Why Our Products are Junk

[Liyle]

[I'm posting this thread in response to the TS Wishlist so that it wouldn't get clogged up with responses.] The reason the stuff we make is bupkis is because it's so easy to make. Once the activity of crafting was reduced to nothing but a single combine, it had to be balanced into the game. Now the only thing that can be tallied into the TS column for Effort is harvest time, fuel cost and level time. If you set this beside equivalent adventuring Effort and size the reward in that respect.... there ya go! GIGO (garbage in, garbage out.) Even before the Great Tradeskill Nerf, adventurers complained about "rich crafters" who didn't have to do anything but go down into the Mysterious Dungeon, do whatever it was we do, and then presto! instant uber-gear/boodles of plat. It wasn't fair to us, but at least you had something you could use by way of explanation to back you up.... plus the fact that whenever any of "them" tried TS'ing they usually backed down and forked over the coin. Given the difficulty of the current system I can't really justify any meaningful level of quality for anything I make outside of Mastercrafted, and then only based on the time and effort spent to acquire the Advanced book and the rare (they used to be a *lot* more rare, BTW.) It isn't anywhere near the effort I have put into doing a quest line like the Claymore or the Prismatics. I can solo the entire crafting process... grab a few raws, push buttons for a few seconds and out it comes. I can whip out a writ in less than 6 minutes. Why should I get a product that comes anywhere close to Legendary when I haven't really done anything to deserve it? I hate the fact that Mastercrafted is about equal in quality to the average Treasured drop, and it probably should be elevated slightly, but the effort just isn't there to justify making them much better than they are. People mistakenly think we want crafting to be harder just because we're some kind of elitist masochists, but in fact we want to be able to have the option of working really hard and getting something really worthwhile back. There's an old saying: "You can have Good, Cheap or Fast but you only get to pick two."

[Jai1]

<p>Initially, I was against the crafting change to single combines.  I felt that anything that earns money should be equated to work and not really be all that fun.  I also dominated the jewelry market and rarely saw competition.   Since, I have changed my mind.  I can now have just about every crafter in my crew and, albiet easy, I feel that I make some quality items.  I basically double rare prices on things so prices depend but they still sell and I make a profit just by leveling my crafters.  I think the fun factor of crafting fades after the 1st 300 or so levels but I still enjoy making mastercrafted and selling the stuff.  It's really not a quick fix type thing and having only one crafter may make the whole thing frustrating. I see the market as hot and cold but I bet I could sell both my stores out in a day by underpricing and taking a loss.  I don't sell as much armor as jewelry but when I accidently sell a T7 mastercrafted piece for say, 15g, the item sells before I can catch it.  Like hours.</p>

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

Im pretty sure the OP is responding directly to the post I made, so let me say this ... Yes, I feel that crafted wares should be scaled to better than looted wares for the simple fact that there is no point of having a TS system if the items crafted are non-necessity and hardly wanted.  HOWEVER ... I also think that your points are valid.  I can see how current items are not really worthy of being "better" than current loot, but I would like to see new recipies incerted into the game along the lines of quests.  If you go visit <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=372303" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=372303</a>, you will see what my idea of tradeskill quests I feel would be worthy of crafted items comparable to or better than looted items.  Just give it a go look-see and see what you think.

[leiela]

<p>I think the items we have are fairly well scaled ... bearing in mind its not just the time to click the button but the time to harvest the raw that gos into factoring our value. If we buy the raws / rares then the "profit" we earn is reasonable for the 2 minutes work we really do. </p><p>However i would "LOVE" to see some amazing crafted items... scale up the difficulty to make them ( can be done in numerous ways ) and scale up the quality of the end product. </p><p>If an adventure is gonig to spend 8 hours on a quest line to get a nice braclet .. id like to see a crafted comparible braclet that also took around 8 hours to make... collecting various ingredients / traveling to far off forges / multiple combines ... whatever.  </p>

[Vonotar]

