Coercers Are Somewhat Lacking [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Andu

07-06-2007, 09:37 PM

Yes it's another whine post. Its also probably too long for most people. However, it is a compilation of the issues Coercers (and in some cases Illusionists too) are currently plagued with and I live in the hope that one dev might stumble accross it and take on board what is said. Coercers are in a bad way at the minute, offering little in groups and raids and can be a pig to solo with. Yes they can kill hard things (eventually) but that doesn't make them fun to play or fun to group with. Here are the main problems as I see them: Charming The class defining ability. Able to coerce all types of mobs and force them to do your bidding. Except: a) You can coerce all types of mobs, so long as they dont do any damage. Mob does some damage? SoE goes round and makes them uncharmable. Every patch it seems another mob type bites the dust until you are left with zones completely filled with uncharmable mobs (e.g. Nek 3, every single raid zone); zones filled with mobs that used to be good but are now uncharmable (most EoF zones, most old world zones, some KoS zones) and some where you can still find the odd useful mob that gives us a glimmer of hope (corpse candles are the "famous" ones). To be clear, charming fighter type mobs is utterly pointless as they put out the dps equivalent to a shammies pet. A total waste of 3 concentration slots. b) Recently a new AA ability was put in to allow Enchanters the ability to charm raid mobs for 6 seconds. Except noone has found even one mob yet (to my knowledge) that can actually be charmed. What exactly was the point of this ability Lockeye - or did you really not know that your colleagues had taken away the ability to charm every single mob in every raid zone? c) It uses 3 concentration slots. Why? To force charming to be used as a means to solo. But its our class defining ability, why should we only be able to use it when soloing? We've already established that the pets available do no damage anyway, so why bother with this restriction. No other classes except Enchanters are forced to make this kind of restricting choice. Make it 1 slot for Enchanters like every other class (including other classes with a charm spell). d) Pets cannot cross zone lines. Want to finish up some quests in easier zones a tier or two below you? Well you'll have to do it by yourself as you can only charm the grey trash around you (which gets nerfed even more when its charmed dont forget). Forget about bringing an appropriately levelled mob with you, they seem to vanish on zoning. e) We have a nice new "feature" where a mob runs straight back to their spawn point the minute the charm breaks, preventing you getting it back. Really handy when you have spent the last ten minutes finding it and bringing it to where you need to be as it is the only mob in the zone worth using. f) Finally, why exactly does charm break anymore? I was all for it during KoS as the risk/reward ratio was there. I could charm those centurions in HoF and they were big and bad [I cannot control my vocabulary], the corresponding risk was that charm dropped regularly and they turned and pounded on your group. Group members didn't mind it either because they could also see the benefit that charming brought to the group. It made the game more fun for all involved. Now with our restricted selection of nerfed weakling pets noone cares if you charm or not, in fact they rather you wouldn't because it slows things down when you have to stop and recharm. All I get to hear now is "is your pet actually doing anything?" as noone can begin to tell if they are making any difference. If there is no reward, why are we still saddled with the risk? The dam things still revert to being heroic ^^^'s when the charm drops and still pound on the group. Only now there is no upside to it. So get rid of the charm frailty and make the thing permanent - or put the rewards back in and get rid of uncharmable mobs. Buffing We're utility right? Buffs galore for those in our groups, we do poor damage compared to mages but thats ok, these buffs are awesome. Or maybe not. I'm going to mainly refer to raids here as that is where buff stacking is most telling but the stuff relates to groups as well. a) Our dps buff is great. So is our power regen and hate transfer (in theory, see below). Well I have to like something still about my class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> b) Our other dps buffs are none existent. So in terms of sticking us in dps groups we suck. Soul destroying to hear the rangers complaining "that they are only getting a dps buff they dont really need" when all they want is Illusory Arm and some procs. Or CoB. How about putting us in a more mage based group as we do have great power regen after all. Unfortunately we have absolutely nothing else, nothing like an Aria, or Synergism, let alone a Time Compression. So we are misplaced there as well. c) So having found out we suck in DPS groups, lets stick us in the tank groups. Except now they are moaning (again) that they want a Dirge. We have no defensive buffs at all (not even