Struggling with a decision..... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Blazzo

07-12-2007, 12:33 PM

I have been playing EQ2 for about 2 years now very casually. The last 4 months I started a new job which gave me my evening free. I had always wanted to raid so I joined a very casual raiding guild.... before that I was instance shopping every night. Sometimes find a group, sometimes not. Had done every instance countless times and the game was really starting to get boring. So raiding comes along and saves me so to speak. I joined a guild that raided about 3-4 times a week and really could only do KoS zones consistantly. Now that was fun for awhile but I got the itch to see the EoF zones. Since I play a class that every raid guild seems to always be seeking I talked to the leader of the top raiding guild on my server. He told me they raid 6-7 nights a week and i have to be on call for all contested. I figured I would give it a shot. I have been there 2 weeks now and from a gaming perspective it has been incredible. In one night we cleared FTH, MMIS and Chel Drak without one wipe. Did EH in under 7 hours on a Saturday. The loot is incredible, the fights are very challenging and require skill and teamwork.... EVERYTHING I have wanted in the game....but -------- I seriously cannot handle the level of immaturity and the yelling and screaming. A few nights ago we did the new zone Throne of New Tunaria. We wiped quite a few times. On Ventrillo I heard every cuss word countless times, racist comments, talk about fecal matter, anti-[Removed for Content], drug chat, sexual references etc etc etc etc. There were honestly 10 seperate YELLING matches that were very personal and hurtful to people. I have never seen (or heard) anything like it. A lot of the guild is over 26 too, I was in total shock.There is no way I can handle any more nights of this yelling and stuff, period... but I don't want to go back to instance shopping after doing what I have done. THere are 2 other raid guilds that raid a lot but they are almost exactly like this one from what I hear. Isnt there a hardcore raiding guild that has a policy of respect, civility and calmness? Do they exist? I want to raid and want to raid the way this guild does, but cant handle the attitudes. I just know if I go back to instances I will get bored and possibally quit.What should I do?!?!

Snowdonia

07-12-2007, 12:46 PM

Only three things you can do. Say something and hope it gets better (small chance of that happening, you never know). Shut up and put up with it. Save your sanity, leave, and take your chances with the boredom. I can't STAND real guilds personally, much less raiding guilds. And this was before voice chat clients. Too much stress and by your accounts, immaturity to boot. I'd take the possibility of boredom and the sanctity of my sanity over phat lewts any day! Anyways, there's always RoK in Nov. And the new Harry Potter book comes out on the 21st for the short term. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

espy

07-12-2007, 12:53 PM

There tends to be a lot of arrogance around high end guild, it comes with being the best, and ppl start to think they can achieve anything, then get away with anything. You are always going to get immature people (of all ages) in any given guild, the question is the balance, and how mature/tolerant the top guys are.Obviously you need to quit your guild. Try the other guilds, if for no other reason only to see if there are like minded people there. You spend a substantial amount of time in game, so get to know the mature raiders and try forming your own guild if you have to,Last resort might be to switch server if you find a suitable guild elsewhere.

Camibella

07-12-2007, 12:58 PM

<cite>Blazzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>On Ventrillo I heard every cuss word countless times, racist comments, talk about fecal matter, anti-[Removed for Content], drug chat, sexual references etc etc etc etc. There were honestly 10 seperate YELLING matches that were very personal and hurtful to people. I have never seen (or heard) anything like it. A lot of the guild is over 26 too, I was in total shock.What should I do?!?! </blockquote> Mute and Ignore! Seriously, unless its your officers / raidleader right click on there name, go to user, and select "Mute" =)If its an officer or a raidleader ask them to lead with a little more tact =)

SageGaspar

07-12-2007, 12:58 PM

In my experience it's tough to find 24 competent EQ2 players that you can put together on vent without it turning obnoxious in short order. Adults, kids, doesn't matter. Maybe we oughta pick a server and form up a raid guild of people that don't make you lose faith in humanity <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But really, if it's that annoying to you it's not worth staying. After that initial novelty of being able to conquer content, you're going to be doing the same thing over and over again for the next couple months until RoK with that same group of people. And if you don't like them, why would you put yourself through that? If you're really bored with the game, there's RoK in a couple months, and personally what's helped a lot for me is trying a class that's a lot different from what I played before. I've been almost entirely a melee fighter/scout player over the last couple years, and I just rolled an illusionist this time. It's really a completely different experience and makes the game a lot more interesting.

Cathars

07-12-2007, 01:18 PM

Rather than looking for a hardcore raiding guild, you might want to consider just a raiding guild. Change your standards and you'll have a ton more options so you can join the guild that fits you better personally. I promise you there's plenty of guilds out there that run orgainzed raids and have respectful voice chat. You may not be in the server's top one or two guilds in terms of content, but it'll be much more enjoyable. And to be honest ... the atmosphere of guild competition isn't what it was in EQ1. There may be other guilds on my server but I don't notice them or care what they're doing.

VizP

07-12-2007, 01:44 PM

Oddly I have not run into what you have described but I think its because of the way I have found myself in guilds both in this game and others. I tend not to approach guilds but let them approach me - that way I can decide whether we are appropriate for each other. As a healer this is an advantage obviously of the class being needed in raids amd to talk about my current guild, we have managed to achieve a balance of very respectable friendly people, we raid 3 to 4 days a week and are currently working on the EoF zones. I can't even recall if I have ever heard anyone swear on voice and everyone seems to know what they are doing and work wonderfully together. Ours is a Euro-heavy guild though but I think its a case of seeing whether the personalities of the guild match yours as well as the type of guild. Raiding is a lot of fun but depends a LOT on the company you have - not only do they need to be good but they also need to be decent people. The world we are in, high level raiding breeds arrogance and conceited people which are 'not' good company - as suggested above, look around, there 'are' guilds of decent people that can mix high level raiding and tactics with decency. But unlike hardcore loud mouthed raiders, they are a lot more quieter and modest so you would have to look a lot closer within the server.

Korpo

07-12-2007, 03:46 PM

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

Jeger_Wulf

07-12-2007, 03:51 PM

There are good rading guilds - keep looking. I've had the good fortune to raid with a couple.

Siclone

07-12-2007, 04:08 PM

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you. </blockquote>yeah it does. He is right they are wrong. This is a right and a wrong way. Foul language and fighting is the wrong way. people have kids and family members walking by, completely inappropriate to use gutter speak in Vent. fighting is not enjoyable, and ruins the game for the rest of the peeps. people rubbing you the wrong way is not his complaint. your comments our out of context. Foul language and people being abusive to each other is his compliant and he is right, thats wrong. Quite the guild. Allot of the top end guilds are just jerks and loud mouths, realize that before you join. There are good guilds that do blow though the content, but are very friendly and provide a fun atmosphere. Look for one of them.

Talz

07-12-2007, 05:17 PM

You are the people you willingly surround yourself with. The fact you came here and asked means that you know it isn't right. So the choice is to willingly spend your free time with people like that for items in a video game that your old guild can get better than in a few months or not. It's really that simple. On call in a video game... Tell them to join a basketball league or something. Every server has those guilds. Tell your real life friends about the situation. If you're too embarrassed to do that then perhaps it's a situation you shouldn't be in. I don't mean to be harsh but asking if spending six or seven nights a week with degenerates for video game loot is a silly question. Edit: typo

Lancaster38

07-12-2007, 05:35 PM

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you. </blockquote> Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.