<cite>leiela wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think the items we have are fairly well scaled ... bearing in mind its not just the time to click the button but the time to harvest the raw that gos into factoring our value. If we buy the raws / rares then the "profit" we earn is reasonable for the 2 minutes work we really do. </p></blockquote>I also think that crafted (in particular Mastercrafted) is currently scaled just right.  However there are two points that maybe require addressing. <b>1. Not all types of class are currently served well by Mastercrafted gear.</b> My mages have no problem at all, Mastercrafted Cloth stats are perfect for what they need, however I have noticed a lack of decent Wisdom items for chain/plate particularly at the lower levels.  It appears that these items are more geared to fighters and often have Str, Sta, Agi etc. <i><b>Solution:</b></i> Add additional sets of gear (or extend current ones that are incomplete at low levels) and add the type of stats that would be required by classes currently not being serviced.  Graphics can be a copy of the same chain/plate items used by fighters (until new Skeletons etc allow more variation to be added later), stats would also be the same, just change the labels (i.e. if making a chain priest item change Str to Wis etc). <b>2. Mastercrafted can NEVER compete with 'End-Game' raiding gear.</b> The highest Mastercrafted gear we can create is level 62, so naturally this won't compare with level 67+ loot or level 70 'uber' raid gear.  I'm sure that 'level 72 Mastercrafted' (if it could be created) would stand up much better against this top level drop loot.  <i><b>Solutions:</b></i> Maybe this is just the way it should be, and we should accept that as you reach around 65 (or 75 with RoK) you should start working on raid/instance loot drops and not crafting.  The only real solution would be to create a 'mid-tier' of level x7 items (67, 57, 47 etc).  This would increase the options for people who don't want to upgrade at the start of every tier (they could upgrade every 15 levels rather than choosing between every 10 or every 20).  However would be best left until the skeleton changes, otherwise we'll just have yet another set of identical looking gear (just with slightly better stats). Alternatively, what about an mid-tier upgrade system, whereby you can upgrade your item with a few imbue materials and raws.  The enhanced item would have stats somewhere between the x1 below and x1 above (i.e. a level 27 item would be half-way between a level 22 and level 32 item).

[Troubor]

Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><cite>leiela wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think the items we have are fairly well scaled ... bearing in mind its not just the time to click the button but the time to harvest the raw that gos into factoring our value. If we buy the raws / rares then the "profit" we earn is reasonable for the 2 minutes work we really do. </p></blockquote>I also think that crafted (in particular Mastercrafted) is currently scaled just right.  However there are two points that maybe require addressing. <b>1. Not all types of class are currently served well by Mastercrafted gear.</b> My mages have no problem at all, Mastercrafted Cloth stats are perfect for what they need, however I have noticed a lack of decent Wisdom items for chain/plate particularly at the lower levels.  It appears that these items are more geared to fighters and often have Str, Sta, Agi etc. <i><b>Solution:</b></i> Add additional sets of gear (or extend current ones that are incomplete at low levels) and add the type of stats that would be required by classes currently not being serviced.  Graphics can be a copy of the same chain/plate items used by fighters (until new Skeletons etc allow more variation to be added later), stats would also be the same, just change the labels (i.e. if making a chain priest item change Str to Wis etc). <b>2. Mastercrafted can NEVER compete with 'End-Game' raiding gear.</b> The highest Mastercrafted gear we can create is level 62, so naturally this won't compare with level 67+ loot or level 70 'uber' raid gear.  I'm sure that 'level 72 Mastercrafted' (if it could be created) would stand up much better against this top level drop loot.  <i><b>Solutions:</b></i> Maybe this is just the way it should be, and we should accept that as you reach around 65 (or 75 with RoK) you should start working on raid/instance loot drops and not crafting.  The only real solution would be to create a 'mid-tier' of level x7 items (67, 57, 47 etc).  This would increase the options for people who don't want to upgrade at the start of every tier (they could upgrade every 15 levels rather than choosing between every 10 or every 20).  However would be best left until the skeleton changes, otherwise we'll just have yet another set of identical looking gear (just with slightly better stats). Alternatively, what about an mid-tier upgrade system, whereby you can upgrade your item with a few imbue materials and raws.  The enhanced item would have stats somewhere between the x1 below and x1 above (i.e. a level 27 item would be half-way between a level 22 and level 32 item). </blockquote><p> More random comments, only reason I'm quoting at all is the "Mid-tier" comment got me to think of something.</p><p>Anyway, there is already a "teir 4.5" of sorts, in a limited way.  The armor that can only be crafted in DFC is wearable around level 37th, and without looking at the stats, is roughly wedged between feysteel and ebon.  (there's leather and cloth versions of it also, just can never remember what those are called).  So, having from tier 3 or even 2 on up a "half-tier" set, where one has to craft it in a decent instance might not be a bad idea.  For those with no desire to craft, it still would be an instance to loot.  Adventurers who craft can stay behind at the end of the instance and craft, pure crafters can ask for a friend to let them in the instance when it's cleared.  As long as it didn't make too much work, and the items did justify the effort, I'd be for this.  This would give a second Mastercrafted at mid level, one that's a bit harder to get to for all but a pure crafter, and even they can only get to it if someone clears it for them, they just can't walk into the instance alone and make something without being mauled.</p><p>As an aside, I'm proposing this for all crafters, not just ones that make some form of armor.  The mid tier weapons could be the more unique looking designs and/or include ones removed with LU24..make the mid tier both a bit better stats and the slightly more unique ones.  (although I'd still go with this idea if the mid tier ones were the same weapons, just a bit better).</p><p>Do agree this is something after the skeleton changes or at least post Kunark..let them get Kunark out first and running if nothing else.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>One other idea...I never understood the logic of why it went from level n0 to wear rare crafted to level n2 for most items.  If anyone can explain their reasoning, I'd love to hear it.  With that, I do also suggest that Mastercrafted go back to level n0, and if this mid-tier idea is ever done, it go to level n5.  Keep the level n0 stats the same, with n5 being a bit better.  (with this, the DFC player made items would go to 35th to wear, as an example).</p>

