Bruiser Instill Doubt necro-nerf

[Dahlrek]

This is regarding the recent update note on test: <p>Bruiser</p><ul><li>Intimidate: Properly shares a reuse timer with Instill Doubt, as is described by its examine information</li></ul> First - I'd suggest never making changes to things based on their textual descriptions.  If the abilities in EQ2 actually matched their descriptions, this would be an entirely different game. Second, this ability was never intended to share a reuse timer with Instill Doubt.  During testing of the great CC nerf of Update #24, it was temporarily changed to share a reuse timer.  After much discussion (aka complaining), the timer linking was removed and it was significantly nerfed by other methods.  Confirmation of that by testers here: "Fear and <Mez WERE at one point on the same timer in test. Then about a week later they changed it back."   From: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=90205􎠮" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...05􎠮</a> As well as the initial test patch note: "- Bruiser: Intimidate - This combat art line now shares its reuse timer with Instill Doubt."   From: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=262363" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=262363</a> And the final update patch note: "- Bruiser: Intimidate: Increased Reuse timer to 60 seconds, increased resistibility, and reduced Mesmerize duration and power cost."   From: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=253109" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=253109</a> During those changes, the textual description was updated to include the timer linking, but not fixed when the timer linking was removed.  Clearly, the new nerf is just someone careless, new or forgetful, making bad changes based on bad fixes to bad changes. I'm personally still irritated to this day about the screwed up nerf & revert to Bruiser's DoT kick in the exact same Update.  You folks seem to have no grasp of solid revision control or QA.  Please don't further cement that opinion by not checking the revision history of this ability to see that it clearly is NOT intended to be linked to the same timer.  And hey, if you're bored, fix the DoT while you're at it.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Um yeah.. this one is odd. "As is described in examine info"? Okay... let's go over the life of this combat art: - Bruisers had a Fear and a Mez. Monks had their own abilities. If you counted ALL of the abilities that Monks have, compared to Bruisers, we had the EXACT SAME NUMBER of abilities WITHOUT Monks sharing our Fear spell. - PvP came out. "Good" side Brawlers didn't have a fear. There was much whining and complaining, and instead of dealing with it, they demanded something be done to the Bruiser class or Monk class as a whole (affecting PvE). This may have been before the massive reduction in control abilities so back then it was probably a very good control spell. - Fear was made to be BRAWLER instead of Bruiser only. Thus, Monks get +1 ability over Bruisers. - At the same time, someone that obviously didn't understand the Bruiser class decided to ALSO make it on the same timer as Bruiser Mez. So a SHARED ability was now on the same timer as a Bruiser ONLY spell. Not only does this not make sense, but it also puts the Bruiser at -1 ability over Monks. In a PvP sense... the Monk got a 2 ability lead on Bruisers. - Jezekiel, Gaige and quite a few others voiced their concern over reducing Bruisers like this for no apparent reason. The two spells were ALWAYS seperated UNTIL they decided to give one of them to Monks. Why would Bruisers get two disimilar abilities on the same timer, especially when one is not even a progression based (only has two versions, stops at lvl 50). Reverting it back to this <b>mistake</b> back in the day is silly. This was never meant to be this way, it was never this way before, and was only made this way by accident and was quickly returned back to normal. Please, please, please make sure you check the history of the ability and the reasons WHY it's the way it is before you make changes to it. Quite simply <i>the description is wrong, a hold over from the days when it was accidentally changed with the PvP focused spell sharing. </i><span style="font-size: small">Maybe you should fix the DESCRIPTION so that it DOESN'T say that it's sharing the same timer, instead of basing the mechanics on a broken description. It would be like saying, "Let's make Monk invis Brawler, because Bruisers don't get an invis in PvP and that hurts them." But then also putting their Mitigation + Root ability on the same timer, so the recast gets set off when you use invis, etc. It makes just as much sense as the change to the mez and fear.</span>

[Kainsei]

That sucks :/ I've looked at the spell progression list on eq2ref and both classes have the same numbers of spells. They gave us instill panic because monks were in fact one ability behind. Look, before they gave us instill panic : Bruiser : mez  /  Monk : invi Bruiser : sucker punch  /  Monk : everburning blaze (self haste 1% hp / 3 sec) Bruiser : mit buff with hp drain /  Monk mit buff with root + power drain Bruiser : instill panic  /  Monk ??? Now, <b>I agree that they should not put scared still and instill panic on the same timer</b>, because bruisers would get one less ability than monks. By the way, they need to create a lvl 70 version of that spell.

[lilmohi]

Do you guys really use the fear ability?  Since monks got the fear i used it a couple times and ended up wiping the group with adds.  Since then it's on my hotbar but never used unless i'm bored and feel like messing with people in the group.