Kendricke

07-12-2007, 06:30 PM

<cite>Lancaster38 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you. </blockquote> Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.</blockquote> You're confusing personal ethics with successful skillsets. A "well-run guild" is an incredibly subjective ideal. Just because we don't allow such tirades in my guild doesn't mean we don't fully understand that other guilds have much looser standards on language than we do. It certainly doesn't mean the guild isn't "well-run".If you heard half the locker room talk from top dollar professional athletes who were competing at the absolute top levels of their sport, I imagine you'd find yourself just as shocked by "hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene ... chat". I'd certainly say that it has little to do with how "well-run" the team is, wouldn't you?Each guild is different. So long as the standards are known before joining, there's not really much one can do regarding the guild itself. Just as I've had a few confrontations with members who joined my own Legion not realizing how strict we locked down chat (they felt we were too restrictive), I can certainly empathize with a guild officer who is suddenly dealing with a new member who feels the chat is too loose. We hold our guild membership to some fairly strict standards of speech. This does not correlate to skill or success, however. Other guilds have looser standards. Neither is any more "right" than the other, so long as the officers and members stick to their own standards.

Korpo

07-12-2007, 06:41 PM

dpsman

07-12-2007, 06:44 PM

Well lets face it, age dosn't really matter. Seriously your surrounding yourself with people that commit their life to raiding 5.6.7 days a week and who knows how many hours each night. Anyone that spends that much time imo is iresponsible as an adult if they are one, I know I used to be there and put an end to it. I really wonder about parental supervision these days, does anyone here honestly think it's ok for a parent to allow a child to spend enough time online to be in a hardocre raiding guild? I was in one of the top high end guilds out of all servers in EQ1 and people were always treated with respect, any verbal abuse..etc, would most surely get you the boot. If that kind of behaviour is going on then it sounds like you have poor leadership, there is more to leadership than killing an imaginary pixel that hits back.

Korpo

07-12-2007, 06:54 PM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you. </blockquote>yeah it does. He is right they are wrong. This is a right and a wrong way. Foul language and fighting is the wrong way. people have kids and family members walking by, completely inappropriate to use gutter speak in Vent. fighting is not enjoyable, and ruins the game for the rest of the peeps. people rubbing you the wrong way is not his complaint. your comments our out of context. Foul language and people being abusive to each other is his compliant and he is right, thats wrong. Quite the guild. Allot of the top end guilds are just jerks and loud mouths, realize that before you join. There are good guilds that do blow though the content, but are very friendly and provide a fun atmosphere. Look for one of them. </blockquote>If people have kids and family members within earshot of language that they deem offensive, then those people need to make sure their kids and family can't hear the language, either by removing those people, turning off vent, getting headphones, or any of the hundreds of other solutions. If you choose to consume "offensive" content, then you need to take the responsibility to make sure those that might be offended aren't. Asking the content to change based upon your living situation is silly. Do you blame pornographers if you choose to watch pornography around your kids? Do you blame movie makers if you choose to watch a particularly violent movie around your kids? Do you blame Fear Factor if you turn it on during dinner and puke because you see someone eating a rotten horse? Actually, you probably do, we live in a society of victims. In case nobody told you, the internet and internet-based games are not kindergarten, nor are they Mayberry. Further, in case nobody told you, not everybody on the face of the earth holds the same values as you do, and one person's offensive content is another person's normal way of speaking. Obviously that guild isn't for this guy, just like Fear Factor isn't for me. Because I don't walk through life expecting it to change to suit my whims, I don't watch Fear Factor.

Lancaster38

07-12-2007, 07:03 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lancaster38 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you. </blockquote> Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.</blockquote> You're confusing personal ethics with successful skillsets. A "well-run guild" is an incredibly subjective ideal. Just because we don't allow such tirades in my guild doesn't mean we don't fully understand that other guilds have much looser standards on language than we do. It certainly doesn't mean the guild isn't "well-run".If you heard half the locker room talk from top dollar professional athletes who were competing at the absolute top levels of their sport, I imagine you'd find yourself just as shocked by "hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene ... chat". I'd certainly say that it has little to do with how "well-run" the team is, wouldn't you?Each guild is different. So long as the standards are known before joining, there's not really much one can do regarding the guild itself. Just as I've had a few confrontations with members who joined my own Legion not realizing how strict we locked down chat (they felt we were too restrictive), I can certainly empathize with a guild officer who is suddenly dealing with a new member who feels the chat is too loose. We hold our guild membership to some fairly strict standards of speech. This does not correlate to skill or success, however. Other guilds have looser standards. Neither is any more "right" than the other, so long as the officers and members stick to their own standards. </blockquote>So, why do you hold your guild membership to any standards, if it does not correlate to success? Let them say the worst things they can think, it's all good. You don't, because it would cause bad feelings, possibly a bad rep for the guild, and, inevitably, the guild disbanding. I would hope we can agree that there are certain standards in any guild's chat that contribute to a fun gaming experience...hate-fueled, or otherwise obscene talk wouldn't qualify. Just because you believe in some kind of ethical relativity on a guild-by-guild basis doesn''t make it okay. Sony looks down on obscene/harassing language anyway, so it doesnt matter what guild standards are. Also, MMO's are not analagous to locker rooms, due to the transient nature of the player base, a guild that doesn't keep watch on it's own chat is going to run into problems at some point. If I am understanding the OP correctly, there was little turmoil before the guild starting having difficulties and then the ugly language started up. Now the OP is posting here, struggling with the decision to leave the guild...there may be others in the guild who are thinking the same thing, and either they leave or say something to the leadership. Should the leaders not address the complaints, they will most likely lose potentially valuable teammates and the guild falls apart..and so, the tone and language of a guild has nothing to do with its success?

Korpo

07-12-2007, 07:05 PM

<cite>dpsman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well lets face it, age dosn't really matter. Seriously your surrounding yourself with people that commit their life to raiding 5.6.7 days a week and who knows how many hours each night. Anyone that spends that much time imo is iresponsible as an adult if they are one, I know I used to be there and put an end to it. I really wonder about parental supervision these days, does anyone here honestly think it's ok for a parent to allow a child to spend enough time online to be in a hardocre raiding guild?</blockquote>Most hardcore raid guilds don't allow children. How is a person "iresponsible as an adult" just because they choose to spend their time playing EQ2? My old job allowed me to sit around playing EQ2 all I wanted, as there was no expectation that I'd be at work unless there was work to be done. Somehow my video game playing made me "iresponsible as an adult", even though I used my maaaaaaaassive salary to pay all my bills, put extra away for a rainy day, play with my kid, keep the house clean, and have a social life? That you became "iresponsible as an adult" when you played too much EQ only reflects on you, not everyone that chooses to play video games for entertainment.

Korpo

07-12-2007, 07:22 PM

<cite>Lancaster38 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, why do you hold your guild membership to any standards, if it does not correlate to success? Let them say the worst things they can think, it's all good. You don't, because it would cause bad feelings, possibly a bad rep for the guild, and, inevitably, the guild disbanding. I would hope we can agree that there are certain standards in any guild's chat that contribute to a fun gaming experience...hate-fueled, or otherwise obscene talk wouldn't qualify. Just because you believe in some kind of ethical relativity on a guild-by-guild basis doesn''t make it okay. Sony looks down on obscene/harassing language anyway, so it doesnt matter what guild standards are. Also, MMO's are not analagous to locker rooms, due to the transient nature of the player base, a guild that doesn't keep watch on it's own chat is going to run into problems at some point.</blockquote> He holds his guildies to speech standards because he wants to. Other guilds don't hold people to speech standards because they don't want to. It's pretty simple. No, we cannot agree that there are certain standards that contribute to a fun experience, because different people have fun in different ways. Would you expect a minister and his family to have a fun experience at a Chris Rock show? Of course not, he'd probably find it crude and not in the least bit funny. Despite what the minister's family thinks, there are millions out there going to Chris Rock shows. Are they wrong? Is the minister? As for Sony, they can look down on all the obscene/harassing language they want. They can buy the Hubble telescope, turn it to the locker room at my high school, and look down on it 24x7. Fortunately, since Sony has nothing to do with guild Vent conversations, it doesn't matter what Sony thinks. Uh oh, I just called my boss on the phone and told him that this guy I play EQ2 with has carnal relations with other men. Sound the alarm!

