has this expansion killed anyones motivation for raiding now?

[Ravaan]

<p>I mean really whats the point? even the best gear will be worthless once the new level cap is put in ...and the uber gear now will probably be worthless by level 74ish.</p><p>maybe its me but i havent raided since the expansion was announced and i dont even know if i will get the expansion since theres really nothing game changing to it. Just same more zones more levels crap.</p>

[Cusashorn]

It's a never-ending battle. Just keep going for the best gear you can get so it'll be easier to survive and get all the best gear you can get in the next expansion.

[retro_guy]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I mean really whats the point? even the best gear will be worthless once the new level cap is put in ...and the uber gear now will probably be worthless by level 74ish.</p><p>maybe its me but i havent raided since the expansion was announced and i dont even know if i will get the expansion since theres really nothing game changing to it. Just same more zones more levels crap.</p></blockquote> No it hasn't reduced the motivation to raid, afterall we still have over 4 months until the expansion. I don't get to raid much because of my timezone, but there are still lots of things I need to try to get do ne before the expansion, because once it comes out the focus will move from the current zones to the new ones. I'm trying to get 100 AA still and get updates for the quests that need raid zones, also to see all the zones before we move on to T8. Having the best gear you can get now means that the next tier will go smoother, and for me the better the gear I have the easier I can solo, which is what I do most of the time. Once T8 comes out you also won't get every item and spell replaced right away, it's take a good 6 months more than likely to get all new spalls to M1 and upgrade all your slots.

[Ghostbear]

<p>I mean really whats the point? even the best gear will be worthless once the new level cap is put in ...and the uber gear now will probably be worthless by level 74ish.</p><p>maybe its me but i havent raided since the expansion was announced and i dont even know if i will get the expansion since theres really nothing game changing to it. Just same more zones more levels crap.</p><p>Not to be depressing, but if you really get down to it thats what MMO's and any game is really about once you clear out all the fluff...level, get gear, get money, repeat. I try not to break it down to its simplest form and instead enjoy it for what it is...an adventure game and a release from everyday life. </p>

[Winter]

<span style="font-size: medium; color: #ff66ff; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">I play the game and raid.... to have fun. Not just for awesome gear. I feel it is really sad when people get so very caught up in 'gear wars' that they lose their ability to just enjoy the game.</span>

[Willias]

<cite>Ghostbear wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to be depressing, but if you really get down to it thats what MMO's and any game is really about once you clear out all the fluff...level, get gear, get money, repeat. I try not to break it down to its simplest form and instead enjoy it for what it is...an adventure game and a release from everyday life. </blockquote>Pretty much this. Other games, you eventually get to the end and beat the game.  With an MMO, they will eventually add more content.  This comes in the form of new dungeons to group in or raid for better equipment, or level cap raises.  Typically, level cap raises are enjoyed by a wider selection of players rather than a new raid dungeon which is only enjoyed by raid guilds. Instead of just looking at the new expansion as being forced to upgrade all of your equipment and spells all over again, also remember that there will be brand new spells added,  many new quests to check out, and new areas to explore.  Part of the fun of an MMO should be the exploration and seeing the game world that has been set before you, not just looking forward to getting that awesome suit of armor at the end.  Not that there's anything wrong with that suit of armor.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you aren't having fun with actually playing the game, maybe it's time to move on to another game?

[Solaran_X]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I mean really whats the point? even the best gear will be worthless once the new level cap is put in ...and the uber gear now will probably be worthless by level 74ish.</p><p>maybe its me but i havent raided since the expansion was announced and i dont even know if i will get the expansion since theres really nothing game changing to it. Just same more zones more levels crap.</p></blockquote>And that is why I'm completely against forward-progression (a la level caps) and all for lateral-progression from expansion to expansion raiding.

