Tier 1 tradeskilling - overwhelming?

[Kellin]

I was thinking.  I have a friend who just started the game.  He asked about tradeskilling, and all I could think was "man, it'd be easier if you just watched me play from over my shoulder."  The main reason for this is the buffs.  The sheer, overwhelming number of different buffs for all the different tradeskills. So I got to thinking - for tier 1, wouldn't it make more sense to have just a set of artisan buffs?  One set of three progress buffs, usable on any combine.  When you reach tier 2, have your t2 durability buffs be craftsman, scholar, outfitter.  Tier 3, you finally get the specific buffs for your specific tradeskill class. The sheer number of T1 recipes, combined with having to change stations and fuels, is overwhelming enough without having to change buffs all the time.

[epyon333]

<p>Wow its not that hard.  </p><p>At t1 there are nine skills to choose from each having 3 progress buffs</p><p>1 uses power to increase progress</p><p>1 decreases chance of success but increases progress</p><p>1 decreases duriblity but increases progress</p><p>At t2 you have 3 skills to choose from each having 3 duriblity buffs.</p><p>1 uses power to increase duriblity</p><p>1 decreases chance of success but increases duriblity</p><p>1 decreases progress but increases duribility</p><p>at t3 you have 1 skill and 3 stronger progress buffs</p><p>at t4 you have that same skill and 3 stronger duriblily buffs.</p><p>its simple, just be glad you dont have sub combines.</p>

[Calthine]

Actually, I kind of like the Op's idea.  Lots and lots and LOTS of people have a hard time with learning to use their arts, or there wouldn't be so many guides (sure, it's easy once you learn it, but it can be a big hurdle).  It's not very intuitive, and there's no tutorial to show you how any more.

[dartie]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, I kind of like the Op's idea.  Lots and lots and LOTS of people have a hard time with learning to use their arts, or there wouldn't be so many guides (sure, it's easy once you learn it, but it can be a big hurdle).  It's not very intuitive, and there's no tutorial to show you how any more. </blockquote><p>Agreed on all counts.  I quite like the idea too.</p>

[Kellin]

Yeah, it's not that the idea of the three types is so hard to grasp, but that you can fill 3 hotkey bars with arts for different tradeskills.  Why?  They all do about the same thing, so why, as an artisan, must one use artificing over metalworking?  I mean, it's not like you've even chosen your tradeskill yet. I know that Domino is looking at the arts and how they scale across tiers and tradeskills, but I thought that perhaps a simplification of tier 1 might be in order as well.

[Lortet]

Like the idea as well. Although I think I have been to the odd irl restaurant where the chef was using his metalsmith buffs........

[dartie]

<cite>Lortet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like the idea as well. Although I think I have been to the odd irl restaurant where the chef was using his metalsmith buffs........</blockquote><p>Hehe.  Sounds like my cooking!</p>

[VolgaDark]

<p>I wouldn't say that crafting is overwhelming per say, but it really does need to be "cleaned up" a bit. </p><p>They really should add which profession is using which reactions in to their description. </p><p>Also it would be very helpful if the filter could be set up to display only the reactions used by selected class (if one chooses to set their filter that way). </p><p>And last but not least .... please remove the reactions for the secondary skills we no longer have (yes I know this only effects crafters post level 10). All it does is clutters the knowledge book and confuses the hell out of people who didn't play and/or craft prior to LU24. </p>

[epyon333]

<p>you only have so many at t1 because you have so many skills to choose from at t1.  when im starting a new tradeskiller ill only stick to the ones related to what im going to have to character do.</p><p> my t1 "armorer"  will do mostly armor, some times tailor or make weaps if i need that to finish out a level.  and do almost no armorer or craftsman work.</p><p> tsing has all ready been dumbed down greatly, it doesnt need it again.  </p>

[RainQueen]

<cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote>And last but not least .... please remove the reactions for the secondary skills we no longer have (yes I know this only effects crafters post level 10). All it does is clutters the knowledge book and confuses the hell out of people who didn't play and/or craft prior to LU24. </blockquote> Actually the cross-class arts are still used for quest crafting, e.g. Wurmslayer, Bone-Clasped Girdle, and the Nest of the Great Egg recipes so they can't be removed.

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>/signed</p><p>This idea makes absolute sense to me. </p>

[VolgaDark]

Galthyx@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote>And last but not least .... please remove the reactions for the secondary skills we no longer have (yes I know this only effects crafters post level 10). All it does is clutters the knowledge book and confuses the hell out of people who didn't play and/or craft prior to LU24. </blockquote> Actually the cross-class arts are still used for quest crafting, e.g. Wurmslayer, Bone-Clasped Girdle, and the Nest of the Great Egg recipes so they can't be removed.</blockquote><p>Oops sorry, didn't know that (I don't participate in high end adventuring much).</p><p>Blonde question however: How can one raise the secondary skill these days?</p><p>Also doesn't one "have" to be inside special zones to craft those things? Could the secondary skill's reaction maybe only be "visible" in zones they can actually be used in? Or somehow filterable? I aint kidding when I say it confuses the hell out of new and/or young crafters. I don't know how many times I got asked "what do I use -insert secondary art reaction- on?"  .... </p>

[Bithnar]

Galthyx@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote>And last but not least .... please remove the reactions for the secondary skills we no longer have (yes I know this only effects crafters post level 10). All it does is clutters the knowledge book and confuses the hell out of people who didn't play and/or craft prior to LU24. </blockquote> Actually the cross-class arts are still used for quest crafting, e.g. Wurmslayer, Bone-Clasped Girdle, and the Nest of the Great Egg recipes so they can't be removed.</blockquote><p>Sure they can be removed, just change the quests to use the T1 tradeskills, but I know that easier said than done.</p><p> I do agree with the OP idea of making only 3 artisan T1 tradeskill buffs.  I think it would help those new to EQ2's crafting system a great deal. </p>

[Jai1]

I really like this idea. The problem for me was that I had to start an item, open the book and then look for the 'Lit up' counters to then organize it all the while trying to craft. An alternative would be to line them up in you book so you could page through and see the 3 that are for the station in some kind of order.

