Im starting to feel useless...

[Verrie77]

<p>When i went over to play my coercer more as a main it was becasue we needed one in the MT group, and not just a coercer autofollowing like we had for a while.</p><p>I have never been able to do much DPS even if im wearing all proc gear. But i felt i had things to do anyway...and felt usefull...helping with mana...dividing mana...etc etc. Using my hatebuff....yeah you know....</p><p>But suddenly ive been put in the scoutgroup... All i can do that is give out 3-4 dps ( 78 as master ) And provide mana.... Yeah and give coercive healign to the inquisitor then...one extra reactive that will be. I cant do anything more.....if i were an illu i would be just as usefull..and be able to do some dps .</p><p>Im loosing all the happy feelings abut raiding...i could just aswell be autofollow on someone. Do you guys have any comforting words?...or am I totally wrong that we do more good and are mroe usefull in MT group ?</p>

[Blumfield]

We can be useful in the melee dps or the Off-Tank group.  Almost anything you can do from the MT group, you can do from one of these two groups:  sever hate, mana flow, dps, hate decrease buff, stun/stifle/root/mez/daze.  In a scout group, depending on your spec, you may be just as helpful to the raid, since you'll be able to make a bigger difference in DPS and will potentially be able to decrease group hate w/aa.  Channel/healer buffs/thought snap will be of less use to you in this setup but your overall contribution could be equal or greater.

[Rarlin]

<p>/agree</p><p> I feel more useful in raids than ever before (and I suspect with the next LU, that will only increase).  I'll never be the DPS machine of just about any other support class, but with all the support abilities that I have, it really doesn't bother me too much.  I would like something to be done about our procs (automatically triggering remaining ticks on experation or something... especially the Spell proc <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), but even if they don't make those changes, I'm still loving my class (fanboy I know).</p>

[Jeepned2]

Schmutzen@Vox wrote: <blockquote>In a scout group, depending on your spec, you may be just as helpful to the raid, since you'll be able to make a bigger difference in DPS and will potentially be able to decrease group hate w/aa.  Channel/healer buffs/thought snap will be of less use to you in this setup but your overall contribution could be equal or greater.</blockquote>Ah...so I cast my DPS buffs, autofollow a ranger (they never get too close to the mob) and then what? Putting a Coercer in the DPS group is a total waste of our abilities, especially if there is an Illusionist or two available. I may be "just as helpful to the raid", but where is the fun? Where is the feeling that you're doing something useful? Ask any raid leader which he'd rather have in the DPS group, a Coercer or an Illusionist. Don't feel bad when he/she bits your head off of asking stupid questions. Being put in the DPS group is almost like them saying "Oh ok...you can come too, just stay out of the way." BTW, some of the real whiny classes are starting to irritate me. Starting to think that they would be a good place for my hate buff if I'm not in the MT group. Hit them where it hurts, in repair bills. Of course then they will whine they need better de-hate abilities.

[Verrie77]

Thankgod some more ppl feel the same...phew !

[Roriondesexiest]

<p>Well right now coercers are pretty useless, even more so outside of the MT group.</p><p>Outside the MT group there are classes that do what coercers do and provide more "useful buffs"</p><p>I take 2 dirges, 2 illusionists, a troubador and sometimes a coercer.</p><p>If I could find another dirge there really isn't much use for the coercer which is usually in the OT group.</p><p>Not sure what to do to coercer to make them more raid useful.  Either more dps or more beneficial buffs.</p>

[Aranieq]

My 2nd box coercer is still in fabled gear and mastered, and when we lost our main coercer this week... in stead of dusting her off and spot coercering we opened up for another enchanter, atm I hope we get a second illusionist based on the state of coercer affairs atm. Coercers have been putting up well thought out proposals on how to make them more indispensables on raids.  I would hope some action will be taken soon to increase Coercer enjoyment of play, as a coercer since release I do not enjoy it atm, not everyone has the luxury of multiple raid toons to switch to when their class is not enjoyable.  For those staying the course and sticking it out as a coercer, I think the devs will recognize how well you have been lobbying for your proposals and am pulling for you myself. I am interested in how the aggro will change for some of the more dps inclined coercers.  I imagine there might be an even larger gap drawn between the casual and hard core coercer.  An assassin or swash who can't push his weight in dps gets and axe how will this pressure the coercer to push solid dps when there is such a large gap atm between the high dps coercer and the 300 dps coercer even with good gear.  When anyone rolls an assassin they say yep ima stab stuff hard and be top parsing.. no one rolls a coercer ans says I'm going to top parse...  Although some do very well for themselves don't get me wrong.

[Alcanilla]

You are lucky to only start to feel useless! Some did much earlier. With aggro changes, from my understanding the coercer will have less place in MT group as Dirge will have to use its aggro buff and Assas/Swash will generate much more aggro trough hate transfer. Coercer in MT group will mostly be usefull only for saving one buff slot to dirge with the mana regen.

