I die alot

[DevlaZ]

I was told to "prepare to die alot" when I started my newbie Coercer, but I had no idea how much "alot" was. Currently I'm level 11, and I die ALOT. I can't take on a mob of the same level without a charmed pet Charmed pets seem to always break in combat, and never ever last the full 8 minutes, regardless if the pet is +/- 2 levels of you.  Also if the pet is 1 level below the mob you are attacking, it gets OWNED. Damage Spells and dots are pretty weak Immunity timers on Root/Stun/Daze effects on all our "mez" spells are a bit ridiculous Heroic Opportunity only applies for 3 spells I have so far.  Kind of limits the use of HO.  I'm sure you get more damage spells as you level, but compared to other classes I've played, this is a bit of a pain. I'm really trying to enjoy this class, but haven't had a great experience so far.  Should I stick with it?

[Mistletoes]

Stick with it if you like it. I like it. I still die a lot at level 70, but only when trying to figure things out, or trying things that are just plain challenging. Just yesterday, I died 4 times in an hour soloing in castle mistmoore. Doh! Resisted again.

[Rarlin]

<cite>DevlaZ wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was told to "prepare to die alot" when I started my newbie Coercer, but I had no idea how much "alot" was. Currently I'm level 11, and I die ALOT. I can't take on a mob of the same level without a charmed pet Charmed pets seem to always break in combat, and never ever last the full 8 minutes, regardless if the pet is +/- 2 levels of you.  Also if the pet is 1 level below the mob you are attacking, it gets OWNED. Damage Spells and dots are pretty weak Immunity timers on Root/Stun/Daze effects on all our "mez" spells are a bit ridiculous Heroic Opportunity only applies for 3 spells I have so far.  Kind of limits the use of HO.  I'm sure you get more damage spells as you level, but compared to other classes I've played, this is a bit of a pain. I'm really trying to enjoy this class, but haven't had a great experience so far.  Should I stick with it? </blockquote><p> Honestly (and please don't take this the wrong way), but judging from your post you may want to try another class. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> You will forever die a lot as a Coercer (I don't care if it's raiding or grouping or soloing).  There are plenty of other utility classes that don't die near as much; but also remember that we are the extreme side of "risk vs. reward".  The class is probably one of the most difficult, but can also be one of the most rewarding.</p><p> When I started my Coercer I loved it from the start, if I don't love a class by level 20-30 I go to another one.  But that's just me personally. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I hated illusionist but love Coercer, it's a preference.  So play what you enjoy... don't just play a class based on aother person. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

In the beginning you will die a lot because your skills are still low, your crowd control isn't as long and won't land as easily or as often on the first try, and you don't even have all your DPS spells yet as you get a ton of your utility stuff first. Later, you will die a lot trying to take on things solo that you probably shouldn't be able to... but because you are a Coercer, there's a chance that you CAN. Every tier you will find yourself more and more capable of taking on the same equivalent content that you had before... and you'll start taking on harder content because you are so used to dealing with things "the hard way". Also.. hitting the teens and soloing you REALLY need to invest in upgrading gear. If this is an alt, get your higher level character to harvest/create/buy a full suit of tier 2 armor and jewelry. Everyone has to think like a tank when they start soloing... even if you never "intend" to get hit. A full suit of handcrafted tier 2 armor will blow the mix-matched tier 1 armor out of the water... better yet, get a couple mastercrafted. Oh.. and make sure to get your app4s at least. Major part of a caster class really. I've been playing a bunch of new alts lately, and the one thing that seems to be the same regardless of class, is that when you hit level 10, you NEED to gear up.. or it's gonna be painful.

[Merowing]

hiya, crying a river at lvl 11 that takes 2h playtime is the wrong way.. the corcer is one of the best classes for not to die at endgame content. why? the only word that can be placed here is crowd control. its no problem later kill encounter with 5 enemys and so one. coercer isnt that easy to play but when u can play it.. its one of the interessting classes ever. greetz gothix

[Fasci]

/echoes Rarlin It's a challenging class, to be sure.  But if you don't love it by level 20 or so, you might be better served to look elsewhere. If you continue: <ul><li>be sure your spells are all updated, at LEAST to apIV. </li><li>If you can afford it, try to find a master charm.</li><li>gear up!</li><li>use those EoF AA's to start. 5 points in Charm really helps.</li><li>level up your Skills. Pay attention to your skillsets in subjugation, disruption, ordination, etc.</li></ul>Hope that helps! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Melodar]

