anyone considering strength/agility and wisdom lines with the aa changes?

[Pgaan]

gonna lose manburn or iceshape but faster casting/more crits and more overall damage might be better? thoughts ?

[Vonotar]

I've been working my wizard towards Str/Agi since before the first EoF changes. I have EoF AA's i'd like to move to KoS in order to achieve this quicker, I know they are making this possible in the next LU but I reckon I will have earnt enough extra AA by then anyway.

[TsarRasput]

the dps difference is roughly 1.5% more with STR over WIS, at 2000 dps, that's about 30 dps.  To gain that extra 30 dps, everything you do costs 12% more.  I can go through all of the math if you wish, but while it's a little bit more damage, you lose a lot of power conservation, and if you know anything about EoF mobs, there are a TON of power drain/long fights, and power is always one of your main concerns.  Personally, because of that fact, I can't justify the extra dps.  To be honest though with the Agro changes that are going in, we may all have to spec INT line, because we'll be dying a lot more with the tank not able to agro anymore

[Pgaan]

correct,but i was thinking of using all 3 lines...strength,agility and wisdom lines...thoughts??

[Dextera]

<p>I have no idea where Tsar is getting his math, but overall STR = WIS. Go STR if you're doing mostly short fights (KoS, Grouping, etc.) because of the high burst damage potential. Go WIS if your guild is more into EoF, due to the longer fights. WIS will help keep your sustained DPS high (but lower your burst capability.)</p><p>STR = Burst</p><p>WIS = Sustained</p><p>STR Damage = WIS Damage</p><p>Also, you want the end-line ability in each lines, it's not beneficial to go through 3 lines. You just don't have the points.</p>

[Pgaan]

thanks for the responses,im thinking you could use all 3 lines in kos tree  ( str,agi,and wis ),but would leave ya short in eof tree...iceshape or manaburn lines can be used,but not both...

[Pgaan]

looks like the aa changes will still only allow 50 points max in each tree.therefore this whole post and next live update was misleading to me. i was hoping to put 75 points in kos and 25 in eof trees respectively,but it appears i will not be able to...can anyone confirm this? thanks in advance

[Dextera]

Aye, it's still gonna be a cap of 50 in each tree. It just allows you to respec and move points from one tree to another.

[TsarRasput]

I guess I have to show the math.... Well we know Wis = 4% from brainstorm that's a given the question is STR, what does that bring. using this guide : <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=353709" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=353709</a> "<span style="color: #ff6600">Sorcerers (Wizards and Warlock) seem to have mostly an odd 2.7:5 ratio, thus gaining ~0.45% boost per point of crit.</span>" That means for every percent crit you add 0.45% dps.  Since STR is 12% crit, =5.4% dps. 5.4% - 4.0% = 1.4% dps boost The difference is that you can burn a lot longer if you have 12% more power.  Now you can try and factor in FHS vs Catalyst, but personally I think that they are both close with Catalyst winning, but for 1 spell every minute. I have no idea how to calculate the value add from AGI, if anyone has an idea that would be idea to figure out

[Darien al'Staff]

<cite>TsarRasputin wrote:</cite><blockquote>the dps difference is roughly 1.5% more with STR over WIS, at 2000 dps, that's about 30 dps.  To gain that extra 30 dps, everything you do costs 12% more.  I can go through all of the math if you wish, but while it's a little bit more damage, you lose a lot of power conservation, and if you know anything about EoF mobs, there are a TON of power drain/long fights, and power is always one of your main concerns.  Personally, because of that fact, I can't justify the extra dps.  To be honest though with the Agro changes that are going in, we may all have to spec INT line, because we'll be dying a lot more with the tank not able to agro anymore </blockquote>I'm really really really hoping the 'going the int line' thing was a joke

[Dextera]

+0.45% based off what DPS? Crit doesn't scale to DPS (like the boots/CMayong Orb/wand), but +0.45% is assuming a scaling increase if no ruler is assumed.

[TsarRasput]

Dextera@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>+0.45% based off what DPS? Crit doesn't scale to DPS (like the boots/CMayong Orb/wand), but +0.45% is assuming a scaling increase if no ruler is assumed. </blockquote> No.  Crit to DPS does not matter calculating DPS boost over a long time.  It's simple statistics.  Over a long enough period of time, 1% crit equates to upping the damage on your spells by 0.45%  or 100.45% total... every percent.  It's a linear relationship.  1% of the time, you're adding 30% - some other higher percentage.  If it's a 0.45% dps boost that says that averaged over a long time, 1 crit will be about a 45% boost to your spell no matter what other scaled amounts you add, it could be as low as 30% for anything thats within 30% of the max number, I can't get the actual numbers for Ice Nova, I can work out the exact calculations for that spell if someone can either give me a range, or I get home from work.  in any event that 30%-x% evens out over a long time to a 45% boost per single crit NO MATTER WHAT.  since it's 1% of the time you divide by 100 making it 0.45%.  I don't know what Ice Nova's Boost is specifically, but it sounds like the link I mentioned before normalized to all spells we have.  Adding other amounts like boots, or wand, or orb,  are misleading, because they don't change the %boost from crit, if say Ice nova is 10k, and the boots go off making it 11k, a crit would add at least  3.3k instead of 3k, hence the percentage is the preserved,  Now I haven't done the calculations myself, so I'm assuming that that guy's 0.45% is correct when I do this, but I do know from statistics that it is a straight DPS boost PER  PERCENT crit, and it's linear.  If you'd like to see the whole calculation I have no problem doing the whole thing, just ask.

[Dextera]

I said crit was linear. Yayz. WIS > STR.

