EoF aa change of monk on test [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Couching

07-20-2007, 03:08 PM

<ul><li>Enhance: Beckon: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Stare: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank.</li></ul> It's always good to reduce resistiability on taunt <ul><li>Alternate: Mongoose Stance: Increased detaunt effectiveness.</li></ul> It needs to be workingl on group wide rather on monk only since we don't have enough dps to grab aggro. Still a waste imo. <ul><li>Enhance: Dragonbreath: Reduced reuse speed bonus from 5 to 4 seconds per rank (but reuse speed of original ability was improved).</li></ul> Better than nothing. Though, the damage is still too low for a 75 sec(55sec with 5 aa) CA. The damage should be increased more since it is a lv65 ancient spell. Comparing to bruiser, their knockout combo damage is really nice. <ul><li>Evade - Renamed Evade Check: Non-fighters in your group have their hate reduced with the encounter. If Dragon Stance is not active, your hate is also reduced with your encounter.</li></ul> It's nice but not useful since 793-970 deaggro every 20 sec is really not enough. I would suggest to change it as a group buff. Every non-fighter group member getd same deaggro when our mongoose stance fires. <ul><li>Enhance: Will of the Void I: Reduced cost to 2 points instead of 3.</li></ul> It's good. <ul><li>Enhance: Stone Stance: Increased spell mitigation bonus from 4% to 6% per rank. Also improves reuse speed by 6 seconds per rank.</li></ul> Still useless since we can't hold aggro with only taunt. This skill is still useless. <ul><li>Enhance: Outward Calm: Also increases duration by 3 seconds per rank.</li></ul> It's good. <ul><li>Enhance: Tsunami: Increased reuse speed bonus from 7 to 8 seconds per rank.</li></ul> It's good. <ul><li>Master's Evasion - Renamed Superior Riposte: Ripostes the next attack or reflects the next spell. Increased duration by 5 seconds.</li></ul> It's good for longer duration. It looks like the aoe immunity is removed. It's a nerf. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <ul><li>Enhance Jabs: Instead of 20% casting speed bonus per rank, it improves both casting and recovery speed by 15% per rank. </li></ul> It's good. We can see the track that monk is moving to utility role in raids, especially hate control. It's a good idea but decreasing group hate 793-970 every 20 sec is by far not enough. The average deaggro on every group member is about 45dps in a minute. Comparing to 2.5k-3k+ dpsers who need help on deaggro, deaggro 45 dps per minute in pretty useless. The idea of hate controller is nice but Devs need to change Evade to group buff and let every non-fighter group member gets deaggro from our Mongoose stance. Otherwise, 2500 hate reduce in every minute is useless for dspers who did 120000 to 180000 per minute. Overall, I am positive on the LU37 on monk EoF aa. Edit: Changed my opinion of Evasion.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-20-2007, 03:30 PM

Don't forget: Monk<ul><li>Increased the reuse speed of Dragonbreath from 90 to 75 seconds and increased the damage slightly.</li></ul> So depending on what they mean by "slightly", it may have gained a larger increase than what you can see from just in the notes. And with AA's, your Dragonbreath can be used 3 times to our once with Knockout Combo. Hard to tell how that will play out really... you'd have to learn to use it as much as possible to see what kind of benefit it gives on parses compared to KC. They've snuck back in the aggro changes on this patch too, so adding a Group dehate to Monks was obviously a step towards Figher utility. A small step, but it's there.

Taiken

07-20-2007, 04:28 PM

It's a step in the right direction... But I don't see any significant changes here. Our avoidance still sucks.. Our DPS is a little higher, but we still don't have near as much utility to get us into a raid... Which is of course the aim here.. We want to be needed, not dead weight..

Morrolan V

07-20-2007, 05:52 PM

OK - these are all steps in the right direction. Even if this doesn't fix everything all at once, at least there is acknowledgment from the Devs that some changes need to be made.What they are clearly doing is giving us some hate management utility that other fighters lack.The Evade Check AA is the heart of this. Reading the description, it appears that it will work like this: <ol><li>If dragon stance is active, it reduces all non-fighter hate in the group, but not the Monk's. Combine this with the minor enhancements to our taunt AAs and it means a meaningful boost in aggro control when we are tanking.</li><li>If dragon stance is not active, it reduces all non-fighter hate in the group (including the Monk's). Now, combine this with the reduced effectiveness of ALL scout and caster detaunt/hate transfer abilities. What this means is that on raids, there will be less hate going to the MT, the scouts and mages in DPS groups will have less ability to manage their own hate, and troubadour hate reduction will be less effective. This will tend to bring effective Tier 1 and 2 DPS on raids down somewhat (closer to what we can do) and will mean that raids will need to look hard for hate management. SoE clearly intends for us to have an additional role as an important source of aggro reduction in DPS groups. Given that our only existing group buff (swift calm) is already beneficial to melee DPS, this is a step in the right direction. So, yes, the overall amount is relatively low, but it helps. We won't really know until we test it out, but it might mean that you would want a monk in your melee DPS group rather than a second assassin, ranger or swash, as we will do our upper-middle DPS but also increase the safe DPS abilities of the existing group members enough to close the gap.</li></ol>Let's not immediately react negatively to this as "too little, too late." It is VERY good that we are getting the right kind of attention, and, once all the changes here get fully digested, it may prove to give us an important role.

