Increase DPS and decrease tanking ability for Monks and Bruisers

[DirtyJawa84]

<p>I think SOE should decrease the tanking ability and increase the DPS, seeing as how few really want them as main tanks.  I know this sounds silly since they are a fighter class... but doesn't a leather wearing, bare fisted tank sound silly too?</p><p>I tried playing a Bruiser and Monk, and the main thing keeping me from really giving it a full shot is the lack of dps.  It doesn't make sense to me for someone that agile to not be able to hit fast and hard, especially being a fighter... fighters are strong, right?  Usually fighters use strength to hold up armor... when wearing leather, shouldn't they be hitting a lot harder and faster, similar to a scout without stealth and tracking?  Anyway, this is my 2 cents.</p>

[Couching]

I don't mind to decrease tanking to get better dps. BUT, SoE needs to fix rogue first. Rogue has better tanking capability than brawler already with much better dps and debuff. They have better aggro, higher mitigations and even better hp if they choice the right aa path. (Of course, less rogues would take it) Though, even with better aggro and higher mitigations, it's better than brawlers. SoE should lower tanking capability of all classes except tank classes.

[Bladewind]

<p>Don't fix it because it is broken?  The reason we are the unwanted step child of tanking classes is because we were broken a year ago and never fixed.</p><p>I'm all for a moderate dps boost through AA re-tooling (so the dps AAs modify weapon damage rather than giving static damage boosts), but we should not have to give up any tanking ability for that.  Our ability to tank should be fixed along with a moderate dps and utility boost.</p><p>As far as rogues go, the only reason they have the capability to tank as well as a brawler is because of the uncontested they get from a round shield.  If they want to be really good tanks, they have to dump a bunch of points into an AA line that forces them to give up considerable dps that they would have gotten from a different line.  If brawler uncontested is fixed, there is no way rogues will be in the same league, even with the sta line.  My brigand can tank a single target fairly well and has nice base tanking stats in defensive, but he has no situational aggro/defense buffs like a true tank and has a much harder time than a true fighter handling multiple targets.  Rogues don't need a nerf - brawlers need a fix.</p>

[djinnz]

<p>i can sympathise with your point of view but cant agree</p><p>my back ground is that  i duoed a monk and shaman in eq 1 as a tank healer combo, then monks were nerfed and tanking ability severly slashed, which apart from the raid scene effectivly ended my enjoyment of eq1</p><p>fast forward to eq 2, i thought long and hard before rolling a bruiser / defiler combo, my fear obviously was despite repeated promises that brawlers would be tanks, that they would lie through thier teeths and history would repeat its self.</p><p>My defiler bruiser combo for me is the best mix (healer / tank wise) of tanking ability and dps, its a very fine balance, i would be very dissappointed to see bruiser tanking take any sort of a hit, infact i feel taunt abilities need a boost to balance brawlers better.</p><p>again im not saying your wrong, just showing there is more than one point of view in this topic</p>

[Madmoon]

<p>Decrease our "tanking" ability?  Because we're not wanted?  My friend, you need to be in Norrath, and not just reading these boards.  In one place, and one place only, are we sub-par as fighters - end game EoF raids.  One.  Place.</p><p>We are sought after as much as any "tank" everywhere else.  I have been the lead fighter in almost every place on Norrath.  Every time I am on, I seek or accept offers to lead groups.  I have done so with no issues whatsoever.  No one I know wants a platehead over us, save for raids and maybe Unrest.  No one who has had a bruiser fronting them has any lingering doubts as to our fighter abilities.  I have even lead in Unrest, which is as close to EoF raids as you can get outside of a true raid.  And I am NOT raid-fabled equipped.</p><p>The vast, vast majority of Norrath is just fine for us.  The vast, vast majority of the levels we can perform admirably as the main point of attack in any situation.  One small section, EoF end-game raids is out of our league.  You would have us diminish our arch-type ability because of that?!?  If I wanted to be a scout, I would put on a dress and be one.</p><p>We are as good, and in many ways better, a fighter as any other fighter class.  I would not want to give up a drop of our "tanking."  Most bruisers want it fixed so that we can operate in EoF raids as easily as any similarly equipped platehead.  No one wants the abilit reduced!</p><p>Come out from the forums.  The light is bright, at first, but you'll be fine.</p><p>Redmouser Bruiser, AB</p>

[Lana]

I agree. Either boost our DPS or boost our ability to tank. My Bruiser is still pretty low (she is 40) I don't play her much mostly I can't really figure out the best way to play her. I am doing what I can to push her DPS to the max, but no matter what I try it seems most other tanks out DPS me in the end. Maybe it's my AA build... But she does look cooler than any of my alts. Blood Hide Adept Gi ftw.

[djinnz]

<p>redmouser i agree almost completely with your post, i also tank unrest, last night with just one healer and no mezzer. but i do play a whole host of (level 70) alts in different group make ups and i have witnessed brawler tanking having 2 down falls, which are taking streaky (unpredictable) damage and lack of agro control, particularly on multi mob encounters.</p><p>these problems can be got around of course with a bit of team work. but i do feel our taunt needs work, inparticular in those situations where we have to be in def stance. (mistmoore castle, unrest with one healer and raids)</p><p>my thought would be an aa in the defensive bruiser line (not sure where would be best for monks) that only can be used when in full def stance and steals 30% (even 10 or15% would be a good start) of anothers agro. like amends but situational. just a thought, wouldnt want to tread on a pally's niche, but somthing does need to be done imo</p>

[mellowknees72]

<cite>DirtyJawa84 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think SOE should decrease the tanking ability and increase the DPS, seeing as how few really want them as main tanks.  I know this sounds silly since they are a fighter class... but doesn't a leather wearing, bare fisted tank sound silly too?</p><p>I tried playing a Bruiser and Monk, and the main thing keeping me from really giving it a full shot is the lack of dps.  It doesn't make sense to me for someone that agile to not be able to hit fast and hard, especially being a fighter... fighters are strong, right?  Usually fighters use strength to hold up armor... when wearing leather, shouldn't they be hitting a lot harder and faster, similar to a scout without stealth and tracking?  Anyway, this is my 2 cents.</p></blockquote> I frankly don't care who doesn't want a monk or bruiser for a tank.  I don't want to see our tanking ability lessened.  Our DPS is already awesome, and we can tank fine.  We have great versatility, and if some players can't see or don't know that, well, pfft, then go into offensive stance and crank out the DPS.  But for those people who CAN see the value of a brawler tank...well, let's just say I don't want to lose that ability.

