Why aren't dyes possible?

[Nivmizzet]

Could someone explain to me why armor dyes are not possible to implement? I'm so tired of hearing the game doesn't support this.  If you're able to make changes to zone loading, combat music, and other "engine" related items in RoK, then why not this one?  It's not like we're asking for flying mounts here like some other LAME MMOs (you know what I'm talkin bout). It's very disheartening to finally reach level 70, only to see every other toon in your class looks exactly like you!  This strips any individuality we have as a player.

[Rijacki]

Nivmizzet@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Could someone explain to me why armor dyes are not possible to implement? I'm so tired of hearing the game doesn't support this.  If you're able to make changes to zone loading, combat music, and other "engine" related items in RoK, then why not this one?  It's not like we're asking for flying mounts here like some other LAME MMOs (you know what I'm talkin bout). It's very disheartening to finally reach level 70, only to see every other toon in your class looks exactly like you!  This strips any individuality we have as a player. </blockquote> They all look the same because, for most classes, there is the perception that there is only one possible armor that is THE best and so all of that class seek to get it. It's not that dyes are impossible to implement, it's that the devs chose not to add them to the game so they can have control over how armor from particular places looks. In EQ1, there was armor with a particular colour from particular places.  Some of it you had to work very hard to get all of a matching set.  Examples: the blue leather from the kobolds in Stonebrunt (wicker?), the purple cleric plate from HATE, the white robe that required killing a Vah Shir child, etc.  After dyes were implemented with Ykesha: any full leather suit (even of mixed items) could be dyed to blue negating the difficulty of attaining a full set, any plate could be dyed to purple even for a character that had never been to Hate, any robe could have its colour stripped to become the white robe without having the item's lore proclaim you as a child killer, etc.  Aside from the day-glo ogres (and in -much- brighter, clashing colours than any EQ2 armor, really), dyes removed all the uniqueness from items which were difficult or time-consuming, or special to obtain. 

[Nivmizzet]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nivmizzet@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Could someone explain to me why armor dyes are not possible to implement? I'm so tired of hearing the game doesn't support this.  If you're able to make changes to zone loading, combat music, and other "engine" related items in RoK, then why not this one?  It's not like we're asking for flying mounts here like some other LAME MMOs (you know what I'm talkin bout). It's very disheartening to finally reach level 70, only to see every other toon in your class looks exactly like you!  This strips any individuality we have as a player. </blockquote> They all look the same because, for most classes, there is the perception that there is only one possible armor that is THE best and so all of that class seek to get it. It's not that dyes are impossible to implement, it's that the devs chose not to add them to the game so they can have control over how armor from particular places looks. In EQ1, there was armor with a particular colour from particular places.  Some of it you had to work very hard to get all of a matching set.  Examples: the blue leather from the kobolds in Stonebrunt (wicker?), the purple cleric plate from HATE, the white robe that required killing a Vah Shir child, etc.  After dyes were implemented with Ykesha: any full leather suit (even of mixed items) could be dyed to blue negating the difficulty of attaining a full set, any plate could be dyed to purple even for a character that had never been to Hate, any robe could have its colour stripped to become the white robe without having the item's lore proclaim you as a child killer, etc.  Aside from the day-glo ogres (and in -much- brighter, clashing colours than any EQ2 armor, really), dyes removed all the uniqueness from items which were difficult or time-consuming, or special to obtain.  </blockquote>Well that would make sense.  Thanks for giving me the other perspective. I guess my main complaint is just I don't want to look like everyone else, but then again I don't want to have to sacrifice my stat bonuses to wear something more fashionable. Has there been thought on how to increase a toon's individuality in this respect?  If this is a dead issue, then surely there must had been consolations made/being developed in its defeat.

[Rast]

<p>If they aren't going to add dyes (which they aren't, they've said so...)</p><p>they need to add alot more sets to the game so that we don't have to look like clowns to get a decent stats.  It is disgusting on an RP server to look closer to a clown than a paladin. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Thormiel]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>If they aren't going to add dyes (which they aren't, they've said so...)</p><p>they need to add alot more sets to the game so that we don't have to look like clowns to get a decent stats.  It is disgusting on an RP server to look closer to a clown than a paladin. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>It's not a person's wardrobe that defines him, but what he does. Are you a paladin because of your actions or because you have a fancy looking set of armor?

[Wildmage]

whats funny is even if they add dyes people just aren't that creative, with in hours of dyes coming in the majorityof the player base that does use dyes will be either black/red/green/blue with a couple purple oddballs.