Kainsei

07-20-2007, 07:49 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><ul><li>Master's Evasion - Renamed Superior Riposte: Ripostes the next attack or reflects the next spell. Increased duration by 5 seconds.</li></ul> It's good for longer duration. Also, I was wondering we can reflect AoE to epic named or not? If it is, it would be a must get aa for raid monks. </blockquote>It doesn't look good if you ask me, there's no mention of aoe evasion, it says "cast on you"... <img src="http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/Kain973/superiorriposte.jpg" border="0"> Picture taken from <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/monks/8602-tu-37-us.html#post194122" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here.</a>

Gasheron

07-20-2007, 08:12 PM

reflect the next profession spell?

abdcefg

07-20-2007, 08:41 PM

Lanari@Storms wrote: <blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><ul><li>Master's Evasion - Renamed Superior Riposte: Ripostes the next attack or reflects the next spell. Increased duration by 5 seconds.</li></ul> It's good for longer duration. Also, I was wondering we can reflect AoE to epic named or not? If it is, it would be a must get aa for raid monks. </blockquote>It doesn't look good if you ask me, there's no mention of aoe evasion, it says "cast on you"... <img src="http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/Kain973/superiorriposte.jpg" border="0"> Picture taken from <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/monks/8602-tu-37-us.html#post194122" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here.</a> </blockquote>Compairing that screenshot with how masters evasion works now i'd say no thanks. The ability to immune yourself from annoying AE's like soul paralysis/ blanket of eternal night (to name a couple) is a god send, changing it to reflect the next 'proffesion' spell is hardly a fair trade for turning an auto dodge into an auto riposte. All i see is while raiding im now gonna suffer a bit more dmg and any status ailments that come from the extra ae's i wont be avoiding and in return i get to reflect the occasinal crappy nuke or debuff from some weak heroic while soloing/grp'ing.I think even learning exactly what could/not be reflected and timing its use while tanking in encounters i fail to see any kind of improvment here when eventually we find something thats really worth reflecting and then getting mobs spells changed so it don't work any longer.....Maybe keep the 10s AE immune and change dodge to riposte.

Bewts

07-20-2007, 11:46 PM

someone care to explain reflection to those of us not familiar with it? Are there any drawbacks, does it reflect 100% of the damage the mob would to back on itself or does it reflect what a PC would do if using that skill?I could see the effectiveness of an extra 2-5k damage for no power if you reflect a profession skill as a significant bump to hate generation. Of course, predicting that is another thing entirely. But in either case, being able to riposte or parry the next incoming attack is significant on its own for anyone interested in tanking. I still think the buff should be 'until cancelled' and auto refreshing every minute.Granted, as a non tank the change from AE immunity to reflection if you are the target is a nerf. We did ask for help in the tanking category though so I suppose we couldn't have both worlds (although I think we should!)

Taiken

07-21-2007, 02:07 AM

So let me see if I get this right... We get to evade the next attack?.. How is that such a BIG improvement?.. Seems pretty useless.. Considering mobs can duel wield.. And if they don't, the next few seconds holds a death blow that will be sure to hit you.. The only time you would need this is if you're the only one alive, no healer, soloing a mob with your HP in the absolute red area and the mob is about to die.. I notice the word reflect**... In Final Fantasy 8 this spell acts like a shield that mirrors the next spell that hits you. In Final Fantasy if the mob casted a spell on you, it bounced off you and hit them right back... IN EQ2, they make it so a melee attack can cancel the reflect ability, so don't expect to be tanking and using this spell to reflect the spells, cuz a melee attack will cancel it.. But knowing EQ2, I freaking doubt that reflect means the same thing as it does in final fantasy.... *scratches head*

MadLordOfMilk

07-21-2007, 02:16 AM

<cite>Taiken wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me see if I get this right... We get to evade the next attack?.. How is that such a BIG improvement?.. Seems pretty useless.. Considering mobs can duel wield.. And if they don't, the next few seconds holds a death blow that will be sure to hit you.. The only time you would need this is if you're the only one alive, no healer, soloing a mob with your HP in the absolute red area and the mob is about to die.. I notice the word reflect**... In Final Fantasy 8 this spell acts like a shield that mirrors the next spell that hits you. In Final Fantasy if the mob casted a spell on you, it bounced off you and hit them right back... IN EQ2, they make it so a melee attack can cancel the reflect ability, so don't expect to be tanking and using this spell to reflect the spells, cuz a melee attack will cancel it.. But knowing EQ2, I freaking doubt that reflect means the same thing as it does in final fantasy.... *scratches head*</blockquote>Evade is different from Riposte. Evade means you dodge the attack. Riposte means the mob takes damage from the attack instead of you. Ripostes kick [Removed for Content], especially considering the low chance as-is... an extra one every min is probably doubling our total ripostes <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bewts

