What do wardens bring to the MT group??

[Alao]

<p>My guild is discussing this atm & other than I heal for tons I am not entirly sure.</p><p> I mean our buffs arn't uber.. unless I'm looking at it wrong.  So my strength's are in powr consumption of my heals (all mastered) and I've enhanced Cures.</p><p>I'd just like opinions and reasoning as to why wardens should go in the MT group (I'm our guilds only Warden aswell)</p>

[Veedublya]

<p>This seems to be an up in the air subject, some guilds swear by having a warden in the MT, some guilds find it pointless to have a warden in there. Kinda 50/50 to be honest...</p><p>What we do bring... Well not too much to be honest... AotH is good to place on another healer for an extra 1k or so power depending on their wisdom, Sandstorm can give your tank 2-4% avoidence, HA is nice for a little power pump for the tank if needed.</p><p>Nothing too special imo, Im the co-raid leader for my guild and the only warden, I rarely go into the MT group.</p>

[Isard]

<p>You have asked a question that has been asked many times and never answered fully or satisfactorly.</p><p>Buff wise we don't bring a lot to the table.  Our offensive skill buff IS a nice addition for the MT especially when you are taking on lvl 70+ mobs.</p><p>Besides that our raw healing ability / power management is what I see us mostly bringing to a raid.  Many times I save someones butt because I still have power when the Templars are out or else I can fire off a heal fast enough to keep a person on their feet.</p><p>Could we be put in another group and heal just as well?  Probably.  Though then we lose our group heal abilities which also can be a life saver.  </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<p>With all the above said - I'd say it depends on who the Warden is.    </p><p>From the perspective of raiding with a Templar and Defiler, Warden heals are like the glue that keeps the MT standing.  We can heal when Templar heals are on cooldown, and wards haven't refreshed yet.    When I raid with a Templar and I see the MT's health go down, I'm looking at greyed out bars with nothing available due to timers.  Warden ALWAYS has a heal available.  </p><p>A good Warden knows this, and is planning heals around it, as well as planning to heal around the other druids in the raid.   Many don't consider the non-stacking issue of chloroplast, for example - SOMEONE's got to think of it!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Furies have similar heals, but not quite as versatile, IMO.  They bring other utility to the group, though, and it would depend on what your MT wants in the way of buffs to determine which to put there.   Best thing to do is try out both druid classes and see which you like better.   With all said, it often boils down to the person playing it for raiding - your professionalism, being ontime, ready to go, ready to stay the whole thing and your attitude.</p><p>And. BAH.  Now I've messed up my pretty post count <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  /sigh.  Oh well..it was for a good reason! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Veedublya]

Arielle Nightshade wrote: <blockquote><p>And. BAH.  Now I've messed up my pretty post count <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  /sigh.  Oh well..it was for a good reason! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Hehe, was just gonna say there goes your nice even round 3600 post sount <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Pretty much what it comes down to is we dont have a solid/wanted home in a raid setup, since we dont have any nice buffs that are needed in any gorups we can be put anywhere and do our job (since all we can do is heal <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). </p><p>Until SOE gives us something buff wise to work with we are gonna be bums and just move from group to group...</p>

[Fromingo]

<p>My raid tank likes the offensive skill buff.  Course I like it too and I am gimped without it but hey my job is to make sure he gets what he needs for us to succeed.    If only we could convince SOE to make it a group buff.   </p>

[Tundrra]

Our Raids are never without a Warden in the MT grp, we are the ones that keep the cure truamas and poisions etc off the main tank and keeping our Group heals going to keep those supporting grp members alive, If they go down the MT is losing alot of buffs.   We normally always have a Defiler and Templar also in the MT grp.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My raid tank likes the offensive skill buff.  Course I like it too and I am gimped without it but hey my job is to make sure he gets what he needs for us to succeed.    If only we could convince SOE to make it a group buff.   </p></blockquote>   Agreed.  The tank I raided with wanted Warden in the MT group cause he valued The Tree!   I respect a tank that knows the value of The Tree!

