News from latest Test update...

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>Bruiser </p><ul><li>Enhance: Heavy Scarring: Also improves reuse speed by 6 seconds per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Close Mind: No longer requires both Stone Deaf and Heavy Scarring achievements. Improved reuse speed from 5 to 7 seconds per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Intervene, Intercept, Intercede: Also grants a temporary damage absorption bonus to your target by 3% per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Impose: Also reduces resistability by 1% per rank.</li><li>Enhance: Brag: Also reduces resistability by 1% per rank.</li><li>Soak Hit: Whenever you are the target of an Intervene ability, you receive a temporary damage absorption bonus of 9%.</li><li>Drag: Reduced duration from 5 to 4 seconds.</li><li>Alternate: Shiftiness: Increased detaunt effectiveness.</li><li>Evade: Renamed Control Hate: If Shiftiness is active, it reduces a hate position. Otherwise, it increases a hate position with an enemy.</li><li>Retribution of Stone: Increased trigger percentage from 20% to 25%. Damage by all ripostes are increased by 35%.</li></ul> So... yeah. Not sure exactly how the Intercepting line works out... probably still iffy on that one, but it's an overall boost so it's definitely a step in the right direction. Retribution of Stone and the two upgrades are also along those lines. It's better than it was, but is it still worth dropping 21 points into that line? A 5% increase on a thing that so rarely happens isn't going to help it enough I think... the day they change it to Deflection is the day I seriously reconsider my AA layout. As for the Attentions line... holy crap. I was already intending on putting SOME points in that line, but with a final like Control Hate, yikes! Increases hate position with enemy? Are we talking about a PROC?! Even on a timer, that's a great boost to aggro control...like another mini rescue. I honestly don't even care that Drag was reduced by 1 second, considering I used it primarily for things that took less time than that anyways. Especially if we get Control Hate in trade. I may have to rethink my total dumping of points into the damage line.

[Agaxiq]

Yes, definitely some interesting changes.  Not sure about putting 20 points in Attention though, but having a mini-rescue every 20 seconds is definitely nice, and changes a LOT when we tank. Of course, if we're not tanking, its largely a waste.  However, I've retired the bruiser from raiding and have restricted him to two-boxing, so I might sacrifice the damage line and go Conditioning and Attention.  I dont use drag at all. Here is my train of thought: Conditioning: 5 - Ignore Agony 5 - Vigorous Spirit 5 - Stone Deaf 5 - Close Mind 1 - Retribution of Stone Attention: 5 - Oppress 5 - Pressure 5 - Last Breath 3 - Shiftiness 2 - Rescue 1 - Control Hate Knockouts: 3 - Callous Stomp 3 - Steel Fist 2 - Uppercut That way, I can still keep at least a bunch of points in knockouts.  With Control Hate this is a better tanking build so the loss in DPS is offset by that awesome new taunt.  We'll see how it goes though. I'd be interested to see how 8 points in Claw Reversal would help Retribution of Stone.  Been a while since I used the STR line though, but at least I wouldn't be ditching fabled weapons to try.    I'd have to ditch WIS line though which would suck. Does +parry increase +riposte chances though? agressiv

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Fully 20% of all parries are ripostes. Basically, 1 in 5 parries are instead a riposte. Outside of any abilities or AA's like the Strength line's thing or adornments, etc. So increasing parry means increasing your riposting. So Int line and Str line would be best for Retribution of Stone. Personally, I still think it's not enough.. Control Hate's benefit is that it's a Hate Position <i>modifier</i>. Meaning that if you are tanking, it's a mini rescue.. but if you are DPSing, you can reduce your position if you pull aggro once in a while. Especially with the hate transfer decreases in the same update, I'm guessing we'll be capable of pulling aggro even more. Considering our DPS is all Burst... it'll be nice to have the option to drop a hate position after burning through all our Knockout Combo/CA's at the start of a pull, heh. I'm just so psyched that it's that versatile... useful regardless of what position you are in.

