Can someone tell me..

[Bekkr]

What possible reason there could be for implementing a system such that: You can counter EVERY SINGLE tradeskill event or complication that comes up, and yet still have your durability fall below the top (pristine) level even before you've gotten progress to the first bar? I mean, does that really make any sense to anyone? This has frustrated me since I started playing EQ2, and it continues to do so more and more. /rantoff Sorry about that, just had to get that off my chest.  I feel much better now.  (I'd feel even better still if success with the current tradeskill system wasn't so bloody arbitrary though)

[Armawk]

<p>You need to use your skills all the time, not just as counters!</p><p>There are many strategies for efficient use, the most "safe" ones focus on using the durability skills (mostly the 2 that dont use up power) on every cycle, thereby keeping durability up but at the cost of slower crafting. Doing this right means 99% success at pristine.</p>

[Bekkr]

Yes, I do know to use skills pro-actively.   And I can get pristine *most* of the time.  I just don't understand the mechanic whereby I do everything "right", and come up well short, due to what seems to me a design flaw. Anyway, thanks for the response... was more just a rant on my part, as I know it's not going to change.  I let my frustration get the better of me, I guess. <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Cheers.

[Terron]

You are almost certainly not doing everything right. If you were then what you describe in your first post would be extremely rare. You would also not say that success was in anyway arbitary since you would know that the only reason for failure was inattention or going LD (or taking risks to save time I suppose). I am however assuming that you are higher that level 9, which since it takes less that 20 minutes crafting to get to level 10 seems likely.

[aardda]

<p>That phenomenon is known as The Curse of the Dreaded RNG</p><p>My weaponsmith suffers from a similar affliction, i can constantly hit my best 3 durability buffs every time and still see my durability slip down into level3 quality. The only known cure has something to do with a magic carpet, and the king of the potato people... or something.</p>

[Rijacki]

Bad RNG streaks are countered only by stopping your crafting and going away to lob fireballs at elephants for a while.. or at least that's Rijacki's cure. The RNG can be streaky and it -can- get into a bad streak even for the best crafter.  However, not all of the crafting arts are the same.  Not only are they different for each craft, the higher level ones aren't exactly improvements on the lower level ones so, if you're high level, you have to pick and choose your arts.  For lower level crafters working their way up, there are definately some level ranges that are harder for some crafts because the arts at that point suck for that craft up to that level range. Blowing up elephants is rather curative. Though my coercer seems to like making them into pets instead.

[Deson]

I'm too stubborn to stop a combine once I start no matter how evil the RNG is. Even when I had epic 5+ minute battles with the alchemy table back in the days of subs on my woodworker, I never, ever had a less than pristine that wasn't my fault post- 10 on any crafter. Still, since this isn't the first post claiming a funky crafting behaviour/RNG cycle based on account, I think those who suffer it should have a thread to detail out everything that's happening.While I can't relate, maybe a single thread with all the sufferers posting their symptoms can shed some light on it.

[Amphibia]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You need to use your skills all the time, not just as counters!</p><p>There are many strategies for efficient use, the most "safe" ones focus on using the durability skills (mostly the 2 that dont use up power) on every cycle, thereby keeping durability up but at the cost of slower crafting. Doing this right means 99% success at pristine.</p></blockquote> That works, allthough it makes me ZzzzZZzzz....... Here's one that's a tad faster and also gives 99% pristine, but requires a little bit more attention: First you use mainly your progress buffs. Keep doing that the first 3 bars, just make sure you don't lose the 4th bar. If you do, use durability buffs to get it back up again. If you're having a bad dice, you can also combine progress with durability a while, or stick to durability only until it's under control again. When at the 4th bar, you need to be a little more careful, use durability buffs if necessary to make sure you end up with pristine. In addition to this, you need to counter the events of course. But that goes without saying, I guess. If this didn't make sense, sorry I'm kinda tired lol

[Karlen]

>>>First you use mainly your progress buffs. Keep doing that the first 3 bars, just make sure you don't lose the 4th bar. If you do, use durability buffs to get it back up again.<<< An alternative is to start with all three durability buffs.  Run through them all two or three times to ensure that the durability is well into the 5th bar (which you can't see but is there nonetheless).  Then use your progress buffs to power through the item quickly.