[Madmoon]

The only fighter that can give us a regular run for the money is a berzerker, and even then, that's AoE.  It is impossible to tell why one fighter "out-DPSes" another - you have to look at AA builds, gear and CA levels, stances and most important, playing style.  The differences usually can be laid at the feet of one of those conditions, and not an imbalance in the class as a whole.

[Couching]

Our dps problem is that we have less progression comparing to war and crusader. Our single and aoe proc are static damage rather than scaling with weapon. Our double attack is tied to bare hand only. It might be good for casual players since they can deal moderate damage without fabled weapons. They are satisfied and assuming brawler did decent dps since they will never group with high end plate tanks. It's impossible to let them understand how poor our dps is comparing to other plate tank with high end gears. It's really easy to fix this problem. Just change our brawler tree as war or crusader. Give us aa ability which scales with our weapons. It's definitely unreasonable that casual player can deal same aa damages as  hardcore players.

[tt66]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Our dps problem is that we have less progression comparing to war and crusader. Our single and aoe proc are static damage rather than scaling with weapon. Our double attack is tied to bare hand only. It might be good for casual players since they can deal moderate damage without fabled weapons. They are satisfied and assuming brawler did decent dps since they will never group with high end plate tanks. It's impossible to let them understand how poor our dps is comparing to other plate tank with high end gears. It's really easy to fix this problem. Just change our brawler tree as war or crusader. Give us aa ability which scales with our weapons. It's definitely unreasonable that casual player can deal same aa damages as  hardcore players. </blockquote> A perfect summation of our DPS issues compared to other fighters. /applaud.

[Madmoon]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>It's definitely unreasonable that casual player can deal same aa damages as  hardcore players. </blockquote><p>Says who?  I like the idea of fixing our DPS compared to other fighter classes, but I don't think gimping a casual player is the answer.  I don't use the STR AA anymore, having found some acceptable weapons for INT-WIS, but I like the STR AA line being very good for casual/non-70th players.  Unless you were 70th before KoS, you used the STR line.  No pulling the rug out from other brawlers, now that it doesn't allow you to compete with Zerks in the way you want.  As far as an entire line being worthless, a) it's an opinion, and b) go to all the other threads, no class is in love with each and every one of the AA lines.  Swashers hate INT, Defilers have no love for STA, etc., etc.</p><p>Allow brawlers to use weapons for better effect, but don't [Removed for Content] STR just because you're done with it in it's present incarnation. </p>

[Etchii]

<p>What you want should be attainable through AA specs.  It feels like  the whole system is messed up, but it seems there should be 3 things AAs can do for a bruiser</p><p> 1) Focus on DPS</p><p>2) Focus on tanking</p><p>3) Increase utility.</p><p> Will it work like that? I dont know... i just try to play my bruiser how I see fit throughout the constant changes thrown at us by the guys behind the scenes.</p><p> In short... I agree, thats my style of play as well, but we can not forget the tanking bruisers out there.  AA points should be the solution.</p>

[silentpsycho]

Lana@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>I agree. Either boost our DPS or boost our ability to tank. My Bruiser is still pretty low (she is 40) I don't play her much mostly I can't really figure out the best way to play her. I am doing what I can to push her DPS to the max, but no matter what I try it seems most other tanks out DPS me in the end. Maybe it's my AA build... But she does look cooler than any of my alts. Blood Hide Adept Gi ftw. </blockquote> Boost both, greatly, IMHO.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

This has been hashed out in the Test Feedback forums quite a bit now... There's no reason to have to give up any tanking ability. We already are fairly good at high end heroic tanking (although it could be better, considering uncontested avoidance). We excel at lower end heroic encounters and of course, soloing is very good. All our problems can be summed up with two issues: - Uncontested Avoidance broke our ability to avoid, and we were not given enough to make us in line with current content. Simple fix... give us higher Uncontested Avoidance, and make it a normal part of Deflection (not tied to a defensive stance). - Change the Wisdom AA line to a 35-40% chance to multi-attack instead of just a damage proc. This means we lose the single target bonus damage (which I think most of us are fine with) to gain SCALING damage based on the weapon we use. Also, giving the Strength line Double Attack with weapons brings single target damage back up. This change is a twofold fix... we do more damage that WILL scale with EQUIPMENT, rather than just LEVELS. We are having EQUIPMENT expansions now, which means our procs based on level are falling short. Basing it on WEAPONS means we will continue to grow with everyone else. Since damage increases, we can hold aggro better. Simple as that. There, now we have fixed tanking to be better than rogues, although plate tanks will still be more "steady" with higher mitigation and specific tricks, so we don't become the super tanks. Then our Damage will be brought more in line, and can compete with Zerkers if we decide to focus on it. And I've heard that they are testing new abilities to make ALL fighters have better utility in raids, so we might get that utility we're looking for as well.

[silentpsycho]

/cheer!!!  my bruiser may become my main once again if any of this actually happens.

[Madmoon]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote>/cheer!!!  my bruiser may become my main once again if any of this actually happens.</blockquote> Nah, he won't be a bruiser anymore, just a scout-wannabe.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>It's definitely unreasonable that casual player can deal same aa damages as  hardcore players. </blockquote><p>Says who?  I like the idea of fixing our DPS compared to other fighter classes, but I don't think gimping a casual player is the answer.  I don't use the STR AA anymore, having found some acceptable weapons for INT-WIS, but I like the STR AA line being very good for casual/non-70th players.  Unless you were 70th before KoS, you used the STR line.  No pulling the rug out from other brawlers, now that it doesn't allow you to compete with Zerks in the way you want.  As far as an entire line being worthless, a) it's an opinion, and b) go to all the other threads, no class is in love with each and every one of the AA lines.  Swashers hate INT, Defilers have no love for STA, etc., etc.</p><p>Allow brawlers to use weapons for better effect, but don't [Removed for Content] STR just because you're done with it in it's present incarnation. </p></blockquote>This would not [Removed for Content] the casual player. You're picturing what would happen to their <i>bare hand</i> dps if the number were to be lowered - however they would get to equip weapons and then get the (lowered) double attack so it would be as good or better for them. As it stands the only reason the STR line is any good is because the double attack bonus is so high, not because the fist weapon itself is so good.

