Should there be x5 or x6 raids in RoK?

[Uilamin]

With fighters planning on becoming more desirable with the upcoming updates it makes me wonder if raid size should increase. Right now almost everyone knows that no one would ever raid with a 24 different class raid as some certain classes are useful to have multiple of, such as bards.  As there are only 24 raid spots, it means no raid will ever have one of each class in it, with different classes being valued more than others certain classes tend to be the ones left out.  That is why I believe SoE decided to buff fighters raid utility so that people might consider them for raid slots. The problem with their buffing is that their abilities still don't make them more useful to a raid then a pure utility class, so they will not replace one of them, they cannot heal to any capacity that a healer can, and their dps lacks behind dps classes.  Sure their buffs increase raid dps (except for paladins, however, the paladin's ability isn't good enough to buff the other healers to the point where you can loose a healer), but I doubt it is to the point where it is worth loosing a dps class. If another raid group was added, or maybe (would really be pushing it) group size increased, then with the extra spots open you could potentially fit more raid utility classes in. With a current raid you usually have the build (bare minimum): 2 tanks 6 healers 4 bards 1 summoner 8 dps classes (I would say 9, but counted the summoner as one, a 2nd summoner could be here as well) 1 Enchanter That leaves 2 spots for customization, however, usually a 2nd enchanter and either a 7th healer or 3rd tank is taken. The problem is unless a fighter can replace the dps lost by loosing a dps class they will not fill one of those spots because as the game currently is DPS is the center of a successful raid.  They aren't going to replace a bard slot because the bonuses a bard gives to a group will not be out down by a single buff and if they do something is wrong as that is what bards are supposed to be good at.  Same can be said about enchanters.  With an extra group you would get  more slots.  Most likely 1 would be a healer and another a bard.  So with the last 4 slots dropping a class in with a raid wide dps buff would probably be equal to the dps increase of putting a pure dps class in.  So it would be worth it.  However, at most you could fit 2 fighters in there and then a 3rd off-tank wouldn't be put into another group. That gives you 4 fighters in a raid.  So adding a 6th group would probably allow all 6 fighter types in a raid, in order for the raid to be effective, however, i doubt that would be needed as fighters, i do not believe, are that popular of an archtype.

[Cusashorn]

<p>I don't think the game mechanics allow for it, but even if they did, NO. 24 spots is fine. We don't need 72+ member raids from EQlive again.</p>

[Wildmage]

at most I could see them increasing raids to 30 people with 5 groups.

[Wallzak]

<p>What I think would be cool is to make a raid zone where you must have one of each class otherwise you can't succeed.</p><p>This can be done in a variety of ways, make 1 mob tankable by only a specific tank class, or purely code it so if there is more than one class in the  zone one of them gets punted out.</p><p>I'm not saying make all raid zones like this... just one.</p>

[Borias]

<p>That would be a nightmare for pvp servers where most of the guilds can't use all classes.</p><p>There is an encounter though for specific tanking already in the game.</p>

[Yask]

Its a pretty stupid idea as all the guilds that have picked a side (good/evil) and are playing the game how it is supposed to be played would not be able to complete those raids.

[Ogrebe]

I like the raid size as it is. If it is incrased what would happen is guild will all of a sudden be competing more heavily for member. A few raid guild will fall becasue of that, and in the end there will be a few less raid guilds on each server. Lowering the number is also bad as it would do what something similar to what happened in WoW. Guild would have to start cutting memeber out.

[Wildmage]

<cite>Yaskel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a pretty stupid idea as all the guilds that have picked a side (good/evil) and are playing the game how it is supposed to be played would not be able to complete those raids.</blockquote>I think your making some major presumptions there.

[ZUES]

It should at least be raised to 5. Raiding guilds stay small and with all the 70s up and coming it leaves very little options for them to join a raid guild. Last I heard Unrest had 682 guilds. This is a win win for everybody I think. But the loot rate might have to be increased on those raids to compensate. Just my thoughts...

[Lornick]

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote>It should at least be raised to 5. Raiding guilds stay small and <b>with all the 70s up and coming it leaves very little options for them to join a raid guild</b>. Last I heard Unrest had 682 guilds. This is a win win for everybody I think. But the loot rate might have to be increased on those raids to compensate. Just my thoughts...</blockquote>If there are excessive numbers of players at the level cap unable to join raid guilds then the problem will fix itself when new raid guilds are formed.  The raid size is a non-issue.  The vast majority of raid encounters are in instanced zones so it doesn't matter how many raid guilds are on a server.  I'm against the raid size being any larger.  It's hard enough for pick-up raids to form and be successful as it is.  Increasing the raid size would only compound the problem.

