Curiosity killed the cat....meow? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

View Full Version : Curiosity killed the cat....meow?

Valdaglerion

07-12-2007, 12:50 PM

This is not, at the current time, a high priority for devs as other things are squeeking more, not a problem. This is more a fact finding mission for my own curiosity. Through other threads we have already seen that many people have multiple toons in the higher levels of crafting and apparently have multiple accounts as well. Previously I suggested the ability to aquire and skill craft after craft on a single toon (level to max cap and earn the right to get the next one, rinse and repeat). Various arguments were made which seem to fall by the wayside in light of more recent information. Given that -I have a certain playstyle. I am in no way saying that everyone does, want or even should play my way but I am curious as to how many people share this/these same desire(s):<ul><li>Allow both Tinkering and Transmuting as supplemental skills. Tinkering should not be exclusive of Transmuting as too many items are No-Trade and/or Tinkerer only. Every toon should have the ability to do both. These skills are both very expensive and time consuming to max. The answer of respec'ing is a joke. I have estimated the cost of skilling these trades to max at well over 100p, not including time, if you buy the materials to do it on the broker (and only if you use lower tier items and dont use the advanced recipes). I have yet to meet anyone that is going to give up Transmuting to take up Tinkering. I have however, met many people in-game that are bitter about the way Tinkering turned out and have stopped Tinkering all together on alts and several that ditched Tinkering to take up Transmuting due to the No-Trade and Tinker only items. Many people have expressed an interest in taking up Tinkering but not at the expense of Transmuting.</li><li>Allow us to max all crafts on a single toon. Even in the real world it is becoming more and more rare to have a single focus in your career for your entire working life and multi-tasking is becoming more prevalent in our society. I previously suggested the requirement of having to max your previous skill before you get the additional training for the next. Get part way through one you dont like you get to return ot the crafting trainer and ditch it and get another one. (this is simplified, the details were included previously). As a developer in RL it has become vital to know more than a single programming language as projects are fluid and move throughout them based on current market needs. The same is true in EQ2. As markets change or small peaks and valleys arise we see changes in the demand for various items, hence we have created alts solely for the purpose of meeting those needs.</li></ul>Scenarios which are annoying:<ol><li>Yeah, I have a 70 Sage that can do that for you, hold on, let me log and get that one for you</li><li>Sure, I can make the backpacks and sales crates, gotta switch toons</li><li>Provisions arent profitable, markets flooded, let me put this toon away for the next month and play someone else (good thing I have someone else to play)</li><li>Loss of customer list because the customers get to know a particular toon name or have to have all the alts listed on friends list to or manual list so they can send mail, not knowing which toon you might check</li><li>Single toon not being able to be flexible and respond to market changes with respecing their tradeskill and starting over. Grinding is not fun. Starting over is not fun. Making things people need can be fun!</li></ol>Seriously, take alts out of the equation. In a real scenario many of our toons would starve due to the market variations. If you did not have alts, would you still be ok with only being able to have a single crafting skill for the rest of your EQ2 life and the only way to change it was to spend weeks to months grinding through the levels again only to realize that by the time you did, you were once again in a skill the market didnt need at the moment.Now, yes I know we have alts and we can work around the situation by using them but should we have to? Again, I am not trying to stir the pot or get anyone up in a tizzy, I am just curious to see where others opnions lie on this suggestion now.So my question is simple - how do you feel about the ability to have all crafts on a single toon? (Think awesome time sink here SOE, it will take a lot of play time to ever accomplish this)Many thanks for your insights~

