Casting spores on a tank...

[AsYxThief]

How much aggro if any do you get from spores... I hear some ppl complain about it... but I never casted it on a tank just to stay on the safe side because Ive never really experimented with it, I just keep it on myself... but how much of a help would spores be to a tank?

[Skivley101]

<p>The person getting hit the most is what spores is best used for becuz of the realativley low proc % on it.</p><p>Its really only an agro problem when the tank is body pulling and it happens to proc right off the bat. 1 taunt from the tank will usually out weigh the agro gained by it.</p><p>Ive never really had much of a problem at all with it being on the tank all the time & I have it fully enhanced master 1.</p><p>Its nothing compared to the agro shamans can get with their wards</p>

[Lilj]

I always cast spores on my tank and I think I can remember one single time I have gotten aggro from it (as above poster said, he was bodypulling and it procced right away). The thorns is another matter, and if the tank is body pulling I seldom put thorns on him, I get too much aggro from it.

[streeky]

Spores are great on the tank!! Just be sure to remove them before the "Train to wall" or something similar is called out by your tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Train = tank runs through  (usually a LOT) of mobs and to a safe place (a wall for instance), or feigns death if its a monk/bruiser. The group follows and all the mobs try to hit the tank but miss (in theory :p ). That way you can reach places faster without fighting all the stuff in the way. IF spores proc you would get aggro and would get hit and probably die, because you're not a tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> For a more visual example see this nice FTW guildcomic (hope its okay to link to that): <a href="http://ftw.angband.se/ftw-15.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://ftw.angband.se/ftw-15.jpg</a> EDIT: here are all the other nice FTW comics, i love them (the one i posted looked soo lonely :-p )! <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=216486" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=216486</a>

[Isard]

<p>I always put spores and thorns on the MT in the group / raid.  I've never noticed getting aggro to be a problem, and as stated above, one taunt takes care of the problem.</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<p>Me too...always put spores and thorns on the MT - with never a problem.   The one caveat is the Monk or Bruiser "Feign-Training" through a mob heavy zone.  If s/he is buffed with my buffs, I always end up dead.  If you are training through somewhere, unbuff them then rebuff when you start fighting.</p><p>If either one procs during a body pull, one taunt from the tank pulls them off immediately, and we can easily take a couple of hits.  Just don't heal till the tank gets the mobs back.</p>

[Lilj]

Tenal@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>I always put spores and thorns on the MT in the group / raid.  I've never noticed getting aggro to be a problem, and as stated above, one taunt takes care of the problem.</p></blockquote>I think you are playing with better tanks than I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But then again I often play in PUGS, so my tanks come in different qualities (and tastes). For example the other day in HoF I had a group that had huge problems with aggro. The templar in the party most often went into yellow/orange after most bodypulls, because his reactives triggered and he got the aggro right away. I didn't keep an eye on when the tank taunted, I was too busy keeping the templar alive, hah. But I simply didn't dare using the thorns in that group, because if the templar got hurt that much, I could only guess what kind of pain I would get <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I guess I should have been more clear in my first message. Thorns can definitely work on the tank, if it's a good tank. But it can be a problem if the tank is not so good.

[Cathars]

Well, half the problem there was the Templar putting up a reactive before a body pull.  But regarding Spores, it generally accounts for about 4-7% of my zonewide healing.  Its very useful and should always be on the tank unless: theres extensive body pulling like in CMM, or your group is training somewhere.

[Arielle Nightshade]