[Thormiel]

<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yaskel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a pretty stupid idea as all the guilds that have picked a side (good/evil) and are playing the game how it is supposed to be played would not be able to complete those raids.</blockquote>I think your making some major presumptions there. </blockquote>Which presumptions would that be?

[Besual]

I could imagine a raid size of x5 (aka 30 player) and 30 players is far enough from the 72 player raids in EQ2. Of course the min-max-raiders will fill the 5th group with 1x healer, 1x support and 4x DPS but other guilds might bring some more of the not-so-wanted classes. Edit: "One of each class" is bad. Not only on PvP servers. Your Coercer / SK / <what_ever_other_rare_raid_class> can't play tonight? Well, you bedder say off to the raid for rhis night.

[Jal]

Why would more groups allow for more tanks? x5 content would likely be tougher and have more hp and thus another DPS group with healers would be preferable to more tanks still unless the encounter specifically needs the tanks.

[Catseyes]

not more hps , but more boss at same time.  Kinda like the 3 droags in Labs, but not tankable with only one tank.  could have more multiple targets linked, with necessity to offtannk them without needing 12 healers in raid.  It's there they could make specific tactics more usefull with certain tanks other than pure ones.  for example, pally  could be more usefull against a certain boss  just taking less dmg, dealing more and having double mitig on wards. Another  Bossx2 encounter would be better offtanked by a SK with higher dmg on lifetaps and damage shields. giving weakness over classes on boss could give a chance to classes who arent needed other way. More strategic fights, less Burn strategy.  Actually it's just a dps contest between boss and raid. Burn or be burnt. the fights in EQ1 were sometimes very tricky .

[iceriven2]

I would rather see raids that need the fighter utilities then allowing another grp to raid.  One thing that makes or breaks most raids is DPS.  Like to see more strategy then simply having more dps.

[Uilamin]

Asarla@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Why would more groups allow for more tanks? x5 content would likely be tougher and have more hp and thus another DPS group with healers would be preferable to more tanks still unless the encounter specifically needs the tanks. </blockquote> Because each of the fighter classes is getting a raid-wide buff.  If you have enough DPS classes already in the raid then the buff they will give should increase raid wide DPS more than adding another DPS class.

[KBern]

<cite>Uilamin wrote:</cite><blockquote>With fighters planning on becoming more desirable with the upcoming updates it makes me wonder if raid size should increase. Right now almost everyone knows that no one would ever raid with a 24 different class raid as some certain classes are useful to have multiple of, such as bards.  As there are only 24 raid spots, it means no raid will ever have one of each class in it, with different classes being valued more than others certain classes tend to be the ones left out.  That is why I believe SoE decided to buff fighters raid utility so that people might consider them for raid slots. The problem with their buffing is that their abilities still don't make them more useful to a raid then a pure utility class, so they will not replace one of them, they cannot heal to any capacity that a healer can, and their dps lacks behind dps classes.  Sure their buffs increase raid dps (except for paladins, however, the paladin's ability isn't good enough to buff the other healers to the point where you can loose a healer), but I doubt it is to the point where it is worth loosing a dps class. If another raid group was added, or maybe (would really be pushing it) group size increased, then with the extra spots open you could potentially fit more raid utility classes in. With a current raid you usually have the build (bare minimum): 2 tanks 6 healers 4 bards 1 summoner 8 dps classes (I would say 9, but counted the summoner as one, a 2nd summoner could be here as well) 1 Enchanter That leaves 2 spots for customization, however, usually a 2nd enchanter and either a 7th healer or 3rd tank is taken. The problem is unless a fighter can replace the dps lost by loosing a dps class they will not fill one of those spots because as the game currently is DPS is the center of a successful raid.  They aren't going to replace a bard slot because the bonuses a bard gives to a group will not be out down by a single buff and if they do something is wrong as that is what bards are supposed to be good at.  Same can be said about enchanters.  With an extra group you would get  more slots.  Most likely 1 would be a healer and another a bard.  So with the last 4 slots dropping a class in with a raid wide dps buff would probably be equal to the dps increase of putting a pure dps class in.  So it would be worth it.  However, at most you could fit 2 fighters in there and then a 3rd off-tank wouldn't be put into another group. That gives you 4 fighters in a raid.  So adding a 6th group would probably allow all 6 fighter types in a raid, in order for the raid to be effective, however, i doubt that would be needed as fighters, i do not believe, are that popular of an archtype. </blockquote><p>No.</p><p>That is what I like about eq2.  The raids are manageable.  A core of 24 is fine.  It is not the number of people allowed that would open up spots for other classes, it is the need for those classes in the encounter.</p><p>SOE can invent encounters that need more off tanking or the need for more fighters.  Simply adding a x5 or x6 raid ability would only add more DPS to the raid. </p>

[Frid]

I say yes, i miss big raids and nowdays PCs can stand that

[StoneySilen]

What and copy WoW!?!  NO WAY!?! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Really, I think 24 is enough, we don't need 40 man raids or zerg armies of EQL.