[TheGReddy]

<p>I did the math a few weeks ago</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________</p><p>Brainstorm vs. Spell Expertise-Ok well with Brainstorm giving a straight 4% dps increase, that makes things simple for me. SE on the other hand has a cap of 11.7% on spell crit modifier. Using more math from the crit thread... (0.45*0.117=0.05265) A.K.A and increase in damage by 5.265%. </p><p>4% dps increase vs. 5.265% dps increase</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________</p><p>Yea Spell Expertise does beat Brainstorm by 5.265%.</p><p>But when you factor in that you can crit off of freehand(freehand + 0.45%) and that you cannot off of Catalyst(since it is already a crit) that gives Freehand a 1up(specially if you have a high crit rate during raids). Also you cant beat that 12% more power.</p><p>As for AGI, always go for it since you can cast your big nukes that do more dmg, sooner and faster. Ill do the math if you really want it. </p><p>EDIT: i also dont know what Tsar and Dex are going at each other about, since they both are saying Wis beats STR<img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[simpwrx02]

<p>Dex likes to argue even if he agrees just to make his tangent point, but a lot of the posters in the wizard boards do this, it is more to get his thought process into the discussion which adds to the overall quality of the topic.</p><p>When I was specced str/agi and the modifed wis/agi  My dps is so close it really didnt matter, my burst was a tiny bit higher, but my power dropped faster than a date on prom night.</p>

[Dextera]

<p>I haven't looked through the math in the post they're using completely, but I immediately see two problems.</p><p>First, the math is nearly 6 months old. How much has really changed in 6 months?</p><p>Second, they're assuming that when you crit, you're always hitting for MaxDmg+1 to MaxDmg*1.3. This is not the case, as the RNG will generate a number first, and if the number is lower than MaxDmg+1 it will round to MaxDmg+1. </p><ul><li>Ex. Wizard crits. The max dmg of the spell is 10,000dmg. The RNG rolls a 7,000 (which is below the crit threshold), the crit dmg of the spell then rounds to 10,001 (10,000+1). In the other post, they're assuming that the rolls will always occur between MaxDmg+1 and MaxDmg*1.3</li></ul><p>Maybe I'll take the time to look at the math more fully, but until then that post's numbers are incorrect to me. But I'd enjoy if someone else actually showed they're own math. My spreadsheet has 11.7% Crit equating to exactly +3.0% DPS on a 2000 DPS scale, but my spreadsheet takes longer steps.</p>

[TsarRasput]

you want exact math here you go : ice nova for me is 5464-9980 not raid buffed without food or drink If we say 5500-10000 to make calculations easier we go from there for 7700 - 10000 a 30% boost is over max so the boost is 30% from 5500-7700 it's a range 7700 it's 30% 5500 critting to 10001 is an 80% boost so averaged over the range of 5500 to 7700 it's a 55% boost so for 2200 it's an average boost of 55% for the other 2300 it's a boost of 30% 2200 * 0.55 = 1210 2300 * 0.30 = 690 1210 + 690 = 1900 1900/4500 = 0.42222 or a 42% boost for 1 crit. that means that 1% crit is a boost of 0.42%, so 0.45% isn't a bad approximation so far. BoL 2480-4318 approximated to 2500 - 4300 3300 - 4300 = 30% boost 2500 - 72% boost AVG boost 2500-3300 51% 800 *.051 = 408 1000 * 0.3 = 300 708 / 1800 = 39% Irradiate 607-1079 + 246-440 dot 600-1080 + 250-440 dot AVG DD part: 830-1080 = 30% boost 600 = 80% boost 600-830 avg boost = 55% boost 230 * 0.55 = 126.5 250 * 0.30 =  75 201.5 / 480 = 42% boost Dot part: 340-440 = 30% boost 250 = 76% boost avg boost of 250-340 = 53% 90*0.53 = 47.7 100 * 0.3 = 30 77.7 /190 = 41% boost From those 3 while closer to 0.4% 0.45% boost isn't horrendous for calculating crit boost.

[TsarRasput]

Ok I started thinking about the way BoE works, and I recalculated Ice Nova after removing all all of my BoE gear Ice nova was 4917-9131 approximated to 4900 - 9100 so 30% cutoff is 7000 at 4900 the boost is 85% so the avg boost from 4900 - 7000 is 57.5% 2100 * 0.575 = 1207.5 2100 * 0.30 = 630 1830.5/4200 = 0.4375 so almost 44% or 0.44%  it appears that BoE actually lowers the effectiveness of crits,  I'll need to do further calculations, but this is an interesting find. It may not seem like much, but it seems that BoE has a normalizing effect to Crits. EDIT: Some guildies pointed out that BoE doesn't get Critted it doesn't get added until AFTER the crit has been applied so 0.44% the correct number, so 0.45% would be correct

[slippery]

Your math is wrong. I'll use your numbers, 4900-9100 which is an average damage of 7000 and 7000 is the point at which you have to hit higher than to gain more damage. So with 100% crits you have a 50% chance of it doing 9101 and 50% chance of it doing more than that to a max of 11830, or an average damage of 9783. That is an increase of 2783 over the average of 7000 damage, or a .397% increase for 1% crit. The consider most our spells see less than that for an increase.

[sgbarber]

Strength lines is more fun so if you're grouping do Str/Wis (or Str/Agi) & get manaburn for crazy burst damage. I was spec'd for Str/Agi for a week and I agree that the power hit isn't worth it, I ended up pumping AA into Accord to try to make up for it. (Respec'd to Agi/Wis today.)

[Falcogen]

<p>It has been a while since i have explored a different aa line from AGI - WIS</p><p>I experimented last night with STR - AGI. I was at 44% spell crit had TC and my usual dps gear on Robe Al Kabour Etc</p><p>I Parsed Significantly lower than my AGI - WIS build and would not recommend any other lines to a raiding wizard </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: x-large">AGI - WIS FTW</span> </span></p>