[Deson]

Their itemization scheme and gear level checks are a huge part of it.  When they switched over to a more consistent, point style system,  every level afforded more points than the previous so x2 was a good way to ensure you could get the gear early like before,allow for a good lifespan of equipment while still allowing for drops later in the tier and still keep the gear with decent stats for a tier( part of why DFC gear is firmly wedged between the two tiers in quality).  Gear level checks is a system I still don't fully get and Jalathan who did a good bit of arguing for the pally hat change can probably explain it better. Essentially though, 1000 mit on a level 70 piece of gear > 1000 mit on a level 60 piece of gear. At least that's how it used to work(haven't seen anything to say it went away).

[Vonotar]

<cite>Troubor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyway, there is already a "teir 4.5" of sorts, in a limited way.  The armor that can only be crafted in DFC is wearable around level 37th, and without looking at the stats, is roughly wedged between feysteel and ebon.  (there's leather and cloth versions of it also, just can never remember what those are called).  So, having from tier 3 or even 2 on up a "half-tier" set, where one has to craft it in a decent instance might not be a bad idea.  For those with no desire to craft, it still would be an instance to loot.  Adventurers who craft can stay behind at the end of the instance and craft, pure crafters can ask for a friend to let them in the instance when it's cleared.  As long as it didn't make too much work, and the items did justify the effort, I'd be for this.  This would give a second Mastercrafted at mid level, one that's a bit harder to get to for all but a pure crafter, and even they can only get to it if someone clears it for them, they just can't walk into the instance alone and make something without being mauled. </blockquote>So we're left with the question of what zones should be revamped to include special x7 (Mid-Tier) items crafted via DFC/Blood Ore method. 2.5 - Bloodskull Valley? 3.5 - Nek Castle? 4.5 - DFC 5.5 - Permafrost? (not too familiar with actual 'instances' at this level) 6.5 - ?? 7.5 - ??