[Conequis]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I mean really whats the point? even the best gear will be worthless once the new level cap is put in ...and the uber gear now will probably be worthless by level 74ish.</p><p>maybe its me but i havent raided since the expansion was announced and i dont even know if i will get the expansion since theres really nothing game changing to it. Just same more zones more levels crap.</p></blockquote> If gear is the only thing you are after, this is not the game for you.  I like to raid simply to say, we conquered uberhardmob_1 with friends.  Even with all the raid strat out there, you still have to make it happen with the guild and with the people you have. Gear is great, but if you focus all your effort into it, then an MMORPG is not going to be fun or it will be just a grind. I agree that not every expansion should automatically have a level increase.  I for one was happy when EoF came out and found out it was lateral increases.  I think there should be a level increase about every 2 expansions and then more AA things happening when there isn't a level increase.

[LordPazuzu]

No, it's increased it.  I want to be as well equipped as possible when tackling new content.  Also, it's increased my motivation for completing existing raid content before the level cap increase trivializes some of the challenge.  I want to say my guild was able to defeat it now as opposed to 5 levels from now.

[Finora]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I mean really whats the point? even the best gear will be worthless once the new level cap is put in ...and the uber gear now will probably be worthless by level 74ish.</p><p>maybe its me but i havent raided since the expansion was announced and i dont even know if i will get the expansion since theres really nothing game changing to it. Just same more zones more levels crap.</p></blockquote><p> Well, that is the nature of most MMO's. Level increases, gear gets outdated. If you are this down about the whole thing, I think it's definately time for you to find something else to do, be it another game or some other thing that interests you.</p><p>I for one am still having a blast raiding, and my guild is only just doing KOS stuff. We never really had the numbers for raiding until the last few months. In fact only just beat Lyceum for the first time the night before last. I'm sure there's going to be legendary junk that drops in Kunark that will beat the snot out of my old KOS gear but that's MMO's for you, always something new and better around the corner. If there wasn't people would complain about that. </p><p>Also, like LordPazuzu <G> I would like to be able to say we beat x mob before we had more levels to trivialize it. I'm certain we'll never make it to Emerald Halls before Kunark, but still.</p>

[DragonMaster2385]

I don't think that it would.  Think about it, the better gear you have now, the better you will be equip for raiding T8 content.  If anything, it should push for people to raid more.

[quamdar]

not only does better gear now mean you will progress easier but if you are a caster which i am you probably won't replace the gear until you are raiding in T8 since it is all about effects which a lot of lower end gear is lacking, not about the stats.  that and i just enjoy raiding.

[Naubeta]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I mean really whats the point? even the best gear will be worthless once the new level cap is put in ...and the uber gear now will probably be worthless by level 74ish.</p><p>maybe its me but i havent raided since the expansion was announced and i dont even know if i will get the expansion since theres really nothing game changing to it. Just same more zones more levels crap.</p></blockquote> Try <a href="http://www.progressquest.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.progressquest.com/</a>

[Cronqar]

<p>What really drives me mad, is the disparity of loot and gear you can get out of KoS vs EoF. Here we are trying to build a new RF and as a marketing tool to attract members we are raiding KoS (DT, Lab, Lyc. HoS very etc.). Unfortunately is the crappy loot that you can get with a mediocre group out of Unrest, MMCastle or other instances in EoF partially better than fabled gear out of the KoS raidinstances. 24players investing 3-4 hours on a KoS raid versus a quick 2 hour group run in EoF. Try to build a raidforce on that.</p><p>I just cannot understand what the motivation behind that disparity is? Somebody mind to explain this to me kindly? I might be missing a point here</p>

[Lord Montague]

<cite>Cronqar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just cannot understand what the motivation behind that disparity is? Somebody mind to explain this to me kindly? I might be missing a point here</blockquote><p> Ok, look at it this way.  KoS was the previous expansion - and to me, the gear you can get out of the heroic content in EoF is designed to be competitive with the gear from KoS raid on purpose and why?  So if you hadn't been spending much time raiding in KoS you can gear up for EoF raiding a bit quicker.  It's the "fast track" if you hadn't done much raiding before and want to catch up.</p><p>But personally, my whole view on this is if your sole motivator is loot then you will be constantly disappointed.  I've seen it happen time and again with every expansion.</p>