Liljna wrote <blockquote><p> ......But I simply didn't dare using the thorns in that group, because if the templar got hurt that much, I could only guess what kind of pain I would get <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I guess I should have been more clear in my first message. Thorns can definitely work on the tank, if it's a good tank. But it can be a problem if the tank is not so good. </p></blockquote><p>Not even a contest there...between a Templar Reactive (or Shaman Ward) procing and you casting thorns or spores on the tank.   </p><p>The heal amount of a Reactive procing - usually for several hits worth of damage to the tank (reactives proc for up to 9 hits depending on which one the Cleric uses) - creates hate for the Templar that even several Tank taunts can't pull off him.  In this day and age of body pulling any Templar that places a reactive on the tank at the pull deserves what they get.  If it was cast at the end of the previous fight, not used, and is still sitting on the tank, if they don't cancel it - they get just what you witnessed.  (Been there, done that on my Templar...learned the hard way on my Defiler).   </p><p>Even a really good tank has a hard time pulling aggro off a Templar in that case - an uber one can do it..but only after cursing and swearing a lot (trust me...)...oh, and glaring.  </p><p>The Templar in your story was very lucky you were there - however annoying being personal healer to an idiot healer can be....</p><p>Nothing a Warden can put on a Tank will even remotely get you the same hate.  Not even close.  That's the beauty (and curse) of being Warden.  Everything you heal with heals for small amounts (low hate) but very fast.   Most Tanks, even less than uber ones, can amass hate before your heals over time stack up and really start getting you up on the top of the list.     Thorns don't do that much damage per hit....but they damage EVERY hit...so your hate on that score is also accrued MUCH more slowly than the immediate reactives and wards of Cleric or Shaman.</p><p>Put your thorns on the Tank with confidence.   One taunt will pull it off you if they proc before said taunt, but the damage they can do over time is very respectable. </p>

[Prrasha]

First, unless something has changed recently, Thorns aggro gets assessed to the <i><b>tank</b></i>, not to the warden. I've got lines in my paladin's logfile like "YOUR thorns critically hits a hungering receptacle  for 70 piercing damage", and similarily in my Warden's logfile "Tankname's thorns hits a..." So, the only way to get body-pull aggro is if spores goes off and heals for "enough" to swamp out every other defensive proc on the tank, including thorns. Paladins who body pull should always pre-ward.  1000+ points of ward up front means no wandering aggro during the body-pull (and spores can't do anything until that ward is eaten up... there's a small chance that during a group body pull mobs 1 and 2 will chew up the whole ward, and mob 3 will hit and proc spores and run for the warden, but that should be very rare.) SK's will have Thorns plus their own disease-based damage shield. Berserkers have a self buff that procs damage and taunt when hit; Guardians have one that procs just a (larger-value) taunt.  I think both are 50% to proc. Every tank can have spike-adorned shoulders, spike-adorned shield, imbued tradeskill-made pants and shield (if not yet replaced with better gear), along with a number of other possible "when hit" procs (Signet of Light from Darkness if a crusader tank, etc). Bruisers and monks don't have self-castable spells that proc when hit, so they're the most-likely candidates for body-pull aggro, but they get hit less, so it should happen less, too. To make a short story long, my warden always thorns-es and spores his tank.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Dunno if thorns does it, but Spores definitely does. My wife always shuts off Thorns and Spores when we are training through an area. Last things we need is her to die in a bad spot and have to start all over again, heh.. so we don't even risk it with thorns. Otherwise, she has both up all the time. Spores doesn't do enough aggro by itself to force aggro onto the Warden in normal play... only when the tank is trying to NOT get aggro/use aggro skills.

[Lilj]

Arielle Nightshade wrote: <blockquote>... <p>Put your thorns on the Tank with confidence.   One taunt will pull it off you if they proc before said taunt, but the damage they can do over time is very respectable. </p></blockquote>Very good points and well explained, thank you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I will go back and thorn-up my tank even when he bodypulls.

[Skivley101]

I always thought the damage reflected by thorns was accounted to the tanks dps? ... I was wrong all this time .... again ...?

[Veedublya]

Just FYI, you cannot get aggro from having thorns on your tank, the damage done from throns counts towards your tanks dps, not your own.

[Veedublya]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always thought the damage reflected by thorns was accounted to the tanks dps? ... I was wrong all this time .... again ...?</blockquote> No skiv your right, hehe

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always thought the damage reflected by thorns was accounted to the tanks dps? ... I was wrong all this time .... again ...?</blockquote> No skiv your right, hehe</blockquote>Are you guys sure?  I thought they changed this when they changed Cleric reactives' hate being assigned to the Tank, as well.    ??

[Veedublya]

Yes Arielle, Spores will get you aggro on body pulls if it triggers. Thorns will not because it renders the damage as being done by the tank, not by you.