[Vonotar]

An excellent idea. Next ensure that all the HQ's etc that have a crafting element use the new T1 multi-buffs also and we can finally get rid of those buffs that can't be used for normal crafting. The user will see a simple progression of skills, i.e. 3 buffs for T1, 3 buffs for T2, 3 buffs for T3 etc. I love it!

[Rast]

<p>I like the idea too.</p><p>I would still rather see us have to pick our class from the get go (ie, at character select) and get rid of the artisan/2nd tier class and all the abilities being targeted to that class.  With a better spread of abilities rather than just duration/progress, but include things like buffs and debuffs and such.  Some of which could be group oriented to facilitate later group oriented crafting.</p>

[Calthine]

<cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Blonde question however: How can one raise the secondary skill these days?</p> </blockquote> You don't - it autolevels.

[VolgaDark]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Blonde question however: How can one raise the secondary skill these days?</p> </blockquote> You don't - it autolevels. </blockquote><p>Omg are you serious? Can I be rude for a sec and /roll my eyes ?</p><p>So we have 5 tiers worth of 4 (?) secondary skills reactions we no longer need for "regular" crafting, only use for uber items crafted in special areas and they are auto-leveled to top it all .... </p><p>Ok, I'm being rude ... sorry about the following ....</p><p>/rolls her eyes </p><p>oooo and I'm not rolling my eyes at you lady Calthine just in general  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Calthine]

<cite>VolgaDark wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>oooo and I'm not rolling my eyes at you lady Calthine just in general  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p> </blockquote> I know.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Those arts were slated to go away, but leaving them in for the HQ and causing them to autolevel was an easier solution apparently.

[Valdaglerion]

<p>People - it takes 30 minutes to do Tier 1 crafting. Quite honestly, you dont have to use a single counter to get through Tier 1 crafting.</p><p>Here is a guide for you -</p><ol><li>Go harvest in the noob area or lowbie zone, take your pick. Harvest til you have the following items (1 stack of each). Severed Elm (wood), Tin Clusters (stones), Leaded Loam (ore), Malachite (stones), Lead (ore), Roots (from um...roots) and Frog legs (fish for them) (you dont need a 1 stack of each but this is erring on the side of caution)</li><li>Go to the tradeskill instance. You will receive a book called "Starting a Tradeskill Profession"</li><li>Examine the book</li><li>Talk to the Tradeskill representative (it starts a quest)</li><li>Talk to the fuel merchant - ask for instruction - you get Artisan Essentails Volume 2, right click and "Scribe" it</li><li>Press 'N' to open your Recipe Book. Exam the recipe you need to make to complete your quest</li><li>Buy enough fuel needed from the fuel merchant to complete your recipe</li><li>Find the appropriate machine to make your recipe. Click on the machine and your recipe book comes up. Select the appropriate recipe and click "Create". If you have the items listed above and purchased the correct fuel you are now creating that recipe.</li><li>It usually only takes once to create the pristine recipe. The exception I have found is the quest which asks you to create spells scrolls. For some reason even with pristine you typically have to create 2-3 spells to finish the xp requirement to scribe the enxt book. After you finish your recipe and get the "DING!" go back to the Tradeskill Rep. Turn in your quest. Lo and behold, that one receipe along with the xp you get for doing the quest jsut dinged you up and level and took about 2 minutes. And best part, you get Artisan Essentials Volume 3 as a quest reward.</li><li>Get another quest (yes you keep getting them because this quest line was designed to get you through T1 crafting). Each completion gives you the next book (no need to buy the books when you do this quest)</li><li>Rinse and repeat. The final quest reward is the Artisans Tunic which has like a +5 stat on it. You must be level 5 to equip it though. If you were able to harvest your own materials you are more than likely level 5+ anyway.</li></ol><p>Seriously, the entire time it takes to do the entire Tradeskill Quest line is 30 minutes. helpful hint - if you have more than one toon you intend to skill - write down the materials and fuels you need and the quanities. I have that sheet at home or I would have included the exact numbers in this. Having that information makes it faster as you can buy all your fuels from the merchant once, instead of having to examine and purchase for each recipe.</p><p>With regards to tradeskill arts - I think an in-game tutorial is needed but dont see the need for any changes to the game mechanics specifically.</p><p>For some reason not many people seem to know about the tradeskill quest so I hope you find it helpful and that T1 crafting becomes less tedious and time consuming.</p>

[Raveller]

Exactly what is difficult about playing whack-a-mole?

[Didi]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly what is difficult about playing whack-a-mole? </blockquote><p>Being the mole, for a start ...</p><p>And probably also being handed 39 different mallets all with slightly different stats only three of which work at a time.  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Not exactly hard, just a bit confusing for newbies, I can see! </p>

[epyon333]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>People - it takes 30 minutes to do Tier 1 crafting.</p></blockquote> Finally someone that agrees that T1 crafting is cake.  i was starting to worry.

