Issue: Overuse of Xegonberry in Provisioner Recipes

[evhallion]

<p>I think a change needs to be made in provisioner recipes to not require one harvest more than any of the others. Lets look at a recipe breakdown with the other T7 bush harvest:</p><p><b>Xegonberry:</b></p><ol><li>Gigglegibbery Juice  </li><li>Bosprite's Squash Muffins</li><li>Bosprite Wine</li><li>Flying Freddy </li><li>Dancing Halfling </li><li>Squash Pie </li><li>Squash Cobbler </li><li>Rosewood Sling </li><li>Narcoleptic Sweet-Talk </li><li>Xegonberry Sorbet </li><li>Xegonberry Cobbler </li><li>Xegonberry Brandy </li><li>Xegonberry Wine</li><li>Xegonberry Pie</li><li>Xegonberry Fudge</li><li>Xegonberry Cookie</li><li>Xegonberry Juice</li><li>Xegonberry Sparkling Juice</li><li>Xegonberry Cheesecake</li><li>Chocolate Covered Xegonberry</li><li>Grilled Flying Fish </li></ol><p><b>Soaring Coffee Bean:</b></p><ol><li>Iced Black-Eye Chai </li><li>Black-Eye Chai </li><li>Soaring Espresso</li><li>Soaring Espresso Macchiato</li><li>Soaring Espresso Latte</li><li>Soaring Cappuccino</li></ol><p> <b>Sweet Chai Tea Leaf:</b></p><ol><li>Gigglegibbery Juice </li><li>Flying Freddy </li><li>Dancing Halfling </li><li>Narcoleptic Sweet-Talk </li><li>Iced Black-Eye Chai </li><li>Black-Eye Chai</li><li>Sweet Chai Tea</li><li>Sparkling Sweet Iced Chai Tea</li></ol><p> <b>Squash:</b></p><ol><li>Squash Beer</li><li>Bosprite's Squash Muffins</li><li>Bosprite Wine </li><li>Seasoned Flying Fish Rolls </li><li>Flying Freddy </li><li>Flying Fish Stew </li><li>Squash Pie </li><li>Squash Cobbler </li><li>Rosewood Sling </li><li>Narcoleptic Sweet-Talk </li><li>Squash Cider </li></ol><p><i><span style="font-size: xx-small">Note: may of missed some of the newer recipes but the average will still favor Xegonberry</span></i></p><p>As you can see the Xegonberry dominates the recipe book in T7. This in turn causes the Xegonberry to sell for gold on the broker while all other provisioner harvest sell for copper and sometimes a little silver. I feel that if one harvestable is going to be so dominate it should have it's own node, the Xegonberry bush, instead of being lumped in with the rest. Much like hanging roots. I get so tired of having bags full of Squash, Sweet Chai Tea Leaf & Soaring Coffee Bean that I can't justify the fuel price to craft with unless I use them in a Xegonberry recipe. The recipes they have by themself can barely be sold for any profit and the fuel would be better used to craft one of the better selling Xegonberry recipes. I strongly feel this is an issue that needs to be looked into. Anyone with constructive ideas on how to fix this? </p>

[Pexsus]

<p>The problem isnt the Number of recipes that use xegonberries.  In most cases everyone looks for high duration(5+hour) food/drink.  In most cases players will only use food/drink with stats.  This leaves the majority of the server looking for food made from 4 recipes.  In Tier 7 if you make 1 of each of the high end food/drink you use 9 Xegonberries, 5 Squash, 3 Root, 3 Tea, 2 Fish, 1 aviak meat, 1 ravasect meat, 0 Coffee.  Taking just the items that drop from bushes, assuming there is a 1:1 drop rate among all the resources you would have to destroy, trash craft or sell mountains of raws just to pull the xegonberries you need.  Until you balance the use of the raws available across the high-end recipes it will inflate the price of not only the raws, but the product made from those raws hurting both crafters and players.  So what if a bunch of 2 hour food uses xegonberries, noone wants it anyway.  It just means you trash a bunch of one raw to level up.</p><p>That's my $0.02</p>

[Domino]

I agree!  One of the first things I checked into when I looked at harvest ratios was whether in fact the mythical xegonberry is more "rare" than the other harvested foods.  It isn't; they're all exactly equal in chance to get.  The imbalance occurs because the xegonberries are used in far greater numbers than the other items, particularly in the more desirable recipes. This is something we're going to take care to avoid with the 70-80 recipes, and something that we hope to address by adding in more recipes requiring non-xegonberry harvests when time permits (and eventually similar for lower levels too).  That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher.