Lornick

07-12-2007, 08:08 PM

Sarynety@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote> Mute and Ignore! Seriously, unless its your officers / raidleader right click on there name, go to user, and select "Mute" =)If its an officer or a raidleader ask them to lead with a little more tact =)</blockquote>I think this is your best bet. As long as you can hear the raid leaders commands you don't really need to hear the peons ripping into each other.

Lancaster38

07-12-2007, 08:30 PM

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lancaster38 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, why do you hold your guild membership to any standards, if it does not correlate to success? Let them say the worst things they can think, it's all good. You don't, because it would cause bad feelings, possibly a bad rep for the guild, and, inevitably, the guild disbanding. I would hope we can agree that there are certain standards in any guild's chat that contribute to a fun gaming experience...hate-fueled, or otherwise obscene talk wouldn't qualify. Just because you believe in some kind of ethical relativity on a guild-by-guild basis doesn''t make it okay. Sony looks down on obscene/harassing language anyway, so it doesnt matter what guild standards are. Also, MMO's are not analagous to locker rooms, due to the transient nature of the player base, a guild that doesn't keep watch on it's own chat is going to run into problems at some point.</blockquote> He holds his guildies to speech standards because he wants to. Other guilds don't hold people to speech standards because they don't want to. It's pretty simple.Okay, WHY does he WANT speech standards? Must I spell it all out for you? It's not as simple as wanting it or not, there are reasons for guidelines. No, we cannot agree that there are certain standards that contribute to a fun experience, because different people have fun in different ways. Would you expect a minister and his family to have a fun experience at a Chris Rock show? Of course not, he'd probably find it crude and not in the least bit funny. Despite what the minister's family thinks, there are millions out there going to Chris Rock shows. Are they wrong? Is the minister?And Michael Richards said "Ni**er" during one of his routines and was roundly criticized for it, and what's interesting is he wasn't making a joke, he was lashing out in anger at some hecklers. Do you think either he or the audience can look back on that and say it was fun? Similarly, angry and out of control slur-flinging in guild chat would not be considered fun by any reasonable person. Do you honestly think what happened in this guy's guild chat could be construed as anything other than an uncomfortable and offensive mess? Are you human? As for Sony, they can look down on all the obscene/harassing language they want. They can buy the Hubble telescope, turn it to the locker room at my high school, and look down on it 24x7. Fortunately, since Sony has nothing to do with guild Vent conversations, it doesn't matter what Sony thinks. Uh oh, I just called my boss on the phone and told him that this guy I play EQ2 with has carnal relations with other men. Sound the alarm! Ah, if this all happened in Vent, then you are correct. Sony has no power over that.</blockquote>

mellowknees72

07-12-2007, 08:42 PM

Jai1

07-12-2007, 08:49 PM

I think when the expectations of success cause frustration and people become distruptive and out of order, it's a bad atmosphere. I don't choose to be a part of guild whose drama prevails the communication and individuals see the game as transperent that allows immature behavior to come through. Not all guilds are like that. The best raid guilds IMO do not say much in chat and less on vent. I think my old GL said once that you can yell and scream all you want off the mic but not on it. One of my guilds did and I've had good luck on Najena although my raiding in on hold atm. Raid and guild leaders should primarily be talking on vent with information coming back to them from players when asked and not free-for-all VoIP.Sometimes there is a compromise between tolerable enviroments and successful raiding but that is not always the case. There are guilds that allow you to have a life and they still conquer the hardest content in the game. I think it depends on leadership. Adults running a guild like non-disruptive business unit and not like atheletes in the locker can have just as much success raiding. I think it boils down to the server and/or the guild's leadership as well as it's culture.

Korpo

07-13-2007, 02:39 PM

<cite>Lancaster38 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lancaster38 wrote: He holds his guildies to speech standards because he wants to. Other guilds don't hold people to speech standards because they don't want to. It's pretty simple.Okay, WHY does he WANT speech standards? Must I spell it all out for you? It's not as simple as wanting it or not, there are reasons for guidelines.He wants his speech standards because those are the standards he wants. Again, it's simple. You seem to have a problem understanding the fact that other people don't find enjoyment in the exact things you enjoy, or aren't offended at the exact things you are offended with. Just like some people prefer roast beef to turkey, or prefer blue shirts to red, or prefer brushing their teeth up and down to side to side, people have different preferences in what they want in a guild. Kendricke prefers his guild to be family-friendly, others don't care about that.If someone that likes roast beef came over to my house, and all I served was turkey, that person may not have a good time. That's fine, that's his choice, he can just not eat at my house anymore. It doesn't mean turkey is wrong and roast beef is right, it just means that his choice in meats is different than mine. No, we cannot agree that there are certain standards that contribute to a fun experience, because different people have fun in different ways. Would you expect a minister and his family to have a fun experience at a Chris Rock show? Of course not, he'd probably find it crude and not in the least bit funny. Despite what the minister's family thinks, there are millions out there going to Chris Rock shows. Are they wrong? Is the minister?And Michael Richards said "Ni**er" during one of his routines and was roundly criticized for it, and what's interesting is he wasn't making a joke, he was lashing out in anger at some hecklers. Do you think either he or the audience can look back on that and say it was fun? Similarly, angry and out of control slur-flinging in guild chat would not be considered fun by any reasonable person. Do you honestly think what happened in this guy's guild chat could be construed as anything other than an uncomfortable and offensive mess? Are you human?As I said, Chris Rock sells out venues left and right, plus has 560,345 movies, TV shows, and CDs under his belt. Many people find him offensive, but obviously not everyone. That you do or don't is irrelevant, the fact remains that a (large) segment of society thinks crude and offensive talk is funny. Those that choose to consume this content have every right to, those that choose not to have every right to avoid it. Those that choose not to see Chris Rock do not have the right to tell others they can't see Chris Rock. As for Sony, they can look down on all the obscene/harassing language they want. They can buy the Hubble telescope, turn it to the locker room at my high school, and look down on it 24x7. Fortunately, since Sony has nothing to do with guild Vent conversations, it doesn't matter what Sony thinks. Uh oh, I just called my boss on the phone and told him that this guy I play EQ2 with has carnal relations with other men. Sound the alarm! Ah, if this all happened in Vent, then you are correct. Sony has no power over that. That's why we read the original post before we start commenting, it helps prevent us from looking stupid. </blockquote> </blockquote>

Levatino

07-13-2007, 03:51 PM

maybe I'm old fashioned but if you think it's wrong then say you think it's wrong.. Tell them to stop there foul language, I hope you are not the only one thinking that, so stand up against it and perhaps you'll find others who think the same way Also if they continue report them.

Stuge

07-13-2007, 04:08 PM

<cite>Blazzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>What should I do?!?! </blockquote> Start your own. Seriously.

KBern

07-13-2007, 04:15 PM

KBern

07-13-2007, 04:15 PM

Double Post

KBern

07-13-2007, 04:22 PM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>maybe I'm old fashioned but if you think it's wrong then say you think it's wrong.. Tell them to stop there foul language, I hope you are not the only one thinking that, so stand up against it and perhaps you'll find others who think the same way Also if they continue report them. </blockquote> Sorry, you cannot report people to SOE for how they talk in Vent. The world doesnt work that way.Korpo has it right...no matter how we each personally agree or disagree with actions or behavior, some thrive in that atmosphere, some detest it.If the atmosphere you put yourself in does not agree with your personal standards, then leave. The answer is simple.

Kardg

07-13-2007, 04:27 PM

Korpo wrote: "A lot"I find it somewhat amusing that no one can see the point your making, and a quite valid one at that. I whole heartedly agree with the statements made.side note* The most funny statement by far goes to the fellow who said "Report them"; Now that is rich.

Korpo

07-13-2007, 04:48 PM

<cite>Kardgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Korpo wrote: "A lot"I find it somewhat amusing that no one can see the point your making, and a quite valid one at that. I whole heartedly agree with the statements made. </blockquote> Edumacating the interwebs, one post at a time.