07-21-2007, 04:58 AM

After thinking about it a bit, Evade in a group form becomes a second rate group taunt. You taunt for 1k with Challenge, then drop Evade for another 1k and in theory you just boosted your aggro versus the mob by 2k compared to anyone else in your group. Granted this is meaningless in a raid where you need to taunt the entire encounter to you, not away from your group.Thats the only benefit to Evade right now that I can see. I definitely feel that the nerfs to the dps class de-aggro skills does not add up to the increase of Evade to a group version. We need Evade to be kicked up a notch to equal the lost de-aggro that people will be experiencing.I second couching's idea on Evade. Allowing Evade Check (the new name) to work on everyone but you while in Dragon Stance is wonderful - taking it a step further is definitely changing Mongoose Stance to a group de-aggro that the monk procs. Again, this does little to help being an offtank, but solidifies a Monk spot in a dps group that is going to see changes and lowering of their own de-aggro skills.The only change you EVER have to make to change Stone Stance is to change it to ANYTHING else but a Stun. Anything else you do to that ability is a waste of everyones time until that stun goes away, Period.Adjust Master's Evasion to be a permanent 'until cancelled' buff that refreshes every minute. Use up a concentration slot to keep it up permanently. The changes to this ability are silly considering that Monks are going more towards utility. The loss of the AoE immunity for a reflection but ONLY if you are the target makes this a heroic content AA only. Zero utility on raids unless you find yourself MTing for a few seconds until you die after Tsunami fades. The dual setup it currently has (dodge next attack or avoid next AE unless direct) serves both the tanking and the non-tanking Monk. Adding an extra 5 seconds is good - but the nerf is entirely pointless and unneeded.Dragonbreath is a great skill if you hit all 8 (I think its <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> targets with it. Then you see 10k+ in 8 seconds worth of time. Thats pretty solid. I definitely think Dragonbreath should be reworked to do 10k damage spread evenly amongst up to 8 targets in 8 seconds. That way, if you hit 8 targets, each should take 139 dmg / sec. IF you hit only 1 target, it should take 1.1k damage per second.I'd also apply that same theory to Cresent Strike with its 3 second cast time that makes you lose 3+ rounds of auto attacks. At Master 1, it does around 880 damage per target (8 of them). Spread amongst those 8 targets, thats a tad over 7k damage. Again, spread the damage equally amongst the targets you hit within the radius. If its one, then you spent 3 seconds hitting 1 target for 7k damage. If its 8, then you hit each for around 880 damage. Fair shake for everyone.

abdcefg

07-21-2007, 06:14 AM

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote>Adjust Master's Evasion to be a permanent 'until cancelled' buff that refreshes every minute. Use up a concentration slot to keep it up permanently. The changes to this ability are silly considering that Monks are going more towards utility. The loss of the AoE immunity for a reflection but ONLY if you are the target makes this a heroic content AA only. Zero utility on raids unless you find yourself MTing for a few seconds until you die after Tsunami fades. The dual setup it currently has (dodge next attack or avoid next AE unless direct) serves both the tanking and the non-tanking Monk. </blockquote>I like the sound of this but would still pefer it in its current form, for me it has a situational use and I'd prefer to be choosing myself when it takes effect especially as it is constant AE immunity until it fades or u hit a CA early. This is really handy on a mob casting more than one AE whith recast timess that allow them to overlap every few casts. It is nice seeing some effort being made into making the class a more feasable raid choice but I really wish they would look at whats not really working for us instead of changing things that work fine.

abdcefg

07-21-2007, 06:19 AM

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dragonbreath is a great skill if you hit all 8 (I think its <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> targets with it. Then you see 10k+ in 8 seconds worth of time. Thats pretty solid. I definitely think Dragonbreath should be reworked to do 10k damage spread evenly amongst up to 8 targets in 8 seconds. That way, if you hit 8 targets, each should take 139 dmg / sec. IF you hit only 1 target, it should take 1.1k damage per second.I'd also apply that same theory to Cresent Strike with its 3 second cast time that makes you lose 3+ rounds of auto attacks. At Master 1, it does around 880 damage per target (8 of them). Spread amongst those 8 targets, thats a tad over 7k damage. Again, spread the damage equally amongst the targets you hit within the radius. If its one, then you spent 3 seconds hitting 1 target for 7k damage. If its 8, then you hit each for around 880 damage. Fair shake for everyone.</blockquote>I REALLY hope they read that, brilliant idea considering how weak our AE's actually are unless like u say, they are hitting the max amount of targets.