[Sorano]

<p>The tree is a great AFK tool. I just toss that then HA and wander off <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>The majority of raidzones, mobs will not break through a shaman's wards. All the other healers pretty much have to dps to earn their keep. It's only on a few select named that a warden will shine, Woushi off the top of my head to name one. I doubt many guilds would be doing Woushi without 3 healers in the MT group.</p>

[netman]

<p>Reasonably, give me  a real good argument for integrating a MT group composed of a guardian, a defiler, a templar, a dirge, a coercer (mana regen + hate) and a swash/assassin (hate) ? </p>

[Sorano]

<p>Lots of AE damage is a good reason. Power regen is hardly ever an issue so you rarely need 2 regen either. Plus coercer/dirge hate does not stack so why put both in the MT group?  You can easily maximise hate with a dirge/swashy combo, or if you want a coercer/swashy combo, depending on what you need. Either works fine.</p>

[Alao]

<p>Thanks for the replies <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As to my perspective.. well I'm my guilds only warden and we also only have one fury (he goes in the mage group), so even recently I've out parsed a Defiler in FTH.</p><p>I also have improved cures but I am also the designated MT curer aswell.  I earn my keep for sure. </p><p>The reason I made this thread is because there was a thread on my guild forums about the perfect raid setup and some included a warden and some didn't.  I agree mind you that I wish our buffs did a better job and that PI was group wide instead of just a single target.</p><p>I just wish there was some difining thing that made us stand out as a definative class that must always be in a certain group.</p><p>Anyways I'm starting to ramble. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

My wife's main is a Warden, and from a tanking perspective I can say without a doubt that if I need to be in Defensive, I NEED the Warden's skill buff. Even a dirge's skill buff doesn't compare. Also, due to the cast speed of heals, she seems to always be ready for Curing.. faster than if a Cleric or Shaman was in the middle of casting a heal. Lastly, I don't know anyone that can lay down as much group healing as a druid (Warden especially), and on AE encounters, keeping the MT group up from incidental damage is key. Many encounters can't afford having even a single person in the MT group drop, or it falls like a stack of cards. Those would be the primary reasons (other than highly specific things like resists) for a Warden being in the MT group. I'd say if you had a Coercer for your Regen and Hate Bonus, a Warden would be a nice complement since the MT is missing the group +skill buff of a bard. Group makeup of Coercer/Warden vs Dirge/Coercer or whatnot.

[KannaWhoopass]

<p>A good question is who would you rather have?</p><p>If you have a cleric a shamen a tank a dirge and a corecer </p><p>who is the 6th class ?</p><p>Who will offer more?</p><p>if you have 3 healr in MT group a warden wisdom buff is loved .. </p><p>the group plus ingle target wisdom buff can give a healer over 1000 power.. they love it.</p><p>Healing speed is key .. wardens are filler healing .. we fill the healing gap .. the tank is always getting hitpoints back .. </p><p>Spores on the tank , the tree , and regular hot components on all of our heals ... </p><p>Our crush slash pierce buff is nice for the tank .. </p><p>In encounters where the main tank group must stay with the tank in AOE range and just soak up the damage. </p><p>Wardens can replenish group health better than any other.. </p><p>Most raids dont appreciate the MT warden .. untill they dont have one .. </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

Renarde@Storms wrote: <blockquote><p>Reasonably, give me  a real good argument for integrating a MT group composed of a guardian, a defiler, a templar, a dirge, a coercer (mana regen + hate) and a swash/assassin (hate) ? </p></blockquote><p>You need smaller/faster casting heals a druid can provide, and a Warden heals for more.    Defiler and Templar ward and heal for big amounts but they are slow.  Only one mistake in the timing, and your MT dies - and the healers had plenty of power.  Tell me no one ever makes a mistake on your raid, or in the MT group?  ....yeah, thought so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />       All the mana regen in the world isn't going to help if the issue is timers, not power.   Wardens typically have an excellent power pool with efficient healing if they can use all of them because they are grouped.</p><p>Not all guilds are either raiding the higher end T7 content (like Wuoshi), nor is their whole raid force sufficiently geared to be able to support this group makeup, IMO.   I'd make the group Guardian (or even a good Berserker), Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Coercer.   </p><p>A Druid (either Fury or Warden) is a better healer when they can use their group heals and regens in stack with their direct ones - you cut their MT healing ability in half (if not more) by putting them in any other group besides the MT group - with the purpose of healing the MT.   It's a frustrating experience for the druid, and doesn't give you the optimum healing when you need it. </p><p>Sure, many guilds or raid forces are far enough along that they are bored silly with all the content, and the fights are no longer a challenge - but not everyone is in this boat.   Some are looking forward to figuring out the strats.</p><p>I only offer this comment so that all perspectives can be seen.  If you are in a raiding guild that has everyone all geared up, for the easier content - I can see this group as being able to do most stuff.   Not everyone - and the OP is one of them if his guild is looking at how to put together their groups - fits in that category.</p><p>My 2  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Gwen]