[Etchii]

<p>WHY do they keep messing with us?  Stop touching our abilities.  I can see abilities being changed right after an expansion on new arts...but why are you messing with abilities we've had for what feels like an eternity. </p><p>What could possibly be so horrible about having these abilities on diffrent timers?  Does it keep you up at night?  Do you have nightmares about them being on diffrent timers.  Do you wake up screaming with sweat dripping off your head?  Maybe you cant "Perform" because your too worried that theres this quest, and its always going on...where bruisers get a short duration fear and a short duration mez on DIFFRENT TIMERS! ! O M G!!!!!!!!   </p><p>Seriously...why? </p><p>If your bored go grab a beer at a bar, leave my abilities alone!!!</p>

[Etchii]

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you guys really use the fear ability?  Since monks got the fear i used it a couple times and ended up wiping the group with adds.  Since then it's on my hotbar but never used unless i'm bored and feel like messing with people in the group.</blockquote><p>I do.  I use it alot actually.</p>

[Supp]

<p>I use it when soloing. </p><ul><li>When I approach a trio of mobs, I mez one, fear the next, and kill the last.</li><li>When I approach a duo, I fear one and beat down the other. When the feared one comes back, I mez it and continue beating down the other. </li></ul><p>That won't work anymore if they're on the same timer, especially one with an increased recast.</p>

[Etchii]

<p>OMG it went live!</p><p>instead of arguing against this, i'm going to post the link to the thread a year ago when we already went through this.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=266321" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=266321</a></p><p>Maybe a dev will read it.</p><p>i doubt it.</p>

[Agaxiq]

My Suggestions: <ul><li>Add a level 70 fear or promise one in Tier 8 at least since Instill Panic has reduced effectiveness above 70.</li><li>Remove the linking of the spells.</li></ul>Or: <ul><li>Change Scared Still to a stun.  You could then remove Instill Doubt from the game.</li></ul>Just my opinions. agressiv

[ganjookie]

Personally I thought that is how it always was from LU months ago.  I don't believe that this is such a big issue. /shrug off

[tt66]

Anyone know why this was necessary? I mean, it seems like such a pointless change. Was it because in general brawlers got a bit of a buff this patch, so they decided to take something away in compensation? It just seems so.. arbitrary to decide that two totally different abilities should share the same timer. Incidentally, does this mean the icons of the fear line and the mez line are going to be made the same, because otherwise it's going to cause some confusion for the newbies? Tch. I can't say I'm going to miss a lvl 50 spell, but there are obviously people in this thread who actually made use of it. A shame that someone decided to be petty and take it away from them, "just because".

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

First of all, I use it. I wish they'd sit down and rewrite the spell according to the latest game mechanics, instead of leaving it like it was from over 20 updates ago. Nowadays, a Control spell that doesn't upgrade is a stunted spell. ALL control spells have a 50% resist handicap against things 20 levels higher to FORCE people to use higher level versions... it's there because lower level masters were better than higher level adept 3's and cheaper too, so people used lower level spells. We don't HAVE a higher level version to use. This needs to be fixed to a 14 level spell, or one that automatically scales with level, or at least removes the normal Control level limitations. If this isn't fixed, Monks and Bruisers basically lose a spell in tier 8. Second, it makes no sense to make it on a shared timer with anything else. Seriously. It's exactly like making Rescue on the same timer as any Fighter's single target taunt. They both have similar goals in usage, but different reuse timers, different effects, and more importantly... it's an ADDITIONAL ability you can use alongside each other. Monks get Instill Doubt WITHOUT it being shared on another of their ability's timers. Why should bruisers have the same? Monks get an Invis which is NOTHING like what a bruiser gets. There's no comparative ability. Bruisers get a Mez that Monks have no comparison to either. There's the equality. Now we have to choose to either Mez or Fear, not allowing us to do both. Monks don't have to. Where is the logic behind this? And don't, for the love of all that is holy, nerf Monks so that it's on one of their other timers. That would be even more ridiculous. Seriously... this is why it was never changed back in the day, and why it must be put back again now. Fix the spell line, please!

[Bramwe]

That is one nice post.  I like it when people take the time to actually find sources to use in their argument. 

[Etchii]

<p>It matters because the abilities were already nerfed severely over a year ago.  Now you link them together as one making one of the two useless.</p><p>Remember when it used to be a 30sec or so duration?  Oh i do.   If its going to be linked it should at LEAST be reverted to pre-duration nerf status! </p><p>Nice sig pic to the poster above.  Chuck Norris wouldn't stand for this double nerf re nerf bulls hit either!</p><p>P.S. I will bump this every day until a responce is given by someone involved in bruisers/combat arts.</p>

[MrDaerion]

I really don't see the point of this nerf either. What's the point in having two <i>seperate</i> abilities which accomplish similar things in different ways (to take a mob out of combat for a (very) limited duration) on the same timer? Why not just make it a single ability then? I don't get it.

[Etchii]

Daily bump

[tt66]

Out of interest, can anyone think of a situation where you would rather be using a lvl 50 fear than a tier 7 mez? If our fear and our mez are going to be on the same timer, the Devs might as well get rid of the fear entirely. Or would a situation in which Monks are scarier that Bruisers suggest that <i>maybe</i> something was wrong? As I've said before, I never really used the fear, but others do and so would justifiably like to know the reasoning behind this apparently arbitrary decision.