Agaxiq

07-13-2007, 05:00 PM

My only suggestion - You need to be prepared to switch servers. register at eq2flames, which is where many hardcore players hang out. Yes, I would bet at least a handful of people from your guild lurk and/or post there if they are really hardcore, and yes, you see lots of stuff you are trying to avoid by going there. However, not everyone is like that, and you probably have a better chance getting "recruited" (especially if you have a desired class) by someone who meets your needs. <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74</a> That forum is where you can post who you are to see if a guild out there is a match. Only real catch is you might find a guild you like and have to spend $50 to transfer servers. That is, if you've exhausted the supply of guilds on your server. agressiv

Levatino

07-13-2007, 06:01 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>maybe I'm old fashioned but if you think it's wrong then say you think it's wrong.. Tell them to stop there foul language, I hope you are not the only one thinking that, so stand up against it and perhaps you'll find others who think the same way Also if they continue report them. </blockquote> Sorry, you cannot report people to SOE for how they talk in Vent. The world doesnt work that way.Korpo has it right...no matter how we each personally agree or disagree with actions or behavior, some thrive in that atmosphere, some detest it.If the atmosphere you put yourself in does not agree with your personal standards, then leave. The answer is simple.</blockquote>the world doesn't work this way? Racist talk is in many countries against the law, so hell you can report them. Maybe if there account is banned for several days they learn to understand what is appropiate and what is not.. And if it isn't in the EULA then perhaps it should be.. But ok reporting aside, he can speak his mind in chat that he doesn't want them to talk like this. i mean what's the harm if he did? Kick him out? To my understanding he was very much needed..

Spider

07-13-2007, 07:44 PM

see a good raiding guild might ahve fun and razz eachother a bit but will NEVER allow the type of behaivor your talking about im in the top freeport raiding guild on a PVP server where you would assume trash talk is at an ultimate high but other that the occasional poking fun at eachother and good natured ribbing ( and the occasions dirty joke or 2 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> none of what your describing would EVER be allowed esspecialy in vent on a raid on raid chatter is kept to a minum and were focused on thetask at hand and we dont blame and point fingers on a wipe we simply roll with the punches figure where we went wrong and correct it next pull so take heart not all raid guilds are that way ( although there are a lot) if u cant find one on your server consider a move to another server make an alt and talk to the various raid guilds and get an idea from them where there like b4 making a decision and reroll or transfer if u want dont let the I R 1337 Ra1d0rz attitude kill the game for ya

Korpo

07-13-2007, 07:52 PM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>the world doesn't work this way? Racist talk is in many countries against the law, so hell you can report them. Maybe if there account is banned for several days they learn to understand what is appropiate and what is not.. And if it isn't in the EULA then perhaps it should be.. But ok reporting aside, he can speak his mind in chat that he doesn't want them to talk like this. i mean what's the harm if he did? Kick him out? To my understanding he was very much needed.. </blockquote> Speaking out against the government is in many countries against the law. Having a gun is in many countries against the law. Letting a woman drive or vote or go outside without her husband is in many countries against the law. Good thing none of these laws matter one little bit in the world of EQ2. You are more than welcome to move to a country that suppresses people's unpopular speech if you are unable to protect yourself from it by simply being an adult. Yes, the EULA should regulate how people talk over Vent. Good plan, that. Next you'll ask for the EULA to be modified so you can't talk bad about people on the phone, real life, or via smoke signals.

Innermirror

07-13-2007, 09:31 PM

I personally would like to leave this guild if i were in this raiding guild, not to blame those who said so-called "bad words," but to save my paid money from the sufferring from differences of ethics. I never know those who said bad words in the game (yeah, EQ2 is a game). Maybe the guys are releasing their angry, hate and agony in the game and so they can patiently treat their families, friends, bosses, strangers in their real life. We never know. I would like to invite you to look into your sufferring. When we said someone SHOULD/SHOULD NOT do something, it means we expect someone to do/not to do something that he/she didnot meet our ideals. However, who are we to tell others they should meet our ideals? In real life, we are not Coercers of EQ2, and apparentlly other people don't grow like charmable mobs at all. Please read the book "Loving What Is" by Byron Kate & Stephen Mitcheell, and end the sufferring.

Tokam

07-13-2007, 10:24 PM

<cite>Blazzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>...Since I play a class that every raid guild seems to always be seeking I talked to the leader of the top raiding guild on my server. He told me they raid 6-7 nights a week and i have to be on call for all contested. I figured I would give it a shot......I have been there 2 weeks now and from a gaming perspective it has been incredible. In one night we cleared FTH, MMIS and Chel Drak without one wipe. Did EH in under 7 hours on a Saturday. The loot is incredible, the fights are very challenging and require skill and teamwork.... EVERYTHING I have wanted in the game....but -------- I seriously cannot handle the level of immaturity and the yelling and screaming......There is no way I can handle any more nights of this yelling and stuff, period... but I don't want to go back to instance shopping after doing what I have done... </blockquote>There is no way that I would leave myself in that situation. If you are the 'top' guild on your server then I take it that you are droping avatars. If I were in your position I would bow out gracefully of your current guild and join one on your server that has cleared Wuoshi. If they are good enough to drop Wuoshi then they will be clearing all of the t7 raid zones in 4 days, giving you more time for other stuff, a more relaxed enviroments, and less dickheads.One other alternative exists, if you are good enough to be accepted in an avatar killing guild then there are a lot of guilds worldwide that will be looking for a player of your skill. Hit the forums (here and eq2flames) and see who is recruiting for your class gamewide. Make sure that you explain to the recruiters exactly what your issues are with your current guild, along with what you expect from the guild you are applying to.This colour = edit

Levatino

07-14-2007, 06:39 AM

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>the world doesn't work this way? Racist talk is in many countries against the law, so hell you can report them. Maybe if there account is banned for several days they learn to understand what is appropiate and what is not.. And if it isn't in the EULA then perhaps it should be.. But ok reporting aside, he can speak his mind in chat that he doesn't want them to talk like this. i mean what's the harm if he did? Kick him out? To my understanding he was very much needed.. </blockquote> Speaking out against the government is in many countries against the law. Having a gun is in many countries against the law. Letting a woman drive or vote or go outside without her husband is in many countries against the law. Good thing none of these laws matter one little bit in the world of EQ2. You are more than welcome to move to a country that suppresses people's unpopular speech if you are unable to protect yourself from it by simply being an adult. Yes, the EULA should regulate how people talk over Vent. Good plan, that. Next you'll ask for the EULA to be modified so you can't talk bad about people on the phone, real life, or via smoke signals. </blockquote>so your point is racist talk should be allowed? My point is that if they use it in game they should be the option to do something about it. Btw you are refering to freedom of speech in my book that stops when the insulting of others begins. My other point was and that should be used more often is that the OP himself could say something about it. If it offends you then say it offends you, don't go whine on forum about but speak up.

Levatino

07-14-2007, 06:41 AM

<cite>Innermirror wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally would like to leave this guild if i were in this raiding guild, not to blame those who said so-called "bad words," but to save my paid money from the sufferring from differences of ethics. I never know those who said bad words in the game (yeah, EQ2 is a game). Maybe the guys are releasing their angry, hate and agony in the game and so they can patiently treat their families, friends, bosses, strangers in their real life. We never know. I would like to invite you to look into your sufferring. When we said someone SHOULD/SHOULD NOT do something, it means we expect someone to do/not to do something that he/she didnot meet our ideals. However, who are we to tell others they should meet our ideals? In real life, we are not Coercers of EQ2, and apparentlly other people don't grow like charmable mobs at all. Please read the book "Loving What Is" by Byron Kate & Stephen Mitcheell, and end the sufferring. </blockquote>eh in the last sentence you now ask us to do something..So you forget your own medicine?