an Aggression buff let alone stoneskin) making us fairly useless in a tanking type group compared to our scout equivalent. We also no longer get a sniff at the sixth slot as our hate buff doesn't stack with the Dirges and a hate transfer from a scout is far far better. So unless the group is running MT/Templar/Defiler/Dirge/Swashie/Coercer we are pretty much out of luck there to. d) Our AA buffs are almost useful, just not useful enough to warrant a place in the tank group they were so clearly designed for. Thoughtsnap isn't bad, although the duration is pitiful when considering the recast. Manaward would be great if it actually warded a decent chunk of mana (300 odd is terrible) and their were enough encounters to warrant the AA's in its current state. Tashiana is what it is, not bad although again the duration is too short giving little time to get many spells off to make use of it. The only decent one is Coercive Healing and that is because it can be used whichever group we find ourselves crowbarred into that day. Damage/Combat a) The bulk of our spell damage comes from the reactive procs whenever a mob lands an attack on the tank. However, this has three major problems: * Our ability to damage is completely at the mercy of the tanks avoidance stat and the level of con of the mob he is facing. Put us in a group with a Brawler vs green con mobs and we are lucky if we do any damage at all as he is not being hit! It is ridiculous that we do less damage on easy mobs and more on hard ones. * Coercers are the masters of stunning. It could even be called our class defining ability in the absence of meaningful charming (see above). However, that means that if we stun the mobs preventing them hitting the tank ... we can no longer damage the mobs properly. * All the spell abilities such as +50 mental damage, +30 spell damage etc. do not work on these spells. This is a bug that has not been fixed in seven months. b) We have a load of power drains and a spell line that does damage based on the power consumed by the mob. this has two problems: * Mobs don't use power in any meaningful way. This makes all power drains totally worthless. * If mobs don't use power, how is a spell that causes damage when a mob uses power going to work exactly? That's right, it doesn't! Other Stuff a) Thanks for the ability to root epics. Its completely useless since 23 other people pounding on the mob breaks it in a fraction of a second. Still its something. b) There are still items in game that stun/stifle/daze/whatever epics and they make a real mess of the immunity timers. I hate Raincaller - can't you change this effect. c) Crowd control is pretty worthless as a playstyle except in very small groups. I know this is falling on deaf ears as Lockeye has repeatedly made it clear he hates the concept but please at least try and make some use of it in a few zones. For a brief time at the release of Nizara our class was wanted for what it could do in the same way that a Guardian is wanted to tank. It was nice to actually be invited to groups out of need rather than pity. If you don't want groups to be forced to look for an Enchanter then spread the love around a bit. Give troubadours their CC stuff back (god knows they still need some help too), make Wizzies and other classes mezzes a bit more useful and an actual option while fighting. d) Subjugation. It has always been a bit of a strange one and most people who use it are fairly convinced it is [Removed for Content]. I can have 360 subjugation or 450, it seems to have no effect on the ability to land the spells in question. e) Let us recast our group mezz on mobs! The mezz effect currently prevents the AoE mezz from landing. If this is working as intended, knowing how you hate us controlling crowds (3% at Master 1 is insulting), just say so so we can shutup about it. A Few Suggested Fixes Do with them what you will: a) Make auspex and spell scourge react on every attack, not every hit. Rebalance if you feel the need (although based on our parses from mobs where they do get used up I'd say its not necessary). b) Make Cataclysmic Mind cause damage from power lost by power drains. This makes the spell useful and gives some purpose to the power drains caused by other classes as well as our own. Rebalance the damage/power ratio of the spell to prevent it being overpowered. c) Fix the +spell damage effects and Convulsions. d) Reduce the conc slot for charm to 1 or make it permanent or put back some of the mobs that were worth charming. Or a combination of the 3 but preferably give us back some mobs worth charming and make the ability fun again. e) Allow us to bring pets across zone lines, although I suspect this isn't possible for technical reasons. In which case, have pets go up in level to match that of the Coercer when charmed (eg a lvl 70 Coercer charms a lvl 13 beetle in Commonlands, the beetle becomes lvl 70). f) Make some mobs charmable in every raid zone. g) Fix Subjugation, or if it has no effect on crowd control spells (knowing how you love them so) then just tell us so we can drop it. Thanks for getting this far if you did <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maroger

