Joing a guild to raid - serious question

[Valdaglerion]

<p>So last night, I decided to see where the raid guild mentality was these days. I put out tells and channel request about joining a raiding guild. Here are the consistent requirements (there were some oddities so I didnt include them but the 5 raid guilds that I did talk with last night all said these things)</p><ol><li>DKP (Dragon Kill Point) system in place</li><li>Must be willing to raid 2-3 times per week</li><li>Must be a guild member (you can have alts in other guilds, raiding or not)</li><li>Must have a minimum 75% of your Master spells for your current tier (in thiscase, T7 player so mostly T6-T7 spells)</li><li>Must have at least Legendary gear (if you dont have "some" fabled, well....we will have to see)</li></ol><p>My understanding of these game dynamics are:</p><ol><li>DKP - system manually updated and tracked by guild/raid leaders as a way of assigning points to raid members based on their participation in raid events. Those points can then be used by the raid members to "buy" looting rights during a raid.</li><li>Raids are scheduled and without enough "signups" raids cant happen (seems obvious)</li><li>Master spells are approximately a 13% gain over Adept III / Legendary and Fabled have typically higher resist, better damage, better stats. These items make the player more resistant to death and more contributory in damage during combat.</li></ol><p>So why questions are: (this is not a flame or rant, just trying to understand the logic so any insight is appreciated)</p><ol><li>If Raids are signed up for why must someone commit to 2-3 times per week? If they can only raid once per week but you know they are definitely going to show up for that raid why this requirement?</li><li>Guild member - why do they need to be a guild member? There are no requirements for writ grinding or leveling requirements so there must be something I am missing here.</li><li>DKP - seems logical but again, if the system is manually comprised and updated, why can it only be put in place for guild members. I really feel as though I am missing something here.</li><li>Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory).</li></ol><p>Insights to these questions would definitely be helpful as I am struggling to undersand the raiding mentality of today to determine if it is a path I want to pursue. Many thanks in advance.</p>

[Ama]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So last night, I decided to see where the raid guild mentality was these days. I put out tells and channel request about joining a raiding guild. Here are the consistent requirements (there were some oddities so I didnt include them but the 5 raid guilds that I did talk with last night all said these things)</p><ol><li>DKP (Dragon Kill Point) system in place</li><li>Must be willing to raid 2-3 times per week</li><li>Must be a guild member (you can have alts in other guilds, raiding or not)</li><li>Must have a minimum 75% of your Master spells for your current tier (in thiscase, T7 player so mostly T6-T7 spells)</li><li>Must have at least Legendary gear (if you dont have "some" fabled, well....we will have to see)</li></ol><p>My understanding of these game dynamics are:</p><ol><li>DKP - system manually updated and tracked by guild/raid leaders as a way of assigning points to raid members based on their participation in raid events. Those points can then be used by the raid members to "buy" looting rights during a raid.</li><li>Raids are scheduled and without enough "signups" raids cant happen (seems obvious)</li><li>Master spells are approximately a 13% gain over Adept III / Legendary and Fabled have typically higher resist, better damage, better stats. These items make the player more resistant to death and more contributory in damage during combat.</li></ol><p>So why questions are: (this is not a flame or rant, just trying to understand the logic so any insight is appreciated)</p><ol><li>If Raids are signed up for why must someone commit to 2-3 times per week? If they can only raid once per week but you know they are definitely going to show up for that raid why this requirement?</li><li>Guild member - why do they need to be a guild member? There are no requirements for writ grinding or leveling requirements so there must be something I am missing here.</li><li>DKP - seems logical but again, if the system is manually comprised and updated, why can it only be put in place for guild members. I really feel as though I am missing something here.</li><li>Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory).</li></ol><p>Insights to these questions would definitely be helpful as I am struggling to undersand the raiding mentality of today to determine if it is a path I want to pursue. Many thanks in advance.</p></blockquote><p>One thing to remember is there are casual, semi and heavy raiding guilds.  Casual raid guilds have alliances and loot is generally NBG with no requirements as far as spells/equipment go.  Semi-raid guilds will have a 2-3 week attendance with mandatory attendance on some raids.  </p><p>Never went in with those guilds, but they are promising and I believe stuff is NBG with them as long as it's an upgrade.  They may also "dictate" a class for an item even though the item maybe useable by anyone.  This helps keep items extreme useful for classes they most benefit such as power regeneration items for mages or healers. </p><p>Heavy raiding guilds are the ones that I have heard raid atleast 4-5 times a week.  Haven't heard too much about the DKP system except for one raid I was on.  DKP usually rewards those that attend raids the most and helps keep them interested.  As for gear i'm not surprised Masters and Adept IIIs are a requirement since they want the best they can possibly get.  However I assume they have a group 4 "Newb Group" which helps out and they upgrade over time.  </p><p>Some guilds even make some coin so they can buy their guild members masters.  Sold Carrion Bulwark one time and I believe it was a guild leader that bought it off me.  Reason he bought it was to upgrade their Defiler since she didn't have that master.  This really helps keep interest in the guild since you have friends/guild mates that help to outfit you.    </p>

