inferior effect. Who is choosen, those with the superior buff benefiting more people or less. A Sorc with 15% Castingspeed, will outhammer an Sorc with +90 Spelldamage. And ask about Aggro Managment after the Aggro Nerf. No Chance for Crusaders against these two buffs!erm those buff's are for the group. if the monk is in a mage group then the mage will get the benefit of fast casting.hmm 15% from monk all the time vs 15secs deathmarch that gives 57% faster casting and +128 int (or more) while the mt is using reinforcement and a the porc maybe pom .. oh wait i think i prefer a sk <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Dirge Aggro increaser is nerfed from 41% to 35%. 15% Increase of an 35% Buff is +5,25% gain on Aggro increaser. Nearly the ammount of the nerf. So which Tank will be choosen, Shadowknight or Bruiser? the coercer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Guard, defiler, templer, dirge, coercer, swash or assassin 5. Usefullness in Groups? and? the buff allso inc the heal of the pally and sk's will maybe look mroe for mage dps then scout dps but not sure. Five Arguments Against. five 5 for itMain Damage comes from Spell Crit, AE Combat, AE-Autoattack and Autoattack with Crusaders. +90 Damage is nothing for personal and +90 Healing is nothing for Paladin, as when we tank, we rarely use healing. bad that you don't use your reaktive heal/dmg at least. that is a free porc. Reaving line and you still heal 30% total even with 2 healers lol 5% I made my Sk spell and taunt based ( str and int line) the spell crit on him at is 67% i think 5% spell crit is a joke Better inc the dmg of the spells. Hmm ok pali and sk are more mages based somehow now .. both should get a trouba in there group and the pali a liveburning necro even +90 isn't a lot maybe at first look it is at the second look. or why do you buy +40 adorments? only coz you can? i don't think so LOOOL <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />This buff don't care about you SK, it is raidwide. R A I D W I D E. no groupwide Sorc love Troub, 'cause Troub give 7,5% Spellcrit. not really jesper and Pom and the other porc.+90 seems mighty for Shadowknights, I guess every Mage will exchange +90 Spelldamage for 1% Spell Crit. yesAnd our Druids don't use +40 Heal Adornments except for gloves, 'cause lack of alternatives. Ministration, Healcrit etc. is their choice. We have tried Druids with + X Healing Equipment, going up in the Area of +200 Healing, that was not really effectful. </blockquote>

Druisagoldengod

07-30-2007, 02:05 PM

Once again Chill confused the crap outta me. +90 Spell is still not enough to balance taking an SK instead of a 2nd dirge.

Caetrel

07-30-2007, 02:26 PM

It should be clear now that the paladin/ crusader community is not thrilled with this +90 junk. Normalization renders it just about useless. I would not expect this to go live as is, UNLESS perhaps there is going to be a change to the +/up to mechanic....altering the way the normalization works/ applying it to base damage etc...

chily

07-30-2007, 02:47 PM

Amondus@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>Once again Chill confused the crap outta me. +90 Spell is still not enough to balance taking an SK instead of a 2nd dirge. </blockquote> a 2nd dirge? who what where?I was thinking of a sk in a mage group .. and there is a trouba :/

Tomanak

07-30-2007, 02:54 PM

Amondus@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>Once again Chill confused the crap outta me. +90 Spell is still not enough to balance taking an SK instead of a 2nd dirge. </blockquote> LOL..but what is? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Giral

07-30-2007, 03:57 PM

IMO Pallies and Sk's have gotten a Junk buff that does one thing and one thing only , Cement's them into a secondary role in any Raid , and pushed Guardian's and Berzerker's even more into the position of MT. i would say there are More Guardains and Berserkers then there are SK's but yet they don't get a New buff like every other tank class just did that helps them get a spot in raid if not Mt Whats the arguement " Who should we use as Raid MT ?" Answer "thats easy a Guard or a Zerker they dont get extra buffs to help the raid, there Sole purpose is to TANK " Currently Bruiser or Monk don't tank raids , and Very FEW guilds use a SK or Pally MT , with this change it just gives even more reason to never ever use a monk/bruiser/sk/pally as a Raid MT.Why they don't just make some raid zones Created for 30 or 36 players instead of 24 , IMO the reason that Alot of people dont get a raid spot is there are just 2 few spots to fill, not many guild's have 6 to 12 extra people wanting to raid of only Dps or healer classes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 24 people raids dont allow alot of room for creativity on the Dev's part, there is only so much you can do with a raid that need's only 1 Tank(possibly 2), 6 healers,4bards and DPS/mezz classes a 36 person raid on the other hand could be much more interesting with 5/6 tanks, 10 healers,6 bards, and dps/mezz classes