07-07-2007, 12:40 AM

I hope Lockeye reads this. I had the old-style enchanter in EQ1 and I am struck with how weak coercers are compared to EQ1. You are right our CC sucks and it was great in EQ1 -- I don't understand why our CC got nerfed in this game -- it is as if the person working on the class just hated enchanters and wanted to make sure their EQ1 power was totally destroyed. Or maybe they didn't play that class in EQ1.

Stuge

07-07-2007, 02:53 AM

"e" needs to be corrected, for sure. As for "d" and "f", you may want to check in with the rest of the coercer community on that one. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on those issues and in fact many coercers, myself included, pointedly do not want zone-crossing pets or unbreakable charm.

FlamingDuck

07-07-2007, 03:54 AM

Excellent post, I honestly got nothin really to say, you have posted everything that irks me about coercers, especially charm. Our pets are gimped to virtually to the point of uselessness (particularly tank type pets, totally pointless charming one of those) and I hate the fact most of the most actual useful mobs are bloody uncharmable. Because charm is unrealiable and breaks on you at the most opportune moments its a dumb idea to charm a pet in a group, and it costs 3 [Removed for Content] slots so its not worth it. Charm should be reduced to 2 slots.CC is useless, and only situational. I can only remember once where CC was very useful in the 58 levels I've played as a coercer. That was in Permafrost, killing some Giant named. The class has so much potential to be a blast and sometimes it is, but our gimped abilities make it fall short of a truly fun class like Necromancers or Shadowknight. In a group you're really nothing more then a power battery and a weak DPSer. This class, more then any other at the moment, needs some love, its the most underplayed class for a reason.

Rythen16

07-07-2007, 04:20 AM

Very well written post. And ALL of it is very true. Coercers need some serious looking into by the devs. The only point that I would change is making pets be able to zone with you. They would then have to put code for every single mob into every single zone which would not be a good thing for performance and loading for any character. Also, the fix you suggested is not a good fix. There's no way a mob should change its level to be the same as the coercer. Your example is a good point of this. It would definitely be way overpowered to have a level 13 mob change into a level 70 mob when it is charmed. It would one-hit every single mob in the zone. The one thing that will fix this is to make more mobs charmable. This would solve having to try and find a mob from a different zone to take with you.And I would like to add that our Coercer AA's really, really suck. Suck, suck, suck, suck. Our brother Illusionists get some great AA's that are aimed at power management. We get... what do we get? Crap.

MrFurious99

07-07-2007, 05:34 AM

I've been bringing a coercer up through the levels and while the class is interesting and fun, everyday I find out something new about the current game mechanics that totally gives the class the shaft. The new "feature" of charmed mobs returning to their spawn point upon charm break is downright awful. Not to mention how absolutely gimped charmed pets become. Our 2 main proc/damage spells are pretty much completely useless in raids, and I can count on one hand the number of times in 30 levels that I've seen a mob take damage for using power. The class has so much potential and yet in it's current form it's a sad, sad cry from illusionists, who pretty much do everything better, or get everything better. At least I always have the option to betray.