[Troubor]

Vonotar@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><cite>Troubor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyway, there is already a "teir 4.5" of sorts, in a limited way.  The armor that can only be crafted in DFC is wearable around level 37th, and without looking at the stats, is roughly wedged between feysteel and ebon.  (there's leather and cloth versions of it also, just can never remember what those are called).  So, having from tier 3 or even 2 on up a "half-tier" set, where one has to craft it in a decent instance might not be a bad idea.  For those with no desire to craft, it still would be an instance to loot.  Adventurers who craft can stay behind at the end of the instance and craft, pure crafters can ask for a friend to let them in the instance when it's cleared.  As long as it didn't make too much work, and the items did justify the effort, I'd be for this.  This would give a second Mastercrafted at mid level, one that's a bit harder to get to for all but a pure crafter, and even they can only get to it if someone clears it for them, they just can't walk into the instance alone and make something without being mauled. </blockquote>So we're left with the question of what zones should be revamped to include special x7 (Mid-Tier) items crafted via DFC/Blood Ore method. 2.5 - Bloodskull Valley? 3.5 - Nek Castle? 4.5 - DFC 5.5 - Permafrost? (not too familiar with actual 'instances' at this level) 6.5 - ?? 7.5 - ?? </blockquote><p> I'm half inclined to suggest that new instances be made for the crafting ones.  But if we were to use existing locations, I'd suggest the following:</p><p>2.5:  Either a)  Special instance within Stormhold and/or Fallen Gate (smithy or craftsman shop in either, both would logically have one), or new version of Bloodskull that has a smithy and other work stations.</p><p>3.5:  Nek Castle, maybe a special instance in Ruins of Varsoon, or perhaps a second instance in Crushbone keep.  This one I'm possibly the least sure about.</p><p>4.5:  Already have DFC</p><p>5.5:  There already is a crafting instance in Soulsek Eye, the one for Wyrmsteel weapons.  Expand it to also be for the mid tier mastercrafted.</p><p>6.5:  Not sure, maybe a special part of Poet's Palace or a second instance in Shimmering Citadel</p><p>7.5:  Nest of the Great Egg already has a limited unique crafting area, that could be expanded.  </p>

[Sunlei]

<p> I don't think every product is junk yet , just the common crafted was nurfed into junk. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>I don't mind the idea of adventurers having access to crafts restricted to only adventurers, long as its rare and take the adventurers many hours of killing to get the components. Also think these items should be no trade-no sell, use them on your adventurers. Thats the 'reward' for being both a crafter and adventurer...craft the better stuff for yourself, no trade.</p><p>Don't like the idea of another teir of sellers added to the market-game, especially when the new crafting change will make everyone a successfull pristine crafter. Just keep trying, only lose fuel soon everyones a winner <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> On top of that soon the change will be added..everyone can sell from every character. </p><p>well lets just see what happens when everyone can guarantee a pristine and sell from every character at the same time..before we add more master-crafted sellables <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rast]

<p>You pretty much covered it Deson.  But it wasn't I who argued about the pally hat, I've long argued for a mid tier crafted gear though.</p><p>In short, you can have 2 identical pieces of armor down to the point where they are level worn.  If all things are equal, the higher level piece will always have a better mitigation percentage.  It is actually possible to take a piece of armor with a slightly lower mitigation but a higher level wearable and increase your effective mitigation.</p><p>I've heard this holds true for attack rating and weapons, but I've not really done alot of testing on that, so I won't comment other than to bring forth that it wouldn't suprise me if this were in fact true.</p><p>Now, while this has a limited impact on most classes, those who need the mitigation to survive (tanks) get hit especially hard by the crafted armor, because they are the only classes who's main purpose of the armor is scaled in such a fashion.</p>

[Vonotar]

<cite>Troubor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm half inclined to suggest that new instances be made for the crafting ones.  But if we were to use existing locations, I'd suggest the following:</p><p>2.5:  Either a)  Special instance within Stormhold and/or Fallen Gate (smithy or craftsman shop in either, both would logically have one), or new version of Bloodskull that has a smithy and other work stations.</p><p>3.5:  Nek Castle, maybe a special instance in Ruins of Varsoon, or perhaps a second instance in Crushbone keep.  This one I'm possibly the least sure about.</p><p>4.5:  Already have DFC</p><p>5.5:  There already is a crafting instance in Soulsek Eye, the one for Wyrmsteel weapons.  Expand it to also be for the mid tier mastercrafted.</p><p>6.5:  Not sure, maybe a special part of Poet's Palace or a second instance in Shimmering Citadel</p><p>7.5:  Nest of the Great Egg already has a limited unique crafting area, that could be expanded.  </p></blockquote> Sticking with existing instances where possible would allow this to combine nicely with some zone revamps in much the same way as what happened with DFC. I love the idea of expanding the Nest of the Great Egg, that would work perfectly.  However I suspect Solusek Eye won't be a good location without breaking the whole 'floods of mobs' concept (mobs will spawn and attack continually while making Wyrmsteel weapons) and I doubt SoE will want two instances of the same Forge...