[Isard]

<p>Our hate generation always worked properly.  It was the clerics and I think shamen that were broken by applying the hate to the tank and not the healer.</p>

[Kimage]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The person getting hit the most is what spores is best used for becuz of the realativley low proc % on it.</p><p>Its nothing compared to the agro shamans can get with their wards</p></blockquote><p>  As my main is a defiler - and my alt is a warden - I can speak as to both. </p><p> I have no prob with spores gaining aggro - its thorns that get me. As as Skivley stated its NOTHING compared to what my defiler gets with aggro. </p>

[Veedublya]

<cite>Kimage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The person getting hit the most is what spores is best used for becuz of the realativley low proc % on it.</p><p>Its nothing compared to the agro shamans can get with their wards</p></blockquote><p>  As my main is a defiler - and my alt is a warden - I can speak as to both. </p><p> I have no prob with spores gaining aggro - <u>its thorns that get me</u>. As as Skivley stated its NOTHING compared to what my defiler gets with aggro. </p></blockquote>Hehe, thorns will not get you aggro

[Tuppen]

<p>I have played a warden since the first day EQ2 went live.</p><p> Thorns damage is assigned to the tank </p><p>Despite what some folks are saying, you can't get aggro from thorns unless they changed this in the last 6 months (since I made my illusionist my main).</p>

[Kimage]

hummmm will have to test that - cuz I had spores on our overactive warlock - and thorns was the one on the tank - and I still got aggro  - hadn't touched the keys yet and the warlock was af with me.... wonder what got me - happend just last nite.

[Azhure]

<p>I noticed one thing. I was getting way more aggro after I upgraded my spores with AA line. In fact it was getting so bad, that I was getting aggro every fight. In COB mobs were running right to me no matter if tank was good or bad.  I decided that it was not worth it and respeced. Never got aggro problem again<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... Would be nice to have it trigger more often, but in my eyes it was not worth the annoyance<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Lyonesse</p>

[Lilj]

<cite>Kimage wrote:</cite><blockquote>hummmm will have to test that - cuz I had spores on our overactive warlock - and thorns was the one on the tank - and I still got aggro  - hadn't touched the keys yet and the warlock was af with me.... wonder what got me - happend just last nite.</blockquote>I have seen something similiar to this and this is why I always thought thorns went to my hate list and not the tank wearing the thorns. Ok, I should try out some things and test it.

[Veedublya]

<cite>Azhure wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I noticed one thing. I was getting way more aggro after I upgraded my spores with AA line. In fact it was getting so bad, that I was getting aggro every fight. In COB mobs were running right to me no matter if tank was good or bad.  I decided that it was not worth it and respeced. Never got aggro problem again<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... Would be nice to have it trigger more often, but in my eyes it was not worth the annoyance<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Lyonesse</p></blockquote><p>Bah come on now! Thats like a wizard saying he isnt gonna dps spec because he is more likely to pull aggro! </p>

[Skivley101]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always thought the damage reflected by thorns was accounted to the tanks dps? ... I was wrong all this time .... again ...?</blockquote> No skiv your right, hehe</blockquote><p> wHew !!! ... i thought i was losing my marbles again</p><p>But then i actually read Prrasha's statement and really felt dumb <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes Arielle, Spores will get you aggro on body pulls if it triggers. Thorns will not because it renders the damage as being done by the tank, not by you.</blockquote><p>Ok..w/e.  I have a tank that never loses aggro anyway...so I wouldn't know.</p><p>::looks all smug and stuff...:::</p>

[Isard]

Arielle Nightshade wrote: <blockquote><cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes Arielle, Spores will get you aggro on body pulls if it triggers. Thorns will not because it renders the damage as being done by the tank, not by you.</blockquote><p><b>Ok..w/e.  I have a tank that never loses aggro anyway...so I wouldn't know.</b></p><p>::looks all smug and stuff...:::</p></blockquote><p>I enjoy the same benefit.  I only, ONLY get aggro on pulls if I accidentally cast an actual heal on the MT before he taunts / does damage.</p><p><u>Are those getting aggro sending your tank in with a HoT running?</u></p><p>As to the thorns debate, I can see it on my ACT parse log that what the chat text says is that the thorn damage comes from the tank.  Now as to if that is <i>actually</i> happening I cannot say as I didn't code the game. </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

Tenal@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>  Now as to if that is <i>actually</i> happening I cannot say as I didn't code the game. </p></blockquote> More's the pity.  If you had, it would probably make some sense from time to time  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Isard]

<p>If I had though I couldn't post here.</p><p>No developers / coders are allowed to post here...</p><p>At least that seems to be the rule.</p>

[AsYxThief]

thanks for all the input guys it rly helps.