[Borias]

I too crave for dyes.  Blue hat, blue shoulders, red wrist, purple gloves, grey chest, green pants, black boots.  I wish I could at least blend the colors a bit.  Or something.  Someone make my bard loot drop so I stop looking really bad. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Faerless]

<p>For my part I do also desire the ability to change the colors of my visible gear.  I feel that it adds a layer of personality to the game by providing players to individualize their look, especially for Role Players.</p><p>One of the things that I genuinely enjoyed about EQLive was the way I could manipulate my visiage to reflect what my character had been doing.  For instance, as a ShadowKnight I often went on long, bloody hunting sprees.  For those times I would wear all black armor with red hands thus reflecting the blood of my recently slaughtered ememies.  It was an individuality factor that really enhanced the gameplay experience for me.</p><p>Whether they ever impliment personalization of visible attributes beyond what is currently available or not, I will always miss this particular facet of the old game.</p><p>Just my 2 cents,</p><p>Faerless</p>

[ke'la]

<p>The main reason that they can't add EQlive style armor dyes is because the would have to recolor every single, pixal on every single iteam that can be dyed for every color of the armor, assuming there are 100 pieces of armor, and 4 colors you want dye, that would mean you would have to remap 400 iteams AND then DOWNLOAD them to your computer think about the huge size of a download that would be.</p><p>::EDIT::</p><p>If you don't beleave me ask the SR. Producer of EQ2</p><p><Gallenite> Longest answer yet:  When a game developer makes armor for a game, they need to build support for tintability in from the get go.  Thematic reasons aside, it's also not something that's feasible for EQ2 without us redoing a prohibitively large amount of armor.  <Gallenite> Since it's not logistically possible, it's not a road we've decided to pursue.  Hope that explains a bit more.</p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote> It's not that dyes are impossible to implement, it's that the devs chose not to add them to the game so they can have control over how armor from particular places looks. In EQ1, there was armor with a particular colour from particular places.  Some of it you had to work very hard to get all of a matching set.  Examples: the blue leather from the kobolds in Stonebrunt (wicker?), the purple cleric plate from HATE, the white robe that required killing a Vah Shir child, etc.  After dyes were implemented with Ykesha: any full leather suit (even of mixed items) could be dyed to blue negating the difficulty of attaining a full set, any plate could be dyed to purple even for a character that had never been to Hate, any robe could have its colour stripped to become the white robe without having the item's lore proclaim you as a child killer, etc.  Aside from the day-glo ogres (and in -much- brighter, clashing colours than any EQ2 armor, really), dyes removed all the uniqueness from items which were difficult or time-consuming, or special to obtain.  </blockquote>Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I could care much less about this. I understand the arguement, not saying it's bad or wrong... but personally I don't like the idea. Weapons and shields having that kind of uniquness about them don't bother me, as they don't need to match anything... but mismatched armor is just annoying.  Shouldn't be necessary to own a full set of <i>anything</i> to avoid that. Most people use a mix of many things, it's all a stat game... and the end result is that clowny look. Makes the whole game look much less appealing than it could have been. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Armor dyes is obviously out of the question, but some way to toggle so that all pieces appear as if they match the chestpiece would really have helped a lot too. Anyone who cares about what you're wearing, can just do an /inspect. Jewelry don't show either, so I fail to see why it should be different with armor. I'd also like to mention that some classes already have chestpieces that covers everything else, a brawler gi for example. Why can't other classes get this too?

[JohnBarleycorn]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Armor dyes is obviously out of the question, but some way to toggle so that all pieces appear as if they match the chestpiece would really have helped a lot too. Anyone who cares about what you're wearing, can just do an /inspect. Jewelry don't show either, so I fail to see why it should be different with armor. I'd also like to mention that some classes already have chestpieces that covers everything else, a brawler gi for example. Why can't other classes get this too? </blockquote> I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, but I kinda like the idea of matching your looks to an armor piece of your choice. (Limiting it to the chest would bring us back to everyone looking the same)

[Rijacki]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote> Shouldn't be necessary to own a full set of <i>anything</i> to avoid that. Most people use a mix of many things, it's all a stat game... and the end result is that clowny look. Makes the whole game look much less appealing than it could have been. </blockquote>If you want to wear a mis-matched set (or only have a few pieces of one and others of another), in my opinion, you SHOULD look like you're mismatched.  You're not wearing a complete outfit so why should you look like you are?

[Amphibia]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote> Shouldn't be necessary to own a full set of <i>anything</i> to avoid that. Most people use a mix of many things, it's all a stat game... and the end result is that clowny look. Makes the whole game look much less appealing than it could have been. </blockquote>If you want to wear a mis-matched set (or only have a few pieces of one and others of another), in my opinion, you SHOULD look like you're mismatched.  You're not wearing a complete outfit so why should you look like you are? </blockquote>Well then I must respectfully disagree. This means that some people basically have to look mismatched 99% of the time. Espesially tank types and raiders, they kind have to wear that which gives the best stats. The EoF set, you say? Well, I'm sure Ne Plus Ultra and the other top raiding guilds worldwide might have it on several of their members, but I'm not sure anyone has it yet on my server - what, 8 months after the release of EoF. The legs drop only from Wouishi in EH, which is an 8 hour zone or something. I just think it makes the game look a lot worse than it could have. I mean, EQ2 has the potential to look awesome... but why does everyone run around with pink/green shoulders, red chestpiece, turquoise pants, yellow boots and similar? Bleh.... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Armawk]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote> why does everyone run around with pink/green shoulders, red chestpiece, turquoise pants, yellow boots and similar? </blockquote> They dont though do they?

[Amphibia]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote> why does everyone run around with pink/green shoulders, red chestpiece, turquoise pants, yellow boots and similar? </blockquote> They dont though do they?</blockquote> <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/mismatched.jpg" border="0"> My point was only that looking mismatched is very common in this game, not that everyone is running around with that exact combination I used in my example. It was an example only, as is the screenshot above. I guess I should be more careful with my choice of words....