[Blumfield]

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ah...so I cast my DPS buffs, autofollow a ranger (they never get too close to the mob) and then what? Putting a Coercer in the DPS group is a total waste of our abilities, especially if there is an Illusionist or two available. I may be "just as helpful to the raid", but where is the fun? Where is the feeling that you're doing something useful? </blockquote> <p>Well, that's a whole other can of worms.  All I was saying was that we don't have a huge dropoff in effectiveness in one group or another.  As for whether we're balanced with the other classes, we clearly need some tweaking.  </p><p>Foremost, reactives need to work better.  IMO the devs should:</p><p>1) Scrap power reactives and replace them with another nuke or DoT.  These things just aren't working as intended.</p><p>2) Make melee reactives proc on every swing rather than every connect</p><p>As for your subjective experience of fun, well...   I enjoy playing coercer from any group in the raid.  Then again, I enjoy playing defiler too, so I guess I'm kinky.</p>

[hypnotic]

You all kind of got screwed by your guilds then i still hold a slot in the MT group and i do not feel useless. and infact with the new hate changes it is even better. Since the combined hate buff increase will now total 50 with a dirge you will also be able to supply an additional 17% of your own hate, and if you have not taken the time to look at your hate position, as a coercer, we are firly high on the charts, even with our lowly dps. Stuns, stiefles and so forth are all used in raiding and if you do not, you are a poor coercer. Any of these spells increase hate in mass quantities and as such this is a god send. Plus when you look at the nerf scouts recieved, it is even more viable for us to be put back into full use. so if ou feel useless, that is purly your own fault, roll a wizy and button mash. If you want to play a class that relies on talent then play a coercer. Think you could truly be a buff bot and play a bard.

[Lord Montague]

Agnorok@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>You all kind of got screwed by your guilds then i still hold a slot in the MT group and i do not feel useless... </blockquote>Amen to that.

[Vydian]

Still in the MT group here too. You'll let me know when the other hate transfer classes bring stackable power regen, heal crit, cross raid deaggro buffs and the like. The more likely scenario to happen would be to drop the warden from the MT group and run dirge+coercer+assassin/swashie altogether.

[Encantador]

Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Still in the MT group here too. You'll let me know when the other hate transfer classes bring stackable power regen, heal crit, cross raid deaggro buffs and the like. The more likely scenario to happen would be to drop the warden from the MT group and run dirge+coercer+assassin/swashie altogether. </blockquote><p> stackable power regen ... tick</p><p>heal crit ? who cares ... 5% crt is worth about 2% extra healing and healers over heal with direct heals anyway.</p><p>cross raid deaggro ? is just that .. being in any group will do.</p><p>What else ? Coercive healing ? yep important on the toughest of fights. But not as important as the MT holding aggro.</p><p>If your guild used MT, 3 healers, a dirge and a coercer, then you will be better off. Your guild was being less effective at holding aggro than they might have been. Now with 3 healers it is a decent setup. Not much to choose between that and MT, 3 healers, dirge, and an assasssin OR swashbuckler. The dirge is important. The coercer a good choice but if none available then just use a scout. Arguably the coercer would be better in a DPS group or off-tank group (nothing like Thought Snap for getting the mob to the OT if the MT dies).</p><p>For those guilds that used 2 healers in the MT group (and lets be honest what does a warden (or fury) provide except skill buffs for the MT group that could not be provided from outside) the position of the coercer has gone from very valuable to just an alternative to a scout. If power in the MT group is not an issue then coercer is proably more valuable in OT group.</p><p>I am unlikely to lose my place in raids but I feel that this is because of me as a player not because my class is so great. It is going to become a real struggle for up coming coercers to find a way into raid guilds. </p>

[Iad]

I recently started a new coercer after having not played since release, and though I don't feel useless, I cannot find a group. I'm level 44 and I have been able to get into 1 group, and that was only to complete a heritage quest in a grey zone... I must have been lucky because I did not have anywhere near this much trouble finding a group at release. I hate soloing, and I have no desire to play anything other than an enchanter, so I'm screwed I guess.

[Vydian]

