Raid Bias?

[ottugi]

Maybe someone that's more knowledgeable can fill me in on this. Why is that most of the pickup raids I've been in I see that defilers are put in MT group without a question? Without playing a defiler myself, I've decided to look into this matter through unique spells given to each classes and compare them so I know what's what. I've searched the posting but I haven't found a detail listing of spell comparison. All I read is both are similar but Defilers have better buff specially healthwise on MT. I figure I can start one and people that are more experienced can fill in the blanks. Defiler specific buffs: <img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/ottugi/def_buff.jpg" border="0"> Mystic specific buffs: <img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/ottugi/myst_buff.jpg" border="0"> Comment: I had 3 points in Foretelling to boost health by 15% and 4 points to Ancient Avatar for additional Wis,Int I see what people are telling me, Defiler's advantage in buff health here. About 300 hlth more on the first buff. Comparing 499 hlth(Defiler) for 2nd buff with 56sta+57sta for 2nd,3rd (Mystic), I don't know. I need to guess on this. Currently I get about 3health points per sta, so that's roughly 300pts for or less for Mystic with diminishing return? Can I safely say Defilers add about 500 (300 + 200) more health than Mystics in total? I was seriously expecting to see much higher health advantage on Defilers. What do you think? Is the difference that big to matter? Last buff, I don't know what's better: Defiler's single debuff or Mystic's Tank buff.     --------------------- Defiler specific misc: <img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/ottugi/Def_heal.jpg" border="0"> Mystic specific misc: <img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/ottugi/myst_heal.jpg" border="0"> Comment: Maelstrom vs. Oberon Since I see that Oberon for me is so very useful, I'm in favor of Oberon since EOF aa is there to buff it. I have 5 points in this AA. Defiler's small AOE DOT and Grp HOT, Power regen seem good though. I'm not sure what's more useful. Forced Cannibalize vs. Torpor Small DOT and power regen vs. ward and HOT. I don't know. Discuss. I like warding better myself. Defile vs. Bolster 16 sec DOT vs. 36sec MT buff. Again I prefer the mystic buff here. I haven't put any duration expend aa on this one yet. ---- So the general impression I get is Defilers probably last longer with their power regen but it looks to me mystics actually have better buff for the MT.  Am I totally off? Looking at all these I don't really see why Defilers are put as MT healer in raid over Mystics. I'm not sure if it is old stereotypic knowledge people have between two classes prior to EOF that lingers or what. Please share your thoughts fellow Mystics and help enlighten this confused individual. Cheers,

[Baccalarium]

Neither torpor or bolster require you be in the MT group.   So most figure you'll still use them as needed outside the MT group.   Defiler gets put int the group for the.   Main reason defilers get put int he MT group is the better health bufs in the first set of spells you compare,  those are group only.     But yes it does mean the mystic looses chances to bring oberon into play. 

[Ordate]

<p>1st)  Well you are comparing adept 1s.  Most raiders are going to be at the very bare minimum adept 3s.  Most even remotely serious raider will be mastered out.  The values go up some <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>2)  Most raid tanks are well above the curve on sta.  This means the return in hps is much less then what it is for someone sitting near or below the curves break even point.  Having lots of hit points = important.  Some things spike badly especially early on and the tank has to have enough hps to be able to give the healers time to keep him up.  (and mitigate a bunch)</p><p>3)  Defilers have a line that starts with tendril.  Its single target group only.  When target is damaged this spell applies a slow and dps debuff to the attacking creature.</p><p>4)  Defilers are generally the last to run out of mana in a raid.  This can be important in the main tank group on some fights.</p><p>5)  As much as I hate admitting it when you look at everything a defiler has if there are 2 equal players behind the keyboard and both shaman have the same gear, the defiler is going to come out a little ahead in damage mitigation in most situations.  Its a lot of a little extra here a little there but in the end it all adds up.</p>

[ottugi]