[dartie]

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>People - it takes 30 minutes to do Tier 1 crafting.</p></blockquote> Finally someone that agrees that T1 crafting is cake.  i was starting to worry.</blockquote><p> I think you're worrying about imaginary things.  No one denies that it's cake, but the idea would simplify a system that is unnecesarily cumbersome.</p><p>There's nothing challenging about the system as it is now, but it is nevertheless frustrating for people who are new to the game and still figuring out where to place their hotbars and what to put on their hotbars.  </p><p>I didn't walk away from crafting the first time because it was complicated.  I walked away because it was tedious.  This is one way of reducing the tedium of sorting through the buffs for 9 different crafts.  </p><p>Didi put it very well.  There's nothing hard about whacking the mole no matter how many mallets you can use to whack it, but as the game hands you 3 and then 6 and then 18 and then 27 different mallets, you find yourself saying, "I don't really want to lug all of these mallets around anymore.  I think crafting is for people who like to spend too much time studying their mallets."</p><p>And no, you don't have to use any counters to get through T1, so you don't have to mess with the mallets if you don't want to.  But if you're new to the crafting game and CURIOUS about how it works, then I don't see how a less tedious process of setting up hotbars would be such an objectionable thing.  </p>

[epyon333]

<p>how about just one button to do everything.  is that simple enough?  </p><p> anyway this is a rpg and those 3 all relate to the type of crafting your doing.  what would you call these 3 universal buffs so that they would fit into a fantasy world?</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Let me interject with some fact and then some personal opinion as they directly relate to the OP's statement concerning the complexity of the tradearts:</p><ul><li>Fact - there is no in-game instruction</li><li>Fact - recently (within the last few weeks) Domino was involved in a thread which discussed it and for the most part many agreed that some type of in-game tutorial was needed to better explain tradeskilling to <strike>noobs</strike>..new players</li><li>Fact - I dont disagree with the need for a tutorial. I wholly support that we need one</li><li>Fact - every time you dumb down tradeskilling it kills it off a bit more</li><li>PO - Open your Knowledge Window and look at the ones that light up when you work with a particular machine. Once you hit 20 (which can be done in less than 2 hours) those are the only ones you need on your toolbar. If you cant figure that out by the time you get to 20 Idont want you making equipment that my virtual life depends on...LOL (sorry I couldnt resist the sarcasm)</li><li>PO - I wish inter class dependency would be brought back in the game as another or more correctly stated as a TRUE Mastercrafting. Not as a replacement to the existing system but an augmentation to it (another level for those wanting to go beyond the cap. hit 70, fine, now you can apply for Mastercrafter training). The current system is fine for cutting your teeth and figuring out crafting but truly lacks finesse, immersion and usefulness to gameplay for MOST of the current crafting content (with exceptions of consumables not found in their equal or greater counterparts as drops in game). Would love to see a Mastercrafting System allowing users to compete with Legendary and Fabled drops. Talk about a market shot in the arm.</li></ul><p>What I mean by immersion is that a Sage needs wood, roots, stone material and incense to make a spell??? Really now? I thought we needed knowledge, scrolls, pens, and ink. Hmmm....</p><p>It was said long ago that if we continued to dumb down the system we would end up with an empty meaningless list of ingredients and no one would remeber why they were used to make the end products. It seems this is coming to pass. Those ingredients used to be some of the things used to make, pens, ink and paper but how many people know that? Remeber making glass bottles so the inks had containers? Making quills so Sages could make spells? How about cooking down some of your ingredients first to be used in other recipes?</p><p>I know it was hard, I know you were dependent on other classes to make things you had to buy or trade for. Heaven forbid artisan communities exist. /sigh</p><p>All I am saying is that rather than continually lower the bar for the whole why not augment those who need more training with that very thing - more training so they can accomplish more, not trivialize the work by accomplishing less. /rant off</p>

[epyon333]

i agree.  i was actually upset when the took out the sub combines.  yeah they were a pain and made tradeskilling harder but i dont play online rpgs because i want everything to come easy.  Im an armorer, i didnt mind that it took making metal bars, studs leather harnesses and cloth padding to make one piece of armor.  it made it more worth while.  now it seems everyone is an armorer and the handcrafted armor is not worth trying to sell.

[TheSpin]

<p>This post is obviously writtin from the point of view of the new player, which we are getting more of these days.  I don't think it's really the place to discuss end game crafting and new crafting concepts.</p><p>I think that the idea is perfect for a new player to get started.  I know that through experience you can figure out how to do all this stuff in very little time, but many new players aren't trying to power level their 20th new character to 70 as fast as possible.</p><p>If the tradeskill arts that we have now didn't come into play until level 20 or so I don't see how it would take away from anything all the end game crafters are doing.  There's a massive difference between basically changing the UI for tradeskilling than changing it's core rules.</p><p><span style="color: #666600">I say this....level 1 and level 10 skills are 'generic' and all the class specific skills are given at level 20.  Make all HQ and "other" crafting situations use the generic abilities.</span></p><p>For you 'hard core' crafters it would actually make it more difficult to craft the HQ rewards because you only have the level 1 and 10 counters.  Not that that should really make it difficult, but perhaps a little more time consuming.</p><p>It's not a nerf or simplification of the system, it's a simplification of the learning process.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is obviously writtin from the point of view of the new player, which we are getting more of these days.  I don't think it's really the place to discuss end game crafting and new crafting concepts.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">I respectfully disagree. You need to look at the bigger picture before making changes to the fundamental basis of any system.</span></p><p>I think that the idea is perfect for a new player to get started.  I know that through experience you can figure out how to do all this stuff in very little time, but many new players aren't trying to power level their 20th new character to 70 as fast as possible.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">The current system is fine <b><u>BUT NEEDS A TUTORIAL IN GAME TO BETTER TRAIN THE NEW USERS</u></b>.</span></p><p>If the tradeskill arts that we have now didn't come into play until level 20 or so I don't see how it would take away from anything all the end game crafters are doing.  There's a massive difference between basically changing the UI for tradeskilling than changing it's core rules.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">If you merely change the T1 and T2 arts to be generic you are only shifting the problem from T1 to T3. The new players will grow up crafting in this overly simplified system to an already simple system and then hit T3 and go ' wait, everything is different. Oh man, screw this" and end up with more frustration in the end. This is much like college - you spend 4 years of your life learning mostly things which have no basis in real world business applications, I digress.</span></p><p>For you 'hard core' crafters it would actually make it more difficult to craft the HQ rewards because you only have the level 1 and 10 counters.  Not that that should really make it difficult, but perhaps a little more time consuming.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Actually I only use the lower ones anyway. If you are constantly upgrading your toolbars you are overlooking some fundamental game dynamics and need to experiment more <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p>It's not a nerf or simplification of the system, it's a simplification of the learning process.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">No, its a further simplication of the system. Just make the tutorials and lets be done with this. Sheesh, have one of the tradeskill NPCs go through a powerpoint with new players when they come in....LOL</span></p></blockquote>