[Freliant]

"lateral progression" is actually a much worse idea than level cap increases. Lets be generous and say that 10% of the server population raids. That means that from expansion to expansion, less than 10% of the population would benefit from the expansion. If new story and content gets added for the non-raiders, then the equipment would have to be better than what is already available in the prior expansion, or there would be no reason to do them at all. Eventually, the gear from the new expansions would be much better than the raid gear from the first few tiers of raid progression and that "raid" content would go completely unused. With a level cap increase, however, everyone is forced to go through the new progression trees, AND the ones that did the end game raiding from the prior expansion have a definitive advantage when it comes to loot. They will undoubtadly progress much quicker, killing mobs quicker and gearing themselves up much quicker than a non-raider. They also get to experience the new raid content, which is something the non-raiding community will almost never see. Go ask a non-raider when was the last time they saw a dragon (outside of the pedastles in PoA, you will see they are missing out on alot.

[Wildmage]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>"lateral progression" is actually a much worse idea than level cap increases. Lets be generous and say that 10% of the server population raids. That means that from expansion to expansion, less than 10% of the population would benefit from the expansion. If new story and content gets added for the non-raiders, then the equipment would have to be better than what is already available in the prior expansion, or there would be no reason to do them at all. Eventually, the gear from the new expansions would be much better than the raid gear from the first few tiers of raid progression and that "raid" content would go completely unused. With a level cap increase, however, everyone is forced to go through the new progression trees, AND the ones that did the end game raiding from the prior expansion have a definitive advantage when it comes to loot. They will undoubtadly progress much quicker, killing mobs quicker and gearing themselves up much quicker than a non-raider. They also get to experience the new raid content, which is something the non-raiding community will almost never see. Go ask a non-raider when was the last time they saw a dragon (outside of the pedastles in PoA, you will see they are missing out on alot. </blockquote> Exactly why EQ1 lost a good chunk of the few non hardcore raiders players still playing around when they started cranking out expansions that were only able to be progressed through via raid.

[Cronqar]

<p>I guess the disparity might be started at the Mob Level. As we have seen already in KoS there was a discrepancy between a 64^^^ heroic running around somewhere on Isle of Guardians, where you can breeze thru basically blindfoldedm and in the Sanctum, where it just chops you down if you don't pay attention. This was somewhere in a GU justified with inreased loot-drops. With the arrival of EoF this discrepancy has been even further widened where all of the sudden a 62^^^ became a very dangerous mob to most of us.</p><p>I might be just a wee bit narrowminded on this one but to me 64=64=64 (with the exception of different abilities of the mob of course).</p><p>It needs to be seen what RoK will do and how far you can get with halfway decent EoF Solo/Group-Gear while I still "shlepp" fabled KoS Gear around with me that I cannot possibly hand over to a merchant voluntarily<img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Karlen]

>>>I might be just a wee bit narrowminded on this one but to me 64=64=64<<< Could someone on a PvP server confirm whether player-characters of a given level are interchangeable when it comes to difficulty in killing them? Level is only one characteristic of a mob.  Whether the mob casts DoTs at me or heals himself has a greater impact on difficulty for me. I'd sooner fight a non-healing 66 mob than a healing 64 one.