Illum70

07-14-2007, 06:47 AM

I play EVE online and it's not at all odd to have 150+ people in the same TS/Vent channel, we seem to have NO problem making it work there while (arguably) tension and adrenaline rise a lot higher than in most other MMO's, yet it works nicely. Why? Because we as a group don't put up with idiots and morons, anyone who speaks up in a way he shouldn't or is annoying gets kicked, and if he's a repeating offender he gets banned. You just met a group of (immature?) people who fail/cba to communicate in a normal manner, leave the guild and find yourself another ane.

ashen1973

07-14-2007, 07:16 AM

I am not and have never been part of a raiding guild, so cannot comment on what they allow or frown upon. In an adult environment some bad language and adult-orientated humour is to be expected and, as long as no-one is offended, there is no problem with this. BUT Any comments that are derogatory purely on the grounds of race or sexuality (or disability for that matter) are WRONG. It doesn't matter if these comments are made on Vent, in guild-chat, on the telephone or via smoke signals. They are still WRONG. There can be no argument with this. Anyone who has the intelligence to switch on a computer should understand this. There are many reasons people use this kind of language and make these kind of comments. And the vast majority of these reasons are centred around fear (fear of the different or fear of their own sexuality). Any leader who allows this sort of talk is a poor, weak leader. (even if they have managed to lead a party of 23 other people to hit the right combination of buttons on their computer keyboards that kills Uberard the lvl 95^^^ epicx6). If I was part of a guild that allowed this. I would leave and then decide what to do in the future. I could not be a part of this (and sitting by and allowing this talk to happen is as bad as participating to me). Someone commented that this type of language is commonly used within sports teams. I have the good fortune to know a top-level sportsman who has played for several of the best teams in his field, and is a household name in the UK. And have discussed this with him and can say, from his experience, that this type of talk would NOT be tolerated in sport either. And anyone that engaged in it would , on first occasion, be issued with a wage fine (which would run into a minimum of a 5 figure sum) and on further offences, probably see him kicked from the team.

Naubeta

07-14-2007, 08:06 AM

What you can do is to be even more offensive then they are, but phrase things so that it starts to touch on what they care about. And then you when stop, and you'll find that they do too. -edit, you have to be very funny for this to work though :/

Kendricke

07-14-2007, 10:22 AM

<cite>Lancaster38 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kendricke wrote: So, why do you hold your guild membership to any standards, if it does not correlate to success? Let them say the worst things they can think, it's all good. You don't, because it would cause bad feelings, possibly a bad rep for the guild, and, inevitably, the guild disbanding. </blockquote>We're also not a high end raiding guild, so again, conduct does not necessarily correlate to success. We also limit ourselves to good only classess - do you want to start a discussion on whether or not guilds which limit their members' choices in class selection correlate to success? Frankly, you're using post hoc reasoning here to determine that conduct standards - strict or not - somehow cause success. Even if there's a correlation, that's not causality. Even then, if you truly wanted to start up a study on the subject, I'd wager that there are more successful top end raiding guilds with loose standards than there are with tight standards. If that's truly the case, as I suspect, then the correlation would actually be that looser standards correlate with success.Don't confuse personal ethics for organizational ability. George Patton was one of the most abusive, foul mouthed generals that ever served, and he encouraged similar tones among his men. Would you claim he wasn't "successful" as a military leader?

Kendricke

07-14-2007, 10:30 AM

Ashenshugar@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote> Any comments that are derogatory purely on the grounds of race or sexuality (or disability for that matter) are WRONG. It doesn't matter if these comments are made on Vent, in guild-chat, on the telephone or via smoke signals. They are still WRONG. There can be no argument with this. Someone commented that this type of language is commonly used within sports teams. I have the good fortune to know a top-level sportsman who has played for several of the best teams in his field, and is a household name in the UK. And have discussed this with him and can say, from his experience, that this type of talk would NOT be tolerated in sport either. And anyone that engaged in it would , on first occasion, be issued with a wage fine (which would run into a minimum of a 5 figure sum) and on further offences, probably see him kicked from the team. </blockquote>Again, we're comparing personal ethics and morals to organizational success. Personally, I'm very much against such language. I'm against it in public channels. I'm against it in my home. I'm against it at my workplace. I'm against it on these forums. However, that said, I respect the rights of others to be as ignorant as they wish to be in the privacy of their own channels. Start up your own forum, your own guild, or your own voicechat server and go wild with just about any type of speech you could want - provided you keep it out of my earshot. If I don't want to hear what you're saying, I'll avoid your forum, your guild, or your chat server. I'd advise the same for anyone here.Again, we can discuss what's "right" and "wrong" all the day long, and I'll happily join in the conversation as an interested party. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that discussion is about whether or not a guild is or is not "successful".

ashen1973

07-14-2007, 11:36 AM

I for one am not comparing an ethical/moral stance with sucess. In fact i put this in my post >> 'Any leader who allows this sort of talk is a poor, weak leader. (even if they have managed to lead a party of 23 other people to hit the right combination of buttons on their computer keyboards that kills Uberard the lvl 95^^^ epicx6).' By this , i mean that the guildleader has failed. Yes he/she may have succeeded in leading a group of people that are the best at what they do, in terms of killing computer generated creatures. But a good leader would have managed the same without allowing racial or sexually derogative comments within their organisation. So, a guild can be a roaring success at gameplay, but fail dismally at living to acceptable moral standards. As for suggesting that these type of comments are acceptable, as long as they are kept private. I strongly disagree with this. If i make a racially insulting comment, under my breath, to my self, with no-one else in earshot, does that make that comment any less ignorant, insulting, demeaning? No, i dont think so. The only way we can change the attitudes of the ignorant people who still believe it is ok to demean another human being because of the way they look or the kind of person they choose to live their lives with, is to discourage and fight against such attitudes, no matter if they are expressed in private or public. in reply to the PM i received. I am an English, white, heterosexual (In fact I am very happily married with children) and fast approaching middle-age (too fast infact <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). I have been known to sink the odd lager (or 5 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and use some colourfull language on occassion. But strongly believe that everyone has the right to live their life as they please (as long as no harm is brought to others). And also the right to go about their lives without ridicule or persecution.

Kendricke

07-14-2007, 02:01 PM

<blockquote><a href="mailto:Ashenshugar@Splitpaw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Ashenshugar@Splitpaw</a> wrote: I for one am not comparing an ethical/moral stance with sucess. </blockquote><blockquote><a href="mailto:Ashenshugar@Splitpaw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Ashenshugar@Splitpaw</a> wrote: So, a guild can be a roaring success at gameplay, but fail dismally at living to acceptable moral standards. </blockquote>

Savanja

07-14-2007, 02:13 PM

While a couple others are pounding their morality gavel, I'll get back to the ACTUAL point.. OP: Either you take a deep breath, relax, let it go and learn to be okay with the guild you are in, or you move on to another raiding guild that gets less worked up. This is a game and it is meant to be enjoyable. To the rest of you high horsed fools... Voice chat programs are generally privately hosted..therefore it works like a phone call. If you don't like what the people are saying, you have the right to not listen to it (ie..leave or ignore) but that is it. No one has the right to tell others how to act, speak, etc. You may not like it. You may think its wrong. But thats not really any of your business how they talk on THEIR voice chat.

Themaginator

07-14-2007, 02:29 PM

Talz

07-14-2007, 06:28 PM

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote> well hes got two choices, grow up and deal with it, or just leave. The reason hardcore guilds are the way they are is because they don't take this game as uber seriously as most others. i speak of acting like the game is the be all end all and we must ALL be serious about it...internet, it's serious business </blockquote>That is absolutely ridiculous. People devoting their lives to a video game don't act like idiots because they don't take the game serious. They act like idiots because they are idiots and take the game too seriously.

Echgar

07-14-2007, 06:45 PM

The tone being used in some of the posts in this thread is starting to lean towards personal attacks, insults, and namecalling. You are all welcome to disagree with each other, but please remain constructive and respectful with each other.