[Madmoon]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote>This would not [Removed for Content] the casual player. You're picturing what would happen to their <i>bare hand</i> dps if the number were to be lowered - however they would get to equip weapons and then get the (lowered) double attack so it would be as good or better for them. As it stands the only reason the STR line is any good is because the double attack bonus is so high, not because the fist weapon itself is so good. </blockquote><p>True, though as it stands now, the STR line is very nice for new brawlers, in that a) it acts as constantly upgrading stat-less weapons and b) allows those who like the look of a weaponless brawler a viable option.  If they were able to equip normally available (say, mastercrafted) weapons and remain at the DPS level they were before, then fine.  However, if they would be required to get Legendary or Fabled, then it would be a "gimping," as most casual players - heck, <b>most</b> players, casual or otherwise - will never see that kind of gear until the end-game.  If even then.</p><p>But let's say that did happen.  The bulk of the brawlers are able to acquire mastercradted weapons and see no dropp-off in DPS, or a minor enough one that it is made up with adornments and stats.  Two problems arise: first, the bare-handed folk are now out.  And enough of them exist, maybe in comrable numbers to end-game EoF raiders that are feeling put out upon.  And second, wouldn't that create an imbalance throughout the brawlers life where they ARE able to come up with Legendary or Fabled gear?  Would we be back to soloing white heroics?</p>

[Couching]

Why should brawler deserve to get a free legendary to semi-fable weapon while leveling up? <b>If anyone wants a legendary weapon or fabled weapon, he should get it from mobs or buy it from broker.</b> Brawlers are totally screwed by those poor designs. <b>This game is all about progression. </b> It gave a wrong impression to casual players that brawler is powerful. It is not true! When I was leveling up, it's really hard to solo. It's impossible for anyone, not just brawler, to buy master craft weapons in the beginning of this game. All of my weapons/armors were quests reward or dropped from mobs since it's ultra hard to save money . I got my first 1p when I hit lv40. The first item I bought from a player is a lv 42 master craft weapon. After buying it, I have less than 1g left. I don't even buy player made food or drink until I hit lv60 in DoF. If you think brawler is too powerful to solo, you should try to kill mobs with treasure weapons rather than str line. It's a game breaking design and should be fixed.

[Madmoon]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Why should brawler deserve to get a free legendary to semi-fable weapon while leveling up? <b>If anyone wants a legendary weapon or fabled weapon, he should get it from mobs or buy it from broker.</b> Brawlers are totally screwed by those poor designs. <b>This game is all about progression. </b> It gave a wrong impression to casual players that brawler is powerful. It is not true! When I was leveling up, it's really hard to solo. It's impossible for anyone, not just brawler, to buy master craft weapons in the beginning of this game. All of my weapons/armors were quests reward or dropped from mobs since it's ultra hard to save money . I got my first 1p when I hit lv40. The first item I bought from a player is a lv 42 master craft weapon. After buying it, I have less than 1g left. I don't even buy player made food or drink until I hit lv60 in DoF. If you think brawler is too powerful to solo, you should try to kill mobs with treasure weapons rather than str line. It's a game breaking design and should be fixed. </blockquote><p> Easy on the bold font, eh?  There's a per mile charge with that stuff.</p><p>Don't beat the breast of poverty too fiercely.  I'd guess that most bruisers posting regularly were in the same boat.  I have made my own CAs forever.  Ad1s were out of my league.   Once I met my guild's Master Tailor, I managed to turn a few T6 rare leathers to wear finally anything better than common crafted.  AND I had to walk uphill to the Sinking Sands.  Both ways.</p><p>I never bought into the party line that the melee boost put them into pure Fabled, as you correctly allude.  And if they are just "very good Legendary" weapons, is that "game breaking?"  Even allowing for hyperbole, does it put brawlers significantly ahead of other classes on the way up?  I just don't see it. </p><p>That being said, the argument can be made that STR AAs are not in line with other classes - but isn't the OP's point that that we should lose all tanking for more DPS?  And many other brawlers want to carry weapons with the STR as is... imagine that DPS?!?</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I never bought into the party line that the melee boost put them into pure Fabled, as you correctly allude.  And if they are just "<b>very good Legendary" weapons</b>, is that "game breaking?"  Even allowing for hyperbole, does it put brawlers significantly ahead of other classes on the way up?  I just don't see it. </p></blockquote>Please tell me if there is any other class who can get free very good legendary weapons. Not to say, you don't need this line to level up brawlers. A lot of old school brawlers have no problem to get lv up without it. Since you ask me, is it game breaking. <b>The answer is YES since legendary should be got from heroic named.</b> Moreover, the legendary weapons you got will be obsolete when you level up. What we got from str line is not only very good legendary weapon, it is a HIGH TECH legendary weapon that it can level up automatically.