[KBern]

<p>At least as a mage I dont need to look for Mit, Damage ratings, etc.</p><p>As long as my stats are decent, and help me experience up to 80, and then allow me to survive the easier new raid zones, it won't be too bad.</p><p>I do feel bad for the tanks and melees who will have it a bit worse.</p><p>I am not looking forward to getting all new spells again though. <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[AnAnimatedcorpse]

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>>>>I might be just a wee bit narrowminded on this one but to me 64=64=64<<< Could someone on a PvP server confirm whether player-characters of a given level are interchangeable when it comes to difficulty in killing them? Level is only one characteristic of a mob.  Whether the mob casts DoTs at me or heals himself has a greater impact on difficulty for me. I'd sooner fight a non-healing 66 mob than a healing 64 one. </blockquote>Depending on your class, healers can be beastly, due to being able to outlast you...

[Norrsken]

Cloven@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>>>>I might be just a wee bit narrowminded on this one but to me 64=64=64<<< Could someone on a PvP server confirm whether player-characters of a given level are interchangeable when it comes to difficulty in killing them? Level is only one characteristic of a mob.  Whether the mob casts DoTs at me or heals himself has a greater impact on difficulty for me. I'd sooner fight a non-healing 66 mob than a healing 64 one. </blockquote>Depending on your class, healers can be beastly, due to being able to outlast you... </blockquote>Though, many classes can down a healer fairly easy. You need one of two things. High dps, or high durability (Prolly through self healing of some kind) My assassin can burn down healers fast enough (Well, templars have too [Removed for Content] much mit but anyway). My sk can outlast healers (Since they generally cant outdps my lifetaps) and my necro? Well, I can usually stay alive with my lifetaps while putting down some nutty dps. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> My troubie though, I never could take down a decently played healer. Not beinga ble to self heal, or burn down wasnt working ery well for me.

[Chay]

This is why I don't raid. Raiding tends to become: Playing for Gear as opposed to playing for fun. Raids can be fun but to me they rarely match Reward with Risk or Effort. Raiding becomes a J O B. Most hardcore raiding guilds tend to become less about experiencing content and overcoming the obstacles presented and become a grind for gear... To me the single group instances are more fun though now everyone seems to just go to the named rather than clearing the zones. Which is fine for time spent and since so much is just trash to annoy people. I'm not real thrilled about raising the caps, it was going to happen at some point but I was hoping they'd hold off a while longer.

[Oakum]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is why I don't raid. Raiding tends to become: Playing for Gear as opposed to playing for fun. Raids can be fun but to me they rarely match Reward with Risk or Effort. Raiding becomes a J O B. Most hardcore raiding guilds tend to become less about experiencing content and overcoming the obstacles presented and become a grind for gear... To me the single group instances are more fun though now everyone seems to just go to the named rather than clearing the zones. Which is fine for time spent and since so much is just trash to annoy people. I'm not real thrilled about raising the caps, it was going to happen at some point but I was hoping they'd hold off a while longer. </blockquote><p>I agree with the first part of this and that is why I just casually raid. The trouble with the "hardcore raid for gear" types is that they also seem to want to prove that they can get aggro on the mob faster then the other {insert class} person in the raid and end up turning the mob to the raid and wiping it. They also tend to blame the raid setup, ect to their lack of aggro control. </p><p>The fun in raiding should be from the teamwork, ect in taking down a hard mob and finishing that epic quest line. that is why I raid to be honest, to work on quests. Raiding for the hope of gear is fine but when I don't have fun due to personality or lack of control from EXPERIENCED "raid" players, I am more glad then ever that I never accepted invitations to raid guilds. Loss of time from someone new to raids is understandable, educate them and move on, loss of time and multiple wipes due to a raiding swashing drawing aggro every fight and turning the mob to the raid is no fun at all.</p><p>As far as the expansion goes, their should be one once a year that raises the lvl cap. Raiding for gear is just the way to pass time (for most people) while theyare waiting for the next cap and the ability to actually permamently improve their character again. </p><p>Levl caps also tend to deflate the "leet" raiders because it effectively sets the bar even again for all the raid guilds. If the top raid guild slacks then they will be passed up where that is not possible for a newly formed raid guild right now due to the sheer amount of content they have to do to catch up and get geared up equal. </p>