FlamingDuck

07-07-2007, 07:29 AM

I thought the charmed mob running back to its original spot after it broke was a bug! Can't believe its apparently not. Who in their right mind decided that was a good idea!? Now its [Removed for Content] pointless scouring a zone for the right pet, I have no idea when it's gonna break and have to run back and get it again. o_O Honestly, if this new "feature" is staying in I'm gonna have to retire the coercer, what a bloody shame.

thebunny

07-07-2007, 09:52 AM

<cite>FlamingDuck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought the charmed mob running back to its original spot after it broke was a bug! Can't believe its apparently not. Who in their right mind decided that was a good idea!? Now its [Removed for Content] pointless scouring a zone for the right pet, I have no idea when it's gonna break and have to run back and get it again. o_O Honestly, if this new "feature" is staying in I'm gonna have to retire the coercer, what a bloody shame. </blockquote>If I'm not mistaken, there has been no official word yet on whether it is a bug or was intended. So a lot of people are beginning to assume it was intended.To the OP, excellent post and I hope the devs will read it and take it seriously. I 100% agree with a, b, c, and g. For d, it would be cool if they reduced the conc slots required, but I disagree with a permanent charm, as it would remove any sort of risk from the class. For e, I'm honestly indifferent about zoning with pets, but I don't think level matching is a good idea to be honest, because the pet would either end up being severely gimped or overpowered (think about a level 70 mentored to level 13...). Instead, I'd like to see them roll back some of the "uncharmable" mobs, save for nameds, ring event mobs, and maybe a quest mob here and there. For f, again pretty much indifferent - I'd rather see those conc slots go to more useful buffs.

Moldylocks

07-07-2007, 09:54 AM

<cite>FlamingDuck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought the charmed mob running back to its original spot after it broke was a bug! Can't believe its apparently not. Who in their right mind decided that was a good idea!? Now its [Removed for Content] pointless scouring a zone for the right pet, I have no idea when it's gonna break and have to run back and get it again. o_O Honestly, if this new "feature" is staying in I'm gonna have to retire the coercer, what a bloody shame. </blockquote> Are you SERIOUS?? This was an intended stealth nerf??!Please point me to the direction of where I can see official word on this. I've been so angry they did this to the one class I was REALLY enjoying that I've shelved it until it gets fixed. Charm is the defining feature of this class! If we wanted a stable pet and all the other CC, we would have created Illusionists. People do not need an added reason not to play Coercers.If this nerf was some sort of "fix" for griefing being done by some few unsavory characters then this approach was, imho, a lazy way to do it. Why apply a shotgun nerf to all forms of Charm? This is a heavy-handed way to deal with a problem. It was also an underhanded way to deal with it. Why did you not announce this on the LU 36 notes? Because the villagers would have stormed the castle with pitchforks and burning torches. SO, you slip it in, quietly, and guess what? We still found out, but now that there's the added layer to this luscious Nerf Cake that you tried to be sneaky about its inclusion..well, all I want to do is stop investing in SOE.<img src="/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(edited for typos)

Nodok

07-07-2007, 10:13 AM

Excellent post OP, I completely agree with the majority of this.

Stuge

07-07-2007, 10:48 AM

<cite>Moldylocks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>FlamingDuck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought the charmed mob running back to its original spot after it broke was a bug! Can't believe its apparently not. Who in their right mind decided that was a good idea!? Now its [Removed for Content] pointless scouring a zone for the right pet, I have no idea when it's gonna break and have to run back and get it again. o_O Honestly, if this new "feature" is staying in I'm gonna have to retire the coercer, what a bloody shame. </blockquote> Are you SERIOUS?? This was an intended stealth nerf??!Please point me to the direction of where I can see official word on this. I've been so angry they did this to the one class I was REALLY enjoying that I've shelved it until it gets fixed. </blockquote> Nobody knows for certain yet. There is no official word. Originally it was assumed to be a bug, however the devs' silence on the matter (not even a "Yeah, we hear you&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> has made some people begin to think that it may have been intentional. But no, there has been no official confirmation either way yet. To the rest of the thread: A good chunk of those points are valid, but some of them are way out of bounds. Are some of you seriously advocating cross zone-line charming and permanent charm? Charm would go from "rewarding but risky" to "broken and overpowered" in a heartbeat. No, I like charm the way it works now. They just need to fix this "break->reset bug".