[TheSpin]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is obviously writtin from the point of view of the new player, which we are getting more of these days.  I don't think it's really the place to discuss end game crafting and new crafting concepts.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">I respectfully disagree. You need to look at the bigger picture before making changes to the fundamental basis of any system.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339933">The bigger picture is this....I currently have like 40 tradeskill abilities and use 6 of them on a regular basis (10 if you pick up a secondary)</span></p><p>I think that the idea is perfect for a new player to get started.  I know that through experience you can figure out how to do all this stuff in very little time, but many new players aren't trying to power level their 20th new character to 70 as fast as possible.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">The current system is fine <b><u>BUT NEEDS A TUTORIAL IN GAME TO BETTER TRAIN THE NEW USERS</u></b>.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339933">A tutorial would solve the problem, but it would be very time consuming.  The time it takes to figure everything out for a new player would better be spent actually making items to familiarize themselves with actual crafting rather than just theoretical crafting.</span></p><p>If the tradeskill arts that we have now didn't come into play until level 20 or so I don't see how it would take away from anything all the end game crafters are doing.  There's a massive difference between basically changing the UI for tradeskilling than changing it's core rules.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">If you merely change the T1 and T2 arts to be generic you are only shifting the problem from T1 to T3. The new players will grow up crafting in this overly simplified system to an already simple system and then hit T3 and go ' wait, everything is different. Oh man, screw this" and end up with more frustration in the end. This is much like college - you spend 4 years of your life learning mostly things which have no basis in real world business applications, I digress.</span></p><p><span style="color: #33cc33">As I stated above.  I'm talking about going from about 40 skills in my tradeskill window to 6 original, and at level 20 you would get 9 that are directed specifically at your class.  They could even just add 3 at level 20 and allow you to continue to use the previous ones you got at levels 1 and 10.  It's not postponing, it's cleaning up a heck of a lot of wasted space.</span></p><p>For you 'hard core' crafters it would actually make it more difficult to craft the HQ rewards because you only have the level 1 and 10 counters.  Not that that should really make it difficult, but perhaps a little more time consuming.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Actually I only use the lower ones anyway. If you are constantly upgrading your toolbars you are overlooking some fundamental game dynamics and need to experiment more <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #33cc00">I craft from the knowledge book, by far the easiest way tod o it before LU24 and it's still the easiest way now if you don't mind usin your mouse more than your keyboard.  When I craft I go for speed and I use whatever skills will give me the best yield for the time I have (I also craft without gear and with high quality drink, and power regen totems).</span></p><p>It's not a nerf or simplification of the system, it's a simplification of the learning process.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">No, its a further simplication of the system. Just make the tutorials and lets be done with this. Sheesh, have one of the tradeskill NPCs go through a powerpoint with new players when they come in....LOL</span></p><p><span style="color: #33ff00">Power point is exactly what doesn't need to happen.  It's overly complicated as it is now.  Especially because others have made it very clear that it only takes about 30 minutes to get to level 10 and then you have 3 pages worth of skills in your knowledge book that you'll never use again.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Powerpoints was sarcasm but seriously, if crafting gets any more dumbed down I for one will cease to invest any time in it. There are few items in the game that are crafted that are actually needed anymore so for me at this point, its more achievement driven. The whole, I did it! mentality versus the "I am going to get rich now mentality".</p><p>Take away the challenge and you can have my toons. And yes, I am one of the dorks that has multiple accounts I do only crafting with. So when you dumb down crafting anymore you can have those accounts.</p><p>/rant off - moving on~</p>

[TheSpin]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Powerpoints was sarcasm but seriously, if crafting gets any more dumbed down I for one will cease to invest any time in it. There are few items in the game that are crafted that are actually needed anymore so for me at this point, its more achievement driven. The whole, I did it! mentality versus the "I am going to get rich now mentality".</p><p>Take away the challenge and you can have my toons. And yes, I am one of the dorks that has multiple accounts I do only crafting with. So when you dumb down crafting anymore you can have those accounts.</p><p>/rant off - moving on~</p></blockquote><p> I don't see how you call this dumbing down.</p><p>You remind me of the person that was upset that master strikes were changed to adjust to lore and legend quests because it made it too easy.  It's not changing the system, which is where any 'challenge' should exist.  If you're going to disagree with a proposed change to tradeskilling I would think it would be the exp given for doing writs.....that's dumbing down ( or at least simplifying it due to making it take less time ).</p>

[Off]

Let us not forget or confuse the difference between making something easy as opposed to making it more convenient.  Convenience is not necessarily easier.  A tutorial would be a good idea to go through the motions in training a new and upcoming crafter.  That's a given.  Taking out subcombines was one the of the best concepts ever implemented in tradeskilling in my opinion.  Taking out subcombines also had no bearing on the value of an item as far as end product goes.  The end products are just as they were, only now they cost you less in fuels and components to make. 

