AA Specs Prep for upcoming Hate Changes(If in MT GRp)

[mcavellero]

<p>Now that coercers are pretty much going to replace swash/assa in MT Group, how will you have your AAs setup?</p><p>Here's the thing, with the hate transfer, we are going to have to have to dps to help the tank hold aggro.  I Am thinking </p><p><u>KOS</u></p><p>AGI 4, 8, 8, 8, 1 </p><p>WIS 4, 4, 8</p><p> Now I may be totally off...the goal here is to be able to dps more but also provide soem utility to the MT grp.  </p><p>However switching my AAs away from the Wis line will decrease my subj by a lot.  Therefore mezzing in places like Castle Mistmoore will be a whole lot harder...  I have master mezzes,403 subj, around 700Int and they STILL resist my mezzes [Removed for Content].  I can only imagine what bring it down toa round 350 will do...   But we gotta be able to pump out that dps now.  /sigh. </p><p> EOF AAs are a no brainer... </p><p>What do you guys think?</p>

[Controlor]

There are hidden hate other than pure dps you have to consider. The only thing really that dps is observable hate. So its kind of tricking you to think that the only way to increase hate is through dps (because its observed). Where as buffing (Look at SK's and DM it is a buff but it grabs a LOT of hate and doesnt have a taunt portion to it its just from being a buff). Look at stuns. Look at pr drain (yes pr drain counts in terms of dps but is not counted towards your dps). Look at daze. All of these generate hate. And dare i say it stuns prob generate more hate than raw dmg. There was a coercer posting on another forum that they generally are top of the hate list just because of the "invisable hate". Sure boosting your dps will increase your over all hate, but its key to remember dps is not hte ONLY way to get agro. *edit* also you wont replace a swashy or assassin you will replace the 3rd healer. Most MT groups will now be Dirge Coercer Swashy/assassin Temp Defiler MT. This allows for a cap of hate increase while putting hate transfer over 35%.

[mcavellero]

<p>Aye Stuns will generate a lot of hate however parsing 400 vs 1200 consistantly (with good the right AAs) will make a big difference which is what I am trying to accomplish.  I figure with the AGI not only will I be reducing the timers on my DPS Spell BUT also by stuns AND by mezzes.  So there's great benefit there. </p><p>As for setup, it all depends on what your MT grp needs.  In our guild our tank holds hate well even with no transfer.  Having a Templar(Stone skin HP), Defiler(Wards, Pure HP, reactive debuffs), and warden (Sandstorm, +Defense=avoidance, quick regens, +lotto heals, +A sick amount of wisdom for resistances) would be way too much to lose even for a swashy parsing at 2500 (which is only a 450 additional hate gain if they have the new master version).   I guess it all depends if you don't have troubies and other classes like that or enough hate decreasers on a raid, you might consider popping 2 scouts in there and losing a healer BUT you will be losing a lot of benefits for only a, at max, 450 hate boost.</p><p> LOL but getting back to the topic, what AAs would you go down to boost hate/dps.</p>

[Controlor]

Pure dps spec is Agi/ Int. Agi helps casting faster and reduces global cool down. At max it should cut all your casting speeds in half if you are able to build up perpet 5. But you have to be constantly casting for that. Int going to the end line and staying under 30% pr will bring your dps up a lot also. As an illy Agi / Int ill can parse 2k dps. I am Agi / Wis but i can parse 1k+. For staying a MT Coercer i would prob say Agi Sta to build up some dps and for heal crits. If you have an illy in the raid religate the mezing to them. Illy mez > coercer mez due to aa's. If your worried about your subj invest in + subj gear. BUT the bigest thing that will increase your dps is NOT the aa. Its PROCCING gear. Agi + proccing gear = lots of extra dmg = lots of dps. Each peice of proccing gear gives me about 50 or so dps. Think my proccing gear alone brings in bout 300+ dps for me.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Uh yeah... just having fast casting doesn't make you a DPS machine really. It's a lot about the procs. Doubling the proc rate of half a dozen proc items can mean a huge jump in DPS. Since I personally have squat for procs (grizz, belt, ear, that's it), I see minimal increase from Agi line. That and Perpet5 is hard to maintain after the change where it drops to 0 now. I've tested the Strength line, redid my gear, and am pulling down 200 extra DPS from my autoattack and combat arts alone. And that's without having fully geared for strength and melee adornment. I'm sure I could eventually get more out of Agi when I get Claymore line proc items, etc... but for the moment I'm actually getting some decent DPS.