[Freliant]

<p>Good post.</p><p>1) Many raiding guilds don't pad their numbers... which means, once they get a person of a certain class or archtype, that is it. They raid several times a week, and if you are only going to be in one of them, then unfortunately, your spot can be better filled with a person that can attend the most raids and be more of a benefit to the entire group. It is not a reflection on yourself as a person, but if you want to be part of a more hardcore raiding guild, you need to devote the time for it. If not, you will be most at home at a casual raiding guild, that heavily pads its numbers and doesn't require any specific dates a week to raid.</p><p> 2) There are a number of advantages in having a raid member be part of the guild. First of, it makes it feel like a family. Second, they can keep better track of the DKP with some automated systems that take current EQ2Players information, and they can put your DKP in your description, which makes it easier for you to see how much DKP youhave and easier for them to manually manage it if that is how they want to do it. Lastly, you are part of their group, and the best way to show this, is by being in the same guild. If you are part of another guild, then it tends to show that your priorities are not with the raiding guild, but with your other guild.. and that is not exactly what they want everyone to think.</p><p>3) There are much easier ways to handle DKP when the person is in the guild.</p><p>4) Actually, there is alot of legendary gear which is comparable to raid gear in terms of quality. That means that if you haven't gotten these, you are most likely not putting in enough time to the game, and/or effort for getting these items. Like a wise man said, "he who faithfull in the small will be faihtfull in the big".</p>

[thebunny]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>If Raids are signed up for why must someone commit to 2-3 times per week? If they can only raid once per week but you know they are definitely going to show up for that raid why this requirement?</blockquote><p>Because they want to know that you will show up for the majority of raids, not just one a week.  A lot of raiding guilds have a small raiding roster, so they won't necessarily have someone to fill an open spot if you can't come.  This becomes problematic if you can only show up for one raid a week.</p><p>Why have a small raiding roster you say?  If you raid regularly with the same people, you will be more coordinated as a group.  If you have a different set of people every time you raid, your raid force will not be as effective, as you won't "know" the people you're raiding with.</p><blockquote>Guild member - why do they need to be a guild member? There are no requirements for writ grinding or leveling requirements so there must be something I am missing here.</blockquote><p>Because they want you to be committed to the guild.  Raiding in a raid guild is not just about you, it is also about doing what is best for the raid as a whole so that the entire raid force can get better.  For example, I have seen several raid guilds that have requirements that if you loot a master (say in a PUG or whatever), and someone in the guild needs it, you have to give up that master to that person.  Of course with those responsibilities come perks as well, such as the guild helping to outfit you with masters, paying for repair costs, splitting the profit from selling unwanted loot, etc.</p><p>If you are not a member of the guild, then they cannot be sure you are committing yourself to the betterment of the entire raid instead of just looking out for yourself.</p><blockquote>DKP - seems logical but again, if the system is manually comprised and updated, why can it only be put in place for guild members. I really feel as though I am missing something here.</blockquote><p>It doesn't have to be only put in place for guild members, but most raiding guilds prefer it.  As I said above, raiding guilds are not just "out for themselves", they are there to improve the raid force as a whole.  If they give up a piece of loot to someone not in the guild, they're not helping the guild's raid force.</p><blockquote>Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory).</blockquote><p>I think it depends a LOT on the raid guild.  Your hardcore raid guilds are going to have requirements that you be mostly mastered and mostly fabled, but they also are looking for seasoned raiders to fill their ranks rather than people who don't have a lot of experience.  There are some more casual raid guilds, however, that simply require a good portion of masters (easily purchaseable) and at least EoF legendary set gear (easily obtainable by a decent PUG).</p><p>If you can't commit to a guild's requirements for raiding, you might want to look into one of the raiding alliances on your server.  These usually have very few requirements (adept III or better, legendary or better gear is about the most strict I've seen), no attendence requirements, and loot is usually done by either a /ran 100 NBG system or an open DKP system.  Obviously a raiding alliance will not be able to clear as much stuff as your hardcore or semi-hardcore raiding guilds will be able to, but they still can be decent (the raiding alliance I'm in can clear everything in MMIS up to Mayong, and I'm sure he'll go down soon).</p>