[Liyle]

In game logic it makes no sense either, to have all Mastercrafted gear be the lowest level in each tier. Supposedly the logic is that you enter tier(x) zone with no tier(x) rares (because you have never been there before) and as you progress you find a few rares through harvesting, take them to your friendly neighborhood Mastercraftsman and get yourself something nice back. Conversely, by the time you are at the end of each tier you should have gotten plenty of chest drops far better than you can get from Mastercrafted plus the coin to buy from the broker those items you weren't able to get during your adventuring, so the logic breaks down.

[leiela]

Personally i'd like to steer clear of the idea of just putting special crafting tables in hard to get to locations, mostly because im a pure crafter so none of my charecters have the adventure levels to go to and of these zones <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  

[Nuhus]

I don't really care for the escort idea. And it would be escort for a pure crafter even if you had the zone cleared. They'd still need to get to that zone.

[Vonotar]

<cite>leiela wrote:</cite><blockquote> Personally i'd like to steer clear of the idea of just putting special crafting tables in hard to get to locations, mostly because im a pure crafter so none of my charecters have the adventure levels to go to and of these zones <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </blockquote>But at least such a  this concept would be optional, and (for example) level 42 Mastercrafted would still be better than level 37 Mastercrafted, just not quite as good as level 47 Mastercrafted. This is a better trade-off between pure crafting, and craft/adventure than having specially crafted (in zone) items that are better than the next tier. Besides, if persistant raid zones is extended to group instances I suspect we could have adventurers clearing a zone, then coming back to the empty zone later with tradeskill friends ;o))

[Liyle]

I like the idea of crafting tables in hard to get to locations. Harder the better, IMHO. I think a large part of the problem is one-size-fits-all, lowest-common-denominator crafting to begin with. In the adventuring sphere, I don't raid because I don't like to but I don't think everyone should be forced into my personal mold. If that's what is fun about the game for them, then more power to 'em. I will never have the Fabled gear they wear, but that's my choice and I find that for the small group play I enjoy I don't need it anyway.

[khanthemighty]

<p>To be perfectly honest, I don't think we are acknowledging the other side of the coin here.  We have to understand, where EQ2 sits today, and what the market wants from a gaming stand point.</p><p> Before EQ2's launch, Sony wanted to attract as many different consumers to thier product.  So it satisfied their 'MMO' players with fun and challenging adventure content, and satisfied their 'RPG' types with an updated crafting system and content.</p><p>There is no denying Sony knows which side their bread is buttered on, and adventure content draws more people to subscription.  RPG doesn't, therfore, it gets neglected, while great adventure content is added regularly.  There are simply not enough crafters in this game for Sony to want to make TS-ing a vital part of the game. In a sense, it is a necessary 'evil' for adventurers to do, so that they may complete quests, and save money on consumables.</p><p>If Sony chose to release a pure crafting pack (like an adventure pack, cause they would never release a pure crafting expansion), we all know it would lose tons of money...very few would want it, or buy it...Bottom Line, crafting is a part of EQ2, but it is not what EQ2 is about...It's about the struggles between races, between good and evil, and the ensuing battles between them (emphasis on the word 'battles'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...</p>