[Kram337]

I have both a 70 bruiser and a 70 swash, the swash is at this point slightly better geared than the bruiser is. But the bruiser still puts my swash to shame as far as tanking goes. But the swash can out damage the bruiser by 300-400 average dps. I've done a few 70's instances with my swash as MT and he does have trouble holding aggro on groups where my bruiser never does. Now with all that in mind, my swash is not spec'd to tank. And I fear if I reset my AA's and went with the tank line, he'd not only get an group taunt and be able to hold agro BETTER than the bruiser, and he'd still pump out more DPS and probably tank with the same effectiveness. Now I'm not saying to decrease rog tanking ability because I think that's one of their utilities in a pinch. But Bruiser needs better mitigation and of course I always welcome more dps. If SOE said "brawlers are no longer real tanks, they're T1 or T2 dps" I wouldn't be upset.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote>This would not [Removed for Content] the casual player. You're picturing what would happen to their <i>bare hand</i> dps if the number were to be lowered - however they would get to equip weapons and then get the (lowered) double attack so it would be as good or better for them. As it stands the only reason the STR line is any good is because the double attack bonus is so high, not because the fist weapon itself is so good. </blockquote><p>True, though as it stands now, the STR line is very nice for new brawlers, in that a) it acts as constantly upgrading stat-less weapons and b) allows those who like the look of a weaponless brawler a viable option.  If they were able to equip normally available (say, mastercrafted) weapons and remain at the DPS level they were before, then fine.  However, if they would be required to get Legendary or Fabled, then it would be a "gimping," as most casual players - heck, <b>most</b> players, casual or otherwise - will never see that kind of gear until the end-game.  If even then.</p><p>But let's say that did happen.  The bulk of the brawlers are able to acquire mastercradted weapons and see no dropp-off in DPS, or a minor enough one that it is made up with adornments and stats.  Two problems arise: first, the bare-handed folk are now out.  And enough of them exist, maybe in comrable numbers to end-game EoF raiders that are feeling put out upon.  And second, wouldn't that create an imbalance throughout the brawlers life where they ARE able to come up with Legendary or Fabled gear?  Would we be back to soloing white heroics?</p></blockquote><p> For a) I don't see what is so bad about having to buy weapons (like every other class). For b) You can still have the weaponless look by using fist wraps and some other fist weapons. I think the Legendary Closing Time, which is a very good pre-fabled weapon, is barehanded in appearance.</p><p>So, in response to your second paragraph, the bare-handed folk are not out, and I do not think a DPS increase would have us soloing anything that other classes can't do already. If you have poor armor you'll get beat to a pulp. If you have good armor you might survive, but no more or less so than a rogue in similarly good gear. Then there are the root/nuke casters and tainted heals necros and...and...and....</p><p>Lots of (but not all) classes can kill high 60s/70 heroics. That isn't a brawler problem, that's a wimpy heroics problem.</p>

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote>/cheer!!!  my bruiser may become my main once again if any of this actually happens.</blockquote> Nah, he won't be a bruiser anymore, just a scout-wannabe.</blockquote>LOL  - the last thing I want is for my bruiser to turn into my brigand.  I have one of those all ready, so, why would I want another?  No, all I want is a role on a raid and for people to stop asking me "hey, we can't find a tank, can you log on your brigand and run so and so?" when I'm on my bruiser.  I feel I've been forced to make my brig or even my Assasin alts my mains when I'd really rather be playing my bruiser.  Go stick your head back in the sand now, kthnks.

[Supp]

<p>I have a friend who rolled up a straight tank/aggro spec'd monk. He worked very hard on his avoidance and mitigation. And he was able to pull off respectable encounters, even some mild EoF raid tanking. Not MT per se, but offtank yes. </p><p>Then he rolled up an equivalent Guardian to see what all the hubub was. He said he was completely blown out of the water but how much easier it was to obtain and maintain aggro, to say nothing of survivability. Both in raid and in group instance.</p><p>Whenever people say we cant tank, Im sure what they really mean is that AA for AA, level for level, neither brawler would be preferred to MT a raid over any of the 4 plate tanks. So it's not to say we cant do it, it's that the other tank classes would be preferred.</p><p>But our situation is a little bit more dire than that in that we are (tankwise) far enough below the worst of those 4 (meaning the SK) so that it's not even a consideration much less a preference to go with a brawler. </p><p>When I rolled my brawler, I never had any tanking aspiration because even back when I created him in Nov05, there was this stigma against brawlers that stands today. I knew that going in and even wished to use that to my advantage because I wanted some scout like ability, but I did not want to be a scout, but I also didnt want to tank. So my swash/SK hybrid that is my bruiser made me happy in that respect. But I realize I am only one type of player. In all honesty, I dont think brawlers should be classified as tanks. If we were classified as scouts, I think there would be less friction, but 4 tanks and 8 scouts would make the archetype chart look all messy. Oh well.</p><p>In any case, yes I agree. I think they should give us more DPS and not remove what little tanking ability we have. I will point out that there are scouts that have taunts and FD.</p>

[Taiken]

<p>I need your support brawlers, please follow this link:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=372059�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...59�</a></p>

[vyxar]

Rogues have their cake and eat it too, sadly.

[Raca]

If you want more dps and less tanking play a different class and leave ours alone. Monks ruled in EQ1 till the nerf then they sucked, that ruined the game for many people that loved the class.

[Raca]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why should brawler deserve to get a free legendary to semi-fable weapon while leveling up?<b>If anyone wants a legendary weapon or fabled weapon, he should get it from mobs or buy it from broker.</b>Brawlers are totally screwed by those poor designs.<b>This game is all about progression. </b>It gave a wrong impression to casual players that brawler is powerful. It is not true! When I was leveling up, it's really hard to solo. It's impossible for anyone, not just brawler, to buy master craft weapons in the beginning of this game.All of my weapons/armors were quests reward or dropped from mobs since it's ultra hard to save money . I got my first 1p when I hit lv40. The first item I bought from a player is a lv 42 master craft weapon. After buying it, I have less than 1g left. I don't even buy player made food or drink until I hit lv60 in DoF.If you think brawler is too powerful to solo, you should try to kill mobs with treasure weapons rather than str line. It's a game breaking design and should be fixed.</blockquote>Have to say I dont feel sorry for you. I started this game a few months ago. I have had the nice lvl 42 52 62 master crafted and lotsa adept 3s and master 1's through out lvling. I solo very well and can farm with no deaths any zone I want thats still green to me and get tons of loot. About the only time I die is when a trap goes off after a fight and kills me or I get impatient and run too far without FDing mobs inbetween named. I am very much a casual player. Never had any ingame friends make me stuff and I've managed to do well soloing.