Bewts

07-22-2007, 12:43 AM

prelim numbers here, but this is what some of the interesting values worked out to be while I played with Excel at work:Using Evade but in its group form every 20 seconds lowers your groups cumulitive DPS (or hate generation as they are mostly synonymous) by 222-291Over 60 seconds, you lower the hate of the entire group by 13320 to 17460.Thats 2220 to 2910 hate per person per minuteIn smaller numbers (and it starts getting ugly here) that means each person, if Evade is used every 20 seconds does 37-48.5 less HPS (Hate per second).Considering that Hate = DPS plus a bunch of other modifiers but comparing HPS to DPS is fairly accurate on what information we have. One could say that Evade equates to 37-48 less DPS per person in the group. Ouch.Now, if you have Tranquil Vision M1 and 5 AA into its hate transfer you can decrease the hate generated per second by a non-fighter by 14% to 10%. The lower your DPS, the more significantly you decrease their hate generation. From the numbers (and I can provide them if needed) the majority of people who do anywhere from 1200 to 2200 DPS will see 11% or 12% less hate generation. This value directly coincides with the MAJORITY of hate transfers that are being adjusted.Now, in a raid the following values seem significantly dismal by individual:On the low end of DPS (1k) Evade saves per person 5% hate generation. On the high end of DPS (2.4k plus) Evade saves per person 2% hate generation.Now on the bright side of that, collectively as a group you see some interesting numbers:If a group does 2k DPS collectively, you save the group 11-15% hate generation2.5k DPS, 9-12%3k DPS, 7-10%3.5K DPS, 6-8%4k+ DPS, 4-6%It appears that Evade because of its set values, shows a diminishing return as your DPS as a group or an individual increases.Another tidbit:In a 2 minute fight, your group collectively generates almost 35k less hate if you used Evade all 6 times.----------BREAK----------I remember someone mentioning making Mongoose Stance a group proc. Sounded interesting, so doing some more work in Excel I found that in order to equate Mongoose stance to what Evade is being changed to you'd have to have Mongoose stance proc 5 times a minute per person for 450 de-aggro a proc. That would equate to the values that Evade would give a group right now in de-aggro. That would meet the low end of Evade's de-aggro values. If you bump the value of Mongoose stance up to 575 per proc at 5 procs per minute per all 6 group members, you would reach the maximum return Evade in group form would give.----------BREAK---------In my opinion, I think Evade is very significant. Do I think it makes Monks awesome at de-aggro? Nope. It sure gives us a niche albeit a small one, but hopefully pliable enough to sneak into a raid and group with an Assassin who dies from over aggro. I wouldn't mind seeing Evade in group form bump up to around 1200-1500 in de-aggro per cast. That would equate it to the hate value of Challenge M2 with 5 AA from the EoF line - which makes it our second group taunt in a assbackwards sort of way. Anything higher than 1500 de-aggro would make it game breaking in heroic content when you couple it with Challenge M2 (thats 3k hate in a matter of seconds).Regards,Sanctum

miliskel

07-22-2007, 06:07 AM

looks like monks "aggro venting" wil be needed with the aggro changes however, what would u do for the mages who actually get hit hard with this update - average mage group atm illusionist troubador fury wizard warlock paladin (sigil , amends etc) or another mage who gets kicked for a monk to aggro vent..guessing the pally but that will pretty much mean sigil every fight ...

Bewts

07-22-2007, 11:40 PM

Viewed in a cumulative value, the de-aggro monks bring to the group is mediocre if you aren't a pessimist.Individually, the de-aggro is nearly insignificant for any high DPS class and is mediocre for the one person who gets Tranquil Vision with a hate syphon on it.The numbers are relatively small as you scale up in DPS numbers as well as the number is static and not a percentage. This hurts high DPS classes like mages significantly.The only real significance of Evade becoming a group de-aggro is in heroic content where it acts like a reverse group taunt, something we didn't desperately need but definitely addresses our hate management for multi mob encounters. It does nothing for managing AE aggro in a raid as a second tank.As for the question above me for mage DPS groups.... I think that unless Amends gets added to the hate transfer nerfs, it will out do Tranquil Vision plus Evade for one person. Collectively as a group, I'm really not sure that Evade out does Sigil. The real concern is that Monks being put into a mage DPS group entirely removes the monk from melee DPS groups and possibly makes us a ghetto paladin in that group. It also removes the need for a group haste buff.I do think that a monk in a melee DPS group would help the aggro management of the higher dps scouts who are seeing changes to their hate transfers and aggro management. I don't think scouts are getting hard enough to make the monk a 'must have' in those groups either. Time will tell of course.

Zabjade

07-23-2007, 12:57 AM

Hmmm................ How much would the value change in a raid group if we add a second monk to the highest magic-DPS pushers?

Amara Peacegiver

07-23-2007, 01:22 PM

I'm sure they certainly wouldn't want to create a situation where you would need just 1 monk on a raid. They would want to set it up so multiple monks could have a purpose on a raid and have some desireability. People seem to have this mindset that anything given to monks needs to be so awesome that it only takes one monk with said ability to fill the role on the raid. I doubt SOE will ever give us that but you never know. AT least they have started looking at it.