[brightenblade]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree!  One of the first things I checked into when I looked at harvest ratios was whether in fact the mythical xegonberry is more "rare" than the other harvested foods.  It isn't; they're all exactly equal in chance to get.  The imbalance occurs because the xegonberries are used in far greater numbers than the other items, particularly in the more desirable recipes. </blockquote>I know it would just be a "quick fix" but I would think Increasing the chance to get Xegonberries compared to other Raws from a node would help out alot, Untill the new Recipes can be added.

[Bloodfa]

<makes mental note to begin harvesting for foodstuffs in T7 zones>

[Nivmizzet]

This is one of the most lucrative harvests I know of.  An hour from harvesting xegonberries on (umentioned) island can bring you in at least over a plat.

[KerowynnKaotic]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree!  One of the first things I checked into when I looked at harvest ratios was whether in fact the mythical xegonberry is more "rare" than the other harvested foods.  It isn't; they're all exactly equal in chance to get.  The imbalance occurs because the xegonberries are used in far greater numbers than the other items, particularly in the more desirable recipes. This is something we're going to take care to avoid with the 70-80 recipes, and something that we hope to address by adding in more recipes requiring non-xegonberry harvests when time permits (and eventually similar for lower levels too).  That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher. </blockquote><p> Something you can also do when you get the time .. </p><p>Is to tweak the actual recipes for T7.  </p><p>Example:  </p><ul><li>T7 - Gigglegibbery Juice:  3 xegonberries, 3 Chai leaves & 10 Fuel (5hr3m)</li><li>T6 - Desert Fever:  2 Maj'dul Beans, 2 Prickly Pears, 1 Soluble loam, 1 succulent root & 10 Fuels (5hr3m)</li></ul><p>Change it to: </p><ul><li>T7 - Gigglegibbery Juice: 2 xegonberries, 2 chai leaves, 1 Poruous Loam & 1 Hanging Root. </li><li>T7 - Bosprite Wine:  2 xegonberries, 2 squash, 1 Porous Loam & 1 Hanging Root.</li><li>T7 - Dancing Halfing: 2 xegonberries, 2 chai leaves, 1 Porous Loam ... etc ... etc .. </li></ul><p>Slightly lessen the berries and bring it in line with the previous tiers ... </p><p>(<i>though I don't have a problem finding Xegonberries .. I have a dozen(+) stacks of them waiting .. I have problems finding Squash .. /shrug</i>)</p><p>None of the T7 drinks use Roots or Loam. (<i>according to my master list, my provo is only 62</i>)  The T7 Foods use a few Roots.   Whereas after the big change all the lower level food/drink were redid to incorporate both Loam & Root.   T7 in general is one big mixed up muddle.   (refering to several issues with Sage, Alchemists and Provos)</p><p>--- </p><p>Those Cheesecakes and Dipped fruits are only good for pristine bonus, though.   They don't sell well .. some of them cost nearly 40s to create 2 .. who's going to pay 30s for something that lasts only 30(+) mins, doesn't provide stats and isn't a drink?   Maybe, they are a good seller on a Roleplaying server but I have yet to have any of mine sell, which isn't too surprising since there are several pages of them for sale .. at either cost or below cost to create ..  </p><p>Nice fodder but fodder none the less .. </p><p>Maybe Chocolate [Coffee] shakes?  Coco, Milk, Coffee bean ... 30 mins non stat drink ?   Non stat drinks sell well to crafters .. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>OhOH!  Call them the "Crafters Choice  [ coffee bean ] Chocolate Energy Drink" ?  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[LibraTari]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree!  One of the first things I checked into when I looked at harvest ratios was whether in fact the mythical xegonberry is more "rare" than the other harvested foods.  It isn't; they're all exactly equal in chance to get.  The imbalance occurs because the xegonberries are used in far greater numbers than the other items, particularly in the more desirable recipes. This is something we're going to take care to avoid with the 70-80 recipes, and something that we hope to address by adding in more recipes requiring non-xegonberry harvests when time permits (and eventually similar for lower levels too).  That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher. </blockquote><p>Sweet, just to let you know. I went into T7 nodes with nothing in my bags at all and came out with more xegonberries then any other and actually the sweet chi leaf is actually more rare then the others. The problem is that the top two drinks require the similar ingredients. When making the T8 foods .. please have recipes in each level that actually require different ingredients. </p><p> For example:</p><p>4 items can be harvested from a bush node. A, B, C, and D  </p><p>2 from the meat E, and F</p><p>2 from the fish G and H</p><p>1 from the root node I</p><p>for lvl 79 recipes there will be 4 different ones ... There are so many different combinations that you can choose from .... recipes 1 will have A, E, G and I   </p><p>2. B, F and H</p><p>3. C and G</p><p>4. D, F and I</p><p>see the top level recipes will have only 1 ingredient from the bush node which will make each one worth the same amount if people sell it. </p>

