The big question - its getting faster to grind, then what?

[Valdaglerion]

<p>I sat back last night and contemplated all the changes we have seen to crafting over the last few months. Many of them are on spot with the things the forums groups have been asking for prior to Domino coming on board and have corrected many things (kudos - domino!)</p><p>And then I wondered - "truly, how is this changing crafting at all or making it better or more profitable or even a more valid play style?"</p><p>All changes are aesthetic or basically bug related (both code and logic). But what about all the new things that have been added? Domino has worked very hard to clean up someone else's mess and add some things in as well, what about those??</p><p>The things added in:</p><ol><li>New provisioner recipes: The dont provide stats so they arent being used by serious players, they are a novelty. They do provide additional pristine bonuses so you can level a little faster but they also use components which are found exclusively at NPC's which added in another money sink.</li><li>New carpenter recipes: yeah, ok. We got some new thigns to decorate with. But housing is a major point of contention is this game anyway for a variety of reasons. The only people that ever see most housing decorated are the people that pop in your house to buy something and might glance around and then leave. Carpenters find we need more items in the house as a way to display those items anyway (something no longer needed with the dressing room feature)</li><li>Dressing room feature: this is cool. people can see what some of the items look like and I do believe it has contributed to short term sales for household items primarily and some tailoring items.</li><li>Respec of tradeskill: as most of the forum users have already said they have multiple crafters and many high level ones I have yet to come across anyone in game that has actually used this feature but ok, I am sure there are a few that have, cant really see anyone over level 35 or so doing it.</li></ol><p>If I missed anything, forgive me. Those are the major ones that come to mind.</p><p>Things still wished for:</p><ol><li>Fuel merchants for our home (this would be cool, just kinda goes to the same thing - if the crafts dont improve this will only make it more efficient to be less than desirable)</li><li>Able to Tinker and Transmute: this helps make the supplemental skills more viable but Tinkering is not a tradeskill, its an adventuring skill. Look at the end products - the godo ones were made tinkering only or no-trade. The "fluff" ones are now having no-trade removed...whoopeedo...you could comission them anyway so they only difference will be they will be stacked on the broker now. They are fluff, how many people are going to run out and by a pair of goggles? (the underwater ones maybe, thats about it though)</li><li>More recipes (this has still yet to be worked out as to what these are going to be but if the items are similar to what we already have in the way of usefulness, why bother? other than it gives crafters something else to make, what purpose does it serve?)</li><li>Crafting instances in outlying cities (heck, I made have made this request for majdul many times but at the end of the day, its just a change of scenery isnt it?)</li></ol><p>The list goes on and on.</p><p>Many, many things have been corrected and thanks for those Domino. I suppose, I am kind of beginning to wonder though - whats the real point??</p><p>We can grind up faster now and its about to accelerate - we are going to get xp for grinding writs along with faction and status...woohoo!</p><p>So you get to 70 and then what? </p><ol><li>The items we have are still second rate compared to those dropped in the game</li><li>Only consumables are used, mostly out of necessity (there arent consistent drops in the game for food, drinks, potions, ammo and totems). The competition in this area is fierce and operates at minimal profit.</li><li>Almost all my toons are level 70 but the demand for items is minimal and mostly at the lower levels. T3 and T6 are the most active levels. Above and below are wrothless (more so for the dynamics of the game). T6 is only there due to the rare nature of drops for that tier - most of the gear from DoF (my favorite expansion BTW) sucks and is very infrequent at best. When you can kill the epics and get small chests consistently, that is a problem.</li></ol><p>So while crafting is becoming easier what is getting better about the end results? Nothing is the answer there. Until crafting becomes harder to do with products rivaling the currently dropped legendary and fabled gear and spells in the game, crafting will always be nothing more than a stepping stone on the way to something better for adventurers. Oh, well, that and a way to keep the status price down on the houses to get the additional storage and sales slots. Come on, admit it - how many other people use the basement in SQ to store 60ish items of whatever ebony or xegonite just to scrub the status price?</p><p>This is not a flame or a troll, I want to hear the opinions from others and see if there is an experience or play style I am missing out on (where are the good crafted items I am not seeing??). I would like to hear what goods and crafting classes you see as being more sought after now. How crafting is better, not easier, but better. Many thanks in advance for your thoughts.</p>

[Rast]

<p>wish I could disagree with ya.  And while I don't care for your suggestions (as I do not see them as things that will help) crafters are pretty much where they should be unfortunately.</p><p>We have no risk, we get no reward.  We have no time sink, we have no reward.  Face it, there is nothing about crafting (in its current, or previous states) that promotes anything of real quality.  You do not need skill, you just need an infinite patiences to deal with the mundane and boring.  Until something of the nature is added (like the unrest and/or EH recipes) there is nothing we can do within our system to justify better quality gear.  Heck, in some cases it is better than it should be.</p><p>I'm not a fan of the way the EH/Unrest recipes are done and would of prefered a system where either the book was dropped or quested for and the materials were dropped.</p>

[Hukklebuk]

Completely disagree about combining tinkering and transmuting.  Any advantages in combat a tinker gets are incredibly minimal. No way is a Tinkerer and adventuring class... impossible.  Drop your real adventure class and try to beat an encounter with a jar of spiders.... not going to happen.  Does Tinkering need work, yes, lots of it, but so do some Primary tradeskill classes. most of the other points are fairly accurate, but time will tell more of the story. Particularly after Kunark cap increase.   GU37 brings some 'things' but nothing that wildly changes the mechanics or recipes. It looks the same now, because it basically is the same.  nothing of significance has changed in the system mechanics since ohh well since EoF launched. there have been spot changes, item additions / removals, bug fixes etc... but nothing significant in the mechanics that I remember.