dartie

07-12-2007, 01:21 PM

I don't want to sound like some anti-corporate whiner, so I'll preface this by saying that I think SOE delivers a quality product for what I pay. I don't think they're an evil, money-grubbing corporation, but I do think they are a corporation--and that they make many decisions based on the bottom line. That said, how could it be in their interest to let a single character master all 9 crafts? My wife has an EQ2 account that she uses maybe 3 days out of the month. She wouldn't have her own account if I hadn't pressured her. And I wouldn't have pressured her if I had been able to cover all 9 trades on a single account.I could have gotten Station Access to accomplish the same thing, but getting a separate account for her lets me:1) Sell out of 2 shops;2) Play with her when she feels like it;3) Two-box when I feel like it (which includes the very nifty option of mentoring one of my wife's alts when I need to go back for AA I missed); and4) Cover all 9 tradeskills.I'm kinda thinking that SOE is aware that all of these incentives exist for players to buy 2 copies of the game and pay 2 monthly subscription fees.I'm kinda doubtful that they will disincentive players from buying multiple accounts.And I'm kinda certain that the last thing you'll see on this forum is Domino saying, "We won't allow this mastercrafting idea because it may prevent us from earning more money." I don't think she'll say it, but I think it's true, and I think it's unrealistic to expect this change.And again, I don't think that makes SOE bad. All of this is just one guy's opinion, so do with it what you will.

TheSpin

07-12-2007, 01:28 PM

I don't think people would actually pay for multiple accounts just so they can cover all tradeskill classes. Theres 7 slots as it is so that only leaves 2 classes if you think in those terms.I think the idea is a good one. The other option for me would be to allow all characters on an account to sell at the same time...even if that meant they all used the same broker slots. I have a woodworker in Qeynos and my main is in FP and I hate transfering 30 stacks of arrows to my main so he can sell them.The only draw back I see to implementing something like this would be upsetting those who have alts for tradeskilling. I don't think that an option to consolidate all your tradeskill levels across your account into one toon would be fair.

Morgarag

07-12-2007, 01:38 PM

This is something I've thought about as well. Other games have allowed characters to be able to pick up every craft, leveling each craft's skills as they see fit. Like you mentioned, real life works that way too - you don't just get good at one thing while being completely incapable of even beginning on another. I thought it would be a great idea if we would be allowed to pick up different crafts based on reaching 70 in whatever your main craft is at any time, kind of a like a reward for your work. So, say I hit 70 doing provisioning - then I could "retire" provisioning and take up carpentry (or whatever). Once I hit 70 on carpentry, then I could take up alchemy. Sounds pretty much like your idea. There is a bad side to this arrangement though. Of all the MMOs I've played so far, this one by far has the best economy for crafters - for a reason. We make stuff that people can use, items that actually matter to people leveling up or raiding (or whatever). A system like the one we're talking about would eventually lead to everyone being able to make every crafted item, making the crafting economy crash. Why spend 2+ plat on a level 42 shield when you can make one yourself? True, people can still do this by rolling alts - but when you have to create another character and gear them up with bags, etc, it's a bit more of a control on how many people will take that extra step. I'm sure some people would also end up eventually having the same suite of crafts on multiple toons - I can't understand why anyone would do that, but I'm sure it would happen. I got to thinking about what could be done to remedy that situation, and could only come up with a couple of ideas: when you "retire" a craft and pick up another, you automatically lose some levels on that skill, like it could drop to 65 or something. This would benefit crafters who use the highest level recipes to make plat, but it still wouldn't address the problems lower level crafters would encounter. Another relates to how these things actually go in real life: when you retire from a profession, it's not like you all of a sudden are completely incapable of doing what you used to do - you just don't do it all the time anymore so you might get a bit rusty. Therefore, it would make sense if, when you switch crafts, you lose the ability to make the higher quality items like pristine items, or imbued. Losing pristine might be a bit of a stretch, but losing imbued might be more in line. In the case of provisioners, you pick up a much higher chance of failure for example. Or, we could simply have our highest tier buffs removed from our spellbook as those buffs more or less represent our ability to perform functions. One thing I think would be amazing about this arrangement is it more or less implies that some people will become specialists in a craft, meaning anyone who doesn't stick with a craft as their main will never be able to craft some select items. Anyway, I can't see this being an easy thing to implement at all. It could be an amazing thing for us crafters in terms of what we could make, but the economic implications could be awful (not to mention, I can't see this being implemented without an entire redesign of the whole crafting system in the game). Too bad really, I would love to be able to do every craft on my main.