[Agaxiq]

Great, thanks for that info. I will respec (assuming we get a free respec) in STR and INT and give it a whirl with the changes I posted above.  I'll do some befores and afters to see what a dps hit it will be losing some of the knockdowns though. I might pick up some +parry gear as well just to see if that helps.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Well, the wrist parry adornments are 2% each and even better.. uncontested. However, I have no clue if they set off a riposte or not. Would be interesting to see. As it is, I think they are all seperate bonuses too. Sooo.. you'll have (in uncontested bonuses), a 2% followed by a 2%, followed by 6% riposte from AA, followed by 16% from defensive stance (deflection tho, not riposting). With a contested 13-14% from parry (boosted by AA and skill from gear). So Uncontested Avoidance results give us: 2% of 100 would leave 98%. 2% of 98 would leave 96.04%. 6% of 96.04 would leave 90.28% 16% of 90.28 would leave 75.83% going through. This is worst case tho, like fighting Epics. Riposte chance tho.. slide the 14% parry in before the deflection to see how much it's actually getting... 14% of 90.28 would leave 77.64%, so 22.36% total parried or riposted. 5.76% is already Riposted from the AA, so leaving 16.6% parries. Reduce that to 1/5th for ripostes, 3.32%. So a total of ~9% ripostes. Maybe 8% or so against a Heroic Named or Epic mob. So we are really looking at something like 2-2.5% chance per attack that the Retribution of Stone will go off. This is assuming the 2% parry adornments give riposte chance as normal. If not, then lower that to like 1%. What these numbers basically tell me is that it's not even worth doing unless you have the Strength Line's Riposte bonus.. but even then, you are looking at setting it off in somewhere between 1 in 50 to 100 hits against you, getting worse the higher level/epic the mob you fight. With no way for it to distinguish absorbing the big 10k hit, or the 100 point damage shield hit, this ability STILL looks fairly wimpy compared to even just say... our proc on our Legendary Set. It really needs to be something like 25% chance per Deflection for it to even resemble a "tanking final AA". Then we'd have a 4% chance against an Epic mob (16% uncontested when in Defensive). NEARLY a 1.0 proc rate, lol. Or better yet, make Deflection completely uncontested too so we have a ~8-10% chance to proc this sucker in any environment. That's something I'd definately put my points into.

[Silentwolf712]

Live: <img src="http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/3741/livezx2.jpg" border="0"> Test: <img src="http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/3661/testpc7.jpg" border="0"> Note the two changes I didn't see mentioned in the update notes to Rumble and Rabid Cry.

[tt66]

Does the new version of Rabid Cry mean what I think it means? Because if that works group-wide, we may just have found some sort of raid utility.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Oh wow... now THAT'S nice. Soooo... they reduce everyone's detaunts and transfers, and then give (brawlers at least) a way to improve them? HA! Talk about "creating a role" for us.

[Thail]

<img src="http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7904/thaylds5.gif" border="0"> <a href="http://clanofshadows.net/forum/modcp.php?mode=ip&p=38078&t=6376&sid=4a230c61d0f4e1868d9583755e519133" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"></a> <hr /> Got some decent changes for the Bruisers. But been asking for 2 years for a reason to bring us to every raid. Now my guild is differnt then most and we usually have one on raids or a Monk but... <b>Quote:</b> Drag: Reduced duration from 5 to 4 seconds Why nerf our only useful raid utility originally it was 7 seconds /sigh

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Actually, now that I look at it, the +16% to taunt values on Rabid Cry is what's increasing our taunt on Rumble. 418 x 1.16 = 484.88, ~485 So there wasn't a change to Rumble, but it does benefit from the change to Rabid Cry, which is nice.

[Silentwolf712]

Ah, that makes more sense.  Thanks for pointing that out.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>Honestly, I find the change to Rabid Cry to be junk. I mean, it is better than nothing but its effect is so horribly minimal that it is still not worth a raid slot.</p><p>Since taunts and detaunts suck so bad, a 16% boost in taunts might as well be nothing. This isn't worth a slot in the MT group, that's for sure. A guard can pump out about 427 DPS worth of taunts, so this would add 68 DPS worth of agro containment to his taunts. For an assassin it would increase his detaunts enough to allow him to do an additional 18 DPS without pulling agro (unless the assassin uses detaunt poison). The difference between high and low rolls on abilities is larger than this so the effect of rabid cry is not likely to be noticable.</p><p>Much like Retribution of Stone, any abilitity that has a percentage effect of something that is already a minimal percentage is relatively useless.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

It's definitely a good start though. And keep in mind if you are placed into a DPS group, you are multiplying this detaunt bonus by 4 or 5, depending on the number of players. Yeah, single target you could see it being somewhere in the 40% range.. but when it can affect up to 5 people using detaunts (including yourself), then it can't be that high. Basically.. we offset the reduction placed onto the Troub's hate reduction... although we require people actively detaunting for ours to have any benefit. I'm just curious as to what other little nuggets they'll be adding to our class.