Maroger

07-07-2007, 12:38 PM

Personally I would like to see us get the "shiny bob" summoned pet from EQ1 back. He was a whole lot better than the charmable stuff is now. You are right the illusionist is a better class than the coercer but alas they are a good class not a neutral class. I preferred Freeport so I go stuck with a coercer.

Rythen16

07-07-2007, 04:05 PM

Ah, I see this great post got banished to the coercer forums. Now we will all be "preaching to the choir". Maybe we should post everyday in the much read gameplay forum until our voice is heard. Looking through the coercer boards, I've yet to see a reply from any red name. And the posts need to be informative and not argumentative. Strength in numbers, not crassness.I'm tired of the lack of attention coercers get. I believe this class is a great class if it could live up to its billing by SoE. I love playing a coercer and I believe that we are being kept from doing one of our main class defining abilities. Please dev's give us back our class.

liveja

07-07-2007, 04:24 PM

Stugein@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Moldylocks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>FlamingDuck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought the charmed mob running back to its original spot after it broke was a bug! Can't believe its apparently not. Who in their right mind decided that was a good idea!? Now its [Removed for Content] pointless scouring a zone for the right pet, I have no idea when it's gonna break and have to run back and get it again. o_O Honestly, if this new "feature" is staying in I'm gonna have to retire the coercer, what a bloody shame. </blockquote> Are you SERIOUS?? This was an intended stealth nerf??!Please point me to the direction of where I can see official word on this. I've been so angry they did this to the one class I was REALLY enjoying that I've shelved it until it gets fixed. </blockquote> Nobody knows for certain yet.</blockquote>I don't even play a Coercer, never have, & likely never will. But my jaw dropped almost to my desk when I read about this issue.It seems like it's gotta be a bug. I'd hate to think it was intentional.

Norrsken

07-07-2007, 04:32 PM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stugein@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Moldylocks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>FlamingDuck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought the charmed mob running back to its original spot after it broke was a bug! Can't believe its apparently not. Who in their right mind decided that was a good idea!? Now its [Removed for Content] pointless scouring a zone for the right pet, I have no idea when it's gonna break and have to run back and get it again. o_O Honestly, if this new "feature" is staying in I'm gonna have to retire the coercer, what a bloody shame. </blockquote> Are you SERIOUS?? This was an intended stealth nerf??!Please point me to the direction of where I can see official word on this. I've been so angry they did this to the one class I was REALLY enjoying that I've shelved it until it gets fixed. </blockquote> Nobody knows for certain yet.</blockquote>I don't even play a Coercer, never have, & likely never will. But my jaw dropped almost to my desk when I read about this issue.It seems like it's gotta be a bug. I'd hate to think it was intentional.</blockquote>According to GMs contacted when GU36 went live, apparently it is "working as intended". and given that it is a coercer issue, expect a fix in oh, 6 months, but they are gonna nerf it one more time before they fix it.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-07-2007, 07:09 PM

It's a fundamental change in the way charm can work and they didn't have any patch notes on it. Since it's affecting EVERYONE who can charm (Necros, Druids, Rangers?, anyone that buys the charm dealies), maybe we can hope that something will be done soonish.

liveja

07-07-2007, 08:15 PM

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>According to GMs contacted when GU36 went live, apparently it is "working as intended". </blockquote><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />That's grim.