[hypnotic]

I think this is a welcome change to the wa we play our class so many coercer get in the habit of just afk raiding and that is not what we are there for we are there to provide support and dps, although we are the lower tier of mage dps, we can still do it. In quasi gear, i can parse 1500-2000 regularly and avg zone wide 1500 in eof and that is going with the agi/int build. We will this helps loads since we cast faster we put more stuns out thus more hate so with the newest lu on the rise, this is a welcome change maybe people will see we can acctually do so damage and it will further solidify the fact that we have a place in raids. So when you complain about losing subj. go buy some subj. gear you dont mezz on raids, at least not enough to warrent your focus on that. you should be doing what you can to help your raid further it self and sitting at 500dps is not that.

[Vydian]

IMHO, if you are going to be a mainstay in the MT group, you are hindering the raid by not taking STA. A single target hate reducer that now has range, 16% heal crit to 2 or 3 healers, a small (yet possibly more meaningful after the hate changes) group wide hate reducer, and an ability to drop someone down the hate list 2 spots. STA is pretty much THE raid support line. As far as hate goes, I am almost always near the top of the list and I have been specced STA/WIS for a long time. Currently, it is broken down:     STA - 4,4,8,6,2     WIS - 4,4,4,8     AGI - 4,1 Right now, I am only using the misty protector as a damage proc. So yes, my DPS is only around 600-800 (spikes over 1k depending on the fight), yet I am consistently in the top 5 for hate. All of our secondary effects seem to generate quite a bit of agro: stuns, stifle, daze, power drain, etc. Raw DPS for a coercer doesn't really compare to everything else we can throw in a fight. That being said, getting as much DPS as you can is a good thing. The only reason I have the WIS line still is because my gear can't make up for the loss in subj and resists (though the resists are minor given current mechanics). Daydream is handy in a pitch, but if I didn't need the subj, I would drop the whole line. That would open up more of the AGI line and perhaps some of the INT line. The STR line is interesting too as an extra source of DPS. But the best you'll be able to do is maybe that of a half asleep assassin.... Anyway, point being is that for the upcoming changes to hate, going for full DPS isn't the best answer. Doing what you can to increase it is great, but don't ignore the rest of your tools.

[mcavellero]

Not trying to change the topic but ok so now I am investing points into AGI/STA.  What now about my drop in subj from 408 to 366 (Currently maxed out for subj Wis AA).  I noticed this made a huge difference in Castle MM and with mezzing....  Prior to this AA spec I had about 366 subj, master mezzes, 700+ Int(don't think int makes a difference with subj based spells but you never know) and every other spell was a resist.  With the WiS AA maxed, there are resists but nearly not as many.  And I am sure you guys know that in the Castle having a mezz resist could mean a total wipe especially with the potential for killer adds there.  Is there anything else or tricks I can use to ensure when I cast a mezz it sticks on besides having really high subj?

[Vydian]

Well, I would try out what I am currently specced from my previous post. I get to keep the +subj (which I love too) and I get a little bit of fast casting. Honestly, don't try so much to spec for DPS and try on what you can do to pump out as much as you can with what you have. I can guarantee you that if you are using all of our spells, you'll generate plenty of hate for the new transfer. If you are looking for ways to help your DPS out with a support spec, you can try altering you cast order some. Debuffs go first (of course), then I try to alternate our single target nuke around throwing up reactives, DoTs, etc. I am pretty much always casting in every fight. Even if I am just refreshing a reactive, debuff, whatever, I'm always casting something. Damage proc gear is excellent for this, though I tend to not sacrifice significant upgrades for them (i.e. Orb of the Invoker is trash except for the proc, the BCG isn't all that great either save the proc). Try to time some of your bigger hitters (Ego Torrent, Sonic Boom) for Dispatch calls. If you have Tash, use it first also. Dispatch+Tash+our other mental debuffs will pretty much floor a mobs mental resistance. If you have good timing, Spell Scourge and Auspex with those debuffs on will hit very hard on certain mob AoE attacks. The problem with having 50 pts in the chanter tree is that you can't have everything. I tend to play to the class strengths instead of trying turn myself into something I am not. And an MT coercer is really not a DPS machine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Controlor]