[evhallion]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree!  One of the first things I checked into when I looked at harvest ratios was whether in fact the mythical xegonberry is more "rare" than the other harvested foods.  It isn't; they're all exactly equal in chance to get.  The imbalance occurs because the xegonberries are used in far greater numbers than the other items, particularly in the more desirable recipes. This is something we're going to take care to avoid with the 70-80 recipes, and something that we hope to address by adding in more recipes requiring non-xegonberry harvests when time permits (and eventually similar for lower levels too).  That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher. </blockquote> As always thanx for your prompt reply Domino and I'm glad to see you're aware and on top of it. I have done enough harvesting in  mass quanties (1000+) that I know over time all harvest will come out even. It looks like it favors one harvest or another when you start out but if you keep going long enough you'll see it change and the harvest you weren't getting much of will catch up to the others. Though I would of liked to have been able to use your method (look at the code) to find that out. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think <b><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #afc2d2">brightenblade</span></span></b> had a good idea for a "quick fix" til your long term fixes can be put in place. Slightly increase the harvest chance of Xegonberries compared to other Raws from a node. Can this be acomplished as easy at it seems? Is it something you'd actually consider for a "quick fix" ?

[evhallion]

KerowynnKaotic wrote: <blockquote><p>OhOH!  Call them the "Crafters Choice  [ coffee bean ] Chocolate Energy Drink" ?  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> lol had to tell ya that one put a smile on my face. That is an item i'd make for personal use.

[Rijacki]

Sarafan@The Bazaar wrote: <blockquote>KerowynnKaotic wrote: <blockquote><p>OhOH!  Call them the "Crafters Choice  [ coffee bean ] Chocolate Energy Drink" ?  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> lol had to tell ya that one put a smile on my face. That is an item i'd make for personal use.</blockquote> Me, too, no stats, long lasting... oh yes.

[VolgaDark]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree!  One of the first things I checked into when I looked at harvest ratios was whether in fact the mythical xegonberry is more "rare" than the other harvested foods.  It isn't; they're all exactly equal in chance to get.  The imbalance occurs because the xegonberries are used in far greater numbers than the other items, particularly in the more desirable recipes. This is something we're going to take care to avoid with the 70-80 recipes, and something that we hope to address by adding in more recipes requiring non-xegonberry harvests when time permits (and eventually similar for lower levels too).  That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher. </blockquote> <p>This is awesome! Thank you so much Lady Domino!</p><p>And while the raws distribution & usage is being discussed, would it be too much to ask that t-8 is more "logical" and "tasty" then previous tiers? What I mean by this is illogical usage of raws in many recipes.</p><p>An example of some "nasty tasting" stuff we cook:</p><p>t-5 makes us add coffee in to meat dishes! <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And to make it even more strange t-5 HAS mushrooms which would have been an awesome choice to go with meat...</p><p>t-3 has a drink made with pig meat! Nasty! Nasty! Nasty! lol </p><p>I'm at work atm so those are the only two of the top of my head (there are more), but I think it does illustrate the point. Also the non-edible stuff we add to our food/drinks .... Must we continue to do so in t-8? </p><p>Maybe I'm just weird but if the recipe sounds appetizing I have so much more fun making it in game. </p>