[Armawk]

<p>Its also important to note that as long as you manage the power-buff carefully, then even should you drop out of te last bar you can relatively easily grind your way back into it.. </p><p>I think 99% pristine is about right. I also think that even in evil RNG mode its over 90%. in non-evil RNG mode its 100%. If it isnt then you need to rethink strats.</p>

[Calthine]

I'd be slacking if I didn't post... <b><a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=909" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Understanding the Arts</a></b> - <i>How to Successfully Apply the Tradeskill Arts </i><b><a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=928" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Power to the Pristine - It's all about the buttons</a></b> <b><a href="http://eq2flames.com/showthread.php?t=3671" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Pristine - how to get it (almost) every time</a> </b>It's well worth your time to grab some cheap, non-rare recipe and mess around with your arts to see if you could be more efficient.  Especially if you've gotten new arts, since the arts are not necessarily upgrades to each other. The RNG can be a PITA, for sure, but 99.99% of the time you can recover from it.  That's part of the challenge.  Kinda a mini-game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jesdyr]

Calthine wrote: <blockquote> The RNG can be a PITA, for sure, but 99.99% of the time you can recover from it.  That's part of the challenge.  Kinda a mini-game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> 99.9999%  ... aside form link dead or something <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Use tinker items that increase success chances. Always watch the floating numbers.. Preload the durabilty bar for 2-3 rounds (add more for any failure - get at least +120 to durability).. then use progress unless you get failures or the pristine bar drops below 100%.  I can speedcraft like this leaving 3min+ on a rushorder. and if you start to get a failure streak, lay off the arts that increase your chance to fail (I also move my character and change the order of the buffs to prevent any possible bad source of entropy since I dont know what the RNG in this game uses .. I have a feeling /loc is in there).

[Kaldrin]

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>An alternative is to start with all three durability buffs.  Run through them all two or three times to ensure that the durability is well into the 5th bar (which you can't see but is there nonetheless).  Then use your progress buffs to power through the item quickly. </blockquote> I get nothing but minus scores on my durability, even no matter what buff I hit. Sometimes even minus progress and durability if I hit the buffs at the same time. I posted here before that at 18th level I can just go afk and I still wind up with quality level 3s most of the time. Meanwhile I can't seem to get pristines more than 3 times out of 10... What's RNG?

[Bloodfa]

Anything under pristine is unacceptable.  But it really is fairly easy to attain, assuming you're paying attention.  It just takes longer.  For me, I spam the durability buffs until I reach the first bar of completion, giving me a buffer in case I screw up horribly.  The last time I wiped a pristine, I was 3-sheets to the wind and semi-conscious.  It ain't rocket science.  That would be tinkering.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Karlen]

>>>I get nothing but minus scores on my durability, even no matter what buff I hit.<<< If you are using 3 durability buffs every tick and your durability keeps going down, you have a problem.

[Off]

The trick is learning how and when to use your durability/progress counters, even when there is nothing to counter at all. 

[StormCinder]

<cite>KaldrinXanthin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>An alternative is to start with all three durability buffs.  Run through them all two or three times to ensure that the durability is well into the 5th bar (which you can't see but is there nonetheless).  Then use your progress buffs to power through the item quickly. </blockquote> I get nothing but minus scores on my durability, even no matter what buff I hit. Sometimes even minus progress and durability if I hit the buffs at the same time. I posted here before that at 18th level I can just go afk and I still wind up with quality level 3s most of the time. Meanwhile I can't seem to get pristines more than 3 times out of 10... <span style="color: #ff0000">What's RNG?</span> </blockquote><p> <insert regular anti-RNG posting here></p><p>Don't worry about the RNG.  It's a myth.</p><p>SC</p>