[Chay]

They are possible but not desired by SOE. I'd rather not see dyes per se but some choices given for displaying different colors or textures on pieces.

[Armawk]

How long did finding that fugly blue top take? I dont think I ever saw such a thing!

[Chay]

Oops! Didn't take that into consideration! Removed my comment as I may have misunderstood. Hey it was early when I was reading that... forgive me! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[petrov26]

<p>I think he was referring to that blue chest piece on the warrior type in the previous screenshot. It possibly wouldn't look too bad if there was a full set for it (pretty sure I have only ever seen a chest piece in that color), too bright of a blue for me though (and people say dyes would be bad.)</p><p> Concerning the status dress, I would agree that it looks pretty good, never could figure out why SOE hasn't retextured that model for other non-status clothes for mages and the like. They keep saying how the skeleton system is such a hindrance, yet they have never really taken advantage of so many things already in game that they could just do better or alternative textures for. </p>

[Rijacki]

I find it interesting, those (like the one who posted the screen shot of the warrior) don't ever post screen shots with their graphics on good or even great settings.  Perhaps they don't have a graphics card that's decent?  Perhaps they don't realise you can up your graphics for a screen shot even if you can't play at that all the time (or perhaps they figured out you can drop the graphics settings for screen shots to make them as fugly as possible). Min/maxing (which that same poster seems to think is -required-) will produce odd mis-matches.  But... in life... when you're doing your job (like a character on a raid requiring particular stats or resists) you might have to wear a uniform that isn't exactly the most attractive.  I'm sure every person flipping burgers at an In-and-Out has -that- uniform as his chosen "look".  Or how about the policeman in the blue suit and flat hat? or even the office worker who has to wear a suit and tie?  most of them look 100% different when they're on the job and it might not be their choice of clothing but is to get the job done. Every player has the choice to change the look of his/her character when the character steps away from "work".  In addition to armor which doesn't fit the min/max "requirements", there is also faction clothing and even tailored casual clothing.  Each of those options allows for a complete "look" of the player's choice for that character and can easily be used when the character isn't required to wear something specific for "work".  If you're just hanging around being a fashion plate, you can easily change your "look" to what you choose without adding dyes.

[petrov26]

<p>That neon blue breastplate looks just about as bad in high quality as it does in low - it still doesn't fit with anything else.</p><p>While I agree that there is some choice between having pieces that match or having a clown-suit due to choosing stats over looks, the problem is that so many pieces are one-offs. Take that blue chest piece; I do not believe there are any similar pieces to match it for legs, arms, etc. nor does anything much look good with it. </p><p>I also do not believe that it must be an all or nothing thing (looks vs. stats) - I do think they could improve the variety and look of armor significantly and still give the pieces reasonable stats. As another mentioned, I am not sure that dyes are the way to go either, but I sure wish there was more we could do to individualize our character's armor and look. </p><p>For example, I have recently spent a bunch of time looking in the broker with the new dressing room deal to find something to fit my lvl 55 swashie - it is sad that the best looking thing for her seems to be the armor quest items I got in my 20s - it is still the only "swashbuckler-ish" looking thing I can find. While yes, I can still wear that around town, why the heck cant they make more armor like this for higher levels? They can even use the same model, just maybe some better textures and stats and viola! A happy customer....</p><p> I find it stunning that there are folks that are apparently happy with things the way they are with armor, robes, etc. but to each their own I guess.</p>

[Giral]

<p>yes there is most likely a full set of the Blue armor, they show the Dwarf in a full set in the EOF video here is a link : <a href="http://www.allakhazam.com/e3/news/sdetail7350.html?story=7350" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.allakhazam.com/e3/news/s...html?story=7350</a>  </p><p>and i do believe i have the boots and the chest(if i didnt sacrifice them i will take a screeny of them (they look like blue high top sneakers) funny thing is im pretty sure they both dropped in Lab's raid's </p><p>in reply to the armor dye's  here is a recent Developer's chat log from Allakhazam's web page  : </p><p><b>[calthine]</b> About a kajillion people ask: Are there any plans to add Armor Dyes? <b>[lyndro]</b> Short answer: no. <b>[lyndro]</b> Longer answer: probably not. <b>[lyndro]</b> Longest answer: We like for the color of your armor to be recognizable. When you see that Shadowknight run by with the hot pink pants, you know which pants she is wearing. On a side note, our lead character artist, Lotus, has been putting a lot of time and effort into removing the "clown" armor sets from the game. So you shouldn't actually see any more hot pink pants. <b>[gallenite] </b>Longest answer yet: When a game developer makes armor for a game, they need to build support for tintability in from the get go. Thematic reasons aside, it's also not something that's feasible for EQ2 without us redoing a prohibitively large amount of armor. <b>[gallenite]</b> Since it's not logistically possible, it's not a road we've decided to pursue. Hope that explains a bit more.</p><p>here is a link to the full Chat log : <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/sdetail.html?story=9776" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/sdetail.html?story=9776</a></p>

[Nivmizzet]

Thanks for posting Scott's reply.  If the issue is being shot down, it's nice to see/hear it come from the horse's mouth.