[Madmoon]

<p>I like it.  In groups, I've often had knowledgable plateheads ask me to take off Rumble.  I tell them, by the time I generate enough Hate with Rumble, it's near the end of the fight, anyway.  Now, I dunno <img src="/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Regardless, I like it.  And besides, we're still fighters.  It's not like a rogue stealing agro, squish.</p><p>As far as STR-INT - am I the only one who has heard that brawlers are benefitting from no weapons' penalties once DW weapons are gone?  Apparently, our melee DPS will be highest in the game?  Scouts and mages will still be Tier 1 DPS because of CAs and Spells, but we certainly should be able to put the kibosh on arguments regarding the highest DPS (single-target) among fighters.  <b><span style="font-size: x-small">IF</span></b> this isn't a complete rumor, then you may not want to go weaponless with STR.</p><p>So, raid utility (although check with coercers - they think the changes favor them... maybe it favors both, I dunno, giving raids an option unless they're min/maxxing) and a DPS boost... if it all pans out, what're we going to whine about next?</p><p>Redmouser Bruiser, AB</p>

[Rezzonico]

<p>instead of the increasing of 16% of taunts and detaunt, they could increase something more useful.</p><p>Like, chance of 16% with a melee att. to cast a self buff for 1 minute that gives 30 STR or instead of STR increasing more  DPS (something like 20 more), to all group members</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>It's definitely a good start though. And keep in mind if you are placed into a DPS group, you are multiplying this detaunt bonus by 4 or 5, depending on the number of players. Yeah, single target you could see it being somewhere in the 40% range.. but when it can affect up to 5 people using detaunts (including yourself), then it can't be that high. Basically.. we offset the reduction placed onto the Troub's hate reduction... although we require people actively detaunting for ours to have any benefit. </blockquote><p>So, 5 guys can do 18 more DPS without stripping agro? That is still within the margin of basically every weapon attack or CA out there so a high roll or low roll will determine whether they get agro or not if they are that close. If your DPS classes are within 18 DPS of pulling agro then at any moment you could have larger problems than what this buff is going to fix for you. Hell if you're *that* close to stripping a better deaggro would be to turn the buff off in the first place.</p><p>It doesn't matter that it can affect up to 5 people because the change is so small...seriously, 18 DPS for an assassin. Even in a group of nothing but melee DPS you're still replacable by any class that can do 120 DPS or more higher than you. A % off of weak detaunts != straight hate reduction from a Troub. Not even close.</p><p> <cite>"Rezzonica" wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like, chance of 16% with a melee att. to cast a self buff for 1 minute that gives 30 STR or instead of STR increasing more  DPS (something like 20 more), to all group members</blockquote></p><p>A +str proc would be junk since it is so easy to cap the stat out in the first place, but a base +25 DPS with a good proc for another 20...now that would be nice.</p>

[Rezzonico]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p> "Rezzonica" wrote: </p><blockquote>Like, chance of 16% with a melee att. to cast a self buff for 1 minute that gives 30 STR or instead of STR increasing more  DPS (something like 20 more), to all group members</blockquote><p>A +str proc would be junk since it is so easy to cap the stat out in the first place, but a base +25 DPS with a good proc for another 20...now that would be nice.</p></blockquote><p> OMG i'm Rezzonico <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not Rezzonica <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> LoL np <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway, i want to add one more thing, i think that making the taunts more effective does not have so much sense for a bruiser, as the aggro is taken by our burst of DPS. Then if they had to do something useful but at the same time not so huge, something like the 25 dps + a proc a 20 would be nice.</p><p>Or instead of the proc of 20 DPS, how about : "15% chance to proc for a minute  power regeneration for 25"?  As we lack in Power/ Mana, would be useful during long fights to get a change to make it recovery fast :o</p><p>What do you think? would be nice the last one?</p>

[ganjookie]

I appreciate SoE Devs trying to do something for us. I really really do. As stated above though, +16%  to taunts isn't going to repair anything unless this is just the first of a bunch of changes. Keep up the changes mysterious Brawler dev, make us happy!