Spider

07-14-2007, 07:43 PM

<cite>Savanja wrote:</cite><blockquote>While a couple others are pounding their morality gavel, I'll get back to the ACTUAL point.. OP: Either you take a deep breath, relax, let it go and learn to be okay with the guild you are in, or you move on to another raiding guild that gets less worked up. This is a game and it is meant to be enjoyable. To the rest of you high horsed fools... Voice chat programs are generally privately hosted..therefore it works like a phone call. If you don't like what the people are saying, you have the right to not listen to it (ie..leave or ignore) but that is it. No one has the right to tell others how to act, speak, etc. You may not like it. You may think its wrong. But thats not really any of your business how they talk on THEIR voice chat. </blockquote> its not up to the game to enforce any rules on a privately run voice program however a good guild will police there own and not allow those sorts of things in my guild comments and behavior like the op is refering to will get u first kicked from vent and second kicked from guild there is no third chance in this situation it sounds liek the op needs to find a guild with similar beliefs

dpsman

07-14-2007, 08:06 PM

Long before he became the first president of the United States, a teenage George Washington transcribed a set of rules on civility, composed in the 16th century by Jesuit priests. Rule 49: "Use no reproachful language against any one; neither curse nor revile." The United States Constitution guarantees Americans the freedom of speech. In today's society, however, how do we, as American citizens, determine the "true" definition of speech? How do we protect the most vulnerable in the system, our children, from being harmed irrevocably by what they hear others saying? Unfortunately, the government has been unable to determine the limitations of this right. In early America, "when our forefathers wrote the Constitution, profanity was not accepted" (Shoeder 72). Today, even though many in our society have come to accept that profanity is an acceptable form of language, many others recognize that government officials should regulate its use, at least in certain areas, especially in those areas that affect children and youth. Worst of all are the people who are well aware of their lack of morale but unwilling to change it. They find gratification in making themselves feel superior to others, and making others, in turn, feel that they are somehow lower or that their beliefs are invalid. If someone was truly content and confident with the person he is and what he believes, he would have no reason to put down the beliefs of others. Furthermore, someone who curses or makes jokes at others, obviously places no value or importance on his own beliefs. If he did, he would realize beliefs deserve respect, regardless of how they may differ from person to person. Any kind of gratification derived from making offensive or disrespectful remarks is certainly not a positive one, and one should never revel in putting someone else down. There is nothing to be gained from it, except a reputation as a compassionless person. Perhaps we've become so accustomed to hearing offensive remarks and disrespectful comments that we've come to find them acceptable, but I think it needs reminding that they're not. How would you feel if someone answered you with a curse word or offensive statement? How would you feel if someone cursed (cussed) you out everytime you asked a question? It would get old and you would likely get angry and perhaps leave. Many of us spend a great deal of time online, behind our PCs. When we are online it is very difficult to know what the other person is actually thinking, especially because behind the screen, we are unable to see body language or hear their voice. Thus intentions are oftentimes lost. There's no need allowing a few people to ruin it by their innappropriate comments, vulgar use of words/phrases, etc. We each have our own screen names and perhaps they are our real name and maybe there not, but the point is, we are all human beings, we all have a conscious of some level or another and we all have feelings

retro_guy

07-14-2007, 08:30 PM

From my experience guilds that allow that sort of guild culture to eventuate will probably not be interested in changing. I was in one guild that from the outside appeared to be a really together raiding guild, but once inside I was supprised that the level of drama on the guild forums - they were tearing oneanother apart - but the culture of the guild was to "say anything and get it off your chest", which may or may not be a good thing! In private they were the drama guild. but when raiding everythign went like clockwork, and only the raid leader and MT were to be heard on Vent. Some other raiding guilds however won't allow anyone to say anything against the guild, so a very benign comment could be taken to be anti-guild and you could be kicked! This guild was really run by 1 person and if you rubbed them the wrong way, you were gone! However what you could do is look at your guild website and read carefully through the gulid rules - any decent guild has a clear set of guild rules and standards that members are bound to live by. You may find that racisim, gutter talk etc are covered there and it might be enough to bring it up quietly and tackfully with one of the guild leaders to ask if it's possible to bring the guild back (in Vent atleast) to the standards that have set down. If there are no standards set down, then you're probably out of luck, but if the guild rules do define acceptable behaviour then that can be used as a lever to get things back on track. The other thing is Vent - in any of the raiding guilds I have been in, the only people who have the right to talk are the raid leader and the tank - there should not be ANY other member speaking in Vent during raid times. Conversations should not be be being held on Vent during raids.

Korpo

07-14-2007, 11:51 PM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>so your point is racist talk should be allowed? My point is that if they use it in game they should be the option to do something about it. Btw you are refering to freedom of speech in my book that stops when the insulting of others begins. My other point was and that should be used more often is that the OP himself could say something about it. If it offends you then say it offends you, don't go whine on forum about but speak up. </blockquote>Of course racist talk should be allowed. Those with the most unpopular views require the most protection of their right to express those views, or would you rather just snuff out any opinion in this world that didn't agree with yours? As for your "book" on freedom of speech, it sounds like you don't want freedom of speech, you want freedom to share the same ideas as you.Also note that the OP does have the option to do something about it, he can turn off his speakers, leave the vent server, whatever. He has innumerable ways to prevent his fragile ears from language he doesn't agree with, but forcing others to conform to talk the way he wants them to is not one of those ways.

Korpo

07-14-2007, 11:56 PM

Korpo

07-15-2007, 12:02 AM

<cite>dpsman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Long before he became the first president of the United States, a teenage George Washington transcribed a set of rules on civility, composed in the 16th century by Jesuit priests. Rule 49: "Use no reproachful language against any one; neither curse nor revile." The United States Constitution guarantees Americans the freedom of speech. In today's society, however, how do we, as American citizens, determine the "true" definition of speech? How do we protect the most vulnerable in the system, our children, from being harmed irrevocably by what they hear others saying? Unfortunately, the government has been unable to determine the limitations of this right. In early America, "when our forefathers wrote the Constitution, profanity was not accepted" (Shoeder 72). Today, even though many in our society have come to accept that profanity is an acceptable form of language, many others recognize that government officials should regulate its use, at least in certain areas, especially in those areas that affect children and youth. Worst of all are the people who are well aware of their lack of morale but unwilling to change it. They find gratification in making themselves feel superior to others, and making others, in turn, feel that they are somehow lower or that their beliefs are invalid. If someone was truly content and confident with the person he is and what he believes, he would have no reason to put down the beliefs of others. Furthermore, someone who curses or makes jokes at others, obviously places no value or importance on his own beliefs. If he did, he would realize beliefs deserve respect, regardless of how they may differ from person to person. Any kind of gratification derived from making offensive or disrespectful remarks is certainly not a positive one, and one should never revel in putting someone else down. There is nothing to be gained from it, except a reputation as a compassionless person. Perhaps we've become so accustomed to hearing offensive remarks and disrespectful comments that we've come to find them acceptable, but I think it needs reminding that they're not. How would you feel if someone answered you with a curse word or offensive statement? How would you feel if someone cursed (cussed) you out everytime you asked a question? It would get old and you would likely get angry and perhaps leave. Many of us spend a great deal of time online, behind our PCs. When we are online it is very difficult to know what the other person is actually thinking, especially because behind the screen, we are unable to see body language or hear their voice. Thus intentions are oftentimes lost. There's no need allowing a few people to ruin it by their innappropriate comments, vulgar use of words/phrases, etc. We each have our own screen names and perhaps they are our real name and maybe there not, but the point is, we are all human beings, we all have a conscious of some level or another and we all have feelings </blockquote>It might be better to form your own thoughts, rather than <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~abqteach/linguistics/02-08-08.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">plagarizing the internet</a>. It might help to cut out the footnotes next time too.

Naubeta

07-15-2007, 07:39 AM

European raid guilds tend to be the most successful and their guild chat is often mocking americans in one way or another. So I suppose it's true, being winners and being nice doesn't always go together.

KBern

07-16-2007, 09:42 AM

Naubitzi@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>European raid guilds tend to be the most successful </blockquote> lol and where do you get those statistics from?