[Cathars]

Thorns don't do any damage until you've actively engaged an encounter.  So, no thorn damage assigned to anyone on a body pull.

[Kimage]

<p>ok I will have to retract my statement regarding thorns for now - must have been a flook think that happend those few times. I spent 2 hours with my hubbys tank with only thorns on him only body pulling and my warden never got aggro.... I appologize for previous statments. </p><p>/e walks away with head hanging low </p>

[Veedublya]

<cite>Kimage wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ok I will have to retract my statement regarding thorns for now - must have been a flook think that happend those few times. I spent 2 hours with my hubbys tank with only thorns on him only body pulling and my warden never got aggro.... I appologize for previous statments. </p><p>/e walks away with head hanging low </p></blockquote> lol, your a disgrace to wardens! go betray to a fury! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> jk

[Kimage]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kimage wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ok I will have to retract my statement regarding thorns for now - must have been a flook think that happend those few times. I spent 2 hours with my hubbys tank with only thorns on him only body pulling and my warden never got aggro.... I appologize for previous statments. </p><p>/e walks away with head hanging low </p></blockquote> lol, your a disgrace to wardens! go betray to a fury! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> jk</blockquote><p>I SPIT ON FURY!!!!!  </p><p> Hey give me a break she's my alt!</p><p> btw - Have you punted a gnome today? </p>

[Veedublya]

<cite>Kimage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kimage wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ok I will have to retract my statement regarding thorns for now - must have been a flook think that happend those few times. I spent 2 hours with my hubbys tank with only thorns on him only body pulling and my warden never got aggro.... I appologize for previous statments. </p><p>/e walks away with head hanging low </p></blockquote> lol, your a disgrace to wardens! go betray to a fury! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> jk</blockquote><p>I SPIT ON FURY!!!!!  </p><p> Hey give me a break she's my alt!</p><p> btw - Have you punted a gnome today? </p></blockquote>Lol, my roomate is a gnome fury, so yes everyday i do twice, one for being a gnome and another for being a fury!

[metacell]

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thorns don't do any damage until you've actively engaged an encounter.  So, no thorn damage assigned to anyone on a body pull.</blockquote> I always put Thorns and Spores on the MT. When training through a zone, at least one of them goes off, and puts me in combat mode. Is that just Spores, not Thorns?

[Dragonreal]

yes it's just spores that does it because when spores procs, you "cast" the heal (ie it appears in your maintained window and attributes itself to you).

[gatrm]

<p>Like many have said, thorns is attributed to the tank.</p><p>The only time I ever take thorns or spores off is if the tank is body pulling near social aggro.</p><p>If tank gets hit and the mob takes thorn damage or spores procs, you will get the intended mob as well as the social mobs nearby.</p><p>If no social aggro nearby, no point in taking either off- in a raid the shaman will be the one pulling aggro and in a group, warden can take the hits if the tank allows it..but most likely the tank will have a taunt up before the mob gets to you.</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<p>Interesting then, Ry....when they first implemented disabling evac when you engaged in combat (on the PvP servers), I had spores on our group tank.   He ran into another group that was x2 vs our x1.  We prudently decided to evac out of it.   He was hit but didn't attack back, spores proc'd.  The whole group except him evac'd - he stayed stuck in combat.</p><p>Must have been a glitch when it was new - but the heal proc'ing didn't put ME into combat....the person to whom the heal should have been attributed.</p><p>This is probably why my confusion about the issue.</p>

[metacell]

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Like many have said, thorns is attributed to the tank.</p></blockquote>So if only Thorns procced while training, would it put the tank in combat mode, and prevent them from climbing walls etc?