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Hmmm.. I wonder if they are gearing Bruisers up for a secondary tank position. A taunt increaser, along with an aggro position buffer/debuffer, means we could reasonably buff a tank AND be in a position to pick up aggro when necessary. Shame we can't have the Intercept line along with aggro control AND drag. I still think Drag will be more useful than the intercept line...

[DisturbedMagg]

<cite>Rezzonico wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p> "Rezzonica" wrote: </p><blockquote>Like, chance of 16% with a melee att. to cast a self buff for 1 minute that gives 30 STR or instead of STR increasing more  DPS (something like 20 more), to all group members</blockquote><p>A +str proc would be junk since it is so easy to cap the stat out in the first place, but a base +25 DPS with a good proc for another 20...now that would be nice.</p></blockquote><p> OMG i'm Rezzonico <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not Rezzonica <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> LoL np <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway, i want to add one more thing, i think that making the taunts more effective does not have so much sense for a bruiser, as the aggro is taken by our burst of DPS. Then if they had to do something useful but at the same time not so huge, something like the 25 dps + a proc a 20 would be nice.</p><p>Or instead of the proc of 20 DPS, how about : "15% chance to proc for a minute  power regeneration for 25"?  As we lack in Power/ Mana, would be useful during long fights to get a change to make it recovery fast :o</p><p>What do you think? would be nice the last one?</p></blockquote>The power thing would be useless imo as a whole since this is meant to be for the bruiser class in general and i for one have no issue with power, Shard, Heart, Manastone, Manastone 2.0, clarity pots and i got the cloak from Throne room. The buff is meant to be for all bruisers not just a select few. Needs to be something more dps oriented or like what there doing but with a little more bang to it.

[Gungo]

<p>What the initial poster didn't realize is Rabid Cry is becoming a RAID WIDE buff. It will buff the entire raids DPS and taunt/detaunt. Also those %'s will both increase with RoK and T8.</p><p>Furthermore every fighter is recieving a raid wide buff. Monks are recieving a raid wide haste/spell cast increaser.   Paladins ? Shadowknights? Bezerkers? Guardians?</p><p>I don't know how it will turn out but i already see brawlers getting the short end of the stick. They are also making the avoidance buffs work raid wide.. um yippee we still can't stack them and they still have a short range. </p><p>As much as scouts hate the agro control changes i am glad they are making fighters the means of agro control in raids. It actually makes sense and will help fighters who have agro issues in groups.  </p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>I can see this making a monk in the raid desirable (possibly...you still have to look at how much dps gain you get versus how much you lose by putting the monk in there instead of a real dps class), but I'm not sure about bruisers. The +16% taunt/detaunt is still useless, even raid-wide, because the effects aren't cumulitive. It doesn't matter if each person in a raid has a +16%taunt/detaunt bonus because they are not combined together into one large score to see if the tank keeps agro or not - each person is individually checking against each other individual. By comparison, a +casting speed mod *is* cumulitive, because all of the faster cast timers are pooled together to some net effect - be it keeping the tank healed or making the mob dead.</p><p>If we are so close to pulling agro that a +16% taunt/detaunt makes a difference then we should probably be turning off our +25 dps buff entirely. Melee classes will have less hate without this buff than they will with it.</p><p>I'm not against having a raid-wide agro ability, but since agro is not cumulitive it needs to be large to be effective.</p>

[Couching]

SK: STR/STA buff had the STR taken away and +90 spell damage added. Pally : STR/Wis buff Stripped STR and + 90 heals added Monk : Haste buff had 15.1% spell haste added Bruiser : DPS buff had 16% bonus to taunts / detaunts Guard/Zerker : I didnt see anything different That's what I read from Eq2flame. I would say good job to Devs. It makes sense that MT and OT are always needed (usually guardian and zerker). The rest fighters are shafted and ignored. With this change, it makes sense to invite crusader or brawler to raid.

[Amz]

This will probably be a raid-wide buff with GU38, so it becomes MUCH more impressive then. As such, it's a free improvement, and a (small) step in the right direction.