Another tip for you is there is a Blue shield buff you get that buffs mind resistance. Do NOT use this if you have a pet all your doing is helping him break charm. Clerics get a similar spell and Illusionists so ask them to turn it off if your gonna pet. Coercers really aren't a class for soloing mobs without a pet, sure it can be done but why? If you want to solo without a pet make a wizzy. Good pets to charm are priest type pets as they can run in melee and heal themselves. Very few mobs taunt so use your demeanor spells on pet once you get them. Now just take time and charm pet. When charm breaks mezz the pet then try to recharm. If mezz misses stun then mezz then charm. Do not try charm as soon as he break as you will get interrupted and die. At low levels try to get the highest charm you can Adept 1 min.  Once you get Coerce and on up get master level and it is worth the money you spend. Master will blow away adept 3 too.  Good luck and hang in there coercer is a fun class, at 70 you can add 68 dps to teammates at ad3 with impetus you can regen mana at 53 per tic with master II ease. You can charm pets that can rival an assassin in the group for dps. I'll give you one thing my guild says about grouping with my Coercer. God I love grouping with you. You make stuff so easy. Tank/Healer aside I think we make the biggest change to group dynamics when we join a group. And don't fret about Warlocks and Sk's in group with you sure they might break mezz but you also want their dps so continue to mezz mobs and practice your craft. Its no big deal if they break your mezz but you need to learn your crowd control so ignore the gripes about mezz and tell them to nuke away except on huge pulls unless that group can handle aoeing that pull. How you mezz is dependant on the skills and power of groups your in and this varies EVERY group so you must be able to adjust your style to fit your current group. Oh and since your getting aa's use 6 pts and get charm to level 5. Good luck and stick with it.

[Lord Montague]

Urganabee@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Another tip for you is there is a Blue shield buff you get that buffs mind resistance. Do NOT use this if you have a pet all your doing is helping him break charm....</blockquote> That was actually fixed a few updates ago so that having mental buffs on a charm pet should not increase the chances of it breaking (at least for coercers - necromancers and charm undead are another matter).  I've personally never dropped any buffs while having a charm pet up and it's had no impact on charm breaking.

[Nuhus]

It's rough, not as bad as '04.. but still rough. Once you get your reactives it gets better. It takes a bit to get used to. I think I had around 300 deaths around level 30 back in the day.

[Lleinen]

mwa haha, #1 in deaths WW for coercers right here, think im around 7100

[Malbidion]

<p>I would just like to add to try and stick with it until lvl 24 at least. The class is very frustrating until about 23 or so when you get Sybillant. At 24 you can make Sybillant Master 2 and that really ups your killing speed. At 25 you get Smirking Demeanor and from then on your charms hold aggro alot better. I'm at 26 now(new to the game) with an Adept 3 Coerce and for the most part my charms are quite reliable and can usually hold aggro the entire fight.</p><p> At any rate, I was about to shelve my Coercer several times. Sybillant has since changed my mind. The class has become rather fun now.</p>

[tracheaspider]

<p>If you're starting out in Darklight, there are some major issues there with mobs (vampires and wisps especially) having ridiculously high magical resists.  There are also some mobs that are a lot stronger than they look (like the snake on the bridge) and will squish just about anyone.  Most zones are more sane, so if this is the case, maybe try going elsewhere to get leveled up.</p><p>Don't count on your pet to hold aggro.  Even with a hate buff on, it's not going to for very long.  The purpose of the pet is either to give the rooted mob a target to hit to proc your reactives (which you'll get later) or to add to DPS.  If you're fighting a mob with large melee attacks, for instance, charm a caster type mob and keep it nuking from range.</p><p>Count on your pets dying.  Use this to split up groups of multiple mobs by charming one and letting its friend kill it and then finishing off the friend.  You can also use a disposable pet as temporary crowd control by sticking it on an add and letting them duke it out while you take care of whatever you were working on before.</p><p>Not sure why you're complaining about the immunity timers on control effects.  The only mobs affected by the timers are true epics.  Heroics and lower are either outright immune to a particular effect, regardless of which class is casting it, or they have no restrictions.  And very few mobs are immune to all control effects, so you can at least keep them rooted or mezzed even if they're immune to stuns/stifles/dazes.</p><p>Mezzing is a tool for solo, duo and small groups and should always be kept to a minimum when grouping.  Do NOT ignore people getting ticked at you for mezzing if there's no need for you to do it. It just slows things down outside of emergencies.  Screw practice, you can practice plenty by soloing in dangerous areas.  Get good at minimizing damage your group takes by stunning instead.</p>

