Propogation

[ytuy]

<p><blockquote> </p><li>Propogation: Increased bonus from 3% to 4%.</li><p></blockquote></p><p>Just some background, I play a templar/dirge/berserker, so this may be coming out since all my stuff got nerfed...</p><p>But Propogation is currently the best buff for any mage group. It is broken in the way that it effects items and spells, much like LotD and blessings, so when mages stack proc items like they should, it gives such a big increase it is [Removed for Content]. Adding a base % to item procs over powers them since their proc rates are pretty low to begin with. Most of the items will be capped out on how high they can proc with the change, doubling their effectivness.</p>

[Supp]

<p>You know, it endlessly astonishes me how unfairly broken warlocks are. And once in while, there is some reprieve, like propogation. Then you'll have some "person" who comes out onto the boards and announces a /fix for one of the few benefits warlocks get, presumably in an attempt to demonstrate their knowledge.</p><ul><li>Many classes get a L40ish special ability. Warlocks dont.</li><li>4 of the 6 mages get a self int buff. Warlocks dont.</li><li>The aggro rules of EQ2 were not designed with the kind of AoE that locks put out, resulting in so many needless deaths.</li><li>They "fix" Rift so that the hate is so bad for us now that casting it at all is instant death. So much for our Fusion equivalent.</li><li>Enhance:Rift has been bugged for some time, extensively reported, but still not fixed.</li></ul><p>I know, why dont we "accidentally" remove all endline abilities for warlocks entirely for a year or so. That would be cool.</p>

[Foosa]

<p>                  also think about this b4 u start calling for a warlock nerf. to use this line that takes 20 aa's , warlocks lose  1of 2 lines. usally hastesnings or destruction. we lose personal dps for a group buff that increases the groups dps.  just because your classes got wacked dont mean al the others do as well. we have enough problems coming with the new changes to aggro, and now u want to take out the little utility we have ? u wana talk about nerf? as  the last poster did, just look at the change to rift</p>

[Groma]

Considering how [Removed for Content] the entire line is up to propagation, i'd say it should effect item procs, otherwise it is completely useless for a mage group. And, to put it into perspective, my Mystical Orb of the Invoker at base value procs 1.8 times a minute, and with propagation it procs 2.6 times a minute.  So speccing an entire AA line increases the  1minute damage of my warlock by a whopping 400 damage, increasing my dps by 6.66, stack that with a dozen proc items that any warlock is extremely lucky to have, and the entire spell line increases my DPS by 75-100, and the same for the maybe 3 other casters in the group.  Spending 21 AA points, to increase the groups dps by a few hundred, is pretty darn fair and balanced imo. Funny that its a Templar who is having his blessings nerfed in this same LU making the post.  Why don't you fight to keep your buffs the same rather than try to bring down an already struggling class with you.  To date, Warlocks are one of the least played classes, that should tell you something. Disclaimer: I'm no genius, so my math could be off by a small amount. Regardless this is far from overpowered.

[ytuy]

<p>To be honest, I don't know what all you warlocks are crying about... I know rift now causes agro like it should and I know warlocks have the best AoE damage, but thats not what this post is about. It is about Propogation being broken... Going into numbers here is pointless, since every guild performs at a different rate and hince with have different numbers.</p><p>So, Progoation reads that it effects spells. If that was true and it did what it read, this would probably be a needed update if not more. But it effects the % chance on everything, including items. When a base % is added up in a mage group for all items, that is what is overpowered. So it is already overpowered... to add another % for every item that isn't already capped is just lol.</p><p>Maybe they should just fix all these buffs so they actually did what they say and then start chaning the %'s.</p>

[Groma]

<cite>ytuy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To be honest, I don't know what all you warlocks are crying about... I know rift now causes agro like it should and I know warlocks have the best AoE damage, but thats not what this post is about. It is about Propogation being broken... Going into numbers here is pointless, since every guild performs at a different rate and hince with have different numbers.</p><p>So, Progoation reads that it effects spells. If that was true and it did what it read, this would probably be a needed update if not more. But it effects the % chance on everything, including items. When a base % is added up in a mage group for all items, that is what is overpowered. So it is already overpowered... to add another % for every item that isn't already capped is just lol.</p><p>Maybe they should just fix all these buffs so they actually did what they say and then start chaning the %'s.</p></blockquote>Thats what you aren't understanding.  How is it overpowered?  You are saying a 1% increase to proc percentages is overpowered? Hardly.  If you are crying for something to be nerfed/fixed, you need a reason other than that "It's overpowered" without using any numbers to back up your claim.