[epyon333]

<p>Oooooh!! how about they do what they did with the adventure sub classes and get rid of them.</p><p>why not just start as an armorer, weapon smith, or tailor then you only have the 3 buff that pertain to your class.</p>

[epyon333]

<cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking out subcombines also had no bearing on the value of an item as far as end product goes.  The end products are just as they were, only now they cost you less in fuels and components to make.  </blockquote> Errr what??!! are you serious.  find an armorer and ask if he can sell handcrafted items anymore.  i was before the sub combines were taken out because there was less on the market due to how long it took to make one piece of armor.  after that just going from raws to final product killed it bc it cut so much time out of the process and every armorer had more to sell.  higher supply means price drops.

[FoxRiverRanger]

<p>It has been acknowledged that crafting needs a much improved introductory quest/tutorial system.  Perhaps that training should include a walkthrough on sorting the tradeskill arts them by type so all the arts related to one skill apear together.  Have the quest guide the player to the correct skills for the crafting station and recipe they are using, and suggest the player adds them to a dedicated tradeskill hotbar.  Repeat the instructions for the durability arts at level 10.  Add one of those purple question mark boxes triggered to appear the first time a player clicks on a cross-crafting art in their knowledge book that opens a pop-up explaining that those arts are only used for a handful of adventure quests and are no longer a part of the crafting experience.  If necessary add a new tab to the knowledge window for the cross-crafting skills, thus removing them from the tradeskill tab and further emphasizing their specialized purpose.</p><p>Tier 1 crafting is not difficult.  With better in-game guidance on finding and setting up the appropriate counters, it should not be overwhelming either.</p>

[Off]

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking out subcombines also had no bearing on the value of an item as far as end product goes.  The end products are just as they were, only now they cost you less in fuels and components to make.  </blockquote> Errr what??!! are you serious.  find an armorer and ask if he can sell handcrafted items anymore.  i was before the sub combines were taken out because there was less on the market due to how long it took to make one piece of armor.  after that just going from raws to final product killed it bc it cut so much time out of the process and every armorer had more to sell.  higher supply means price drops.</blockquote>Actually, I'm quite serious.  When people were pricing items to sell before subcombines were taken out of the game, naturally the prices were more expensive - there were more costs incurred.  Now they are being sold for less mainly due to the costs incurred not being so high.  Granted higher supply means lower prices also, but that still has no bearing in the quality of the end product, which is what I commented on.

[epyon333]

<cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking out subcombines also had <span style="color: #6633ff"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">no bearing on the value</span></b> </span>of an item as far as end product goes.  The end products are just as they were, only now they cost you less in fuels and components to make.  </blockquote> Errr what??!! are you serious.  find an armorer and ask if he can sell handcrafted items anymore.  i was before the sub combines were taken out because there was less on the market due to how long it took to make one piece of armor.  after that just going from raws to final product killed it bc it cut so much time out of the process and every armorer had more to sell.  higher supply means price drops.</blockquote>Actually, I'm quite serious.  When people were pricing items to sell before subcombines were taken out of the game, naturally the prices were more expensive - there were more costs incurred.  Now they are being sold for less mainly due to the costs incurred not being so high.  Granted higher supply means lower prices also, but that still has no bearing in the quality of the end product, which is what I commented on. </blockquote>Im pretty sure you said no bearing on the value, as you can see in the first time i quoted you.  which was what i was talking about.

[Off]

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking out subcombines also had <span style="color: #6633ff"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">no bearing on the value</span></b> </span>of an item as far as end product goes.  The end products are just as they were, only now they cost you less in fuels and components to make.  </blockquote> Errr what??!! are you serious.  find an armorer and ask if he can sell handcrafted items anymore.  i was before the sub combines were taken out because there was less on the market due to how long it took to make one piece of armor.  after that just going from raws to final product killed it bc it cut so much time out of the process and every armorer had more to sell.  higher supply means price drops.</blockquote>Actually, I'm quite serious.  When people were pricing items to sell before subcombines were taken out of the game, naturally the prices were more expensive - there were more costs incurred.  Now they are being sold for less mainly due to the costs incurred not being so high.  Granted higher supply means lower prices also, but that still has no bearing in the quality of the end product, which is what I commented on. </blockquote>Im pretty sure you said no bearing on the value, as you can see in the first time i quoted you.  which was what i was talking about. </blockquote>By value I do not mean monetary, I mean quality, hence my comment on the end products being the same as they were.