lilmohi

07-30-2007, 04:28 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO Pallies and Sk's have gotten a Junk buff that does one thing and one thing only , Cement's them into a secondary role in any Raid , and pushed Guardian's and Berzerker's even more into the position of MT. </blockquote> Seeing as how this is a free buff and doesn't take away from your tanking ability how does this make any difference in what role you play in the raid? Since it is a raid wide buff it doesn't even matter what group you are in. Just because on raids healing might be a little trivial now, doesn't mean that it still will be in T8 when healers will all be using the same main heals they got now. It could be a +heal buff will be the most desired of the raid-buffs.

Freliant

07-30-2007, 04:40 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why they don't just make some raid zones Created for 30 or 36 players instead of 24 , a 36 person raid on the other hand could be much more interesting with 5/6 tanks, 10 healers,6 bards, and dps/mezz classes .</blockquote>Actually... why not just fill the remaining 12 spots with dps increasing classes <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Wilin

07-30-2007, 04:41 PM

And Lockeye's post said that all of the fighters are getting a group buff converted to raidwide. So the guards/zerkers should have one coming as well.

Giral

07-30-2007, 04:43 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why they don't just make some raid zones Created for 30 or 36 players instead of 24 , a 36 person raid on the other hand could be much more interesting with 5/6 tanks, 10 healers,6 bards, and dps/mezz classes .</blockquote>Actually... why not just fill the remaining 12 spots with dps increasing classes <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> ; ) becuase the Dev's could actualy make Raids that you would need all the Tank's there to pick up add's or they would Squish the Dp's classes and one or 2 MT's could not handle 3 names with 10 adds all at one time or they also would go Squish ; ) the current raid encounters are 99% made up for 1 Tank , and thats the reason that any more then 2 Tanks in a raid is pointless , More people in a raid = more flexablity with the design of the raid encounters to Give reasons to have more then 2 tanks in raid's and not allow it to be just 12 more Dps classes OR DPS Increasing classes if done correctly P.S. didnt Sk's lose there Strength buff ? so we didnt get a Boost we just got a Trade off

Dasein

07-30-2007, 07:15 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why they don't just make some raid zones Created for 30 or 36 players instead of 24 , a 36 person raid on the other hand could be much more interesting with 5/6 tanks, 10 healers,6 bards, and dps/mezz classes .</blockquote>Actually... why not just fill the remaining 12 spots with dps increasing classes <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> ; ) becuase the Dev's could actualy make Raids that you would need all the Tank's there to pick up add's or they would Squish the Dp's classes and one or 2 MT's could not handle 3 names with 10 adds all at one time or they also would go Squish ; ) the current raid encounters are 99% made up for 1 Tank , and thats the reason that any more then 2 Tanks in a raid is pointless , More people in a raid = more flexablity with the design of the raid encounters to Give reasons to have more then 2 tanks in raid's and not allow it to be just 12 more Dps classes OR DPS Increasing classes if done correctly P.S. didnt Sk's lose there Strength buff ? so we didnt get a Boost we just got a Trade off </blockquote>All of that could be done while keeping the raid size at 24.

Giral

07-31-2007, 04:32 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why they don't just make some raid zones Created for 30 or 36 players instead of 24 , a 36 person raid on the other hand could be much more interesting with 5/6 tanks, 10 healers,6 bards, and dps/mezz classes .</blockquote>Actually... why not just fill the remaining 12 spots with dps increasing classes <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> ; ) becuase the Dev's could actualy make Raids that you would need all the Tank's there to pick up add's or they would Squish the Dp's classes and one or 2 MT's could not handle 3 names with 10 adds all at one time or they also would go Squish ; ) the current raid encounters are 99% made up for 1 Tank , and thats the reason that any more then 2 Tanks in a raid is pointless , More people in a raid = more flexablity with the design of the raid encounters to Give reasons to have more then 2 tanks in raid's and not allow it to be just 12 more Dps classes OR DPS Increasing classes if done correctly P.S. didnt Sk's lose there Strength buff ? so we didnt get a Boost we just got a Trade off </blockquote>All of that could be done while keeping the raid size at 24. </blockquote>Your right thats why in 3 years , we still dont have a raid that more then 2 tanks is needed and almost every raid can be done with 1 tank ; ) yes it can be done with 24 classes, but with the current way the classes are set up, and the focal point of the game being DPS, even when the devs attempt to make content like this , usualy Raider's just come up with a stratagy to still utilize 1 or 2 tank's. and i didn't say that Every raid needed to be changed to allow more classes ( and im sure raiding guilds that have a 25 person roster wouldn't be very happy that they would need to reruit 12 more poeple : ) it was just a suggestion for maybe a Few raid zones, 1 or 2 to allow Guilds with more then 24 people to allow all of there members to raid regardless of class( and im sure Elite raid guild's could clear these zones with 24 OR Less people anyway : ) so what if they created 1 zone that allowed you to take 5 groups instead of 4 but it could be cleared by a Hardcore guild with 4 groups and would still be challanging for a 5 group of casual players ? i don't see any harm in it , Hardcore guilds can clear easy raids now with 3 or less groups that casual raiders cant clear with 4 full groups ( So IMO it's the same differance 4 or 5 groups except it allows more people into Raids)