[Bladewind]

<p>I don't see how the taunt/detaunt buff is not cumulative.  Everyone accrues aggro.  You want the MT to stay on top of the hate list.  The tank gets a 16% bonus to all of their taunts and hate procs while everyone else gets a 16% bonus to all of the detaunts and detaunt procs.  It might not make a huge difference on direct taunt/detaunt abilities like fighter taunts and elude, but it will be very nice with threat/dethreat procs.  </p><p>Also, does it effect 1)transfers, 2)straight hate buffs, 3)ignorant bliss poisons?  If it affects any or all of these three as well as direct cast abilities and procs, it will be insanely useful.  </p><p>It might not have as good of a direct effect as a troub's group threat reducer, but it is raidwide and will stack with other aggro/deaggro buffs in use.  Considering the loss of a position reducer on my brigand, I'll always want a bruiser in raid to bolster my dethreat proc and elude.  The dps portion fo the buff is also now raidwide, so that is a second plus.</p><p>I was initially disappointed in the casting speed buff for my monk because it is not too directly useful for him, but it will be a nice plus for the healers and mages.  I think the bruiser change will have more impact in light of non-fighter deaggro nerfs, but both will make us less of a waisted spot.</p><p>It may seem cheesy to some, but I like the idea of fighters having a more direct hate management role, even when not tanking.  This change coupled with our eof deaggro change is a step in the right direction, imho.  If we could get our eof end line change to be a group proc instead of activatable, that would be golden.</p><p>If our uncontested gets fixed, our raidwide avodiance buff will be useful, too.</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

"Bladewind" wrote: <blockquote>I don't see how the taunt/detaunt buff is not cumulative.  Everyone accrues aggro.  You want the MT to stay on top of the hate list.  The tank gets a 16% bonus to all of their taunts and hate procs while everyone else gets a 16% bonus to all of the detaunts and detaunt procs.  It might not make a huge difference on direct taunt/detaunt abilities like fighter taunts and elude, but it will be very nice with threat/dethreat procs.  <p>Also, does it effect 1)transfers, 2)straight hate buffs, 3)ignorant bliss poisons?  If it affects any or all of these three as well as direct cast abilities and procs, it will be insanely useful.</p></blockquote><p>It is not cumulative because every person is in a personal fight for agro with the main tank. If everyone does X amount more damage because they can cast faster, get a higher DPS bonus, etc. or X amount more healing because they can cast faster, got a +healing buff, etc. their contribution with the bonus, gets added to everyone elses contribution with the bonus. If all 10 of your melee guys do 200 more dps then the mob takes 2000 more dps - the +200 dps contribution is summed in its effect.</p><p>With agro, it doesn't matter if the guy next to you is one nuke away from pulling - if you suddently get +16% to your dethreat it doesn't help him at all. He gets a +16% to his dethreat ability, and you get yours. They don't combine into a +32% because you are both fighting individual fights vs the tank. The only thing that is cumulative about our ability is that the tank gets +16% taunt and the dps gets +16% dethreat. Those will combine.</p><p>Now, if you're in danger of pulling agro then the taunt/dethreat bonus will add a cumulative amount of dps you can now do without pulling agro. This only helps people on your raid that would otherwise pull agro if it were not for your buff. Since I already showed that the gain from this ability is abysmally low it is 1) unreliable because you're so close to pulling that any spike in damage is likely to put you over the edge and 2) only going to help people very, very close to pulling agro at all times. That is probably only a few people on any given raid, so the cumulative effect of that abysmally low dps they can now do is likewise abysmally low.</p><p>If it does effect hate buffs/debuffs <i>then</i> it is useful. The dirge/troub goes back up to 41.76% buff/debuff, the assassin/swashy goes to 20.88% transfer, and the coercer gets a 19.72% buff and transfer (assuming this stuff isn't rounded to 0 decimals).</p><p>The value reported on our rumble goes up directly in the ability window, so I assume the poisons/proc gear work the same way. I don't think it has any effect on hate buffs and transfers but nobody has said one way or another so I'm just guessing.</p>