[Terron]

<cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher. </blockquote> <p>This is awesome! Thank you so much Lady Domino!</p><p>And while the raws distribution & usage is being discussed, would it be too much to ask that t-8 is more "logical" and "tasty" then previous tiers? What I mean by this is illogical usage of raws in many recipes.</p><p>An example of some "nasty tasting" stuff we cook:</p><p>t-5 makes us add coffee in to meat dishes! <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And to make it even more strange t-5 HAS mushrooms which would have been an awesome choice to go with meat...</p><p>t-3 has a drink made with pig meat! Nasty! Nasty! Nasty! lol </p></blockquote>Whilst I agree in general please don't just add recipes for halfling (and human) tastes. Trolls have to drink too and meat based drinks seem entirely suitable for them. Lets have milkshakes for Kerrans, cheeseburgers for Ratongans, steak tartare for trolls ... Maybe breaded arachnid legs and fried insect wings for Frogloks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[VolgaDark]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote> Whilst I agree in general please don't just add recipes for halfling (and human) tastes. Trolls have to drink too and meat based drinks seem entirely suitable for them. Lets have milkshakes for Kerrans, cheeseburgers for Ratongans, steak tartare for trolls ... Maybe breaded arachnid legs and fried insect wings for Frogloks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> <p>ewwwwwwww grose! <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>/roflmao  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But I do see your point. Maybe the "creative" recipes could be mid-range in duration then? So that way they would be RPing option but not force-fed to the masses... but yes I do see your point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[beladi]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher. </blockquote> <p>This is awesome! Thank you so much Lady Domino!</p><p>And while the raws distribution & usage is being discussed, would it be too much to ask that t-8 is more "logical" and "tasty" then previous tiers? What I mean by this is illogical usage of raws in many recipes.</p><p>An example of some "nasty tasting" stuff we cook:</p><p>t-5 makes us add coffee in to meat dishes! <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And to make it even more strange t-5 HAS mushrooms which would have been an awesome choice to go with meat...</p><p>t-3 has a drink made with pig meat! Nasty! Nasty! Nasty! lol </p></blockquote>Whilst I agree in general please don't just add recipes for halfling (and human) tastes. Trolls have to drink too and meat based drinks seem entirely suitable for them. Lets have milkshakes for Kerrans, cheeseburgers for Ratongans, steak tartare for trolls ... Maybe breaded arachnid legs and fried insect wings for Frogloks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>   In EQ1 there were recipes like meat-based drinks - suitable for a troll - that gave really nice boosts to stamina and other stats and were quite popular for tanks to use while on raids.   Things I also miss - cookies baked in the shape of different races,  Nothing like a Barbarian shaped or gnome shaped cookie!    There were brownies, made with real brownie parts, which made me laugh when I realized I had to hunt brownies to get the stuff to make those.  Wedding Cake, which was a huge thing for those of us who did RP weddings and events.   Many recipes had creme sauce which had to be made seperately, then combined with various meats.   There were also racial meats that dropped when you killed NPC's that made things like 'Blackened Teir'dal' to gave an Int boost.    I guess the devs of EQ2 decided to take a step away from cannibalism.   <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I would love to see a slant towards more recipes being longer lasting at least in this game and having a better end effect on stats.   The good stat recipes in EQ1 didn't require ultra rare ingredients, but maybe an extra step in making them, such as preparing a creme sauce and then adding it to meat.   The stuff for the creme sauce was found on the merchant. 