Rast

07-31-2007, 05:06 PM

not to turn this into a raid problem, the real problem with raids is, they all require the groups to remain together, rather than forcing them to split up. In a zone where you are forced to split your forces and still acomplish the goal, it would change the classes required.Right now, raiding has very little diversity and the general rule of thumb is, burn it down and fast.

Giral

07-31-2007, 06:37 PM

+90 spell does Nothing for Ae's, and next to nothing for Dots so the only thing it will help a tiny bit is with DD spellsSk's Just lost there strength buff but do not get it back on another buff? why did our Melle damage just go down ? Fine if we dont get the Strenght buff can't we get a Spell timer reduction group buff added to one of our abilities to make up for the lost strenght and to Add to the near worthless +90 spell damge ? i think its only fair if Paladins get to keep there strength buff that we get our strength buff back or something equivelant like 15%reduced spell timers Group wide P.S. Shadowknights LVL 61 Buff is called " Unhallowed Strength" so like everything else with SK's it doesn't make any sense ; ) you might wan't top change the name to "Unhallowed near useless Spell Dmg Increasing ability of Gloom" : P

denmom

07-31-2007, 11:49 PM

I have an argument against it: I play a melee Warden and duo with a Paladin. I don't need more to my healing. I need the Str buff. I know more priests who melee and this just takes away what little we have. Please give the Paladins their buff back! For the record, I also play Paladin. I'm just bringing in another side to this, those who melee and depend on the Paladin's Str buff.

Bowser

08-01-2007, 02:05 AM

I still don't see why they couldn't have just left the group buff alone and then added the raid buff as a separate spell.

EvilIguana9

08-01-2007, 01:46 PM

Archonix said the following on <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/items-equipment/9101-x-damage-x-heal-items-enchanters.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">eq2flames</a>: "Expect a change to how +healing and +damage are calculated soon(tm). It's a problem we've wanted to fix for some time, but didn't want to rush out a change until we were happy with how it was applied to all classes who can gain from it's benefits." So theres a chance these things might be improving in usefulness in the future. I'm personally not a fan of raw percentage bonuses because from a mechanics standpoint they limit upgrade options in the future unless we see a change in the underlying mechanics. As an example, let's say adept III of the spell gave 5% heal or spell crit chance. That 5% is just as good at level 70 as it will be at 80 or eventually 90+. Now if 100% is the crit cap you can't just keep increasing that % indefinitely. You could make the 5% stay the same in the same fashion that the 15% armor bonus on defensive stances does, but that removes an avenue of advancement. Furthermore, if the bonus doesn't increase with each new iteration of the spell line, you can't really differentiate between spell quality. If the adept I is 4%, the adept III is 5%, and the master 6%, and this is the same regardless of spell level, then you have a problem where the adept III of the spell is far better than the adept I 14 levels later. There are already some ways in which this is true, generally the older spell of higher quality is slightly more efficient than the new one of slightly lower quality, but typically the benefits outweigh that. But that changes when the quality levels work as demonstrated above. Two things should be done to solve the problems with this spell. First, the normalization issues get fixed. Second, increase the bonus. Doubling it sounds about right. My feeling on +heal/damage effects is that the best way to fix normalization is to move to a % bonus that decreases with the level of the spell it's applied to. In the same fashion as some effects say "resistability increases on targets over level XX", +damage effects would say "this bonus decreases on spells over level XX", where XX is 10 (in the case of equipment) or 14 (in the case of spells) levels above the level of the effect. That way you have the benefits of percentages, the flawless scaling to their target ability, as well as the benefits of raw numbers, which decrease in relative power as you gain levels.