[Bekkr]

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote> If you are using 3 durability buffs every tick and your durability keeps going down, you have a problem. </blockquote>Just to be clear, you have completely summed up my every frustration with the TS system in one simple sentence. My 48 Sage seems to have no problems getting pristine in 99.99% of cases, as seems to be the norm, judging by others' responses here.  My 15 Scholar (gonna be an alchemist, I think) on the other hand, has a rough time getting pristine even half of the time.  I know how to use the buffs (sorry Terron, but while my experience with my Sage agrees with you, my more recent experience in the teen levels goes completely against what you're saying), but I seem to find that I get much better results generally if I don't use 3 buffs from the same tier in one "round", but rather, one from my highest progress tier, and 2 from durability.  For me, three (tier 4, say) durability buffs in the same round will more often than not cause something not dissimilar to a critical failure - red numbers all over the place - maybe 2 times out of 3. /shrug  I just think there's a bit more going on behind the scenes wrt what influences success chances than we're led to believe from the (practically nonexistant) "official" info on tradeskilling. Anyhow, even though pristine can be managed as much as it is, I stand by the fact that, if you can counter every event and still not get it, something is broken.  I also tend to think that if you CAN get pristine without hitting any but the most severe "events" (I've had this happen, and it's not super rare), then something - possibly the same thing - is equally broken. Just my 2c. @Karlen: So you're saying there's a buffer above 100% durability that can be filled?  That would be great, if it's true... may I ask how you come to know this? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Cheers,  B.

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Bekkr wrote:</cite><blockquote>Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote> If you are using 3 durability buffs every tick and your durability keeps going down, you have a problem. </blockquote>Just to be clear, you have completely summed up my every frustration with the TS system in one simple sentence. My 48 Sage seems to have no problems getting pristine in 99.99% of cases, as seems to be the norm, judging by others' responses here.  My 15 Scholar (gonna be an alchemist, I think) on the other hand, has a rough time getting pristine even half of the time.  I know how to use the buffs (sorry Terron, but while my experience with my Sage agrees with you, my more recent experience in the teen levels goes completely against what you're saying), but I seem to find that I get much better results generally if I don't use 3 buffs from the same tier in one "round", but rather, one from my highest progress tier, and 2 from durability.  For me, three (tier 4, say) durability buffs in the same round will more often than not cause something not dissimilar to a critical failure - red numbers all over the place - maybe 2 times out of 3. /shrug  I just think there's a bit more going on behind the scenes wrt what influences success chances than we're led to believe from the (practically nonexistant) "official" info on tradeskilling. Anyhow, even though pristine can be managed as much as it is, I stand by the fact that, if you can counter every event and still not get it, something is broken.  I also tend to think that if you CAN get pristine without hitting any but the most severe "events" (I've had this happen, and it's not super rare), then something - possibly the same thing - is equally broken. Just my 2c. @Karlen: So you're saying there's a buffer above 100% durability that can be filled?  That would be great, if it's true... may I ask how you come to know this? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Cheers,  B. </blockquote>T1 and T2 are a bit of an aberration due to the buffs being so low-powered. Things stabilize T3 and up. You can most definitely build more durability than the UI shows. If you build your durability up at first and you watch the numbers each round  you'll be able to see it happen. You can build the durability at first, then take hits to durability later but your fourth bar stays topped off.

[Terron]

<cite>KaldrinXanthin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sometimes even minus progress and durability if I hit the buffs at the same time. </blockquote>Hitting all the buffs at once is not a good idea. Like CAs/Spells after each once there is a delay (0.5s?) before you can use the next, and only once can be queued. So press three together and the middle one does not get done.