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not trying to change the topic but ok so now I am investing points into AGI/STA.  What now about my drop in subj from 408 to 366 (Currently maxed out for subj Wis AA).  I noticed this made a huge difference in Castle MM and with mezzing....  Prior to this AA spec I had about 366 subj, master mezzes, 700+ Int(don't think int makes a difference with subj based spells but you never know) and every other spell was a resist.  With the WiS AA maxed, there are resists but nearly not as many.  And I am sure you guys know that in the Castle having a mezz resist could mean a total wipe especially with the potential for killer adds there.  Is there anything else or tricks I can use to ensure when I cast a mezz it sticks on besides having really high subj?</blockquote>Unfortunatly no. Its a double edged sword. Coercers need high subj to mez / charm effectivly. But to get higher dps while maintaining support for raids the better choice is agi/sta. This as you note will effect your group game. For a raiding perspective let ILLUSIONISTS do the mezing. They have better mez you guys have better stuns. So for a raid if you can get an illy and you really need a lot of mezing in raids have em go agi/wis. If you only need spot mezing rarely then have the illy go agi/int but make sure they put 5 pts into main mez and 3 into regalia as they go down the TC line in EoF. (The 5 in main mez adds 7.5 seconds and 25% harder to resist the mez as is so they dont need as high subj the 3 in regalia adds 3 seconds to it and 15% harder resist its the secondary mez of an illy). Agi/Sta however wont help you much in groups as you need wisdom line for the subj. The only thing i can sugest is to carry around 2 sets of gear. A coercer friend of mine does this. Has a whole set dedicated JUST to +subj gear. When your going into a place that doesnt need a lot of mezing (most zones) than throw on normal dps gear. If you go into a zone that needs good mezing (nazaria / CMM) then throw on subj gear. Your dps will take a hit but thats expected as your primary job is mezing. There is enough +subj gear out there to prob boost you to about 400 or so subj. Thats pretty much the only sugestion i can make if you want high dps/utility for raid but still need +subj for grouping. Aside from constantly respecing (expensive).

[Obzie]

     This subject has always been a semi heated one for coercers. From a pure raiding perspective as the OP insinuated, I would have to go with the Agi / Int spec. If you are replacing the assassin or swash in the MT grp then your MT grp has already survived without heal crits or deaggros just fine before you.      If we are indeed replacing the hate transfer, then we need to maximize our personal dps to take full advantage of the new changes. The more hate the tank accrues the more dps the raid as a whole can safely do without the mob breaking off and snacking on dps.      Now if you are building your coercer for single grp content, almost any build is viable, and you should go with whatever feel allows you to play the class to the best of your abilities. +Subj gear can be found all over nowadays, and with the advent of adornments it is even more prevalent. Obzidian

[Vydian]

<cite>Obzie wrote:</cite><blockquote>      If we are indeed replacing the hate transfer, then we need to maximize our personal dps to take full advantage of the new changes. Obzidian </blockquote>People.....you need to get over the fact that DPS is NOT the only way to generate hate. For coercers, it more than likely isn't even the best way. Stop thinking big orange numbers (which we really can't do anyway) and think about the whole coercer picture. As to the MT group getting by without your heal crit and such...so what? An enchanter has and more than likely always will be the class that makes jobs EASIER. Aside from good CC skills in an instance or something, you won't be turning tides in a battle, with DPS or otherwise. What we excel at is making everything else go smoother. The WIS line is subject to playstyle and gear, but if you are in the MT group on a permanent basis and you don't have STA, you are hurting the raid.

[Lord Montague]

I'm with Vydian on this one.  Personally, I will likely not make any changes from my current spec after GU37 goes live.

[Obzie]

     I'm not sure what you mean by DPS not being the best way for us to generate hate, I mean obviously you are stunning, stifling and dazing when needed but for the other 80% of the fight where the immunity timers for these abilities are on the mob what can you do other then dps to generate hate?  Understand that everything I say comes from a purely raiding perspective, for instances and grouping there are many more viable builds then agi / int.      Too often coercers fall into the "buff bot" routine and never really get themselves out of that funk, granted we will never be tier one dps.  With the hate transfer aspect of the new changes if your raids are not running a coercer in the main tank group now, and you are parsing 600-800 on mobs there really would not be any reason to place them in the main tank grp after these changes.  I cant remember the last time I actually mezzed in a raid zone, 99% of the time if a mob is mezzable it is also stunnable and you are better off working stuns and ae'ing the trash down until you are only left with the true epic.      Main tank grps should be built for 2 things, hate, and HP's for the main tank. Heal crits just aren't all that important if your tanks are losing aggro. Obzidian

[Vydian]