[Valdaglerion]

Tormod@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Completely disagree about combining tinkering and transmuting.  Any advantages in combat a tinker gets are incredibly minimal. No way is a Tinkerer and adventuring class... impossible.  Drop your real adventure class and try to beat an encounter with a jar of spiders.... not going to happen.  Does Tinkering need work, yes, lots of it, but so do some Primary tradeskill classes. </blockquote><p> Just for clarification points - the items I mentioned in my OP are items that have been discussed in the threads but have not yet been implemented. They already have been discussed with majority of responders in favor of those items.</p><p>I never said combine transmuting and tinkering. It has been discussed on many threads that both (Tinkering and Transmuting) are supplemental skills and all toons should be able to take up both and not have them exclusive of each other.  </p><p>Tinkering is not an adventure class, it is a supplemental skill to adventuring. The useful items which can be made must be used by the Tinkerer and are for adventuring benefit. That in itself is what I meant by its an Adventuring skill - not a class, I never said an adventuring class. If you arent an adventuring toon, tinkering is next to worthless unless you are making overclocked tools (about the only useful thing you can sell)</p>

[Rijacki]

The answer to the big question... There are those who craft to hit certain levels without any goal other than to hit max level (or possibly get world or server firsts).  There are those who craft only to be able to make certain quest items (though those might end up being fewer with the commission system).  There are those who craft to make things for their own adventuring needs/wants.  There are those who craft to make items for the sake of making items. A faster grind reduces the impact of the level-maxers, craft for quest, and even craft for adventuring on those who craft for the sake of making things since they'll get to their goal quicker and stop (since they'll have no reason to go on). For those who craft purely for the sake of making things, the speed of the "grind" doesn't really matter since it's not the XP that matters, it's the product. 

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those who craft purely for the sake of making things, the speed of the "grind" doesn't really matter since it's not the XP that matters, it's the product.  </blockquote> Which is what this thread is really all about now isnt it? The lack of value in the end result....

[Rast]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>The answer to the big question... There are those who craft to hit certain levels without any goal other than to hit max level (or possibly get world or server firsts).  There are those who craft only to be able to make certain quest items (though those might end up being fewer with the commission system).  There are those who craft to make things for their own adventuring needs/wants.  There are those who craft to make items for the sake of making items. A faster grind reduces the impact of the level-maxers, craft for quest, and even craft for adventuring on those who craft for the sake of making things since they'll get to their goal quicker and stop (since they'll have no reason to go on). For those who craft purely for the sake of making things, the speed of the "grind" doesn't really matter since it's not the XP that matters, it's the product.  </blockquote> Yep and since we don't have much product, that doesn't leave us much of anywhere <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Deson]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>wish I could disagree with ya.  And while I don't care for your suggestions (as I do not see them as things that will help) crafters are pretty much where they should be unfortunately.</p><p>We have no risk, we get no reward.  We have no time sink, we have no reward.  Face it, there is nothing about crafting (in its current, or previous states) that promotes anything of real quality.  You do not need skill, you just need an infinite patiences to deal with the mundane and boring.  Until something of the nature is added (like the unrest and/or EH recipes) there is nothing we can do within our system to justify better quality gear.  Heck, in some cases it is better than it should be.</p><p>I'm not a fan of the way the EH/Unrest recipes are done and would of prefered a system where either the book was dropped or quested for and the materials were dropped.</p></blockquote>Just chiming in to say we agree. I'm definitely not a fan of xp tied to writs coming up since faction grinding should be an incentive entirely it's own. Also can't say I'm a fan for speed increase in general; making it smoother sure but faster griding borders on the self destructive to our markets since it lowers the dedication required to be self-sufficient and thus turns would be customers into suppliers-even if only of self. To the title question- Right now, nothing. To echo Jalathan and points made before in other threads- lacking meaningful faction(as a vector to rewards) that isn't incidental to another activity; lacking meaningful recipe acquisition that again, isn't incidental to another activity; lacking meaningful quests for....well anything a crafter can truly use; lacking meaningful stats(impossible with the current percentage based system and lack of separate TS stat pools)and by extension, gear; and lacking an actual varying and meaningful process,  we are essentially dead in the water for our long term value. I think we are at the breach point where speed/volume changes are counterproductive and that tweaks/changes that don't affect the afore mentioned  points will only harm us without the correlative benefit that has come from every other major change. Still, having said all that, Domino herself is a good reason to hope. Her activity and general mindset provide the best evidence that the view of crafting is shifting. While there is a lot of old cleanup to be done fixing mistakes of the past and adding in content avenues that, frankly should have been in at launch, I'm waiting until RoK/immediately after before making any solid judgments. That  should be enough time to see what effect she's truly had and if the broader developmental mindset has changed enough for crafting to meet the promise of a meaningful parallel experience to adventuring.