[Malbidion]

<cite>tracheaspider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1.Don't count on your pet to hold aggro.  Even with a hate buff on, it's not going to for very long.  The purpose of the pet is either to give the rooted mob a target to hit to proc your reactives (which you'll get later) or to add to DPS.  If you're fighting a mob with large melee attacks, for instance, charm a caster type mob and keep it nuking from range.</p><p>2.Count on your pets dying.  Use this to split up groups of multiple mobs by charming one and letting its friend kill it and then finishing off the friend.  You can also use a disposable pet as temporary crowd control by sticking it on an add and letting them duke it out while you take care of whatever you were working on before.</p></blockquote><p> 1. This may change later on, I'm not sure. Like I said, I'm new to the game. Currently though, this is a viable tactic. I let the pet get a couple swipes and then lay on 3 DoTs and a Sybillant. Mob usually dies before coming after me, and shortly after if it does come my way. I use the Root nuke on heroics, but I don't really grind those. Not very time efficient from my experience thus far.</p><p>2. Actually I try to kill my pets - almost. I'll get 3-5 pulls off most pets. When my pet gets under a bubble of health left, I lay it on thick on my current target. Kill it. Then immediately break charm and kill him as well. Charm a new pet. Rinse and repeat. Charming a 1 or 2 up arrow critter and killing it after it has been whittled down is fun too.</p><p>I know I sound newb, and I am. But I'm having fun figuring out all the nuances of the game and this class. I do wish the charms were like EQ 1 though. The mob becoming normal once you charm it and then "magically" becoming heroic again when it breaks charm is silly. The risk vs. reward is pretty bad.</p>

[Controlor]

<cite>tracheaspider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Don't count on your pet to hold aggro.  Even with a hate buff on, it's not going to for very long.  The purpose of the pet is either to give the rooted mob a target to hit to proc your reactives (which you'll get later) or to add to DPS.  If you're fighting a mob with large melee attacks, for instance, charm a caster type mob and keep it nuking from range.</p></blockquote>Actually after the update your pet may be able to hold agro a lot better. The transfer hate would increase hate gain from pet as well as transfer over hate from the coercer. The transfer reduces hate towards coercer as well as beefs up hate on pet. This will allow the coercer to do a bit more dmg on the mob if/befor it goes after the coercer.

[tracheaspider]

<cite>Malbidion wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. This may change later on, I'm not sure. Like I said, I'm new to the game. Currently though, this is a viable tactic. I let the pet get a couple swipes and then lay on 3 DoTs and a Sybillant. Mob usually dies before coming after me, and shortly after if it does come my way. I use the Root nuke on heroics, but I don't really grind those. Not very time efficient from my experience thus far. (snip)</blockquote> The more damage/control spells you're able to lay on the mob yourself, the faster your pet will lose aggro.  Aside from a very few particular mobs charmed at Master I, even puny coercer nukes will peel aggro off anything.  Worse, stuns and stifles and power drains <i>really</i> tick off the mobs.  Also, on rooted mobs, it might look like the pet is holding aggro simply because the pet is closer.  If the mob comes for you the second root breaks, the pet didn't really have aggro.  All the hate buff does (currently) is increase the hate the pet generates by a tiny amount.  Compared to what a coercer does, the pet is doing nothing. <p>Controlor wrote: </p><blockquote>Actually after the update your pet may be able to hold agro a lot better. The transfer hate would increase hate gain from pet as well as transfer over hate from the coercer. The transfer reduces hate towards coercer as well as beefs up hate on pet. This will allow the coercer to do a bit more dmg on the mob if/befor it goes after the coercer. </blockquote><p>I seriously doubt pets will be holding aggro any better.  Since pet aggro is so crappy to start with, giving it a maximum of 17% of your hate won't do much since the mob will still blame 83% (or more) on you.</p><p>Best tactic overall is to assume you have aggro at all times and not let the mobs get near you.  You can get things dead pretty fast and efficiently by jousting your pet in and out.  Send it in to trigger reactives and then pull it out to refresh root and/or stuns.  Or just use a caster type and keep it ranged.  Even at A3, if you can get a wizard or an enchanter type, they can put out some nice DPS.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

If you are GIVING 17% of your hate, you are simultaneously LOSING 17% of your hate and the pet is GAINING 17%. This means there's a 34% hate difference being made. The pet only has to make up for the 66% remaining hate you are making to keep aggro with his own abilities, which are also increased in hate by 17%. Now this still doesn't mean that it'll keep aggro, it will really depend on the pet's damage capabilities. But the numbers are a bit more in our favour than previously mentioned.