[Korpo]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>If Raids are signed up for why must someone commit to 2-3 times per week? If they can only raid once per week but you know they are definitely going to show up for that raid why this requirement? <b>Consider the converse, that people show up once a week. The guild has to balloon in size to be able to put together a capable raid force every night: the guild needs five mystics and five guards and five templars, etc. to be able to guarantee that they'll have at least one guard and one mystic and one templar there when they go to kill Bill the Gnoll. On the days when all five mystics choose to play, four of the mystics are sitting on the bench twiddling their thumbs because there's no room for them. Continuing with this line of thinking, a given amount of loot drops every night, let's say we're back in KoS days and we get 5 pieces of relic per night on average. Each person wants a full suit, so we're going to need 7 pieces x 24 raiders / 5 pieces per night = about 34 raids to get everyone outfitted, assuming we get the right drops. If the guild has to carry 5x the number of people in order to guarantee a capable raid force on any given night, then it's going to take 5x as long to outfit everyone. Further, the loot is diluted a lot more. Would you rather have a tank with 5 pieces of relic and 2 legendary, or 5 tanks with one piece of relic and 6 pieces of legendary?</b> Guild member - why do they need to be a guild member? There are no requirements for writ grinding or leveling requirements so there must be something I am missing here. <b>Because joining the guild is a commitment to the guild, it shows that you are willing to <i>do</i> something to <i>get</i> something.</b> DKP - seems logical but again, if the system is manually comprised and updated, why can it only be put in place for guild members. I really feel as though I am missing something here. <b>I've been in guilds that maintained DKP for non-guildies, and it worked just fine. If a guild won't do that, it's by choice, not because of any technical means. It's their choice though, they are the ones killing the dragons, they get to pick who gets the loot, and under what system.</b> Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory). <b> Most casual raid guilds won't have any huge requirements, other than you have mastercrafted or so, which I think you get in the mail when you log in these days. These casual raid guilds take on casual content, instances and T6 mobs and the like, because that's what they're capable of. Hardcore guilds have more stringent requirements because they take the gear concentration idea to an extreme. Most of the guilds that monopolize the contesteds, compete for world firsts, etc. have like 26 members. Each of those members has nearly all their masters, a few different pieces of fabled to put in each slot, and enough time to dedicate to keeping things that way. Typically people move from a casual to a hardcore guild when they feel like they know enough about raiding to not look dumb in front of their new peers, when they have enough masters and gear that they won't be looked as a loot [Removed for Content], and when they can dedicate several hours a day to the guild. </b> <p>Insights to these questions would definitely be helpful as I am struggling to undersand the raiding mentality of today to determine if it is a path I want to pursue. Many thanks in advance.</p></blockquote>