<cite>Obzie wrote:</cite><blockquote>     I'm not sure what you mean by DPS not being the best way for us to generate hate, I mean obviously you are stunning, stifling and dazing when needed but for the other 80% of the fight where the immunity timers for these abilities are on the mob what can you do other then dps to generate hate?  Understand that everything I say comes from a purely raiding perspective, for instances and grouping there are many more viable builds then agi / int.      Too often coercers fall into the "buff bot" routine and never really get themselves out of that funk, granted we will never be tier one dps.  With the hate transfer aspect of the new changes if your raids are not running a coercer in the main tank group now, and you are parsing 600-800 on mobs there really would not be any reason to place them in the main tank grp after these changes.  I cant remember the last time I actually mezzed in a raid zone, 99% of the time if a mob is mezzable it is also stunnable and you are better off working stuns and ae'ing the trash down until you are only left with the true epic.      Main tank grps should be built for 2 things, hate, and HP's for the main tank. Heal crits just aren't all that important if your tanks are losing aggro. Obzidian </blockquote>I can only tell you what I have experienced in countless hours of raiding. 1) I'm the only raiding coercer in my guild and have been in the MT group since we started raiding. 2) Aside from a brief period of time where I had AGI instead of WIS, my chanter tree has always included STA. 3) I have not once, ever, played buff bot. I am constantly casting something during every fight. That includes all my damage dealing spells. 4) Aside from DPS pulling aggro during a fight, if the MT goes down, I am almost always next as the mob heads straight for me. And that is with the 8% group dehate from the STA line. That tells me that I am obviously doing something right with hate generation.  While I am always looking for ways to increase my DPS, I won't have to worry about it hindering my ability to use the new transfer. And I'm sorry. but if you can't see the benefit of a 1k+ dehate that now has range along with dropping someone's threat position by 2 ESPECIALLY with the upcoming hate changes, I really don't know what to tell you. AGI/INT was the answer for coercers outside the MT group since sever empathy used to be garbage and the heal crit wasn't put to good use unless you had multiple healers. Going full DPS was pretty much all you had. But I still stand by my statement that if you are in the MT group 100% after these changes, and you don't take the STA line, reroll or let another coercer take your spot that can actually benefit the group.

[Blumfield]

<blockquote> As far as hate goes, I am almost always near the top of the list and I have been specced STA/WIS for a long time. Currently, it is broken down:     STA - 4,4,8,6,2     WIS - 4,4,4,8     AGI - 4,1  </blockquote><p>Creepy.  Two point different.  Great minds...</p><p>As for MT groups being all about hate and MT HP, well, yeah.  But you also have to figure your two or three best healers are going to be in the MT group.  They're the ones you would most want to have heal crits.  (BTW:  Do we know for sure whether shaman/cleric heal crit AAs stack with our heal crit group buffs?  I haven't seen any reliable info one way or another.)</p><p>Anyway, with the new changes and this build, the MT can (almost) be an autoattack bot if you're on your game.  Generating a ton of hate with DPS is nice, but sometimes it's easier to just slap a Sever Hate on whoever's doing enough damage to peel.  Then, with 90 second recast Thought Snap.... you get the picture.  Either playstyle is viable.  Personally, I'd rather be free to concentrate on timing stuns/stifles/dazes/CC AAs rather than being forced to constantly DPS at 1200+ to keep hate on the tank.   </p>

[Smiddy]

Dreamweaver line is useless. If the coercive healing isn't enough for your healers to keep the MT up then get new healers. If your tank is having a hard time holding agro with hate gain and hate x-fer capped, then get a new tank. And if you can't regularly do enough DPS/stunning/debuffing to generate enough hate then betray to illusionist.

[Lord Montague]

Smiddy@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>Dreamweaver line is useless.... </blockquote>To you.  It may be fine if you believe it is useless, and in your opinion not worth persuing but I wouldn't go invalidating others opinions just because it doesn't fit your point of view.  I swear, I see this pervailing attitude with every class I've played, and its silly.  Heaven forbid there be more than one way to skin a cat.

[Smiddy]

The OP asked how to set up AAs for the upcoming GU which places coercers in a position of needing to generate hate to be effective (we're not just a hate gain buffbot anymore). If we can't do that then we may as well be replaced with a swashy or assassin. So when I say that lines other than AGI/INT are useless in this regard, I mean it. I don't see how a CHANCE to help a healer land a Crit Heal helps us generate hate. I say let the healers heal, it's their job, and as coercers our job is now to generate hate. WIS line is useful in specific situations, raiding and generating hate is not one of them...are your stuns getting resisted? +Subjugation gear FTW!

[Vydian]

Smiddy@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>Dreamweaver line is useless <b>if you have the gear to negate the bonuses it provides or don't care about locking down hard content when needed.</b> </blockquote>Fixed that for ya. And I hope you aren't planning to spec AGI/INT like you are now in the MT group, cause if you are, you don't have any business telling others what is useless or not....