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

<cite>khanthemighty wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To be perfectly honest, I don't think we are acknowledging the other side of the coin here.  We have to understand, where EQ2 sits today, and what the market wants from a gaming stand point.</p><p> Before EQ2's launch, Sony wanted to attract as many different consumers to thier product.  So it satisfied their 'MMO' players with fun and challenging adventure content, and satisfied their 'RPG' types with an updated crafting system and content.</p><p>There is no denying Sony knows which side their bread is buttered on, and adventure content draws more people to subscription.  RPG doesn't, therfore, it gets neglected, while great adventure content is added regularly.  There are simply not enough crafters in this game for Sony to want to make TS-ing a vital part of the game. In a sense, it is a necessary 'evil' for adventurers to do, so that they may complete quests, and save money on consumables.</p><p>If Sony chose to release a pure crafting pack (like an adventure pack, cause they would never release a pure crafting expansion), we all know it would lose tons of money...very few would want it, or buy it...Bottom Line, crafting is a part of EQ2, but it is not what EQ2 is about...It's about the struggles between races, between good and evil, and the ensuing battles between them (emphasis on the word 'battles'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...</p></blockquote>I think you are grossly underestimating the crafting community.  First off, Sony has said that they will probably not launch adventure packs in the future, but launch LU instead.  Believe it or not there is a large portion of the community who crafts, even if the majority of the crafters are hybrid adventure/tradeskill, there are still a small portion who are tradeskill only ... meaning they have no adventuring skills at all.  Even though this is a small portion, tradeskill quest lines and the addition of recipies that can be obtained/crafted without the need of adventuring skills or escorts would be extremely welcomed.  I personally am an adventure/tradeskill hybrid and would absolutely love to see zones filled with puzzles and mazes that require using your brain rather than your sword to get through to obtain recipies and access to unique crafting stations.  I would probably play my tradeskills more frequently if they implemented something along those lines. 

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

<p>stupid double post .. sorry </p>

[khanthemighty]

Anobabylon@Befallen wrote: <blockquote><cite>khanthemighty wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To be perfectly honest, I don't think we are acknowledging the other side of the coin here.  We have to understand, where EQ2 sits today, and what the market wants from a gaming stand point.</p><p> Before EQ2's launch, Sony wanted to attract as many different consumers to thier product.  So it satisfied their 'MMO' players with fun and challenging adventure content, and satisfied their 'RPG' types with an updated crafting system and content.</p><p>There is no denying Sony knows which side their bread is buttered on, and adventure content draws more people to subscription.  RPG doesn't, therfore, it gets neglected, while great adventure content is added regularly.  There are simply not enough crafters in this game for Sony to want to make TS-ing a vital part of the game. In a sense, it is a necessary 'evil' for adventurers to do, so that they may complete quests, and save money on consumables.</p><p>If Sony chose to release a pure crafting pack (like an adventure pack, cause they would never release a pure crafting expansion), we all know it would lose tons of money...very few would want it, or buy it...Bottom Line, crafting is a part of EQ2, but it is not what EQ2 is about...It's about the struggles between races, between good and evil, and the ensuing battles between them (emphasis on the word 'battles'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...</p></blockquote>I think you are grossly underestimating the crafting community.  First off, Sony has said that they will probably not launch adventure packs in the future, but launch LU instead.  Believe it or not there is a large portion of the community who crafts, even if the majority of the crafters are hybrid adventure/tradeskill, there are still a <span style="font-size: medium">small portion</span> who are tradeskill only ... meaning they have no adventuring skills at all.  Even though this is a <span style="font-size: medium">small portion</span>, tradeskill quest lines and the addition of recipies that can be obtained/crafted without the need of adventuring skills or escorts would be extremely welcomed.  I personally am an adventure/tradeskill hybrid and would absolutely love to see zones filled with puzzles and mazes that require using your brain rather than your sword to get through to obtain recipies and access to unique crafting stations.  I would probably play my tradeskills more frequently if they implemented something along those lines.  </blockquote> This is my point...this game is not run by a democracy, and unfortunately this minority impacts the success of this game very little.   This is not to say that changes can't be made...