[S_M_I_T_E]

<p>technical error</p>

[S_M_I_T_E]

<cite>Mistletoes wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stick with it if you like it. I like it. I still die a lot at level 70, but only when trying to figure things out, or trying things that are just plain challenging. Just yesterday, I died 4 times in an hour soloing in castle mistmoore. Doh! Resisted again.</blockquote> <p>Do you mean you were "progressively clearing" Mistmoore castle solo or just "exploring?" I'm kinda new to this who charm thing and although I've seen the uberness of charming Heroics I didn't think any class could make any progress solo in MMC at lvl 70 alone.  If I'm reading this right I'm rerollin.  Am I reading what your saying correctly?</p>

[tracheaspider]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>If you are GIVING 17% of your hate, you are simultaneously LOSING 17% of your hate and the pet is GAINING 17%. This means there's a 34% hate difference being made. The pet only has to make up for the 66% remaining hate you are making to keep aggro with his own abilities, which are also increased in hate by 17%. (snip)</blockquote> Okay, my math might not be perfect, but I really don't think this is how hate is calcuated with transfers.  If it were, then the assassin and swashie transfers would be a 58% and 54% "hate difference" respectively at M1.  This would imply it's impossible for the scout in question to peel aggro even if the tank is just standing there twiddling his thumbs. 

[Blumfield]

CMM main floor is absolutely farmable solo (i.e. the vanquisher and pianist).. challenging, but quite doable.  The mobs in the basement are also all killable solo, but the short respawn time and lack of safe spots makes farming there pretty much impossible

[Controlor]

<p><b>*tracheaspider* </b>Kinda. Both are corect. Just a bit confused. Looking only at the hate transfer. </p><p>There is 17% hate transfer. Meaning you are generating 83% of your total possible hate. While the pet is generating 100% of their total possible hate + 17% of your total possible hate. </p><ul><li><b>So lets say you generate on averate 1000 hate/sec. Your pet generates only 600 hate/sec.</b> This would show that you loose hate to your pet normally.</li><li>So with 17% transfer you would generate onlu 830 hate/sec. While your charmed pet generates 770 hate/second. You will still loose agro with this yes. However it will take a bit longer to loose agro than usual. </li><li><b>Now adding in the 17% hate increaser. Your pets hate becomes 117% of its max haste + 17% of your max haste</b>. </li><li>Using the 1000 600 still. We get your pet generating 872 hate/sec while your generating only 830 hate/sec. Your pet should be able to hold agro from you. If it doesnt (the numbers arnt acurate its an example) it will at least hold it LONGER than it normally would against a mob. </li><li><b>Now compare this with what it is now at 49% hate increaser.</b> </li><li>So it would be generating 149% of its total hate you still generate 100% of yours. So it would only generate 894 hate/sec while you still generate 1000 hate/sec. This means you STILL would pull agro. With the hate transfer any bit of transfer you can do WILL aid your pet in holding agro. </li></ul>Again these arnt exact numbers as we cant show exact hate/sec of players or charmed mobs. But my point still is valid.<p><b>*S_M_I_T_E</b> * The person is talking about progressivly soloing the heroics in CMM. As a enchanter its possible. He was able to solo the pianist and the guy who spawns on the pedistal. There are enough pull spots on that floor to not really worry to much about agro. I as a illy have soloed that area befor. IT IS NOT EASY TO DO. That i must say (they are HEAVILY magic resistant). But it can be done. Just got to know what your doing.</p><p>*Edited it so its a bit more readable sorry bout that* </p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>tracheaspider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay, my math might not be perfect, but I really don't think this is how hate is calcuated with transfers.  If it were, then the assassin and swashie transfers would be a 58% and 54% "hate difference" respectively at M1.  This would imply it's impossible for the scout in question to peel aggro even if the tank is just standing there twiddling his thumbs. </blockquote> Uh, the tank would still have to do something. It's only 58/54%, not 100%. The tank still has to make up for that missing 42-46% of the assassin/swash's hate that ISN'T covered by the transfer. I know Controler answered this, but just another example from the scouts side. Say a scout is transferring 27% of his hate. He does 2k DPS. That's 540 hate being taken from his aggro, and put towards the tank. So now it's 540 vs 1460. Which means the tank needs to do at least 920 hate to keep aggro. So 540 hate is 27% of 2k. Since it's +540 to the tank and -540 to the scout, which totals 1080 hate overall difference. 1080 of 2k is 54%. 2k minus 1080 leaves 920, which is 46%. It's all balancing fine here, so not sure where you think the math is wrong. Since it's only 17% (at master 1, a hard one to find as I recall.. we need an upgrade), that still leaves a lot of aggro for our pets to try and handle. Like I said, some high DPS ones can handle that... but the majority out there (especially when leveling) probably can't. But it is in the 1/3rd category at least.