[Madmoon]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p>With agro, it doesn't matter if the guy next to you is one nuke away from pulling - if you suddently get +16% to your dethreat it doesn't help him at all. He gets a +16% to his dethreat ability, and you get yours. They don't combine into a +32% because you are both fighting individual fights vs the tank. The only thing that is cumulative about our ability is that the tank gets +16% taunt and the dps gets +16% dethreat. Those will combine.</p></blockquote> I understand what you are saying, but I still don't see how this is not a good thing.  Even just insuring that the MT gets 16% more Hate seems to be very useful.  We've always been marginal in Raids, or at least in the high end EoF ones.  Now we can do all the things we did before, AND we make all Agro issues smoother, be it by 16% or 32% cumulative with the MT if we are near enough to help him in that way.  I could see slidng us in a scout group to help channel all their agro off.  Heck, we might even get other fighters invited.  Imagine four scouts, a paladin and a bruiser.  The scouts set their agro to the paladin, he taunts and tries to keep agro high enough if it slips off of the MT, and we augment him AND the scouts.  Or some such.  I haven't been to EoF 4x raids, but on some of the longer raid fights I have been on, I'd rather have the agro slip to a platehead or to me, rather than fall off onto the scouts.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>He doesn't get 16% more hate - he gets 16% more taunt hate, which isn't a whole lot compared to DPS hate. For a guardian it is something like 68 threat per second added. 102 if it is calculated before the +hategain buffs and the MT is capped at 50%.</p><p>Similarly, scouts don't get -16% hate. What you are describing sounds like you think this is just like the troub -hate buff and the dirge +hate buff. If we got a mini version of the troub and dirge buffs this would be good, but that is not what this it. It is a 16% increase to an already marginal way of losing threat. Much like Retribution of Stone is a 20% proc off an already marginal way of avoiding. They are crappy for the exact same mechanical reason.</p>

[Bladewind]

<p>Ok, so it is a discreet bonus applied globally.  What's the problem with that?  You boost the MT's taunts and threat procs by 16% and you boost everyone else's detaunts and dethreat procs by 16%.  You are looking at least at a 200 hate per sec overall swing in favor of the MT (assuming your scouts can find their elude buttons and turn on their dethreat taunts) just by a bruiser being present (not to mention all melee on the raid getting +24 dps).  And once again, do we know if it affects:</p><ul><li>Item Procs</li><li>Transfers</li><li>% Hate Boosts</li><li>Dethreat Poisons</li></ul><p>If it affects these, it is going to be huge.  Even if it does not, it is a nice free bonus.  We also have the option of speccing into AAs that reduce group hate.  These are also modified by the bruiser raid buff.  It's up to you if you want to ebcome an aggro venting specialist, but the option is there - brand new niche.</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>It being a discreet bonus applied globally is my whole point. It is <i>balanced</i> as a discreet change applied globally, but the effects of this discreet change are not cumulative the way global discreet changes to damage, healing, etc. are so it becomes much weaker. </p><p>On dethreat procs: For every 100 dethreat you proc 1/minute this buff will give you an additional .26 dethreat. Notice the decimal. So, for example, the swashy's avoid censure at M1 does 1,252 dethreat 3.9 times per minute. That is 81 threat per second. Our buff adds 13 threat per second to that. 13. And this is for the relatively uber scout dethreats. Casters get much less benefit.  </p><p>And this is not a free bonus. This is the bonus that is supposed to make us desirable in a raid. Raid-wide +25 DPS is alright (I don't really agree with raid-wide buffs, but whatever) but the added ability on top of it doesn't rate.</p>

[Catodon]

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, so it is a discreet bonus applied globally.  What's the problem with that?  You boost the MT's taunts and threat procs by 16% and you boost everyone else's detaunts and dethreat procs by 16%.  You are looking at least at a 200 hate per sec overall swing in favor of the MT (assuming your scouts can find their elude buttons and turn on their dethreat taunts) just by a bruiser being present (not to mention all melee on the raid getting +24 dps).  And once again, do we know if it affects:</p><ul><li>Item Procs</li><li>Transfers</li><li>% Hate Boosts</li><li>Dethreat Poisons</li></ul><p>If it affects these, it is going to be huge.  Even if it does not, it is a nice free bonus.  We also have the option of speccing into AAs that reduce group hate.  These are also modified by the bruiser raid buff.  It's up to you if you want to ebcome an aggro venting specialist, but the option is there - brand new niche.</p></blockquote>Assuming the mechanics are the same as the existing warlock buff 'vacuous' which does the same thing, then it will affect anything that has a hate 'number' on it, but will not do anything for hate% or hate position changers. Included: Direct taunts, detaunts                 Proccing taunts (rumble, warrior reactive taunts, etc.) and proccing detaunts (illusionist/coercer, etc.)                 Taunt or detaunt procs from items (Ascendant, various mage/scout detaunt items, etc.)                 Detaunt poisons (same as item procs.)                 