Nokrahs

07-23-2007, 07:20 PM

*** EDIT *** removed my opinion since I got some stuff wrong in the first place such as KoS/EoF AA pts flexibility. for the Evade Skill...ahh well, great stuff but I would prefer it as a spell/ca not as a end AA skill of a pretty much useless line in the EoF tree. cheers, Nok

Bewts

07-24-2007, 12:47 AM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm................ How much would the value change in a raid group if we add a second monk to the highest magic-DPS pushers?</blockquote> Two monks with TV spec for hate syphon on a warlock and wizard would give each of those major DPS classes 165 to 325 less hate PER SECOND. 325 is the top end of someone who parses 2.5k, 165 is for the AFK wizard who halfway through the fight drops a few of their big hitters and only does 1k dps.Thats just from the de-aggro two monks would bring combining Tranquil Vision with AA enhancements and both monks drop their Evade every 20 seconds. Pretty much a 2.5k dps would equate to 2.1kish worth of hate before you add in anything else.

Xanthar

07-27-2007, 11:38 AM

The number is so low because it is figured raid wide and not group wide. Personally, I'd rather see a much higher number (3x or 4x) and have it only affect a group. That would make bringing more Monks to raid viable and give the big hitters better aggro control. Making it a raid spell is what's killing it. It needs to work well if you bring one Monk or three... making it better but only group wide, I believe, is the answer.I'm looking forward to seeing how all these changes pan out. I still think we need something more. It will be nice to deaggro a group or raid, but at the proposed numbers it's far too little too late. Guilds have already found ways to manage aggro without a global deaggro class. We need something that will make the Raid Leader say "we need a Monk." My vote is reduce Chi's timer to about 5-7 minutes. This way we can drop it on names as they appear and offer some burst DPS when needed. They also need to drop the weapon restriction in the STR line. They can't seriously think there is a sinlge raid Monk with Fabled weapons that would unequip while fighting Epic mobs.

Morrolan V

07-27-2007, 06:27 PM

Xanthar@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Guilds have already found ways to manage aggro without a global deaggro class. We need something that will make the Raid Leader say "we need a Monk." My vote is reduce Chi's timer to about 5-7 minutes. This way we can drop it on names as they appear and offer some burst DPS when needed. They also need to drop the weapon restriction in the STR line. They can't seriously think there is a sinlge raid Monk with Fabled weapons that would unequip while fighting Epic mobs.</blockquote><ol><li>Don't forget that they are nerfing the traditional methods of aggro management across the board as well.</li><li>As to Chi, we can already drop pretty good burst DPS with Crane Flock. (Especially if it is lined up with other classes' buffs - i.e. Cacophony.)</li><li>I agree completely about the STR line. It's absolutely useless at the high end as it stands. Reduce the effects and make them weapon independent. If folks want the unarmed look, buy fistwraps.</li></ol>

Xanthar

07-27-2007, 07:03 PM

Oh yeah, I'd LOVE to get in a group in raid with a Dirge. But, the raid leader can use the Dirge to up a scout's DPS the same percentage as mine, which means a much higher number. The truth is, a Monk will never a see a Dirge in their group on raid until you have 3 Dirges. Of all the DPS classes, a Monk is about the lowest on the totm pole (and I'm not sure DPS class suits them anymore).Crane Flock is one that confuses me a bit. I get confused with the terminology that SoE uses in it's descriptions. It says "Caster will double attack on 100% of melee attacks." Some tell me it means auto attacks only, while others say it's anthing that does "melee damage" including Combat Arts. Can you enlighten me? If it's only speaking of auto attacks doubling, it doesn't seem very insignificant. Even if it is all melee attacks doubling, the rest of the line is worthless to me.

Couching

07-27-2007, 07:10 PM

Exactly, the first dirge with group with MT. The 2nd dirge will group OT. Unless you are OT, otheriwse, it didn't make any sense to group a monk in OT group.

Bladewind

07-27-2007, 07:28 PM

Xanthar@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Oh yeah, I'd LOVE to get in a group in raid with a Dirge. But, the raid leader can use the Dirge to up a scout's DPS the same percentage as mine, which means a much higher number. The truth is, a Monk will never a see a Dirge in their group on raid until you have 3 Dirges. Of all the DPS classes, a Monk is about the lowest on the totm pole (and I'm not sure DPS class suits them anymore).Crane Flock is one that confuses me a bit. I get confused with the terminology that SoE uses in it's descriptions. It says "Caster will double attack on 100% of melee attacks." Some tell me it means auto attacks only, while others say it's anthing that does "melee damage" including Combat Arts. Can you enlighten me? If it's only speaking of auto attacks doubling, it doesn't seem very insignificant. Even if it is all melee attacks doubling, the rest of the line is worthless to me.</blockquote> It does 100% double and multi-attack (up to 4 mobs) for the duration. This means that you do double auto attacks to your primary target and simultaneously hit up to three other targets with double attacks at the same time. So, single target fight, it gives you ~double auto attack damage for 16 seconds. Two targets = 4x damage, 3 targets = 6x damage, 4+ targets = 8x damage for the duration. I personally love it. Auto attack usually makes up 60-70% of my damage, so anything that makes it more effective is a good thing as far as I am concerned.I wish we had access to passive double attack and multi attack buffs like other fighters <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A sta-specced guard can get 62% double attack and 40% multi attack all the time. That's way better than 16 seconds of 100% to both every 3 minutes with zero bonus to either inbetween.