Yeah, I thought about using masters for comparison but I figure I'd start with the basic to cover the most common denominator as well for general comparison between Defiler vs. Mystic but I guess for raid purpose, I should have included adept3 or masters as well. As for Sta maxing out, didn't they change the max to 15 * level + 20? So for lvl70 that's 1070 Sta. That's just crazy high, it seems to me. How does the diminishing return get calculated? I would like to know for my mystic specially but also for all other toons as well actually. The originally intension for this posting was that I see whole lot more Defilers nowadays than Mystics (last raid there were 4 Defilers and I was the only Mystic) and I wanted to know what they actually bring that Mystics are lacking and see if it makes more sense to betray before working on my spell improvement. Although I like using Oberon, I think it's situational in use and if Defilers can last long, mitigate more damage, and give more health buff (oh I think I also saw on their EOF aas, they can increase the ward amt as well?), then I don't see the lure in Mystics when compared to Defilers. Given all the above, they just sound like much better healers than Mystics. Or is there something else for Mystics in end game?

[Happa]

As a former Defiler, I can tell you exactly why the Defiler is placed in the MT group above a Mystic -- and it all has to do with their wards. You're making the assumption that Maelstrom is the equal to Oberon, which is wholely wrong. Maelstrom is a tool to be used in a group and is rarely used in a raid, besides, if a Defiler has the need to protect a MT, they going to use another ability. Let us now compair Oberon to Soul Ward. We all know what Oberon does, but Soul Ward reduces the Defiler's HP to 10% and converts all HP lost into a giant ward. Instead of getting stunned, the Defiler only has to worry about healing itself up (solved by a macro to cast Eerie Avenger and then Sacrificial Deliverence on itself). Soul Ward is vastly more useful to a tank since it is an instant cast and leaves the Defiler to continue healing. As for Bolster, why would you waste something like that on a MT? There are some places where it might help with a MT, but honestly, I'd rather use it on a melee or caster DPS. One of my favourite uses for Bolster is on a Necro when they use their lifeburn ability. It really helps them to do more DPS having 20% more health. Another great use is with a macro to use Alacrity and Bolster on somebody. 20% more attributes and 33% less cast time, reuse speed and recovery time has always proven useful. Lastly, I do not see how Bolster and Defile can be compaired at all, they don't even come close to being similar. A Defiler's buffs are more limited than a Mystics as well. The Defiler has great buffs for a tank, but anything else it just falls behind in. Mystics, however, can buff their STR, STA, AGI buff to include INT and WIS. That has to be very handy for a scout or mage. Our Foretelling buff is also more balanced between health and power than the Defiler's Foreboding (which provides much more health and much less power). So coupling these buffs on the melee groups seems to be a much more efficient use of the Mystic's taltents. And face it, if there's an emergeny, we only have one instant ward we can cast. Defilers have three they can cast which will ward for thousands of HP. That's one thing I miss about my Defiler. But as I've said in the post, we have our strengths and as long as we use our buffs and debuffs wisely, we can actually provide greatly to the DPS of other classes. That is something that a Defiler lacks -- they help with DPS, but they're much more specialized in the absorption of damage. I hope this post was helpful in explaining some of the differences between the Defiler and the Mystic. If you have any other questions, I'll answer with the best of my ability.

[Finora]

<p>Actually mystics have 2 instacast emergency wards and of course the DI ability like what all healers get.</p><p>And bolster is extremely useful to cast on a MT when there is a mob that does large amounts of damage very quickly at the start of a fight. </p><p>In a high end we have everything and every class uber super raid guild, maybe it's not that important, but in smaller, lower end raiding guilds bolster can be huge (no pun intended).</p><p>I'd never betray to defiler myself. I like the whole mystic package, even if we didn't get aa in EOF that gave us the increased healing power/debuffing power that defilers got.</p><p>Besides, it isn't the end all be all of raiding to be in the MT group. I sometimes wish I wasn't always in the mt group hehe.</p><p>I must ask about this raid you were on that had 5 shaman! Jeez! was that a pick up or something? Really inefficient hehe to have that many of one sort of healer class, but I suppose if you can only get shamen.</p>