[epyon333]

<cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking out subcombines also had <span style="color: #6633ff"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">no bearing on the value</span></b> </span>of an item as far as end product goes.  The end products are just as they were, only now they cost you less in fuels and components to make.  </blockquote> Errr what??!! are you serious.  find an armorer and ask if he can sell handcrafted items anymore.  i was before the sub combines were taken out because there was less on the market due to how long it took to make one piece of armor.  after that just going from raws to final product killed it bc it cut so much time out of the process and every armorer had more to sell.  higher supply means price drops.</blockquote>Actually, I'm quite serious.  When people were pricing items to sell before subcombines were taken out of the game, naturally the prices were more expensive - there were more costs incurred.  Now they are being sold for less mainly due to the costs incurred not being so high.  Granted higher supply means lower prices also, but that still has no bearing in the quality of the end product, which is what I commented on. </blockquote>Im pretty sure you said no bearing on the value, as you can see in the first time i quoted you.  which was what i was talking about. </blockquote>By value I do not mean monetary, I mean quality, hence my comment on the end products being the same as they were. </blockquote> oh.. well in that case the quality did also go down.  when they took out the subs they added the different types of armor.  not just chain or vanguard anymore, but vanguard, plate, and devout for plate armor and 4 different types of chain.  at the same time the lowered the stats of the hand crafted armor.

[Off]

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking out subcombines also had <span style="color: #6633ff"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">no bearing on the value</span></b> </span>of an item as far as end product goes.  The end products are just as they were, only now they cost you less in fuels and components to make.  </blockquote> Errr what??!! are you serious.  find an armorer and ask if he can sell handcrafted items anymore.  i was before the sub combines were taken out because there was less on the market due to how long it took to make one piece of armor.  after that just going from raws to final product killed it bc it cut so much time out of the process and every armorer had more to sell.  higher supply means price drops.</blockquote>Actually, I'm quite serious.  When people were pricing items to sell before subcombines were taken out of the game, naturally the prices were more expensive - there were more costs incurred.  Now they are being sold for less mainly due to the costs incurred not being so high.  Granted higher supply means lower prices also, but that still has no bearing in the quality of the end product, which is what I commented on. </blockquote>Im pretty sure you said no bearing on the value, as you can see in the first time i quoted you.  which was what i was talking about. </blockquote>By value I do not mean monetary, I mean quality, hence my comment on the end products being the same as they were. </blockquote> oh.. well in that case the quality did also go down.  when they took out the subs they added the different types of armor.  not just chain or vanguard anymore, but vanguard, plate, and devout for plate armor and 4 different types of chain.  at the same time the lowered the stats of the hand crafted armor.</blockquote>I do believe that part of that was the natural art of the ever famous nerf bat, and I do not believe it had anything to do specifically with the subcombines going away.  Things are being nerfed all the time, but that really has no relevance on the topic at hand. 

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Ok, I couldnt resist in contributing more to this thread which I honestly didnt think could go any further down the rabbit hole....</p><p>no bearing on value?????? OMG (how about both monetary and quality - those things got nerfed)</p><p>Here is how you dumb something down - you make it so simple a simplified machine can do it. <span style="color: #ff3300">[WARNING - HUGE REVELEATION ABOUT TO COME BASED ON THIS STATEMENT]</span></p><p>When subcombines were taken out of the game it simplified crafting tremendously. Sure, the crowd that moaned and complained about the complexity got their way and turned crafting into a dumbed down version so everyone could easily do it. Yay! Here are the consequences -</p><ol><li>When something is so easy anyone can easily do it with little to no effort, skill or training - guess what? everyone will. Why did people want it easier in the first place you might ask? Simple grasshopper, people were actually making money by crafting so others that couldnt do it as well thought they were being gypped and wanted a piece of the action too. More products on the market does what? Thats right, it drives prices down. When pricing goes down, profitability follows. To some extent profitability is still largely marginalized by the fuel merchants because players can not make their own fuels (another thread in itself I am sure)</li><li>With this new, much easier, self sufficient methology of crafting the plethora of macros and 3rd party softwares were born and BOOM, we gave birth to the bots. These bots did and still flood the market with wares. In many instances, they have driven competition from the common marketplace or forced them to price at margin profitability, much like WalMart, but I digress.</li><li>With more products in the market, many high end crafts, everyone bought them because they were cheap. now devs had to come up with higher end content you actually had to work for in game. Crafted items were nerfed and better dropped content was born. </li></ol><p>Now, rather than teach people how to use this system that is so simple we literally have children (7-9 yr olds) in-game that are avid crafters, you would rather make it even simpler by taking away some of remaining complexities and provide 3 buttons for all trades to use as counters and you somehow fail to see this as dumbing down??</p><p>Here is a solution - dont use the trade arts, you really dont need them that much anyway if you arent a serious crafter, which apparently is not the crowd we are talking about here anyway. Just push the create button and pretend your in Vegas.</p>

[Off]

We are all entitled to our opinions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As I stated previously, a tutorial is a good idea for new and upcoming crafters.  Removing certain components does not deem it "dumbed down".  The countless hours spent crafting a simple item with the subcombines were not worth the end products at hand as it was (in my opinion).  Things get nerfed all the time, that's nothing new and is no surprise.  The new content added is indeed a bonus.  If there is never anything new to strive for, then what's the point of playing? 