[FlamingDuck]

<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>"lateral progression" is actually a much worse idea than level cap increases. Lets be generous and say that 10% of the server population raids. That means that from expansion to expansion, less than 10% of the population would benefit from the expansion. If new story and content gets added for the non-raiders, then the equipment would have to be better than what is already available in the prior expansion, or there would be no reason to do them at all. Eventually, the gear from the new expansions would be much better than the raid gear from the first few tiers of raid progression and that "raid" content would go completely unused. With a level cap increase, however, everyone is forced to go through the new progression trees, AND the ones that did the end game raiding from the prior expansion have a definitive advantage when it comes to loot. They will undoubtadly progress much quicker, killing mobs quicker and gearing themselves up much quicker than a non-raider. They also get to experience the new raid content, which is something the non-raiding community will almost never see. Go ask a non-raider when was the last time they saw a dragon (outside of the pedastles in PoA, you will see they are missing out on alot. </blockquote> Exactly why EQ1 lost a good chunk of the few non hardcore raiders players still playing around when they started cranking out expansions that were only able to be progressed through via raid. </blockquote><p>Hehe, also the same problem WoW has with Burning Crusade expansion...level 60 raiding and raid gear became pointless because the risk and time required far outweighed the reward when the level cap was raised to 70....so all those level 60 raiding zones as well as many level 60 dungeons (like Scholomance) are now just a waste of space. You can get better gear just by stepping into the new zones and doing easy quests. </p><p>Anyway, I admit RoK has made me lose a bit motivation to raid...I am nearing max level with my main and I probably won't bother raiding...all that time and effort I'd put into obtaining level 70 raid gear would pretty quickly be replaced when RoK comes out. But then there's all that AA I'm missing out, so I'll probably experience most of the raid zones once. But raiding is not important to me seems like a hamster wheel and so many people I know treat it like a job.</p>

[Willias]

Actually, the way it's done in EQ2 is that the next tier of equipment doesn't always outdo the previous tier of equipment, especially in regards to caster equipment. So you can say "well, there's no point in raiding now" when there actually is, since there may not be any significant upgrades to raid stuff until you get far enough into the expansion. If anything, the gear you get from raids now will make it that much easier to get to the point where you can raid again for better equipment.

[Haliken]

<p>I know this will seem a little awkward due to how skewed values are between the games, but EQ1's latest expansion pushed single-group attainable equipment to the 300 hp mark, whereas raid equipment is up to 575 hp.</p><p>It's annoying to see raid armor in EQ2 replaced so quickly and easily by new expansion group armor, but it's helpful to keep from having too outrageous an imbalance between the two.</p><p>As an indication, though, the EQ1 raid armor reached the 300 hp mark 5 expansions ago.</p>

[hellfire]

<cite>Chayna wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is why I don't raid. Raiding tends to become: Playing for Gear as opposed to playing for fun. Raids can be fun but to me they rarely match Reward with Risk or Effort. Raiding becomes a J O B. Most hardcore raiding guilds tend to become less about experiencing content and overcoming the obstacles presented and become a grind for gear... To me the single group instances are more fun though now everyone seems to just go to the named rather than clearing the zones. Which is fine for time spent and since so much is just trash to annoy people. I'm not real thrilled about raising the caps, it was going to happen at some point but I was hoping they'd hold off a while longer. </blockquote>Your doing the same thing in group instances there.your grinding just for gear  " tend to become less about experiencing content and overcoming the obstacles presented" By not clearing the zones. Seems like same thing to me just one is raid........... other is group. As far as raiding goes  we sure do do it for gear.when can sleep walk threw encounters because there is no more obstacles to overcome what other reason is there.If you dont have  fun raiding then it aint for you.The fun part of raiding after kill something dozens of times is the fun in haveing fun with the people you do it with  and getting new shiney items. And there really is no grind.After awhile  you get to the point of raiding 3-4 times a week  3 hours each of those nites....not much of a grind there imo.