[Lord Montague]

And I will continue to disagree with you, as others have pointed out that damage is not the only way a coercer generates hate.  Useless to you does not mean useless to everyone else.  But you're right and I'm wrong, whatever.

[Smiddy]

I can totally see the utility in the Dreamweaver line in certain circumstances, but I fail to see it's utility "If in MT GRp" as OP stated (which implies raiding). BTW what encounters are you having a hard time "locking down" spec'd AGI/INT? And how does adding the WIS line make these encounters possible? I've offended some of you with my opinion and will not post here again. I am merely trying to address the questions from the perspective of a raiding MT coercer. Raid MT groups are moving toward having only two healers in the MT group, and in some cases ONLY a templar. If you are among these then either your healers are doing their job very well and have end game gear, or they rely on other's buffs to be more successful, or the MT is so well outfitted as to need less healing, or a combination of all three. Your raid setup will dictate how you must use your AA points, so feel free disagree if your healers need the extra help and you need the extra 16 sec charm (that doesn't work on Epics) and the bump in Subjugation or Focus. If your healers do their job and your DPS knows how to control their agro, then coercive healing and thoughtsnap are all you need to improve suvivability and manage the occasional agro loss. The rest of the AA points would be most beneficial in helping to transfer hate to the MT (Chain Stunning and DPS) since we must do this now and burning down the mob. I'm like the rest of you, I think Coercers belong in the MT group and if we cant show our worth through all these changes we will be demoted to another group (stick me in a group of healers then I'll consider spec'ing WIS).

[Lleinen]

<p>A lot of long posts here, skimmed through a lot and Ill say Im going to keep my current setup. At the moment I am spec'd AGI/INT and doubt I will spec out.  If you can get yourself a necro orb from the x2 in forsaken city and a cloak from the sage in MMC (both easily 1 groupable so I dont wanna hear it) then you shouldnt have power problems even when you are mana flowing everyone. All coercers, imo, should be spec'd down the mana line with mana flow / transfer / gorging / channel / manaward From there its either thoughtsnap line (this is what I have atm, may spec to coercive healing) or Coercive Healing... But yah, AGI/INT is good for DPS and if your doing good dmg and a lot of power drains on mobs you should be getting a nice amount of hate!</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Smiddy@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>If the coercive healing isn't enough for your healers to keep the MT up then get new healers. ... I don't see how a CHANCE to help a healer land a Crit Heal helps us generate hate. ... what encounters are you having a hard time "locking down" spec'd AGI/INT? And how does adding the WIS line make these encounters possible? ... or they rely on other's buffs to be more successful ... stick me in a group of healers then I'll consider spec'ing WIS </blockquote> I'd just like to ask what exactly do you think the WIS line does? I'm dead serious. STAMINA line has the Heal Crit chance. STA-MIN-A. Wisdom line has +Subjugation. Which means LANDING your stuns, power drains, etc, against lvl 74 mobs the first time, as opposed to the 3rd or 4th time. I think even with 40 or so subjugation from gear I'd STILL want the Wisdom line just so that my stuns and such DID land. This is what people are saying... Wisdom line = Landing Aggro Generating Spells, Stamina line = Aggro Control and some minor utility group buffs. Hence why those two lines would be good to spend points on over straight up damage. The point being that it is HARD to consistantly, and quickly land your control spells in a non-raid situation in places with high resists and high levels. And in raid situations, they are some of the best forms of aggro generating spells. Thoughsnap line + Wis line = Aggro generation too

[Vydian]

As I mentioned in a previous post (2 actually), I only have the WIS line because my gear can't make up the skill and resist differences that I feel are necessary for the way *I* play. When I run unrest, nizara, CMM, I like to be able to control stuff the first time, not after 3 or 4 and the group is half dead. If ALL you do is raid, never run the hard stuff, and don't need to mez on raids or you have illusionists mezzing, by all means don't worry about the WIS line so much. It really is there to fill in some gaps and provide one kinda nifty trick aggro trick. And I really hope there aren't any coercers that consider Hypnosis in it's current state, it really is trash <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But STA is about making the raid better. Could the raid work without it? Sure. It could also work without the lackluster 1.2k DPS we have to basically build for. The argument people are using to keep their *full* DPS specs due to the upcoming changes doesn't make any sense. STA gives 3 ways to help manage hate, a single target flat reducer that is over 1k with the 4pts req for the rest of the line, a small group wide dehate (click it off youself after the changes though), and a full blown knock someone down 2 hate positions. Instead of trying to completely generate more hate than everyone else, why not manipulate the hate list in a more controlled fashion? Preemptively knocking that warlock down 2 hate positions when I KNOW they will pull aggro is better than trying to throw all my spells at the mob and hope for the best.. STA is only 22 pts of the 49 we can play with in the KoS tree (yes, I know we get 50, but mana flow is 1). The other 27 can be used to do whatever and if I didn't value my lockdown abilities, they would be going to improve my DPS.