Bewts

07-27-2007, 11:28 PM

Just a bit off topic, but the question is in regards to Tranquil Vision with 5 AA into from the EoF line.As I read it, it states (at master 1)Causes 5% Threat Transfer to target when in combat - IF fighterTransfers 9% of targets current Threat to the caster - IF not fighterNow, I understand the first line, as you enter combat, 5% of the threat I generate will go to the target of the buff if its a fighter. The second line I question. Its not even remotely worded the same as the first line which is a CLEAR constant transfer of hate during combat. The second line says CURRENT threat. I emphasize the word current because it implies that each time I cast it, I will take 9% of the buff's target's threat at that exact moment. If that is the case, suppose you have a wizard who has just dumped 2k DPS the fights duration and is about to drop a manaburn. Say the wizard has done 100k damage so far, would casting Tranquil Vision on the wizard in theory drop the total hate the wizard has generated by 9% or nearly 10,000 hates worth of damage?The reason I ask, is that it is obviously clear from the wording that it is not a constant transfer but a one time transfer until you cast the buff again. If thats the case, you could constantly cast and recast TV on a high dps class to remove a butt load of hate. I don't think thats the case, but if anyone knows the ins and outs of how the 9% threat transfer works I would definitely like to be enlightened. Best answer would be a developer's answer, but I'll settle for anything right now.Regards,Sanctum

Morrolan V

07-28-2007, 04:26 PM

We have two dirges and we use them in MT and melee DPS groups.SoE is trying to give us a reason to be in the melee DPS group - as a decent source of DPS and an additional source of hate management.

Xanthar

07-28-2007, 07:54 PM

Yes, but currently Monk aren't in the melee DPS group.So Crane Flock doubles only only auto attack, and allows you to hit multiple targets. When raiding, it's infrequent we are dealing with multiple targets. Sometimes we do, but usually we are pounding down one, maybe 2, epic mobs. The way I had spec'd gave me better DPs over the long haul. I had Cane Sweep and Eagle Spin. I would spam Baton Flurry and use those additional 2 CAs to get better DPS. I see now I will get the abilitiy to respec back to that. If they lower the reuce timer for Chi I'd stay with it. But, the way it is now, I can only use it 7 or 8 times during the entire raid.

Cirth_Beer

07-31-2007, 12:45 PM

Looks like spell haste didnt make it live <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/game_updates_details.vm?locale=en&id=37" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...le=en&id=37</a>) <blockquote>Monk · Alternate: Mongoose Stance: can be cast on a raid ally. · Enhance: Beckon: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank. · Enhance: Stare: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank. · Alternate: Mongoose Stance: Increased detaunt effectiveness. · Enhance: Dragonbreath: Reduced reuse speed bonus from 5 to 4 seconds per rank (but reuse speed of original ability was improved). · Evade - Renamed Evade Check: Non-fighters in your group have their hate reduced with the encounter. If Dragon Stance is not active, your hate is also reduced with your encounter. · Enhance: Will of the Void I: Reduced cost to 2 points instead of 3. · Enhance: Stone Stance: Increased spell mitigation bonus from 4% to 6% per rank. Also improves reuse speed by 6 seconds per rank. · Enhance: Outward Calm: Also increases duration by 3 seconds per rank. · Enhance: Tsunami: Increased reuse speed bonus from 7 to 8 seconds per rank. · Master's Evasion - Renamed Superior Riposte: Ripostes the next attack or reflects the next spell. Increased duration by 5 seconds. · Enhance Jabs: Instead of 20% casting speed bonus per rank, it improves both casting and recovery speed by 15% per rank. </blockquote> But we got mangoose stance which we can cast on raid people ... and master evasion sucks now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (except if the reflect work on aoe ^^)

Couching

07-31-2007, 12:56 PM

It is. It's in the different paragraph in the update notes.

mr23sgte

07-31-2007, 12:58 PM

Monk - Swiftness: It also increases casting speed You beat me to it ....looks like no changes in AA's for me - i will just add 1point to something.

IronHydra

07-31-2007, 01:01 PM

Yup looks like monks are gonna still be [Removed for Content].... didn't really give them anything for DPS or Tanking. So now they just give haggard group bonuses... I want to tank something not reduce hate [Removed for Content]. Or give me DPS. But one skill is still certainly not fixed... stone stance still stuns you why did they not change this is makes no fuckign sence damnit they r [Removed for Content].... NOONE uses a skill thats going to stun you and make u take more damage anyways if you don't lose aggro which you most likly will

Couching

07-31-2007, 01:38 PM

What I am wondering is that once we cast our deaggro proc on raid ally, can we still cast our dragon stance on ourselves? If not, it's harder for us to get mobs on us in raid as off tank.PS: The haste of cast speeding is lowed to 13.1% <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />PS2: I have tested that both stances can't be on at same time. In other word, we will have problem as off tank if we cast deaggro stance on raid ally. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bladewind