Valdaglerion

07-12-2007, 01:51 PM

Economy was was reason given previously - now consider this:<ol><li>The economy is being worked by alts currently so it wont affect the amount of items in the market. </li><li>As a benchmark it takes roughly 3 months to skill a toon to 70 (if you plan and are diligent and play a lot). If you can only do one at a time (get to 70 before starting the next one) it will take years to accomplish maxing them all. No one will have a run on the market in that time or fail to have someone else make something for them. </li><li>Consider #2 - assume this is accurate. The market has a "potential" in the short and mid-term (next 1-48 months..LOL) to see increased pricing due to a drop off of played alts as the hard core crafters focus on a single main to work towards this accomplishment.</li></ol>RL economy -As already stated, and yes I believe this to be more fundamentally true - there is the potential for SOE to lose some accounts of those that have them solely for crafting; HOWEVER, I think it is more likely thsoe accounts would be kept for 2 boxing as many are now and for more new accounts to be created by an increased interest in the game overall. Crafting, while a supplemental piece to the MMO's could be instrumental. Think about it - there is typically as much activity in the forums over tradeskilling as general gameplay and quite honestly in more meaningful discussion IMO. I believe part of that is Domino's involvement and her apparent dedication to making TS meaningful.The gameplay forums are truly more rants than anything. Anyway...just interjecting for the moment...carry on. I am wanting to hear everyones thoughts on this.

Morgarag

07-12-2007, 03:19 PM

Sure the economy is partially being worked by alts right now. That's not everyone, but it's for sure a significant factor. Consider this though: if this change were to be implemented, that means everyone who has a crafting alt would also be receiving the same options. In that case, people could end up with with all of a sudden being able to take on two or more new crafts all the time. Say I maxed out my SK to level 70 in both adventure levels and crafting. Then I decide to start focusing on my necro whose already a scribe. I could then take up tailoring with my maxed out SK and all of a sudden I no longer have a need to buy spells, armor OR food/drink for my necro (my SK is a provisioner). Then there's one less character supporting other crafters, as well as one more character producing items that could be sold (while no new character, a potential consumer, has been created). True, this could be done currently with the alts system, but not if I already had so many crafting alts that I couldn't take up tailoring because everyone's already busy doing other crafts. Bearing this in mind, the problem becomes more about the number of suppliers than actual number of items on the market. I don't think people who are really into crafting would all of a sudden stop making alts for crafting - they would continue doing it to be able to level up multiple crafts at a time but with even more ease. Of course, you're right about the time frame. This is a very long term kind of situation with plenty of time for it to correct itself if needs be. If people are able to do things like I just described, though, the time frame could very well be a lot shorter than we imagine right now. What about crafting bots <shudder>? Anyway, not trying to come across as saying I don't think this would be a great thing. I'd LOVE for this to be implemented. I just think it would be a massive change to the game and would have to be approached really carefully by SOE (who have more than proven themselves anyway in terms of knowing how to make an in-game economy work).