[Rarlin]

<cite>Vydian wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I mentioned in a previous post (2 actually), I only have the WIS line because my gear can't make up the skill and resist differences that I feel are necessary for the way *I* play. When I run unrest, nizara, CMM, I like to be able to control stuff the first time, not after 3 or 4 and the group is half dead. If ALL you do is raid, never run the hard stuff, and don't need to mez on raids or you have illusionists mezzing, by all means don't worry about the WIS line so much. It really is there to fill in some gaps and provide one kinda nifty trick aggro trick. And I really hope there aren't any coercers that consider Hypnosis in it's current state, it really is trash <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But STA is about making the raid better. Could the raid work without it? Sure. It could also work without the lackluster 1.2k DPS we have to basically build for. The argument people are using to keep their *full* DPS specs due to the upcoming changes doesn't make any sense. STA gives 3 ways to help manage hate, a single target flat reducer that is over 1k with the 4pts req for the rest of the line, a small group wide dehate (click it off youself after the changes though), and a full blown knock someone down 2 hate positions. Instead of trying to completely generate more hate than everyone else, why not manipulate the hate list in a more controlled fashion? Preemptively knocking that warlock down 2 hate positions when I KNOW they will pull aggro is better than trying to throw all my spells at the mob and hope for the best.. STA is only 22 pts of the 49 we can play with in the KoS tree (yes, I know we get 50, but mana flow is 1). The other 27 can be used to do whatever and if I didn't value my lockdown abilities, they would be going to improve my DPS. </blockquote><p> I'm with you and agree 100% with this post.  If you want DPS, cool!  Go with what makes you happy!  </p><p>There are multiple ways to look at this and different ways to spec.  The goal of AAs were to make us customize without having a "must have" line.  Judging by the posts in this thread, they have accomplished their goal.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Controlor]

<cite>Vydian wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I mentioned in a previous post (2 actually), <b>I only have the WIS line because my gear can't make up the skill and resist differences that I feel are necessary for the way *I* play.</b> When I run unrest, nizara, CMM, I like to be able to control stuff the first time, not after 3 or 4 and the group is half dead. <b> If ALL you do is raid, never run the hard stuff, and don't need to mez on raids or you have illusionists mezzing, by all means don't worry about the WIS line so much. It really is there to fill in some gaps </b>and provide one kinda nifty trick aggro trick. And I really hope there aren't any coercers that consider Hypnosis in it's current state, it really is trash <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <b> But STA is about making the raid better.</b> Could the raid work without it? Sure. It could also work without the lackluster 1.2k DPS we have to basically build for. The argument people are using to keep their *full* DPS specs due to the upcoming changes doesn't make any sense. STA gives 3 ways to help manage hate, a single target flat reducer that is over 1k with the 4pts req for the rest of the line, a small group wide dehate (click it off youself after the changes though), and a full blown knock someone down 2 hate positions. Instead of trying to completely generate more hate than everyone else, why not manipulate the hate list in a more controlled fashion? Preemptively knocking that warlock down 2 hate positions when I KNOW they will pull aggro is better than trying to throw all my spells at the mob and hope for the best.. STA is only 22 pts of the 49 we can play with in the KoS tree (yes, I know we get 50, but mana flow is 1). T<b>he other 27 can be used to do whatever and if I didn't value my lockdown abilities, they would be going to improve my DPS. </b> </blockquote>QFE specially bolded spots. This was why when replying with the OP i had said for coercer (Illys are different specs cause generally not in a group with multi healers) was to go Agi / Sta. BUT i had stipulated that in order to do so you NEED LOTS of +Subj gear. You Coercers are highly dependant on your subj especially for soloing / grouping. If all you do is raid subj isnt as needed. But the OP also likes to group so Subj is needed. If a coercer that constantly solo's/groups (and runs places like CMM) cant get around 400 subj in just gear than they should prob sta Wis/Sta till they do. In raids relogate other tasks to illys if you have them. Normal spec for illy is Agi/Int or Agi/Wis. The agi/int is for pure dps illy (generally in mage group) but they just dps dont offer to much else (sept the passive way of buffs). Where a Agi/Wis illy is ment more for CC. (This is my current spec) and i am relogated to mezing in raids (we are defficient in certain classes so mezing is often needed).

