Epic Quest lines

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Might I make a suggestion - when a quest line has an Epic quest in it, how about requiring the Epic to start it off.</p><p>This was a brilliant thing in the Speak as a Dragon quest. It was doable because forming a raid for people to start a quest ensured everyone was on the same part of the quest and you knew you werent wasting your time with the questline. Once you got the Epic out of the way you could reasonably do the remainder of it either solo or grouped. </p><p>Claymore on the other hand has 2 Epic quest in it. You get to them after you have done the first 20 or so. The time and effort put into those first 20 is completely useless for most everyone not in a raiding guild. </p><p>Scheduling a raid and trying to find 24 people on the same quest 2/3 of the way through a questline is difficult in itself. Hell, that should be the end of the quest right there, "Congrats! You have done what no one not in a raiding guild should be able to do..woot!"</p><p>A little more heads up on the questlines intentions please. For that matter why make Claymore and SoD and other quest lines 26 individual quest. Just make it a singular quest with 26 rewards at various points and list it as Epic...</p><p>At least the majority of us wouldnt waste our time with content we couldnt finish.</p>

[thebunny]

So you would rather the entire Claymore series be blocked by a raid at the very beginning instead?  There are actually some pretty nice rewards in that line from the heroic quests that people who never raid could use.  If the series started off with a raid, the entire series would be useless for anyone that doesn't raid instead of just the last few parts being for raiders only.

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you would rather the entire Claymore series be blocked by a raid at the very beginning instead?  There are actually some pretty nice rewards in that line from the heroic quests that people who never raid could use.  If the series started off with a raid, the entire series would be useless for anyone that doesn't raid instead of just the last few parts being for raiders only.</blockquote><p> Yes. Not a single piece of reward gear from the first 20 replaced anything we already had. Everyone had the anticipation and expectation of finishing the quest to get the fabled claymore items. Instead we found a considerable time sink with a huge road block now.</p><p>The entire series would set an expectation that if you cant raid you cant finish this content. I would have spent that time hitting instances and farming coin rather than working on a quest line I know in all likely hood I wont get to finish. I knew in Speak as a Dragon, there was a raid involved but once you started the quest and got beyond the raid you could continue to finish without additional epic encounters. Expectation was set so that when the opportunity to start the quest arose you jumped in and did it then you could work through on your time table, not others.</p><p>When you look at all quest lines that introduce Epic encounters later, they are often greyed out long before they are done or stay in the journals for 6+ months waiting for the opportunity to finish them. </p><p>Spirits of the Lost, Claymore, Peacock, Darkend Shard, Courts of Fate, Saving Soles, etc....</p><p>All points of contention for many non-raiding players. When content is introduced at a certain level there is an expectation that the content cna be completed at or below that play category (solo/heroic/epic). Solist dont want to run into group encounters anymore than groupers want to run into epic encounters. It disrupts gameplay and inevitably gets the question "well crap, now what"</p><p>Kinda like the exiles who found out at the end of the SoS part of Claymore, they cant go on with it even though they could do the first what, 13 or so quest in SoS. Why not just tell them from the beginning - Exiles are not eligible to complete this quest line, I know the 2 in our primary Claymore group were [Removed for Content] enough they didnt play for 2 weeks after it happened.</p>

[Illmarr]

<p>You can find a lot of discussion on this very topic in this less descriptively titled thread </p><p>http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=369243</p>

[Hellswrath]

<p>For the other questlines, Vald, I agree that there should be a way of showing that this will result in a raid that requires a raiding guild.</p><p>However, SoD DOES give a final reward before that.  Granted, it is only legendary and the mage version is a joke compared to the time sink the quest is, but it is there.  As far as the claymore line, The PoA portion and afterwards rewarded exceptional gear for the KoS expansion.  I can only pray that they make equally decent gear for the tier available to non-raiders during the next expansion.</p>

[Dasein]

Quests like the Peacock Club or Claymore should not switch from solo/heroic to epic at the end. Rather, the solo/heroic quest lines should be enitrely seperate from epic content, and epic quest lines should start with and finish with epic encounters. There should not be any crossover between epic and non-epic content, as the gap betwene raiders and non-raiders is too big to make such content viable.