StormCinder

07-12-2007, 05:13 PM

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is not, at the current time, a high priority for devs as other things are squeeking more, not a problem. This is more a fact finding mission for my own curiosity. Through other threads we have already seen that many people have multiple toons in the higher levels of crafting and apparently have multiple accounts as well. Previously I suggested the ability to aquire and skill craft after craft on a single toon (level to max cap and earn the right to get the next one, rinse and repeat). Various arguments were made which seem to fall by the wayside in light of more recent information. Given that -I have a certain playstyle. I am in no way saying that everyone does, want or even should play my way but I am curious as to how many people share this/these same desire(s):<ul><li>Allow both Tinkering and Transmuting as supplemental skills. Tinkering should not be exclusive of Transmuting as too many items are No-Trade and/or Tinkerer only. Every toon should have the ability to do both. These skills are both very expensive and time consuming to max. The answer of respec'ing is a joke. I have estimated the cost of skilling these trades to max at well over 100p, not including time, if you buy the materials to do it on the broker (and only if you use lower tier items and dont use the advanced recipes). I have yet to meet anyone that is going to give up Transmuting to take up Tinkering. I have however, met many people in-game that are bitter about the way Tinkering turned out and have stopped Tinkering all together on alts and several that ditched Tinkering to take up Transmuting due to the No-Trade and Tinker only items. Many people have expressed an interest in taking up Tinkering but not at the expense of Transmuting.</li><li>Allow us to max all crafts on a single toon. Even in the real world it is becoming more and more rare to have a single focus in your career for your entire working life and multi-tasking is becoming more prevalent in our society. I previously suggested the requirement of having to max your previous skill before you get the additional training for the next. Get part way through one you dont like you get to return ot the crafting trainer and ditch it and get another one. (this is simplified, the details were included previously). As a developer in RL it has become vital to know more than a single programming language as projects are fluid and move throughout them based on current market needs. The same is true in EQ2. As markets change or small peaks and valleys arise we see changes in the demand for various items, hence we have created alts solely for the purpose of meeting those needs.</li></ul>Scenarios which are annoying:<ol><li>Yeah, I have a 70 Sage that can do that for you, hold on, let me log and get that one for you</li><li>Sure, I can make the backpacks and sales crates, gotta switch toons</li><li>Provisions arent profitable, markets flooded, let me put this toon away for the next month and play someone else (good thing I have someone else to play)</li><li>Loss of customer list because the customers get to know a particular toon name or have to have all the alts listed on friends list to or manual list so they can send mail, not knowing which toon you might check</li><li>Single toon not being able to be flexible and respond to market changes with respecing their tradeskill and starting over. Grinding is not fun. Starting over is not fun. Making things people need can be fun!</li></ol>Seriously, take alts out of the equation. In a real scenario many of our toons would starve due to the market variations. If you did not have alts, would you still be ok with only being able to have a single crafting skill for the rest of your EQ2 life and the only way to change it was to spend weeks to months grinding through the levels again only to realize that by the time you did, you were once again in a skill the market didnt need at the moment.Now, yes I know we have alts and we can work around the situation by using them but should we have to? Again, I am not trying to stir the pot or get anyone up in a tizzy, I am just curious to see where others opnions lie on this suggestion now.So my question is simple - how do you feel about the ability to have all crafts on a single toon? (Think awesome time sink here SOE, it will take a lot of play time to ever accomplish this)Many thanks for your insights~</blockquote>I would only be in favor of this if unused skill eroded over time. That is, a trade that you don't do xx XP worth of work on in 7 days loses 25% of a level of XP. As the OP states, in RL people learn and develop new skills all of the time. But those skills also atrophy when unused (even programming). You have to continue to use them on a regular basis in order to perform at the same level/quality.If that were made a part of the system, I'd be behind it 100%. Without it, I am 100% opposed to this proposal.SC

Valdaglerion

07-12-2007, 05:26 PM

Ok, point taken. In order to effectively introduce decay you have added an entirely new level of complexity though. What constitues use? If I make a single Provisioner recipe in x days while working on my Sage skill is that enough to keep decay from starting?What about original learning versus ramp up speed? In took me about 6 months originally to learn VisualBasic but even after not using it at all for a year it took all of a week to pick it back up. Decaying a skill to re-create original learning will be in contradiction to the original idea.Personal opinion - decay is not necessary for this to occur. We are not talking about acquiring skills that are game breaking, we are talking more about instituting another level of achievement for people, like myself, that are jsut achievement freaks and want to do everything in game with a single toon just to say we did. Kinda like climbing mt everest. Nothing at the top but a view but for those that have seen it....well....different story.