[epyon333]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, I couldnt resist in contributing more to this thread which I honestly didnt think could go any further down the rabbit hole....</p><p>no bearing on value?????? OMG (how about both monetary and quality - those things got nerfed)</p><p>Here is how you dumb something down - you make it so simple a simplified machine can do it. <span style="color: #ff3300">[WARNING - HUGE REVELEATION ABOUT TO COME BASED ON THIS STATEMENT]</span></p><p>When subcombines were taken out of the game it simplified crafting tremendously. Sure, the crowd that moaned and complained about the complexity got their way and turned crafting into a dumbed down version so everyone could easily do it. Yay! Here are the consequences -</p><ol><li>When something is so easy anyone can easily do it with little to no effort, skill or training - guess what? everyone will. Why did people want it easier in the first place you might ask? Simple grasshopper, people were actually making money by crafting so others that couldnt do it as well thought they were being gypped and wanted a piece of the action too. More products on the market does what? Thats right, it drives prices down. When pricing goes down, profitability follows. To some extent profitability is still largely marginalized by the fuel merchants because players can not make their own fuels (another thread in itself I am sure)</li><li>With this new, much easier, self sufficient methology of crafting the plethora of macros and 3rd party softwares were born and BOOM, we gave birth to the bots. These bots did and still flood the market with wares. In many instances, they have driven competition from the common marketplace or forced them to price at margin profitability, much like WalMart, but I digress.</li><li>With more products in the market, many high end crafts, everyone bought them because they were cheap. now devs had to come up with higher end content you actually had to work for in game. Crafted items were nerfed and better dropped content was born. </li></ol><p>Now, rather than teach people how to use this system that is so simple we literally have children (7-9 yr olds) in-game that are avid crafters, you would rather make it even simpler by taking away some of remaining complexities and provide 3 buttons for all trades to use as counters and you somehow fail to see this as dumbing down??</p><p>Here is a solution - dont use the trade arts, you really dont need them that much anyway if you arent a serious crafter, which apparently is not the crowd we are talking about here anyway. Just push the create button and pretend your in Vegas.</p></blockquote>Well writen.  exactly what ive been saying all day.  lol seems everytime im about to give up someone finally starts talking sense.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Off]

I guess we all make sense in our own ways <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[epyon333]

<cite>Offem wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess we all make sense in our own ways <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> hehe true <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TheSpin]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, I couldnt resist in contributing more to this thread which I honestly didnt think could go any further down the rabbit hole....</p><p>no bearing on value?????? OMG (how about both monetary and quality - those things got nerfed)</p><p>Here is how you dumb something down - you make it so simple a simplified machine can do it. <span style="color: #ff3300">[WARNING - HUGE REVELEATION ABOUT TO COME BASED ON THIS STATEMENT]</span></p><p>When subcombines were taken out of the game it simplified crafting tremendously. Sure, the crowd that moaned and complained about the complexity got their way and turned crafting into a dumbed down version so everyone could easily do it. Yay! Here are the consequences -</p><ol><li>When something is so easy anyone can easily do it with little to no effort, skill or training - guess what? everyone will. Why did people want it easier in the first place you might ask? Simple grasshopper, people were actually making money by crafting so others that couldnt do it as well thought they were being gypped and wanted a piece of the action too. More products on the market does what? Thats right, it drives prices down. When pricing goes down, profitability follows. To some extent profitability is still largely marginalized by the fuel merchants because players can not make their own fuels (another thread in itself I am sure)</li><li>With this new, much easier, self sufficient methology of crafting the plethora of macros and 3rd party softwares were born and BOOM, we gave birth to the bots. These bots did and still flood the market with wares. In many instances, they have driven competition from the common marketplace or forced them to price at margin profitability, much like WalMart, but I digress.</li><li>With more products in the market, many high end crafts, everyone bought them because they were cheap. now devs had to come up with higher end content you actually had to work for in game. Crafted items were nerfed and better dropped content was born. </li></ol><p>Now, rather than teach people how to use this system that is so simple we literally have children (7-9 yr olds) in-game that are avid crafters, you would rather make it even simpler by taking away some of remaining complexities and provide 3 buttons for all trades to use as counters and you somehow fail to see this as dumbing down??</p><p>Here is a solution - dont use the trade arts, you really dont need them that much anyway if you arent a serious crafter, which apparently is not the crowd we are talking about here anyway. Just push the create button and pretend your in Vegas.</p></blockquote><p>You're missing the point entirely.  I am a veteran and when I make a new character I open my book to tradeskills, sort by 'type' and then make do with the knowledge book open until I'm level 10, at which point I clear out page 1 with everything except the skills for my primary tradeskill and then fill page 2 with other class skills useable from 10-19.  I then have  2 or 3 pages of completely wasted space with tradeskill abilities I will never use.</p><p>The point is, I have a system that works for me, but a new player may be totally lost at first.</p><p>There is nothing that would be made simpler. For me, the 5 minutes it takes for me to move all the useless junk out of the way would be saved, and more importantly my knowledge book wouldn't be full of junk.  It' just a UI change really.  This idea would not make more people craft.  It would not make it easier for 3rd party software; it would make it easier for new players to learn how to craft.</p><p>I saw someone writing a post that said all he did was hit enter every few seconds because of a macro he made and that he usually watches TV and hits enter over and over.  Obviously it's not the difficulty of the crafting process that would be made simpler; it barely could be made simpler. </p><p>27 skills could all be reduced to 3 skills at level one, and then 9 new skills reduced to 3 new skills at level 10.  They are all the same right now anyway, they just have different pictures.</p>