[thebunny]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes. Not a single piece of reward gear from the first 20 replaced anything we already had. Everyone had the anticipation and expectation of finishing the quest to get the fabled claymore items. Instead we found a considerable time sink with a huge road block now.</blockquote><p>I guess maybe this is another case of a quest that was really nice to do at the time, but has lost its appeal now that everyone is level 70 and there's another expansion out that didn't raise the level cap but instead raised equipment standards.  I remember when I first started working on it (not too long after KoS came out), I couldn't wait to finish one of the early quests for that darn shield, because it was a huge upgrade for me.  I guess now it's really just nothing more than good AA (which means you do get something out of it...).</p><p>But I still say that some of the responsibility has to be on the players.  For one, if you're starting the Claymore line, more than likely you know it ends by killing Tarinax.  Even if you don't, however, if you know that it ends with a fabled reward, then you have to know that it will require a raid.  I don't know of any fabled reward item in the game that doesn't require a raid to complete.</p><p>I'd be all for SOE making it more obvious when it comes to quest lines like that, but aside from that I'd say it's fine the way it is.  Some people may want to do the first parts of the quest line (for AA, rewards, whatever).  They shouldn't be blocked from doing so simply because it finishes with a raid.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes. Not a single piece of reward gear from the first 20 replaced anything we already had. Everyone had the anticipation and expectation of finishing the quest to get the fabled claymore items. Instead we found a considerable time sink with a huge road block now.</blockquote><p>I guess maybe this is another case of a quest that was really nice to do at the time, but has lost its appeal now that everyone is level 70 and there's another expansion out that didn't raise the level cap but instead raised equipment standards.  I remember when I first started working on it (not too long after KoS came out), I couldn't wait to finish one of the early quests for that darn shield, because it was a huge upgrade for me.  I guess now it's really just nothing more than good AA (which means you do get something out of it...).</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">For most players the gear is still an upgrade. For raiders they will always get better chances at raiding dropped than quested rewards.</span></p><p>But I still say that some of the responsibility has to be on the players.  For one, if you're starting the Claymore line, more than likely you know it ends by killing Tarinax.  Even if you don't, however, if you know that it ends with a fabled reward, then you have to know that it will require a raid.  I don't know of any fabled reward item in the game that doesn't require a raid to complete.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Every master spell in the game is fabled and most dont require a raid.</span></p><p>I'd be all for SOE making it more obvious when it comes to quest lines like that, but aside from that I'd say it's fine the way it is.  Some people may want to do the first parts of the quest line (for AA, rewards, whatever).  They shouldn't be blocked from doing so simply because it finishes with a raid.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Not everyone uses websites or walkthroughs. Having the questlines clearing denoted at the beginning is all I am asking. </span></p></blockquote>

[Solaran_X]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Might I make a suggestion - when a quest line has an Epic quest in it, how about requiring the Epic to start it off.</p><p>This was a brilliant thing in the Speak as a Dragon quest. It was doable because forming a raid for people to start a quest ensured everyone was on the same part of the quest and you knew you werent wasting your time with the questline. <b>Once you got the Epic out of the way you could reasonably do the remainder of it either solo or grouped.</b> </p><p>Claymore on the other hand has 2 Epic quest in it. You get to them after you have done the first 20 or so. The time and effort put into those first 20 is completely useless for most everyone not in a raiding guild. </p><p>Scheduling a raid and trying to find 24 people on the same quest 2/3 of the way through a questline is difficult in itself. Hell, that should be the end of the quest right there, "Congrats! You have done what no one not in a raiding guild should be able to do..woot!"</p><p>A little more heads up on the questlines intentions please. For that matter why make Claymore and SoD and other quest lines 26 individual quest. Just make it a singular quest with 26 rewards at various points and list it as Epic...</p><p>At least the majority of us wouldnt waste our time with content we couldnt finish.</p></blockquote>But with the Prismatic line...you're forgetting about the four (x4) raids in Fire and Ice, and then four more (x4) raids in Deception - plus a special one-group instance. And in regards to Claymore...the majority of that quest line is solo- or group-level content. Also, what you fail to mention, is the amount of quality Legendary rewards you get along the way, well before the raid portions of the Claymore line come along. And SoD has two reward items - a Legendary item after all the group content and then a Fabled item after a new (x4) raid instance.