Renarde@Storms wrote: <blockquote><p>Reasonably, give me  a real good argument for integrating a MT group composed of a guardian, a defiler, a templar, a dirge, a coercer (mana regen + hate) and a swash/assassin (hate) ? </p></blockquote>Because Avatars hit freaking hard ? Warden is one of the classes that make the game easier, its why Warden is an unvaluable class when a new expansion come out, backslash being that, months after expansion release, when you own contents ... Warden become useless in MT group (But this fact is true for the whole perspective, going from defensive to offensive as you gear up). But to really answer your question, what wardens bring to a MT group ? Tunare's Watch <3

[Anathriel]

One thing my MT always likes a warden in his group for is the Anti-Knockback ability that the Warden provides - dont personally know if Fury can do it too, but it always useful to keep MT in position without him being punted oor for heals

[Veedublya]

Anathriel@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>One thing my MT always likes a warden in his group for is the Anti-Knockback ability that the Warden provides - dont personally know if Fury can do it too, but it always useful to keep MT in position without him being punted oor for heals</blockquote> Too bad they are taking the KB outta nature's walk =(

[Memdawen]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anathriel@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>One thing my MT always likes a warden in his group for is the Anti-Knockback ability that the Warden provides - dont personally know if Fury can do it too, but it always useful to keep MT in position without him being punted oor for heals</blockquote> Too bad they are taking the KB outta nature's walk =(</blockquote><p> <strike>Where did you hear that?</strike> nvm I found it. I shoulda looked before I asked was being lazy I guess <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[mcavellero]

<p>Simple:</p><p>+Sandstorm/Dustorm=+Defense which translates to greater avoidance for the tank(which makes a big difference).  THey can pop this spell on and continue to heal.  And with a recast of 30sec and duration of 2minutes(what I recall from the top of my head)...it's a must on every battle...  Furys have Urchin however it stuns therefore disabling the Fury...Sandstorm only roots the warden.</p><p>+WIS-Wis=Resist bonuses to all stats.  Their grp wis and single target wis buff can be applied on the tank.</p><p> +Crazy Spike Healing ability-Clerics and Shamans cannot bring a tank up from 1 to 12k as fast as a druid can.  Yes single target HoTs can be applied outside of the grp but you lose their grp heals, grp regens, etc...  With a druid in grp, you MT Grp will be able to handle spike damage much better not only on the tank but the entire group.  </p><p> +Spores-Lotto heal that goes on tank</p><p> +Tunare's watch group AE death preventation</p><p> +Offensive Skills buff-this goes on the tank, helps him hold aggro.</p><p>I am sure I am missing one or two things, all this came off the top of my head.</p>

[netman]

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>+Sandstorm/Dustorm=+Defense which translates to greater avoidance for the tank(which makes a big difference).  THey can pop this spell on and continue to heal.  And with a recast of 30sec and duration of 2minutes(what I recall from the top of my head)...it's a must on every battle...  Furys have Urchin however it stuns therefore disabling the Fury...Sandstorm only roots the warden.</p></blockquote><p> For my tank, Sandstorm (adept III) est useless, only 1% gain in avoidance for him, Spore is really great though.</p>

[mcavellero]

wow 1%?  Our MT's avoidance is increased by 7% (Guardian) and our Pally by 9%(Sometimes tanks).   Just like sta, int, mit etc, defense also has dimenshing returns.  However even with a 1% avoidance increase it's still better than urchin(unless there's aguaranteed damage shield active).  Rooted Healer+1% > Stunned Healer+Mit Increase.  Remember just like def...mit also suffers from dimenshing returns and you have as stunned healer that cannot cast anything.

[Veedublya]

<p>Sandstorm for my tanks gives about 3% avoid, i only cast it when fighting multiple mobs cuz then its a little more useful, but to me i wouldnt consider sandstorm a MT needed spell.</p><p>Both spells are very situational, honestly i would find urchin more useful when its AA spec'd to heal as well. Think when AA spec'd urchin can heal for somewhere around 200 a tick (every 2 secs), which can stack with a druids chloroplast/bloodflow.</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

Sandstorm is really nice for your Wet Paper bag wearing Casters...if you find yourself in that group, but in the MT group, it takes up WAYYYY too much power to offset the defense it really does, IMO

[Isard]

<p>/agree</p><p>It uses too much power for a very limited benefit when your MT is wearing all fabled gear and maxed on defensive skills already.  Casters group could benefit if they are getting aggro.  Which they shouldn't be because said fabled geared tank is a master of taunting and keeping aggro.</p><p>Oh wait... they just nerfed aggro control... maybe it will have a use now.</p><p>Hey... was that the plan all along?  Rather than fix / make us better they would nerf everyone else so our limited abilities are in demand?</p><p>I hope everyone doesn't blame us for the aggro changes!</p>