[KBern]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So why questions are: (this is not a flame or rant, just trying to understand the logic so any insight is appreciated)</p><ol><li>If Raids are signed up for why must someone commit to 2-3 times per week? If they can only raid once per week but you know they are definitely going to show up for that raid why this requirement?</li></ol><p><u><i>Because as you say, the guild cannot accomplish goals with sporadic attendance.  Guilds want people who are regular raiders and will be there when needed.  You cannot rely on someone who may or may not show up but once per week.  No raid guild is going to be successful in gearing up and accomplishing goals that way.</i></u></p><ol><li>Guild member - why do they need to be a guild member? There are no requirements for writ grinding or leveling requirements so there must be something I am missing here.</li></ol><p><u><i>It is called loyalty.  Guilds dont want to take the time gearing up someone who is not invested in the guild.  The majority of guilds do not want mercenary players.  If you are not guilded, and they are relying on you to raid, what is to stop you from raiding wiht a different guild that night, and then see above about regular attendance and why it is needed. (I dont mean you as in YOU, just general raider_01)</i></u></p><ol><li>DKP - seems logical but again, if the system is manually comprised and updated, why can it only be put in place for guild members. I really feel as though I am missing something here.</li></ol><p><u><i>See above.  Guilds main goal is to strenghten the guild and the raiders who show up regularly to help that guild accomplish what they set up to do.  Outfitting Joe Schmoe that is unguilded is very counterproductive.</i></u></p><ol><li>Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory).</li></ol><p><i><u>There are many types of entry level gear.  Gear is needed for resists for all raiders from AOE's, mitigation if you tank, weapon damage if you are a melee, etc.  Some classes can get by with not so great gear for a while, but again, see the logic above.</u></i></p><p>Insights to these questions would definitely be helpful as I am struggling to undersand the raiding mentality of today to determine if it is a path I want to pursue. Many thanks in advance.</p></blockquote><p>So in conclusion, you can see how it is all related. </p><p>Guilds want regular members who raid, in order to earn the DKP, in order to get gear, so that guild can rely upon, and benefit from stable and regular guild raiding members who show their dedication to the guilds goals and work with the guild to gear themselves to make themselves a better raider in order to make the guild more successful in the raids they choose. </p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>All thoughts have been very helpful, thanks. I guess I had one main assumption from my conversations and that being : Raids are scheduled and <u>signed</u> up for.</p><p>From the comments, it does not appear as though that is the case. It sounds more like raids are scheduled from a prespective of time and location but not from a perspective as to who is making up the raid, so a first come first serve might be more apt to apply. Under the more loosely organized raid which appears to be the norm, I can understand wanting more attendance and being unsure who is going to show up so it makes more sense so that a raid is filled consistently.</p><p>Again, thanks for your thoughts, it has given me a few new things to consider and potential options to explore.</p>

[KBern]

<p>Yeah our guild has set raid nights (3x per week).  We have set targets on those nights.</p><p>The people who raid (about 30 of us) try to show up on time and at the right place.</p><p>Cuts are made by the leadership based on class needed, and then by attendance.  Those who are more stable get the benefit of not being cut as quickly as those who are more sporadic in attendance.</p><p>That is why you see some guilds only recruiting certain classes at times.  Those are the classes they either have no one to raid as, or have a sporadic raider and they need to make sure they have the class if needed during the raid.</p><p>Good luck.</p>