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Valdaglerion wrote: </p><p><i>So this is pretty much the same topic you just started on the same page but w/e... ok I'll play</i></p><blockquote><p>Yes. Not a single piece of reward gear from the first 20 replaced anything we already had. Everyone had the anticipation and expectation of finishing the quest to get the fabled claymore items. Instead we found a considerable time sink with a huge road block now.</p><p><i>So you looked at the end reward of a huge 20+ quest timeline, then you looked at the very first step in the very first quest and it said Solo, so you expected it must all be that easy. Here's a little tip to help you avoid frustration in the future: When looking at an entire timeline or series of quests, don't just look at the final reward... look at each quest and see if you have to do anything you can't or refuse to do. Or at the very least look at the final 2 or 3 quests.</i></p><p>The entire series would set an expectation that if you cant raid you cant finish this content.</p><p><i>No, just because the first quest is geared to solo for example, doesn't mean the next quest it unlocks will also be solo and so on all the way to the end of the timeline. Most people don't assume this, but obviously you do. Why would they tag the very first quest epic if it's clearly soloable? They are individual quests and each one is tagged accordingly.</i></p><p>When you look at all quest lines that introduce Epic encounters later, they are often greyed out long before they are done or stay in the journals for 6+ months waiting for the opportunity to finish them. </p><p><i>This is because those quest lines were designed for the level cap of the time and get obsolete as the level cap raises. Who want's to spend the time and effort at level 50 to find 24 people on the same step of a quest they are on and raid what they have to raid to get a prismatic weapon when they can just roll up to the broker and buy a shiny cobalt sword and be on their way? If you really want to get it done, you meet people, set up a raid and do it. You don't sit around for 6 months hoping maybe someday someone else will put the raid together and you can jump on in at your leisure.</i></p><p>Spirits of the Lost, Claymore, Peacock, Darkend Shard, Courts of Fate, Saving Soles, etc....</p><p>All points of contention for many non-raiding players. When content is introduced at a certain level there is an expectation that the content cna be completed at or below that play category (solo/heroic/epic). Solist dont want to run into group encounters anymore than groupers want to run into epic encounters. It disrupts gameplay and inevitably gets the question "well crap, now what"</p><p><i>If a quest says solo and you have to kill a heroic, ok that sucks I agree there. But when looking at an entire timeline, the very first quest should not be labled epic if it is not epic.</i></p><p>Kinda like the exiles who found out at the end of the SoS part of Claymore, they cant go on with it even though they could do the first what, 13 or so quest in SoS. Why not just tell them from the beginning - Exiles are not eligible to complete this quest line, I know the 2 in our primary Claymore group were [Removed for Content] enough they didnt play for 2 weeks after it happened.</p><p><i>Exile is not designed to be a permanent citizenship (stated by a dev, don't have the link), so they miss out on many benefits of belonging to a city. Can easily fix that by completing the betrayal timeline first. People that exile should expect to miss out on a lot of things and shouldn't be surprised when they find out there is content in the game they can't do until they align with a city.</i></p></blockquote>