[Etchii]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out of interest, can anyone think of a situation where you would rather be using a lvl 50 fear than a tier 7 mez? If our fear and our mez are going to be on the same timer, the Devs might as well get rid of the fear entirely. Or would a situation in which Monks are scarier that Bruisers suggest that <i>maybe</i> something was wrong? As I've said before, I never really used the fear, but others do and so would justifiably like to know the reasoning behind this apparently arbitrary decision. </blockquote>Exactly!  Please someone who works for SOE just tell us why.. I used both when I needed to, mostly when solo or on the occasional bad pull in group where someone else already engaged combat so feign won't work.  It's always risky to use because of the threat of adds but sometimes you just have to take the chance in order to survive.

[Etchii]

almost below the page, still no answer.

[tt66]

Oh, something I've been meaning to ask.. The alleged reason for this was that both the Mez and the Fear were put on the same timer to bring them in line "with their descriptions". What actual description are they talking about? The tool tip? Also, purely out of interest, are there any other examples in EQ2 of two different lines, with different icons, being on the same timer? (Now that they've rolled back the change they made to the tier2 achievements, that is)

[Taldier]

<p>Why has there still been no response about this anywhere?  An entire skill line has been arbitrarily made useless for no reason.  Bruisers are already underpowered why would they get their fear line nerfed into oblivion (for absolutely no reason), drag nerfed (again), and their stomp line's damage cut in half in the same patch.</p><p>THIS IS BROKEN FIX IT ASAP</p>

[Etchii]

Bump

[Taldier]

Still waiting for a yes or no answer from a dev.  Will this be fixed or should I just remove fear from my hotbar and try to forget I ever had it?

[tt66]

Come on now, this is getting silly. If it was that important an issue that a dev needed to "fix" it, it's important enough an issue to get some sort of response. If it's not important enough to warrant a response, then why on earth did you decided to remove it? Please tell me that there is at least <b>some</b> sort of deliberation before deciding to remove an ENTIRE FREAKIN' COMBAT ART LINE?? Was there a complaint made about our lvl 50 fear? Was it considered to be overpowered? Was the idea to make more people take the Enhance : Scared Still AA? Two separate Combat Art lines, with totally different progressions, game mechanics and icons, were arbitrarily put on the same timer. Why? Actually.. that's a good point. Since they're on the same timer, does that mean our lvl 50 fear can have it's duration extended by the Enhance : Scared Still AA? Did you even consider that? Look, I know this isn't that big of a deal in the grander scheme of things. And I know that Brawlers need to be pushing for more raid utility before they start really worrying about such a minor thing as a lvl 50 fear. I'm just getting slightly annoyed now, that we lost one of our abilities and <b>NOBODY </b>seems to be able to tell us why.

[Taldier]

bumpity bump bump

[Etchii]

Bump..I'm starting to consider taking a week off, buying a plane ticket, and standing out side of the [Removed for Content] offices with a sign asking about this, and other brawler changes.

[Wargod1968]

Another bruiser waiting for some feedback...

[tt66]

Nobody seems to know.. hey, maybe the darn thing changed <i>itself?</i>I appreciate SOE are busy what with the aftermath of fanfaire and everything, so I've whipped up a handy guide to finding out why this was done. It is offered for your use without charge.1) Find the person who wrote the patch notes, detailing the change in Fear/Mez timers2) Find out who they heard about it from.3) Repeat 2) until you find the person who made the change4) Ask them why they did it.Just... why? That's all I want to know. Why make the change?

[Etchii]

Why is there no response?  They don't care about the players who play an unpopular class.  Just keep paying money.Pay.... pay more moneyyou must paypay pay pay....PAY!

[tt66]

I am, by the way, still looking for an answer here.Just because the Devs have found new and interesting ways to mess with our heads via Rabid Cry and Devastation Fist changes, doesn't mean that all of the points in this thread are any less valid.

[Etchii]

^What he said.

[Uumuuanu]

<p>Response from Devs -</p><p>Sorry we don't play classes we just nerf them.  If you are expecting a response you won't find them as we are off busy reading forums at another site instead of reading our own.  In the meantime you are all being banned for necro rezzing threads and complaining in the forums.</p><p>Response from everyone else -</p><p>We don't want bruisers anyway, they dont have anything to offer, play a healer or wizard or something.</p><p>*goes back to soloing his bruiser*</p>

[Etchii]

I'm not necroing it... i'm healing it =PI refuse to let it die.

[mellowknees72]

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you guys really use the fear ability?  Since monks got the fear i used it a couple times and ended up wiping the group with adds.  Since then it's on my hotbar but never used unless i'm bored and feel like messing with people in the group.</blockquote><p>Nope.  I don't even have it on my hotbar any more.  /shrug.  I guess I never *think* about the fact that I have it.</p><p>If I did PvP, however, I probably would use it a lot. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Etchii]

its very handy when soloing.