Levatino

07-16-2007, 10:45 AM

<cite>dpsman wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snipped </blockquote>very good post

Levatino

07-16-2007, 11:03 AM

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>so your point is racist talk should be allowed? My point is that if they use it in game they should be the option to do something about it. Btw you are refering to freedom of speech in my book that stops when the insulting of others begins. My other point was and that should be used more often is that the OP himself could say something about it. If it offends you then say it offends you, don't go whine on forum about but speak up. </blockquote>Of course racist talk should be allowed. Those with the most unpopular views require the most protection of their right to express those views, or would you rather just snuff out any opinion in this world that didn't agree with yours? As for your "book" on freedom of speech, it sounds like you don't want freedom of speech, you want freedom to share the same ideas as you.Also note that the OP does have the option to do something about it, he can turn off his speakers, leave the vent server, whatever. He has innumerable ways to prevent his fragile ears from language he doesn't agree with, but forcing others to conform to talk the way he wants them to is not one of those ways. </blockquote>You mix up two entirely different things. Everyone has the right to disagree and to argue. But to go namecalling and racist or anti-semtici language using is a completely different thing. If you want rights then you also have duties, for instance the duty to handle your freedom of speech correctly.

Korpo

07-16-2007, 03:57 PM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote> You mix up two entirely different things. Everyone has the right to disagree and to argue. But to go namecalling and racist or anti-semtici language using is a completely different thing. If you want rights then you also have duties, for instance the duty to handle your freedom of speech correctly. </blockquote>Again, you are trying to apply your values to other's speech, as if you are the one that decides which ideas are right and which ideas are wrong. You may think racist and anti-semitic speech is wrong, but others don't, and their opinion of what is right and wrong is no more or less valid than yours.

Naubeta

07-16-2007, 04:46 PM

Values are not opinions are not right/wrong. Their opinion is valid in as much as it is supported by reasoned arguments. Freedom of speech doesn't mean every statement is morally equivalent and equally true. To give an example: Believing in a racial theory (values) is not the same as believing the holocaust didn't happen (opinions) which is not the same as violence or abusive speech towards jews (this is wrong).

Rahatmattata

07-16-2007, 05:02 PM

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote>.................... And to be honest ... the atmosphere of guild competition isn't what it was in EQ1. There may be other guilds on my server but I don't notice them or care what they're doing. </blockquote> That's because there is no competition in instances unless you are competing for world/server disco's. Try going after some contested content (or even instanced server firsts) and you will quickly find that you want to know what your competition is doing.Unless of course you are killing contested and have no competition.

Illmarr

07-16-2007, 06:00 PM

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dpsman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Long before he became the first president of the United States, a teenage George Washington transcribed a set of rules on civility, composed in the 16th century by Jesuit priests. Rule 49: "Use no reproachful language against any one; neither curse nor revile." The United States Constitution guarantees Americans the freedom of speech. In today's society, however, how do we, as American citizens, determine the "true" definition of speech? How do we protect the most vulnerable in the system, our children, from being harmed irrevocably by what they hear others saying? Unfortunately, the government has been unable to determine the limitations of this right. In early America, "when our forefathers wrote the Constitution, profanity was not accepted" (Shoeder 72). Today, even though many in our society have come to accept that profanity is an acceptable form of language, many others recognize that government officials should regulate its use, at least in certain areas, especially in those areas that affect children and youth. Worst of all are the people who are well aware of their lack of morale but unwilling to change it. They find gratification in making themselves feel superior to others, and making others, in turn, feel that they are somehow lower or that their beliefs are invalid. If someone was truly content and confident with the person he is and what he believes, he would have no reason to put down the beliefs of others. Furthermore, someone who curses or makes jokes at others, obviously places no value or importance on his own beliefs. If he did, he would realize beliefs deserve respect, regardless of how they may differ from person to person. Any kind of gratification derived from making offensive or disrespectful remarks is certainly not a positive one, and one should never revel in putting someone else down. There is nothing to be gained from it, except a reputation as a compassionless person. Perhaps we've become so accustomed to hearing offensive remarks and disrespectful comments that we've come to find them acceptable, but I think it needs reminding that they're not. How would you feel if someone answered you with a curse word or offensive statement? How would you feel if someone cursed (cussed) you out everytime you asked a question? It would get old and you would likely get angry and perhaps leave. Many of us spend a great deal of time online, behind our PCs. When we are online it is very difficult to know what the other person is actually thinking, especially because behind the screen, we are unable to see body language or hear their voice. Thus intentions are oftentimes lost. There's no need allowing a few people to ruin it by their innappropriate comments, vulgar use of words/phrases, etc. We each have our own screen names and perhaps they are our real name and maybe there not, but the point is, we are all human beings, we all have a conscious of some level or another and we all have feelings </blockquote>It might be better to form your own thoughts, rather than <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~abqteach/linguistics/02-08-08.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">plagarizing the internet</a>. It might help to cut out the footnotes next time too. </blockquote>Plagerized or not, that's certainly a good debating strategy you use there. Cast aspersions upon the source of the post rather than actually comment on it. Well done!

Korpo

07-16-2007, 08:29 PM

Naubitzi@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Values are not opinions are not right/wrong. Their opinion is valid in as much as it is supported by reasoned arguments. Freedom of speech doesn't mean every statement is morally equivalent and equally true. To give an example: Believing in a racial theory (values) is not the same as believing the holocaust didn't happen (opinions) which is not the same as violence or abusive speech towards jews (this is wrong). </blockquote> To quote Wikipedia: Value is a concept that describes the beliefs of an individual or culture. A set of values may be placed into the notion of a value system. Values are considered subjective and vary across people and cultures. To quote the American Heritage Dictionary: A principle, standard, or quality considered worthwhile or desirable. And to quote Dictionary.com's unabridged dictionary: values, Sociology. the ideals, customs, institutions, etc., of a society toward which the people of the group have an affective regard. These values may be positive, as cleanliness, freedom, or education, or negative, as cruelty, crime, or blasphemy. Obviously values are opinions, they are opinions based upon your upbringing, culture, religion, etc. If you don't agree, try reading the definitions again. Nobody ever said every statement is morally equivalent or equally true, that much is obvious. However, freedom of speech has nothing to do with true statements, it has only to do with ideas and the expression of those ideas. Nobody needs to make a constitution guaranteeing the rights of people to say the sky is blue and water is wet, people make constitutions to guarantee the rights of people to have and express ideas that aren't popular. As for your example, you still offer no reasoning as to why offensive (to some) speech should be outlawed. Nobody here is advocating abusive speech or violence, merely the right for the guild in the OP to talk as they want. All you did is string together a bunch of opinions that someone may have, and then declare a fact that we all know. Nowhere in the "example" did you address any issues being discussed.

Korpo

07-16-2007, 08:37 PM

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>It might be better to form your own thoughts, rather than <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~abqteach/linguistics/02-08-08.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">plagarizing the internet</a>. It might help to cut out the footnotes next time too. </blockquote>Plagerized or not, that's certainly a good debating strategy you use there. Cast aspersions upon the source of the post rather than actually comment on it. Well done! </blockquote>I'd comment on the content of the post if any of it had to do with the discussion going on. Nobody is discussing whether people should or should not say things that offend, or whether it's a good idea, or what it says about them. The discussion at hand is about people's right to use this kind of language. Good debating strategy you use there, miss the point of the conversation entirely and spout off on unrelated topics. Well done!

Naubeta

07-17-2007, 06:59 AM

"Nobody ever said every statement is morally equivalent or equally true," Yes you did, reread your own post.