[Korpo]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All thoughts have been very helpful, thanks. I guess I had one main assumption from my conversations and that being : Raids are scheduled and <u>signed</u> up for.</p><p>From the comments, it does not appear as though that is the case. It sounds more like raids are scheduled from a prespective of time and location but not from a perspective as to who is making up the raid, so a first come first serve might be more apt to apply. Under the more loosely organized raid which appears to be the norm, I can understand wanting more attendance and being unsure who is going to show up so it makes more sense so that a raid is filled consistently.</p><p>Again, thanks for your thoughts, it has given me a few new things to consider and potential options to explore.</p></blockquote>A raid will generally have the same general build, no matter what you are going to hit. You can't make a raid with 24 templars, even if 24 templars are the first 24 to sign up for the raid. You <b>can't</b> just rely on people signing up because you're almost guaranteed to not get the right setup, which just wastes everyone's time.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All thoughts have been very helpful, thanks. I guess I had one main assumption from my conversations and that being : Raids are scheduled and <u>signed</u> up for.</p></blockquote><p> I know of no raiding guilds which maintain a sign up for raids.  I know a few which have sign-ups if you can't make a raid, and some of the more serious raid guilds <i>require</i> notification to officers to miss raids.  </p><p>It's like joining a sports league after work.  Oh sure, maybe it's just a "for fun" softball or volleyball league, but if you sign up, then your team mates are now counting on you to make practices and games.  If you can't, it's expected that you'll let the team know so they aren't waiting on you.  </p><p>It's not really much different here.  Just because it's online doesn't mean the team concept is taken any less seriously.  It's a matter of respect to the other 23 raiders that set aside that time.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>All thoughts have been very helpful, thanks. I guess I had one main assumption from my conversations and that being : Raids are scheduled and <u>signed</u> up for.</p></blockquote><p> I know of no raiding guilds which maintain a sign up for raids.  I know a few which have sign-ups if you can't make a raid, and some of the more serious raid guilds <i>require</i> notification to officers to miss raids.  </p><p>It's like joining a sports league after work.  Oh sure, maybe it's just a "for fun" softball or volleyball league, but if you sign up, then your team mates are now counting on you to make practices and games.  If you can't, it's expected that you'll let the team know so they aren't waiting on you.  </p><p>It's not really much different here.  Just because it's online doesn't mean the team concept is taken any less seriously.  It's a matter of respect to the other 23 raiders that set aside that time.</p></blockquote><p>I was under the impression sign ups did exist for scheduled raids - with more a 4 slots open for healer class, etc...apparently not though. At the very least, it isnt the norm. Perhaps its only the very large guilds using this??</p><p>I dont know of a single "after work" sports league that requires 4-5 hours of practice, 4-5 days per week. That is more along the lines of a professional sports league and even there it would be considered extreme except for pre-season intensive training. Hence my question about the "after work" sports leaguers looking for 1, maybe 2 times per week.</p><p>Not a big deal really, just trying to get a flavor for whats out there, at least from the perspective of the forums, which oddly enough is usually in contract to the majority of in-game conversations. Not sure exactly why that is though....</p><p>As always, many thanks for your insights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[thebunny]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was under the impression sign ups did exist for scheduled raids - with more a 4 slots open for healer class, etc...apparently not though. At the very least, it isnt the norm. Perhaps its only the very large guilds using this??</p><p>I dont know of a single "after work" sports league that requires 4-5 hours of practice, 4-5 days per week. That is more along the lines of a professional sports league and even there it would be considered extreme except for pre-season intensive training. Hence my question about the "after work" sports leaguers looking for 1, maybe 2 times per week.</p><p>Not a big deal really, just trying to get a flavor for whats out there, at least from the perspective of the forums, which oddly enough is usually in contract to the majority of in-game conversations. Not sure exactly why that is though....</p><p>As always, many thanks for your insights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p>Casual raiding guilds and raid alliances sometimes make use of signup lists.  Generally in these situations there are a large number of players who are part of the guild or alliance, but since there are no attendance requirements it is a good way to find out in advance who all is interested in attending and then filling the roster from that list.</p><p>As an example, the raid alliance that I am part of posts raids about a week in advance.  People sign up on a website for the raid, and then the day before the raid the raid leader will fill out the roster for that raid based on a number of factors (order of signup, experience with the raid alliance, etc.).  Anyone who doesn't make it on the roster for that raid is placed on reserve, and if anyone doesn't show up to the raid their spot is filled from someone on reserve.</p><p>I would guess the more hardcore raiding guilds don't need to make use of signup lists since they expect everyone to be at every raid.  If you can't attend a raid you tell the raid leader ahead of time so they can make provisions for filling your spot.</p>