[Couching]

<cite>Raca wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why should brawler deserve to get a free legendary to semi-fable weapon while leveling up?<b>If anyone wants a legendary weapon or fabled weapon, he should get it from mobs or buy it from broker.</b>Brawlers are totally screwed by those poor designs.<b>This game is all about progression. </b>It gave a wrong impression to casual players that brawler is powerful. It is not true! When I was leveling up, it's really hard to solo. It's impossible for anyone, not just brawler, to buy master craft weapons in the beginning of this game.All of my weapons/armors were quests reward or dropped from mobs since it's ultra hard to save money . I got my first 1p when I hit lv40. The first item I bought from a player is a lv 42 master craft weapon. After buying it, I have less than 1g left. I don't even buy player made food or drink until I hit lv60 in DoF.If you think brawler is too powerful to solo, you should try to kill mobs with treasure weapons rather than str line. It's a game breaking design and should be fixed.</blockquote>Have to say I dont feel sorry for you. I started this game a few months ago. I have had the nice lvl 42 52 62 master crafted and lotsa adept 3s and master 1's through out lvling. I solo very well and can farm with no deaths any zone I want thats still green to me and get tons of loot. About the only time I die is when a trap goes off after a fight and kills me or I get impatient and run too far without FDing mobs inbetween named. I am very much a casual player. Never had any ingame friends make me stuff and I've managed to do well soloing.</blockquote> I said it's very hard to solo with treasure weapon/armor and adp 1 spells. Now, you told me you did very well with master crafted armors, lots adp3 and master CAs though out lving. What's your point then? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Novusod]

If they nerf anything it should be the brawler's over-powered solo'ing namely through FD'ing to quest updates and named. The brawler is the only class that gets weaker when it groups and weaker still when they go on raids. Give us increased tanking, give us increase dps, give us increased utility, give us something that gives guilds a reason to bring brawlers on raids. I don't want to rehash a bunch of old arguements about broken avoidance or non-scalable dps here but overall they need to make the class less anti-social. It is unacceptable to have a class that's only stong point is that is is good at solo'ing in a game that is meant to be played with other people.

[Kasar]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they nerf anything it should be the brawler's over-powered solo'ing namely through FD'ing to quest updates and named. The brawler is the only class that gets weaker when it groups and weaker still when they go on raids. Give us increased tanking, give us increase dps, give us increased utility, give us something that gives guilds a reason to bring brawlers on raids. I don't want to rehash a bunch of old arguements about broken avoidance or non-scalable dps here but overall they need to make the class less anti-social. It is unacceptable to have a class that's only stong point is that is is good at solo'ing in a game that is meant to be played with other people.</blockquote>Over 2k sustained dps with the right makeup and group FD on tap.  Dunno why monks wouldn't be wanted on raids.Bruisers OTOH..

[Raca]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raca wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why should brawler deserve to get a free legendary to semi-fable weapon while leveling up?<b>If anyone wants a legendary weapon or fabled weapon, he should get it from mobs or buy it from broker.</b>Brawlers are totally screwed by those poor designs.<b>This game is all about progression. </b>It gave a wrong impression to casual players that brawler is powerful. It is not true! When I was leveling up, it's really hard to solo. It's impossible for anyone, not just brawler, to buy master craft weapons in the beginning of this game.All of my weapons/armors were quests reward or dropped from mobs since it's ultra hard to save money . I got my first 1p when I hit lv40. The first item I bought from a player is a lv 42 master craft weapon. After buying it, I have less than 1g left. I don't even buy player made food or drink until I hit lv60 in DoF.If you think brawler is too powerful to solo, you should try to kill mobs with treasure weapons rather than str line. It's a game breaking design and should be fixed.</blockquote>Have to say I dont feel sorry for you. I started this game a few months ago. I have had the nice lvl 42 52 62 master crafted and lotsa adept 3s and master 1's through out lvling. I solo very well and can farm with no deaths any zone I want thats still green to me and get tons of loot. About the only time I die is when a trap goes off after a fight and kills me or I get impatient and run too far without FDing mobs inbetween named. I am very much a casual player. Never had any ingame friends make me stuff and I've managed to do well soloing.</blockquote> I said it's very hard to solo with treasure weapon/armor and adp 1 spells. Now, you told me you did very well with master crafted armors, lots adp3 and master CAs though out lving. What's your point then? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>My point is if you cant solo, then go farm some place get some plat saved up and buy mastercrafted and at least all adp 1 spells. You'll do very well with that set up. If you still can't solo then you're doing something wrong. Let me know your character name/server what times you usually play and I'll get on and see what I can do to help you get yourself geared up and ready to solo well.

[Couching]

<cite>Raca wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raca wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why should brawler deserve to get a free legendary to semi-fable weapon while leveling up?<b>If anyone wants a legendary weapon or fabled weapon, he should get it from mobs or buy it from broker.</b>Brawlers are totally screwed by those poor designs.<b>This game is all about progression. </b>It gave a wrong impression to casual players that brawler is powerful. It is not true! When I was leveling up, it's really hard to solo. It's impossible for anyone, not just brawler, to buy master craft weapons in the beginning of this game.All of my weapons/armors were quests reward or dropped from mobs since it's ultra hard to save money . I got my first 1p when I hit lv40. The first item I bought from a player is a lv 42 master craft weapon. After buying it, I have less than 1g left. I don't even buy player made food or drink until I hit lv60 in DoF.If you think brawler is too powerful to solo, you should try to kill mobs with treasure weapons rather than str line. It's a game breaking design and should be fixed.</blockquote>Have to say I dont feel sorry for you. I started this game a few months ago. I have had the nice lvl 42 52 62 master crafted and lotsa adept 3s and master 1's through out lvling. I solo very well and can farm with no deaths any zone I want thats still green to me and get tons of loot. About the only time I die is when a trap goes off after a fight and kills me or I get impatient and run too far without FDing mobs inbetween named. I am very much a casual player. Never had any ingame friends make me stuff and I've managed to do well soloing.</blockquote> I said it's very hard to solo with treasure weapon/armor and adp 1 spells. Now, you told me you did very well with master crafted armors, lots adp3 and master CAs though out lving. What's your point then? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>No I've always soloed well, pre 42 when I had crap for equipment I still could solo every quest I did minus some heroics, which are for groups anyways. <i>But anyone can get mastercrafted. If you dont have mastercrafted it's your own fault. </i>My point is if you cant solo, then go farm some place get some plat saved up and buy mastercrafted and at least all adp 1 spells. You'll do very well with that set up. If you still can't solo then you're doing something wrong.</blockquote>Lol, I know you will say that. You have no idea how stupid your statement is since this game is totally different from day one to current.You started this game few months and tried to compare your gaming experience with player playing this game in the day one? You are comparing apples to oranges.