07-31-2007, 02:35 PM

I respecced to check out the new deaggros. I have a few bugs to warn everyone about.As couching said, mongoose still shares a timer with storm, which is lame.. Also, I am only able to cast it upon myself. Even the description still reads self as the only possible target.<strike>Evade check never showed up on my hotbar or in my knowledge book. It is like the art just does not exist. </strike> Oops, found it <blush>Be wary of how you spend your points until these bugs get fixed :/

Bewts

07-31-2007, 05:22 PM

<cite>IronHydra wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yup looks like monks are gonna still be [I cannot control my vocabulary].... didn't really give them anything for DPS or Tanking. So now they just give haggard group bonuses... I want to tank something not reduce hate [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Or give me DPS. But one skill is still certainly not fixed... stone stance still stuns you why did they not change this is makes no [I cannot control my vocabulary] sence damnit they r [I cannot control my vocabulary].... NOONE uses a skill thats going to stun you and make u take more damage anyways if you don't lose aggro which you most likly will</blockquote> You do realize you can tank 99% of all content, don't you? You just can't tank the majority of epic content RELIABLY. I really don't think we are meant to tank epic content as monks. Perhaps a last ditch rescue + Tsunami to help the MT through a tough spot now and then or even peeling mobs one at a time off some lesser KoS encounter.In group formats, Monks have a significant advantage in tanking. Our new de-aggro is possibly un-resistable (Any way to confirm that?) which means we have an AE 'taunt' for around 700-900 thats unresistable - EVERY 20 seconds. Throw in Dragonstance, 9% Hate Syphon off Tranquil Vision and our two taunts: one single one group and we are pretty formidable for most heroic content.Also, for Stone Stance, if you are facing a particular situation where you are in a pinch you can dump de-aggro, group, single taunts, throw in rescue and pop stone stance. I Rarely lose aggro off that (especially with 9% hate syphon from Tranquil Vision) for the duration of the skill and popping our single target taunt when it refreshes. You can always go for the final skill in the Intelligence AA line for emergency mitigation, plus if you really want to, you can go Brells and there are two mitigation buffs there too. I know the lesser of the two mit buffs gives around 10% more mit to worn armor for 30 seconds. The stronger of the two is around 15 seconds in duration and gives you around 3.5k vs c/s/p plus a 30% group heal when it fades. I think when its all said and done, you can give yourself in emergencies somewhere around 8k extra mitigation plus 10% more from worn mit. Granted its short term but hey, thats only when Tsunami isn't up and you already used your Heal, right?As I said, heroic content we will be formidable. Epic, at best off tanking or peeling or once in a while rescue + Tsunami. I do think bringing a targetable de-aggro proc raidwide plus our own de-aggro for the group gives Monks a significant (although perhaps not MUST have) position in raids.Not the greatest of changes, but gives raids a reason to bring us along more often which is always a bonus in my book. I will say, I definitely wish there were a few boss epic encounters where Monks had a niche. I'm still of the line of thinking that each instanced raid should have one encounter that each fighter archetype would make much easier on the raid. One boss Brawlers would greatly excel at, one for crusaders, and the rest can be War/Zerk content. I look forward to the day the raid leader says, "Okay Sanctum, this is your encounter" as I see the text that I've been switched to the MT group.

mr23sgte

07-31-2007, 06:18 PM

I think some of your points are valid, but did we really need help tanking heroics & instances? IMO we were fine already- we need help tanking epics/adds and being wanted in raids. In my experience most epic mobs use "abilities" which completely blow through Tsunami (which everyone thinks is gods gift for monks) Last night for instance I used the Tsunami+Rescue technique and was instantly one shotted by the Epic. Uncontested avoid needs to be upped for Brawlers or Brawler specific gear needs more mit added. I'm thankful for the bonus to our single group buff which I still haven't figured out why Brawlers get one group buff, but other fighter classes get two group buffs................... Evade not likely going to be on my AA line-up b/c if you waste all the points in that line /yes you will get aggro..../which is good if you are attempting tanking/off-tanking Epics....but it won't matter b/c you WON"T LIVE ANY LONGER!

Bewts

07-31-2007, 06:53 PM

Crusaders lost their second group buff, I believe its self only now? That leaves just Zerkers and Guards with group buffs (like the group defensive buff from guards is all that significant anyways?)I agree with your points on tanking epic content, we aren't equipped to handle that role. I think the other 4 plate fighters are enough to tackle the offtanking task as it stands.I'm not sure how you think we will be getting aggro from using Evade or Mongoose stance. Monks have been edited from an incapable raid tank in most situations to a form of de-hate. You can syphon 9% hate from anyone in the raid, give another a de-aggro proc, and de-aggro your entire group to include yourself.I also agree that we still need to raise the question why other fighters have more uncontested avoidance than the avoidance classes. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. The only 'rational' line of thought is that they have a shield to throw in front of attacks. Too bad the uncontested avoidance is attached to the stance so you can use a 2her and still enjoy the bonus. That or use the buckler AA's.I think that being able to use TV and Mongoose stance plus our own group hate / spell casting buff are pretty solid compared to other classes in regards to the buff category.I think brawlers are going the way of utility with the ability to tank heroic content. The well equipped can probably still tank some epic content - but even good scouts can tank heroic content so I don't see the issue with that either.I'm not being a fanboi here, I'm just stating what appears to be an obvious deviation from the intended roles Monks played for a long long time.