[Raveller]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, I couldnt resist in contributing more to this thread which I honestly didnt think could go any further down the rabbit hole....</p><p>no bearing on value?????? OMG (how about both monetary and quality - those things got nerfed)</p><p>Here is how you dumb something down - you make it so simple a simplified machine can do it. <span style="color: #ff3300">[WARNING - HUGE REVELEATION ABOUT TO COME BASED ON THIS STATEMENT]</span></p><p>When subcombines were taken out of the game it simplified crafting tremendously. Sure, the crowd that moaned and complained about the complexity got their way and turned crafting into a dumbed down version so everyone could easily do it. Yay! Here are the consequences -</p><ol><li>When something is so easy anyone can easily do it with little to no effort, skill or training - guess what? everyone will. Why did people want it easier in the first place you might ask? Simple grasshopper, people were actually making money by crafting so others that couldnt do it as well thought they were being gypped and wanted a piece of the action too. More products on the market does what? Thats right, it drives prices down. When pricing goes down, profitability follows. To some extent profitability is still largely marginalized by the fuel merchants because players can not make their own fuels (another thread in itself I am sure)</li><li>With this new, much easier, self sufficient methology of crafting the plethora of macros and 3rd party softwares were born and BOOM, we gave birth to the bots. These bots did and still flood the market with wares. In many instances, they have driven competition from the common marketplace or forced them to price at margin profitability, much like WalMart, but I digress.</li><li>With more products in the market, many high end crafts, everyone bought them because they were cheap. now devs had to come up with higher end content you actually had to work for in game. Crafted items were nerfed and better dropped content was born. </li></ol><p>Now, rather than teach people how to use this system that is so simple we literally have children (7-9 yr olds) in-game that are avid crafters, you would rather make it even simpler by taking away some of remaining complexities and provide 3 buttons for all trades to use as counters and you somehow fail to see this as dumbing down??</p><p>Here is a solution - dont use the trade arts, you really dont need them that much anyway if you arent a serious crafter, which apparently is not the crowd we are talking about here anyway. Just push the create button and pretend your in Vegas.</p></blockquote><p>There never was any complexity in crafting with subcombines. You either weren't playing during the dark ages of subcombines (which would mean that everything you post on the subject is a blatant lie), or if you were crafting in the dark ages of subcombines and found them to be complex, you must still be struggling with pre-algebra.</p><p>No one, and I  mean absolutely no one, complained about the complexity of the subcombine crafting model. The complaints were only about the needless, endless, monotonous, mindless, tedious repetition requiring hours of button mashing to make a handful of vendor trash.</p><p>Did you know that there were, literally, young children (4-6 year olds) crafting in game making subcombines during the dark ages of EQ2 crafting? </p>

[Raveller]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Powerpoints was sarcasm but seriously, if crafting gets any more dumbed down I for one will cease to invest any time in it. </p></blockquote> Hooray! Does this also mean that you will cease posting in the Tradeskill Discussion forum?

[Calthine]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Powerpoints was sarcasm but seriously, if crafting gets any more dumbed down I for one will cease to invest any time in it. </p></blockquote> Hooray! Does this also mean that you will cease posting in the Tradeskill Discussion forum?</blockquote> Raveller, you made me get soda on my keyboard!

[Off]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Powerpoints was sarcasm but seriously, if crafting gets any more dumbed down I for one will cease to invest any time in it. </p></blockquote> Hooray! Does this also mean that you will cease posting in the Tradeskill Discussion forum?</blockquote> Raveller, you made me get soda on my keyboard! </blockquote>At least you didn't spew soda outta your nose!! That actually burns too...<img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[mellowknees72]

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>People - it takes 30 minutes to do Tier 1 crafting.</p></blockquote> Finally someone that agrees that T1 crafting is cake.  i was starting to worry.</blockquote><p> It's cake for those of us who've been around for a while...</p><p>It's a PITA for newbies.  And I ain't talkin' about a sandwich.</p>

[Hanokh]

<p>I would like Tier 1 to have durability counters also.  Why have a new crafter frustrated at being unable to make a pristine item?  The only marketing for EQII is the trial download.  Why would anyone crafting with one recipie book, gimped counters, and no tutorial be enticed to pursue crafting?</p><p>Tier 1 (Artisan) should have 6 counters--3 durability and 3 progress.  Tier 2 should add 6 more for each class--Craftsman, Outfitter, and Scholar.  Tier 3 should add 6 more for each subclass.  If possible, the Tier 3 skills should scale with level.  This would make a maximum of 18 counters per character instead of the 27 (!) thrown at a level two crafter.</p><p>The counters should be normalized a bit between sub-classes also.  It is virtually impossible to fail a recipie using sculpting, for instance, the counters are powerful enough to overwhelm the RNG, whereas tailoring can provide a challenge if the RNG goes haywire.  </p>

[sliderhouserules]

*cough* <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=60&topic_id=366846�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...46�</a> *cough* Consolidate, please! She has a full thread for this.

[Liyle]

I think the OP has a good idea. If you are an experienced crafter with the money and raws on hand it takes less than 15 minutes to run the TS quests and gain level 10, then another 15 to level 20. I think my husband's record through level 20 is 22 minutes. So, it would not hurt those who already know what's going on... we are outta there so fast we'd never notice... but it might really help a beginner to have a less confusing progression especially if you wouldn't have to struggle with a Knowledge Book laid out wrong for TS arts (in 4's instead of 3's.) I leveled a new toon on one of the RP servers last night and it was irritating to have parts of buff-sets on two pages. What point is there in setting up hot bars or moving buff icons around in the Book when you are going to be in your primary art in less than 30 minutes anyways?

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Powerpoints was sarcasm but seriously, if crafting gets any more dumbed down I for one will cease to invest any time in it. </p></blockquote> Hooray! Does this also mean that you will cease posting in the Tradeskill Discussion forum?</blockquote> if you promise to get smarter I promise I wont have to explain things to you a hundred times, will that help?

[Calthine]

/raises an eyebrow

[Valdaglerion]

<p>/shrug just call them like I see them. Its a discussion forum. Ill conceived, inconsiderate remarks, unproductive remarks deserve same in kind. I have never said an unkind word to anyone in the forums nor have I ever asked anyone to silence their opinions or imply they leave the forums or game.</p><p>/rant off - moving on</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">[EDIT - actually, I suppose my action was a good indicator to me that it is time to take a break from the forums. It's a game and I should not let someone else's comments dictate my actions. Enjoy all - see ya later~]</span></p>