[ke'la]

<p>One thing I think Provis should get and this would make more use of Inedible Raws(atleast to humans) is to give them the ablity to make Decritive Food, much like the frostfell stuff, that also granted T1 "Fluff" food on click. Eventhough I am a carpenter by trade and those types of recipies usually fall into my class, I can't see going to a Funiture Store to by a Decritive Wedding Cake, I would go to a Cake Maker, and have them decorate some Styrofoam. Now making cake pans, and stoves and such does fall into the Funiture Catigory but I don't think that Devritive food should.</p>

[denmom]

<cite>KerowynnKaotic wrote:</cite><blockquote>None of the T7 drinks use Roots or Loam. (<i>according to my master list, my provo is only 62</i>)  The T7 Foods use a few Roots.   Whereas after the big change all the lower level food/drink were redid to incorporate both Loam & Root.   T7 in general is one big mixed up muddle.   (refering to several issues with Sage, Alchemists and Provos)</blockquote> I've a L70 Provie...two recipes call for azurite clusters and, I kid you not, severed rosewood. I don't recall ever using loam but I do use roots in the 5 hr L69 food and drink.

[Terron]

<cite>beladi wrote:</cite><blockquote>There were also racial meats that dropped when you killed NPC's that made things like 'Blackened Teir'dal' to gave an Int boost.    I guess the devs of EQ2 decided to take a step away from cannibalism.   <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>There is a vendor in Freeport who sells things like gnome pickles. My troll alt carries some to offer to anyone who asks for some food.

[Nink]

<p>It is not just Xegonberries in T7 that are the problem, as a provisioner I saw this throughout all the tiers starting with Fayberries.</p><p>At each tier there is one raw that is used more than the others. Once the masses work it out then the price of that raw goes through the roof they then complain about the price of food and drink on the broker.</p>

[Estean1]

<p>Maybe I was hallucinating or dreaming while I was grinding up my provisioner but isn't there actually like 2 recipes that required Metal?  I swear I saw that.. or maybe I was in a coma from tradeskilling too long and had started to hallucinate.  </p>

[rumblepants]

<cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree!  One of the first things I checked into when I looked at harvest ratios was whether in fact the mythical xegonberry is more "rare" than the other harvested foods.  It isn't; they're all exactly equal in chance to get.  The imbalance occurs because the xegonberries are used in far greater numbers than the other items, particularly in the more desirable recipes. This is something we're going to take care to avoid with the 70-80 recipes, and something that we hope to address by adding in more recipes requiring non-xegonberry harvests when time permits (and eventually similar for lower levels too).  That's also one reason the new cheesecake, chocolate, and fudge recipes used just the one fruit and weren't high-stat items -- it really didn't make sense to make chocolate-dipped squash or ravasect meat fudge (bleh!) from a taste point of view, but we didn't want to increase the demand for the berries even higher. </blockquote><p><b>t-5 makes us add coffee in to meat dishes! <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And to make it even more strange t-5 HAS mushrooms which would have been an awesome choice to go with meat...</b></p></blockquote> In reality that's actually a valid recipe. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can massage a little coffee grind into a steak before you grill it.

[Koltr]

Regarding harvesting drops...I have  a simple question. Is the content of the node determined at the time of harvest or at the time of node generation? I have seen toons clear an entire area thinking that the latter was the case, although I have been under the assumption that the content was determined on random roll at the time of harvest.

[Calthine]

<cite>Koltran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regarding harvesting drops...I have  a simple question. Is the content of the node determined at the time of harvest or at the time of node generation? I have seen toons clear an entire area thinking that the latter was the case, although I have been under the assumption that the content was determined on random roll at the time of harvest. </blockquote> I think it's at time of harvest.  In Beta rares would always come on the first pull, and forever afterwards when the game went live you'd get "node skimmers", who only took the first pull trying to get rares. 

[Lishara]

Is there any possibility to returning to the less generic recipes provisioners used to have?  Where meat recipes gave tank like stats, cakes gave wizzie stats, cookies healer stats, fish scout stats, etc (those might not be what they actually were, but you get the idea).  I never understood the logic of completely removing that versatility in the provisioner recipes.

[denmom]

<cite>Estean1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe I was hallucinating or dreaming while I was grinding up my provisioner but isn't there actually like 2 recipes that required Metal?  I swear I saw that.. or maybe I was in a coma from tradeskilling too long and had started to hallucinate.  </p></blockquote>You're correct. Azurite clusters and severed rosewood were required for one level's recipes. I remember this because I had to raid my Alchemist and Sage for azurite clusters and severed rosewood for my Provie, but can't remember the level...somewhere in the middle, I think in the latter part of the tier.