[Khurghan]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So why questions are: (this is not a flame or rant, just trying to understand the logic so any insight is appreciated)</p><ol><li>If Raids are signed up for why must someone commit to 2-3 times per week? If they can only raid once per week but you know they are definitely going to show up for that raid why this requirement?</li><li>Guild member - why do they need to be a guild member? There are no requirements for writ grinding or leveling requirements so there must be something I am missing here.</li><li>DKP - seems logical but again, if the system is manually comprised and updated, why can it only be put in place for guild members. I really feel as though I am missing something here.</li><li>Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory).</li></ol><p>Insights to these questions would definitely be helpful as I am struggling to undersand the raiding mentality of today to determine if it is a path I want to pursue. Many thanks in advance.</p></blockquote> 1) They don't but it makes life a lot easier. You don't need to recruit multiple people to fill the same regular "spot" in your raid line up which means people tend to (that's the theory although EoF PRNG tends to screw this up) get gear faster which means your force becomes better equiped and thus can move on to tougher targets (thats the theory although EQ2 does not really have much progression so once you have your gear you can spend your time being bored and posting on the Sony forums about lack of raid progression/content).    Guilds with larger more casual (or mixed) player bases tend to do better with sign-ups for raids (and plenty of guilds raiding 4-7 days a week using sign-ups <i>do exist</i>), but if you want a smaller tighter guild its probably best to go with mandatory attendance/post if you are going to be afk etc. 2) They don't it just makes life a lot lot easier. People's responsibility to their guild tends to take priority over other matters (including raid alliances) so you won't suddenly get 50% of your players not turning up because they "are helping Fred camp a mob for his epic". 3) It doesn't (see above). DKP can be a whole can of worms in ways hard to imagine <a href="http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/wiki/a-guide-to-dkprpp-explanation-examples-and-summary/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/wiki...es-and-summary/</a>  provides some useful info and covers issues like inflation etc. 4) There is lots of nice gear you can get without raiding -     EoF collections (and KoS Orb collections)     EoF class sets from one group instances/Kaladim/CMM/MMC     Claymore Quest line     SoDding Quest line    In fact some of this one group stuff will be <i>better </i>than a lot of the items you can get by raiding KoS content. Hope this helps. - Khurghan Ironstay

[Crib92]

<p> If you join a raiding guild.  (Whose primary focus is raiding)  The expectation is that you will attend every raid, whether you are picked to join or not.  Therefore, no sign-up sheets exist.  Most Guild/Raid leaders don't want to waste inordinate amounts of time trying to figure out weekly schedules and whose going to what etc...</p><p>Also, many guilds have attendance policies of varying strictness to drive this behavior.</p><p>To get a flavor you may want to check out some Raiding Guild Policies and Procedures.  Here is a link of Clan Of Shadow's to give you some flavor.</p><p><a href="http://clanofshadows.net/forum/faq.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://clanofshadows.net/forum/faq.php</a></p>

[Korpo]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was under the impression sign ups did exist for scheduled raids - with more a 4 slots open for healer class, etc...apparently not though. At the very least, it isnt the norm. Perhaps its only the very large guilds using this??<p>I dont know of a single "after work" sports league that requires 4-5 hours of practice, 4-5 days per week. That is more along the lines of a professional sports league and even there it would be considered extreme except for pre-season intensive training. Hence my question about the "after work" sports leaguers looking for 1, maybe 2 times per week.</p><p>Not a big deal really, just trying to get a flavor for whats out there, at least from the perspective of the forums, which oddly enough is usually in contract to the majority of in-game conversations. Not sure exactly why that is though....</p><p>As always, many thanks for your insights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>Hardcore raid guilds are the professional sports players of EQ2. Your work softball team probably practices once or twice a week and games on Saturdays, and that's cool; they're just not in the same league as the Mets. They're playing the same game according to the same rules and all that, but the Mets take it much more seriously and devote their lives to it. For that, they get huge paychecks: <img src="http://www.thewvsr.com/_derived/piazzapayday.htm_txt_check.gif" border="0"> Hardcore raiders dedicate huge chunks of their lives to their goal, which is somewhat less impressive: <img src="http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/korpo53/boots1.jpg" border="0"> Those are boots on my feet, not banana skins.

[Valdaglerion]

<p>OMG, that is one of the funniest things I have seen in a while. Thanks for sharing the banana pic! hehehe</p>

[Kendricke]

Valdaglerion wrote: <blockquote><p>I dont know of a single "after work" sports league that requires 4-5 hours of practice, 4-5 days per week. </p></blockquote><p>In your original post, you stated 2-3 nights a week, and never stated 4-5 hours per night.  My own guild raids 3-4 nights a week, 3 hours at a time.  We're not hardcore, nor do we claim to be...nor did you claim you were looking for a more serious raid guild experience.  </p><p>So, again, compared to the original stated experience of 2-3 nights a week, for a few hours at a time, I could easily see that as akin to an after work sports league.  </p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Nothing more needed to say really. I was looking for the varying degrees of information out there on raiding guilds and perhaps some logic behind it. I think I have what I needed. No need to derail further. Thanks.</p>