[Raca]

I edited my statement

[Sheirark]

In all seriousness, i parse the same as a swash or brig in the same group as them (ie same group setup).  I don't see where u all are seeing this huge difference in rogue to bruiser dps.  I have no problem punching out a 2.5k parse on a raid encounter.  Oh it's 5 mobs, screw it crane flock throw all 3 of ur aoe's then use ur ca's no reason as a fabled raider u cant do 2k plus parses.  In the same respect, i can throw up defensive, and tank the unicorn on 2nd lvl of EH.  Bruisers are exactly what they are meant to be, a sort of hybrid between dps and a tank.  I hate to say it but u hafta spend time and L2P instead of posting and whining.  And if a zerker pally guard or sk out dps's me, then i was probably afk.... or tanking their mob : )

[tt66]

<cite>Sheirark wrote:</cite><blockquote>In all seriousness, i parse the same as a swash or brig in the same group as them (ie same group setup).  I don't see where u all are seeing this huge difference in rogue to bruiser dps.  </blockquote>You do the same dps as a swashbuckler in the same group? really?wow.You need to find some new scouts, because there is no <i>way</i> that should ever happen.

[Quicksilver74]

<p>This is the same old argument that has always happened.   DPS vs Tanking for brawlers.   The answer is that we are both.  We have good DPS, not super DPS... but good.  We have good Tanking ability, especially for grouping, but not the best for raids.  Thats the way it is.  </p><p>Now I think we should have some form of mitigation in our AA's to significatly help those who wish to tank a little more.  Either that or change the way avoidance tanking works.. but that won't happen for a long time.   Maybe never.  </p>

[Ganeden]

We don't need our tanking decreased at all and we do need our DPS increased.Brawlers need much superior armor and spells to tank unrest then every single other fighter class and yet numerous other fighter classes are able to out-dps us. Single target, burst or zone wide. Why should we get screwed even further tanking wise? We're already at the bottom of the barrel.But I'm fine to be at the bottom of the tanking barrel, but I should be, any way you look at it (zone wide, single target, burst) be able to beat other fighter easily.Brigands can sadly come pretty dang close to our tanking ability, which is absolutely pathetic.If we cannot get our DPS increased, then the other fighters need theirs nerfed and brigands need their tanking AAs nerfed. Brawlers are outclassed in every facet of the game except soloing. Compared to other fighters we cannot tank, dps or raid better then them. Most also have better utility in groups to boot.Suggested fixes: Make str AA line double attack usable for all weapons. Increase ONLY brawlers base DPS modifier. Increase CA damage. Greatly increase barehanded damage and let us put adornments on our fists, I don't care at all if I'm pigeon holed into a weapon if it will fix my class. If we can't get a dps increase give us some SERIOUS raid utility (raid wide FD would be awesome).Those are my complaints and suggestions. I always post on these threads and I will keep beating this drum until brawlers are fixed.

[Ganeden]

<cite>Sheirark wrote:</cite><blockquote>In all seriousness, i parse the same as a swash or brig in the same group as them (ie same group setup).  I don't see where u all are seeing this huge difference in rogue to bruiser dps.  I have no problem punching out a 2.5k parse on a raid encounter.  Oh it's 5 mobs, screw it crane flock throw all 3 of ur aoe's then use ur ca's no reason as a fabled raider u cant do 2k plus parses.  In the same respect, i can throw up defensive, and tank the unicorn on 2nd lvl of EH.  Bruisers are exactly what they are meant to be, a sort of hybrid between dps and a tank.  I hate to say it but u hafta spend time and L2P instead of posting and whining.  And if a zerker pally guard or sk out dps's me, then i was probably afk.... or tanking their mob : )</blockquote>You have no problem getting a 2.5k parse? On what, a 30 second fight? Show me a log from a serious boss mob fight with you getting this much DPS, unless you have a perfect group with everyone catering to only you it won't happen.If you out parse a brigand or swashie in any situation then they weren't really trying or they suck. Challenge the brigand/swash to out dps you on a boss mob, they will win or they suck.I have a hard time believing you're even raiding in EH, at the very least you're not raiding on a brawler as any swash or brig that would be good enough to be in a guild raiding EH (i know from experience here, i have parse logs and will post) should murder you in a parse, single target OR zone wide. I'm guessing you're a fighter who doesn't want to get nerfed or have brawlers significantly out dpsing them.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Quicksilver74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is the same old argument that has always happened.   DPS vs Tanking for brawlers.   The answer is that we are both.  We have good DPS, not super DPS... but good.  We have good Tanking ability, especially for grouping, but not the best for raids.  Thats the way it is. </p></blockquote>No. Swashies are both DPS and tanks. Brawlers are worse than them in both cases.Now would you agree that predators should be outparsing rogues? Sorcerers? Summoners even? Yes, I think so too.However my guild has a swashy that is basically outparsing everyone. He does 50% more DPS than I do with my monk and even I am outparsing over half of my guilds sorcerers, summoners, predators and rogues.Yes, I can outparse several rogues with my monk. However this one case proves that swashies have potential to do far more DPS than what I can. Also I have yet to find a brawler that would have outparsed me (I know there are lots, they just haven't raided with me) but I have been raiding with rogues, predators, summoners and sorcerers who can outparse me by a big margin. If they cant, then it is an issue with group setup, gear and/or skill.But since the rogues are much higher DPS than brawlers and they are better tanks, well, I must diasgree with the headline. Brawlers need better tanking ability and higher DPS. Or no change on tanking and MUCH higher DPS.