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Simple answer - risk vs. reward</p><p>Craftsman have no risk therefore no reward. </p><ol><li>When is the last time you saw a corpse in a crafting instance? ummm...forever ago. </li><li>How much skill does it take? None.</li><li>How much time does it take? Not much and getting less (we are adding more recipes for pristine bonus and now xp for writs - grinding will get faster and faster)</li><li>Do you HAVE to venture out and get any of your own materials? No. You can spend all your time in the crafting instance with the occasional trip to the bank next door. Buy your materials from broker/merchant, craft up in a few minutes, stick on broker for sale or sell back to merchant if grinding. Rinse and repeat...yawn</li></ol><p>Why?</p><ol><li>Because sub-combines were too "hard" and people wanted to do it themselves and not have to be dependent on others. (This is the same reason gear in the game is scaled for adventuring by solo/heroic/epic - the more risk involed and the more complex the situation, by adding more people, the higher the reward). </li><li>Because the masses wanted an easy crafting system and as worthless as the products are on the whole, I still see people asking for it to be simplified further. This in fact, will only make the matter worse. </li></ol><p>Bottom line -</p><p>If we want better products we need a more challenging system of crafting, period. It must require skill, it must require cooperation of some kind. I find it utterly hilarious that I can do the level 50+ "crafting" quests with my level 7-10 toons from Fallen Dynasty solo.</p><p>Sure, leave the current system in place for those that want easy crafting but really, we need to bring back sub-combines and another level to crafting which requires more skill to complete before we can ever expect to make items on par with the drops in the game. Crafting vs. true Master Crafting. Much like the secondary skills of Tinkering and Transmuting, they will be expensive, time consuming and in the end sub combines can provide Heroic and Epic content is done correctly. </p><p>Groups and raid parties could be formed to do a writ given by the tradeskill NPC's. The writ could only be obtained by the group/raid leader and would disappear if the group or raid disbanded. This would ensure the content wasnt being done by solo players with multiple crafters (if you want to multi-box go for it, not sure how you will for raid content but whatever). Early steps might require the fashioning of subcombines and various components. Later and last steps might require timed events for various components. A "raid" event might only produce one dropped fabled item that gets rolled on - much like adventuring raids now. Those items should be on par with drops for those areas.</p><p>The biggest problem with that suggestion - dev time. We have 1 TS dev, think about how many it takes to develop similar content for adventuring....</p>

[Nuhus]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The biggest problem with that suggestion - dev time. We have 1 TS dev, think about how many it takes to develop similar content for adventuring....</p></blockquote><p>I think she's the only dedicated TS dev, but not the only one that works on tradeskills. </p><p>But I'll atill agree with you on the dev time thing, my take is SOE doesn't want to put any effort into the tradeskilling side because it's not as big as the adventuring side. It's not what I think about domino, I think she's pretty good for the most part. But SOE probably doesn't want to invest alot of dev time into it. Which is why everything in the database is getting cut down. </p>

[Valdaglerion]

<blockquote><blockquote> I personally am an adventure/tradeskill hybrid and would absolutely love to see zones filled with puzzles and mazes that require using your brain rather than your sword to get through to obtain recipies and access to unique crafting stations.  I would probably play my tradeskills more frequently if they implemented something along those lines.  </blockquote></blockquote><p>In theory so would I but the problem is those quest would be trivalized in minutes. Walk throughs would appear on the various fansites almost instantly.</p><p>Go to NPC1, answers are x,y,z. They would require 0 skill. For adventure quest, if done at appropriate levels, you always have the risk of being killed at any turn and having to fight certain mobs which require proper gear and some skill at the very least even with a walk thorugh guide.</p><p>Any quest which requires no skill to complete and only requires the answers to a puzzle wont provide any benefit. The caveat to that is a random system in which the variables constantly change in the puzzles. </p><p>Consider your maze suggestion for a moment. The pathing engines are the bread and butter of virtual gaming worlds. They use AI and advanced mathematics to achieve them. You have to program a computer to think like a person (I can walk here but cant walk there because there is a table/wall in the way). All objects and terrain in the world are given values which allow movement, speed, etc. Random spawn nodes generally dont affect movement, they are only placed for interactivity, thus you can walk over harvesting nodes. They are complex models as is and are some of the most challeneging scenarios in the game (think of all the times you get the cant see this or walking into walls or wondering why you cant move there scenarios, what about the lighted waypoint lines that are constantly changing direction - that is a the pathing engine re-calculating what it thinks is the right path to the point you have requested). Constructing a chaos instance where the basic structure of terrain must be re-calculated based on the placement of random walls to construct an ever changing maze and collision sequence would be a challenge indeed. I mean no disrepect to Domino but I think this level of programming is outside the scope of her current skill set. However, such a zone would be difficult for every player, every time and should warrant a decent reward.</p>