[Giral]

<p>o well guess i was wrong(once again) There possibly isn't a full set of the blue armor and they dropped  in HOS not Labs </p><p><a href="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/eq2_loot.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/eq2_loot.php</a></p><p>so i know there are chest and boots lol , "i dont have the boot's anymore tho : ( so i couldnt take a screenie "</p>

[Jushara]

Ok, I can understand the reasoning behind not letting us change those unique armors, but how about tradeskill armor?    (what i am about to say would be cool for all tradeskills) It would be awesome to have 1 or 2 sets per tier, or more. that you could adjust  at the time of creation, like cloaks can be changed for guilds. I don't see why a crafter can't modify the armor, weapons, etc. he/she creates. instead of 10 types of armmor, have one or two modifiable sets. the same could be said about any profession. for example, why not be able to change the shade of wood, or the pattern of sheets on a bed? a HSV or RGB slider would be MUCH appreciated on cloth stuff like Robes and Gis.

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

<cite>Thormiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>If they aren't going to add dyes (which they aren't, they've said so...)</p><p>they need to add alot more sets to the game so that we don't have to look like clowns to get a decent stats.  It is disgusting on an RP server to look closer to a clown than a paladin. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>It's not a person's wardrobe that defines him, but what he does. Are you a paladin because of your actions or because you have a fancy looking set of armor? </blockquote><p> okay ... i didnt make it past this statment.  I mean really, come on!!!  How can you even use that as an arguement.  The majority of the community for EQ and EQII have some love for roleplaying (hence why they play a roleplaying game).  No, it is not a wardrobe that defines who a character is by profession, but can you honestly sit there and say that a HERO (which is what our higher level characters are suppose to be in some fashion) or experienced adventurers at the very least would walk around town all mismatched?  Would you go out to work wearing a flaming red shirt with a green jacket, brown and blue designed pants, silver gloves, orange shoes, and a pink hat?  I mean come on.  It isnt about how well your character functions.  When people complain about their choices in armor it is because they want their characters to look good.  After all, the majority of this community is at their computers at least an hour every day if not a lot more than that and who wants to walk around staring at an eyesore?</p><p>So before you try using that arguement again, please take a moment to think about the community and what these people are actually asking for.</p><p>Now, as for the dyes in question.  I agree that armor looted should be just that - no color changes.  If you loot armor you want to wear and it mismatches, tough, that is your choice.  However, Anything crafted should be customizable.  I would not go to the store and buy mismatched items.  Just because armor pieces have the same name does not mean that I couldnt go to the next rack and pick up a pair of gloves that give a little bit more of what Im wanting and low and behold be forced to pick up a pair that clashes with the rest of the armor I already picked out.  I could see dyes being implemented for crafted armor, and I think that this would be a wonderful common ground for them to consider.  </p>

[Titigabe]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nivmizzet@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Could someone explain to me why armor dyes are not possible to implement? I'm so tired of hearing the game doesn't support this.  If you're able to make changes to zone loading, combat music, and other "engine" related items in RoK, then why not this one?  It's not like we're asking for flying mounts here like some other LAME MMOs (you know what I'm talkin bout). It's very disheartening to finally reach level 70, only to see every other toon in your class looks exactly like you!  This strips any individuality we have as a player. </blockquote> They all look the same because, for most classes, there is the perception that there is only one possible armor that is THE best and so all of that class seek to get it. It's not that dyes are impossible to implement, it's that the devs chose not to add them to the game so they can have control over how armor from particular places looks. In EQ1, there was armor with a particular colour from particular places.  Some of it you had to work very hard to get all of a matching set.  Examples: the blue leather from the kobolds in Stonebrunt (wicker?), the purple cleric plate from HATE, the white robe that required killing a Vah Shir child, etc.  After dyes were implemented with Ykesha: any full leather suit (even of mixed items) could be dyed to blue negating the difficulty of attaining a full set, any plate could be dyed to purple even for a character that had never been to Hate, any robe could have its colour stripped to become the white robe without having the item's lore proclaim you as a child killer, etc.  Aside from the day-glo ogres (and in -much- brighter, clashing colours than any EQ2 armor, really), dyes removed all the uniqueness from items which were difficult or time-consuming, or special to obtain.  </blockquote>Well, for sure, your explaination does make sense but... The fact is: the rarity of an armor set should not be visible thanks to his colour, but thanks to his design !!! Giving the priority to the colour is just encouraging them just to re-colour and old skin to give it a new look and feel, wich is just what's starting to get borring.

[Giral]

<p>with the Macro's to change full sets of gear in a clicky its easy to swap to a decent looking set of gear wyle you strut around in the local bar.</p><p>From an RP point of view maybe they could impliment certain looks for races and classes that could be put in a Charm slot that would give the illusion of a full matching set of gear but players would still be able to see your normal gear and stats if they examine you . There could be Player made/Quested/Dropped/Raid Dropped ones ,  but this should only function in Non-combat area's IMO , dressing up to hit the town is all fine and dandy, but when you ride out to battle you should be wearing your best gear regardless of how it looks, gaining numerous peices of gear from across all diffrent sections of norath should mean they wouldn't look at all the same or match or even be color co-ordinated  IMO , I mean is a Piece of gear made by the Halaysians realy suppose to match with a piece of gear made by the Droags or the Sarnak ?  i dont think so ; )   i'll take the clown look over all armor being interchangable and color co-ordinated from Dropped gear</p><p>i do like the Tradskill Gear idea of being able to chose diffrent tint's to the armor, it does add a bit more of a reason to buy the gear even if its just to have a full set to look pretty in Kneeling down in a chair /wink</p>

[Chay]

BUT... who's to say we didn't go customize the look of the armor so it looks more matched? If we are "uber" enough to get the armor surely we would be "uber" enought to find someone to make it fit us. We do customizations with some class hats why not have a armor customization shop that will unlock different looks for armor as a set or in pieces? I don't want to have them create YET another COIN SINK but if the designs were compelling and added immersion value to the class, race, gender, tier, or whatever then I'd be cool with it. Maybe tie it to faction titles (though I guess maybe not since too much is tied to being in a high level guild already). That and I want to see functional clothes /armor that look good not just 2 sets of social clothes.