[Lord Montague]

<cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are multiple ways to look at this and different ways to spec.  The goal of AAs were to make us customize without having a "must have" line.  Judging by the posts in this thread, they have accomplished their goal.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> And by some people's thinking, actually having other viable choices is somehow bad.  Hmm...that is funny, guess it shows that you can't make everyone happy though.</p><p>Smiddy@Butcherblock wrote: </p><blockquote>I'm like the rest of you, I think Coercers belong in the MT group and if we cant show our worth through all these changes we will be <b>demoted</b> to another group (stick me in a group of healers then I'll consider spec'ing WIS). </blockquote><p>How would being placed into a different group for various reasons be considered a "demotion?"  Aren't each of the groups important in their own rights for the raid to function as a whole?</p>

[Blumfield]

<p>All my coercer does is raid, and I like the Wis line for the Subj boost and the resists.  I've played around with a lot of subjugation numbers (from 360 up to about 430), and though I have no hard data to support it, I seem to get significantly fewer stun/stifle/mes/root resists right as I pass 400.  The wis line helps me achieve that without sacrificing other stats.  </p><p>Some people argue that our CC abilities are a waste on raids.  Nuh-uh.  Stuns and stifles are absolutely helpful on raids:  I often have to play a defiler and coercer simultaneously, so I can attest to how helpful they are (after a big AE I often queue wards, Alt+Tab to stun/stifle/daze, then flip back to the healer--buying that extra few seconds can make all the difference)</p><p>There will likely be a few ways to go about being effective in the MT group--the only necessity seems to be Thought Snap in the KoS tree.  </p>In any case, we won't know for sure how important coercer DPS is going to be until the changes go live.  So until I see raids wiping from MT aggro-loss, despite my having TS/SH, I'm sticking with my STA & WIS/AGI hybrid

[mcavellero]

<p>Aye it does suck because SoE forces you to choose between landing mezzes(dreamwearver) and being useful on a raid (heal crits, deaggro, -2 hate positions...etc) So basically if I buff the MT group and transfer good aggro I loose my usefulness in groups esp in Castle MM?   They gotta work on that...</p><p>I am going to respec so I loose dreamweaver's + subj bonus and go with AGI/STA...see how much of a difference that makes with landing mezzes in White castle -P(It did before prob still will).  There was one reply where he said have two sets of gear...good idea but finding subj gear is rough and it's always like +5, nothing compars to the +42 bonus you get with the WIS AA Line.</p><p> To test out how much aggro stuns generate I am going to have my tank friend taunt a mob and only use stuns until I rip it therefore giving me a close estimate to how much aggro my stun is equal to (taunts and dps 1 to 1).  SO we shall see.</p><p> TY for all the info/suggestions so far!!  Keep it coming!</p><p> Now... someone told me that they use some kind of potion that helps them land their mezzes...then they signed off?  Is this true, if so lemme know what it is!</p>

[ghobx]

<p>So Sta/Int is completely out of the question?  With the changes to perpetuality i would think the spell crits would make up for the times we lose the uber haste... but then again /shrug I'm new to this whole coercer thing, came here looking for some ideas on my up and comming one though.  I'll probably stick Sta/Int until I get more proc gear at least.</p><p>That being said I do play a tank as a main... I've done lots and lots of castle... and some nizara... and have never had a need to mez, even when we've gone with 1 healer in castle.  Im moderately/well geared, but then, that's what castle was designed for.  With raid debuffs I would tend to think that resists on stuns and the sort would be relatively low as well.  So it seems to me that, while some people like it, the Wis line isn't going to break you for anything or hurt your agro that much if you don't take it.</p><p>I could be wrong, but those are my 2cp.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Spike damage is where our crowd control is needed. Spike damage happens from multi-mob encounters. Debuffs are mostly single target (the biggest ones are), so landing your crowd control on the multi-mob encounter becomes more and more difficult. You want it to land NOW, not in three tries, or after they've decided to debuff the 2nd or 3rd mob coming in. Your MT rarely has that luxury. Regardless, Agi is not a bad path for MT Coercer. It covers lack of landing spells with faster casting of them. It might not be a wash, but Agi at least makes up for it a little. Int line ONLY gives crits and damage increase really.. so MT Coercer, aggro control, Agi probably ends up being a better choice. If you AREN'T in the MT group... then Agi/Int may provide more for the raid (if you don't have aggro issues), or Sta/Int if you do.. since pure damage is all you are looking at needing, not aggro building.