Aurumn

07-12-2007, 05:31 PM

As someone who would love to have one of each crafter on my account, I still find giving each toon the ability to take on all tradeskills a bit excessive. Partially because it isn't necessary and partially because of the economic impact. There either needs to be an erosion of the "retired" skill or perhaps limit multi-crafting to related trades. For example we already pick either Craftsman, Outfitter or Scholar at level 10 so keep this restriction. Once your Armorer gets to 70 and decides he wants to branch out, take up weaponsmithing or tailoring. They would involve logically similar skills and would make more sense in my opinion. This would limit a character to 4 skills at most (3 in subclass plus either tinkering or transmuting). I would think this, when implemented over your 7 character slots would be more than enough versatility. After all, you only have so many bank slots. How well stocked could you possibly be if you had to store 9 (or 10 with trans/tink) skills worth of materials and products? In a backwards sort of way this would make it easier for crafters to roll alts as you wouldn't have to decide which tradeskill to sacrifice in order to reroll a toon. "Wow, I'd really like to try out a necro... hmm, shall I delete my provi or my sage? ACK!" All that aside, I'm actually content with the way things are currently. Especially with the new ability to change your mind on your choice of trade. Just my 2cp.

StormCinder

07-12-2007, 05:47 PM

If we take your rebuttal to decay to heart, then we should look at other aspects of picking up additional TSs. If I'm a "Master" Armorer, shouldn't I have the basics of working with metals down already? Should I have to start at level 1 when I decide to become a Weaponsmith? Or even level 10 or 20? How do you code that? It's as difficult as decay.The more I think about, the less the proposal makes any sense.Add to that the folks over in the other forums. It was about 4 hours after the TS respec came out that people were looking for their ADV respec. I have no doubt that they will eventually get it. If your proposal were to become reality, it would also follow for adv class. It's a slippery slope.The current system is fine as is. You've convinced me of that now.SorrySC

Valdaglerion

07-12-2007, 06:06 PM

Erys@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I don't think people who are really into crafting would all of a sudden stop making alts for crafting - they would continue doing it to be able to level up multiple crafts at a time but with even more ease. </blockquote> I dont know. I cant speak for everyone obviously but this would defeat the purpose, or at least the purpose i originally intended. As I leved my main through the various crafts I would cease using the alts with that craft. Having multiple toons capable of doing all the crafts I couldnt understand. Maybe there is someone that would do it but why is beyond even me on this one.

TheSpin

07-12-2007, 06:11 PM

Valdaglerion

07-12-2007, 06:20 PM

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote>If we take your rebuttal to decay to heart, then we should look at other aspects of picking up additional TSs. If I'm a "Master" Armorer, shouldn't I have the basics of working with metals down already? Should I have to start at level 1 when I decide to become a Weaponsmith? Or even level 10 or 20? How do you code that? It's as difficult as decay.The more I think about, the less the proposal makes any sense.Add to that the folks over in the other forums. It was about 4 hours after the TS respec came out that people were looking for their ADV respec. I have no doubt that they will eventually get it. If your proposal were to become reality, it would also follow for adv class. It's a slippery slope.The current system is fine as is. You've convinced me of that now.SorrySC</blockquote>Actually, this part is already done. Its the reason the respec goes back to 9 currently. There are 3 sub types - Artisan, Outfitter, Scholar. You choose one at level 9, everything below that is basic skills acquired by all. Here are the details -<ul><li>You reach 70 as a Sage - you got to the crafting trainer and request additional training (you are presented with the level 10 choices).</li><li>If you choose Scholar (of which you are one already) you are then presented with the level 20 choices with the exception of Sage which you have already completed. Should you choose Outfitter, then you are presented with thsoe choices and begin at level 10.</li></ul>As far as multi- classing crafting. That code is done as well, we know that when secondary classes were added. The hurdles on this one arent technical at all. They may be resource availability but not technical.As for respecing adventuring - sure. I will say the same thing here as the other forums and I think everyone agrees on that as well - you want to respec a 70 Zerker to become a Necro - fine. You get respeced to a level 1 necro and your toon starts over with nothing bu t crafting skills in place. All spells, gear etc go poof.Multiple classes on an adventuring toon - that poses technical challenges to say the least due to racial traits, spell usages, and a host of other things. In a way SOE is already addressing the desire for multi-classing adventuring in a backhanded way, its called Tinkering. The items the tinkerers make are the most sought after class specifics in the game - FD, Rez, Pets and other little things - underwater breathing, hover crafts, root, etc. It appears as though they wanted to give people a way to get those things without demanding multi-classing just to get those 1-2 things from particular classes.