[Karlen]

>>><li>Must have a minimum 75% of your Master spells for your current tier (in thiscase, T7 player so mostly T6-T7 spells)</li><li>Must have at least Legendary gear (if you dont have "some" fabled, well....we will have to see)</li> Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory).<<< You stated that they asked for legendary and 75% master.  Both of these can be bought on the broker in reasonable quantities.  You should be able to achieve legendary+75% master through soloing and purchasing on the broker or doing a number of group instances and the easier raids. Some masters are hard to get, but 75% seems achieveable without raiding. I have bought fabled items on the broker and gotten them from group instances.  Joining pickup raids/groups to kill epic nameds is also a way to get a chance at fabled.

[Lariu]

<p>Masters and gear:</p><p>Read: Must be able to hit the mob and must not go splat every time an x4 mob looks in your general direction.</p><p>You're no use on a raid if everything you cast is resisted and as soon as the mob AE's you're calling for a rez.</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So why questions are: (this is not a flame or rant, just trying to understand the logic so any insight is appreciated)</p><p>If Raids are signed up for why must someone commit to 2-3 times per week? If they can only raid once per week but you know they are definitely going to show up for that raid why this requirement?</p><p><span style="color: #990000">As others have said, 24 well-equipped players that have experience working together, will clear zones faster than 100 people working on a rota. The fewer people in the raid force, the faster the individuals in it will gear up.</span></p><p>Guild member - why d they need to be a guild member? There are no requirements for writ grinding or leveling requirements so there must be something I am missing here.</p><p><span style="color: #990000">I think the question is why would you <i><b>not</b></i> want to join a guild, if you're spending your online time raiding with it? Surely the only reason to belong to another guild would be social; and you can keep in touch with people through channels and tells. Having everyone in the same guild helps coordinate things since you have at-a-glance displays of who is online, access to a shared bank, a loot history, personal messages / guild MOTD, and everyone has access to guild level 60 resources. Additionally, it helps build the guilds reputation if people with their tag are decked in full fabled, and this in turn makes finding new recruits easier.</span></p><p>DKP - seems logical but again, if the system is manually comprised and updated, why can it only be put in place for guild members. I really feel as though I am missing something here.</p><p><span style="color: #990000">This is really linked to the above point. It seems from the general tone of the questions what you're asking is "why can't I just turn up once a week and raid with an uberguild?". The answer is that it takes a lot of effort to get first kills on named and clear instances; a lot of wiping, and a lot of practise to get strategies down. There's no shortage of players that would happily raid on their terms, turning up when they feel like it, simply being told what to do then collecting their fabled item, as is the case with pickup raids. What seperates a raid guild from a pickup raid is that the raid guild are willing to put the effort in to clear zones before the spoilers come online and the strategies are common knowledge. This needs well geared competent players to work them out. You don't get that with a rota system.</span></p><p>Gear - semi-understood but most of the gear requirements (more so fabled than legendary) are dropped in raids. If you arent a raider how are you supposed to gear for raiding without raiding? (chicken vs. egg theory).</p><p><span style="color: #990000">Gear is absolutely not an issue for us in recruiting. <i><b>However,</b></i> what does it say about a player when they're in treasured gear, with adept spells? To me it says they're either lazy, inexperienced, have a very low playtime, or are an alt. None of these characteristics are what you'd want in someone you're intending to try and beat end-game content with. Good legendary gear, on the other hand, indicates you can work well in a group, and masters show that you're willing to invest the time and effort to earn the cash to get spells upgraded. I know these can all be ebayed; which is why you have a trial period and look at how they parse relative to their gear. But you can tell a lot about a player generally with a quick inspection, not just whether their gear is treasured/legendary/fabled but also if they know <i>how</i> to gear. For a caster, for example, seeing them using the mystical orb of the invoker / grizfazzles staff even though it's an easy to obtain item shows they at least appreciate what's good for dps.</span></p></blockquote>