[willnotuse]

I tend to avoid this conversation but I think it's time someone pointed it out. What Gallenite said is true only from the perspective that they don't want to do the other option for dye implementation instead:  using shaders. Using either SM2.0 or SM3.0 they could easily write some code that would allow a player to change the color of their gear without the need for creating five million colored texture variations that they are proposing.  You would have only what you have now.  The shaders would change the look of the armor as (simplified explanation) an overlay.  More modern games use shaders now to do textures, colors, light, shadows, and more.  All using less bandwidth and memory.  But there is a good reason they won't (and why you don't see more complex shader usage in game beyond the simple PS1.1 stuff).  The average player probably still doesn't have a good enough video card to really handle it well.  Right now they can get away with the lower game requirements.  If they decide to use shaders more extensively then it would force more of the userbase to upgrade their computers.  For those of you who remember the graphical and texture revamp that occurred with EQ1 you know that it caused a major uproar at first from those still using older video cards like the Voodoo2.  However, it made the game look better in the end and ran better on newer hardware.

[quasigenx]

<cite>willnotuse wrote:</cite><blockquote>The average player probably still doesn't have a good enough video card to really handle it well.  Right now they can get away with the lower game requirements.  </blockquote> Relatively high system requirements is the #1 reason that this game has fewer players than originally anticipated. I doubt very much that we're going to see any increase in system requirements, ever.

[Armawk]

<cite>willnotuse wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tend to avoid this conversation but I think it's time someone pointed it out. What Gallenite said is true only from the perspective that they don't want to do the other option for dye implementation instead:  using shaders. Using either SM2.0 or SM3.0 they could easily write some code that would allow a player to change the color of their gear without the need for creating five million colored texture variations that they are proposing.  You would have only what you have now.  The shaders would change the look of the armor as (simplified explanation) an overlay.  More modern games use shaders now to do textures, colors, light, shadows, and more.  All using less bandwidth and memory.  </blockquote><p> This option is in fact not viable anyway, as you have misunderstood the solution in the minds of Sony and anyone else (noone ever ever suggested making variations for each possible colour). What a shader solution (whether software or hardware), which is precisely what they would be doing if they implemented dyes, would involve is making a new texture map/mask for each existing texture in the game. This texture map would be needed to define the areas to be dyed on each item, as items can not be simply coloured all over. Then a shader layer would apply the overlay to those areas while leaving the other areas their non-changing colour.</p><p>This is the huge task referred to. Not making endless colour variations, which would be ridiculous!</p>

[willnotuse]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>willnotuse wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tend to avoid this conversation but I think it's time someone pointed it out. What Gallenite said is true only from the perspective that they don't want to do the other option for dye implementation instead:  using shaders. Using either SM2.0 or SM3.0 they could easily write some code that would allow a player to change the color of their gear without the need for creating five million colored texture variations that they are proposing.  You would have only what you have now.  The shaders would change the look of the armor as (simplified explanation) an overlay.  More modern games use shaders now to do textures, colors, light, shadows, and more.  All using less bandwidth and memory.  </blockquote><p> This option is in fact not viable anyway, as you have misunderstood the solution in the minds of Sony and anyone else (noone ever ever suggested making variations for each possible colour). What a shader solution (whether software or hardware), which is precisely what they would be doing if they implemented dyes, would involve is making a new texture map/mask for each existing texture in the game. This texture map would be needed to define the areas to be dyed on each item, as items can not be simply coloured all over. Then a shader layer would apply the overlay to those areas while leaving the other areas their non-changing colour.</p><p>This is the huge task referred to. Not making endless colour variations, which would be ridiculous!</p></blockquote> Sorry, no.  That's not how it works.  You are talking about two different solutions as if they were one.  Shaders are<b> NOT</b> tints.  You do<b> NOT</b> need to have the various texture maps with the various<i> tints</i>.  The water in the game is PS1.1 and there are NO texture maps involved with that.  The color is done NOT with texture maps but instead are done more like an overlay.  Please see <a href="http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_pixelshader.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">nVidia's explanation</a>.  This would have to be done by the video card.  Not biased toward the CPU as most of the game shaders are now.