[tt66]

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We also have the option of speccing into AAs that reduce group hate. </p></blockquote>We do?

[Bladewind]

<p>Oops, I thought the change to evade was the same for both classes.   I'm very jealous of the bruiser version now that I see it is different <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You can't use it to be a hate management specialist, but having a buff that will proc you up or down a hate position as desired is very powerful.  It almost gaurantees you will not gain aggro if you do not want to and also makes getting peels back much easier when tanking.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Shame we'll never be a tank on a raid, heh. Although, if the situation calls for offtanking a single target, and uncontested avoidance be-damned, they put me there anyways... it will become useful. <i>Edit: That is, to say, it's not that I'm not grateful for it in regular play. Holy crap will it be useful, regardless if I'm tank or offtank/DPS/Pulling with sonic fists and drag. It's just not going to be the thing that brings us to raids.</i> The Brawler conundrum is one of the most backwards thinking things I've seen in this game. We are designed with Single Target Aggro being our Forte... and yet, we are given such a short end of the stick for survivability in raids, that we will never see a position where we will be used for it. It's right up there with Coercer's damage based on the mob landing hits... but then his other spells are all designed to STOP the mob form landing any hits. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Either make Brawlers Uber Single Target, and the Best tanks for tanking Named. Or make Brawlers really good at holding group aggro, and make us good enough tanking for adds and offtanking. The idea of one tank being both good at Multiple target aggro AND Single target aggro, AND having top notch survivability just does not fit with the concept of "many different tanks doing the job equally well, just differently".

[Bladewind]

<p>An uncontested fix will go a long way towards sorting 'the brawler conundrum.'  That's what is gimping us and preventing us from performing traditional fighter roles well in top tier raids.</p><p>This round of buff changes seems to be aimed at making all fighters more useful in the raid setting.  They are not earth-shattering, but they are a nice bonus.  Hopefully a more comprehensive brawler fix follows.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I hope so.... our combined post totals on the two threads in the Test Forum are already larger than the longstanding "bard issues" thread. And only about half of it from people not understanding the issue, heh. Considering the amount of good ideas being thrown around (that as far as I can see, have no possible game breaking issues), I'm somewhat optimistic about some future changes for Brawlers. Also, I'm not giving up hope that GU38 has more in store for Fighters. Just one more universal Fighter hate boosting ability, and a revamp/improvement to the intercede line, could solidify a non-MT Fighter's role in a raid. ESPECIALLY after the aggro reduction being brought in, and t8 having no new heals for all healers.

[Prrasha]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>[...] and t8 having no new heals for all healers. </blockquote>Where's this info from?  Based on upgrades-every-14-levels, two of the 5 standard heal spells should upgrade for all healers (currently the highest-level versions of the two "single target direct heals" are at 57 and 60.  The specialty heals at 68, and group directs and group specialties at 70 shouldn't have upgrades.) And if beta finds healing to be an issue, I'd guess a few Ancient Teaching-type skills will be healing related.