[ZUES]

<p>I would like to see 5-6 group raids. It adds substantially to friendship development when guilds get larger.</p><p>My guild stays small on purpose. The biggest reason to so nobody gets their felling hurt if they cant attend the raid. So yes, I would welcome this change.</p><p>As far as pick up raids are concerned.... pfft! Get past EoF content with a 4 group pick up raid THEN come here and complain about raid sizes. See ya in a year!</p>

[Lornick]

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I would like to see 5-6 group raids. <b>It adds substantially to friendship development when guilds get larger</b>.</p><p>My guild stays small on purpose. The biggest reason to so nobody gets their felling hurt if they cant attend the raid. So yes, I would welcome this change.</p><p>As far as pick up raids are concerned.... pfft! Get past EoF content with a 4 group pick up raid THEN come here and complain about raid sizes. See ya in a year!</p></blockquote>I think the opposite holds true.  From my experience the larger a guild gets the less likely it is for each member to really get to know each other and hang out.  It usually breaks down into highschool like cliques.  Sometimes there is just outright animosity between guild members, but since guild sizes need to be larger there are less options available to players to find a guild that has convenient raid times for them so they just put the people they don't like on ignore or just don't talk to each other.  Smaller raid sizes allow for more strategy, stronger friendships, and more choices for players.  24 is the perfect number imho, leave it that way.

[Uilamin]

Nitelen@The Bazaar wrote: <blockquote>What and copy WoW!?!  NO WAY!?! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Really, I think 24 is enough, we don't need 40 man raids or zerg armies of EQL. </blockquote> Actual WoW raids are now 10 and 25 person raids I think, they changed to a EQ-2 style raid...

[ke'la]

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I would like to see 5-6 group raids. It adds substantially to friendship development when guilds get larger.</p><p>My guild stays small on purpose. The biggest reason to so nobody gets their felling hurt if they cant attend the raid. So yes, I would welcome this change.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">As far as pick up raids are concerned.... pfft! Get past EoF content with a 4 group pick up raid THEN come here and complain about raid sizes. See ya in a year!</span></p></blockquote><p> I love the arragance here. You know there are a large number of players... quickly aproching a Majority. That can't play on a "Raid Guild" schedule so they join smaller guilds, form alliances, and join pick-up raids to experiance the content...Yeah they may not be the majority of Raiders but they have just as much right to the content as an Uber raid guild. </p><p>Also, like others have said right now to field a 24 man raid regularly you either have to have about 35 regular players, you need that many so you can have a reserve pool to pull from in order to make shure you have the manpower to raid. Either that or manditory raid Attendance(wich leaves out the casual Raider), increasing that raid number to even 30 means now in order to regularly Raid(without manditory attendance) means you know need atleast 40 players... you have now reach a number of guild members that even THE BEST leaders in the WORLD can not lead. The truth of the matter is as you get past about 15 people below a leader the group starts to become unleadable, and the increase in difficulty leading a group of more then 15 or so people gets exponetially harder. That is why Armies are devided into Squads, then Units, then Devsitions and so forth, its so that no one person has more then 15 or so people under thier direct command. However, in MMOs guilds  and especally Raids are rarly orginised like this instead they have 1 leader incharge of all members.</p>

[Araxes]

No.  Only for the reason that it would be infeasible to put together that many people in a game where the population is not dense enough to support large-scale raiding. A secondary reason would be one of performance.  Not everyone can afford a $5500 gaming rig.  And not everyone knows how to build something comparable. A third reason, which could be remedied, is the lack of an efficient tool to set up raids.  Unless people start using the new LFG / LFM tool for the purposes of putting raids together (and I think they should.)

[KBern]

<cite>Lornick wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I would like to see 5-6 group raids. <b>It adds substantially to friendship development when guilds get larger</b>.</p><p>My guild stays small on purpose. The biggest reason to so nobody gets their felling hurt if they cant attend the raid. So yes, I would welcome this change.</p><p>As far as pick up raids are concerned.... pfft! Get past EoF content with a 4 group pick up raid THEN come here and complain about raid sizes. See ya in a year!</p></blockquote>I think the opposite holds true.  From my experience the larger a guild gets the less likely it is for each member to really get to know each other and hang out.  It usually breaks down into highschool like cliques.  Sometimes there is just outright animosity between guild members, but since guild sizes need to be larger there are less options available to players to find a guild that has convenient raid times for them so they just put the people they don't like on ignore or just don't talk to each other.  Smaller raid sizes allow for more strategy, stronger friendships, and more choices for players.  24 is the perfect number imho, leave it that way. </blockquote>Exactly.  I will take quality over quantity any day.