[Aranieq]

In all honesty propagations should be changed to "legitimatly" effect gear. As an ae class some of our best ability to achieve the zen of ae aggro and our ae dps potential is based on equipment proc.  The description needs to be changed to read effects gear.  it is not over powered.  Warlocks are supposed to be the master of AE and there are few ways to achive that potential without taking equipment proc rates into account.  What good is being a class with ae power and not have the means to achieve it. So it is a great point, ty mr templar, non-warlock "easy to say the main ae class in the game is over powered in ae arena",  that it needs to be changed to effect all equipment procs, I think should go the next step and give it adornment effects as well.  Wizards have ice shape giving them intense group utility to the mage group, warlocks have propagations, it is nothing without the equipment proc and warlocks will be underpowered in comparison to other mages and top tier dps classes.

[miliskel]

propogations is all we offer top a group lol. making it better wil be good but i think it should be more than 4 % lol...10% and i would be happy because i dont like my loss of ae dps to help group nor focused casting so basically i am giving up what i want for my group if it were 10% then it would prolly be better than either of those lines tho . btw , making it 4% instead of 3% means that proc chance will be better but 3% on a 2 times a minute doesnt mean 3 times a minute  yet it does so 4% might be quite good.

[Aranieq]

Well as everyone knows the legality of spell descriptions is always the major argument factor... Propagations doesn't say it doesn't work on equipment procs it says it doesn't work on <u>embedded</u> equipment procs. ie adornments.  Which is the case it does not work on adornments.  So the spell just might be working as intended.  Which would make a lot of sense given the nature of the class, and those likely to be grouped with the warlock.

[miliskel]

for me it seems to work on adornments lol....but grizzfazzles boosts from twice a minute to 3 times which i dont understand lol..

[XeroXs84]

I always thought Its bugged myself, alltho i didnt mind ofc as the effect is pretty nice <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I am still not sure if its really better for overall (group/raid) dps compared to the explosive line, but for now i stick with it.. anyway, the argument of Aranieq seems to be very decent, and i could imagine that this is really what is meant by SoE.. that it effects item procs, but not adorments (which i have no idea if it does as i havent a single proc adorment).

[Gungo]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ytuy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To be honest, I don't know what all you warlocks are crying about... I know rift now causes agro like it should and I know warlocks have the best AoE damage, but thats not what this post is about. It is about Propogation being broken... Going into numbers here is pointless, since every guild performs at a different rate and hince with have different numbers.</p><p>So, Progoation reads that it effects spells. If that was true and it did what it read, this would probably be a needed update if not more. But it effects the % chance on everything, including items. When a base % is added up in a mage group for all items, that is what is overpowered. So it is already overpowered... to add another % for every item that isn't already capped is just lol.</p><p>Maybe they should just fix all these buffs so they actually did what they say and then start chaning the %'s.</p></blockquote>Thats what you aren't understanding.  How is it overpowered?  You are saying a 1% increase to proc percentages is overpowered? Hardly.  If you are crying for something to be nerfed/fixed, you need a reason other than that "It's overpowered" without using any numbers to back up your claim. </blockquote>Its a direct % to item procs and thus overcaps most of them. Hence making all other proc increases and some aa's worthless. That in itself should lend a reason to fix this 1 AA.

[Aranieq]

people don't understand when you are calling for a nerf of a class you HAVE to have numbers, details specific AA's being "useless".  Just saying the general feel is overpowering isn't enough when you are asking to have a classes --class specific--- AA and main group utility removed. you need numbers, facts, examples, not just feelings and unbacked opinion.

[Gungo]

<cite>Aranieq wrote:</cite><blockquote>people don't understand when you are calling for a nerf of a class you HAVE to have numbers, details specific AA's being "useless".  Just saying the general feel is overpowering isn't enough when you are asking to have a classes --class specific--- AA and main group utility removed. you need numbers, facts, examples, not just feelings and unbacked opinion. </blockquote><p> While it is impossible to test every proc, i can easily show you how it overcaps some items. Simply by logging in a warlock w prop and adding in other proc increasing classes like dirge and show it caps item proc rates. You don;t always need to show number to something everyone knows. Just liek the person and the grizzfazzle staff said above. It will not increase beyond the cap. </p><p>You guys still act like warlocks are worthless which is total crap now. Every high end successful guild now uses warlocks. In fact we have 3 in guild. They rock on avatar fights and such. </p>