[Armawk]

<cite>willnotuse wrote:</cite><blockquote> Sorry, no.  That's not how it works.  You are talking about two different solutions as if they were one.  Shaders are<b> NOT</b> tints.  You do<b> NOT</b> need to have the various texture maps with the various<i> tints</i>.  The water in the game is PS1.1 and there are NO texture maps involved with that.  The color is done NOT with texture maps but instead are done more like an overlay.  Please see <a href="http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_pixelshader.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">nVidia's explanation</a>.  This would have to be done by the video card.  Not biased toward the CPU as most of the game shaders are now. </blockquote><p> I know what a shader is (Im actually working with one right this hour to get a metallic effect I want on a model). And a shader without some kind of mask bitmap would be useless for armour colouring, as it would apply to the whole item which would be completely unnacceptable (as noted by the sony guys).</p><p>The ONLY thing that differentiates the leather straps on an armour model from the plate metal, for instance, is that the straps are drawn on the textures. They are not different model pieces. Therefore in order to have your blue armour shader not shade the straps, buckles etc also, you need a masking bitmap. This is unavoidable.</p>

[willnotuse]

EQ1 had dyes apply to whole item if I remember right.  And you did raise a valid point.  So then the issue becomes would it be easier to re-do the system so that instead of a single drawn bitmap for the armor piece we instead setup a flat bitmap and "draw" the design and color using shaders instead? It's much like the skeletal system revamp coming.  Huge amount of work where they literally have to start over from scratch.  We have heard rumors of a texture revamp coming and a confirmed revamp of the shadow system.  It's entirely possibly they could revamp the armor system.  Only issue is that it would take more time and manpower than either the shadow or skeletal revamp.

[Armawk]

<cite>willnotuse wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ1 had dyes apply to whole item if I remember right.  And you did raise a valid point.  So then the issue becomes would it be easier to re-do the system so that instead of a single drawn bitmap for the armor piece we instead setup a flat bitmap and "draw" the design and color using shaders instead? It's much like the skeletal system revamp coming.  Huge amount of work where they literally have to start over from scratch.  We have heard rumors of a texture revamp coming and a confirmed revamp of the shadow system.  It's entirely possibly they could revamp the armor system.  Only issue is that it would take more time and manpower than either the shadow or skeletal revamp. </blockquote><p> yeah exactly.. and result in a wholly different visual style to the game which I doubt they are looking for. </p><p>Such things as complete new texture systems are for new games not existing ones. The skeletal revamp is itself a highly unusual move in a live game.</p>

[Chay]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> yeah exactly.. and result in a wholly different visual style to the game which I doubt they are looking for. </p><b>Such things as complete new texture systems are for new games not existing ones</b>. The skeletal revamp is itself a highly unusual move in a live game.</blockquote> This is a false statement. Anyone who has played EQ knows this is a false statement. Would you like to compare EQ pre and post velious and tell us again... "complete new texture systems are for new games not existing ones"? Facts about online games... *Given the longevity of the game because it is open ended, has player turnover (new ones come in, old ones leave), and has some ability to shadow updates in technology... it will continuously change. Big changes, small changes are going to happen. *Changes can be to content (game play, play areas, and art). *Changes can be to technology (where not restricted by law)... This can be anything related to the actual program that is the game. *Changes can be to client/provider interaction... The rules of conduct, the fees charges, and so forth. Change is gonna happen just about every time you log on. Some are noticeable and some are not. Big changes happen every major expansion. Sometimes with LUs/GUs. So don't assume for a moment any change is too big to happen. They do. Sometimes they are strictly for the benefit of SOE, sometimes they are for our benefit. Expect evolution. That said I prefer dyes not be added but alternate visual choices be made available. Dyes would be the easy way out for SOE.

[Armawk]

Chayna wrote: <blockquote><p>This is a false statement. </p><p>Change is gonna happen just about every time you log on. Some are noticeable and some are not. Big changes happen every major expansion. Sometimes with LUs/GUs. So don't assume for a moment any change is too big to happen. They do. Sometimes they are strictly for the benefit of SOE, sometimes they are for our benefit. Expect evolution. That said I prefer dyes not be added but alternate visual choices be made available. Dyes would be the easy way out for SOE. </p></blockquote><p>I know all that, I promise. I know roughly how much work a rebalance, some new features or even DLW or Unrest would have taken (which is why I get mad at people who think they get nothing for their subscription), and how much a dying system would take. (I could probably provide you with a rough man-day estimate of the art/coding budget needed to do it if I was getting paid). BUT a change that would require every piece of art in the game to be almost remade from scratch? in a game the scale of EQ2? Just to please a fraction of the player base? I dont see it, but I did say the skeletal thing is unusual, thereby acknowledging unusual things happen.</p><p>I think I broadly got the idea what you want. I also have not said you dont understand how much work you are asking for, Im sure you do. This thread is about dyes though not about the other stuff. </p>

[KunamitsuUK]

<p>I'm not a fan of the dye idea, what I would like to see (Which I have posted elsewhere) is Livery and specially crafted armour sets by Guild Crafters and freelance Crafters.</p><p>You can change Guild Cloaks so it would not be difficult to implement a same style interface for a special recipe Mastercrafted item that a crafter could lock as his/her own design.</p><p>Or, an extra slot, not unlike for the cloak where overall appearance can be set. No matter what armour you have on, the overall appearance slot will define your whole outfit. No stats or buffs just for the players who want to be individual. Tailors would never have it so good, rolling out clothing sets for this slot, Guild tailors can purchase Guild livery sets at different levels and really cool ones can drop as additional loot from nameds etc for ordinary players <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Amphibia]