[Terron]

<cite>Bekkr wrote:</cite><blockquote> My 15 Scholar (gonna be an alchemist, I think) on the other hand, has a rough time getting pristine even half of the time.  I know how to use the buffs (sorry Terron, but while my experience with my Sage agrees with you, my more recent experience in the teen levels goes completely against what you're saying), [snip] Anyhow, even though pristine can be managed as much as it is, I stand by the fact that, if you can counter every event and still not get it, something is broken.  I also tend to think that if you CAN get pristine without hitting any but the most severe "events" (I've had this happen, and it's not super rare), then something - possibly the same thing - is equally broken. [snip] </blockquote>T2 is a little harder, but my experience the last time I did it was that getting prisitne over 90% of the time was possible when using a skill that is maxed for your level. You can get pristine without bothering about countering events. The penalties for failure to counter are barely noticable interms of progresss/durability. Using your arts to maintain durability is what seems to be most important. I do not think that countering every even should be enough to guarantee getting pristine, but I do think that failing to counter should have a more severe affect on durability.

[Karlen]

>>>So press three together and the middle one does not get done.<<< You have time to do three buffs per cycle, but you have to time it right.  I usually use 2 buffs per cycle as I don't use the buffs that require power unless I need to. >>>You can get pristine without bothering about countering events. <<< Don't think of events as a bad thing.   Consider them an opportunity for guaranteed success -- you will never fail the round when you counter an event. When I get an event, I always use three buffs to maximize the benefit of the guaranteed success. The rest of the time, I usually use two buffs.

[Dagorgil]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bekkr wrote:</cite><blockquote>My 15 Scholar (gonna be an alchemist, I think) on the other hand, has a rough time getting pristine even half of the time.  I know how to use the buffs (sorry Terron, but while my experience with my Sage agrees with you, my more recent experience in the teen levels goes completely against what you're saying), [snip] Anyhow, even though pristine can be managed as much as it is, I stand by the fact that, if you can counter every event and still not get it, something is broken.  I also tend to think that if you CAN get pristine without hitting any but the most severe "events" (I've had this happen, and it's not super rare), then something - possibly the same thing - is equally broken. [snip] </blockquote>T2 is a little harder, but my experience the last time I did it was that getting prisitne over 90% of the time was possible when using a skill that is maxed for your level. You can get pristine without bothering about countering events. The penalties for failure to counter are barely noticable interms of progresss/durability. Using your arts to maintain durability is what seems to be most important. I do not think that countering every even should be enough to guarantee getting pristine, but I do think that failing to counter should have a more severe affect on durability. </blockquote><p>I'd have to agree.  T2 is probably the hardest tier to get pristines in.  The recipes have more durability and progress than the skills add.  I generally start with durability right away, until I can be sure that I'm not going to have critical failures right away, and then switch to progress to get through the pristine ASAP!  I go back to durability as soon as the 4th bar gets around 50%, and stay there until I feel safe to switch back to progress (~80%).</p><p> Another thing that helps, a lot of people run through power real quick spamming events real fast.  Take off all your armor, drink a nice high power regen drink, and I like to double up with a power totem.  You'll never have to worry about spamming whatever skill you want. </p>

[Armawk]

<p>In T2, if making recipes at my current level its almost all about Durability for me until the very end, and then only use progress much if the durability is safely in the top half of bar 4. and I essentially never touch the buff that reduces durability, thats just shooting yourself in the foot.</p><p>Still, those level 10 durability buffs seem to be up to the task, though the pristine percentage on recipes within 1 level of your own range is perhaps 90 instead of 99. Of course once you hit 20. then are making tier 2s for prodcution not levelling, its really 100% pristines.</p><p>I just cant see how you can possibly get 3 out of 10 unless there is something major you are misunderstanding/misusing. even using progress buffs only I would expect more than half pristines.</p>

[Armawk]

oh by the way.. what are your skills at? the tradeskill ones?

[Calthine]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh by the way.. what are your skills at? the tradeskill ones?</blockquote> Good question.  If your skill has fallen well below your cap your rate of failures gets really ugly.