[Trunkman]

<p>yeh, they were right to warn you... but you didnt listen did you? lol you just had to roll a coercer.. and THAT is what being a coercer is all about. it's pretty much all been covered in this thread but i just wanted to encourage you to keep at it and just put up with it. if it wasnt a challenge, would you REALLY want to do it and keep doing it for 70 (and soon to be 80) levels? i sure as hell wouldnt!</p><p>there's a reason they call us paper tanks. the best bit of advice i can give you is to learn how to most effectively keep the mobs off you. if you work that bit out - have a look around these pages and things like eq2i.com etc there is a lot of good advice on how to be an effective and productive coercer, and you know which risks are worth taking and which arent, then you will enjoy the class. </p><p>the best thing about a coercer for me is i'm a multi-tasker.. i dont just dps, i dont just block, i dont just heal.. i buff, i attack, i control, i debuff.. and really, if you're good at what you do people will notice it when you're not there and you will find more and more invites to groups (remember also to explain to them your abilities and how they work because coercer is a very unknown class to most)</p><p>good luck with it!</p>

[Rarlin]

<cite>Trunkman wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>(remember also to explain to them your abilities and how they work because coercer is a very unknown class to most)</p></blockquote><p> Yeah,</p><p>I still remember being in a PuG and someone saying, "WOW, you can mezz?" <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Sad part was it was a bunch of 70s...</p>

[Triple Black]

<p>Wow, brings back memories.</p><p> I took some time off and just recently re-subbed to EQ II and I have a level 38 Coercer. In the past 4 days I think I have died 10 or 12 times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Been a blast.</p><p> It has taken me that amount of time to remember how to play the class. I am lucky in that I have a Master Charm spell so I can grab the badest Casting mob I can find to assist me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> The one thing I had to absolutely relearn was the mezzing for me.</p><p> Just hang in there, you'll be in a group and save their [Removed for Content] and you'll be forever loved.</p>

[Cyris]

I can kill groups of 4+ mobs no problem... as long as they don't attack me first. Most single and double pulls I can deal with, even if they agro me.... What kills me are the named mobs that kill me in 2 or 3 hits and resist my spells. Of course I blame this on wearing gear about 15 levels below me. Yeah... what a fun class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mistletoes]

<cite>S_M_I_T_E wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mistletoes wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stick with it if you like it. I like it. I still die a lot at level 70, but only when trying to figure things out, or trying things that are just plain challenging. Just yesterday, I died 4 times in an hour soloing in castle mistmoore. Doh! Resisted again.</blockquote> <p>Do you mean you were "progressively clearing" Mistmoore castle solo or just "exploring?" I'm kinda new to this who charm thing and although I've seen the uberness of charming Heroics I didn't think any class could make any progress solo in MMC at lvl 70 alone.  If I'm reading this right I'm rerollin.  Am I reading what your saying correctly?</p></blockquote><p> Most people have clarified what I meant for me, but I'll put it another way. On a few occasions, I have been bored while waiting on a CMM group for SoD updates. So, I figure, why not? The worst thing that will happen is that I'll die a horrible death 10 times and I'll have to go pay another 30g for repairs. 30g isn't so much. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I can solo the main floor from the front entrance. A few untimely resists and I'm toast. I lost most of my lives after I died in the hallway before the epic, and ended up respawning at the mmc stairs. It's tougher to get anywhere from there. It seems like those mobs resist me more than the ones up front, and a few of them are grouped, but very far apart, which means if I don't body pull and take a few lumps up front, I get multiple encounters on me, which I cannot handle from those guys. The best I can do there is try to pacify one group with Daydream while I pull the others closer without letting them kill me. I mostly die in there when Daydream is resisted, which happens a lot with groups of 3 - 5 level 72/73+ ^^ and ^^^ mobs. It seems like I can't get further than about 5 encounters in before I get put back on the stairs.</p><p>So, no. I can't run through that zone at my leisure. But I don't know anyone else that can either. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>