UPDATE: News from Fanfaire: * They will be adding a new functionality to how clothing works. They are going to add a new layer of clothing that will fit over top of your armor so that you can control how you look regardless of how unmatched your armor is. This can be turned on and off. Finally! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <a href="http://vnboards.ign.com/eq2_general_board/b22210/103994815/p1/?15" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> Click me to view the thread</a>

[Jushara]

Having just returned from the 14-day star wars galaxies trial. i have to say, that the crafting system is absolutely incredible! items change based on where and what kind of resources are used, different types of crystal are good for different things, but all will work in a pinch. modifiable armor colors and design.example, [meat jerky, leathery hide and reptile meat is diffrent from bristle hide and carnivore meat] it pretty cool, one recipie and you can adjust to you hearts content, even rename it. and stuff. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> however, otherwise, the game is kinda boring. lol I have to say, I still prefer warcraft's gathering system though.

[ZexisStryfe]

<p>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why dyes will never come to EQ2. Its simple if you really pay attention to you surroundings. How many different vanguard models are there? or chain models? how about robes? In total there are no more than say 100 different armor models in this game. </p><p>For instance, I can say with relative certainty there are only 19 robes currently in this game. The way SoE makes it look like there are more is by tinting the existing armor. From the looks of it I would wager each piece of armor has 2 "tintable" areas (the T7 chain armors show this well). Because of the fact there are so few different models, allowing the players to tint would take away any "ooh, ahh" factor of the highly sought after armors, since they look just like lower level armors at that point. It would also bring the fact that there are so few armor models even further into the forefront.</p>

[Armawk]

<cite>Vulkoor@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why dyes will never come to EQ2. Its simple if you really pay attention to you surroundings. How many different vanguard models are there? or chain models? how about robes? In total there are no more than say 100 different armor models in this game. </p><p>For instance, I can say with relative certainty there are only 19 robes currently in this game. The way SoE makes it look like there are more is by tinting the existing armor. From the looks of it I would wager each piece of armor has 2 "tintable" areas (the T7 chain armors show this well). Because of the fact there are so few different models, allowing the players to tint would take away any "ooh, ahh" factor of the highly sought after armors, since they look just like lower level armors at that point. It would also bring the fact that there are so few armor models even further into the forefront.</p></blockquote>You are mistaking a new texture (i.e. new details and often a new bump map) with a "tint". actually making a new texture with a bump map is almost as much work as making a new armour item (but due to the engine not remotely as much work to get into the game)

[ZexisStryfe]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are mistaking a new texture (i.e. new details and often a new bump map) with a "tint". actually making a new texture with a bump map is almost as much work as making a new armour item (but due to the engine not remotely as much work to get into the game)</blockquote><p>No I very much am not. Each armor model has a set bump map and texture. Within each texture there are two tintable (as in can be colored differently) areas. For instance, since robes are the most distinct, lets take a look at some of them:</p><p><img src="http://eq2.wikia.com/images/thumb/9/95/Ashenroot_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg/228px-Ashenroot_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="228" height="459" />  <cite><img src="http://eq2.wikia.com/images/thumb/c/cb/Liandrin%27s_Oracle_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg/228px-Liandrin%27s_Oracle_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="228" height="459" /></cite></p><p>             Ashenroot Robe                                 Liandrin's Oracle Robe</p><p>These two robe are identical as far as texture, bump mapping and model. The only difference is two of the areas are able to be colored independantly. The areas in question are the green/yellow flames and the grey/light blue background. This is probably done by sending two standard RGB arrays with each packet that describes the robe. Simple, easy, and absolutely no need to re-texture the models. The consequence to this is that if you allow the dying of these robes, then the artificial way you created variation amongst your models crumbles like a house of cards.</p><p>If you actually ment each of these robes are actually two distinct skins of the same model with the same bump map, then I suppose they could do it that way, but it would make the models much larger than necessary (as it would have to load all the textures associated with the model each time one of them came on screen) since just having 2 RGB arrays adds only 6 bytes of info to the model file.</p><p>PS- You can also see this same "tinting" evident on creatures as well. Look at flying snakes and manticores for wonderful examples</p>

[Kimage]

<cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote> why does everyone run around with pink/green shoulders, red chestpiece, turquoise pants, yellow boots and similar? </blockquote>They dont though do they?</blockquote><img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/mismatched.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="436" height="522" />My point was only that looking mismatched is very common in this game, not that everyone is running around with that exact combination I used in my example. It was an example only, as is the screenshot above. I guess I should be more careful with my choice of words.... </blockquote><p>  Perfect example of why we shouldnt run around with soga!!!</p><p>That barbarian has an iddy bitty head in comparison to his body.. [I cannot control my vocabulary]!</p><p> And yyes many run around looking like that in raids - and grouping!</p>

[Jardon]

<p>Vulkoor,</p><p>You do realize when you say there are only 19 robes in the game, you need to mutiple that by 2*number of races in the game, because there is a different model for each race, male and female.</p>

[Armawk]