liveja

08-01-2007, 03:21 PM

When I logged in my SK this morning, my STR had been cut to 58. I don't remember what it was before this patch, but it was a lot higher than that.I had switched to the INT line, from STR, because I had enough STR to effectively melee, & my INT line gave me all the spell damage I needed.Now I've lost my STR buff, kept STA which is mostly useless to me, & in exchange, I get a wimpy +damage buff that makes very, very little difference to me, whereas the lost STR makes a huge difference.To make matters worse, supposedly this +damage buff will eventually go raid-wide, as if that's suppose to make up for the loss of the STR buff. While that's fine & dandy for the raiders, it does NOTHING for those of us who don't raid, & in any event, it's going to be roughly 30-40 more levels before I'd give a rip about raiding, anyway.IMHO, dropping the STR buff from SKs was one of the most ill-conceived nerfs I've ever seen. Dropping the +STA buff would have made a LOT more sense. But whatever, with this patch, SOE has made my alt decision very easy for me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

UUCyberSte

08-01-2007, 04:01 PM

As both a near max'd SK and a max Wiz, I DO like this STR->+DMG change!!! I just looked at a parse from a MT SK going thru Unrest (post-patch), slightly more than two thirds of their damage output was from SPELLS not melee. And, the +DMG helped the 4 other casting classes in the group. The Str would have done little... Keep it in SOE! (Just change the name) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - Frostwynn

liveja

08-01-2007, 04:04 PM

<cite>UUCyberSteve wrote:</cite><blockquote>As both a near max'd SK and a max Wiz, I DO like this STR->+DMG change!!! </blockquote>I would have happily kept the +STR, in exchange for the +STA.

DMIstar

08-01-2007, 07:10 PM

<cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Archonix said the following on <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/items-equipment/9101-x-damage-x-heal-items-enchanters.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">eq2flames</a>: "Expect a change to how +healing and +damage are calculated soon(tm). It's a problem we've wanted to fix for some time, but didn't want to rush out a change until we were happy with how it was applied to all classes who can gain from it's benefits." </blockquote> This gives me some relief concering the Xdmg Xheal issue... Im praying the new way this is implemented is not misleading as it is now. And that it may justify str loss on the sk end for trade with this. But at its current state, its just a waste on a buff.. Its easy to cap off with gear unlike Percent Gains, and the margin of it is just way to off.

Giral

08-01-2007, 09:29 PM

so what went live ? Pallies got a +120 to heal's and keep there Str buff and SK's got =90 to spells and lost strenght buff and had Reaver decreased by 20 /Ponder

Lortet

08-01-2007, 09:39 PM

My SK got sand kicked in his face today and had to back off lol - hate this changeSo I keep the STA buff and lose STR - net effect keep hp, lose power and some damage. Spell damage up by some obscure amount. Historically my SK only loses many hp when I run low on power and cannot keep up my damage and leeches. So now I have less power = lower number of spells etc I can cast. I very much doubt the spell damage will make up for it.I don't raid and have no intention of ever doing so - if i want that experience I can paint a wall and watch the paint dry to represent the waiting to form up, then once things get interesting have to leave anyway due to RL commitments, even late at night (on call regularly). Therefore anything to do with increased raid usefulness meand diddly to me.

Risingmyst

08-01-2007, 10:32 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>so what went live ? Pallies got a +120 to heal's and keep there Str buff and SK's got =90 to spells and lost strenght buff and had Reaver decreased by 2</blockquote>What are you talking about??? I havent seen my heals go up that far... And my Str buff only went to my blessing of the Reverent which is a Hp Increase buff and self buff only, but I did see that the Str is lower then it was in the beginning. But you are crazy when you say that Paladins got +120 heals, never happened and Strength buff was lowered and put in self buff only so it makes us less desirable for raids... Paladin heals only went up +90 at M1 only... at adept 3 it is +87. Where are you getting +120?? the additional +40 adornments??? you can get spell adornments too... called the occult stiching or clasp (adds at min +10 AND AT MAX +25), or event the symbol adornments that add +40 to what ever type of Spell damage you want... divine, arcane, disease, etc.

Jrral

08-01-2007, 11:07 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pallies got a +120 to heal's and keep there Str buff </blockquote>The paladin keeps the STR buff, yes. But only the paladin keeps it. The whole rest of the group loses it, since the +STR was moved from a group buff to a self-only buff. Paladins seem to be tanks more often than DPS types, so the move costs the melee DPS members of the group quite a bit.