[SageGaspar]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p>On dethreat procs: For every 100 dethreat you proc 1/minute this buff will give you an additional .26 dethreat. Notice the decimal. So, for example, the swashy's avoid censure at M1 does 1,252 dethreat 3.9 times per minute. That is 81 threat per second. Our buff adds 13 threat per second to that. 13. And this is for the relatively uber scout dethreats. Casters get much less benefit.  </p><p>And this is not a free bonus. This is the bonus that is supposed to make us desirable in a raid. Raid-wide +25 DPS is alright (I don't really agree with raid-wide buffs, but whatever) but the added ability on top of it doesn't rate.</p></blockquote> Avoid censure, I'm pretty sure it procs off CAs too, which if you time it correctly can almost double the proc rate of something especially if you're rocking sailwind or CA haste or whatever. Regular haste will pretty much double the proc rate of anything, and a swash is easy to get high, so more like 35 HPS from just the proc alone without any enhancements or luck of the dirge. Ignorant Bliss is roughly the same although it's a 3.0 proc I believe so it gets something like a 26 HPS bonus (assassins can enhance IB very easily btw and their poison proc enhancement is getting better next patch). Elude is a raw 64 hate per second which would give you like 10.4 HPS bonus. So if I just take your number for the tank (dunno the calculation but I'll assume you got it right), assuming it goes in before the multiplier which I hope it will, just adding a bruiser to your raid gets you a 170+ hate per second differential between swashy and tank. 170 is higher than it sounds because we're not comparing it to 2k DPS or whatever, we're comparing it to the difference between the total hate of the tank and the swash without this added bonus -- this includes transfers, raw DPS, taunts, detaunts... with hate and deaggro amplifiers included. Assassins don't have avoid censure but next patch they'll be able to get an extra 50% deaggro on ignorant bliss without going far out of their way in the EoF AAs, there's an end skill that'll give 24 seconds of double poison procs every three minutes, and they have surveil on a three minute timer (swashes have something similar I didn't include). Assassins have some more spikey moves on longer timers so even though it's every three minutes it's still meaningful. It all really depends on the hate changes they're making and their future itemization. You can tweak up all the numbers including sorcs with AAs that no one takes and they're also affected by Luck of the Dirge. I believe they added a new hate proc item in TTR, which might signal a direction they're trying for tank itemization. There's already deaggro proc items that no one uses and we might see more of them. I imagine there's a lot of tweaking left to go. Aggro is a tricky game to balance and without seeing their hate scoreboard from behind the scenes it's really tough to get an accurate feel for what's enough and what's too much.

[Madmoon]

<cite>SageGaspar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aggro is a tricky game to balance and without seeing their hate scoreboard from behind the scenes it's really tough to get an accurate feel for what's enough and what's too much. </blockquote>I have been generally dismissive regarding the concerns of this change, both for brawlers and for the doom predictors among scouts and mages, but this is a very good point.  The reason they are getting all this consternation is that people are so unsure how it will all play out.  If they reduce a sword's DR, everyone who wields it has an idea what that means and what the consequences will be.  In EQ1 I used to buy into the idea that the machinations of their equations were best left secret, so as not to make it a number crunching exercise, but when you are presented with two options you need to know why you are choosing the one you choose.  Just telling people to run through a few dozen raids to get a <b>guess</b> at what it really means is unfair.

[SageGaspar]

To be fair, us players have really gone sorta nuts with MMOs. If you just picked your favorite class and rolled through the game with any group that's not completely absurd you could have a fun time with the game content. You could grab one of every class even, form up a raid and still be successful at raid content, get your spiffy new class set without quantifying exactly how much it sucks, everyone having fun in their blissful ignorance of the nerfs and DPS margins going on behind the scenes. All that would matter is that each class be enjoyable and feel like they're contributing. But we've developed our parsers and our DPS analysis, cracked their formulae, and generally devoted more manhours to studying exactly how to minmax everything than they can match with devtime. Instead of, "Neat, I've always wanted to smack stuff around barehanded!" it's "[Removed for Content] I punched up the numbers and taking this AA line drops me 200 DPS against my fabled scepter of the ancient wyrms of latter day saints why can't you guys pull your heads out of your [Removed for Content] and just make these ten other changes that will harmonize us with the universe???" Of course those ten things screw with the balance of other classes, and as soon as some strange new itemization comes out it totally invalidates everything and the cycle starts anew. I can't have an issue with other people doing it because I do myself as well and get some enjoyment out of it, it's just funny how people that will easily beat the content in the game with or without the nerfs, even if they had to pick the unoptimal classes, find the most to complain about with every change.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

SageGasper, it's more than that though. I picked my class because it was a tank, and played it as a tank throughout the entire game. Then they added AA's and Uncontested Avoidance, and I suddenly wasn't able to perform anymore. Healers were complaining about me. I didn't even have to min/max or number crunch, I FELT the effects of a broken game. The reason I started number crunching was to see WHY plate tanks were suddenly so much better at holding aggro, and so much better at survival. I believe a lot of the good changes that have come to this game are here because a lot of us crunched the game down and showed the Devs our numbers. Shaman are literally the healers they are now because of this... Wards used to ignore mitigation, making them nearly utterly useless in the end game on any plate tank (and barely beneficial on a brawler). Now you can pick a Healer class, and be sage in the knowledge that you can play right till end game and not have to worry about whether or not you are capable of performing your job description.