<cite>Vulkoor@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are mistaking a new texture (i.e. new details and often a new bump map) with a "tint". actually making a new texture with a bump map is almost as much work as making a new armour item (but due to the engine not remotely as much work to get into the game)</blockquote><p>No I very much am not. Each armor model has a set bump map and texture. Within each texture there are two tintable (as in can be colored differently) areas. For instance, since robes are the most distinct, lets take a look at some of them:</p><p><img src="http://eq2.wikia.com/images/thumb/9/95/Ashenroot_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg/228px-Ashenroot_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="228" height="459" />  <cite><img src="http://eq2.wikia.com/images/thumb/c/cb/Liandrin%27s_Oracle_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg/228px-Liandrin%27s_Oracle_Robe_%28Visible%29.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="228" height="459" /></cite></p><p>             Ashenroot Robe                                 Liandrin's Oracle Robe</p><p>These two robe are identical as far as texture, bump mapping and model. The only difference is two of the areas are able to be colored independantly. The areas in question are the green/yellow flames and the grey/light blue background. This is probably done by sending two standard RGB arrays with each packet that describes the robe. Simple, easy, and absolutely no need to re-texture the models. The consequence to this is that if you allow the dying of these robes, then the artificial way you created variation amongst your models crumbles like a house of cards.</p><p>If you actually ment each of these robes are actually two distinct skins of the same model with the same bump map, then I suppose they could do it that way, but it would make the models much larger than necessary (as it would have to load all the textures associated with the model each time one of them came on screen) since just having 2 RGB arrays adds only 6 bytes of info to the model file.</p><p>PS- You can also see this same "tinting" evident on creatures as well. Look at flying snakes and manticores for wonderful examples</p></blockquote><p>This particular case (and many others) are a new colour texture only.. however for each armour model there are many bump map sets as well (robes are the most obvious example in fact, almost all robes in the game share this model, but there are dozens of bump maps) You are unfortunately completely wrong about how this colour texture is applied in the game, as it actually consists of a new dds texture file for the colour channel. your idea for a colour system has nothing to do with this game, and in fact would not produce the kind of results you see or expect to see, as you cannot simply retint a colour and expect it to look right (the visible colour map is a result of red green and blue values for each pixel) direct transforms like this are notoriously bad in practice and limiting in the extreme in terms of the result. You basically cant achieve something that gives both a black, a rich blue, and a white as alternatives.</p><p>Shaun</p>

[ZexisStryfe]

<cite>Jardon@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Vulkoor,</p><p>You do realize when you say there are only 19 robes in the game, you need to mutiple that by 2*number of races in the game, because there is a different model for each race, male and female.</p></blockquote>I am well aware of this.

[ZexisStryfe]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>This particular case (and many others) are a new colour texture only.. however for each armour model there are many bump map sets as well (robes are the most obvious example in fact, almost all robes in the game share this model, but there are dozens of bump maps) You are unfortunately completely wrong about how this colour texture is applied in the game, as it actually consists of a new dds texture file for the colour channel. your idea for a colour system has nothing to do with this game, and in fact would not produce the kind of results you see or expect to see, as you cannot simply retint a colour and expect it to look right (the visible colour map is a result of red green and blue values for each pixel) direct transforms like this are notoriously bad in practice and limiting in the extreme in terms of the result. You basically cant achieve something that gives both a black, a rich blue, and a white as alternatives.</p><p>Shaun</p></blockquote><p>I don't mean overlaying a tint over the entire model. You are correct, that would produce muted colors, particularly if there was another color underneath. What i am talking about is two distinct areas of the model with no color info that are assigned on the fly basically. In these examples, i speak of the blue/grey and the green/yellow areas. If you look at all of the robes based on this pattern, you will notice they all have the same black area as the Liandrin robe. This third color is an actual set color in the robe's pattern. The other two areas, however are what vary. Several other robes show this too, such as some of the brown lining in the Robe of the Oracle. I suppose i did confuse the issue by calling it tinting, since it really isn't. Its more like color by numbers ;op</p><p>Now, as to whether or not this is bad design and such... I am not going to argue that. I think creating a game that requires alterations for somewhere in the area of 72 different models for each armor model to be great evidence that good practices are not always used.</p>

[Armawk]

<cite>Vulkoor@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't mean overlaying a tint over the entire model. You are correct, that would produce muted colors, particularly if there was another color underneath. What i am talking about is two distinct areas of the model with no color info that are assigned on the fly basically. In these examples, i speak of the blue/grey and the green/yellow areas. If you look at all of the robes based on this pattern, you will notice they all have the same black area as the Liandrin robe. This third color is an actual set color in the robe's pattern. The other two areas, however are what vary. Several other robes show this too, such as some of the brown lining in the Robe of the Oracle. I suppose i did confuse the issue by calling it tinting, since it really isn't. Its more like color by numbers ;op</p><p>Now, as to whether or not this is bad design and such... I am not going to argue that. I think creating a game that requires alterations for somewhere in the area of 72 different models for each armor model to be great evidence that good practices are not always used.</p></blockquote><p>Its not any of that its just that they actually use a different colour texture for each model (Im not theorising, this IS how it works, Ive seen the files). The reason the design matches is that it follows the bump mapping, and because whoever made them in photoshop didnt make any new design for the parts that arent bump related. (What I said about your method not working is because changing the rgb value will not allow the same thing to be both black, royal blue, and white.. much more information than an rgb value is needed for that)</p><p>However the 72 model thing is, independently of that, is pretty bad, hence the skeletal revamp.</p>