Giral

08-01-2007, 11:13 PM

Risingmyst@The Bazaar wrote: <blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>so what went live ? Pallies got a +120 to heal's and keep there Str buff and SK's got =90 to spells and lost strenght buff and had Reaver decreased by 2</blockquote>What are you talking about??? I havent seen my heals go up that far... And my Str buff only went to my blessing of the Reverent which is a Hp Increase buff and self buff only, but I did see that the Str is lower then it was in the beginning. But you are crazy when you say that Paladins got +120 heals, never happened and Strength buff was lowered and put in self buff only so it makes us less desirable for raids... Paladin heals only went up +90 at M1 only... at adept 3 it is +87. Where are you getting +120?? the additional +40 adornments??? you can get spell adornments too... called the occult stiching or clasp (adds at min +10 AND AT MAX +25), or event the symbol adornments that add +40 to what ever type of Spell damage you want... divine, arcane, disease, etc. </blockquote>i could be wrong about the pally heal +120, was in raid tonight and MT asked what buffs we got as he has been away from game, i said i got +90 to spell's and the Paladin said he got +120 to heals so i checked on the pally forum and found this thread <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=374678" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=374678</a>that seems to back up the +120 to heals without any adornments but again i could be mistaken but wouldnt it be Higher if you had all heal adornments then +120 ? what heal adornments can you get ? two +40 and a +25 ? would that amount to more then +120 ?maybe its a Glitch showing then for some people ? i know my Master 1 Unhallowed strenght shows that i increase Spell damage by 89.6 and not 90 ? is there Any stat that increases these spells ? i dont think so ?

Risingmyst

08-02-2007, 12:10 AM

Well after looking at that thread you showed me, I must say that those are our own heals... I have not seen any increase to the heal amount. And 2 of the heals are friend only (1 person heal or personal) and 1 is group heal and 1 is personal heal only, I am not sure about any increase yet but I am gonna check my toon again to be sure.

Risingmyst

08-02-2007, 12:39 AM

Okay well I just looked at the Master spell for Belief and yes it is 120 so please accept my apologies, HOWEVER we Paladins do not want to be watered down Templars. Most Raids wanted the STR buff that was present before in group buff and not additional heals. I am sorry I am not interested in being a Battle Paramedic.... I want to KILL KILL KILL, I speced my Paladin for DPS and i get gyped when they remove the one group buff that makes me useful in a group/raid. And if someone brings up Amends I am gonna reach through the computer and smack him/her up side the head. IT IS ONLY A ONE PERSON HATE TRANSFER what happens if you have 2/6 DPS that are pulling hate????? I cant help... and Amends is ONLY GROUP not raid wide, so it is even more useless in a raid. Oh well.... I guess I am done groaning... Still sucks though

Levatino

08-02-2007, 02:03 AM

This nerf to Sk's is done to make the class more raid viable. wow great but a s a solo'er I give a rats [Removed for Content] about raiding. My playstyle as a solo SK is now through the drain. I demand my str buff back. I can live with the reaver scaled down, maybe it was to powerfull however with reaver maximised with aa that's still a 20% loss but without str buff the solo'er gets beaten a lot.

KERSTYNN

08-02-2007, 05:14 PM

I agree that the removal of the Str component was completed unwarranted AND UNWANTED! In order to be able to solo I have had to completely redo my AA's to the same cookie cutter Str/Int that I was under the impression you were supposedly implementing changes last patch so that we would not have to be cookie cutter and be able to vary our aa choices. I am not, nor was I, reaver specced when the gu went live so I am not even talking about that other particular also UNWANTED nerf, although it is one direction I had looked into going with my AA's. These changes were not particularly well thought out nor well tested (no offense meant to the community on test...theres just not enough of a pool to accurately test IMHO...although you all do the best you can with what you have to work with), and only "barely", if at all viable, to one small portion of your playerbase, those that raid. Which, by the way, is a place most of us who have rolled SK's knew we were not gonna be viable for anyway. We rolled because, again IMHO, we are (were) a fun class to play, could solo well (when it is necessary), and could fill out a casual group with some competence. As I mentioned in another thread, being disabled, I tend to solo more often mostly because my disability does not allow me to type quickly or accurately greatly affecting communication, or on the rare occassion that I may cue up the wrong CA/Spell, causing some chaos during the fight. Luckily I have found a great guild that understands what is going on and that I can group with when it has been necessary to do so. So any changes that greatly affect soloability, greatly affect my personal gameplay.