[Aranieq]

if your argument is every ability in the game that caps a player out needs to be nerfed or removed... we could talk about aggro, haste, stats, spell haste, dps mod, de-aggro/agro redux and so on and so on... great point, lets raise the proc% caps then to make things work more efficiently, thats how haste was handled was it not.  The cap was raised from 100%.  And your example is a specific combination of dirge and warlock.  Not a general thing that happens in every guild, every raid.  You can't call to have a class nerfed on one combination of buffs and state its because the warlock over-caps it.. I don't see you calling to have the dirge brought down. The way to fix things isn't to call to have a class brought down especially classes you don't play it's to find the best way to enhance the mechanics.  It is poor foresight to go to the first option of nerf one side when you have no problem with the other side of that equation (dirge). No one said warlocks were useless we said, don't come around calling for removal of our best and main group utility, that costs us a fair amount of points to get with little return on the rest of the line.  It's like saying well wizards do enough dps lets remove ice shape for no reason they just do too well with it, it increases the groups dps too much, it's too much utility, it's not right I feel it's over powered.  Compared to our mage counterparts wizards.. we parse similar in area of expertise as they do in theirs, compared to our scout counterparts they kill us, most days I'm ok with that.  But not on the days when people are calling to nerf our best utility because they don't like warlock dps level.  Everyone likes to feel useful on the raid, like they bring something special, so unless you are willing to see that dirge's proc chance or the other classes with the ability, nerfed don't come crying for the warlock nerf.  Warlock is just high visibility and hence a target for this issue.  This is why numbers are important because when you call for the nerf it's not the one with the smaller proc chance increase who is overpowering it is the one with the FAR greater proc chance in-crease.  I have no desire to see a dirge nerf since the amount of times the dirge and warlock are together is seldom.. more likely to see the mystic and dirge together ancestry is the same as ours, do you propose to reduce theirs as well? It is un-backed argument that because warlock and dirge together hit the cap need to remove the warlocks ability.  It is too situation to nerf an entire class, either one.

[Hellswrath]

You aren't taking into account the upcoming hate nerfs, Gungo.  Warlocks will still be good afterwards, but our ability to avoid aggro will be even worse than it already is, which is abysmal.  Our dps will be forced down a great deal because more than any other class, we rely on those transfers and hate buffs to not draw aggro.  The only real utility we can provide to compensate for the loss in damage is propogations. Also, not everyone understands your point on rendering certain AAs useless.  I know you referenced dirge AAs.  How does propogations make them useless?  Please include numbers this time, as I am actually interested in seeing your point. However, even if it <i>were</i> to render this AA useless, that doesn't mean it's broken.  A Pally's amends will put hate transfer near the cap and render mage/assassin/swashy class hate transfer nearly useless.  Does that mean amends is broken?  It just means one more way of reaching the cap.  Also, why would you put a dirge in a mage group?

[ytuy]

No one wants them to take it away, but to add another percent to a skill that already caps out almost every damage procing item, causing the rest to be near cap, is not needed. They should leave it how it is or fix the spell to work as intended. I lean for the latter.

[Gungo]

<p>The hate nerfs are over exhaggerated.</p><p>Its a 3% troub nerf.</p><p>And after the change coercer will be able to add a portion of thier hate transfered to the guard which was useless before. Hate gain is still capped. Hate trasnfer becomes higher a 9% nerf to swash but a 17% gain from ceorcer. </p><p>The hate nerfs in regards to warlocks are exhagerated.</p><p>This still has nothing to do with the fact this one ability caps out alot of procing items and spells. </p><p>AND I WAS not saying to add a dirge to a warlock group i was saying its easy to show a warlock caps out item procs by showing a dirge adds nothing.</p>

[bryldan]

I will NEVER understand why people want nerfs to a PVE game. Sry the pvp just does not count in this game because its a side addition to the game itself. This game is not built around pvp so deal with it and quit QQing over everything that actually helps dps.

[ytuy]

<cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will NEVER understand why people want nerfs to a PVE game. Sry the pvp just does not count in this game because its a side addition to the game itself. This game is not built around pvp so deal with it and quit QQing over everything that actually helps dps. </blockquote> PvP? Wrong topic... It is about balance. If it was intended for one dps class to double the effectivness of the whole group's proc items, then they should change the description.