Levatino

07-17-2007, 07:52 AM

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snip As for your example, you still offer no reasoning as to why offensive (to some) speech should be outlawed. Nobody here is advocating abusive speech or violence, merely the right for the guild in the OP to talk as they want. All you did is string together a bunch of opinions that someone may have, and then declare a fact that we all know. Nowhere in the "example" did you address any issues being discussed. /snip </blockquote>In my opinion, there are limits to freedom of speech just as there are limits to any other basic human right. The first and main one is that of individual responsibility. Individual responsibility, by the way, is also one of the basic principles of Liberalism. Freedom of speech is a right. It is a right given to all citizens of the world, although unfortunately not all of them actually enjoy it, with the purpose of enabling them to speak freely in a free society. But with this right comes a duty: the duty not to use this right against its very purpose. Freedom of speech may not be used to threaten, insult or limit the freedom, dignity and privacy of others. In the ideal situation, everyone would have enough sense of responsibility not to abuse freedom of speech. In practice, this is obviously not the case. Also the rights of each individual are limited by the rights of others. F.i. you may think you have the right to insult people, those people also have the right to not hear things especially if they are in a game they use for pleasure. To me expressions of racism, xenophobia and intolerance should be forbidden. This is obviously a serious limitation to the freedom of expression of certain individuals and their organisations. But, although this is serious, I care more about other rights in this situation. I think that it is degrading and inhuman to confront Jews with texts from Hitler's "Mein Kampf" or to deny the murdering of six million Jews during the second world war. And I am of the opinion that this is the kind of degrading and inhuman treatment that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is referring to in article 5. In short the right of freedom of speech in some cases interferes with the rights of other individuals and the difference is how important are these two basic rights to one personally. It is extremely difficult to make choices between different rights. Also I acknowledge that different liberals with the same principles and ideals will make very different choices in this questions. I support the idea, however, that a basic human right may not be used for the destruction of the rights of others. And this principle is an important one, even though its practical implementation is not always easy. One cannot take a single human right and declare that the most important one. Human rights as defined in for example the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the UN are a delicate system of different rights. A balance between rights and a balance between rights and duties. In today's world, the ideas as sketched above will mean forbidding for example racist and anti-Semitic expressions. This is a controversy, I know. However, if we are not prepared to make controversial choices to protect our democratic and tolerant societies, we might lose them. A lesson history has taught us at the expense of millions of lives.

Kendricke

07-17-2007, 08:37 AM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also the rights of each individual are limited by the rights of others. F.i. you may think you have the right to insult people, those people also have the right to not hear things especially if they are in a game they use for pleasure. </blockquote>That's why the rules of conduct for the game cover public channels within the game. If you feel someone's crossing the line with their speech, you have the right to report that conduct to the channel owners (i.e. - SOE) for enforcement of policy. Of course, if you're in a non-SOE owned channel of communication and you dislike what you hear, you'd have to report that speech to the owners of THAT channel (i.e., whoever owns the Ventrillo server or message board forum you're on). In other words, if you're in my house, I have the right to be as offensive, degrading, and ignorant as I so desire. You have the right to leave my house, or in the worst cases, report my words to the proper authorities. However, none of this is germaine to the concept of success. I could be utterly offensive, degrading, and ignorant in regards to my speech, and still have perfect skills and organization when it comes to winning a race, defeating an opponent in a boxing ring, running a successful online business...or running a successful online gaming guild. I can be absolutely morally reprehensible and still find myself a brilliant raid leader. It's irrelevant. Moral standards do not equate to ability, skill, or organizational strengths. I could name several morally questionable (or outright offensive) facts about each of the American Founders. That doesn't mean they were not great leaders.

Naubeta

07-17-2007, 09:14 AM

Kendricke, what people are noticing is that you are actually linking offensive speech and behaviour with success certain activities. You aren't just saying they could go together (or equally might not), you are implying that they do. re. your suggestion that professional sports people would be racist/homophobic (where's that coming from?) re. your last post: "I could be utterly offensive, degrading, and ignorant in regards to my speech" "winning a race, defeating an opponent in a boxing ring, running a successful online business...or running a successful online gaming guild."

Korpo

07-17-2007, 11:52 AM

Naubitzi@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>"Nobody ever said every statement is morally equivalent or equally true," Yes you did, reread your own post. </blockquote>Nope, I didn't say it. You may have interpreted what I said as "Every statement is morally equivalent and/or equally true", but other than the sentence quoted here, I didn't say it.

Levatino

07-17-2007, 02:39 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snip However, none of this is germaine to the concept of success. I could be utterly offensive, degrading, and ignorant in regards to my speech, and still have perfect skills and organization when it comes to winning a race, defeating an opponent in a boxing ring, running a successful online business...or running a successful online gaming guild. I can be absolutely morally reprehensible and still find myself a brilliant raid leader. It's irrelevant. Moral standards do not equate to ability, skill, or organizational strengths. I could name several morally questionable (or outright offensive) facts about each of the American Founders. That doesn't mean they were not great leaders. /snip </blockquote>What has this got to do with the discussion? I mean you think you can affort to be morally wrong in a raid guild cause you are a great leader or something? Everyone will cope with your behaviour just cause you know how to play a couple of mobs the right way? Well good for you.. You can applaud yourself. Sure people think you are gone berserk in your morale agenda but hey you know how to play..

Kendricke

07-17-2007, 04:28 PM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>What has this got to do with the discussion? I mean you think you can affort to be morally wrong in a raid guild cause you are a great leader or something? Everyone will cope with your behaviour just cause you know how to play a couple of mobs the right way? Well good for you.. You can applaud yourself. Sure people think you are gone berserk in your morale agenda but hey you know how to play.. </blockquote> To be clear, I'm not referencing myself as any great raid leader at all. I've already made it clear that my personal feelings on the subject aren't necessarily those which I'm defending here - and really, that's a large portion of my overall point. Whether or not I'm personally offended by such speech is irrelevant to whether or not I feel such speech should be allowed within the privacy of an owned channel. I may not agree with the idea of racism, and I may think less of a person expressing such views, but that doesn't mean I think we should start kicking in doors and censoring people in their own homes. It's not too much of a slippery slope to determine that's not too far removed from Thought Police and Minisitries of Truth. Within the game, if I see public channels used to espouse views I feel are against the game's stated rules of conduct, I'm likely to report such actions. Within these forums, where the rules on the subject are clear, I'm likely to report such actions. Within my own guild's forums or channels, I'm likely to control our speech in ways I've determined match with morals and ethics which match our guild's chosen playstyles.However, I'm not about to advocate that my views on the subject are the only correct views. I'm not about to start advocating that we should start moderating others based on their private guild channels - channels, which in many cases, are completely separate from the game itself. Should we then start monitoring phone conversations and conference calls next? What about private IM conversations? Should we start eavesdropping on such players within their own homes?Again, I'm all for keeping public forums and game channels clean of such controversy. However, that's a far cry from attempting to impose my own morals upon another player in the privacy of their own chat channels - channels they often pay for themselves. If the original player isn't happy with such guilds, that's fine. He or she can move on to try to find a guild which doesn't allow for such speech. However, to try to degrade such leaders as if they aren't worthy of the title based purely upon your own personal ethics is simply inaccurate. You can certainly have any opinion you want of such individuals, but factually speaking, personal conduct and the ability to lead guilds successfully are separate issues entirely.

Levatino

07-18-2007, 03:44 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snip Again, I'm all for keeping public forums and game channels clean of such controversy. However, that's a far cry from attempting to impose my own morals upon another player in the privacy of their own chat channels - channels they often pay for themselves. /snip </blockquote>I think that can conclude this debate, cause yes it's much more difficult to controle people on there own channels but yes on public fora and channels this drivel should not be allowed.

KBern

07-18-2007, 09:45 AM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snip Again, I'm all for keeping public forums and game channels clean of such controversy. However, that's a far cry from attempting to impose my own morals upon another player in the privacy of their own chat channels - channels they often pay for themselves. /snip </blockquote>I think that can conclude this debate, cause yes it's much more difficult to controle people on there own channels but yes on public fora and channels this drivel should not be allowed. </blockquote>Well then there should have been no debate at all because this entire topic was never about public channels. It was about a private Vent channel and a Guild channel.