denmom

08-02-2007, 07:45 PM

Risingmyst@The Bazaar wrote: <blockquote>Okay well I just looked at the Master spell for Belief and yes it is 120 so please accept my apologies, HOWEVER we Paladins do not want to be watered down Templars. Most Raids wanted the STR buff that was present before in group buff and not additional heals. I am sorry I am not interested in being a Battle Paramedic.... I want to KILL KILL KILL, I speced my Paladin for DPS and i get gyped when they remove the one group buff that makes me useful in a group/raid. And if someone brings up Amends I am gonna reach through the computer and smack him/her up side the head. IT IS ONLY A ONE PERSON HATE TRANSFER what happens if you have 2/6 DPS that are pulling hate????? I cant help... and Amends is ONLY GROUP not raid wide, so it is even more useless in a raid. Oh well.... I guess I am done groaning... Still sucks though </blockquote> Isn't Sigil of Heroism a group siphon? And can't it be tweaked in the EoF tree? But yes, agreed, this debuff sucks. I have to respec my Warden's Str, losing points in the Int line and killing my effectiveness in spell damage. The Paladin and SK's losing of the Str buff hurts not only them, but everyone who group/raids with them. That extra Str helped all who melee.

SaraBH

08-03-2007, 12:19 PM

I see allot of complaining about how Pallys get to keep there str buff and how all of us SK want ares back. Before i say anything do Pallys get the STR leach like we get? I only got it at Adept 1 but its still 47 STR for the whole fight (as soon as we loss it we can cast it again) isnt that kind of a ballancer? It takes almost 50 STR from them and gives it to us.......if you use the AAs for it it even gives more STM then STR. so iff you went that route your up almost 50 STR and over 50 STM and the mob is down just as much......Isnt that fair or do Pallys get the same thing? (I never played a Pally and really dont know if they get anything like this so if im wrong and they do im sorry)I havent seen any real differance in my game play since the change. So I for one am very pleased with the changes. I solo quite a bit and the changes were very minor as far as im concerned.

DMIstar

08-03-2007, 02:37 PM

Sasonu@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>I see allot of complaining about how Pallys get to keep there str buff and how all of us SK want ares back. Before i say anything do Pallys get the STR leach like we get? I only got it at Adept 1 but its still 47 STR for the whole fight (as soon as we loss it we can cast it again) isnt that kind of a ballancer? It takes almost 50 STR from them and gives it to us.......if you use the AAs for it it even gives more STM then STR. so iff you went that route your up almost 50 STR and over 50 STM and the mob is down just as much......Isnt that fair or do Pallys get the same thing? (I never played a Pally and really dont know if they get anything like this so if im wrong and they do im sorry)I havent seen any real differance in my game play since the change. So I for one am very pleased with the changes. I solo quite a bit and the changes were very minor as far as im concerned. </blockquote>We want our STR back for Good Reason, I dont care if the want to mess with the Raiding utility at this point.. But our STR should of been Moved as did they did with pallies... The STR taken was pretty much a nerf that disbalances the SK population.. It was no Minor thing they took away.Siphon STR realy has no Point in being part of this unless they changed and upped it, But i would be against that.. Siphon is mearly a Duration buff is all.. and has been in Game for Combat Revamps So saying that all of the sudden Siphon STR is a disbalance is completly wrong Other wise this would have been brought up last year. But it isnt an issue and doesnt need to be made one on false pretenses. The STR on Unhallowed STR line on the other hand was part of the combat revamps and accounted for and thus it being ripped away for a flawed DMG gain goes against what we where balanced for. Also betting when they Revamped the mana Pool on crusaders back then, they took into account this str gain as well.

Giral

08-03-2007, 07:40 PM

i like how a Dev said they don't like the Curent way that +Spell damage works IN-game with the Current mechanics, and then they give us a +90 to spell damage ? that pretty much says it all, they gave us a Buff that they Know is total JUNK , and they take away our STR when we get our Power from 2/3 STR and 1/3 Intel, they reduce Reaver so we heal for lessthese changes made Shadowknights even Less desirable in a raid, No Group Melle buff for STR, a +90 Spell damage that is useless, and we have LESS power so we do Less damage, and have a Harder time Healing ourselves becuase of the Reaver nerfThank's for nerfing a class that already has it pretty rough , like many other SK's have said "Look me up on an ALT cause atm playin my Sk Sucks"