[Wy]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quicksilver74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is the same old argument that has always happened.   DPS vs Tanking for brawlers.   The answer is that we are both.  We have good DPS, not super DPS... but good.  We have good Tanking ability, especially for grouping, but not the best for raids.  Thats the way it is. </p></blockquote>No. Swashies are both DPS and tanks. Brawlers are worse than them in both cases.Now would you agree that predators should be outparsing rogues? Sorcerers? Summoners even? Yes, I think so too.However my guild has a swashy that is basically outparsing everyone. He does 50% more DPS than I do with my monk and even I am outparsing over half of my guilds sorcerers, summoners, predators and rogues.Yes, I can outparse several rogues with my monk. However this one case proves that swashies have potential to do far more DPS than what I can. Also I have yet to find a brawler that would have outparsed me (I know there are lots, they just haven't raided with me) but I have been raiding with rogues, predators, summoners and sorcerers who can outparse me by a big margin. If they cant, then it is an issue with group setup, gear and/or skill.But since the rogues are much higher DPS than brawlers and they are better tanks, well, I must diasgree with the headline. Brawlers need better tanking ability and higher DPS. Or no change on tanking and MUCH higher DPS.</blockquote> Agreed with that last line. I think SoE should make a decision on what exactly the class should be instead of keeping people 'on the line' and unsure if they're even playing a class worth the time, raidwise. I would have appreciated a note at the end of the description saying "NO GOOD FOR RAIDS" when I was making my new character if this was the one class that isn't meant to be raiding. ._.

[Madmoon]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No. Swashies are both DPS and tanks. Brawlers are worse than them in both cases......</p><p>But since the rogues are much higher DPS than brawlers and they are better tanks, well, I must diasgree with the headline. Brawlers need better tanking ability and higher DPS. Or no change on tanking and MUCH higher DPS.</p></blockquote>Bunk.  Rogues <i>can </i>tank, if they spec their AAs that way, if all tanking is sitting there getting hit - the gods forbid you lose agro!  But why would they?  Do they often get pressed into service as a tank?  Even then, two comparably equipped and skilled adventurers, one a rogue, one a bruiser, there's no way any group would chose the rogue.  This hooey keeps coming up, and it's just not true.  Brawlers are <b>far</b> superior tanks.

[tt66]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No. Swashies are both DPS and tanks. Brawlers are worse than them in both cases......</p><p>But since the rogues are much higher DPS than brawlers and they are better tanks, well, I must diasgree with the headline. Brawlers need better tanking ability and higher DPS. Or no change on tanking and MUCH higher DPS.</p></blockquote>Bunk.  Rogues <i>can </i>tank, if they spec their AAs that way, if all tanking is sitting there getting hit - the gods forbid you lose agro!  But why would they?  Do they often get pressed into service as a tank?  Even then, two comparably equipped and skilled adventurers, one a rogue, one a bruiser, there's no way any group would chose the rogue.  This hooey keeps coming up, and it's just not true.  Brawlers are <b>far</b> superior tanks.</blockquote><b>Far </b>superior? I'd question that. The rogue STA line is really quite impressive. If anything, a STA-specc'd rogue will keep aggro better than a brawler.. not only do they do better DPS, but their proc taunt is when they are hit<i>,</i> rather than on a successful hit meaning that they can both tank in defensive stance without penalty <i>and </i>hold better group-aggro.As for chain mitigation + shield vs leather + avoidance, I'd say it's about even. I haven't done any high end tanking testing with my swashie yet, so I'll have to defer to other peoples experience if they disagree. Heck, they've even got an intercede line! Pretty much the only concrete advantage brawlers can point to is that they don't have a version of rescue!

[Madmoon]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Far </b>superior? I'd question that. The rogue STA line is really quite impressive. If anything, a STA-specc'd rogue will keep aggro better than a brawler.. not only do they do better DPS, but their proc taunt is when they are hit<i>,</i> rather than on a successful hit meaning that they can both tank in defensive stance without penalty <i>and </i>hold better group-aggro.As for chain mitigation + shield vs leather + avoidance, I'd say it's about even. I haven't done any high end tanking testing with my swashie yet, so I'll have to defer to other peoples experience if they disagree. Heck, they've even got an intercede line! Pretty much the only concrete advantage brawlers can point to is that they don't have a version of rescue! </blockquote>A rogue dolled up like this can serve, in a pinch.  Especially in "normal" content.  But they don't come close to a brawler in Health, which plays a great role in some of the harder content, like the instance dungeons.  And - correct me if I am wrong, I often am - they don't get a group <i>and</i> single target taunt.  We have more ways of maintaining agro, plus our new ability to enhance agro Arts makes us even more effective.  A rogue and brawler in a group would be better served in the brawler maintaining agro and the the rogue using his or her agro shedding Arts.  Both would be enhanced by our  "Agro-enhancer."  I think you would be hard pressed to find many groups where they would chose a rogue over a brawler.  Can they serve as a lead fighter?  Yes, and probably well.  As well as a brawler?  Likely not.  And does it happen, is that the choice people would make?  No, I don't believe so.

[Prrasha]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>And - correct me if I am wrong, I often am - they don't get a group <i>and</i> single target taunt.  </blockquote>A group taunt is the 2nd thing in the STA/tanking AA line.  The recast on their single target taunt is inferior to a normal fighter's taunt, but a rogue probably doesn't need a fast-recast single target taunt with their single target DPS.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Far </b>superior? I'd question that. The rogue STA line is really quite impressive. If anything, a STA-specc'd rogue will keep aggro better than a brawler.. not only do they do better DPS, but their proc taunt is when they are hit<i>,</i> rather than on a successful hit meaning that they can both tank in defensive stance without penalty <i>and </i>hold better group-aggro.As for chain mitigation + shield vs leather + avoidance, I'd say it's about even. I haven't done any high end tanking testing with my swashie yet, so I'll have to defer to other peoples experience if they disagree. Heck, they've even got an intercede line! Pretty much the only concrete advantage brawlers can point to is that they don't have a version of rescue! </blockquote>A rogue dolled up like this can serve, in a pinch.  Especially in "normal" content.  But they don't come close to a brawler in Health, which plays a great role in some of the harder content, like the instance dungeons.  And - correct me if I am wrong, I often am - they don't get a group <i>and</i> single target taunt.  We have more ways of maintaining agro, plus our new ability to enhance agro Arts makes us even more effective.  A rogue and brawler in a group would be better served in the brawler maintaining agro and the the rogue using his or her agro shedding Arts.  Both would be enhanced by our  "Agro-enhancer."  I think you would be hard pressed to find many groups where they would chose a rogue over a brawler.  Can they serve as a lead fighter?  Yes, and probably well.  As well as a brawler?  Likely not.  And does it happen, is that the choice people would make?  No, I don't believe so.</blockquote>Lots of conjecture madmoon, and without even knowing the rogue tank line.  It does give them a group taunt, and they already have a single target taunt as a normal CA. It also increases their health substantially.  No rogue goes 'all tank' generally so I dont think many if any people have ever seen the true tanking potential and HP potential of a rogue.  Their HP is increased by I believe 13% when tank specc'd.  This will put them very close to a brawler if they wear HP gear, and even closer when they're given HP buffs from templars and shamans, as the 13% increase applies to those buffs also.  Imagine if a rogue actually took the 2.5% hp character traits too....Oh and brigands do get a rescue--increase hate positions by up to 4 with AA. 