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Still in the MT group here too. You'll let me know when the other hate transfer classes bring stackable power regen, heal crit, cross raid deaggro buffs and the like. The more likely scenario to happen would be to drop the warden from the MT group and run dirge+coercer+assassin/swashie altogether. </blockquote><p> stackable power regen ... tick</p><p>heal crit ? who cares ... 5% crt is worth about 2% extra healing and healers over heal with direct heals anyway.</p><p>cross raid deaggro ? is just that .. being in any group will do.</p><p>What else ? Coercive healing ? yep important on the toughest of fights. But not as important as the MT holding aggro.</p><p>If your guild used MT, 3 healers, a dirge and a coercer, then you will be better off. Your guild was being less effective at holding aggro than they might have been. Now with 3 healers it is a decent setup. Not much to choose between that and MT, 3 healers, dirge, and an assasssin OR swashbuckler. The dirge is important. The coercer a good choice but if none available then just use a scout. Arguably the coercer would be better in a DPS group or off-tank group (nothing like Thought Snap for getting the mob to the OT if the MT dies).</p><p>For those guilds that used 2 healers in the MT group (and lets be honest what does a warden (or fury) provide except skill buffs for the MT group that could not be provided from outside) the position of the coercer has gone from very valuable to just an alternative to a scout. If power in the MT group is not an issue then coercer is proably more valuable in OT group.</p><p>I am unlikely to lose my place in raids but I feel that this is because of me as a player not because my class is so great. It is going to become a real struggle for up coming coercers to find a way into raid guilds. </p></blockquote>     We give 16% heal crit with 8 pts, not 5%.     Coercive Healing + 16% heal crit wards = pretty dang big increase.     Cross-raid deggro means we don't have to be in the DPS group to help em out.     So....let's see what I do in the MT group.     1) Power Regen stacking w/Beholder's Eye and Gorging Thoughts when up.     2) Hate Buff/Transfer the MT     3) DPS buff the MT (more hate)     4) DPS buf the assassin/swashie if they are in (maybe, the changes will shake things up potentially)     5) Cross-raid deaggro sorcs.     6) Mana cloak (MT power) and Channel (Group power)     7) 16% heal crit for 2 or 3 healers.     <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 15% better wards for the shaman.     9) Pretty decent hate generation with offensive abilities, most likely enough that the transfer we have will be pretty nice.     Now, MT group 1:     MT     Defiler     Templar     Warden     Dirge     Coercer     Now 50% hate buff, 17% transfer from coercer     MT group 2:     MT     Defiler     Templar     Warden     Dirge     Assassin Swashie     Now 37% hate buff, 18% transfer from Assassin. So can the assassin make up 13% buff AND at least equal 17% from coercer? Without dying?     (This is assuming the tank doesn't have chime or other flat hate increasers, those can affect this).     MT group 3:     MT     Defiler     Templar     Dirge     Coercer     Assassin/Swashie     Now 50% buff, 35% transfer. Compromises the Warden, but that isn't so unusual.     Group 2 is probably the worst choice of the 3. The Assassin has to make up hate from the buff while not dying now from their own decreased transfer.         Keeps the Warden, but loses all listed above for the coercer.     Group 1 is probably second, getting the buffs and utility of the coercer with max healers.     Group 3 is likely to be popular more now. Max hate for the MT, Assassin can open up more with extra DPS and extra coercer transfer. Loses Warden             buffs and such.     As for other groups for the coercer? There is nothing we can do that an illusionist can't do quite a bit better elsewhere. Thoughtsnap for the OT would be about it and thats grasping at straws for how most raids go. Coercive Healing would be wasted in anything but the MT group. Mana Ward? Much better for the MT group hands down. Tash is a wash either way even if you have it.     Face it people, the coercer is designed for the MT group first.        

[hypnotic]

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote:</p><p>I am unlikely to lose my place in raids but I feel that this is because of me as a player not because my class is so great. It is going to become a real struggle for up coming coercers to find a way into raid guilds. </p></blockquote> That my be the case, but there is always a need, i would say on the low end, 60% of the raid guilds world wide are looking for coercers to fill their ranks at any given time, but as our population keeps getting smaller and smaller, that only means that those of us who are at end game are going to be looked to more and more. so for those of you up and coming coercer who might read this thread, this is a great class and reaquiers acctual skill to play, not that other classes dont requier skill, the enchanter is an art and being able to play one "good" then that puts you in an very select group. Nothing wrong with losing intereste in any class Ryael, it happens, but this is a dierly needed class in raiding, and hopfully it will be more prevelant in ROK.

[Vydian]

Agnorok@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote:</p><p>I am unlikely to lose my place in raids but I feel that this is because of me as a player not because my class is so great. It is going to become a real struggle for up coming coercers to find a way into raid guilds. </p></blockquote> That my be the case, but there is always a need, i would say on the low end, 60% of the raid guilds world wide are looking for coercers to fill their ranks at any given time, but as our population keeps getting smaller and smaller, that only means that those of us who are at end game are going to be looked to more and more. so for those of you up and coming coercer who might read this thread, this is a great class and reaquiers acctual skill to play, not that other classes dont requier skill, the enchanter is an art and being able to play one "good" then that puts you in an very select group. Nothing wrong with losing intereste in any class Ryael, it happens, but this is a dierly needed class in raiding, and hopfully it will be more prevelant in ROK.</blockquote>Err, you got me quoted for someone else <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dravendar]

<cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>But suddenly ive been put in the scoutgroup... <p> All i can do that is give out 3-4 dps ( 78 as master ) And provide mana.... Yeah and give coercive healign to the inquisitor then...one extra reactive that will be. I cant do anything more.....if i were an illu i would be just as usefull..and be able to do some dps .</p><p>Im loosing all the happy feelings abut raiding...i could just aswell be autofollow on someone. Do you guys have any comforting words?...or am I totally wrong that we do more good and are mroe usefull in MT group ?</p></blockquote> Your last sentence gives me the impression that your raid leader chose to not include you (the only coercer) in the MT group.  I will give the raid leader the benefit of the doubt in saying that perhaps the encounters you were in required mana regen in every group and there were not enough bards and chanters in the raid.  Either that or add control in the OT group was absolutely essential to the success of the encounter.  That would be one of the VERY few circumstances I could possibly imagine taking the coercer out of the MT group. IF that is not the case, then your raid leader needs to be fired from the job.