Cirth_Beer

08-01-2007, 06:52 AM

I do agree with Bewts. Monk the new aggro cop :p

Timaarit

08-01-2007, 07:09 AM

Bewts wrote:<blockquote>Not the greatest of changes, but gives raids a reason to bring us along more often which is always a bonus in my book. I will say, I definitely wish there were a few boss epic encounters where Monks had a niche. I'm still of the line of thinking that each instanced raid should have one encounter that each fighter archetype would make much easier on the raid. One boss Brawlers would greatly excel at, one for crusaders, and the rest can be War/Zerk content. I look forward to the day the raid leader says, "Okay Sanctum, this is your encounter" as I see the text that I've been switched to the MT group.</blockquote>Well the problem with this is that is only way way it can be done with the way combat currently works. And it is the way how Tacticians Armor works. I'd also hate a situation where my raidspot depens on a mob that can only be taunted by a brawler. But they really cannot make the encounter to be brawler specific in any other way since there is no way they can make it depend on avoidance. Our guardian has a bit under 62% avoidance while soloing, my monk can get to 68% (yes, I am specced for DPS though). But the difference is too small to fit any kind of encounter rules to favor a brawler. No, the balance for fighters needs to be done by making all classes to excel in one area, not by scripting the mobs to only be affected by taunts from certain class.

Nokrahs

08-01-2007, 01:12 PM

so what are monks supposed to be now? bards? I'm puzzled...

mr23sgte

08-01-2007, 04:50 PM

Is Mongoose stance castable on others? In the description it says "self" ............ Bewt i was saying if you use group evade to lower hate on your group and cast mongoose stance on another player to lower there hate - - if you are tanking ...you will still die when the epic hits you.

Morrolan V

08-01-2007, 05:23 PM

Mongoose stance cannot currently be cast on anyone other than yourself. I /bugged it and Couching posted about it in the GU37 Feedback thread. Please /bug it in game.I respeced to go all the way down the hate management line (TV enhancement, mongoose stance, evade check). I have to say that it seemed to help. I was with a mixed DPS group on a raid last night - cast TV with the hate transfer cross-raid on the MT, and spammed Evade Check every 20 seconds. I had a high DPSing swashie, a wizard and a conj with me. It seemed that it helped. We got aggro considerably less than the other DPS group that had no monk. On two occasions, I hit evade check right after the wizard drew aggro and the mob snapped back to the MT. (Could that be coincidence - sure - but I liked it anyhow.)Add up all three items and we become pretty integral parts of a raid's aggro management. We are the only fighter class with the ability to transfer hate TO the tank, and the only class in the game with a general purpose group detaunt. When they fix Mongoose Stance, it will be that much better - AFAIK, it will be the only skill in the game that will allow one character to make some of another character's aggro go away completely, rather than transfering it.I like it.

Cirth_Beer

08-01-2007, 07:46 PM

each time i cast evade i got a message saying it dont work on a fighter Oo was it because i had a berserk in group ?

Bewts

08-02-2007, 12:36 AM

Actually, considering you are a Fighter, it also won't de-aggro you if you have mongoose stance or dragonstance active. Thats why you get the message. I also know that the zerker I grouped with also got that message so as far as seeing the effect impacting - it works. I'd just like to see a message stating you cast Evade Check. I'm still not sure if the de-aggro is resistable (I don't think it is). It would be great to at least see the message go off so you can look for it in the parser. Also realize there is a range on the effect of Evade Check. I'm not sure if you can melee and catch all the sorcerors if you are in sorceror type group. Something to think about anyways... I used Mongoose Stance explicitly on myself in Lycem last night (50% chance to proc a 640 deaggro I think). I also spammed Evade Check every chance I remembered to. I typically dropped it from the outset of the encounter and didn't wait for assist calls either. I think I took aggro once because I used Crescent Strike on incoming and some of the mobs resisted our tanks AE taunt. Good thing for Tsunami =) Other than that, nothing changed on the random side of spike aggro and I was grouped with 2 Rangers, a Zerker, a Templar and a Dirge. I myself topped one trash parse at 1600 dps (granted it was a 30 sec encounter), mostly stuck around 1k-1.3k dps. Templar had a hard time leaving me under 30% health for nearly 100% criticals, but when I did I didn't see too much increase in any of the parses.I still have a hard time convincing the MT to accept my Tranquil Vision over their version of the buff. I ended up putting Tranquil Vision on the Warlock and told them in a /tell to go to town and push the bill - she didn't pull aggro till the final boss. She consistently parsed 1400+ dps and only pulled aggro on the final boss in Lycem (we wiped at 2%). Went back down and beat him second time around though taking 6th on the parse overall.Anyone have a guess if Mongoose Stance will proc on spells? If not it looks like you'll need a high melee dps to make it effective - also is it 'supposed' to be raid friendly or just group friendly?