[Stinky123]

I am really supprised at the response here?  Come on people its building your character, yes it progresses but not as much as your making it out too!  Some of the best players still where equipment from other expansions not EOF.  I play an illusy and as such my goal is to have every single item I have, contain a dammage proc.  Some items such as avatar loot I will never see so there are cases where items from previous expansions are still good!  Sure the game progresses but you act like all fabled loot will be worthless on rok release, i doubt this is the case.  I also argue greatly about kos raid zones having crap loot there are still quite a few awsome kos items.

[suroktheslayer5]

This happens every expansion. If the people who always complained about cap increases had it their way we would still have the cap at level 50. It's always the top end raiders that blow their tops over cap increases and some actually leave the game because of it. Perhaps you shouldn't be raiding 5 days a week 8 hours a day <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Also a cap increase allows guilds that aren't superuber raiders to go back and see the raiding content they weren't able to see. My guild is an example of this, we couldn't do the Godking raiding when the cap was 60 but once KoS came out we were able to go back and get our Godking weapons. We also did it with our prismatics too. I raid to see the content in the game. The gear is just an added bonus. I've seen pretty much all the content in the game has to offer since launch (except for EoF raid zones) and I've done it by not being in a uber raiding guild. RoK will allow my guild to go see the hard EoF raid zones we weren't willing to spend the endless hours banging our heads on the raid wall. <img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b344/suroktheslayer/Suroksig.jpg" border="0">

[Tash 1]

<p>My personal opinion is that a level cap raise isn't very good for the game as general. I know my opinion isn't shared by the majority but at least I can give my top three reasons think it's a bad idea.</p><p>1) Bringing 10 new levels often don't really bring any new content to the game. Its just the same as people done at least 7 times by now. We get the same spells again slightly better but on the other hand we have to upgrade them to adept 3 or better. The treasured armour that drops in the new tier is often better than legend in the old and the legendary better than the old fable. But its just the same armour and equipment. Some new zones that will instant kill all unless they have geared and level up in the new tier or Raid equipped guilds.</p><p>2) Ten new levels will spread the players even more thin. Many people have a hard time to find groups in their level. Yes one can mentor and people do that. It is probably the only reason why there is low level groups at all. Only new toon slots and new races temporarily fix this problem. </p><p>3) Old zones will be abandon. We seen it happen to T5 T6 and now soon it will happen to T7. With a lock out from raid zones of a week most people will have out grown the raid zone between the times they allowed to raid. The reward for the raidzone isn't really worth the time and effort it takes. As an example you can compare the time and effort for KOS Class armour and EOF Class armour.   4) The economy will be even more imbalanced. Well geared players will sell their trash loot from the new zones for a fortune. The first adepts and rares for the new tire will cost a fortune. And will only be obtained by the raid guilds or farmers.</p><p> - So am I just want to be static and no changes to be made? That would surly kill the game! No not at all! EoF expansion was very clever and lot of good thinking there.</p><p>So some things I would love to se ... - Quest given spells and abilities.  Let us struggle some for our abilities. - More AAs and tweaking of our toons. Some quested Race abilities? - More special crafted gears. No trade rares for these that we have to find or quest for. - More fun group raid zones. How about a contested instance where groups start at the same time from different directions. First group to the boss wins? - Shorter lockouts for low levels raid zones like the t5 t6 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And why not put some effort in - Better looking armours or at least more different. - Some social clothes? (Not 20 alike with different colour) And hey where is my shoes? - More different mounts, maybe race or alignment based, (unicorn for me please <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) - How about fix the emotes? My emotes make me look like a drunk dwarf. I cant smile to people and my dance is just so .... Gah! - How about flying mounts? - Sailing ships and oceans? - Guild houses? - Sitting? </p><p> I feel there are plenty things a expansion could have without 10 more levels.</p><p>/Tash</p>