[Dravendar]

My understanding is that prior to the update, having coercer and dirge hates stack resulted in exceeding the cap on static hate.  Lowering our static hate buff allowed the 2 classes to reach the cap and not 'waste' extra points.  We (as in MT group) is actually getting a boost in hate from whatever we are able to generate.  Think of our hate transfer as a bonus from the previous update.  The flipside to this scenario is that scout aggro management just got a bit tougher which was an attempt by SoE to balance out the differences yet still keep things the same.  Overall hate is same in that the MT group and scouts both generate more aggro.   Only now, our jobs and the scouts skill level / raid setup just became a bit more influential on the outcome of the hate list. As to AA specs, I'm staying at: AGI for perpetuality STA for the heal crits INT down 1 line for the ~800 mental debuff Going further down STA line is useless IMO since if the rest of the MT group gets aggro (including yourself), that means that the rest of the raid is half-asleep.  You have other issues than AA specs to worry about if that is the case.  Instead of the more popular AGI/INT spec, I chose this build to have the best mix of offensive and defensive strengths.  This along with Thoughtsnap and Manaward and you are pretty well suited for any situation.  I have subjugation gear and swap them out with my dps proc set depending on the fight so WIS is not even an option for me.  You should still be able to parse fairly well (and generate a good deal of hate) if you can integrate the mental debuff with dispatch and perpetuality V.  Just some food for thought.

[Blumfield]

I've asked this before (and maybe it's been answered but I missed it), but does anyone know whether our group heal crit AA stacks with healer heal crit AA, and if so, if there's a cap?  That should influence people's MT AA specs, I would think.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

The cap is 100% chance. Basically.. it happens "all the time". Only Haste and DPS have different caps because they are <i>increasing</i> your amounts by their %. Basically.. the difference is Haste and DPS give +% not just a % chance to happen. And yes, my wife and I use a UI that shows your % scores on all your things, including heal crits. With her Warden's AA's and my AA she was showing more than 30% heal crits, which is very nice indeed.

[Lee Hor]

I keep swapping between Agi/Wis and Wis/Int Cant seem to make my mind up on what setup I prefur... In the coercer tree im all over the place Efficiency line to Though Snap,5 Enhance Charm, 5 mana flow, 3 Enhance Ease, 5 in Enhance Gorging Thoughts, 5 Enhance Cataclysmic Mind and 6 in Enhance Auspex A mess I tell Ya! lol

[Dravendar]

Lee Horus wrote: <blockquote>I keep swapping between Agi/Wis and Wis/Int Cant seem to make my mind up on what setup I prefur... In the coercer tree im all over the place Efficiency line to Though Snap,5 Enhance Charm, 5 mana flow, 3 Enhance Ease, 5 in Enhance Gorging Thoughts, 5 Enhance Cataclysmic Mind and 6 in Enhance Auspex A mess I tell Ya! lol</blockquote> This is a result of you not learning what your role is in whatever style of play that you adopt.  Attributable to both you and your raid leader. Your EOF tree is justifiable (though I don't agree with it) but taking wisdom for the KOS tree is unforgivable...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Depending on your raid leader, choose either AGI/INT or AGI/STA (or optionally my build) and Thoughtsnap/Manaward or Healing/Thoughtsnap combo.  You need to focus on where your guild stands, what your raid leader expects you to do and what kind of encounters you are facing.  They all will affect your AA build. 

[Rarlin]

<p>I seem to almost exculsively raid with my Coercer and I've still done STA/WIS lines.</p><p> Call me a [Removed for Content], that's fine.  Say it's useless, that's fine. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>I'm mostly in a tank group so I like STA.</p><p>I spend a lot of times during fights doing my stuns and stifles, so I chose WIS (although I backed away from finishing the line and spending the 2 points in more resists).</p><p>In my opinion if I wanted to raise my DPS, I'd betray to illusionist, not respec my Coercer.  I love being a utility class and will gladly sacrifice DPS for more utility.</p><p>Please don't take this the wrong way gang, but if DPS is all that's important to your Coercer and you're not in the MT group, then why not betray and get it?  I know that a lot already have (Illusionists seem to be the class of the month for this expansion; Brigands last expansion).</p><p>Do I kill people using Sever Hate on raids... yep!  On purpose... you bet!</p><p>Anyway, just wanted to throw out to those coming up through the ranks that there really are viable reasons to go down other lines (I personally enjoy killing off someone that I know is close to the top of the hatelist... so when the mouth off in vent... BAM!).  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>