Morgarag

07-12-2007, 06:27 PM

That's not what I meant though. What I meant is that people would have easier opportunities to level multiple crafts simultaneously, rather than people having multiple characters leveling up the same crafts. I know if the mechanism existed, and my main was maxed out in adventure level and crafting level, I'd be inclined to pick a new tradeskill on my main that complimented my alt's needs, while having my alt doing a different tradeskill that complimented him as well (instead of rolling yet another alt to take up the craft I want). This could easily enough be done with alts now of course, but this idea would make it even easier - since as it is right now you can't have enough alts to cover having all the tradeskills. It's a matter of added convenience really, and added convenience is how you promote getting more people to do things.

Valdaglerion

07-12-2007, 06:42 PM

Erys@Najena wrote: <blockquote>That's not what I meant though. What I meant is that people would have easier opportunities to level multiple crafts simultaneously, rather than people having multiple characters leveling up the same crafts. I know if the mechanism existed, and my main was maxed out in adventure level and crafting level, I'd be inclined to pick a new tradeskill on my main that complimented my alt's needs, while having my alt doing a different tradeskill that complimented him as well (instead of rolling yet another alt to take up the craft I want). This could easily enough be done with alts now of course, but this idea would make it even easier - since as it is right now you can't have enough alts to cover having all the tradeskills. It's a matter of added convenience really, and added convenience is how you promote getting more people to do things. </blockquote> True. You could still use alts and pick up all the skills faster no doubt. You might end up with 6 toons that combined can do them all rather than the 20+ whatever it is now. I see what you mean. I dont see it as a problem either way. Might just be me though, I apparently have a different view when it comes to such things.

Mighty Melvor

07-12-2007, 07:51 PM

I think what is being missed here is SOE's attempt at creating a community. If all tradeskills were on one toon, you would have no need for any other toons/guilds/anyone for that matter.The game is already too solo-friendly as it is now. Thanks to the WoW crowd.Remember what EQ2 already took out of TSing: 1. Dependance on other tradeskiiles for sub-components 2. Now they remove sub-components altogetherNow you want all the tradeskills in one toon?This change would erode the EQ2 community even further and I wouldn't be for that!Find some fellow crafters, exchange raws, network, help your guildies, make friends!!! <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

StormCinder

07-12-2007, 08:53 PM

Ok. I'm still interested (opposed, but interested <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). Now, I admit I've not done a TS respec yet. And I've not gone through a betrayel with a toon, but...When you respec a TS, are your buffs/counters reset to applicable level (9)? My understanding is that when a toon betrays, it is forced to change classes (the evil/good opposite of it's current class) and all CAs/spells are reset appropriately.I'll review the forum for the respec rules, but was curious how this part figures into your idea?SC

Deson

07-12-2007, 09:40 PM

I can support the tinkering/transmuting change and have argued such in the past, the other changes however just wouldn't work for this game.Ignoring coding issues because yes, they do still exist, there really isn't too much difficulty in raising all 9 at once. I can certainly agree with the having to swap to get to an alt problem but that's the game and no different than swapping adventure alts(and yes, I've made the argument for a FF style class swap as well). The more self sufficient you allow players to become, the more impact you tend to have on the social factors in game. There is something to be said about game feel and the base trade changes just don't fit this established game world/community.

Zard

07-12-2007, 10:41 PM

Even I could have a single character with seven artisan classes I would not do it for one simple reason: Storage.Having seven characters with one artisan class each gives me seven times the space for storing raw resources, future recipe books (ones I'm holding onto so I can scribe when I reach the minimum level of the recipe book) and other goodies.