[Valdaglerion]

<p>I think you are right about Domino - I do believe she has the desire to make things better, I only doubt she has the ability to effect the changes necessarily to make crafting truly valuable in the game (not for lack of talent but there is only so much a single resource can accmplish with time contraints).</p><p>The number of developmental resources comitted to crafting alone should tell us something I suppose. We have a single developer for crafting and how many for the adventuring side of the game?</p><p>Things that make you go hmmmm.......</p>

[dartie]

<p>I doubt there are many folks who take satisfaction in playing EQ2 the way I do, but I'll take a shot at explaining what I like about a faster grind--and answering your "then what" question.</p><p>For *me*, there are 2 primary reasons to craft: </p><p>1) to hit L66 and use the overclocked harvesting tools; and</p><p>2) to make adornments.</p><p>I'm working up all 9 trades at the moment, and I really don't have much interest in the stuff that they make at levels that don't end in a 5.  </p><p>WHY THE ABILITY TO MAKE HANDCRAFTED GENERALLY DOESN'T INTEREST ME</p><p>Umm, it isn't very good. </p><p>WHY THE ABILITY TO MAKE MASTERCRAFTED GENERALLY DOESN'T INTEREST ME</p><p>I think mastercrafted gear is *great*.  I know there are some people who say that it isn't as good as treasured loot drops, but they appear to be generalizing across tiers.  I *love* dinging #2 with an alt and outfitting myself in all mastercrafted gear.</p><p>BUT I tend not to make much of my own mastercrafted gear even though I am bringing up all 9 trades (70 tailor, 70 sage, 63 jeweler, 53 woodworker, 48 alchy, rest between 30 and 40).   </p><p>It may be true that on some servers you can save yourself a little money by being able to make your own mastercrafted gear.  On my server, however, most mastercrafted gear (not just weapons and armor, but jewelry and sales displays and furniture) is available at a cost that is cheaper than the rare because <i>more crafters want the the first-time xp bonus for making such items than there are adventurers who want to buy such items</i>.  </p><p>Puzzlingly, I see some crafters RESTOCKING their mastercrafted items at a cost below the going rate for the rares they have to use to make them.  From my perspective, this is insanity.  They aren't exactly losing money because they harvest the rares themselves.  But there is an opportunity cost.  Instead of selling a feysteel cluster for 75 gp, they'll take the time and trouble to find one, turn it into a helmet, and sell the helmet for 50 gp, since there are already three other such helms listed between 50 and 60 gp. </p><p>Why not just sell the feysteel cluster?  I think it's because they honestly take pleasure in *making stuff*.  Bully for them.  Not my style.  The upshot of this is that I only rarely use my own crafters to supply my adventurers with mastercrafted gear.  Even though I have  L70 tailor, I can often find mastercrafted leather on the broker that is cheaper than the pelts used to make it, so my monk buys his armor from other tailors even though my tailor could make it all for him.</p><p>WHY THE OVERCLOCKED TOOLS DO INTEREST ME</p><p>Umm, they're very very fast.</p><p>WHY ADORNMENTS INTEREST ME</p><p>Like mastercrafted gear, some adornments are overproduced.  On my server, anything with "brawny" in the name gets a lot of attention--so it's easy to find glimmering brawny straps more cheaply than the cost of the 5 treasured T4 items one would have to mung in order to make the straps.  But other adornments are hit or miss.  Sometimes the going rate for them is outrageously disproportionate to the cost.  Sometimes there is simply no one who stocks them.  </p><p>Apart from the use of the overclocked harvesting tools, the ability to make my own adornments really does make crafting worthwhile for me.  My jeweler doesn't make jewelry for my fury.  Other jewelers consistently sell moonstone earrings for less than it would cost me to buy my own moonstone.  But I'll make *one* moonstone earring to get the xp bonus so that I can get to L65 that much quicker.  L55 was the last level that really mattered to me because jewelers get to make some sweet lambent adornments.  I'm now looking forward to scintillating adornments at L65, but everything in between is just the stuff I'll grind to get there.</p><p>And by the time I've made all those L65 adornments, I'll be L66.  My jeweler (who is a L12 wizard) will then be able to equip the overclocked tools and go through the quests in Antonica while harvesting VERY QUICKLY.  </p><p>Man, that suits me just fine.</p><p>I'm not trying to speak for anyone else, so those of you who are convinced that faster leveling is pointless can remain convinced of it.  For me, I would love it if my jeweler could have been L66 weeks ago.  Some raiders say that the game starts at L70.  For my alts, the adventure begins once they hit crafting L66.</p>