[Aranieq]

as for the comment about not adding 1% to props and making it "work as intended"... there were several points made within the last week or 2 that the spell; 1. IS working as intended -or- 2. SHOULD be considered working as intended. And if the argument is based on classes together capping out proc chance then the probability of those players being grouped is important.  You are calling for an entire class's main group utility to be severely changed based on the possibility of 1 group combo, yet not on of any of the other exact same combo buffs from the other classes with the same ability and even % rate.  I say unless you desire a change to Mystics also with a 3% proc chance buff then how can you call for a warlock nerf? And for warlocks complaining about their class aggro balance... You really have to play a sorcerer to understand it.  It's not a dig but it is a fact that most of our criticism is based on how high our parse is and not understanding what it takes to get it there.  Other classes have their similar issues no doubt but the warlock is THE most visible of the top parsed "annoying" classes.  We are highly visible and therefor a target. We aren't even undisputed top parse We are just one of the top 4, because we are supposed to be.  We aren't over powered in fact most warlocks would like a little more balance brought back to aggro control and I think propagations has made a step towards that.  It would be like saying enchanter stunning epics is overpowered and remove it after they spent years calling for raid ability and got control powers in epic content.  Well warlocks want aggro control, have been calling for aggro ability on par with scout counterparts.  Propagations brings it closer.  <b>To take equipment procs off of propagations or to NOT raise it would be taking away the progress made to balance warlocks in the raid.</b>

[miliskel]

actually i think propogations is a step forward to balancing the class , giving up alot of ae damage or focused casting / casting speeds for a group buff that lowers your dps unless u have quite a few damage proc items for the sake of a group - we aernt a buffer we are a T1 dps class , if it were fair we would have propogations either alot less points spent in that tree or get it when we level to 62 as an anceint teachings.

[Hellswrath]

/agree Araneiq. Also, the change to coercers makes them <i>less</i> useful to the mt group, since now they will require a dirge to cap hate gain%.  Yes, they gain a hate transfer, but the coercer would have to be spec'd for dps to get the full potential out of that transfer, where a swashy or an assassin would put it to better use.  So, no.  This is still a nerf for sorcs.  As for the dirge AAs being useless, you still haven't shown anything, Gungo.  I'm not saying you are wrong, just that all I have seen is conjecture.  My point was that a dirge AA being useless because of a warlock group buff is a moot argument because no one in their right mind would have the two of them together in a raid group, unless you are running with a pally MT.  So the dirge-warlock comparison is pointless. Still, the point stands that this may very well be working as intended.  This whole thread is still a player calling for a nerf based on being upset at their own classes being nerfed.  Why are we entertaining this?  THAT is a question I would love to have a good answer to.

[Skywarrior]

<cite>Aranieq wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say unless you desire a change to Mystics also with a 3% proc chance buff then how can you call for a warlock nerf? </blockquote> I'm not weighting in on this coversation one way or the other but a point of order is called for here.  Mystic Ancestry is, indeed, a 3% proc rate increase; however, it is a single target only group friend buff.  It cannot be placed on more than one character at a time.  As such, it is no where even in the same ballpark for this discussion.

[Aranieq]

<cite>Skywarrior wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aranieq wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say unless you desire a change to Mystics also with a 3% proc chance buff then how can you call for a warlock nerf? </blockquote> I'm not weighting in on this coversation one way or the other but a point of order is called for here.  Mystic Ancestry is, indeed, a 3% proc rate increase; however, it is a single target only group friend buff.  It cannot be placed on more than one character at a time.  As such, it is no where even in the same ballpark for this discussion.</blockquote>The point was made warlock + dirge capped the proc % chance doesn't matter who that mystic puts it on they are at the same % as whoever has warlock + dirge.. it's the same argument just on 1 person.  It still addresses the issue the person called for a nerf based on the % to proc cap being hit with combinations of classes. It is the same thing for the discussion of caps and the feasibility of other classes AA abilities as mentioned above.  And the mystic is a heck of a lot more likely to be paired with a Dirge than a warlock is.  Now please remember I said nerfing any of them for the argument they hit the cap with a combination is uncalled for and leads to unbalanced classes, But you can't say the cap is ok to hit for the mystic and the dirge but not for the warlock or any other class with the ability.