[ShadowyStingray]

Someone else already mentioned the main reasons Defilers are put into the MT group over Mystics most of the time: they have a few in-group only buffs/spells that are superior to anything the Mystic has, and by comparison, several of the Mystic's more 'useful' abilities can be used across a raid, thereby meaning a Mystic does not *have* to be in a MT group to be effective (and it seems you usually only need one per raid these days).  Hard-core raiding is all about min-maxing and building groups that are most effective, and so this favors the Defiler with superior raw HP buffs (not affected by diminishing return curves of stat points like the Mystic's STA buffs) along with some of their other unique in-group only buffs/spells.  Can you raid effectively with a Mystic as an MT shaman?  Of course you can: their basic healing tools (wards) are identical, and their direct heals vary but not by a large margin.  But, if you take a min-max or analytical approach to it, and you have a Defiler around, the reality is, the obvious choice will be to place the Defiler in the MT group based on their given abilities alone. Defilers are definitely the flavor of the month these days.  I remember the 'good old days' when you went months between seeing Defilers.  Now if you stand in East Freeport, you can't throw a stick without hitting one!

[ShadowyStingray]

<cite>Happa wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a former Defiler, I can tell you exactly why the Defiler is placed in the MT group above a Mystic -- and it all has to do with their wards. You're making the assumption that Maelstrom is the equal to Oberon, which is wholely wrong. Maelstrom is a tool to be used in a group and is rarely used in a raid, besides, if a Defiler has the need to protect a MT, they going to use another ability. Let us now compair Oberon to Soul Ward. We all know what Oberon does, but Soul Ward reduces the Defiler's HP to 10% and converts all HP lost into a giant ward. Instead of getting stunned, the Defiler only has to worry about healing itself up (solved by a macro to cast Eerie Avenger and then Sacrificial Deliverence on itself). Soul Ward is vastly more useful to a tank since it is an instant cast and leaves the Defiler to continue healing. As for Bolster, why would you waste something like that on a MT? There are some places where it might help with a MT, but honestly, I'd rather use it on a melee or caster DPS. One of my favourite uses for Bolster is on a Necro when they use their lifeburn ability. It really helps them to do more DPS having 20% more health. Another great use is with a macro to use Alacrity and Bolster on somebody. 20% more attributes and 33% less cast time, reuse speed and recovery time has always proven useful. Lastly, I do not see how Bolster and Defile can be compaired at all, they don't even come close to being similar. A Defiler's buffs are more limited than a Mystics as well. The Defiler has great buffs for a tank, but anything else it just falls behind in. Mystics, however, can buff their STR, STA, AGI buff to include INT and WIS. That has to be very handy for a scout or mage. Our Foretelling buff is also more balanced between health and power than the Defiler's Foreboding (which provides much more health and much less power). So coupling these buffs on the melee groups seems to be a much more efficient use of the Mystic's taltents. And face it, if there's an emergeny, we only have one instant ward we can cast. Defilers have three they can cast which will ward for thousands of HP. That's one thing I miss about my Defiler. But as I've said in the post, we have our strengths and as long as we use our buffs and debuffs wisely, we can actually provide greatly to the DPS of other classes. That is something that a Defiler lacks -- they help with DPS, but they're much more specialized in the absorption of damage. I hope this post was helpful in explaining some of the differences between the Defiler and the Mystic. If you have any other questions, I'll answer with the best of my ability. </blockquote> Soul Ward is castable raid-wide, so this ability alone does not earn Defilers a spot in an MT group.  As was also mentioned, both shaman have identical 'emergency' heals - 1 single target ward, castable raid-wide and one group ward that is obviously group-only.  It really comes down to the unique abilities each class has that are group-only.  And Defilers have some very desirable ones for helping a MT and that is probably not likely to change.

[Decad]

<p>Here's a Defiler's breakdown that I did for my website based off of my Defiler Toon: Abhorrent Shroud / M1 +730 Mit Physical (group) / 340 HP Ward each group member. </p><p>Malevolent Efflux / Adt 3 +280 Hps (group) / +812 Mit Poison (group) / +1015 Mit Disease (group)</p><p>Rapacity / Adt 3 / +66 Str (group) / +582 HPs (group)</p><p>Coagulate / AA / +982 Uncouncious HPs (group)</p><p>Portent / Adt 3 / +421 Power (solo) / +844 HPs (solo)</p><p>Dog-Dog buffs / AA12% Haste / Immune to non-direct AoEs.15% chance short term group AoE immunity. / 24% chance group ward.</p><p>Soul Ward / AA / Converts 90% of my HP to Ward on target. Approx ~6.5k to 7k ward. </p><p>That's also not counting the DPS/Attack Speed debuff proc and Power drain/DoT proc I can put on someone. I also have a spell called Spirit Avenger that last 10 secs or so that will revive my groupmember target with 1k ward, 1k HPs when they die. Pretty sure this has kept my MT alive quite a few times too. So, for the record, the Main Tank class in my group will get: +1700 HPs +982 Uncouncious HPS +421 Power +730 MIT all Phycial attacks +812 Poison MIT +1015 Disease MIT +66 STR +12 Haste plus 340 regenerating ward,  chance of another ward, and 2 procs Everyone else gets: +860 HPS +982 Uncounscious HPs +730 MIT all Physical +812 Poison MIT +1015 Disease MIT +66 Str +12 Haste plus regenerating ward, chance of another ward, chance of AoE immunity *NOTE: I can cast 2 Portents to use up my 5 Concentration slots. I almost always put 1 on MT in my group, and the other on me for the Power. </p>

[ottugi]

<cite>Happa wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're making the assumption that Maelstrom is the equal to Oberon, which is wholely wrong. Maelstrom is a tool to be used in a group and is rarely used in a raid, besides, if a Defiler has the need to protect a MT, they going to use another ability. </blockquote> I realize that the spells in comparison sometimes aren't the similar type of spells. But two classes do not have the 100% similar spells and only way for me to make a comprehensive comparison is to take out all the same spells and compare the remaining spells given at the same level for each classes. At certain levels, either classes do or do not get the type of the spells give to another class as you can see. As for Tendril line for Defilers, I realized I only posted the comparison in wards and buffs and not debuffs. So here it is after going through all the spell lines for both classes. You can make your own judgment here. I gotta run to Target so can't spend too much time commenting on this. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/ottugi/shaman_deb1.jpg" border="0"> <img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/ottugi/shaman_deb2.jpg" border="0">

[ottugi]

I also realized I'm missing the emergency, long recast spells some people have mentioned that Defilers get. Spirit Avenger and such. Mystics get something for the same level. I'm missing the comparion for those spells as well. Darn it! Gotta run though.

[Happa]

<cite>ShadowyStingray wrote:</cite><blockquote> Soul Ward is castable raid-wide, so this ability alone does not earn Defilers a spot in an MT group.  As was also mentioned, both shaman have identical 'emergency' heals - 1 single target ward, castable raid-wide and one group ward that is obviously group-only.  It really comes down to the unique abilities each class has that are group-only.  And Defilers have some very desirable ones for helping a MT and that is probably not likely to change. </blockquote>Soul Ward is NOT castable raid wide, please read the spell again. It is only a "group friend" castable spell. It's only been about a week since my betrayal, I think I'd remember something as useful as that, haha.

[Finora]

Soul ward says it's raid or group friend, just like bolster so I'd assume it was castable raid wide as well.

[ottugi]

After much consideration, adding up numbers, comparing spells, reading some inputs, I think the difference between the two class is really negligible. Without digging each and all spells out, I have listened to people saying one class has this but the other class doesn't has anything to balance that & etc, and I was lead to believe one class was superior, in this case, as a MT healer. But, if you really take a look at the spells they offer here, it really doesn't make much sense to gear towards one class. But as this thread can show, people often do not have the full picture and refer to one benefit while omitting the counterpoint of the opposite class. One thing that I am learning from dealing with the rigidly structured raid is that you really don't give any opportunity to make your guild members learn to be the best they can be if only certain setup is used predominantly. What happens if that one class you rely on is out sick on a raid night or that member quits the guild totally? Wouldn't it be better to have everyone in your team be able to step up and perform equally as well? What happens if class balance drift to another direction but people remain in their old game mechanics and wouldn't know better to adept? I don't know. I'm digressing a little... Anyhow, as it stands, I was thinking of jumping on the bandwagon and betray but I think Mystic is more adaptable and flexible for how I like to play. That is a good mix of solo, small groups and some raids. I would hate to lose the ability to farm nameds with ease and it'll be painful to deal with interrupts with Defiler's reliance on spell damages when I do solo. I do well as a healer with my Mystic now. So I am quite happy actually being a Mystic. I can see why a lot of people betray and rebetray and betray, etc..... It tells a lot about how equally great both shaman classes are.

[Bobbette]

Ottugjr, I agree with you. My shaman started out a defiler long ago, I got bored and betrayed her to mystic to hopefully get my enthusiasm up, leveled her more then heard about the EoF AAs & diminishing returns changes & how much a defiler would rock ... I betrayed her back to defiler and leveled her more.  Then, two things happened.  One, I saw how many defilers were running around right after (I guess some betrayed like me) and thought this can't be very balanced having all these defilers.  The 2nd thing that happened was, I realized I really preferred playing the mystic ... it was a close call but it was a smidge ahead. Defilers may have cannibalize and buff more straight hitpoints ... but mystics can buff alot more varied things ... and in raids can do more from outside the MT group.  I just see them as slightly more versatile in that regard.  I like versatility.  My mystic is a spare healer alt so I knew that she'd rarely/never be in the MT group and thus the versatility of mystic buffs would really suit an OT or dps group. All of that to say ... yup I agree with you.  Defilers might be FoTM given the current game mechanics but Mystics really aren't the ugly stepchild, we bring just as much to the table, it's just different.

[Rayche]

Don't forget Umbral Mettle for Mystics, which gives the group massive resists against Poison and Disease as well as around an extra 340 hps at Master 1. Another goodie is M1 Runic Aegis, which gives somewhere around 730 physical mitigation and a regenerating 132 point ward against physical attacks, whereas the Defilers Abhorrent shroud gives 530 points of mitigation against MAGICAL damage. In my experience the 132 points per tick for the whole group against physical is way more beneficial against raid mobs over the course of an evening than against magical damage. It also minimizes or completely counteracts the effects of damage shields as I see it preventing 132 damage on every party member constantly against mobs with damage shields. If I was near my EQ2 computer I would list the enormous set of effects that make Mystics ideal for the MT group as well, but I'm not atm. Soul ward rocks, and the increased mana regen rocks, and Defilers are a great class to have on raids, but I've seen no reason to use them over Mystics in the MT group.

[le Rêveur]

Tank may loose a little hp with mystic in MT group, but he will also have way more str and do more dmg <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[thedu]

le Rêveur wrote: <blockquote>Tank may loose a little hp with mystic in MT group, but he will also have way more str and do more dmg <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> You don't need the tank to do damage, you need the tank to hold aggro.  Yes, I know dps generates aggro. As for being part of the MT group - I don't really care.  The real concern should be about completing the raid.  If it works out better with a defiler then so be it.