[Madmoon]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lots of conjecture madmoon, and without even knowing the rogue tank line.  It does give them a group taunt, and they already have a single target taunt as a normal CA. It also increases their health substantially.  No rogue goes 'all tank' generally so I dont think many if any people have ever seen the true tanking potential and HP potential of a rogue.  Their HP is increased by I believe 13% when tank specc'd.  This will put them very close to a brawler if they wear HP gear, and even closer when they're given HP buffs from templars and shamans, as the 13% increase applies to those buffs also.  Imagine if a rogue actually took the 2.5% hp character traits too....Oh and brigands do get a rescue--increase hate positions by up to 4 with AA.  </blockquote><p>You don't have to know every CA/AA to be able to reason it out accurately.  As to HPs, "if they wear HP gear, and even closer when they're given HP buffs from templars and shamans, as the 13% increase applies to those buffs also," these are all things we can do, too, and still remain far ahead of a rogue "tank."  I don't doubt they can be outfitted that way, and even serve well enough as a "tank."  But then so can a conjuror pet (not as well as a rogue, but it <i>can</i> serve.)  But if a group has the option of getting a bruiser or even a monk, they will over a rogue as a lead fighter.  That's not conjecture.  It would also take quite a setup of gear to allow them (the rogues) to work in both fields effectively, though they could swap out as needed.  All that to get to the point where they are close to what a bruiser is, without all that tweaking and potential "gimping" of your primary role.</p><p>Be that as it may, it does sound fun!  Maybe I'll meet some rogue dolled up like this and we can put it to the test.  Until then, I hope they keep their positional skills sharp, since all a rogue gets to see of the monster is it's back.  Not that they mind.</p>

[tt66]

Well, my little swashie is now in the mid 40s, so let's see what the STA line does :1) +24 STA2) a ~500 threat encounter taunt3) increases max health by 6% and shield effectiveness by 12%4) a 56 DPS mod, if wearing a roundshield.5) increases chance to block by 4%, max health by 5%, physical mit by 220, and a 50% chance to gain 210 hate when damaged.Anyway you look at it, that's impressive.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lots of conjecture madmoon, and without even knowing the rogue tank line.  It does give them a group taunt, and they already have a single target taunt as a normal CA. It also increases their health substantially.  No rogue goes 'all tank' generally so I dont think many if any people have ever seen the true tanking potential and HP potential of a rogue.  Their HP is increased by I believe 13% when tank specc'd.  This will put them very close to a brawler if they wear HP gear, and even closer when they're given HP buffs from templars and shamans, as the 13% increase applies to those buffs also.  Imagine if a rogue actually took the 2.5% hp character traits too....Oh and brigands do get a rescue--increase hate positions by up to 4 with AA.  </blockquote><p>As to HPs, "if they wear HP gear, and even closer when they're given HP buffs from templars and shamans, as the 13% increase applies to those buffs also," these are all things we can do, too, and still remain far ahead of a rogue "tank."  I don't doubt they can be outfitted that way, and even serve well enough as a "tank."  But then so can a conjuror pet (not as well as a rogue, but it <i>can</i> serve.) </p></blockquote>I think you're missing the point here - they gain more HP per hitpoint from gear and buffs because of their percentage bonus to HP.  Thus no conj or brawler can in fact do what they do and always remain ahead. There is a point at which the percentage bonus to HP will place them ahead of the other classes. 

[Couching]

Moreover, if a brawler wants to increase his tanking capability, mitigation suit is the way to go rather than hp suit. Though, for rogue and plate tanks, they can get hp suit over mitigation suit since they can hit mitigation diminishing return and extra mitigation is pointless for them.

[Anjin]

<p>Plate tanks hit diminishing returns quite easily, although as the mitigation difference between plate and chain is FAR greater than chain and leather, rogues are far less likely to hit mitigation diminishing returns.</p><p>Examples below for EoF fabled items:</p><p>Plate normal:530Plate BP/Legs:568</p><p>Chain normal: 365Chain BP/Legs: 391</p><p>Leather normal:298Leather BP/Legs:320</p><p>So all gear added up:</p><p>Plate:3786Chain:2607Leather:2130</p><p>Differences</p><p>plate and chain = 1179chain and leather = 477</p>

[Madmoon]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think you're missing the point here (<span style="color: #0000ff;">wouldn't be the first time <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Madmoon</span><span style="color: #ffffff;">) </span>- they gain more HP per hitpoint from gear and buffs because of their percentage bonus to HP.  Thus no conj or brawler can in fact do what they do and always remain ahead. There is a point at which the percentage bonus to HP will place them ahead of the other classes.  </blockquote>Yah, but even with all that gear, do you think rogues get near bruisers?  I have Legendary gear, no Fabled, and I usually have more HPs than other fighters.  My traits were all hit point focused, but I don't go shopping for HP gear, I just wear the best of what I have.  I have never seen other classes come near me.  Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but comparably equipped, can rogues have more HPs than bruisers?