[Aranieq]

p.s. apologies for double post but It's been asked a couple times and haven't seen an answer, I might have just overlooked... What exactly is the dirge's group +% to proc chance number?  It seems silly to debate caps and hypothetical borderline fictional group set ups when there are no true numbers.  I'm not a dirge and don't know this number, anyone have it?

[Mastire]

If they remove prop from working on itemsit will be a useless AA line. Every warlock will go hastings/explosives. As it is now warlocks have 3 choices, adding variity.

[miliskel]

ok. which dev / mod has told u what the proc chance cap is? how else would u know? and why do people think a dirge would EVER be with a warlock? answer those 3 before calling a nerf on the basis that dirges with warlock cap it.

[XeroXs84]

If you think about a raid situation, a dirge will NEVER be with a warlock... so there wont be any outcapping happen with that (If it really caps, nobody knows that realy huh). And for groups, who cares, you sure been already in groups with even 2x same class, they both overwrite each others buffs, and still u play with em.. no biggie huh

[bryldan]

<cite>ytuy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will NEVER understand why people want nerfs to a PVE game. Sry the pvp just does not count in this game because its a side addition to the game itself. This game is not built around pvp so deal with it and quit QQing over everything that actually helps dps. </blockquote> PvP? Wrong topic... It is about balance. If it was intended for one dps class to double the effectivness of the whole group's proc items, then they should change the description.</blockquote> Then crying about it is even worse considering that anything that helps a raid succeed is a good thing not a bad thing. And personally who cares if it said it was a exploding [Removed for Content] as long as its a decent spell i could care less about the documentation.

[ytuy]

<p>If items are like spells, the cap is double the proc rate. No item right now hits the 100% incrase with a 3% propogation buff. You can have two in the same group and the buff stacks.</p><p>Procs with a x time/min with 3% propogation</p><p>1.0 ->1.7, 70% increase</p><p>1.6 ->2.3, 43% increase</p><p>1.8->2.5 38% increase</p><p>2.0->2.7 35% increase</p><p> Procs with 4% propogation, correct me if I am wrong, because I have no warlocks on test.</p><p>1.0 -> 2.0, 100% increase</p><p>1.6 -> 2.6, 62% increase</p><p>1.8 -> 2.8, 55% increase</p><p>2.0 -> 3.0, 50% increase</p><p>Considering the spell says in the description it effects spells, not items... this increase to procs is already too large to be adding anything to the buff. And for a reply to the dirge question... it isn't really a dirge he was talking about. Last I checked when EoF AAs were released, two propogation buffs could be on a group at the same time, but this was a bit off topic imo.</p><p><blockquote>What exactly is the dirge's group +% to proc chance number?</blockquote></p><p>Dirge is +20% in test of the  base value, so a 10% proc will go to 12%. Effects spells(broken)</p><p>Templar is +20% of the base % value, effects spells. Effects items(broken)</p><p>Ancestry is 3% flat increase, Effects spells(broken)</p>

[Aranieq]

We discussed the description on propagations.. it says effects things embedded on items not that it doesn't effect items... ie adornment.  It's an ongoing discussion. and just hitting the cap isn't enough to get a nerf.  Otherwise enchanters would loose their STA line group aggro redux, their would be no point to have coercer harm link points, etc there is a reason that no one class hits the caps but several together can hit the cap.  So that you don't get pigeon holed into 1 group make up for a raid and there are options and combination variables.  Warlocks propagations does not invalidate another classes aa line.

[XeroXs84]

I been raiding in labs recently and tested something that u might find interesting... took me long time to work it out and in nowhere i guarantee the acuracy of this, but this is what my maths showed: Without Propagation grizzfazzle procced over a total time of 45 minutes 72 times ... we only had minor breaks in that time so its quite acurate.. and gives a total procrate of 1,6 ... its ofc bit lower than the stated 2.0 as we had some powerbreaks etc, and also debuffs etc where grizzfazzles doesnt proc. Now, after these 45 minutes, i turned propagation ON... now the results Total time of 52 Minutes, with 94 procs. this means it proced 1,8 times per minute (same as before, including minor breaks etc.) Now I ask u... is propagation really affecting item procs? or is it just a bug that it shows the increased effect on item? an increase of 0,2 times per minute, isnt exactly overpowered, if its an effect of propagation at all..

[Aranieq]

A lot of people have posed the argument that the tooltips is just a bug and it does not effect equipment procs. I myself am on the fence having not seen actual numbers or a good comparison posted anywhere it would make for a good experiment though.