[Veedublya]

Aquarius@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Like many have said, thorns is attributed to the tank.</p></blockquote>So if only Thorns procced while training, would it put the tank in combat mode, and prevent them from climbing walls etc? </blockquote> No, thorns will not put anyone in combat

[Leemeg]

I almost always put spores on the main tank. With a half decent tank it shouldn't be a problem. Many has already said it, one single hit or a small taunt on the mob when they fly past the main tank towards me, is enough to take the aggro back. And the effect of spores makes up that in the long run (it does about 5%-15% of the zone wide healing from me, depending on type of zone). Free heals <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Only real problem I got with the spores is putting them on a brawler as the main tank. Since many brawlers has a pull technique that involves fd too often (fd if they get 1 add extra), sometimes unannounced train runs, etc.. Putting it on yourself in a group situations I find useless, since if I start taking damage, its not enough to keep me alive. But, on a plate tank it is sometimes enough to keep the tank topped off much of the trash, or during very long fights (during power issues)

[gatrm]

<p>The other interesting thing about this is that spores doesnt actually put you into combat when it procs, it just causes mobs to get mad at you- so that if a tank is training through, and spores procs, you get attacked.  I often use spores on myself when training through a zone, and when it procs, it does not put me into combat/slow me down, etc.  </p><p>The only time in a group I would put spores on myself instead of the tank is if I kept pulling aggro- so if I was with a tank who had trouble holding aggro, I would use it on myself.  Normally, this is not the case, but I do have enough mitigation to survive most non-raid situations healing myself until the dps burns the mobs down.</p><p>I don't play pvp, and the rulesets seem slightly different there, so I dunno about that.</p>

[ganjookie]

I find that if I am Training through SoS with my monk friend, I will get aggro if Thorns or Spores are on him, removing them resovles the issue. So I would guess that Thorns does cause aggro on the caster.

[Azzikai]

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The other interesting thing about this is that spores doesnt actually put you into combat when it procs, it just causes mobs to get mad at you- so that if a tank is training through, and spores procs, you get attacked.  I often use spores on myself when training through a zone, and when it procs, it does not put me into combat/slow me down, etc.  </p></blockquote><p> There are times when I'm duo'ing with a Bruiser and we end up running off after shinies or nodes or something. We will be a fair distance apart and I will get put into combat. I'm not being attacked nor am I trying to attack anything but Spores has proc'd on the Bruiser that has decided to kill something. </p><p>It doesn't happen constantly but it does happen and I think that might be where the confustion lies?</p><p>I know with my above mentioned Bruiser friend I've been following him through zones where he decides to just train stuff off and Spores procs making some of the mobs turn and start smacking me around yet I'm not put into combat. </p><p>I don't get it but I do know I'm not imagining things <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Oh, I also always cast spores and thorns on the tank. I will remove spores if the tank is trying to body pull what could end up being multiple groups of mobs significantly higher level than me (only 62) or if the puller/tank may be using FD. Sometimes it means that the tank just doesn't have the buff on him because it is ultimately more dangerous to have it on than to not. Last night was a wonderful example of that, I was in OoB and on one lovely lag-induced (/shakes fists) over pull I was dead before the lag spike was over. Spores proc'd on the first hit that the tank took, there was little he could do to save me from 5 non-linked mobs.</p>

[Veedublya]

<p>Okay.... hehe, here is the complete rundown so there is no more confusion!</p><p>Thorns - Does not get you aggro when it triggers and does not put you in combat when it triggers</p><p>Spores - Will get you aggro when it triggers and does not put you or the tank in combat when it triggers</p>

[Lilj]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay.... hehe, here is the complete rundown so there is no more confusion!</p><p>Thorns - Does not get you aggro when it triggers and does not put you in combat when it triggers</p><p>Spores - Will get you aggro when it triggers and does not put you or the tank in combat when it triggers</p></blockquote>Nice sum-up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I mentioned earlier I meant to have seen me get aggro from thorns in a bodypull. I tested it with a friend yesterday and quite as you guys report, I didn't get aggro (he just had thorns on and let the mobs hit him). I have a feeling my experience is from long time back, back when you could go into combat, because your imbued pants procced while you were running through aggro areas. So I hope I didn't confuse anyone with my former message, I just thought I would come in and correct meself <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />