Tradeskill arts - discussion of changes

[Domino]

As you may or may not be aware, there will be some changes required to the tradeskill arts around the same time as Kunark comes out.  This post is about those changes.  It is focusing solely on the tradeskill arts, the ones you press to counter events or to improve your crafting, not the differences between what happens if you don't counter events (let's call that the penalties).  The penalties are a discussion for another day. Regular forum readers may recall <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366846" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this earlier discussion</a> thread.  There were lots of comments on that thread, many of them even on topic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I've just re-read the entire thing to refresh my memory.  Consider this part 2, after hearing all the feedback and doing much pondering and head-scratching. <b>What general issues are the changes aiming to fix?</b> <ol><li>An improved tutorial and/or more availability of in-game information on how to use your reaction arts is currently lacking</li><li>Once lower quality levels no longer yield a product, everyone at every level will need to be able to make pristines.  In particular, low level folks will need some kind of durability buffs.</li><li>Tradeskill arts currently do not always upgrade (ie, lower level ones can be better than higher level ones) and this is annoying.</li><li>Knowledge books are chock-a-block full of tradeskill arts, many of which are rarely used.  Cutting down on clutter and making it easier to find the arts you need is a good goal.</li></ol>In addition, any changes should minimize inconvenience to existing crafters who have developed their own methods and may well like it the way it is.  A total rewrite of the tradeskill system is not going to happen at this time.  What will realistically happen at this time is a rebalancing of the existing tradeskill arts to address the above requirements, without major alterations to the way it works. <b>How will we address these issues?</b> <ol><li>Improving/adding crafting instruction through a number of ways is something that we plan to do with the Kunark expansion.  Depending on time restrictions, this could even go in earlier ... or continue being improved later.  Some ideas include: more purple ? pop ups, better instruction dialog from NPCs, possibly an in-game reference book, an in-game NPC in the crafting areas who will answer crafting questions at any time and regardless of your level, better guides on EQ2players and in in-game help documentation.  Most likely not all of these will be necessary but some combination should solve this point.</li><li>Two obvious options present themselves for giving durability buffs to low levels.  Option A, switch around the tradeskill arts in the order they are given.  So, at level 1 you get the +durability arts, at level 10 you get the +progress, at level 20 more +durability ... the reverse of how it is now.  Which makes sense as far as crafting goes -- first you concentrate on slow and cautious crafting, then as you advance your skill you learn more ways to speed up your progress.  Option B, get all 6 tradeskill arts at level 1, then don't get the next 6 for 20 levels.  So essentially, at level 1 you would get the arts you currently get at level 1 +10, then at level 20 you would get the arts you currently get at 20+30, and so on.</li><li>Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar.  Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements.</li><li>The above point would address this issue also, though we may be able to do other UI type things that would also make the arts you need for making your current item be easier to go directly to. </li></ol> So, that's the general plan on how things will work.  But the devil is in the details, as they say.  There are 9 classes, with 9 different tradeskill arts at each level that essentially do the same thing.  For example looking at tradeskill arts that increase progress at the expense of reducing success chance, the first version of this that each class gets is: <ul><li>Carpenter: "Concentrate" +28 progress, -6% success chance</li><li> Armorer: "Isothermic" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Provisioner: "Seasoning" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Woodworking: "Measure" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Sage:  "Notation" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Jeweler:  "Focus of Spirit" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Alchemist:  "Reaction" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li> Tailor:  "Nimble" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Weaponsmith: "Tempering" +9 progress, -6% success chance</li></ul> Most of these are essentially the same ratio of progress to success chance, with the exception of carpenters, who clearly lucked out, and weaponsmiths, who clearly got the short straw when this art was created.  A combination of slight discrepancies like carpenter and weaponsmith is what currently makes some classes "feel" more difficult or faster to progress than others, though in most cases the arts of most classes are pretty similar. <b>The question remaining is ... </b> Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others. Interested in hearing opinions on this from anyone who has any thoughts on the matter:  how to guarantee upgrades are really upgrades, and that no class is seriously worse off than the others, without making everyone identical.  Or is identical good?  Feel free to deposit your 2cp worth below.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <i><span style="font-size: xx-small">*Edit: typo*</span></i>

[ashen1973]

<p>I think that no one class should be harder/easier than any other to play. But that said, I also believe that each class should be different enough so that a different approach is required to gain pristine.</p><p>I would also like to see it changed so that the highest skill coiunter you currently possess is always clearly the best to use, this would cut down on knowledge book clutter.</p><p>Something I would like to see is it made much harder to produce pristine versions of special recipes (i.e rare, quested or looted).</p><p>With the new system of returning the rare component on failure, this would be fair.</p><p>maybe a system where special counters are gained through quests etc...  Or even where counters can be upgraded (in a similar vein to app/ad/master combat arts/spells)</p>

[Captain_Xpendab]

About the reaction arts, my vote is for option A, I also like the idea of auto-updating the arts. One thought I have (which will probably be filed under "Porcine Aviation" <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), I think we blow through the Artisan levels to fast. We don't really get much of a chance to try out all the tradeskills before we're asked to make a choice. Would if be possible to extend the Artisan levels to 20, and eliminate the sublclass levels? Then a player will really get a chance to try everything out with all the reaction arts. I also wonder if one of the tutorial ideas could address the "hidden bar" of success chance? I'd like to know things like "what does the success chance start at for the con of the item?" and "Is they're anything I can do that raises success chance while crafting?"

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar.  Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements.</blockquote><p>You mean the way the Mastery icons auto-upgrade.  If that is what you mean I'm all for it.</p><p>On the progress and durability icons, I would like to see the 'sameness' of the icons replaced.  If you suggest giving them both out at the same level, make them 'look' different.  All my tradeskillers have all six icons in the hot bar, so that I can pick-and-choose what I need depending on TS writs or MC combines.  What I suggest is create borders for the current icons so that they are easily identifiable.  For progress I would suggest blue, for durability green.  Why? because those are the same colors of the durability and progress bars in the progress window.  This would allow new crafters to follow and understand their mentors.  I think the sameness of these icons is what confuses newbie tradeskillers...</p><p>Please get rid of the 'other' reactives buttons.  Apothecary, etc...  There use went away with LU24.  I know they are still in use for some quests and such, but if you give out durability buffs at lvl 1, quests could be migrated to use the TS reactives rather than the pre LU24 reactives.  This will clear out the TS skill tab and lessen the confusion to newbies</p><p>As for the reactives for each specific class, I would like them all to give the same result.  This type of 'sameness' does not take away from the class specifics of each of tradeskillers.  Mostly, all trandskillers just want pristine.  These class-specific wrinkles need to be ironed out IMHO.</p><p>Oh, and lastly, in your previous thread I had suggested raising the specialization levels to 20 and 40 instead of the current 10 and 20.  Kunark will raise the cap to 80, and I'm afraid any new tradeskiller will be hard pressed to reach 80 with an outfitter or craftsman.  Another reason for this change is it will allow new tradeskillers to try different tradeskills out before taking the plunge into their first specialization.  As it is now, you level to 10 too quickly and really don't get a 'taste' for each TS.</p><p>Erm...guess that is enough for now <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Mighty Melvor]

<p>Oh by the way Domino....you rock!!!</p><p>Thank you for listening and communicating with us in the forums.  You are a breath of fresh air to the EQ2 community.</p>

[Domino]

Ashenshugar@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>I think that no one class should be harder/easier than any other to play. But that said, I also believe that each class should be different enough so that a different approach is required to gain pristine.</p><p>I would also like to see it changed so that the highest skill coiunter you currently possess is always clearly the best to use, this would cut down on knowledge book clutter.</p></blockquote>Three worthy goals ... but the question to wrestle with remains ... "how"  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>I'm one of the crafters that crafts with my knowlege book open and not from hotbars - so I actually use the previous 4 tiers of buffs that I have when crafting.  One of the main reasons for this is that my lower lvl progress buff adds more progress than my upper lvl one and i can get done with the combine faster.  The second reason is the durability buff that costs power.  I almost never use the last one that gives me +20 durabilty becasue the one that gives me +15 durability is much more power efficient in my eyes.  I feel i can use it two out of three round or tics and not run out of power if i'm using a totem and drink.  If I use the +20 durbility buff I can only use it about once every 3 rounds - so by using a lower level buff i'm managing my power better.  </p><p>I would like to have a better way to sort my arts in my knowledge book, so that I could designate how the arts are orderd (fletching then chemistry then geomancy, etc) instead of just by level or by type, or possible a primary tab that would hold your main buffs (fletching skills for a woodworker) and a secondary tab that would hold all your others so thaty they can be organized better.   </p><p>And Better Buffs or progresive buffs (and counters) for transmuters and tinkerers.</p>

[Captain_Xpendab]

Mighty Melvor wrote: <blockquote> What I suggest is create borders for the current icons so that they are easily identifiable.  For progress I would suggest blue, for durability green.  Why? because those are the same colors of the durability and progress bars in the progress window. </blockquote>That is an Excellent suggestion. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[AbsentmindedMage]

Domino, I have to admit that you have had some really great ideas for the direction of crafting.  But even the best of us has to come up with a bad idea occasionally. I think it is good idea to make items have one classification.  However, I think it is not a good idea to label that classification as pristine.  In other words, a player shouldnt have to get the fourth row to get an item.   I would say that the 3rd row should be target as that is the normal item!   It makes no sense that a player is going to invest time and money and resources and end up with losing the resources and getting only meager amount of what they put in back.  Not every profession is equal despite what others may say.  Some professions it is completely random as to whether you can get pristine quality as you are just entering that level.   It seems to me that you are thinking only about people who have already leveled up.  What about the people just starting.   They keep trying over and over again loosing out and getting no experience and only loss.   If they cant gain experience, they will not get better to be able to make the 4th row of an item! Please see reason and make it the 3rd row for the item.  If a person is paying attention and doing their best they can make the 3rd row of an item that is at their level.   If you want to give people benefits for making it to the 4th row so be it but the item and the experience should be gotten at the 3rd row (normal item).

[Captain_Xpendab]

But that's what she's trying to address, adjusting things so everyone has an equal chance to get a pristine. On that note, I think all arts should be equal, the "flavor" comes from what you can create and sell.

[Giland]

I don't think different classes should have different qualities of arts. Having better arts at lvl 20 and worse at lvl 60 just means you get screwed at 60 when going from 60 to 70 which is much, MUCH harder than going from 20 to 30. (an example only) While on the surface, having an art overwrite the older art sounds good, but sometimes, when low on power, using a lower level art to push just a little more is helpful. Higher combat arts do not replace lower combat arts. Higher qualities of a specific art overwrite lower qualities. There is an idea for you ! Give us app1 reactive arts, and allow us some way to get maybe adept 1 versions, maybe give us a master II version every x4 levels. Give each class the ability to create appIV reactives, then give a quest to get adept I, and allow rares to be turned into Adept IIIs. Have some Masters be quested or drop off mobs (no flaming, I don't want to hear "crafters are to dependent on adventurers now!&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Powers]

I kinda like Giland's idea, actually.  It's radical, but it just might work.  Maybe Masters could drop as a result of a rare tradeskill event -- call it Carpenter's Discovery, with your successful counter granting you deeper knowledge of how to counter events in the future. Giland's idea eliminates the problem we have now, where the reaction arts you want to use may not grant skillups because they're too far below your current level. However, I would hate to lose the ability to choose which reaction arts to use.  Maybe that wouldn't be necessary if Adept I was a clear upgrade over Apprentice I, but it still seems like we'd lose a bit of flavor. Also, the differences would have to be small since (unlike mobs), recipes' durability bars don't get bigger as you level up. Powers  &8^]

[Captain_Xpendab]

I think a better way would be to adjust the way power is used when you have a high adventure level. You shouldn't need to keep lower level arts because the upper levels drain your power to fast.

[Rast]

<p>How about something like this Domino?</p><p>All crafting abilities start at apprentice 1 at level 1 (ie, as soon as you select the desire to learn)</p><p>Every 5 levels, you get the ability to improve a single ability by one level (app I to app IV to ad1 to ad3 to M1).  This puts more control in the hands of the crafter as to what gets improved and allows some level of customization.  Since you would only have the ability to upgrade 16 times by the time you are 80 (so you could go jack of all, or specialize into a couple lines). (ala the racial trait system and upgades similiar to the AA system, which is where I got the idea from)</p><p>Then, every 10 levels (or 20) you can throw in some 'fun' ability (non upgradable) that can be used, like an extra durability push, or an extra progress push, or something that boosts your success chance, power reduction, etc.  to allow us to customize it even further, would need alot of these to make it 'fun' though.</p><p>The benefit I see to something like this (though my 'balance' may be off some) is that you only have to create the ability once and then apply an formula to increase it, similiar to what you'd do for adventure abilities and books anyways.  Also, it opens up a level of customization based on the personality of the crafter and possibly the addition of group crafting down the road (since different people will specialize in different ways, it'd be possible to almost assign archtypes based on specializations), which could open up some new and potentially exciting avenues in crafting.</p>

[Deson]

My earlier feedback remains largely unchanged. I still say the best way to go about this requires giving crafting it's own Hp/pow/stat pools so you can escape percentage based crafting and expand in other directions. Whatever gets decided, it can't make doing lower level crafts too easy/fast for higher level crafters to preserve the competition and "costs" balance that currently exists.

[Jrral]

One thing on the "new versions replace old": I often run into a situation where I just need to counter an event with, say, the art that costs power. I don't need progress or durability. I may want to conserve power against a bad run of the RNG. I may simply be low on power, enough left for the lowest-cost art but not the most current one. Either way, in that situation I go for my lowest-level (lowest-cost) art. It's even more the case when the event requires countering with the P/D art: if my durability is down and my progress is still nowhere near filling the first bar, I need to use the progress-cost version and I want the absolute lowest cost I can get away with (the first progress bar is always the hardest to fill for me). I don't think we need more than a pair of each, but we do need a choice between minimum-cost and maximum-result IMO.

[ashen1973]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ashenshugar@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>I think that no one class should be harder/easier than any other to play. But that said, I also believe that each class should be different enough so that a different approach is required to gain pristine.</p><p>I would also like to see it changed so that the highest skill coiunter you currently possess is always clearly the best to use, this would cut down on knowledge book clutter.</p></blockquote>Three worthy goals ... but the question to wrestle with remains ... "how"  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> This is the big question isnt it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> thinking about the solution makes me realise how easy it is for all of us to dump our ideas/wishes on you without taking into account just how they would be accomplished <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>To give each class a different 'stlye' maybe have it so they get different specialties in counters.</p><p>i.e carpenters get higher +progress but more -success</p><p>tailors get higher +durability but more power cost</p><p>sages get lower power costs but a little less durability and progress.</p><p>It would require some testing to see if this works out fairly (in regards to average time taken to achieve a pristine item). But I would think it should average out the same in the end (time wise)</p><p>Could even introduce a new item, such as a crafters toolbelt or apron. This item could have set stats, that help any crafter. But also be able to take an adornment. Each crafter could then have the choice of adorns to try and counter the weakness there class has. </p><p>Using the above examples, a carpenter would add a +success adorn, tailor add a -power cost adorn.</p><p>The normal counters could be kept quite basic.</p><p>with a set negative amount for each counter and an increasing positive.</p><p>again, using carpenter as an example</p><p>at level 12 -8% success +12 progress</p><p>at level 22 -8% success +18 progress</p><p>at level 32 -8% success +26 progress</p>

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ashenshugar@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>I think that no one class should be harder/easier than any other to play. But that said, I also believe that each class should be different enough so that a different approach is required to gain pristine.</p><p>I would also like to see it changed so that the highest skill coiunter you currently possess is always clearly the best to use, this would cut down on knowledge book clutter.</p></blockquote>Three worthy goals ... but the question to wrestle with remains ... "how"  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Keep in mind that you can also adjust each combine so that the different quality levels require more progress to become pristine.  If you take your eyes off of the four progress bars and look at the top, you notice that some combines are easier to obtain pristine, while with others, its easier to escape the crude stage.  I suggest you re-adjust these for 'flavor'.  I think that any permanent items, such as armor, weapons, jewlery etc should have a harder combine time to obtain pristine.  While consumable items, such as food, drink, ammo, totems are easier to achieve pristine.</p><p>Thoughts? </p>

[Martrae]

<blockquote> Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now. </blockquote> Honestly, the tradeskill arts are not what make the classes feel different. They all essentially do the same thing anyway so they should provide the same benefits/deficits to all.

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a better way would be to adjust the way power is used when you have a high adventure level. You shouldn't need to keep lower level arts because the upper levels drain your power to fast. </blockquote> I think as each art is upgraded each tier, the reactive should improve (as suggested).  I would iron out the power consumption for all the reactives across the board (as a % of total power).  Then you would always want to use the upgrade and the issue resolved.

[zhiDarkivel]

I think the different numbers are a fairly meaningless way to differentiate between the classes. I have crafters of every class except for jeweler, and my provisioner feels very different from my tailor, but never because I'm thinking about how one's art gives a few more points of progress than the other. I do notice that it's easier and faster to get pristines on some than others. I love guild writs on the tailor. Fear and loathe them (and occasionally fail them) on the sage. I would like to vehemently request that you not reduce the number of reactions we have to choose from. On every character, I use most if not all of the levels of arts. Sometimes I have to conserve mana (especially on higher adventure level crafters.) Sometimes the highest progress/success chance or durability/success chance reduces success change too much. Especially in the high-stress world of timed guild writs, it's a feeling of comfort and security to have a wide range of options any given round. Besides, our adventurer sides have spellbooks full of abilities -- I don't see why it's bad for crafters to have the same thing. It makes the classes feel more substantial and less the embarrassing night job.

[Beldin_]

<p>I would like to see a "real" progress in the better arts .. at the moment, even if its not the case that maybe the progress from a level 40 art is maybe better then from a 20, at least it evens out, so that maybe the 20 is +20% progress -8% success and the 40 is +30% progress but -12% success.</p><p>In the end i personally use on all my crafters mostly the level 20/30 arts even with level 70 <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Also as level 70 crafter you shouldn't have to use nearly the same time to craft a level 10 receipe then for a level 70 receipe. </p><p>Ahh .. and btw. the mana-costs should be a fixed value that refers to the regeneration of the drinks of the current tier, because currently classes with a higher manapool need much more mana then classes with a low manapool.</p><p>For example .. Wizard has 3000 mana .. art costs 10% = 300 mana .. drink gives 100 regen = 3 ticks to regenerate the mana</p><p>Warrior has 2000 mana .. art costs 10% = 200 mana .. only 2 ticks for regeneration.</p>

[Liyle]

I like the idea of having durability and progress available from level one. I think it will make learning and teaching tradeskilling easier. We actually had this issue come up today in the noob channel and trying to explain to the person that he wouldn't get a full set till he was 10 didn't make any sense to him. He had been trying to make Pristine things with his 3 little Progress buffs and thought what he needed to do was practice more before he chose his profession branch. I don't know if we were able to get through to him or not that he was hobbled at level 9 and that the first 9 levels were not the same as the next 61! It makes no sense for the first tier to be the hardest. I can crank out Pristine Horned Leather Backpacks all day, but please don't ask me to make a Pristine Alder Greatstaff! One thing I do and a lot of crafters I know do also, is use a 3x4 system for their hotbar buffs in crafting. This lets you have two columns of progress and two of durability in a twelve-slot hotbar (one full power set and one for low power emergencies.) I do the same in adventuring, esp for healing. I like the idea of the "replacement" style upgrades but I really don't want the previous version to disappear. Having it be similar to adventuring progressions would be better. As for the Knowledge Book... why on earth is the TS section based on 4x4? This has always mystified me because it makes no sense. Kind of like the hotdogs vs buns thing... However, I'm a little apprehensive about the idea of "cleaning up" the clutter.... just like IRL, I'm afraid that something I need will get thrown out with the trash. (Edit) Almost forgot to comment on the "flavor" issue... Until you told us, I didn't even know this was so. There's enough random variation in each combine that the overall differences are pretty much lost, so I don't honestly think it will make any noticable difference to have them be uniform across all classes. I think that the flavors should be more pronounced and implemented somewhere else. as it is they just get lost in the noise.

[Captain_Xpendab]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote> I still say the best way to go about this requires giving crafting it's own Hp/pow/stat pools so you can escape percentage based crafting and expand in other directions. </blockquote>I wonder if they could adapt the mentor system? Set it up so that whenever you start crafting something, your adventure level gets scaled to a set level (all "behind the scenes", hidden from the player) and then adjust the power use and major counter failure penalties to that level.

[Meio]

I see 3 points where the classes are not the same atm: 1. overall number of recipies 2. number of recipies used in rush orders 3. reaction arts What should not be is, that one class has an advantage/ disadvantage in all 3 points. For example if a class use 6 different recipies in a rush order and has 'bad' reaction arts, it will be 'harder' to finish rush orders. If that happen it would be really bad if that is a class with only 1-2 recipies per level. What I would really wish is, that you scrap the existing crafting method and introduce something which is really fun and is more based on skill then on a random generator.

[DasUberFuzzy]

my god, am i really seeing this? is cant be really happening? finally, after a year of complaining, (and fighting with calthine), a review of the ts arts! whee! domino, i want to have your babies.

[pointytail]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote> I still say the best way to go about this requires giving crafting it's own Hp/pow/stat pools so you can escape percentage based crafting and expand in other directions. </blockquote>Shalla@Valor wrote: <blockquote><p>Ahh .. and btw. the mana-costs should be a fixed value that refers to the regeneration of the drinks of the current tier, because currently classes with a higher manapool need much more mana then classes with a low manapool.</p><p>For example .. Wizard has 3000 mana .. art costs 10% = 300 mana .. drink gives 100 regen = 3 ticks to regenerate the mana</p><p>Warrior has 2000 mana .. art costs 10% = 200 mana .. only 2 ticks for regeneration.</p></blockquote> The dur/prog at the cost of dur/prog or the % success chance are working great, as far as I'm concerned. It's the dur/prog at the cost of power that I honestly think could use some tweaking in the long level run. The regeneration of power vs. the size of our power pools isn't consistent enough as you progress onwards in levels as an Adventurer, as Shalla does point out. Deson suggests a completely separate set of stats to combat this indirectly, I suppose. He probably has other ideas behind his suggestion. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another idea that I can think of is a reduction in the percentage cost as the tiers go on or a permanent reduction. But have no suggestions on amounts to reduce by or minimum percentage amount due to lack of knowledge on how such a thing will affect the crafting experience overall and things needed to be done to get it to happen.

[Besual]

How would you balance "weaker" reaction arts vs. "stronger" arts? The class with few recipes per tier gets better arts and the class with more recipes gets weaker ones? The total progress needed for classed with weak arts is less then the total progress needed for the strong ones (aka a class with  +9progess -3%success need 900 total progress and a class with +15progress -3% success needs 1500 total progress?) Of course the would result in the same behavior as when all classes would have the same reaction art values. That's why I'm for the "all are equal" approach. How to improve the reaction arts? I would like to have only one set of arts for each class and these arts improve at level x0. "auto updating" sounds boring. I would prefer a quest every tier to earn these updates. And I would add stances: defensive / normal aggressive crafting. When you go "defensive" the penalty of the arts is cut in half and the bonus is cut to 3/4 (aka your +20progress -6%success turns into +15progress -3%success). The normal stance changes nothing and the aggressive stance increase the penalty by 1/3 and improves the bonus by 50% (aka your +20progress -6%success turns into +30progress -8%success). Switching the stance during the crafting process could cost a good chunk of mana. With these stances you could craft slow but safe on a yellow recipe (defensive) or speed craft a green / gray recipe (aggressive).

[MrWolfie]

<p> My 70 crafters all use old arts. I would not be in favour of having my arts "upgrade" automatically, especially if you're going to make those arts different for every class. Guaranteeing that I'll be better off with the new arts is something which I feel will be very difficult to deliver (I know a lot of crafters like to use old arts that consume less power, for example, and wouldn't the -% success change too?). Leaving me with the choice to use old arts, and to overwrite new arts with old ones during the crafting process (a change you just put in) is the best option from my perspective. However, that said, if I were to change things, I would:</p><p>1. Starting Tradeskilling: </p><p>Better dialog from NPCs, beginning with an instruction to look in the knowledge book and move the tradeskill arts to a hotbar. An explanation that buffs need to be used to counter events AND to improve the skill check outcomes if there's no event to counter that "round". An in-game NPC in the crafting areas who will answer crafting questions at any time is a great idea. As for purple ? pop-ups, I hate them with a vengeance. They always pop-up under my hotbars (top right of my screen) and even though I've been informed there's a method of turning them off (instructions_ignore_all 0/1 in the eq2.ini) that doesn't seem to work. We definately need a reliable method of turning off purple ? pop-ups before we get more of them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>2. Tradeskill Arts:</p><p>What makes crafters different is what they make and what components they use. When we get to 70 our TS arts are roughly the same across the board, then we choose the ones we like best and stick to them.</p><p>I'd propose removing all the arts and giving the level 1 crafter six buttons to press, select the best tradeskill arts from the current 21 (for each class) that exist now and give those straight away. Do not upgrade. These stay the same for the life of the crafter and they never "grey out". No more new skills every ten levels, you continue to use the ones you were told to use at the outset. You continue to get skill ups using these skills.</p><p>If you insist on flavour, you could give each class the best nine buttons at the outset (instead of six). Do this right, and you'll never have to look at TS arts ever again. </p>

[Meio]

<cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>How would you balance "weaker" reaction arts vs. "stronger" arts? The class with few recipes per tier gets better arts and the class with more recipes gets weaker ones? The total progress needed for classed with weak arts is less then the total progress needed for the strong ones (aka a class with  +9progess -3%success need 900 total progress and a class with +15progress -3% success needs 1500 total progress?) Of course the would result in the same behavior as when all classes would have the same reaction art values. That's why I'm for the "all are equal" approach. </blockquote>Like I wrote it, if one class has an advantage in point 3 (reaction arts) he would get a disadvantage in one or both of the other 2 points.

[cgi-bin]

If you want true equality just have 6 reaction art types that are shared between all classes instead of 6 for each. Perhaps a few new types? (+success/-prog/-dura, etc) As for the power problem with using %, most people have realized that co-ed naked tradeskilling is the way to go, with having the best drink. I'd imaging this is going to be tough to balance because of the inherent nature of different class/race/adv levels will have different power pools and the lower the base pool and the better the drink, the more advantage you have. One possibility is to put the player in "combat mode" so that the drink won't add the bonus while you are actively crafting. Yes, the problem will still exist between making items, but it would be reduced a little. Or even more radical, would be to make the trade-skill instance put you into this mode, and over-ride the power regen to be a flat % as well (ignore drink). This wont work for remote-crafting stations and those in the normal city zones or player housing, so it probably wouldn't be feasible... just putting the idea out there. Maybe once you begin a crafting session, it puts a buff on you that would have that effect for a minute or 2 after you finish? I like the idea of switching the order they are received so you get the 3 durability ones first. Or just giving all 6 to begin with would be ok too. I also like the thought of just auto-upgrading the buttons in place every 10 or 20 levels. The concern that some people expressed with lower tier arts being "better" would be worked out if each tier was always an upgrade. I think as long as the power cost is a constant % and as you gain tiers the benefit side gets better, then no one would complain (ie. power cost is always 10%, but +progress for t1 would be +5 and t8 would be +20). The same would apply to the other arts, but you would have more options to improve them each tier... some tier the positive benefit would improve, some tiers the negative would improve. You could I guess do this with the power art by reducing the % power level. I like the idea that was suggested for possible implementing the trait system like is used for adventuring levels. Perhaps one trait could be a reduction in the power cost by 0.5%. Another thing I'd like to see is a journal or notation of what the events do when I react to them or not. To RP it, it would be like I noticed some event and afterwards I jotted down what happened. Maybe make it like the creature type tracking say when you counter 100 of event X you learn something about it, or get a bonus against it? Like the creature mastery abilities? Also for the UI, you could just add the 6 buttons that represent the best 6 arts for that skill directly in the tradeskill window. (with option to hot-key them for those who prefer that)

[Jesdyr]

I think the current system works well. I dont think there is any need to change it. (maybe reorder the progressions that seem wrong) Rightnow you have many options about how to craft. In the end it is about a balance of risk vs time. The faster you attempt to craft the more risk you are talking. The power pool thing is something that serious crafters have no problem getting around (use totems/good drink/non-buffing gear/manastone/potions/../..). Just because some people dont take the time to learn what they are doing is no reason to rework the system. All that is needed is a better in game system to help players understand how to craft. I would hate to have 6 skills that get replaced every level. Rightnow I use a mix of skills from each level. Rarely are these the "best" skills. I keep the highest possible progress arts on my bar as well. These are only used when countering (12% inc to fail is not worth it normally).

[Jrral]

I don't generally worry about TS arts in T1. I run the Tradeskill Profession quest, make a few extra combines when the item XP plus the quest XP aren't quite enough to ding me to the next level, and I'm ready to ding 10 where I have my full set of 6 arts. It'd make it easier on new players, though, if they got their durability buffs in T1. That'd probably eliminate the need for those extra combines because of blowing pristine. I say either change it to give durability first or give the full set of 6 initially. The SaTP quest pretty much guarantees that T1 goes by quickly anyway. As for upgrades, I favor having 2 of each art from T2 on. Set 1 is minimum-cost, the first ones you get. Set 2 is maximum-result, which upgrade as you level up. My vote's for giving all of set 1 at level 1. At 10 you get set 2's durability buffs, 20 progress, 30 improve set 2's durability, 40 improve set 2's progress and so on. That keeps a slightly different feel to each tier, you have to adjust how you craft to accomodate one type of buff being more effective this tier than the other instead of just sticking to the same button pattern from 10 on. I don't know whether it's doable, but in the knowledge book for the above where you end up with 12 buffs in 3 lines for each profession, the ideal would be to dedicate 1 page to each technique. Each line has the buffs with the same icon, set 1 in the left-hand 2 boxes and set 2 (if you have them) in the right-hand 2. Labels on the pages to indicate which profession uses the arts on this page would be ideal for helping new players find the right arts, but I'm not sure that can be done.

[Aurumn]

<p>I definitely agree that granting Durability buffs for the artisan levels would be more encouraging to new crafters. It removes the deterrent to playing with the buffs in the beginning when you really need to learn them. </p><p>I'd love to cut out the clutter in the knowledge books, too. Someone mentioned introducing stances as a way to allow a simplification of the arts to still be customized. This would be good, except for when you need to switch things up on the fly rather than just between recipes. Cutting things down to 12 arts that rotate could work without having to lock into a "stance" for the whole recipe. How about this?</p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small">Level 1-9 -> Conservative Dur and Prog skills (3 each). Slow and steady approach (minimal risk for modest reward).</span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small">Level 10-20 -> Aggressive Dur and Prog skills (3 each). Larger penalties with larger buffs... for speeding through when you can afford to .</span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small">Level 21-30 -> Auto-Upgrade Conservative skills... reuse same buttons (like APP 1 to APP 2 maybe?)</span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small">Level 31-40 -> Auto-Upgrade Aggressive skills... reuse same buttons</span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small">etc...</span></p><p> This would allow you to only have 12 buttons to juggle, while retaining flexibility between risk/reward scenarios. You could craft carefully on harder recipes and go whole hog when it's easier or you're in a rush. Mix 'n match as needed. You could, if necessary use the same buttons for all professions if you wanted to really generalize it, or at a maximum this would mean only 12 buttons per profession instead of the current 21 (3 per tier x's 7 tiers). Artisans would get a more complete introduction to crafting from the start, and there would still be an improvement to look forward to at each tier. </p>

[Aurumn]

<p>Sorry, double post.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><ol><li>Two obvious options present themselves for giving durability buffs to low levels.  Option A, switch around the tradeskill arts in the order they are given.  So, at level 1 you get the +durability arts, at level 10 you get the +progress, at level 20 more +durability ... the reverse of how it is now.  Which makes sense as far as crafting goes -- first you concentrate on slow and cautious crafting, then as you advance your skill you learn more ways to speed up your progress.  Option B, get all 6 tradeskill arts at level 1, then don't get the next 6 for 20 levels.  So essentially, at level 1 you would get the arts you currently get at level 1 +10, then at level 20 you would get the arts you currently get at 20+30, and so on.</li></ol> </blockquote>One other option: Mix up, a bit, the arts granted at T1 and T2.  In T1 give 2 + durability(two currently for T2) and 1 + progress  (one currently in T1) arts, in T2 give 2 + progress and 1 + durability, and for T3+ the same rotation as current. This would give a way for a tutuorial to explain the 2 types of + while also explaining the - on each art. I would suggest - T1: +durability/-success, +durability/-progress (to explain how to slow down a combine to improve the chance to finish at pristine), and +progress/-power T2: +progress/-success, +progress/-durabiity, +durability/-power

[Solento]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mix up, a bit, the arts granted at T1 and T2.  In T1 give 2 + durability(two currently for T2) and 1 + progress  (one currently in T1) arts, in T2 give 2 + progress and 1 + durability, and for T3+ the same rotation as current. I would suggest - T1: +durability/-success, +durability/-progress (to explain how to slow down a combine to improve the chance to finish at pristine), and +progress/-power T2: +progress/-success, +progress/-durabiity, +durability/-power </blockquote>Excellent solution, particularly if combined with the border/background color differentiation between progress and durability buffs suggested earlier.

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

<p>In all honesty, Domino, it is my feeling that the reason some classes seem easier/harder is the recipie count.  You get bonus xp each time you craft your first pristine of an item.  Therefore, it shows that the more recipies you have to choose from the faster you will gain experience.  I do not believe that modifying the values of the actions will really help much with this.  What we need is to fill up the recipie books of those TS that are lacking.  Personally, it would be nice to see new recipies added to every TS at all levels, but there are certain TS classes that definately need a boost in that department, as I know you are aware.  To me, this is the issue, not the actions.<span style="color: #ff0000"> <hr /></span></p>As for the actions in the knowledge book, I think the best thing to do would be to give everyone the basic skills at lvl 1 (and I love the idea of switching the basics to durability vs. progress), and then give the 2nd tier skills at lvl 10.  At lvl 20 the skills you already have should simply be upgraded to the next skill and the lower skill should be removed from the knowledge book.  I believe this is the idea you have, but I think some might be a bit confused as I saw some asking for "Adept I, III, Master I, II" equivialnts of the skill ... and if Im not mystaken, rather than giveing a NEW skill named "Nimble II", the upgrade is what you are suggesting.  If that is the case, I believe that is the perfect solution.  Therefore we will all have 6 sets of basic durability actions for the base professions we are do not choose to progress in, 1 set of advanced durability actions for our chosen profession that increases (I for 1-9, II for 20-29, III for 40-49 - and so on) every other tier, 2 set of basic progress actions for the other 2 professions in our TS class line, and 1 set of advanced progress actions for our chosen profession that increases (I for 10-19, II for 30-39, III for 50-59 - and so on) every other tier.  This would reduce our knowledge book to a total of 18 skills rather than the hodge-podge of repetitive icons it currently is.   <p>However, I also like Mendou's idea:</p><div align="justify"><i><span style="color: #cc33ff">Level 1-9 -> Conservative Dur and Prog skills (3 each). Slow and steady approach (minimal risk for modest reward).</span></i> <div align="justify"><i><span style="color: #cc33ff">Level 10-20 -> Aggressive Dur and Prog skills (3 each). Larger penalties with larger buffs... for speeding through when you can afford to .</span></i> <div align="justify"><i><span style="color: #cc33ff">Level 21-30 -> Auto-Upgrade Conservative skills... reuse same buttons (like APP 1 to APP 2 maybe?)</span></i> <div align="justify"><i><span style="color: #cc33ff">Level 31-40 -> Auto-Upgrade Aggressive skills... reuse same buttons</span></i> <div align="justify"><span style="color: #ffffcc">However, there are several ways that have been mentioned that could help to make the TS'ing experience more fullfilling and fun, but most would require a TS revamp, which you have said is not in the works at the moment. </span><hr /> </div>Power using % and making it to where our TS'ers dont have to feel obligated to crafting in the nude could be settled by the introduction of TS specific gear and a flat power useage per action.  I personally would perfer that.  Lower level actions would require less power (same as with our adventuring skills) and higher level TS gear would provide higher power bonus and rare power regen (think Flowing Thought items for TS'ing).  This would also open the opportunity to give TS equiptables with skill bonuses, generic recipies that could be quested after and used by anyone with a certain skill (obtained by equipting TS gear if you are not of that TS profession).  It would be nice to have a different outfit to change into while TS'ing that was useful and quite necessary at times.  </div><hr /> </div>Please remove the character traits that govern TS abilities from our adventure classes and give TS leveling their own set of character traits.  I really like this idea, and it is hard on crafters who do not adventure as they are being left out and not able to choose those enhancments.  Adventurer types hardly ever use them, so it only makes sense to make a separate character trait system for TS'ing.</div> </div>

[Oakum]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>My earlier feedback remains largely unchanged. I still say the best way to go about this requires giving crafting it's own Hp/pow/stat pools so you can escape percentage based crafting and expand in other directions. Whatever gets decided, it can't make doing lower level crafts too easy/fast for higher level crafters to preserve the competition and "costs" balance that currently exists.</blockquote><p>I agree mostly. It could also have its own damage styles mitigated by crafting armor and equipment. Then make it dangerous as in not countering so many reactions can kill the crafter. Make rare events less rare and more along the line of getting a rare from harvesting. Have a super rare something (along the lines of the rarity of FOI now) for that extra sense of excitment. Its not exciting to an FOI once every 50 hours of crafting when you can get one rare or more during an hour of harvesting. All what I suggested could probably be done with the percentage damage system we have now even. The seperate power pool and stat pools could be more of a headache then the dev's may want to take on though but would allow more flexibility in making things affect the crafting side only.  </p><p>It would be nice surprise every so often with the rare just like harvesting, and the super rare whatever would be like getting an equisite chest drop from a trash mob. Extremely rare, but exciting also. With the risk from crafting being able kill if not careful, there is no more reason for the people to say that crafting products should be worthless and the rare and super rare even rewards are not deserved like they used to excuse when destroying the crafting products. </p>

[Morrolan V]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>How about something like this Domino?</p><p>All crafting abilities start at apprentice 1 at level 1 (ie, as soon as you select the desire to learn)</p><p>Every 5 levels, you get the ability to improve a single ability by one level (app I to app IV to ad1 to ad3 to M1).  This puts more control in the hands of the crafter as to what gets improved and allows some level of customization.  Since you would only have the ability to upgrade 16 times by the time you are 80 (so you could go jack of all, or specialize into a couple lines). (ala the racial trait system and upgades similiar to the AA system, which is where I got the idea from)</p><p>Then, every 10 levels (or 20) you can throw in some 'fun' ability (non upgradable) that can be used, like an extra durability push, or an extra progress push, or something that boosts your success chance, power reduction, etc.  to allow us to customize it even further, would need alot of these to make it 'fun' though.</p><p>The benefit I see to something like this (though my 'balance' may be off some) is that you only have to create the ability once and then apply an formula to increase it, similiar to what you'd do for adventure abilities and books anyways.  Also, it opens up a level of customization based on the personality of the crafter and possibly the addition of group crafting down the road (since different people will specialize in different ways, it'd be possible to almost assign archtypes based on specializations), which could open up some new and potentially exciting avenues in crafting.</p></blockquote><p>I think this is an EXCELLENT idea.  Balanced, customized to player preference, in line with the general progression of skills and arts in the game. </p>

[sliderhouserules]

I think trying to use differences in the arts to give diversity to the classes is a bad idea. Consistency is balance. I think one thing that confuses newbs more than anything is the sheer volume of TS arts they are faced with. Make a single set of Artisan arts. Make a single set of Outfitter/Craftsman/Scholar arts. Drop the dead alt-skill arts altogether. I really like the idea of just flopping the tiers, so you get durability arts first. Rijacki's "mixing" idea is also good, but should be coupled with the border coloring as already mentioned. I like that a lot. I use the T1 +prog/-power on all my crafters, on nearly every round they craft. I don't like the idea of replacing older arts automatically, unless you thoroughly deal with the power discrepancy issues. How about making the -power arts be aware of your adventure tier, and make the power usage a flat number based on the drinks available for that tier? Higher TS arts use the same amount of power, but give more prog or dur, or something like that. If you did it that way, I wouldn't mind them getting auto upgraded. The -success ones still present a problem there, though, so I don't really like the idea of auto-upgrading. (What about along the lines of Jalathan's idea(s) putting in a special +success buff? At 40? Another at 80?) I wouldn't mind auto-upgrading if I don't have any reason to want to use the lower level arts. As it is, I have plenty of reasons to want to use them. (Just as an aside here... what's with the Jeweler arts? If I use the lowest +prog/-success to properly counter its event I get a critical success every time. And I mean *every* time. It works the same with my Tailor, but it does not work for my Weaponsmith.) I love the idea of extending Artisan to level 20, and the class to level 40 (the special buff at 40 mentioned earlier works well with this). Combine the buffs as mentioned in my second point above, and you lessen the negatives of doing this. You automatically give *every* class more recipes to level on. I just don't see the downside to this idea. Except for maybe market considerations, but I've played the markets in the different tiers, and T4 is the first tier where maintaining stock is really viable (YMMV), so I don't see it being that big a deal. I also just want to reiterate that I would love to see the third quality level return the product, and pristine level be where you get extra returns. It may seem outside the scope of this thread, but it really isn't. Integral to revamping the TS arts is taking a look at the crafting process and making countering really meaningful. Pristine should be something you actually have to work for, and therefore something worth attaining when you desire to. But when you don't desire to, you can craft to third level and get your desired product. This seems necessary and desirable in making the actual crafting process more engaging. Why put any work into changing/fixing the TS arts if their effects are variable (bad roll when you successfully counter) and in many cases unnecessary (pristine without pushing a single button)? I also think the chance to get the "rare" TS events should be increased a bit. Side point to this discussion, but relevant.

[sliderhouserules]

To specifically answer progression, I think the arts should get more efficient the higher they are, but also have a higher cost. As an example, using the -success/+whatever (just pulling numbers out of the air): <span style="font-family: courier new,courier">T1: -4%/+12 T2: -6%/+18 T3: -8%/+24 ...</span> These are scaling with the same efficiency (1:3). I'd rather see it go: <span style="font-family: courier new,courier">T1: -4%/+13 [or -4%/+12 (+ 1)] T2: -6%/+20</span><span style="font-family: courier new,courier"> [or -6%/+18 (+ 2)]</span> <span style="font-family: courier new,courier">T3: -8%/+27</span><span style="font-family: courier new,courier"> [or -8%/+24 (+ 3)]</span> <span style="font-family: courier new,courier">...</span> Which is an efficiency of 1:3 (+ tier) which doesn't scale too fast, but does scale upwards with the higher tiers. Maybe my math skills are deficient because that still looks like it might somehow be equivalent ratios (the + is going up by 7 each time), but I think you get my point even if my numbers aren't working. Higher arts should cost more, but be more efficient.

[CrypticFirefly]

<cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a better way would be to adjust the way power is used when you have a high adventure level. You shouldn't need to keep lower level arts because the upper levels drain your power to fast. </blockquote> I agree with this.  Crafting ability should be completely unaffected by adventure level, and vice versa.

[Barx]

Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar.  Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements.<hr />I would prefer to NOT have #3. The analogy between the arts and the combat abilities/spells isn't quite right. There are upgrades in spells yes, but you still retain the old spells. I'd be quite against ever _losing_ any tradeskill arts. Sometimes I want to use a really powerful one... but sometimes I only want to use a relatively weak one, and I think it'd be bad to lose that ability. I like the idea of just having the names be "I" type things (makes it easier to keep adding more levels of it, I imagine!) but I still would like to keep them all. On the UI level... perhaps something like this: In the knowledge book, on the tradeskill pane, add a set of tabs to the bottom. You could do this then a couple of ways: 1) A tab for each class, but that would mean 11 tabs! Thats a bit too many, IMHO. 2) My preferred way, but it'd require the window to think for itself... I believe this is possible, but you might have to ask the UI Gurus to be sure... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You only have a total of up to 5 tabs, depending on your current class and level. There would be 3 basic configs, with an optional additional tab that can be tacked on the end of each. CONFIG 1: For levels <10. *Tab1: Outfitter Arts *Tab2: Craftsmen Arts *Tab3: Scholar Arts [*Tab4: Your Secondary TS Arts] //Only if they have any CONFIG 2: For 10 to <20 Same as 1, only the first tab is your declared class (in other words, just reordering) CONFIG 3: For 20+ *Tab1: Your SubClass Arts *Tab2: Your Other non-SubClass Class Arts (ie, for a carpenter, they would be the remaining Craftsmen Arts) *Tab3 & 4: The other sets of arts (ala CFGs 1 and 2) [*Tab5: Your Secondary TS Arts] Ok, TAB1 would be the default tab. Here's how they would work... On each tab, there would be 2 lines of 3 icons, with the top being (for example) all + dur buffs, in order of: -power, -success, and then -pro. The second line would be similar, only the +pro buffs but in the same order (-power, -success, -dur). And here's how you could make it so that you could keep access to ALL your buffs, but not have to clutter things up with them. When you click on a buff, say you click on "Nimble". At the bottom, there would be a sort of hot-bar type setup, that would be blank until you click the buff. Once you click it though, it would begin filling in with the buffs, in increasing order. For example, if you were L30, you would get "Nimble I" "Nimble II" "Nimble III" and the rest empty. Yeah, it's complex but I think it would work well enough, and would reduce a LOT of clutter. And if you redo the arts so that they always go in increasing order (Nimble II does more than I, and III does more than II, etc.) then it would be perfect, in my not so humble (and oh so biased <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) opinon =)

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

<cite>CrypticFirefly wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a better way would be to adjust the way power is used when you have a high adventure level. You shouldn't need to keep lower level arts because the upper levels drain your power to fast. </blockquote> I agree with this.  Crafting ability should be completely unaffected by adventure level, and vice versa.</blockquote> Personally, I would rather see a system where crafting were affected by tradeskill level and the implementation of tradeskill gear (ie clothing, "tools" for weapon/charm slots, jewelry).

[Grimoire]

<p>I like the idea of changing the "order" of skills.</p><p>T1 is Durability T2 is Progress T3 is Durability ETC...</p><p>I agree with you that it better represents the method that people learn things... you don;t start being fast, you star being careful.</p><p>And since we are not talking about a full redesign, I agree in general with the rest.  Less icons in the knowledge book would be great, and a more logical progression of course makes sense <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ndaara]

<p>After trying to help numerous people figure out how to craft (and having to remember how to do it myself, after a 2 yr vacation), I like the idea of making things more accessible to newbies in general. I don't mind a steep learning curve, in fact I enjoy it for myself, but there are so many changes each tier, and inconsistencies between classes (not necessarily bad!).</p><p>** either swap the order of skills (T1 is dur, T2 is prog, etc) or give all 6 at the beginning</p><p>** give the arts different colored borders (excellent idea, it is dreadfully confusing at first)</p><p>** don't auto upgrade the arts. provisioner and tailor (at least, probably others too) get guaranteed crit success when all/most of their T3 progress buffs are used to counter. i LOVE this for the ones who have it, and continue to use those rather than the higher level buffs. and I still keep the T1 progress buff up always, to counter when i'm low on power</p><p>** T1 does go by way too fast, there is not enough time to decide which stuff you want to make. I'm not sure how best to counter that. extending the decision making period to level 20 and 40 might work better, and might help even out the leveling field a little better by giving folks more pristine items to make per level. then again... now that we can reset our tradeskill class, maybe it doesn't matter!</p><p>I'd like to add one more note of thanks to you, Domino, for being as great here in EQ2 crafting as Ngreth is in EQ1 crafting =) fantastic! </p>

[Liyle]

Given that there aren't a lot of resources to devote to big changes (as I understand it) maybe the best option for the arts buttons is to offer a crafting hotbar that is additional to the regular ones but pops up with the workstation interface when you double-click on a station. That way we can fill it with whichever 12 icons we want from the Knowledge book but won't have to sacrifice an adventuring hotbar. This would help those of us who close the TS hotbar... we wouldn't have to Open New Hotbar, etc to get to our crafting buttons. This in addition to having Durability and Progress available from level 1 and straightening out the progressions so they make sense. One other thing that might be good is to have the whole set upgrade each tier but have the steps be smaller increments, spread out evenly over all the tiers. That way you don't have to choose between starting on the left foot or the right, or loosing the low power options.

[dartie]

Morrolan V wrote: <blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>How about something like this Domino?</p><p>All crafting abilities start at apprentice 1 at level 1 (ie, as soon as you select the desire to learn)</p><p>Every 5 levels, you get the ability to improve a single ability by one level (app I to app IV to ad1 to ad3 to M1).  This puts more control in the hands of the crafter as to what gets improved and allows some level of customization.  Since you would only have the ability to upgrade 16 times by the time you are 80 (so you could go jack of all, or specialize into a couple lines). (ala the racial trait system and upgades similiar to the AA system, which is where I got the idea from)</p><p>Then, every 10 levels (or 20) you can throw in some 'fun' ability (non upgradable) that can be used, like an extra durability push, or an extra progress push, or something that boosts your success chance, power reduction, etc.  to allow us to customize it even further, would need alot of these to make it 'fun' though.</p><p>The benefit I see to something like this (though my 'balance' may be off some) is that you only have to create the ability once and then apply an formula to increase it, similiar to what you'd do for adventure abilities and books anyways.  Also, it opens up a level of customization based on the personality of the crafter and possibly the addition of group crafting down the road (since different people will specialize in different ways, it'd be possible to almost assign archtypes based on specializations), which could open up some new and potentially exciting avenues in crafting.</p></blockquote><p>I think this is an EXCELLENT idea.  Balanced, customized to player preference, in line with the general progression of skills and arts in the game. </p></blockquote><p>1: To Domino - As for your direct question about options A & B, I think A is better by a mile.  Giving folks durability buffs first is the way that strikes me as far more inviting to new crafters.  Of course, option B would also give them durability buffs early but it would make them wait so long for their first upgrade that most would prematurely conclude that nothing new ever happens for crafters as they level up.  </p><p>2: To Jalathan - Thanks for posting your fine idea.</p><p>3: To Morrolan - Thanks for perceiving the excellence of Jalathan's idea.  I was having a very hard time with this thread until I got to your post.  He puts it up on page 1 to deafening silence, and I feared that I would get to the end without encountering support for it.</p><p>4: To cgi-bin - Particularly in light of Domino's awareness that our recipe books are ridiculously cluttered, I agree that we only need 6 arts: 3 for durability and 3 for progress.  Give them names such as "Quick Reaction," "Salvage Scraps"  and "Flash of Insight"--names that will be meaningful whether one is cooking, smithing, or scribing.</p><p>I'm sure the system would take more balancing and attention than it's likely to receive in the forums, but I quite like the idea of getting 3 durability buffs (all Apprentice 1) when you start, 3 progress buffs (all apprentice 1) at L10, and the ability to upgrade one or more of your arts at regular intervals all the way up to 70.  (Jalathan has his model carefully worked out, but I think the important thing is to retain the general idea, not the specific pacing that he outlines.)  </p><p>Do you like to do timed writs starting at T3?  You'd better have sufficient progress counters to meet your deadline--and sufficient durability counters to finish your items.  Are you still trying to get the hang of crafting and struggling to hit that 4th durability bar?  Pump durability up to adept level if you like, but with progress stuck at the Ap1 level, each recipe is going to take a painfully long time.</p><p>Either way, it's your choice.  And when the game lets me make my own choice, it's doing the thing that keeps me playing. </p><p>Certainly Jalathan's idea insures that your arts only get BETTER as you progress.  Cgi-bin's reduces clutter in the knowledge book.  And Domino's Proposition A is a sort of welcoming gesture to new crafters.  </p>

[Sunlei]

<p> I would like to open my knowledge book to page "Sage" or page "Tailor" and have the icons default on their own page so I can craft easier when I use my arts right from the book.</p><p> I am not very keen about changing buffs around to different lvls, thus 'revamping' and having to relearn what each button is and redo everything. Just to make it easier for lvls 1-20 that takes 2 hours max to reach. </p><p> If you do change everything around, please, on the icons place text like +20 durability -6 progress..instead of pictures. I never could figure out what those graphics on the icons were anyway..except the eye, the dinner plate, the TV and the hand <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Maybe even universal icons as all the arts are really the same across all crafts. I mean + 10 progress lvl 20 art for my sage is +10 progress lvl 20 art for my armorer. be less confusing to have an icon with +10 progress same look for both. Thanks.  </p>

[Tremelle]

I don't like the idea of auto replacing skills, I find my self using my lvl 30 skills at lvl 40 TS for the reason they work better and I know I can pristen every time. This maybe beyond what you are aloud to do, but I would like to see a way to filter out any skill you won't use in your current craft. When i first start a new tradeskiller I find my self hitting the start button and then waiding through the book as fast as I can to find the skill that lit up. Then I move that skill to the back of the book so I can find it immediately the next time. Generally unless it is a primary crating toon, I don't like putting the tradeskills on my hot bar, I already have to many adv skills to worry about finding spots for.

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

For crafting efficiency, I always use the arts with the largest effect. The only exception is the cheapest power-costing art, which I use for countering when nearly out of power. That means that all other arts are irrelevant. If I can keep these, I can keep crafting the way I've always done. However, recently I noticed that different arts consistently gives different effects when countering, so my carpenter also has an art of each type in his crafting hotbar that causes critical success when used to counter. I'm not sure what it does for me, but it looks good in the log <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If every art has a different effect when used to counter, there is still need for more than one progress/durability counter of each type. It would, perhaps, allow you to craft smarter, not  harder <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If arts simply auto-updated, which would otherwise be helpfull, there would be no choices left to make while crafting, except progress vs. durability. Crafting in EQ2 is completely one-dimensional. The only thing that matters is to create the product as fast as possible. That makes it hard to make anything except high progress interesting. If using lower level arts could be beneficial in <b>other</b> ways than reaching pristine faster, not just when countering, then people could choose to go fast for the product or slow for the side-effects. A benefit could be causing rare events to happen more often, or something similar. I'm all for having tradeoffs, instead of one thing being absolutely better than another. People would be able to discuss endlessly what is the best way to craft <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /RS 'and using slower harvesting tools could give higher chance of rares <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />'

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

<cite>Liyle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Given that there aren't a lot of resources to devote to big changes (as I understand it) maybe the best option for the arts buttons is to offer a crafting hotbar that is additional to the regular ones but pops up with the workstation interface when you double-click on a station. That way we can fill it with whichever 12 icons we want from the Knowledge book but won't have to sacrifice an adventuring hotbar. This would help those of us who close the TS hotbar... we wouldn't have to Open New Hotbar, etc to get to our crafting buttons. This in addition to having Durability and Progress available from level 1 and straightening out the progressions so they make sense. One other thing that might be good is to have the whole set upgrade each tier but have the steps be smaller increments, spread out evenly over all the tiers. That way you don't have to choose between starting on the left foot or the right, or loosing the low power options. </blockquote> Now there's an idea.  How about being able to set multiple hotbar settings and switch between them.  Not the current /load_uisettings (which only allows you to choose the HUD of another character) or the save/load on options (which effects appearance and function for all characters), but a way to set up sets of 10 unique hotbars for different situations (adventuring vs. tradeskilling) and  load them at will.  This would be nice for those in the line of machinima who wish to link actions to their hotbar as well.

[sliderhouserules]

Anobabylon@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>Now there's an idea.  How about being able to set multiple hotbar settings and switch between them.  Not the current /load_uisettings (which only allows you to choose the HUD of another character) or the save/load on options (which effects appearance and function for all characters), but a way to set up sets of 10 unique hotbars for different situations (adventuring vs. tradeskilling) and  load them at will.  This would be nice for those in the line of machinima who wish to link actions to their hotbar as well.</blockquote>/savehotkeys /loadhotkeys Been in the game for a very long time. You people seriously have 10 hotbars filled with adventuring buttons? Shift + 0 = my crafting hotbar on all my chars. Don't need more than one crafting hotbar unless you like to hotkey recipes or something.

[Nembutal]

Mighty Melvor wrote: <blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar.  Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements.</blockquote><p>You mean the way the Mastery icons auto-upgrade.  If that is what you mean I'm all for it.</p><p>On the progress and durability icons, I would like to see the 'sameness' of the icons replaced.  If you suggest giving them both out at the same level, make them 'look' different.  All my tradeskillers have all six icons in the hot bar, so that I can pick-and-choose what I need depending on TS writs or MC combines.  What I suggest is create borders for the current icons so that they are easily identifiable.  For progress I would suggest blue, for durability green.  Why? because those are the same colors of the durability and progress bars in the progress window.  This would allow new crafters to follow and understand their mentors.  I think the sameness of these icons is what confuses newbie tradeskillers...</p><p>Please get rid of the 'other' reactives buttons.  Apothecary, etc...  There use went away with LU24.  I know they are still in use for some quests and such, but if you give out durability buffs at lvl 1, quests could be migrated to use the TS reactives rather than the pre LU24 reactives.  This will clear out the TS skill tab and lessen the confusion to newbies</p><p>As for the reactives for each specific class, I would like them all to give the same result.  This type of 'sameness' does not take away from the class specifics of each of tradeskillers.  Mostly, all trandskillers just want pristine.  These class-specific wrinkles need to be ironed out IMHO.</p><p>Oh, and lastly, in your previous thread I had suggested raising the specialization levels to 20 and 40 instead of the current 10 and 20.  Kunark will raise the cap to 80, and I'm afraid any new tradeskiller will be hard pressed to reach 80 with an outfitter or craftsman.  Another reason for this change is it will allow new tradeskillers to try different tradeskills out before taking the plunge into their first specialization.  As it is now, you level to 10 too quickly and really don't get a 'taste' for each TS.</p><p>Erm...guess that is enough for now <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I agree with all of it except the level specialization changes...  The reason is this... if the tutorial gave you an opprotunity to REALLY know well what you are making... you wouldn't need the bump... and if you added the bump from 10->20 and 20->40  you could get A LOT more first time pristine combines... WHICH IS WHY 1-10 GOES SO FAST so basically you trivialize the first 40 levels... hey... you buy EQ2 classic and you just trivialized 80% of tradeskilling for them... sweet. But like I said I agree with everything else... very intelligent post... but I think another avenue to get people to taste tradeskilling is better... Also... I think they should suggest tradeskilling choices by class and race ... like a ranger should be told "you will be consuming alot of arrows (woodworker), food (provisioner), drink (provisoner), poisons (alchemist)... your combat arts are made by jewelers... these would all be pretty good choices for your class.  Your race can select bonuses to 2 tradeskills <X> <Y> Rangers that pick tailor or sage... stuff of that nature... probably regret it.  People normally end up getting all the good adventuring racial stuff before they hit max level... so it's good to know if your race might make you excel in 1 skill over another as well. I am also looking for a good reason to be an armorer still... anyone who raids knows an armorer is useless since a fabled in T7 will beat a Master crafted T8... so your market is very limited... where as arrows, potions, drink they are always needed.... I think you need to rebalance profitability... as an armorer in T6 I use a phenominal about of resources and fuel and have no choice but to sell to the merchants at a huge loss... I'm not asking to make money via the merchants but I would like to be able to make SOMETHING useful without it being an adornment (very expensive materials) or a master crafted (also expensive)  plain crafted gear is 100% garbage no one has used since release last I checked.  There needs to be desirability balance...the easiest crafter to level from what I understand is a provisioner due to cheap supplies... and the one that reaps the most benefits... provisioner.... everyone needs to eat and drink... and it's an expendable commodity.  Seems wrong to me....

[Maroger]

Is there any chance we could get at least 4 more arts for the secondary tradeskills?

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>As you may or may not be aware, there will be some changes required to the tradeskill arts around the same time as Kunark comes out.  This post is about those changes.  It is focusing solely on the tradeskill arts, the ones you press to counter events or to improve your crafting, not the differences between what happens if you don't counter events (let's call that the penalties).  The penalties are a discussion for another day. Regular forum readers may recall <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366846" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this earlier discussion</a> thread.  There were lots of comments on that thread, many of them even on topic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I've just re-read the entire thing to refresh my memory.  Consider this part 2, after hearing all the feedback and doing much pondering and head-scratching. <b>What general issues are the changes aiming to fix?</b> <ol><li>An improved tutorial and/or more availability of in-game information on how to use your reaction arts is currently lacking</li><li>Once lower quality levels no longer yield a product, everyone at every level will need to be able to make pristines.  In particular, low level folks will need some kind of durability buffs.</li><li>Tradeskill arts currently do not always upgrade (ie, lower level ones can be better than higher level ones) and this is annoying.</li><li>Knowledge books are chock-a-block full of tradeskill arts, many of which are rarely used.  Cutting down on clutter and making it easier to find the arts you need is a good goal.</li></ol>In addition, any changes should minimize inconvenience to existing crafters who have developed their own methods and may well like it the way it is.  A total rewrite of the tradeskill system is not going to happen at this time.  What will realistically happen at this time is a rebalancing of the existing tradeskill arts to address the above requirements, without major alterations to the way it works. <b>How will we address these issues?</b> <ol><li>Improving/adding crafting instruction through a number of ways is something that we plan to do with the Kunark expansion.  Depending on time restrictions, this could even go in earlier ... or continue being improved later.  Some ideas include: more purple ? pop ups, better instruction dialog from NPCs, possibly an in-game reference book, an in-game NPC in the crafting areas who will answer crafting questions at any time and regardless of your level, better guides on EQ2players and in in-game help documentation.  Most likely not all of these will be necessary but some combination should solve this point.</li><li>Two obvious options present themselves for giving durability buffs to low levels.  Option A, switch around the tradeskill arts in the order they are given.  So, at level 1 you get the +durability arts, at level 10 you get the +progress, at level 20 more +durability ... the reverse of how it is now.  Which makes sense as far as crafting goes -- first you concentrate on slow and cautious crafting, then as you advance your skill you learn more ways to speed up your progress.  Option B, get all 6 tradeskill arts at level 1, then don't get the next 6 for 20 levels.  So essentially, at level 1 you would get the arts you currently get at level 1 +10, then at level 20 you would get the arts you currently get at 20+30, and so on.</li><li>Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar.  Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements.</li><li>The above point would address this issue also, though we may be able to do other UI type things that would also make the arts you need for making your current item be easier to go directly to. </li></ol> So, that's the general plan on how things will work.  But the devil is in the details, as they say.  There are 9 classes, with 9 different tradeskill arts at each level that essentially do the same thing.  For example looking at tradeskill arts that increase progress at the expense of reducing success chance, the first version of this that each class gets is: <ul><li>Carpenter: "Concentrate" +28 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Armorer: "Isothermic" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Provisioner: "Seasoning" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Woodworking: "Measure" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Sage:  "Notation" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Jeweler:  "Focus of Spirit" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Alchemist:  "Reaction" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Tailor:  "Nimble" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Weaponsmith: "Tempering" +9 progress, -6% success chance</li></ul>Most of these are essentially the same ratio of progress to success chance, with the exception of carpenters, who clearly lucked out, and weaponsmiths, who clearly got the short straw when this art was created.  A combination of slight discrepancies like carpenter and weaponsmith is what currently makes some classes "feel" more difficult or faster to progress than others, though in most cases the arts of most classes are pretty similar. <b>The question remaining is ... </b> Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others. Interested in hearing opinions on this from anyone who has any thoughts on the matter:  how to guarantee upgrades are really upgrades, and that no class is seriously worse off than the others, without making everyone identical.  Or is identical good?  Feel free to deposit your 2cp worth below.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <i><span style="font-size: xx-small">*Edit: typo*</span></i> </blockquote><p> 1. Please no more purple popups. The bankers drive me bonkers as it is. I end up clicking something that is completely annoying. We need a way to turn those off as it is. I like the idea about a book- how about a LORE / NO-TRADE book you get when you first zone into a crafting instance "You Receive - "Using your Tradeskill Arts - The Complete Guide To Crafting". Click the book like any other and READ it. You can then place the book in your house when you no longer need it as a handy dandy reference.</p><p>2. This makes a lot of sense, good idea and simple, just reverse the order you receive them.</p><p>3. Please dont do this. I will venture out to say many of the high level crafters dont even use the higher level tradeskill arts. I think the auto upgrade and deletion method is a horrible idea. I have yet to see a valid reason for even having the upgrades period. I have crafters ranging from adventure levels 1-70 with all but 2 toons at 70 in crafting (the remaining are T6 and almost to 70) and none of them NEEDS the upgrades. In fact, almost all my toons use the first set of tradeskill arts. Sure, you get 5-10 back in durability or speed but the extremely low power drain coupled with good totems and drinks make these the best selection. The upgrades provide little more benefit and a lot more power drain. <span style="color: #ff3300">Granted - this will make crafting pristines more difficult so what will the offset be??</span> - if the products get upgraded too, I am all for it, if not, please leave this as is, it is working just fine - people need to learn the intricacies of the game anyway.</p><p>4. How about a simple filter based on the station type?? A simple dropdown that only shows the tradeskill arts for say - forge, desk, tailor station, etc?? Something simple like that. They already highlight when you are using a particular station so they surely must be denoted somehow which can be filtered...</p>

[Besual]

Why are you against upgrades? Domino wrote:<i> <li>Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now <b>increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost</b>.  Or something similar.  Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements.</li></i> You don't like upgrades? You still use your T1 / T2 buffs only? Well, then look this way: You get only this buffs (if you get them all at L1 or a bit later dosn't matter). And now you get a bonus to this buffs each tier increasing th +part of the buffs. Do you like it this way? Well, it's basicly the same as but when you prefer the word "bonus" over "upgrades"...

[Garden]

<p>This is a slight variation on things that have already been said:</p><p>We could have six basic tradeskill arts, 3 each of progress and durability as currently. Each of these buffs has a number of ranks, lets say 8 given that's how many tiers there'll be.</p><p>Starting at level 1, when little newbie crafter goes to see the trainer in order to start his crafting career, he has to choose from <b>3</b> of these six buffs - thereby enabling an explanation/tutorial of the different buff types to help him make his choice.</p><p>After this initial start then every 4 levels or so Mr Newbie gets to choose a new buff - this can either be one of the ones he's missing from his initial selection, or an upgrade to one he currently has.</p><p>This would give both a feeling of progression through upgrades and a degree of customisability dependent on crafting style as people would need to decide between a broad base of moderate arts or a narrower focus on more powerful arts.</p>

[Schadwe]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but this is VERY important:  Since we'd no longer be able to make lower quality items for sale, what happens to the crafting stations we've bought that are NOT top quality stations??  They are now useless and a waste of much needed status points (these things are NOT cheap in status points)?

[CrypticFirefly]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip> (Just as an aside here... what's with the Jeweler arts? If I use the lowest +prog/-success to properly counter its event I get a critical success every time. And I mean *every* time. It works the same with my Tailor, but it does not work for my Weaponsmith.) <snip></blockquote>I always assumed that was an intentional aspect of the tradeskill system.  While I don't have an alt for every tradeskill, every one that I do have has a certain combination of counters that always gives critical success.

[Tokam]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>[stuff]</p><p> <b>What general issues are the changes aiming to fix?</b> </p><ol><li>An improved tutorial and/or more availability of in-game information on how to use your reaction arts is currently lacking</li><li>Once lower quality levels no longer yield a product, everyone at every level will need to be able to make pristines.  In particular, low level folks will need some kind of durability buffs.</li><li>Tradeskill arts currently do not always upgrade (ie, lower level ones can be better than higher level ones) and this is annoying.</li><li>Knowledge books are chock-a-block full of tradeskill arts, many of which are rarely used.  Cutting down on clutter and making it easier to find the arts you need is a good goal.</li></ol>[other stuff] <i><span style="font-size: xx-small">*Edit: typo*</span></i> </blockquote><p>1. 3 years I ago I would have agreed with you. As things stand currently there are som many UIs and web write ups that provide a complete and accurate tutorial that I would guess this aim should be only a low priority.</p><p>2. You have added those nice little quests in the TS instances, so its possible to rip through to lvl 10 in only a few combines. Doesnt appear broken so Id leave it tbh.</p><p>3. This is part of the charm of knowing your class and being able to get the best possible from your available buffs. I quite like the excentricites (sp? im in mmis at the mo...) that friz put into the whole ts system. Ive always thought of leveling as a route to new recipes rather than new ts buffs (apart from the grind up to 10 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p><p>4. You could do that, or you could just improve the functionality / serchability / ordering of the knowledge book?</p><p>Oh, we are fighting again. </p>

[StormCinder]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Please no more purple popups. The bankers drive me bonkers as it is. I end up clicking something that is completely annoying. We need a way to turn those off as it is. <b><span style="color: #ff0000">You can turn them off (see below for details).  </span></b>I like the idea about a book- how about a LORE / NO-TRADE book you get when you first zone into a crafting instance "You Receive - "Using your Tradeskill Arts - The Complete Guide To Crafting". Click the book like any other and READ it. You can then place the book in your house when you no longer need it as a handy dandy reference.  <span style="color: #ff0000"><b>I think this is the best idea for this issue.  Spend a couple of hours online and find the best tutorial/guide out there...make an in-game book out of it.  I'm sure the author would be more than happy to hand it over for the immortality of mention in-game.</b></span> <p>2. This makes a lot of sense, good idea and simple, just reverse the order you receive them.</p><p>3. Please dont do this. I will venture out to say many of the high level crafters dont even use the higher level tradeskill arts. I think the auto upgrade and deletion method is a horrible idea. I have yet to see a valid reason for even having the upgrades period. I have crafters ranging from adventure levels 1-70 with all but 2 toons at 70 in crafting (the remaining are T6 and almost to 70) and none of them NEEDS the upgrades. In fact, almost all my toons use the first set of tradeskill arts. Sure, you get 5-10 back in durability or speed but the extremely low power drain coupled with good totems and drinks make these the best selection. The upgrades provide little more benefit and a lot more power drain. <span style="color: #ff3300">Granted - this will make crafting pristines more difficult so what will the offset be??</span> - if the products get upgraded too, I am all for it, if not, please leave this as is, it is working just fine - people need to learn the intricacies of the game anyway.</p><p>4. How about a simple filter based on the station type?? A simple dropdown that only shows the tradeskill arts for say - forge, desk, tailor station, etc?? Something simple like that. They already highlight when you are using a particular station so they surely must be denoted somehow which can be filtered...</p></blockquote><p>As for the main topic, I guess I don't see what all the hubbub is about.  I use my K-book when I craft.  I have all my arts sorted on a page.  That took all of about 10 minutes.  I like having to make choices while crafting.  Adds something to it and makes it more than just button-mashing.  Watching the dur bar start to tick down....trying to decide whether to go dur or prog to get that last bump?  Oh no!  Slipped to tier3!  Can you save it?!  Can you get that dur back up??  I like the status quo.</p><p>And "balancing" is bunk.  Some skills should be more difficult than others.  That's where bragging rights are born.  </p><p>SC</p><p>EDIT-->  <span style="color: #ff0000">To get rid of the help popups...from LU20...</span></p><p>- Added the ability to speed up the timeout on the new instruction buttons   * instruction_close_time <seconds>   * Default is 10 minutes (600 seconds)   * This can be changed on the command line or eq2.ini - Added the ability to ignore the new instruction buttons   * instruction_ignore_all <0|1>   * Default is false   * This can be changed on the command line or eq2.ini </p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Thanks SC, I will add the command lines tonight when I get home and check that out. You have possibly solved one of my aggravations. Kudos~</p><p>As for the previous poster asking about why I am against upgrades - simply, I am not against upgrades, you misunderstood. What I am against is the AUTOUPGRADE theory where one upgrade replaces its predecessor. The problem with those is quite simply - the autoupgrade would force the maxed out toons to use only the highest level arts in the game. Those arts are major power drains and quite honestly reduce the flexibility given to the crafter to understand the game mechanics and how best to craft.</p><p>If you are a push button crafter always using the highest durability and progress arts you are missing some of the game. Its not all about the need to use the highest counter, its about knowing when to use them and when a much lower alternative will get the job done more efficiently and use almost no power, allowing you to craft faster with less recoup time.</p>

[Besual]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thanks SC, I will add the command lines tonight when I get home and check that out. You have possibly solved one of my aggravations. Kudos~</p><p>As for the previous poster asking about why I am against upgrades - simply, I am not against upgrades, you misunderstood. What I am against is the AUTOUPGRADE theory where one upgrade replaces its predecessor. The problem with those is quite simply - the autoupgrade would force the maxed out toons to use only the highest level arts in the game. Those arts are major power drains and quite honestly reduce the flexibility given to the crafter to understand the game mechanics and how best to craft.</p></blockquote> <b>PLEASE</b>, read what Domino wrote: An upgraded version will have a better bonus but the same penalty then the lower version. To make it simple (the numbers are just for illustration): T1 +10progress -10%power T2 +15progress -10%power T3 +20progress -10%power T4 +25progress -10%power T5 +30progress -10%power T6 +35progress -10%power T7 +40progress -10%power T7 +45progress -10%power Is the concept clear now?

[Oakleafe]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>As you may or may not be aware, there will be some changes required to the tradeskill arts around the same time as Kunark comes out.  This post is about those changes.  It is focusing solely on the tradeskill arts, the ones you press to counter events or to improve your crafting, not the differences between what happens if you don't counter events (let's call that the penalties).  The penalties are a discussion for another day. Regular forum readers may recall <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366846" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this earlier discussion</a> thread.  There were lots of comments on that thread, many of them even on topic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I've just re-read the entire thing to refresh my memory.  Consider this part 2, after hearing all the feedback and doing much pondering and head-scratching. <b>What general issues are the changes aiming to fix?</b> <ol><li>An improved tutorial and/or more availability of in-game information on how to use your reaction arts is currently lacking</li><li>Once lower quality levels no longer yield a product, everyone at every level will need to be able to make pristines.  In particular, low level folks will need some kind of durability buffs.</li><li>Tradeskill arts currently do not always upgrade (ie, lower level ones can be better than higher level ones) and this is annoying.</li><li>Knowledge books are chock-a-block full of tradeskill arts, many of which are rarely used.  Cutting down on clutter and making it easier to find the arts you need is a good goal.</li></ol>In addition, any changes should minimize inconvenience to existing crafters who have developed their own methods and may well like it the way it is.  A total rewrite of the tradeskill system is not going to happen at this time.  What will realistically happen at this time is a rebalancing of the existing tradeskill arts to address the above requirements, without major alterations to the way it works. <b>How will we address these issues?</b> <ol><li>Improving/adding crafting instruction through a number of ways is something that we plan to do with the Kunark expansion.  Depending on time restrictions, this could even go in earlier ... or continue being improved later.  Some ideas include: more purple ? pop ups, better instruction dialog from NPCs, possibly an in-game reference book, an in-game NPC in the crafting areas who will answer crafting questions at any time and regardless of your level, better guides on EQ2players and in in-game help documentation.  Most likely not all of these will be necessary but some combination should solve this point.</li><li>Two obvious options present themselves for giving durability buffs to low levels.  Option A, switch around the tradeskill arts in the order they are given.  So, at level 1 you get the +durability arts, at level 10 you get the +progress, at level 20 more +durability ... the reverse of how it is now.  Which makes sense as far as crafting goes -- first you concentrate on slow and cautious crafting, then as you advance your skill you learn more ways to speed up your progress.  Option B, get all 6 tradeskill arts at level 1, then don't get the next 6 for 20 levels.  So essentially, at level 1 you would get the arts you currently get at level 1 +10, then at level 20 you would get the arts you currently get at 20+30, and so on.</li><li>Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar.  Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements.</li><li>The above point would address this issue also, though we may be able to do other UI type things that would also make the arts you need for making your current item be easier to go directly to. </li></ol> So, that's the general plan on how things will work.  But the devil is in the details, as they say.  There are 9 classes, with 9 different tradeskill arts at each level that essentially do the same thing.  For example looking at tradeskill arts that increase progress at the expense of reducing success chance, the first version of this that each class gets is: <ul><li>Carpenter: "Concentrate" +28 progress, -6% success chance</li><li> Armorer: "Isothermic" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Provisioner: "Seasoning" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Woodworking: "Measure" +18 progress, -6% success chance</li><li>Sage:  "Notation" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Jeweler:  "Focus of Spirit" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Alchemist:  "Reaction" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li> Tailor:  "Nimble" +9 progress, -3% success chance</li><li>Weaponsmith: "Tempering" +9 progress, -6% success chance</li></ul> Most of these are essentially the same ratio of progress to success chance, with the exception of carpenters, who clearly lucked out, and weaponsmiths, who clearly got the short straw when this art was created.  A combination of slight discrepancies like carpenter and weaponsmith is what currently makes some classes "feel" more difficult or faster to progress than others, though in most cases the arts of most classes are pretty similar. <b>The question remaining is ... </b> Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others. Interested in hearing opinions on this from anyone who has any thoughts on the matter:  how to guarantee upgrades are really upgrades, and that no class is seriously worse off than the others, without making everyone identical.  Or is identical good?  Feel free to deposit your 2cp worth below.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <i><span style="font-size: xx-small">*Edit: typo*</span></i> </blockquote>1. Additional tutorials for new characters/players is a good thing.  I acknowledge that their are excellent TS guides on various websites, but really a new player should be able to learn in the game where possible. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 2. Option A. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Many players gave up crafting purely because they never made a pristine while in the 2-9 level.  Some only went back and got as far as level 9 because some quests require it.  Getting +durability first means that pristines in the level 2-9 range will be far more do-able (although still not guaranteed) and therefore should make new crafters more confident, and therefore encourage them to continue.  Option B would do the same, but may also confuse and, as previously posted, would take away the semi-reward of new arts every 10 levels (i.e. the sense of achievement reinforced by reward, sort of). 3. No. <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Please, no.  Leave the choice of which level arts to use to the player.  What was being asked for, I believe, is that if I press my level 30 art and get +10 durabilty and +60 progress then I should be getting from my level 50 art something like +15 durabilty and +65 progress, rather than +3 durability +60 progress (which is how it is now for many TS classes).  i.e. Upgrade as in get better, let higher tier arts be an improvement on lower tier arts.  Not upgrade as completely replace physical icons (perhaps do that in a later update <u>after</u> the change to the arts have been made and have been accepted and understood by players, do it in baby steps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). And also "Please no" to the suggestion of the app I thru IV, adept etc. upgrades.  I support giving all the classes the same level arts, so making them upgradable in the app/adept way would simply introduce differences again and would complicate the work of the devs when really we should, where possible (IMHO), simplify it. 4. Personally I have no problems with the knowledge book.  I simply sort by category, go to the ones for the TS class I am currently playing and drag the icons onto a hotbar.  Repeat every 10 levels (more of less).  It works for me.  I have a crafter in each TS class and don't have any problems using this method (not even my carpenter).  If you included an option to filter by category, that would be useful but really would just be saving the few seconds it takes to page through the knowledgebook.  De-cluttering is a good goal, but I'd make it a low priority personally. "The question remaining" - I'd like to see all TS classes have the same ratios - it's my sense of fair play! <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If that means giving all TS classes the same set of icons, then I'd have no problem with that (plus those with knowledgebook clutter issues would be happier).  I would guess that this would make the devs lives easier, and would allow them to concentrate on other issues affecting TS gameplay.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If you were to go (or continue with) the disproportionate ratios then I would suggest some logic behind it, for example, that scholars should have the worst rations (as they have the most recipes) and that outfitters should have the best ratios (as they suffer the most with finding enough raws). I don't like the idea of having disproportionate ratios for different classes at different levels in the way originally suggested as it doesn't seem to have any purpose.  It just sort of seems that you are looking to give someone a hard time and someone a better time at each level, but for the life of me I can see no reason why!  I really cannot see any sense in this at all.  If anything, I could see this putting people off their crafting. <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Something slightly off topic -  I was sick to death of alchemy today when I was having to continually counter over -1000 durability on blue level recipes. <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If something has the word "easy" associated with it I don't expect to be spending 10 minutes making one darn item! <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I made around 13-15 items, mostly potions and poisons, and had to counter over -1000 on 6 occasions and between -800 to -1000 on another 5 occasions. <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -1000 durability is not a rare occurrence for me, and I've had it in all TS classes.  Some days are worse than others but most are pretty darn bad. It's not that I am not making pristine level, just that there is so much negative durability flying around that it takes an age to get there (just to be clear - I am not a n00b, I don't craft naked and I don't suffer to bad from power loss - I've learnt all those lessons and know how to craft - I'm just being bullied by MrRNG). <img src="/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You could give us all the same ratios on the spell arts that the carpenters enjoy, as this already means carps are more or less guaranteed pristine level BUT it seems plainly ridiculous to me that you have to regularly counter more negative durability than the amount you start with (if you see what I mean).  For me, this negative durability/RNG-hate needs addressing IF you are trying to make crafting more accessible to new players - if nothing is done then you may be wasting your time with these other changes. Anyway, that's my 2cp and you're welcome to it! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wookin]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>... <p><b>The question remaining is ... </b> Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others. </p></blockquote><p>I think all the arts for each class should essentially be the same.  And I wouldn't even mind if it really was just 6 icons total across the board so my carpenter and my provisioner actually are using the same looking buttons.</p><p>I love the color-coding bands on the durability vs progression buffs idea.</p><p>I also liked the idea about perhaps including the buff buttons in the actual item creation screen, right under where the events to counter pop up.</p><p>Thank you for your hard work!! </p>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote><b>PLEASE</b>, read what Domino wrote: An upgraded version will have a better bonus but the same penalty then the lower version. To make it simple (the numbers are just for illustration): T1 +10progress -10%power T2 +15progress -10%power T3 +20progress -10%power T4 +25progress -10%power T5 +30progress -10%power T6 +35progress -10%power T7 +40progress -10%power T7 +45progress -10%power Is the concept clear now? </blockquote></blockquote><p> here is the quote from Domino - </p><p>"Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, <span style="color: #ff3300"><b>so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.</b></span>  For example, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar.  <span style="color: #ff0000"><b>Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time</b></span>, and of course, we would ensure that the replacements really are improvements."</p><p>Never, anywhere does she claim the power % will remain constant and it is rather ignorrant to think it would. If that is the case then fine...I get level 7 counters with level 1 power drains, sure ok... /shrug</p><p>She says the durability will increase while not changing the % of success NOT the % of power used. </p><p>So, in your words, go back PLEASE read what is being written and lets hope a lightbulb goes off and the concept becomes clear.</p>

[Koltr]

I have been thinking about the tradeskill arts. Maybe both progress and durability upgrades could be provided at each tier. But instead of getting a quality free version of the six tradeskill arts, you get an App I version of the art instead. Scholars will get recipes for improving the three tradeskill classes: Jewelers would get the Outfitter recipes. Alchemists would get the Provisioner recipes. Scribes would get the Scholar recipes. The recipe components could be similar to those already used by normal recipes, or they could be new items found when harvesting nodes. The upgrade path could be the same as for CA or spells. Epics could drop master tradeskill books as well. Adept III books could be made with a rare, etc. If you think the scholar is getting too much joy here, you could make one member of each class participate in the final product production, but we have in the past, steered away from component interdependency.

[Besual]

Valdaglerion wrote: <blockquote><p> here is the quote from Domino - </p><p>"Tradeskill arts can be changed to upgrade in the same way combat arts do, so that when you get a new one, it will automatically replace the old one.  <b>For example</b>, at level 1 you might get "Nimble". which increases progress by 9 but decreases success chance by 3%.  At level 20, instead of having another icon added to your knowledge book, you would get "Nimble II", which replaces the old "Nimble" but now increases progress by 15 instead of 9, for the same success chance cost.  Or something similar. Thus, you would only have at most 6 tradeskill arts per crafting type at any time, and of course, we would ensure <b>that the replacements really are improvements</b>."</p><p>Never, anywhere does she claim the power % will remain constant and it is rather ignorrant to think it would. If that is the case then fine...I get level 7 counters with level 1 power drains, sure ok... /shrug</p><p>She says the durability will increase while not changing the % of success NOT the % of power used. </p><p>So, in your words, go back PLEASE read what is being written and lets hope a lightbulb goes off and the concept becomes clear.</p></blockquote> As I said: <b>PLAESE</b> read waht Domino posted. And <b>PLEASE</b> don't turn of your brain while reading. Domino posted an example how the upgrade process works and picked the +progress -success buff to illustrate it. May be Dominio should post an example for every single tradeskill buff for all classes so that some people can understand it.

[Binkle]

I think a new tutorial is a great idea. I also like the idea of swapping the tradeskill arts around to allow beginning crafters more durability buffs. However,<i> I really disagree</i> with reducing the knowledge book "clutter." I am fairly new to tradeskills. Until last week my provisioner was level 47 from off and on leveling. I didn't know a lot about tradeskills and I had a very inefficient leveling system. After doing some reading on tradeskill arts, and doing a lot of practice I found a system that works for me. I am now using a combination of buffs from 3 or 4 different tiers and it is working out amazingly well. I finish rush order with 2 minutes + to spare and I never do less than pristine. My point is this: A lot of what made tradeskills fun for me was when the lightbulb clicked and it made sense to me. When that bulb blinked on I was able to see pros and cons for different buffs as they applied to my own play style. I was able to completely customize how I craft to make it my own unique experience. I would be sad if those choices were taken away from me.

[Klipshack]

I think you should reduce the number of tradeskill arts to 6 per 10 levels.  Do not make the skills bound to any crafting type.  So there would be not 'tailor' skills and 'armorer' skills, just crafting skills.  We already have a point system to show getting better at your particualar craft (i.e. 120/145 tailor), and I believe we don't need separate tradeskill arts that all basically do the same thing.

[Calthine]

I was just listening to that quote from the Mechanically Speaking panel last night (I'm know, I'm slacking on my writeups).  Valdaflerion's got the quote exactly right.

[Devilsbane]

These are what I would like the buff/counters to be. I would like to receive both progress and durability together every other tier. Please note the counter/buffs are extended to tier 10. The key is as follows. (Progress/Durability/Failure rate increase/Power cost)Level 1-19Progress Success:       10/0/0/-3% Progress Power:         10/0/3%/0 Progress Trade off:     10/-10/0/0 Durability Success:        0/10/0/-3% Durability Power:          0/10/3%/0 Durability Trade off:   -10/10/0/0Level 20-39Progress Success:        20/0/0/-6% Progress Power:          20/0/6%/0 Progress Trade off:      20/-15/0/0 Durability Success:         0/15/0/-6% Durability Power:           0/15/6%/0 Durability Trade off:   -20/15/0/0Level 40-59Progress Success:         30/0/0/-9% Progress Power:           30/0/9%/0 Progress Trade off:       30/-20/0/0 Durability Success:         0/20/0/-9% Durability Power:           0/20/9%/0 Durability Trade off:   -30/20/0/0Level 60-79Progress Success:         40/0/0/-12% Progress Power:           40/0/12%/0 Progress Trade off:       40/-25/0/0 Durability Success:         0/25/0/-12% Durability Power:           0/25/12%/0 Durability Trade off:   -40/25/0/0Level 80-99Progress Success:         50/0/0/-15% Progress Power:           50/0/15%/0 Progress Trade off:      50/-30/0/0 Durability Success:         0/30/0/-15% Durability Power:           0/30/15%/0 Durability Trade off:   -50/30/0/0

[steelblueangel]

<p>what benefits are crafters going to get from all of these changes to the system of how items are crafted? </p><p>Will it reduce crafting time or increase it to an even longer button pushing process?</p><p>Will it reduce the chance of failure or increase it?</p><p>Will changing the current system make the produced items more desireable by the consumers?</p><p>If the failure rate is increased will new crafters continue to develop their tradeskill?</p><p>If the failure rate is increased will established tradeskillers continue to craft?</p><p>Do tradeskills need a new method or is the existing one broken? </p><p>If the existing tradeskill method is not broken is there a need to change it so drastically?</p><p>Will the new method increase the rate of leveling or decrease it to an even slower speed?</p><p>Should dev time be spent developing a new crafting method or spent upgrading crafted items?</p>

[Deson]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>what benefits are crafters going to get from all of these changes to the system of how items are crafted? </p><p>Will it reduce crafting time or increase it to an even longer button pushing process?</p><p>Will it reduce the chance of failure or increase it?</p><p>Will changing the current system make the produced items more desireable by the consumers?</p><p>If the failure rate is increased will new crafters continue to develop their tradeskill?</p><p>If the failure rate is increased will established tradeskillers continue to craft?</p><p>Do tradeskills need a new method or is the existing one broken? </p><p>If the existing tradeskill method is not broken is there a need to change it so drastically?</p><p>Will the new method increase the rate of leveling or decrease it to an even slower speed?</p><p>Should dev time be spent developing a new crafting method or spent upgrading crafted items? </p></blockquote>1.Benefits will be for both new and old crafters. Newer ones will have a cleaner, more straight forward system to learn and older crafters will actually see signs of improvement in the efficiency of new arts. 2. At worst things should remain about the same. For lower tier recipes though, the more efficient/effective arts combined with natural skill-ups should result in appreciably lower craft times 3. If you succeed now, you will succeed when the new system hits; nothing that substantial is changing mechanics wise. 4.Arts changes don't affect itemization. 5.Depends on the crafter.Short answer is likely yes- especially with the streamlining making it all far less confusing.  Considering though that people currently skill it up at a loss for the sole purpose of "self sufficience", before that people loved subs, before that people loved interdependency and before that people loved the system when it was broken and when the forge was killing people, the question is more a matter of volume than anything else. 6.We've played through worse. By and large the change is what was requested and what is currently mechanically possible. 7.Two fold answer. 1. Tradeskills do need a new method though I would argue this is just a start. Without significant changes to how the system currently works, it's really, really difficult to improve the process, reward players in tradeskill gear or reward in other non-recipe, non-fluff ways.  2.Not so much broken as limited and a bit confusing if not overwhelming.  Your highest arts aren't necessarily your best, sometimes there are continuity breaks in what an art does and across all the classes, there can be some serious differences in the effects of equivalent arts. Changes are needed both to fix the inconsistencies and make a player feel that leveling is genuine progression beyond a number. 8.Yes, see 7. Although, what she is doing is only a drastic change on the surface. In reality, all that's really happening is shifting how arts are given and improving their quality. At worst things are the same but the desired effect if achieved will make things much, much better and cleaner for all crafters.Well, in practical terms. Those who really like things the way they are will likely not be pleased. Humans are humans and we like what we like no matter the circumstance. 9.If crafting gets faster, so does xp. The change itself however does not directly affect xp rates. 10. Both, and that's exactly what she's doing. Both will be a great boon to the crafting community in terms of better quality, more distinct products and better method of creation.

[Deggials]

As far as adjusting the counters , i feel all but carp need to be raised a bit , it is annoying punching all 3 dur buttons (crafting naked, no stat drink, totem)  and seeing the the success bar go down (without crit fail), u notice it a bit more on the outfitters, alchy as well.

[Mikkahl]

<p>My 2cp:</p><ul><li>Yes on Option A: Start T1 with durability, T2 with Progress, etc.</li><li>Color-code the borders to distinguish +durability from +progress icons - great idea!</li><li>Let's have only one set of icons for all tradeskills, that do the same things.  What's really the point in having them be different?  It just gives T1 n00bs a much harder time dealing with 9 sets, T2 still has to deal with 3 sets, and after that we only use one set anyway!  This would get rid of 80% of the knowledge book clutter and confusion.</li><li>But do NOT replace old skills with new ones, cause we still need all the options to deal with different situations.</li><li>Can we please remove the "high adventurer level penalty"?  I liked the idea of mentoring our adventurer level down to, say level 12 (so we can use T2 drink and power totems).</li><li>Please, please do NOT make crafting be "in-combat", as somebody suggested, so that power regen would not work!  This would make pristine nearly impossible in many cases.</li><li>Being cautious, I always start out hitting the durability buffs, watching the + green numbers on durability, knowing that I am building up the hidden "durability pool" above 100% in case of catastrophic failures later.  It would be very nice if that "durability pool" was not hidden, but actually visible - perhaps by letting the durability bar extend past 100%.</li><li>Also, I spam the -success buffs every time!  It seems like they are "free" to me, because this whole success thing is hidden, and doesn't seem to make any difference to me.  I guess it's supposed to affect the RNG somehow?  How would you know that anyway, since it is random?  Does anybody have any proof that -success really has an effect on the outcome?</li></ul>

[bigsigh]

<p>Whilst there are many great ideas here, the problem with most of them is that they are just too complex. The crux of the biscuit here is to simplify the whole process, not make it more complicated. To me, the simpler it is, the better it is. So.......</p><p>Make all tradeskills share the same six reactives. Chuck the rest.</p><p>Make the reactives available at level 1, and upgrade them at 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60.</p><p>Make the upgrades automatic, and make them 'real' upgrades and adjust the way power is used, thus eliminating the need to have several 'sets' of reactives for various power/low power situations.</p><p>Forget the 'Book of Knowledge', its Tradeskill tab and various esoteric sorting options. Delete the stupid thing, it just confuses people. Just add another area below where the current 'actions' appear, and populate it with placeholders for the the six Level one reactives. These would be clickable, and once a brief explanation of what these were was read, would be replaced with the six reactives themselevs. Even those who don't read popups or tips should be able to grasp what these reactives are for, once they see the 'action' in the area above, that just happens to have a matching icon below in the 'reaction' set of icons.</p><p>On a related note....</p><p>Please make the tradeskill fliters local to a character, not global across all characters. Ditto the Broker filters!</p><p>Please consider a rethink re the names of items. It makes NO sense to  have  a set of items that are called 'Pristine Fashioned xxx' and another two items in that set called "Pristine Imbued xxx'. In fact, the whole 'shaped', 'crude', 'fashioned' thing is nonsense. It makes any kind of sorting next to impossible.</p><p>Please make the broker sales log readable, by using fixed width and sortable columns that are sorted chronologically. GASP! </p>

[Maroger]

<cite>Deggials wrote:</cite><blockquote>As far as adjusting the counters , i feel all but carp need to be raised a bit , it is annoying punching all 3 dur buttons (crafting naked, no stat drink, totem)  and seeing the the success bar go down (without crit fail), u notice it a bit more on the outfitters, alchy as well.</blockquote><p>Been there - know exactly what you are talking about. Seem like the arts don't work at all. The worst is my armorer -- it seems to take him much longer to make a single recipe than any other TS class I have. He seems to get more failures and fewer successess. His arts really "suck" -- they give lower boots to progress and durability than any other TS class I have.</p><p>The best set of arts are those of my provisioner. - He just dashes through recipes in no time flat -- even a failure ( very seldom) hardly bothers him as his durability arts are so good and THEY WORK. </p>

[SugarGirl]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote> Most of these are essentially the same ratio of progress to success chance, with the exception of carpenters, who clearly lucked out, and weaponsmiths, who clearly got the short straw when this art was created.  A combination of slight discrepancies like carpenter and weaponsmith is what currently makes some classes "feel" more difficult or faster to progress than others, though in most cases the arts of most classes are pretty similar. <b>The question remaining is ... </b> Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others. </blockquote><p>Hi Domino,</p><p>I've been out of the community for awhile. It's nice to come in and see this kind of communication. Thanks. </p><p>As far as the question posed about some tradeskill classes being harder than others; I think we should most assuredly have this variation. In today's world, nearly everyone can cook some type of meal, but not everyone can fabricate a useful item from a chunck of metal. Because of this, a burger might cost $1 compared to a really nice chef's knife that could cost $100 or more.</p><p> However, if one class is going to have it rougher than the others, then extra effort should be reflected in the value of the item. Right now it does not work that way. If a provisioner (sorry to pick on the provies but they fit in with my burger analogy) If a provisioner brews up some level 70 drink, it will sell for 2+ gold. However, if a 70 weaponsmith crafts a dirk, they are usually lucky if they can sell it for the cost of the fuel.</p><p>Though the dirk was harder to make in terms of buffs and level 70 was harder to attain in terms of having fewer recipes than most crafting classes, the end product does not reflect the extra effort. It would be nice to see variances in terms of crafting difficulty and then to have those variances reflected in the quality of the product produced.</p><p> Also, along the lines of having buffs overwritten each tier. YES YES YES YES YES!!!!! </p>

[ShallaBal]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  </blockquote><p>??????????????????????</p><p> You mean fixing the weaponsmith class after 3 years would make us generic?</p><p>Please leave us the way we are. We don't need no luv <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Seriously, you cannot really have meant that. Fixing our class to make it as attractive as the others is something that should have happened 3 years ago.</p><p>Best Regards</p><p>Sha</p><p> P.S. No need to answer, the only epic items as far as we have learned for the new expansion are WEAPONS ... what have we ever done to SOE to be treated like dirt ...</p>

[Beajay]

<cite>bigsigh wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Whilst there are many great ideas here, the problem with most of them is that they are just too complex. The crux of the biscuit here is to simplify the whole process, not make it more complicated. To me, the simpler it is, the better it is. So.......</p><p>Make all tradeskills share the same six reactives. Chuck the rest.</p><p>Make the reactives available at level 1, and upgrade them at 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60.</p><p>Make the upgrades automatic, and make them 'real' upgrades and adjust the way power is used, thus eliminating the need to have several 'sets' of reactives for various power/low power situations.</p><p>Forget the 'Book of Knowledge', its Tradeskill tab and various esoteric sorting options. Delete the stupid thing, it just confuses people. Just add another area below where the current 'actions' appear, and populate it with placeholders for the the six Level one reactives. These would be clickable, and once a brief explanation of what these were was read, would be replaced with the six reactives themselevs. Even those who don't read popups or tips should be able to grasp what these reactives are for, once they see the 'action' in the area above, that just happens to have a matching icon below in the 'reaction' set of icons.</p><p>On a related note....</p><p>Please make the tradeskill fliters local to a character, not global across all characters. Ditto the Broker filters!</p><p>Please consider a rethink re the names of items. It makes NO sense to  have  a set of items that are called 'Pristine Fashioned xxx' and another two items in that set called "Pristine Imbued xxx'. In fact, the whole 'shaped', 'crude', 'fashioned' thing is nonsense. It makes any kind of sorting next to impossible.</p><p>Please make the broker sales log readable, by using fixed width and sortable columns that are sorted chronologically. GASP!</p></blockquote><p>I agree with Bigsigh. Crafting is far more complicated than it needs to be. KISS it (Keep It Simple Stupid) and we should all come out winners.</p><p>I play games to have fun. I don't want to have to earn a degree in crafting so that I can make a virtual object I will probably end up selling at a loss to a vendor.</p><p>I could care less about the time it takes to make something. I just want to make whatever it is I am trying to make. Other players prefer to craft as fast as possible even if it leads to a failed product. </p><p>To make both groups happy make a speed-plus/durability-minus reactive, a durability-plus/speed-minus reactive, and a speed-plus/durabilty-plus reactive.</p><p>I fail to see the sense in any reactive that lessens your chance of success. That makes almost as much sense as a spell that damages the caster rather than the mob. Why should I waste keystrokes to shoot myself in the foot, so to speak. The critical failures do enough of that for me.</p><p>This method puts the chance of success squarely in the hands of the crafter where it belongs. Unlike fine art, luck has never been a big component of the crafting professions. </p><p>While you are making changes to the reactives please take the time to make the icons more distinctive in hue (dominant wavelength), value (saturation), and subject matter. The current ones are a nightmare for those with poor sight and the color-blind (10% of all males are color blind btw).</p><p>My last request is to reduce the number of keysrokes needed to produce a product. At the present time crafting requires far too many keystrokes. The extra keystrokes are brutal on hands that have already seen hours of use before playing. I have been playing MMORPGs since EQ 1 and have never gotten blisters on my hands from playing until starting EQ 2. I have checked with others in our group, who started playing MMORPGs at the same time I did, and they agree that EQ 2 is very hard on their wrists and hands compared to similar games such as EQ 1, DAoC, WoW, and LotR.</p>

[Mikkahl]

<cite>Beajay wrote:</cite><blockquote>My last request is to reduce the number of keysrokes needed to produce a product.  . . . .   EQ 2 is very hard on their wrists and hands compared to similar games such as EQ 1, DAoC, WoW, and LotR.</blockquote><p>One thing I do is to put my crafting skills (I use 5-6 for each crafting type) in a hotbar, then I remap the ZXCVBN keys to the slots in that hotbar.  That way I don't have to lift my hand off the wristrest to the top row of keys to craft (or use the mouse).  I can leave my wrist on the gel pac, and easily reach the ZXCVBN keys.  And I can switch off using my left or right hand for crafting.  (I've even been known to craft on two computers at once this way - but it's really hard to react to every bad event that way! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p><p>Some of those keys are used for something else, you say?  I didn't care that much.  I remapped R (instead of B) to bring up the recipe book (makes more sense for a crafter anyway), since Backspace is already Reply to Tell (redundant with R).  I never crouch, and I use /sit or /stand on the rare occasions when I need them.  Plus the space bar jumps you out of crouch or sit as well.</p>

[Miele]

I skimmed through this thread fast, so I apologize in advance if what I'm about to say has already been addressed.First of all I'd like to have crafting skills labeled in a more intuitive way: if a skill is called Nimble, it makes only sense that its upgrades are called Nimble II, Nimble III and so on, also that aside from the technique used, there is a label of the class that uses them (tailor, etc.).A bit of clearing and organizing of the spellbook is needed for sure. I craft since early 2005, but explaining the art to a new player is no easy task.A visual representation (or a flat number) of what is our "success chance" would be welcomed too.

[FracasKrusher]

<p>Parallel the Combat system</p><p>Simplifying: by using a similar system to the combat system, players will grasp it easier.</p><p>"How to" tutorial:  instead of a book, how about a fraps-like video that shows an example of crafting.  Possibly something that can be pulled up on the ingame browser window? Words are good, Pictures are worth a 1000 words, and well videos must be at least equal to a paragraph or two <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Crafting Counters Upgrades: named similar to spells/combat arts( apprentice 1-4, adept 1-4, master 1-2)</p><p>Crafting Gear: just like combat gear, but wider variety than current selection.  Adornments that help also.</p><p>Crafting Product con:  recipes con like a mob would (gray, green, blue, etc) showing their difficulty.</p><p>Quantity affects Quality: similar to taking on a solo mob or group mob.  If you want to make the default amount, no problem.  If you want to make a greater quantity, it raises the difficulty/con.  If want to make less, it lowers the difficulty.</p><p>Quality attempted: If try for higher than normal quality, like something better than pristine (similar to going from a solo/group/raid difficulty)</p><p>Taking your time:  normal time gives normal results.  If want to take more time, this could make the product con easier.  If you want to attempt a large quantity (say if the product is an easy gray), this could adjust the con as more difficult</p><p>Using Extra Materials:  using more than the minimum number of raws could make the product easier to make (as you cull out the defects, and whittle down to the best).  Or if you absolutely have to try to make something with under the normal minimum of raws, it might work but will obviously be harder</p><p>Just a concept to kick around,</p><p>Tappit </p><p>Master Crafter (all classes, 70/350)</p><p>Reckless Abandon guild, Crushbone server</p>

[Vonotar]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deggials wrote:</cite><blockquote>As far as adjusting the counters , i feel all but carp need to be raised a bit , it is annoying punching all 3 dur buttons (crafting naked, no stat drink, totem)  and seeing the the success bar go down (without crit fail), u notice it a bit more on the outfitters, alchy as well.</blockquote><p>Been there - know exactly what you are talking about. Seem like the arts don't work at all. The worst is my armorer -- it seems to take him much longer to make a single recipe than any other TS class I have. He seems to get more failures and fewer successess. His arts really "suck" -- they give lower boots to progress and durability than any other TS class I have.</p><p>The best set of arts are those of my provisioner. - He just dashes through recipes in no time flat -- even a failure ( very seldom) hardly bothers him as his durability arts are so good and THEY WORK. </p></blockquote>Ditto to both of the above.  When i'm doing rush orders around level 20-35, if I slip down to three durability bars I spend a couple of secs trying to rescue the situation and then give up and click 'Stop'.  I know from experience that (especially on Armourer) that it's going to be near impossible to rescue those types of incidents (especially with any speed).  Annoyingly hitting the -progress +durability art often seems to have no affect on durability and actually increases progress *boggle*.

[FuriCuri]

Just wanting to mention about this problem: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=75&topic_id=362880#4176363" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=362880#4176363</a> And ofc craft grinding is very boring atm... First levels a hell fun but trying to level my woodworker from 20 to 30 is not fun at all <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> What we like in adventuring (well, imo): 1. Exploring! 2. Chance to get some neat item from mob. 3. Chance to get some neat item from mob or quest and this item will be usefull to you! Give us rare items, books (like you did in GU3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and TS gear as reward. 4. AA exp! Doing quests can pump you AA nicely so I think that should goes to TS-ers too. Maybe even to implement one more AA tree for TS-ers only <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But simple AA for doing quests for the first time would be awesome and will encourage ppl to doing more quests. Ofc this is going with the fact that we need more quests and not those boring orders... So Domino, as you are tallented you could probably see how those adventuring "pros" could be used in crafting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[StormCinder]

<cite>FuriCuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wanting to mention about this problem: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=75&topic_id=362880#4176363" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=362880#4176363</a>And ofc craft grinding is very boring atm... First levels a hell fun but trying to level my woodworker from 20 to 30 is not fun at all <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />What we like in adventuring (well, imo):1. Exploring!2. Chance to get some neat item from mob.3. Chance to get some neat item from mob or quest and this item will be usefull to you! Give us rare items, books (like you did in GU3<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> and TS gear as reward.4. AA exp! Doing quests can pump you AA nicely so I think that should goes to TS-ers too. Maybe even to implement one more AA tree for TS-ers only <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> But simple AA for doing quests for the first time would be awesome and will encourage ppl to doing more quests. Ofc this is going with the fact that we need more quests and not those boring orders...So Domino, as you are tallented you could probably see how those adventuring "pros" could be used in crafting <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Maybe I'm misunderstanding the purpose of this thread....are we trying to make tradeskilling=adventuring-standing-still?</p><p>While other posts discuss the need to "simplify" crafting in order to make it more "fun" I think peoples' definition of "fun" needs to be taken into account.  I play a games to excercise my mind.  If I just want to stare at a screen and be entertained, I'll purchase a television.  </p><p>I find the current system to be adequately challenging.  If you're thinking about which arts to use and when to use them and crafting efficiently, it can be quite a challenge.  If you're just "spamming buttons to keep durability up" then I can see why you're bored.  </p><p>That said, I fear with the influx of younger players from other games recently that the system will continue to be eroded.  My only hope is that D's understanding of crafting will keep it interesting.  However, given other recent changes to the game along the lines of simplification I'm not sure her voice will be heard in the conf. room.</p><p>SC</p>

[FuriCuri]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>FuriCuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wanting to mention about this problem: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=75&topic_id=362880#4176363" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=362880#4176363</a>And ofc craft grinding is very boring atm... First levels a hell fun but trying to level my woodworker from 20 to 30 is not fun at all <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" />What we like in adventuring (well, imo):1. Exploring!2. Chance to get some neat item from mob.3. Chance to get some neat item from mob or quest and this item will be usefull to you! Give us rare items, books (like you did in GU3<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /> and TS gear as reward.4. AA exp! Doing quests can pump you AA nicely so I think that should goes to TS-ers too. Maybe even to implement one more AA tree for TS-ers only <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /> But simple AA for doing quests for the first time would be awesome and will encourage ppl to doing more quests. Ofc this is going with the fact that we need more quests and not those boring orders...So Domino, as you are tallented you could probably see how those adventuring "pros" could be used in crafting <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Maybe I'm misunderstanding the purpose of this thread....are we trying to make tradeskilling=adventuring-standing-still?</p><p>While other posts discuss the need to "simplify" crafting in order to make it more "fun" I think peoples' definition of "fun" needs to be taken into account.  I play a games to excercise my mind.  If I just want to stare at a screen and be entertained, I'll purchase a television.  </p><p>I find the current system to be adequately challenging.  If you're thinking about which arts to use and when to use them and crafting efficiently, it can be quite a challenge.  If you're just "spamming buttons to keep durability up" then I can see why you're bored.  </p><p>That said, I fear with the influx of younger players from other games recently that the system will continue to be eroded.  My only hope is that D's understanding of crafting will keep it interesting.  However, given other recent changes to the game along the lines of simplification I'm not sure her voice will be heard in the conf. room.</p><p>SC</p></blockquote>I put my points only to show possible way to improve TS entertainment. We almost all love the fun from adventuring and I don't know anyone who like to look into monitor for couple of hours looking on the same dam picture and pushing the same dam buttons over and over again. That is why I put some examples about what we love in adventuring. I don't mind some action in TS-ing (not in terms of gerneral action like we have while adventuring). Dam, even tetris is far more funny that TS atm... Tho I want to thank Domino (and other crew) about we they have done to TS in recent time.

[Domino]

This is a thread specifically for discussing the tradeskill arts, how they should change numerically and whether they should differ from class to class.  <cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>The question remaining is ... </b> Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others. Interested in hearing opinions on this from anyone who has any thoughts on the matter:  how to guarantee upgrades are really upgrades, and that no class is seriously worse off than the others, without making everyone identical.  Or is identical good?  Feel free to deposit your 2cp worth below.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> <i></i> </blockquote>While other feedback on other tradeskill issues is quite welcome, this is not the most appropriate place for it as I'll be ignoring anything in here that's not to do with the original topic!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As an update to the original topic, I'm hoping to start laying out these changes in detail next week, so any last suggestions, opinions, or better yet inspired solutions, should ideally be posted this week.

[BigChiefJJ]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a thread specifically for discussing the tradeskill arts, how they should change numerically and whether they should differ from class to class.  <cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>The question remaining is ... </b>Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others.Interested in hearing opinions on this from anyone who has any thoughts on the matter:  how to guarantee upgrades are really upgrades, and that no class is seriously worse off than the others, without making everyone identical.  Or is identical good?  Feel free to deposit your 2cp worth below.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote>While other feedback on other tradeskill issues is quite welcome, this is not the most appropriate place for it as I'll be ignoring anything in here that's not to do with the original topic!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />As an update to the original topic, I'm hoping to start laying out these changes in detail next week, so any last suggestions, opinions, or better yet inspired solutions, should ideally be posted this week.</blockquote><p>I don't have my carpenter up to 40 yet so I'm not sure what the carpenter buffs are past that, but with my current durability buff (lvl 30) at +40 durability it really makes it easy and quick to craft.  I can use more + progress buffs on my carpenter as I only have to use the durability buffs half as often as on my other crafters.    </p><p>For my alchemist and woodworker, however I very rarely use my lvl 50 +durability buffs as I'll gladly use the lvl 30 +20 durability over the +15 one even if the % success is better for the lvl 50 one (to me the extra +5 durability is worth it).   And the power cost for the lvl 30 art is much more mana efficient than the lvl 50 one +5 durability for about 50% more power is not worth it to me.   </p><p>I have no problems with all crafters arts being the same, this would make it a bit easier when I switch from one crafter to the other.  However if they are going to be made different from each other I think the ‘better' ones should go to the crafting classes that have the lower number of recipes kind of equaling out the grind so to speak.  But if you are planning on adding more useful recipes (which we all know you are) to these classes then having the reaction arts equal is not a bad thing.  </p>

[Leucippus]

Penalizing adventurers should be removed; i.e. the more power (mana) you have, the more penalized you are under the current system.A toon with no power is the strongest crafter currently; i.e. the adventure level 3 and below toons.Either remove the power penality, or remove those reaction arts entirely.Note: the power penality was removed from higher level spells a long time ago. App I, App IV, Adept I, Adept III, Master I, Master II all use exactly the same power. This change was never made for the tradeskill arts.The power consumed for the tier 1 art should be the same as for the tier 7 and beyond arts, and all arts imbetween.It is quite _impossible_ to use the later power consuming reaction arts currently. Not even being grouped with a bard or illusionist increases power regen enough to use them.

[Calthine]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is quite _impossible_ to use the later power consuming reaction arts currently. Not even being grouped with a bard or illusionist increases power regen enough to use them.</blockquote>I'm sorry, you're completely wrong there.

[Leucippus]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is quite _impossible_ to use the later power consuming reaction arts currently. Not even being grouped with a bard or illusionist increases power regen enough to use them.</blockquote>I'm sorry, you're completely wrong there.</blockquote>Ok Calthine, I am sure you know at least as much about crafting as any other here, and are perhaps the most respected poster here.So, I am sure you are aware, the most efficient (well, when measured by the number of items crafted per hour) way to craft is to cast three reaction arts each round.The first exchanges progress and durability, or vice versa.The second consumes power in exchange for either progress or  durability. The third reduces success chance in exchange for either progress or durability.Reducing durability for progress, consuming power for progress, and reducting success chance for durability each round usually will get you pristine, pressing the same three keys over and over and over. It is slightly more tricky, but not much. Sometimes all three durability boosters must be used, and sometimes an event must be countered, and somtimes the order has to shift due to countering an event. (There undoubtably exists other ways to achieve pristine each round, almost always anyway.)Now, here is my question to you: our alledged "upgraded" reaction arts of the second type listed above, how exactly is one able to craft continuously and not run out of power when using the most "powerful" of the second type? How? What is the secret? A link is fine. There should exist no delay between successive items. One should not have to switch to the tier 1 consume power for progress buff. One should be casting all three reaction arts (the most powerful of the type) each and every round when an event is not being countered. The finest player made drink in the game, plus beholder totems, plus a level 70 troubador with mastered mana regen song, and 5 AA points in that AA line is still insufficient to have enough mana regen to overcome the current power cost of the highest level consume power in exchange for progress (or durability) reaciton art? Are you saying if one adds a level 70 illusionist / coercer with mastered power regen and the like that mana regen would be sufficient? I don't think so. (It might interest you that Leucippus is a 70 Wizard / 70 Jeweler; wizard's have 3 exchange health for power spells that could be cast between rounds also, but they would slow things down, and I suspect still would not be enough unless all three were used; the 3rd stuns Leucippus for several seconds, the first two cast somewhat fast.)Sorry Calthine, but it is _impossible_ to use those reaction arts every round and not run out of power. Those reaction arts could be removed from the game and have little effect on much of anything. Only the tier 1 and tier 2, the lowest level, exchange power for either progress or durability reaction arts continously are useable by high level adventurers. My adventure level 3 alchemist, however, CAN use the "best" ones when I am 2-boxing with my level 70 troubador, and have the player made drink running, and have the beetle (?) totem running. If that alchemist were to level, say from  the discovery experience from traveling to Riverv ale for a quest (discovery exp can not be disabled, just combat exp can be disabled), then I suspect even at level 4 she woul d run out of power.  Sorry about the rant, but the power consumption of these arts is completely unfair and I do not recall ever seeing this unfairness even acknowledged by a developer's post. (someone, anyone, please feel free to reply with a link to the contrary) Also, did not our most-recent, prolific-posting tradeskill developer just recently post that even she just stops casting these arts...Again, sorry about the rant, and the rambling nature of this post. This situation is upsetting. End of the rant.-Leucippus

[Catsy]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Now, here is my question to you: our alledged "upgraded" reaction arts of the second type listed above, how exactly is one able to craft continuously and not run out of power when using the most "powerful" of the second type?</blockquote>As a 70/70 Fury/Provisioner, I use all three reaction arts every single round and do not run out of power. This is how I do it:- <b>Craft naked</b>. Anything that increases my power pool is removed. Anything that has no effect on my power pool, whether directly or through my primary stat (WIS for me), doesn't matter. Don't bother with Flowing Thought items, most of them don't add enough to your regen to offset the power pool gain from their stats. This also means dispelling any self-buffs you have that increase your power pool or primary stat. Anyone who says this doesn't make a huge difference doesn't know what they're talking about; it's a simple matter of math.- <b>Use a Spirit Totem of the Beholder</b>, or the equivalent for your adventure level tier. This massively--and I mean massively--boosts my power regen. This is probably the most important point next to crafting naked. They usually cost about 2g each in T7, and last for half an hour, which is more than enough time to churn through a lot of crafting.- <b>Use the best drink possible</b> that doesn't increase my primary stat. This means that as a priest, I should /not/ be using the WIS drink that I use while adventuring. With all of my gear off, a small increase in WIS equals a large increase in power, and a correspondingly larger increase in the power used by reaction arts.- <b>Use my Manastone</b> in between combines. It usually takes me a minute, sometimes less, to complete a combine. While this isn't always enough time for the Manastone to recycle, using it at the very least every other combine helps keep my power up. If the RNG gets a bad streak and I have to fight really hard to save a combine (the provi durability power art consumes far more power than the progress art), I have other clicky items to recover power as well. The Overflowing Vessel of Fyr'Un recovers a ton of power once per hour, and at level 70 can be mostly soloed with an easy T6 raid at the end. There's a power book that you get as part of the Claymore series. There are others, too.- <b>Always use the power reaction art first</b> in the rotation when I have full power at the beginning of a combine, and I don't have to use another art as a counter. In fact, whenever possible use the power art first when you are at full power at any time. The reason for this is that unless the timing is perfect, I will usually not have a full interval between power regen ticks to wait until the next one. If the next regen tick occurs before I've used the power reaction art, it's wasted because I'm at full power. If I use the power art first, then that first use of the art is essentially "free" because the next power regen tick puts me back at full power.- <b>Develop a strategy for using reaction arts efficiently</b>. Sure, you can get by with just hitting progress buffs until durability gets low, then burning durability for a bit to save it, etc. But learning to tweak the balance on the fly takes practice, and will save power by shortening the session needed to turn out one combine.I realize that not all of these tips are available to all crafters. Not everyone will have a Manastone, and fewer still will have the Vessel or go through Claymore. But the most important parts--crafting naked, using the best non-statted drink, using power regen totems, and being smart about how you use your arts--can be done by anyone.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So, I am sure you are aware, the most efficient (well, when measured by the number of items crafted per hour) way to craft is to cast three reaction arts each round.</blockquote>Sorry you have a long post and I dont want to repeat it all in quotes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In my opinion this statement is not completely correct. The most efficient way to craft is to use everything you have to the best of your abilities. High level adventurers are at a disadvantage when it comes to power pools. This means you need to put more effort into managing your power and have to know when to use what. You do not have to use the highest arts or use them every round to be efficient. Sometimes holding back a little can help you in the long run. I mix and match things constantly while crafting and judging from what I have heard/seen, I am not exactly slow. You are right, it is unlikely most people would be able to use the top tier -power arts every round. I would need to run the numbers to figure out "best" regen and lowest possible power pool to actually figure out if it is actually possible to do with a lvl 70, but I doubt it is possible. This doesn't make the arts useless. Check the numbers on +(prog/Dur) Vs Power because this is what will tell the story about how usefull the art is. I cant seem to find the numbers and will check later in game but, If the return is greater or at least equal to the lower tiers then the higher arts are still better than the lower ones. It is all about the return/power ratio. If the higher art grants 25% more progress for 20% more power .. then it is still a better return.

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is quite _impossible_ to use the later power consuming reaction arts currently. Not even being grouped with a bard or illusionist increases power regen enough to use them.</blockquote>I'm sorry, you're completely wrong there.</blockquote>Ok Calthine, I am sure you know at least as much about crafting as any other here, and are perhaps the most respected poster here.So, I am sure you are aware, the most efficient (well, when measured by the number of items crafted per hour) way to craft is to cast three reaction arts each round.The first exchanges progress and durability, or vice versa.The second consumes power in exchange for either progress or  durability. The third reduces success chance in exchange for either progress or durability.Reducing durability for progress, consuming power for progress, and reducting success chance for durability each round usually will get you pristine, pressing the same three keys over and over and over. It is slightly more tricky, but not much. Sometimes all three durability boosters must be used, and sometimes an event must be countered, and somtimes the order has to shift due to countering an event. (There undoubtably exists other ways to achieve pristine each round, almost always anyway.)Now, here is my question to you: our alledged "upgraded" reaction arts of the second type listed above, how exactly is one able to craft continuously and not run out of power when using the most "powerful" of the second type? How? What is the secret? A link is fine. There should exist no delay between successive items. One should not have to switch to the tier 1 consume power for progress buff. One should be casting all three reaction arts (the most powerful of the type) each and every round when an event is not being countered. The finest player made drink in the game, plus beholder totems, plus a level 70 troubador with mastered mana regen song, and 5 AA points in that AA line is still insufficient to have enough mana regen to overcome the current power cost of the highest level consume power in exchange for progress (or durability) reaciton art? Are you saying if one adds a level 70 illusionist / coercer with mastered power regen and the like that mana regen would be sufficient? I don't think so. (It might interest you that Leucippus is a 70 Wizard / 70 Jeweler; wizard's have 3 exchange health for power spells that could be cast between rounds also, but they would slow things down, and I suspect still would not be enough unless all three were used; the 3rd stuns Leucippus for several seconds, the first two cast somewhat fast.)Sorry Calthine, but it is _impossible_ to use those reaction arts every round and not run out of power. Those reaction arts could be removed from the game and have little effect on much of anything. Only the tier 1 and tier 2, the lowest level, exchange power for either progress or durability reaction arts continously are useable by high level adventurers. My adventure level 3 alchemist, however, CAN use the "best" ones when I am 2-boxing with my level 70 troubador, and have the player made drink running, and have the beetle (?) totem running. If that alchemist were to level, say from  the discovery experience from traveling to Riverv ale for a quest (discovery exp can not be disabled, just combat exp can be disabled), then I suspect even at level 4 she woul d run out of power.  Sorry about the rant, but the power consumption of these arts is completely unfair and I do not recall ever seeing this unfairness even acknowledged by a developer's post. (someone, anyone, please feel free to reply with a link to the contrary) Also, did not our most-recent, prolific-posting tradeskill developer just recently post that even she just stops casting these arts...Again, sorry about the rant, and the rambling nature of this post. This situation is upsetting. End of the rant.-Leucippus</blockquote>To quote cathline,  you are wrong.I am lvling a prov up as I sit here and type this, and with a power regen totem on I can punch 3 just like you say each round. I am not naked and am in mostly fabled gear.To agree with you on one part.. I think if you are naked you have a better chance to tradeskill and I think that its unfair. But to claim you cant do it at all is bogus.<span class="genmed"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;">Sotanyavejin pretty much summed up a really good list of suggestions that I agree with all except for the naked part. I refuse to craft naked and I do really well <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b></span>

[Jardon]

<p>I have 3 level 70 crafters (tailor, woodworker, alchmist). When I craft, I usually hit what you call art type 1 and 3, I use art 2 (power consuming) when I have to counter an event, when I switch between the two duribility and two progress buffs (I don't usually combine the two types on one tick), or when I want that bit of extra boost.</p><p>I leveled the tailor and alchemist up on rush order writs, and on all three crafters since they made level 10 (recieved durability buffs), I have NEVER not gotten pristine if I wanted pristine, and I have never failed a rush order writ. I rarely run out of power, and then only if the random number generator gives me 4 or 5 power events to counter.</p><p>The woodworker and tailor were max level when they were leveled up, the alchemist was under level 20. I never craft naked, and I never run anything but drink and I always use the arts from the top two tiers (I am too lazy to go back and figure out if the lower level arts are better bang for the buck). The alchemist was easier to level, but he is now 70 and still has no problem completing any rush order or pristine combine.</p><p>I am not sure why everyone seems to complain about having power problems or getting pristine. I just don't see the problem.</p>

[Boyar]

<p>So far, from my experience, I have some issues with the balance of the different tradeskills as they stand. </p><p>My 65 carp is lovely to play, always has been, with excellent arts right from the start with little to no risk. I can make rush orders easily, even if I have to run to the broker for raws in the middle of the writ. Prov(70) and Woodworker(69) are only a little bit harder than Carpentry. Tailoring(66) however has proven to be significantly harder, with it being difficult to offset the standard per tick durability loss without either using high risk arts or a lot of power. A couple of crit fails on a single item can put me close to failing a rush writ, even if I succeed at making pristine. My new armorer(28 ) is even harder to succeed with, sometimes failing the timer with seemingly little cause, though I've no idea what the arts are like later on.</p><p>It is my opinion, that all crafters should start with a level playing field, with slow but low-risk/reliable arts that are fairly uniform. Later, as they gain levels, I think it would help differentiate crafters, to give newer more drastic arts that vary between trades. Some may get some really great powered buffs, but with a high cost. Others may get high tradeoff arts. Yet others getting higher risk but great reward arts. Each of these would require different strategies to take advantage of but would allow for tweaking for fairness without making them all the same. Also everyone would still have the option of going back to their starting reactions for the slow but mostly reliable method, at least for anything but rush orders.</p><p>Ideally, I'd see everyone get "Artisan's Reactions" which would have the same stats across the board and either never change, or automatically improve by level somewhat. Then, when choosing a trade, one would get the class specialized reactions, with the more extreme buff disparity happening here. For example, maybe scholars expend more power, outfitters have extreme tradeoffs available, and artisans are able to take greater risk for improvement, perhaps with subclasses specializing in durability, or progress, or a balance mix.</p><p>I've no idea of the feasibility of such a scheme, but however it plays out, it would be great to have the trades be balanced, at least at the outset.</p><p>Thanks for all your hard work and patient listening,</p><p>                        - Thud</p>

[Generic123]

<p>It's probably not on the table and possibly a little off topic but I'd like to see a system that allows us more variety in our finished products.</p><p>My idea is to cut the basic buffs/arts to 6 that scale with level and have special buffs that create a chance of improvements to the final product when you successfully counter with them.  The improvement could be in the form of an added bonus to the base item much like adornments produce.  The buffs should have a high cost associated with their use so the improvements are difficult to obtain.  It would also be nice to have multiple ranks, and perhaps even depend on having discovered/scribed a specific buff.  (Discovered through crafting, not adventuring)</p><p>Some trades that wouldn't be able to make use of such a system due to the nature of what they produce, and I've no idea what could be done in those cases.  </p>

[setesh]

<p>I'm strongly opposed to varying tradeskill tier difficulty through the quality of skill upgrades.  It was a bad idea when it was called a "hell level" in EQ1 and it's still a bad idea.</p>

[Rashaak]

<p>The below comment by Sotanyavejin is what we need to get away from with the arts currently being used. There are quite a few things a player has to do in order to gain the best possible use of their power when crafting. Which is more or less an inconveniance more so than anything else.</p><p>The arts over abilities need to be adjust to where you don't have '6' arts every 20 levels but just 3 that auto update. Its already confusing enough for young crafters and experienced crafters that they have to use 6 arts in a combo set up to get the best benefits and increase chances of pristine quality. You have one art that utilizes power while the others do not, why is this? Is there a 'reasonable' explanation for it, other than not to make it to easy to level?</p><p>Why is it we have to remove all our adventure gear just to beat the system in regards to power loss at higher level. When you hit Teir 5 there is a huge jump in power consumption while in adventure gear versus teir 4. But like I said, I see no reason or understanding that only 1 art requires the use of power.</p><p>It seems to me it would be a lot more simple, and basic to understand (even for a new a crafter) to have 3 arts only. 1 that increases Progress, 1 that increases Durability, and 1 that increases Progress & Durability at the cost of % success. With the 3rd one since it would increase both progress & durability it would decrease success chance % by a greater margin. </p><p>Also use of arts should only ever have to be used when a reaction does occur, not to speed up progression or maintain durability, because then it just because a boring button mash fest. If i wanted to sit around button mashing I'd go out an adventure. So possibly an increase in the ratio of reactions that occur while crafting. And as one person said in an earlier post, color appropriate icons for the arts would be good. Green for Progress, Blue for Durability, Red for % success loss. </p><p>Just an idea too. How about a mid and high level quest that gives us a 4th reaction art/buff that increases % success. Some type of Crafting quest that would allow even a level 10 adventurer to go and obtain the art. Of course this % success increase would be a 'special ability/art' therefor could only be used maybe once every 15 min.</p><p>Also the ratio at which Rare Events occur and what type of benefit you get should be adjusted/added too. Why have it just give a rare, + to your skill, or insta-pristine? Why not have it give a + to progress or a + to durability, or even a + to success as well every once in a while. Just a different variety of 'Rare Events' that would actually benefit the crafter more so than getting a rare or insta-pristine.</p><p>Those are just some of my thoughts...</p><p><cite><a href="mailto:Sotanyavejin@Guk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Sotanyavejin@Guk</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Now, here is my question to you: our alledged "upgraded" reaction arts of the second type listed above, how exactly is one able to craft continuously and not run out of power when using the most "powerful" of the second type?</blockquote>As a 70/70 Fury/Provisioner, I use all three reaction arts every single round and do not run out of power. This is how I do it:- <b>Craft naked</b>. Anything that increases my power pool is removed. Anything that has no effect on my power pool, whether directly or through my primary stat (WIS for me), doesn't matter. Don't bother with Flowing Thought items, most of them don't add enough to your regen to offset the power pool gain from their stats. This also means dispelling any self-buffs you have that increase your power pool or primary stat. Anyone who says this doesn't make a huge difference doesn't know what they're talking about; it's a simple matter of math.- <b>Use a Spirit Totem of the Beholder</b>, or the equivalent for your adventure level tier. This massively--and I mean massively--boosts my power regen. This is probably the most important point next to crafting naked. They usually cost about 2g each in T7, and last for half an hour, which is more than enough time to churn through a lot of crafting.- <b>Use the best drink possible</b> that doesn't increase my primary stat. This means that as a priest, I should /not/ be using the WIS drink that I use while adventuring. With all of my gear off, a small increase in WIS equals a large increase in power, and a correspondingly larger increase in the power used by reaction arts.- <b>Use my Manastone</b> in between combines. It usually takes me a minute, sometimes less, to complete a combine. While this isn't always enough time for the Manastone to recycle, using it at the very least every other combine helps keep my power up. If the RNG gets a bad streak and I have to fight really hard to save a combine (the provi durability power art consumes far more power than the progress art), I have other clicky items to recover power as well. The Overflowing Vessel of Fyr'Un recovers a ton of power once per hour, and at level 70 can be mostly soloed with an easy T6 raid at the end. There's a power book that you get as part of the Claymore series. There are others, too.- <b>Always use the power reaction art first</b> in the rotation when I have full power at the beginning of a combine, and I don't have to use another art as a counter. In fact, whenever possible use the power art first when you are at full power at any time. The reason for this is that unless the timing is perfect, I will usually not have a full interval between power regen ticks to wait until the next one. If the next regen tick occurs before I've used the power reaction art, it's wasted because I'm at full power. If I use the power art first, then that first use of the art is essentially "free" because the next power regen tick puts me back at full power.- <b>Develop a strategy for using reaction arts efficiently</b>. Sure, you can get by with just hitting progress buffs until durability gets low, then burning durability for a bit to save it, etc. But learning to tweak the balance on the fly takes practice, and will save power by shortening the session needed to turn out one combine.I realize that not all of these tips are available to all crafters. Not everyone will have a Manastone, and fewer still will have the Vessel or go through Claymore. But the most important parts--crafting naked, using the best non-statted drink, using power regen totems, and being smart about how you use your arts--can be done by anyone.</blockquote>

[Calthine]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The below comment by Sotanyavejin is what we need to get away from with the arts currently being used. There are quite a few things a player has to do in order to gain the best possible use of their power when crafting. Which is more or less an inconveniance more so than anything else.</p><p>The arts over abilities need to be adjust to where you don't have '6' arts every 20 levels but just 3 that auto update. Its already confusing enough for young crafters and experienced crafters that they have to use 6 arts in a combo set up to get the best benefits and increase chances of pristine quality. You have one art that utilizes power while the others do not, why is this? Is there a 'reasonable' explanation for it, other than not to make it to easy to level?</p></blockquote>For about the 99th time, lol, Domino said at the <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mechanically Speaking Panel</a> at Fan Faire that the Arts are getting a revamp with Kunark.  From the linked write up:<i>With Kunark crafters can expect a revamp of the tradeskill arts. Removing non-pristine products will cause problems in low levels; and tradeskill arts do not always upgrade. This change will address both issues. One part of the change includes the arts upgrading the same way combat arts do. For example, at level one you might get a Tailoring art called Nimble I; at level 20 instead of getting a new art you'll get Nimble II which would replace Nimble I as an upgrade. You will only have six Arts at any time. Exact details have not been finalized; please watch the tradeskill forums for more information.</i>

[greenmantle]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a thread specifically for discussing the tradeskill arts, how they should change numerically and whether they should differ from class to class.  <cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>The question remaining is ... </b>Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  This may result in a more generic feel between crafters than we have now.  Alternately ... should some classes continue to get disproportionately "better" ratios here and there, perhaps at different levels from each other -- for example, carpenters in this example start out ahead, but perhaps their next 4 upgrades of "Concentrate" will be very minimal improvements, while maybe Jewellers will see big jump in improvement at level 30, and Sages not be so hot on increasing progress till 50 yet might be able to buff durability better than the other classes from 20, or similar.  Thus, by level 80 or so every class will probably be pretty similar, but at low and mid levels it will still be the case that some classes are better at adding progress or durability than others.Interested in hearing opinions on this from anyone who has any thoughts on the matter:  how to guarantee upgrades are really upgrades, and that no class is seriously worse off than the others, without making everyone identical.  Or is identical good?  Feel free to deposit your 2cp worth below.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote>While other feedback on other tradeskill issues is quite welcome, this is not the most appropriate place for it as I'll be ignoring anything in here that's not to do with the original topic!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />As an update to the original topic, I'm hoping to start laying out these changes in detail next week, so any last suggestions, opinions, or better yet inspired solutions, should ideally be posted this week.</blockquote><p>Ingredients differ, products differ it seems most didnt know there was a difference in the arts i dont see how it would bother any one to "fix" it. To have varying  progress and buffs would add needless complexity, the more complexity the better the chance some thing will end up broken on implimentation.  Also identical is good, every one will hate carpenters till its fixed  because we have it easy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>With upgrading the ratio between inproved art and increased power cost needs to be twinked. When people use lower skills  and no equipment to acomplish a task its a little crazy. Can you imagine a tank stripping down and asking you to remove his sta buffs before tanking a named so he regened health faster?</p><p>With regen some classes will always have advatages any one with a regen mana skill will probably always be a better crafter  trying to make is so every one is equal when there are so many rates of regen ie food/totems/spells would drive any one crazy. Might be time to accept that an ogre guardian doesnt make quite the jeweler  that a gnome dirge does. Its not fair to some perhaps but classes are not equal in any other aspect of the game why do they have to be all equal in crafting?</p><p>Deffinite yes though on auto upgrading arts, it is some thing a lot of people seem to miss and dont realise they have improved arts sitting in their books.  </p><p>On the tutorial thoughts please some thing to mention there are rare and "standard" recipes ive seen too many times on the board  people tearing their hair out because they are tring to level up from only advanced recipes. </p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The below comment by Sotanyavejin is what we need to get away from with the arts currently being used. There are quite a few things a player has to do in order to gain the best possible use of their power when crafting. Which is more or less an inconveniance more so than anything else.</p><p>The arts over abilities need to be adjust to where you don't have '6' arts every 20 levels but just 3 that auto update. Its already confusing enough for young crafters and experienced crafters that they have to use 6 arts in a combo set up to get the best benefits and increase chances of pristine quality. You have one art that utilizes power while the others do not, why is this? Is there a 'reasonable' explanation for it, other than not to make it to easy to level?</p></blockquote>For about the 99th time, lol, Domino said at the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" target="_blank">Mechanically Speaking Panel</a> at Fan Faire that the Arts are getting a revamp with Kunark.  From the linked write up:<i>With Kunark crafters can expect a revamp of the tradeskill arts. Removing non-pristine products will cause problems in low levels; and tradeskill arts do not always upgrade. This change will address both issues. One part of the change includes the arts upgrading the same way combat arts do. For example, at level one you might get a Tailoring art called Nimble I; at level 20 instead of getting a new art you'll get Nimble II which would replace Nimble I as an upgrade. You will only have six Arts at any time. Exact details have not been finalized; please watch the tradeskill forums for more information.</i></blockquote><p>I'm well aware of the 'revamp' but...</p><p>She is saying there will be 6 arts every 20 levels possibly, I'm saying that is too many and too confusing for a new player, not to mention if you want to have guides in game and such.</p><p>I am saying 6 arts every 20 levels is too much however 3 would work better...crafting doesn't need 6 arts to button mash. </p><p>I am saying using 6 arts and creating a combo between 2 tiers of arts to use Progress + Durability to its best potential to create pristine is too much</p><p>I'm saying having to go in to craft and taking off all your power items is too much, just to beat the numbers on the power pool at high level because ONE art consumes power and in the case of crafting...its... MO Power = Mo Problems</p><p>In all...my suggestion on how the arts should change numerically...6 arts is not needed and creates too much confusion, simplify the arts to where you have 3 across all crafts that auto-update...and in regards to one art only consuming power?? I just don't see why it should...</p><p>1 art to increase progress</p><p>1 art to increase durability</p><p>1 art to increase durability and progress at the cost of a higher loss in % success</p><p>Up'ing the ratio of how often a reaction has to occur, because we shouldn't need to button mash for best productivity</p>

[Nuhus]

<p>I think the average player should be able to figure out 6 buttons...... It's not that difficult.</p>

[Rashaak]

<p>You wouldn't think 6 would be confusing, but then again...</p><p>1st set is </p><p> + progress at cost of power, + progress at cost of durability, + progress at cost of % success</p><p>2nd set is</p><p>+ durability at cost of power, + durability at cost of progress, + progress at cost of % success</p><p>Honestly...rRight now...with it tier'd every 10 at least one set is less in power cost and points for either progress or durability, if it were to go to 6 every 20 levels...that would mean the sets would equal each other out at the cost of power consumption only...</p>

[Catsy]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>She is saying there will be 6 arts every 20 levels possibly, I'm saying that is too many and too confusing for a new player, not to mention if you want to have guides in game and such.</p><p>I am saying 6 arts every 20 levels is too much however 3 would work better...crafting doesn't need 6 arts to button mash.</p></blockquote>Is this parody?Look, no offense, because I'm usually the one taking the position that asking for something to be less tedious/annoying doesn't mean I want it all handed to me. But what you're suggesting is almost <i>literally</i> giving players an "easy button" to press. Sure, you can button mash your way through crafting and do an acceptable job. But to be really good at it, you have to pay attention to what arts you're using.In my opinion if <i>six abilities</i> is too much for a player to keep track of, they're really playing the wrong game. I would personally like to see <i>more</i> variety in the reaction arts, so that crafters have a reason to use more than one hotbar.Some thoughts on different effects the arts could have:- A large minus to durability or success, in exchange for a small (less than 1%) chance to have one random stat on the finished product significantly increased. You won't know if you succeed until the combine is finished.- High-level arts that make tiny adjustments to the stats on an item. Once you succeed with an upgrade, all further use of this art will fail. Using these arts does not increase progress or durability, has a low chance of success, and should involve a tradeoff: to increase the WIS on an item, it reduces another stat; to increase the stats on food, it reduces the health/power regen and vice versa, to increase the rent reduction on furniture... I dunno. Obviously some arts would be more useful to some classes than others, and there would have to be a balance so that no one class was overpowered or felt shortchanged. But it would give crafters the ability to customize their product for their customers.- Arts that sacrifice health instead of power for progress/durability.- Arts that buff your success/power regen/skill level/etc/chance at rare events for a short time (5-10 seconds or less).- Making reaction arts upgradeable in quality the same way spells and combat arts are.- Varying the reuse timers on powerful/advanced reaction arts. This would be especially interesting and could help balance the advanced effects if some of these advanced arts shared a reuse timer with the "standard" reaction arts, thus making their use a calculated risk that you wouldn't be able to respond to an event of that type before the reuse timer is up.The key to making these work, aside from balance issues, would be ensuring that for the most part these would be advanced, high-level arts which would not be <i>required</i> to be used in reaction to events. With some imagination, this could dramatically expand the toolkit available to expert crafters without putting an undue burden of complexity on novices.

[Generic123]

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite>- High-level arts that make tiny adjustments to the stats on an item. Once you succeed with an upgrade, all further use of this art will fail. Using these arts does not increase progress or durability, has a low chance of success, and should involve a tradeoff: to increase the WIS on an item, it reduces another stat; to increase the stats on food, it reduces the health/power regen and vice versa, to increase the rent reduction on furniture... I dunno. Obviously some arts would be more useful to some classes than others, and there would have to be a balance so that no one class was overpowered or felt shortchanged. But it would give crafters the ability to customize their product for their customers.</blockquote><p>I made a similar suggestion on the previous page.  I think the trick is how they would record it in the database.  I.E. they likely still want a single entry for an item, but I don't see why they couldn't treat stat modifiers much the same what they treat adornments.  I still like the idea of allowing this to stack a certain number of times, so that getting 1 modifier is still relatively uncommon, while getting 5 is extremely rare.  </p><p>I also really like the idea of changing up some of the timers.  If it were done properly it could make it so you have to think a lot more about what buff you uses.  </p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>She is saying there will be 6 arts every 20 levels possibly, I'm saying that is too many and too confusing for a new player, not to mention if you want to have guides in game and such.</p><p>I am saying 6 arts every 20 levels is too much however 3 would work better...crafting doesn't need 6 arts to button mash.</p></blockquote><p>Is this parody?Look, no offense, because I'm usually the one taking the position that asking for something to be less tedious/annoying doesn't mean I want it all handed to me. But what you're suggesting is almost <i>literally</i> giving players an "easy button" to press. Sure, you can button mash your way through crafting and do an acceptable job. But to be really good at it, you have to pay attention to what arts you're using.</p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">You know...in most instance I'd agree...however...</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Sure you have to have some type of basic understanding of crafting in order to craft, but to be really good at it, shouldn't mean you sit there with a full hotbar of abilities trying to remember which one does what. It is not like adventuring where the different skills you have could save your group or yourself</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Crafting naked makes no sense at all...and in the respects of realism...you stand naked in front of a forge...your gonna burn something valuable <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Example: A smith would be wearing some type of hard leathered gloves and apron, with something covering his face...not naked...</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">There is not a need to have six reaction arts especially since you only ever use three at any one time. As they are right now; they can not all be used in succesion with each other, so it all is redundant. Making a change to where you get the six that you normally use in your crafting progression at level one, is still redundant. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">EXAMPLE: (based off the interpretation I've read from Domino on the six abilities for every 20 levels)</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">You use your two abilities that increase progress and durability at cost of power, then turn around and use your two abilities that increase progress and durability at the cost of...progress and durability, then turn around and use your two abilities that increase progress and durability at the cost of % success. You've just cancelled yourself out and may have only actually increased your progress and durability by 10 on each, but lowered overall success and lost power. Just doesn't make sense to me...</span></p><p>In my opinion if <i>six abilities</i> is too much for a player to keep track of, they're really playing the wrong game. I would personally like to see <i>more</i> variety in the reaction arts, so that crafters have a reason to use more than one hotbar.<span style="color: #0000ff;">Same thing was said when the crafting changes took place over a year ago, same thing is always generally said when a change is made to the game or its mechanics. The thing you have to look at is balance. Six reaction arts that will equal each other out, spent across 20 levels before upgrading is redundant and can create complexity even for an experienced crafter... </span></p></blockquote>

[Catsy]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not like adventuring where the different skills you have could save your group or yourself</blockquote>Why not? Why shouldn't crafting mechanics offer the same level of complexity, diversity and challenge as adventuring? I'm not an adventurer hater; I primarily raid. But a big part of why I don't craft as much as I'd like is that it's not interesting or varied enough to keep my attention for more than a few hours at a stretch.<blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite></cite>Crafting naked makes no sense at all...and in the respects of realism...you stand naked in front of a forge...your gonna burn something valuable</blockquote>Let's not get hung up on the word "naked". All that means is that you remove equipment that increases your power pool. And if roleplaying or realism is your concern, come on: are you really going to want to wear heavy, sweaty armor in front of a hot forge? Would you cook dinner in plate mail? Does a tailor really want their finger dexterity hindered by thick leather gloves? Would you really want your best, most expensive gear or robes to get burned, ripped, or sullied by your craft?<blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite></cite>There is not a need to have six reaction arts especially since you only ever use three at any one time.</blockquote>Speak for yourself. I regularly use six. If I need to recover or front-load durability, I spam use the durability buffs. If I need progress, I use the progress buffs. If I want to cautiously advance progress without risking much durability loss, I use the progress power and -success buffs in combination with the +durability/-progress buff. If I have to counter a specific event, I have to be mindful of what order I'm casting these arts in and sometimes whether or not the recast timer will be up in time for the next event.Just because you choose not to take advantage of the complexity and tactical subtleties of the arts as they are now does not mean those subtleties should not exist.<blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite></cite>Same thing was said when the crafting changes took place over a year ago, same thing is always generally said when a change is made to the game or its mechanics.</blockquote>And sometimes the naysayers are right.More complexity and variety in the arts, please, not less.

[BK613]

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>More complexity and variety in the arts, please, not less.</blockquote>QFE!

[Rashaak]

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not like adventuring where the different skills you have could save your group or yourself</blockquote><p>Why not? Why shouldn't crafting mechanics offer the same level of complexity, diversity and challenge as adventuring? I'm not an adventurer hater; I primarily raid. But a big part of why I don't craft as much as I'd like is that it's not interesting or varied enough to keep my attention for more than a few hours at a stretch.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">How do you propose to make it more like adventuring? How are you going to add group dependancy and how many quests can you really do as a crafter? Crafting is a business/profession...and in any business large or small they are always looking for ways to improve the business. Streaming lining their service in order to increase productivity and profitability...</span></p><blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite></cite>Crafting naked makes no sense at all...and in the respects of realism...you stand naked in front of a forge...your gonna burn something valuable</blockquote><p>Let's not get hung up on the word "naked". All that means is that you remove equipment that increases your power pool. And if roleplaying or realism is your concern, come on: are you really going to want to wear heavy, sweaty armor in front of a hot forge? Would you cook dinner in plate mail? Does a tailor really want their finger dexterity hindered by thick leather gloves? Would you really want your best, most expensive gear or robes to get burned, ripped, or sullied by your craft?</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">I'm not getting hung up on anything...don't read into what I say...</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">I'm more than aware of removing power items prior to crafting to increase my productivity, but since most items that are worn have power...you practically craft naked. This is an <b><u>unnecessary </u></b>step and has NOTHING to do with RP at ALL. </span></p><blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite></cite>There is not a need to have six reaction arts especially since you only ever use three at any one time.</blockquote><p>Speak for yourself. I regularly use six. If I need to recover or front-load durability, I spam use the durability buffs. If I need progress, I use the progress buffs. If I want to cautiously advance progress without risking much durability loss, I use the progress power and -success buffs in combination with the +durability/-progress buff. If I have to counter a specific event, I have to be mindful of what order I'm casting these arts in and sometimes whether or not the recast timer will be up in time for the next event.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">You are not telling me anything I don't already know, and have had to do...trust me on this...</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">But you can only use 3 at one time in succession! You CAN'T use all 6 in succession (1 right after the other), because the 3 progress arts are on the same recast timer as the 3 durability arts. You shouldn't have to SPAM your buffseither, it makes no sense. </span></p><p>Just because you choose not to take advantage of the complexity and tactical subtleties of the arts as they are now does not mean those subtleties should not exist.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Just because you choose not to read my statements prior to speaking shouldn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about. Your getting tunnel vision on complexity and subtleties...if you want that so bad you need to go play Second Life, Vanguard or Sims...seriously. Crafting right now is a huge time sink, making it more complex just to add diversity doesn't make it better.</span></p><p><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite></cite>Same thing was said when the crafting changes took place over a year ago, same thing is always generally said when a change is made to the game or its mechanics.</p>And sometimes the naysayers are right.More complexity and variety in the arts, please, not less.</blockquote><p>Most often the naysayers and the world is ending folks generally freak out at the slightest change to the game. </p><p>Example: Crafting changes over a year ago that got rid of Interim products, Changes to the Death Penalty and Shard removal, Class revamps, Server merges, etc etc etc</p><p>Change is a necessity, especially in a game such as this...however...it is JUST a game. I don't want to spend hours cycling through reaction arts for complexity sake just to make a few items that don't sell for but for a few gold on the vendor.</p><p>Sorry...variety shouldn't be needed for the arts themselves...</p><p>but in the recipes we gain, yes</p><p>what your able to produce from the recipes, yes</p>

[Allurana]

<p>I have all 7 crafting professions at level 70 - I also have tinkering and transmuting at 350/350 skill.</p><p>I did all of these without assistance of any macro or bot programs.</p><p>AND I did every combine using durability counters.</p><p>This whole "There is a power issue" does NOT exist.  I never ran out of power and except for the first tier of each crafter which you have to craft with progress counters only I always made pristine items.</p><p>This perceived power issue is because people are impatient and trying to make the combines go faster.</p><p>Specific feedback for this thread and Domino is that Tier 1 is horrific to get through until you get your level 10 counters and can finally reliably craft items.  Every single crafting profession was horrific until I got the level 30 counters and then crafting turned into a cakewalk.</p><p>Every single one of my guildmates that would start into crafting would ask for me hints and tips and such.  I would tell them all the same thing, "Just grind up to level 30 any way you can and try to stay sane - once you hit level 30 - it becomes SUPER easy and just takes time to get to 70".</p><p>I would like to see progress AND durability counters be added each tier of progression.  I don't really see the point of having different counters per machine (except from a roleplaying standpoint).  You all could greatly simply this system by just having all the crafting professions use the same counter sets.</p>

[Calthine]

I'm grinding up a Tailor for Rijacki's challenge.  I got 50% pristine in Tier 1, and levels 10-25 I've only gotten three non-pristines.  So it's not impossible at all, or even hard, you just have to know how to use your arts.That being said, the learning curve on using your arts is way way too steep; I'm not sure a brand new player could get the same results.  Hopefully these changes plus the tutorial Domino was taking our feedback on will help that.

[Vatec]

As you can see from my sig, I've tried all the different tradeskills.  I wouldn't worry too much about them feeling more generic:  they already feel quite generic ;^)I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way.  It's nice to be able to switch from one to another and have them work in much the same way.  Right now, the only difference in "feel" among the classes is that some are a =lot= more frustrating than others due to weird "upgrades" to the reaction arts.  Well, and some level faster than others due to the imbalance in number of recipes (but that's a different topic entirely).So, here's what I would propose if I were making the changes (and I won't claim any of them are original ideas, I'm just summarizing based on the suggestions I've seen and my personal experience):A.  Three arts every ten levels is fine.  It's what we're used to and really not all that confusing to newbies, especially if the crafting tutorial is improved.B.  Durability should be the first set.  Progress second.  Lots of people have posted that this would make crafting less frustrating for newbies and certainly makes sense from a "real world" perspective.  When I worked in a millshop, my mentor taught "quality first, speed second."  I suspect most crafts work that way, even if "quality" consists in "pull the handles of the bellows <b>all the way apart</b> before squeezing them back together, you lazy apprentice!"C.  The six arts should upgrade automatically, if and only if they truly represent improvements.  In other words, if any of the "upgrades" are going to be a "step back" in effectiveness, like some are currently, then please don't upgrade them automatically.  I realize a "step forward" is somewhat subjective.  We can all agree that getting more progress for the same power would be a step forward, but getting double the progress for double the power might be arguable.  But whatever you do, please be consistent ;^)D.  The arts should be consistent across the tradeskills.  I'm not going to say they should be identical, though that would certainly be the easiest system to implement.  I can see some arguments in favor of giving the "harder" tradeskills better reaction arts to "compensate" for having fewer recipes.  But ultimately all nine tradeskills have access to writs, so I'm not convinced the "harder" arts need to be "compensated."  If you do decide to do so, make the differences minor at best.  If one tradeskill has a "lose 10% power for 40 progress" while another has "lose 40% power for 40 progress" it will not go over well, I suspect.  I'd say anything more than a 10% or 20% difference between the best and worst arts would be the maximum I'd risk.In any case, thanks for the effort you make to get our feedback and to keep us informed.  I certainly appreciate it and I'm sure most other crafters do as well.

[Killerbee3000]

consistency among all crafting classes and a proper scaling for the upgrades deserve top priority in my opinion if it comes to tradeskill arts.

[Rashaak]

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have all 7 crafting professions at level 70 - I also have tinkering and transmuting at 350/350 skill.</p><p>I did all of these without assistance of any macro or bot programs.</p><p>AND I did every combine using durability counters.</p><p>This whole "There is a power issue" does NOT exist.  I never ran out of power and except for the first tier of each crafter which you have to craft with progress counters only I always made pristine items.</p><p>This perceived power issue is because people are impatient and trying to make the combines go faster.</p><p>Specific feedback for this thread and Domino is that Tier 1 is horrific to get through until you get your level 10 counters and can finally reliably craft items.  Every single crafting profession was horrific until I got the level 30 counters and then crafting turned into a cakewalk.</p></blockquote><p>There is an issue with power...</p><p><i>A level 70 Toon, Fully geared, Power Pool = 6,100, Level 70 drink running with 105 points per tick. Time to med up from 0 = 58 ticks = 5 minutes, 48 seconds. Power regained during a 1 minute combine = 17% </i></p><p><i>A Level 10 Toon, Naked, Power pool = 220, Level 20 superior drink running with 20 points per tick. Time to med up from 0 = 11 ticks = 1 minute and 6 seconds. Power regained during a 1 minute combine : 91% (The numbers are not 100% realistic as other factors needs to be included in the calculations, but hopefully you get the point) </i></p><p><i>Lowering your power-pool DOES NOT impact your crafting abilities (since they all work in percentages), but since you regain your power that much faster with a lower power-pool, you will not be as prone to running out of power.</i></p><p>As you see..there is an issue...the fact that you have a greater % chance of loosing power fully geared vs naked (no power items being worn) IS the issue. Its not the matter of the individual who doesn't have an issue loosing power, but the many who have expressed numerous concerns in regards to loosing power.</p><p>To be honest your opinion that people are impatient when crafting is inaccurate and there are no facts to back it up. Being impatient has nothing to do with the arts at all. The fact is crafting is a huge time sink the way it is right now, so for the casual gamer crafting is less of an interest and will avoid it. </p><p>I'm fully aware that there are some exceptions to this, as some casual gamers rather enjoy crafting the way it is, but thats not what this topic is about. It's about the tradeskill arts...and in respects to ONE art and ONE art only consuming power, it is an issue. Either have all arts use power, remove power consumption from the art, or re-do the percentage ratio so that a player doesn't have to remove half their adventure gear to gain the best benefit from crafting.</p><p>Also...level 1 to 9 is easy to get through without going to the crafting guide that has you make different items for your +1 to all crafts tunic (which is a joke, the harvest bag can prove to be beneficial, but only till level 20). All you have to do is stick with one crafting station, with your harvests, fuels...and start. The easiest is the Forge because you can craft armor and weapons easily enough whether they are pristine or not and make your money back buy selling them to the vendor.</p><p>So adjusting the arts for level 1-9 is not the issue, it never has been...</p><p>Now...off topic a bit...one of things to make it less confusing is NOT having to go find the NPC to move from Artisan to your respective Sub-Class/Craft, and then back again at lvl 19 to be placed into your final Profession. If you really want to lesson the confusion of a new crafter removal of both the archtype and subclass of crafting should happen. Especially in respects to the 'proposed' change of the tradeskill arts, because then it would make sense to have these 'six' (still don't need, but thats not the point right now) arts at level 1.</p><p>Right now though...as an Artisan you'll use arts in accordance with the 7 different crafting stations...so now you've just doubled the amount of arts between level 1 to level 9 and made it even more of a mess..</p><p>In closing, the power consumption from the one art is an issue because the way it consumes MORE power fully geared rather than not. Having to remove your adventure gear to beat the power consumption ratio from the tradeskill art is an unnecessary step. </p>

[Allurana]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There is an issue with power...</p><p><i>A level 70 Toon, Fully geared, Power Pool = 6,100, Level 70 drink running with 105 points per tick. Time to med up from 0 = 58 ticks = 5 minutes, 48 seconds. Power regained during a 1 minute combine = 17% </i></p><p><i>A Level 10 Toon, Naked, Power pool = 220, Level 20 superior drink running with 20 points per tick. Time to med up from 0 = 11 ticks = 1 minute and 6 seconds. Power regained during a 1 minute combine : 91% (The numbers are not 100% realistic as other factors needs to be included in the calculations, but hopefully you get the point) </i></p><p><i>Lowering your power-pool DOES NOT impact your crafting abilities (since they all work in percentages), but since you regain your power that much faster with a lower power-pool, you will not be as prone to running out of power.</i></p><p>As you see..there is an issue...the fact that you have a greater % chance of loosing power fully geared vs naked (no power items being worn) IS the issue. Its not the matter of the individual who doesn't have an issue loosing power, but the many who have expressed numerous concerns in regards to loosing power.</p><p>To be honest your opinion that people are impatient when crafting is inaccurate and there are no facts to back it up. Being impatient has nothing to do with the arts at all. The fact is crafting is a huge time sink the way it is right now, so for the casual gamer crafting is less of an interest and will avoid it. </p></blockquote><p>1.  I do not argue with your math and statements about the mechnics of the crafting system as it exists currently.</p><p>2.  My opinion is just that, my opinion.  That does not make it inaccurate, it simply makes it an opinion.</p><p>As to the validity of my opinion, I clarified my credentials at the beginning of my post - I have ALL crafter professions at level 70 that I got there with real life human fingers pushing buttons on each and every combine through all those levels.  I NEVER (let me repeat for empathsis) NEVER ran out of power and NEVER took off my gear.</p><p>There is NO POWER problem.</p><p>It is however entirely possible for me to craft and continuely run out of power while crafting.  I could easily accomplish that feat by "being impatient" and pressing the counters way more than needed and by using the progress counters as to "speed up" the combine.</p><p>Thus you can now clearly see why my opinion and conclusion is that people that experience this "power problem" must be impatient and are basically pressing too many buttons too often.</p><p>Does my post say that I wish for the "power problem" to continue to exist?  No, I actually feel that the % mechanic is something that should be addressed but it is by no means game breaking except as an inconvience to an impatient few.</p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1.  I do not argue with your math and statements about the mechnics of the crafting system as it exists currently.</p><p><i>Don't have to agree with my math...but maybe Domino's will </i><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=381648�" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><i>help you</i></a></p><p>2.  My opinion is just that, my opinion.  That does not make it inaccurate, it simply makes it an opinion.</p><p>As to the validity of my opinion, I clarified my credentials at the beginning of my post - I have ALL crafter professions at level 70 that I got there with real life human fingers pushing buttons on each and every combine through all those levels.  I NEVER (let me repeat for empathsis) NEVER ran out of power and NEVER took off my gear.</p><p>There is NO POWER problem.</p><p><i>Credentials? You speak as your the only one with crafters at 70...don't make assumptions, mmmkay <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></i></p><p><i>It is possible to NOT run out of power yes, I don't disagree with that, however it does and will happen especially for a NEW crafter who is not familiar with their arts.</i> </p><p>It is however entirely possible for me to craft and continuely run out of power while crafting.  I could easily accomplish that feat by "being impatient" and pressing the counters way more than needed and by using the progress counters as to "speed up" the combine.</p><p>Thus you can now clearly see why my opinion and conclusion is that people that experience this "power problem" must be impatient and are basically pressing too many buttons too often.</p><p><i>Again thats an assumption at best that people are impatient, it's okay to have an opinion...but it becomes an assumption because your basing<u> your</u> individual results as the base rather than the what is normally reported. </i></p><p><i>I'm glad you were able to do crafting without loosing power, good for you...but don't be impatient in responding that others are impatient and try to validate it on your  own personal experience...review the tradeskill thread you'll see there's been several questions asked about power consumption.</i></p><p>Does my post say that I wish for the "power problem" to continue to exist?  No, I actually feel that the % mechanic is something that should be addressed but it is by no means game breaking except as an inconvience to an impatient few.</p><i>Is anything ever game breaking? No, because theres always a work around. The measures put in place to combat the high power consumption or 'tips and tricks' is a work around for a faulty % breakdown of power consumption. It either needs to be redone or removed...</i></blockquote>

[Allurana]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1.  I do not argue with your math and statements about the mechnics of the crafting system as it exists currently.</p><p><i>Don't have to agree with my math...but maybe Domino's will </i><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=381648�" target="_blank"><i>help you</i></a></p><p>2.  My opinion is just that, my opinion.  That does not make it inaccurate, it simply makes it an opinion.</p><p>As to the validity of my opinion, I clarified my credentials at the beginning of my post - I have ALL crafter professions at level 70 that I got there with real life human fingers pushing buttons on each and every combine through all those levels.  I NEVER (let me repeat for empathsis) NEVER ran out of power and NEVER took off my gear.</p><p>There is NO POWER problem.</p><p><i>Credentials? You speak as your the only one with crafters at 70...don't make assumptions, mmmkay <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Where did I make that assumption?  I simple tried to exclaim my in-game experience and the depth of that experience - since I have gone through each and every level in every tradeskill class it only stands to reason that I have a more "thorough" understanding of each and every crafting class and their possible trials and tribulations.</span></i></p><p><i>It is possible to NOT run out of power yes, I don't disagree with that, however it does and will happen especially for a NEW crafter who is not familiar with their arts.</i>  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Ok???  So where is the problem other than a learning curve for new folks?</span></p><p>It is however entirely possible for me to craft and continuely run out of power while crafting.  I could easily accomplish that feat by "being impatient" and pressing the counters way more than needed and by using the progress counters as to "speed up" the combine.</p><p>Thus you can now clearly see why my opinion and conclusion is that people that experience this "power problem" must be impatient and are basically pressing too many buttons too often.</p><p><i>Again thats an assumption at best that people are impatient, it's okay to have an opinion...but it becomes an assumption because your basing<u> your</u> individual results as the base rather than the what is normally reported. </i></p><p><i>I'm glad you were able to do crafting without loosing power, good for you...but don't be impatient in responding that others are impatient and try to validate it on your  own personal experience...review the tradeskill thread you'll see there's been several questions asked about power consumption.  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Where was my impatience in my post, because I actually responded to someone telling me my opinion was "inaccurate" and thus my defense of my opinion?  </span><a href="http://www.dictionary.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ffcc33;">www.dictionary.com</span></a><span style="color: #ffcc33;"> search opinion - you will see nothing in there that talks about the word "fact" at least you shouldn't, haha.  I have read the tradeskill threads, I see lots of people voicing their concerns and complaining about the perceieved power problem - is it a problem? No.  Should the crafting system work the way it does? No  Is it so game breaking and inconveniencing that the devs should be wasting one second of their time on it?  No.  Once again, my opinion.</span></i></p><p>Does my post say that I wish for the "power problem" to continue to exist?  No, I actually feel that the % mechanic is something that should be addressed but it is by no means game breaking except as an inconvience to an impatient few.</p><i>Is anything ever game breaking? No, because theres always a work around. The measures put in place to combat the high power consumption or 'tips and tricks' is a work around for a faulty % breakdown of power consumption. It either needs to be redone or removed...  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Agreed, but last on the priority list since it really poses no real problem to game play whatsoever.  I would love to see Domino have all the time, money and additional staff possible to get to her wish list which I am sure is lengthy and much more deserving than this.</span></i></blockquote></blockquote>

[Rashaak]

<blockquote><cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p>1.  I do not argue with your math and statements about the mechnics of the crafting system as it exists currently.</p><p><i>Don't have to agree with my math...but maybe Domino's will </i><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=381648�" target="_blank"><i>help you</i></a></p><p>2.  My opinion is just that, my opinion.  That does not make it inaccurate, it simply makes it an opinion.</p><p>As to the validity of my opinion, I clarified my credentials at the beginning of my post - I have ALL crafter professions at level 70 that I got there with real life human fingers pushing buttons on each and every combine through all those levels.  I NEVER (let me repeat for empathsis) NEVER ran out of power and NEVER took off my gear.</p><p>There is NO POWER problem.</p><p><i>Credentials? You speak as your the only one with crafters at 70...don't make assumptions, mmmkay <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Where did I make that assumption?  I simple tried to exclaim my in-game experience and the depth of that experience - since I have gone through each and every level in every tradeskill class it only stands to reason that I have a more "thorough" understanding of each and every crafting class and their possible trials and tribulations.</span></i></p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">Thats great..you have a lot of in-game experience. Good for you! You probably also went through Interdependancy and Cross-Skill's in crafting as well as the crafting update June of 05. So to YOU personally theres not an issue, however your assumption is that you think you have more 'thorough' understanding than others, and the fact is...whether you have one or nine crafters...the issues are still the same across the board.</span></p><p><i>It is possible to NOT run out of power yes, I don't disagree with that, however it does and will happen especially for a NEW crafter who is not familiar with their arts.</i>  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Ok???  So where is the problem other than a learning curve for new folks?</span></p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">For an experienced crafter such as you so graciously reminded me...a new crafter will not want to craft if the arts are too confusing and they have to get a degree in EQ2Crafting to tell them the 'science' to crafting. They want to play and learn to craft...not learn about physics and coding...</span></p><p>It is however entirely possible for me to craft and continuely run out of power while crafting.  I could easily accomplish that feat by "being impatient" and pressing the counters way more than needed and by using the progress counters as to "speed up" the combine.</p><p>Thus you can now clearly see why my opinion and conclusion is that people that experience this "power problem" must be impatient and are basically pressing too many buttons too often.</p><p><i>Again thats an assumption at best that people are impatient, it's okay to have an opinion...but it becomes an assumption because your basing<u> your</u> individual results as the base rather than the what is normally reported. </i></p><p><i>I'm glad you were able to do crafting without loosing power, good for you...but don't be impatient in responding that others are impatient and try to validate it on your  own personal experience...review the tradeskill thread you'll see there's been several questions asked about power consumption.  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Where was my impatience in my post, because I actually responded to someone telling me my opinion was "inaccurate" and thus my defense of my opinion?  </span><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dictionary.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ffcc33;">www.dictionary.com</span></a><span style="color: #ffcc33;"> search opinion - you will see nothing in there that talks about the word "fact" at least you shouldn't, haha.  I have read the tradeskill threads, I see lots of people voicing their concerns and complaining about the perceieved power problem - is it a problem? No.  Should the crafting system work the way it does? No  Is it so game breaking and inconveniencing that the devs should be wasting one second of their time on it?  No.  Once again, my opinion.</span></i></p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">The fact you say it's impatient players is the cause for 'power problems' IS inaccurate. Since you didn't believe my math...I linked the dev's explanation which I hope was a bit more simplicitic for you...</span></p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">Just because YOU took the time to craft using your durability buffs and spent the hours upon hours crafting diligently (which theres nothing wrong with). I applaud you...but your telling me that the many crafters who do Tradeskill Writs are impatient?? I don't think so...</span></p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">The timed writs are the ones that give the best possible status and coin, but they are timed. I'm sure any one here who has done a timed writ can tell you...in order to get the order done IN-TIME, you need to use the Progress buffs as much as possible. </span></p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">As talented a crafter as you are I'm sure you know this already. I'm also sure you know you need to use the Progress buff's in order to complete them in the Time given, which means you end up using the Art that consumes power. Which means, it creates the issue of high power loss while wearing gear that provide power. </span></p><p>Does my post say that I wish for the "power problem" to continue to exist?  No, I actually feel that the % mechanic is something that should be addressed but it is by no means game breaking except as an inconvience to an impatient few.</p><i>Is anything ever game breaking? No, because theres always a work around. The measures put in place to combat the high power consumption or 'tips and tricks' is a work around for a faulty % breakdown of power consumption. It either needs to be redone or removed...  <span style="color: #ffcc33;">Agreed, but last on the priority list since it really poses no real problem to game play whatsoever.  I would love to see Domino have all the time, money and additional staff possible to get to her wish list which I am sure is lengthy and much more deserving than this.</span></i></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Well...since power consumption is tied into the Tradeskill arts...it is as much as a priority as the feedback that Domino is looking to receive about the Tradeskill Arts. YOU personally didn't have an issue, thats great, however that doesn't mean theres not an issue.

[TaleraRis]

I don't agree that doing writs means you will run out of power. I always do Rush Writs, finish with 2 minutes or more to spare, and never run out of power on any crafter I have, including my main 66 ranger in all her normal gear. You do need to use your progress buffs, but that doesn't mean you need to use the ones that consume power. I don't know how others do it, but this is my setup.I use the number keys at the top of my keyboard directly above the QWERTY line   5 6 7 and 9 0 - for my own comfort. 5 6 7 are all my best durability skills. 5 is always the skill that decreases progress and increases durability. I try to find the best skill (not always of the most recent tier) that gives me the best durability increase while not sacrificing too much progress6 is always the skill that decreases success chance and increases durability. Again, I try to find a good balanced skill that increases as much durability as possible while not sacrificing too much of the success chance. 7 is my pure durability skill that is the only skill that uses power.9 0 - are my progress buffs. 9 is always my skill to increase progress while decreasing durability, carefully chosen to be a good balance as with the durability counterpart. 0 is again my skill that decreases success chance and increases progress again, chosen to be the one with the best balance of both. - is my pure progress skill that is the only skill that uses power. For example, my 63 woodworker is set up like this:5 is Carving - Decreases progress by 30 and increases durability by 15  - level 306 is Appraise - Decreases success chance by 6% and increases durability by 20  - level 307 is Clamp - Increases durability by 20  - level 519 is Crosshatch - Decreases durability by 15 and increases progress by 35  - level 61 0 is Calibrate - Decreases success chance by 12% and increases progress by 35  - level 61- is Vice - Increases progress by 35 - level 61I usually try to keep at least one skill that I will use on a regular basis in my current tier at least until my skills are maxed again. That's just the current good setup with my woodworker.  I use the same setup for all my crafters. Now, here is how I craft. I keep my index finger on 6, my middle finger on 7 (I'm right handed) and my pinkie finger on 9.   I start the recipe and hit 9, then 6, then let things lie and wait for the next tick. I periodically repeat those two to keep things going, or some ticks I just hit 9 only or 6 only if either progress or durability are getting a bit tetchy. I try to space hitting my skills to coincide with countering the cues. I *only* use the power consumption skill if I am countering or if things have gone very pear shaped and I need that no-penality durability or progress. I have a provisioner, so I end up using decent drink, but I've never had enough trouble that I had to add totems to the list, so that is all I craft with. I craft in full adventure gear on everyone, and they span in level from teens, 20s, mid 30s to the level 66. Now, this is just my tactic. It's not for everyone. I *did* want to point out however that is is very possible to succeed at rush writs in plenty of time without having to run out of power or change your gear. I do it all the time. The big thing is that I had to learn all this on my own. I had to try trial and error since launch and figure out which skills were going to benefit me the most and find a winning setup for the way I like to craft. If I had any complaint with the skill setup it's that there just isn't enough direction in the game itself on how to use your skills successfully. I don't think the answer is decreasing the rather intriguing complexity of the skill system, or altering the % base of power usage, but instead to offer more in-game guidance during the tutorial on both using your skills and using them well.

[FracasKrusher]

<p>Dear DominoDev,</p><p>Should all of the tradeskill arts for each class be essentially the same (in this example, fix carpenter and weaponsmith and leave the others as is)?  </p><p> Yes please.  </p><p>It may give a generic feeling between the crafter classes, but this will make it easier to learn also.</p><p>Cleaner, easier system would be easier to maintain/fix on the programming end I would presume.</p><p>Make the classes non generic by the differing the products they make. </p><p>Each class need some  "cash" products to make cash on a consistent basis. </p><p>Currently just a few classes (alchemist's making potions/poisons, woodworkers on ammo, provisioners on food/drink come to mind) make items needed on a daily basis by adventurers.</p><p>Tappit</p><p>Master Crafter (70 in All, 350 tinkerer/transmuter)</p><p>Reckless Abandon Guild on Crushbone server</p>

[Cadori Seraphim]

To answer the question (and quite honestly I thought I had posted in this thread before but couldnt find it so if this is a double post I am sorry)Yes I think the tradeskill arts for each class to essentially be the same. I see no reason or point for them to be so different (other then the names of the art in order to match the trade).I understand random things happen but with crafting it does seem far too often that, currently, these tradeskill arts dont do what the description tells us they will do. For example, I have often botched up matching one of the counters and hit the wrong art.. yet instead of messing up my product it made it alot better! Now I dont want tradeskilling super hard by any means, but if you mess up one of these then I would think the result should not be very pleasant. After all, I think this would help counter all of the AFK crafting bots out there if this were the case.Anyhow, this may have been mentioned before, I just skimmed the many pages so I am sure I missed alot.

[Galeden]

<p>*Edited*</p><p>Ignore this post, I already found the same question and the answer to it.  Looking forward to seeing what the new system will be like.</p>

[Birkenstocky]

<p>Again haven't actually gotten to try the new beta stuff but as a hardcore crafter the most frustrating thing teaching new guild members or players is how to use their reactive buffs.</p><p> The first problem in this is that at level 9 and below you dont have durability and progress you only get like 2 or 3 I think ... and that means its luck on pristine .. looking back to posts about crude, shaped etc will be eliminated this seriously hurts lower level crafters trying to make any rare or even just normal items.  </p><p> To me it isnt until about either level 20 or 30 that I feel you can comfortably make "pristine" with comfort based on the buffs you get ... argue with me np at all ... but its rough until then.  If you do away with a finished product for those levels it will lead to frustration unless the buffs are changed.  </p><p> If I am double posting I am sorry I read through many pages of this post but will admit to not reading all since july heh.</p><p> Thanks</p>

[Killerbee3000]

<cite>Birkenstocky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Again haven't actually gotten to try the new beta stuff but as a hardcore crafter the most frustrating thing teaching new guild members or players is how to use their <b>reactive</b> buffs. </p></blockquote>thats one of the little things that sohuld be changed... you need to use them pro actively, not reactively... i think they should be called something more clear to assist the noobs, i find that calling them reactives could be rather missleading.

[feldon30]

I am pretty new to tradeskilling. I took a very logical approach to tradeskilling and as a result, fell flat on my face many many times. At first, I could NEVER make pristine. And I would run out of power almost always. I completely misunderstood what the 6 buttons did, or even that they upgraded over time.It took me many many times making mistakes and having some fundamental shifts in how I view the process before I realized how it works. Tradeskilling is, to me, a game-within-a-game. I now get pristine 98% of the time and I do complete rush orders whenever I have time with a high success rate.I applaud the idea of moving towards fewer buttons and buttons that upgrade, but there is the issue which people have mentioned that sometimes you need to react but are extremely low on mana. So we need some mechanism for reacting to that 3rd button even if we are low on mana.I think the idea of phasing out the first 2 levels of quality is probably a good thing. It would clean up the broker and reduce itemization, but making either pristine-or-nothing is too draconian. I'm looking forward to seeing the tutorials and how things are presented. I've taught several people, just by explaining, how to get pristine 95-99% of the time and in a timely manner with 3 buttons (Durability [chance], Durability [progress], Progress [power]). To be able to do Rush Orders, all 6 buttons are necessary.I would really like to see an overhaul of the "reactions". Right now I view reactions in two ways:<b>When I first start crafting, events are an annoyance which get in the way of my systematic button-pushing.</b> It is very often that I am in the middle of completing a button sequence (either Prog 1, Prog 2, Prog 3 or Dura 1, Dura 2, Prog 3) when one of those problems comes up and I am heavily penalized for pressing the "wrong button at the wrong time".No other part of EQ penalizes you for taking action like this. It is this "itchy trigger finger" element of tradeskilling that I find annoying and counterintuitive. I haven't thought of the ideal solution, but requiring that I stop all other actions and press the requested button and then sit patiently and wait for the event to clear (often while durability is sinking like a stone) is not a good design.There has to be some other way to present and respond to events without penalizing me for having a "system" that otherwise works. Perhaps a separate challenge-response system where a widget on the crafting table glows red and we have to click on it. Probably sounds silly, and I am sure many people like to tradeskill with the keyboard only. Hmm...Now you will remember I said there are two feelings I have about events.<b>Towards the end of crafting</b>, I am either low on mana or progress or durability is nosediving. <b>When an event comes up and I quickly counter it, the crafting gets a much-appreciated boost.</b>Suffice it to say I am crafting like a fool before the work/rush order nerfs go through. I have to admit they are giving a lot of XP. I gain a tradeskill level every 3-4 rush orders I complete (currently level 35).

[Mikkahl]

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><b>When I first start crafting, events are an annoyance which get in the way of my systematic button-pushing.</b> It is very often that I am in the middle of completing a button sequence (either Prog 1, Prog 2, Prog 3 or Dura 1, Dura 2, Prog 3) when one of those problems comes up and I am heavily penalized for pressing the "wrong button at the wrong time".<p><span style="color: #00cc66;">Sounds like you are not "synchronizing" yourself with the table "ticks".  You wait for the tick to happen (the red/green numbers appearing above the table and floating up, plus one of several sound effects) before pressing your skill buttons.  Events ONLY happen at the same instant as the numbers appear for the current tick.  If no events appear, you may press the 3 buttons of your choice.  If an event appears, you have 2 choices of skills to press FIRST to counter the event - durability or progress.  After pressing that first button to successfully counter the event, you may still immediately press the other 2 buttons of your choice.  So, there is no reason you cannot press all 3 skill buttons of your choice every tick, even when an event occurs.  The only thing you have to do is change the ORDER of which of the 3 buttons you press first.  Once an event has changed my order, I usually continue in the new order until another event changes it again, because the recast time works out better that way.  The recast times of the skills are designed to be just a little shorter than the table tick time.</span></p><p>No other part of EQ penalizes you for taking action like this. It is this "itchy trigger finger" element of tradeskilling that I find annoying and counterintuitive. I haven't thought of the ideal solution, but requiring that I stop all other actions and press the requested button and then sit patiently and wait for the event to clear (often while durability is sinking like a stone) is not a good design.<span style="color: #009966;">It indeed sounds like you have the "itchy trigger finger", because your pressing buttons randomly and not synchronized with the table ticks.</span></p></blockquote>

[Calthine]

I'll agree with that - watch your timing.  The events only occur right at the start of the round (a round is 4 seconds).

[StormCinder]

<cite>Mikkahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><b>When I first start crafting, events are an annoyance which get in the way of my systematic button-pushing.</b> It is very often that I am in the middle of completing a button sequence (either Prog 1, Prog 2, Prog 3 or Dura 1, Dura 2, Prog 3) when one of those problems comes up and I am heavily penalized for pressing the "wrong button at the wrong time".<p><span style="color: #00cc66;">Sounds like you are not "synchronizing" yourself with the table "ticks".  You wait for the tick to happen (the red/green numbers appearing above the table and floating up, plus one of several sound effects) before pressing your skill buttons.  Events ONLY happen at the same instant as the numbers appear for the current tick.  If no events appear, you may press the 3 buttons of your choice.  If an event appears, you have 2 choices of skills to press FIRST to counter the event - durability or progress.  After pressing that first button to successfully counter the event, you may still immediately press the other 2 buttons of your choice.  So, there is no reason you cannot press all 3 skill buttons of your choice every tick, even when an event occurs.  The only thing you have to do is change the ORDER of which of the 3 buttons you press first.  Once an event has changed my order, I usually continue in the new order until another event changes it again, because the recast time works out better that way.  The recast times of the skills are designed to be just a little shorter than the table tick time.</span></p><p>No other part of EQ penalizes you for taking action like this. It is this "itchy trigger finger" element of tradeskilling that I find annoying and counterintuitive. I haven't thought of the ideal solution, but requiring that I stop all other actions and press the requested button and then sit patiently and wait for the event to clear (often while durability is sinking like a stone) is not a good design.<span style="color: #009966;">It indeed sounds like you have the "itchy trigger finger", because your pressing buttons randomly and not synchronized with the table ticks.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009966;"><span style="color: #ffff33;">You don't have to wait for a countered event to clear to execute the your other arts.  As a matter of fact, you get up to 2 free clickies after you've countered.</span></span></p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Whysprr_Wyrd]

<p>Dear Domino, </p><p>I haven't thought about this carefully enough to make specific suggestions.  I'd like to make broad, philosophical comments here that are of about as much use to a hard-nosed developer as a twenty-pound lead mallet is to an expert seamstress.  So sue me.  </p><p><b>1. Diversify, don't homogenize</b></p><p>Whether you do it between classes, or by some sort of personal-choice scheme, provide <b>wildly </b>different pathways to the same end.  Different crafters should be as different as Troubadors and Necromancers.  One might well say 'Ahh, who needs Troubadors anyway?' but that's a different thread.  You might argue that that's the route to balance problems and endless flaming on the message boards.  You can balance stuff as you go along, and balance is a much-overrated commodity anyhow.  Message board flames, well, there's no hope for that anyhow.  Dip the trolls in acid and get on with your life.  </p><p><b>2. Spend more effort on color, fun, and inspired weirdness than on balance</b></p><p>Put a few things in the system that're just there because <b>that's the way it is</b>, not because of some overarching design goal.  The real world has those sorts of bumps and squiggles, the system will feel a hundred times more 'real' if it's a little goofy around the edges, because anyone who's involved with the bits of the real world that don't display on LCD screens knows that the word 'goofy' is practically a law of nature.  </p><p>If you balance the crafting system for hyperoptimized powercrafters, you'll end up with a game full of hyperoptimized powercrafters, and dental work is more fun.  There are squinty-eyed min-maxers out there that scrutinize every situation for the least little advantage.  They'll chew you to bits if you let them.  Lofty contempt is the answer to that; plus letting the ol' marketplace grind 'em a bit; if the best pathway is provisioner and all the min-maxers become provies, well, it's not the best pathway anymore.  Balance between classes isn't really even the right way of thinking about it.  Real balance is making certain <b>everyone has cool stuff to do</b>.  </p><p>It bugs me to have to strip out of my adventuring gear to craft.  But it has a sort of logic; anyone who really wants to do good jewelery probably doesn't do it in chanmail gauntlets, though how exactly I play combat-mandolin in chainmail gauntlets I leave as an exercise to the interested reader.  In fantasy gaming logic needs to be kept on a short leash and smacked around if it acts up.  The point is, naked-crafting is exactly the sort of strange, peculiar, off-center thing the system should encourage, though I'd prefer if you put dressing rooms in the crafting instances, some of those Barbarians look at me funny.  </p><p>Love your work, by the way.  And if you build something into the system that slightly humiliates the Troubs, well, that's just gravy.  </p><p>Whysprr</p>

[Immohtep]

<p>Hi all,</p><p>I have 2 suggestions, one relates more to current thread than the second. Domino has eluded to figuring out ways to keep the seperation of tradeskill classes from being "cookie-cutter" in terms of playablity. I don't have time to search around to see if this was suggested, but what if like an adventuring class, we could have "manuals" of techniques. For instance, in order to do the most damage possible with a melee weapon. We use "Masters". In order to get that "dove-tail joint" just right...why not a dropable "Master technique". It's basically like advanced books are now, but improves "given" abilitys that we already recieve thru leveling. So in order to make a pristine uber-chest-piece. You have a chance to make it with no master and being leveled way beyond it. But if you DO have this master. You have a much greater chance to create it "at-level".</p><p>This way, everyone is unique based upon how many Master Techniques they have. So not only will player A of craft A be different from player B of craft B. But they will be different amoung players of the same tradeskill. There also dosen't have to be an adept 3 version for each skill. Instead there can be something of an apprentice 4 version buyable from vendors. Let's go even further. Make the master drops useable for say...5 levels.You get a new skill set at level 10,20,30 etc now. But learning this master technique at level 30 will grant you better ability thru level 35. And so on. Stagger it a bit like combat arts, but not quite as involved. App2, app3,app4...adept 1, 3..Master. It always seemed a bit much to have so many levels for the same art. Anyway, lest i ramble, that's suggestion #1.</p><p>Suggestion #2: Create an epic quest for crafters. My idea is a recipe that uses ALL of the current rares for certain tiers. So perhaps starting at level 40 you can get this quest. From there you work your way up to making the final combine at level 50. Once you've completed this. You can make this item (or items) for the player base. The quality should rivial that of very high legendary or slightly lower raid centric loot.Still much better than the Pristine imbued xegonite chestpiece. But less than a fabled set armor BP(as an example).These items can be tailored to fit each tradeskill class. Each with it's own unique properties. The folks who make adornments could make some with more than one benefit etc. The carpenters? Well, i'm sure someone could come up with an idea. But you all get the point ; )</p><p>Ok EDIT: Seems a few ppl came up with a variation on my first suggestion. So call that a bump? lol. I still adventure. so if anyone has Suggestion #2 going, let that be a bump too! Time to go slay something...</p>

[Sunlei]

<p> I'd like to see the mentor system used somehow in crafting. </p><p>Everyone, no matter your adventurer lvl, clothed or unclothed has the exact same power pool size and exact same regen. The amounts can scale up as the crafter lvls because the higher lvl a recipe the more it takes to finish. could this level the 'playing' field and have a more consistant baseline for all?</p><p>Would also love if anyone who crafts with complete ease, fast and with hardly any power loss posts a youtube showing a hard rush order. I've never seen any vids like that.</p>

[Calthine]

<cite>Sunlei wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> I'd like to see the mentor system used somehow in crafting. </p><p>Everyone, no matter your adventurer lvl, clothed or unclothed has the exact same power pool size and exact same regen. The amounts can scale up as the crafter lvls because the higher lvl a recipe the more it takes to finish. could this level the 'playing' field and have a more consistant baseline for all?</p><p>Would also love if anyone who crafts with complete ease, fast and with hardly any power loss posts a youtube showing a hard rush order. I've never seen any vids like that.</p></blockquote>"no power loss" isn't important.  Having enough power to do what you want to is.  They aren't necessarily the same thing.

[Sunlei]

<p>  Power regen rates are capped by adventurer level.  A lvl 70 adventurer /w crafting at any lvl has a huge natural power regen advantage. Thats what I meant about equal across all lvls of crafting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>now that I think about it, could also give low lvl adventurer..lvl 70 crafter the lvl 70 power regen CAP only when crafting.. ..that would be a fine thing too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Hanoverian]

<p>Regarding Domino's OP, "How do we Address This?" Option 3...I would not like that idea at all.  Even at high level crafting, I still use the lowest level buffs, if only because sometimes I have an ounce of power left and that's all that will come up when I need to counter. </p>

[einar4]

<p> Personally I'm a bit pessimistic about these changes to enable an Only Pristine success paradigm.  IMO, I have the feeling that in the verve to implement this your team will end up so nerfing the skills that it will take numerous attempts for pristine combines on even the simplest green recipes.  It may be that I am a bit cynical, having seen these kinds of "cool new idea" implementations since EQ1.   I just feel that this will be so implemented to discourage all but the most tenacious 24/7 tradeskill players and discourage everyone else, and I fear that this is being done as a "Frustration By Design" method to artificially increase the rarity of tradeskill generated items.  Those few fanatical tradeskillers that are the most vocal will love the change and give glowing complimentary feedback, while everyone else will just walk away in frustration. </p><p> IMO the very nature of a "tradeskill" implies that it is not rare, but is a common staple of the populace at large. </p><p> I remember the old days of EQ1 tradeskills, where you hunted green(grey) spiders for 16 hours to get 12 combines worth of silk, then lost most of it for 1 finished item, and gained no skill increases.  Are we going back to those days now? </p>

[feldon30]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll agree with that - watch your timing.  The events only occur right at the start of the round (a round is 4 seconds).</blockquote>Sorry I did not respond sooner.I will try to consign myself to the "4 second timer".I am trying to jibe what you are saying with the sometimes 2 and 3 back-to-back events I get sometimes. I see no way to predict or counteract these randomly timed events. Looking forward to further feedback.

[feldon30]

<cite>Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Personally I'm a bit pessimistic about these changes to enable an Only Pristine success paradigm.  IMO, I have the feeling that in the verve to implement this your team will end up so nerfing the skills that it will take numerous attempts for pristine combines on even the simplest green recipes.  It may be that I am a bit cynical, having seen these kinds of "cool new idea" implementations since EQ1.   I just feel that this will be so implemented to discourage all but the most tenacious 24/7 tradeskill players and discourage everyone else, and I fear that this is being done as a "Frustration By Design" method to artificially increase the rarity of tradeskill generated items.  Those few fanatical tradeskillers that are the most vocal will love the change and give glowing complimentary feedback, while everyone else will just walk away in frustration.</p></blockquote>I've taught several people how to make pristine 95-99% of the time. It does not take "24/7" gameplay to make pristine every time. Just a rethinking of the process. It is alien to how the rest of EQ2 works so it must be learned as a separate thing. It was my own resistance and confusion that took me so long to get it. Most people get it a lot faster than I did. I make Pristine EVERY time. When making rush orders, I make 6 pristines in 8 minutes or less.Personally I think there should be 2 quality levels: normal and pristine. This will accomplish the goal of clearing up itemization on the broker and still fall within the other goals of streamlining and educating first-time tradeskillers.

[Mikkahl]

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll agree with that - watch your timing.  The events only occur right at the start of the round (a round is 4 seconds).</blockquote>Sorry I did not respond sooner.I will try to consign myself to the "4 second timer".I am trying to jibe what you are saying with the sometimes 2 and 3 back-to-back events I get sometimes. I see no way to predict or counteract these randomly timed events. Looking forward to further feedback.</blockquote><p>The events are NEVER randomly timed - they only occur at the start of the round (tick) - usually every 4 seconds, but sometimes it stretches out much longer.  This either lag or a deliberate attempt to break "bot" software that might try to execute every 4 seconds.</p><p>Now it's random whether an event will occur at the start of the round, or which one, but never random on the time.  That's why it's MANDATORY to wait for the tick - to "consign" yourself to it.  Do not "try", young Skywalker - do! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  (Sorry, wrong game!)</p><p>They make it easy to identify the tick - the numbers roll up above the table, and one of several distinctive sounds happen at the same time: the "Happy" sound when you reach the next bar of durability, the "sad, whomp" sound when you have a critical failure, or just a simple "brah" sound (hard to describe! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) for a normal round.  When you see the numbers and hear the sound but see no event, it's safe to hit any buffs you want.  Their recast timers run 3.5 seconds, so then they will be ready to hit when the next tick occurs - if you need to respond to an event.</p>

[feldon30]

Hmm. I will definitely give the timing a shot. I had not paid attention to the numbers much. I already get pristine 99% of the time, so this help me predict the events better and get faster times on the rush orders (which I make about 80% of the time).

[feldon30]

Got the timing down pat! Thanks!!I counter about 95% of the events now, now that I know when to expect them.I still say at the beginning of tradeskilling, I almost prefer if they stay away so I can hammer Progress buffs, and then near the end, I am hoping to get MORE Events cause each one I counter will give me a boost if Durability is nosediving.Thanks again! I am writing a doc on an outsider's view of tradeskilling and this will help it immensely.

[Jehannum]

<p>I realise some of this has been said before here; I skimmed several pages so while I caught the gist, I'm bound to repeat some things.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> 1. Defining a "better" tradeskill reaction:   Any ability we receive which has a higher benefit-to-cost ratio is better.  Any ability we receive which has a substantially higher benefit, regardless of cost, is potentially better (quick finish/last-ditch recovery).  Any ability which has a substantially lower cost, regardless of benefit, is potentially better. (low-power especially)</p><p>2. Despite efforts to retain relative parity, equipment and adventuring level has too much of a skew effect on certain crafters' abilities (some adventure classes tend to have much more power at similar level).  I recommend implementation of a single, 100-point (or whatever) bar dedicated to crafting.  Give crafters a slow improvement in the number of points on that bar as they level, and tag the power reactions to that bar instead.  Give drinks the potential to add to that regeneration.  I'll leave the balancing to developers with a better sense for where that should lie.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>3. Please don't reduce the number of reactions to two per problem type.  No matter that you try to set reactions as upgrades, if you force people to use the most recent there will be blood in the streets.  Or the crafting instances, anyhow.  I wouldn't care, but I know enough to realise some people would take it pretty hard.</p>

[feldon30]

It's the Power-based reactions that are the biggest concern.I am seriously considering when I ding 40 on my tradeskills to keep my level 20 power-based Progress buff. The level 40 one uses way too much power.