[thebunny]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote>Valdaglerion wrote: <p>I guess maybe this is another case of a quest that was really nice to do at the time, but has lost its appeal now that everyone is level 70 and there's another expansion out that didn't raise the level cap but instead raised equipment standards.  I remember when I first started working on it (not too long after KoS came out), I couldn't wait to finish one of the early quests for that darn shield, because it was a huge upgrade for me.  I guess now it's really just nothing more than good AA (which means you do get something out of it...).</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">For most players the gear is still an upgrade. For raiders they will always get better chances at raiding dropped than quested rewards.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p>I mainly made that comment because you had said that none of the gear was an upgrade for you or anyone in your group.  If it's still an upgrade for "most players" like you claim, then I'm totally against having an epic blocker, because all of those non-raiders would then never be able to get access to that gear.</p><blockquote><cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote>Valdaglerion wrote: <p>But I still say that some of the responsibility has to be on the players.  For one, if you're starting the Claymore line, more than likely you know it ends by killing Tarinax.  Even if you don't, however, if you know that it ends with a fabled reward, then you have to know that it will require a raid.  I don't know of any fabled reward item in the game that doesn't require a raid to complete.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Every master spell in the game is fabled and most dont require a raid.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p> I wasn't talking about drops, I was talking about quest rewards - we all know masters are insanely common.  Show me a quest/quest line that gives a fabled reward that doesn't require a raid.</p><blockquote><cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote>Valdaglerion wrote: <p>I'd be all for SOE making it more obvious when it comes to quest lines like that, but aside from that I'd say it's fine the way it is.  Some people may want to do the first parts of the quest line (for AA, rewards, whatever).  They shouldn't be blocked from doing so simply because it finishes with a raid.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000">Not everyone uses websites or walkthroughs. Having the questlines clearing denoted at the beginning is all I am asking. </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p>Actually you're asking for a blocker at the beginning that makes it so that you can only do any of those 20-something quests if you can complete the entry raid.  I'm all for having quest lines denoted in journals, but an entire quest line should not be blocked to non-raiders simply because the last couple of steps require a raid.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>stuff</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Not everyone uses websites or walkthroughs. Having the questlines clearing denoted at the beginning is all I am asking. </span></p><p><b><i><span style="color: #ff3300">If you aren't using a walkthrough, you wouldn't even know about the final reward of the series or even that you have started a series of quests. You would see a random heroic quest that says do this, that, blah blah, kill this heroic mob and then you would go turn in the quest and get your reward and be done. Maybe you notice you just unlocked a new quest which might be solo/heroic/epic</span></i></b></p></blockquote> </blockquote>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>stuff</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Not everyone uses websites or walkthroughs. Having the questlines clearing denoted at the beginning is all I am asking. </span></p><p><b><i><span style="color: #ff3300">If you aren't using a walkthrough, you wouldn't even know about the final reward of the series or even that you have started a series of quests. You would see a random heroic quest that says do this, that, blah blah, kill this heroic mob and then you would go turn in the quest and get your reward and be done. Maybe you notice you just unlocked a new quest which might be solo/heroic/epic</span></i></b></p></blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote><p> Yes, they are linked in game all the time. [Insert Item Here] - what is that from - [Such and Such Quest/Mob]. Where do you start it? yadda yadda yadda.</p><p>Or, you get into a questline by accident and as they keep unlocking you ask about the questline. I had no idea until halfway through Courts of Fate after doing all the Faction Courts in MajDul that you need to do some of the peacock quests.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I mainly made that comment because you had said that none of the gear was an upgrade for you or anyone in your group.  If it's still an upgrade for "most players" like you claim, then I'm totally against having an epic blocker, because all of those non-raiders would then never be able to get access to that gear.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Sorry, I meant the final reward would be an upgrade not the rewards along the way.</span></p><blockquote>thebunny wrote: </blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Valdaglerion wrote: <p>I'd be all for SOE making it more obvious when it comes to quest lines like that, but aside from that I'd say it's fine the way it is.  Some people may want to do the first parts of the quest line (for AA, rewards, whatever).  They shouldn't be blocked from doing so simply because it finishes with a raid.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000">Not everyone uses websites or walkthroughs. Having the questlines clearing denoted at the beginning is all I am asking. </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p>Actually you're asking for a blocker at the beginning that makes it so that you can only do any of those 20-something quests if you can complete the entry raid.  I'm all for having quest lines denoted in journals, but an entire quest line should not be blocked to non-raiders simply because the last couple of steps require a raid.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">Agreed. At least some notation at the beginning that the quest line requires epic encounter/heroic encounters, etc. This at least leaves the flexibility for people who choose to do the first part of the quest knowing they cant finish it.</span></p></blockquote>