Norrsken

07-07-2007, 08:31 PM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>According to GMs contacted when GU36 went live, apparently it is "working as intended". </blockquote><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />That's grim. </blockquote>Yes. Now, they have said that a fwe times before about coercers and then backed on their own word. Who here remebers when coercers got hit with the nerf bat so bad that they coudlnt do [Removed for Content] for a fwe months? you know, when a dev saw a coercer have 5 mobs on lockdown while slowly, slowly chipping away at one of thems health? the whole "No class should be that powerful!" deal. Ah well, coercers seem to be the favorite class for the devs to break. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

WasFycksir

07-07-2007, 09:05 PM

Please don't forget about us PVP coercers!Mine is 47, and today in EL I was hammering on a 45/46 pally and so many of my spells (all master/m2) were getting resisted he literally just stood there for a bit, then of course gave me a /laugh. The proceeded to smack me down (mostly MC gear) pretty quickly, using autoattack. I was so shocked/depressed/amazed at this I just didn't even care to fight back anymore. I literally got him down to maybe 80% hp, using about 75% of my power pool. It was frustrating and humiliating.BUT HEY THE FIGHT LASTED LONGER /YAYSOE, but again only cuz the guy had mercy on me. Feel free to look at my gear, name is Cayman on Nagafen, not great stuff I know, but not total crap either.WE NEED SOME HELP DEVS, this is really really bad.Edit- I almost forgot, great post OP, you are dead on and thanks for taking the time to write all that up.

Alaeth

07-07-2007, 09:20 PM

Stugein@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>To the rest of the thread: A good chunk of those points are valid, but some of them are way out of bounds. Are some of you seriously advocating cross zone-line charming and permanent charm? Charm would go from "rewarding but risky" to "broken and overpowered" in a heartbeat. No, I like charm the way it works now. They just need to fix this "break->reset bug". </blockquote>I'm curious why you seem to be so against the idea of pets crossing zone boundaries (the dislike for perma-charm I can completely understand and agree with). The biggest thing to keep in mind, I think, is that the entire concept of zones is a purely technical and game performance-related one; in "reality" there would be no such thing as an invisible wall preventing your charmed pet from going through the mountain pass from Loping Plains to Steamfont, for example. That, for me, is the most compelling reason to support the idea of charmed pets zoning with their masters--because it simply makes more logical sense than the current situation. As for game balance, how is bringing a charmed level 70 pet into a lower-level zone any different from a conjurer, necromancer, or even illusionist summoning their level 70 pet while in a lower-level zone? Granted, certain charmed pets have the potential to out-DPS summoned pets in most situations, but those are fairly few and far between, as well as usually found in out of the way locations. Some people might take the time to drag a corpse flame down from Bonemire before a raid, but even then, how long do you think that pet would last once the raid began? AoEs would flatten it during the first named in any EoF raid zone, if it even lasted through the trash clearing, which doesn't seem like a great effort/reward ratio when you consider the time it would take to shepherd it along through all the various zones to get there. Having said that, I can understand that there are likely technical reasons why charmed pets can't currently zone. A cursory examination of how game data seems to be organized, though, would seem to indicate that mob data is not tied to specific zones, which means that adding mob zoning capabilities would certainly be feasible. Unfortunately, feasible and worthwhile aren't synonymous, and I have a feeling that the coercer population is insignificant enough that adding such a feature would never be perceived as a valuable enough use of limited development time.

FlamingDuck

07-07-2007, 10:28 PM

Saddest part is, I'm betting all of our concerns will be ignored we are a minority class and they don't really care sigh. I hope SOE look into this frankly ridiculous change they made with pets running back to their original spots, which has made coercers even more of a pain then they already were. It's doing no favours for coercer population.

Andu

07-08-2007, 07:11 AM

Depressing this got moved to the Coercer forums, especially when other class specific posts are left alone. Guess they don't like failings clearly put on public display.

Mr. Dawki

07-08-2007, 09:02 AM

completly agree with the OPcoercers are kindof like the little fat kid who gets chosen last in kickballno one wants to pick him but no one is jerk enough to tell him to go home

Ardnahoy

07-08-2007, 12:39 PM

I think they went overboard with the charm change. I fully realize what a huge pain in the [Removed for Content] it was when some jerk coercer planted charmed pets in really annoying spots just to grief others, but I think their solution is a but harsh.They could easily have made it such that the mob resets only if the coercer is removed from the hate list (for example, when the coercer zones, camps, is feigned, or dies). This would effectively eliminate the griefing aspect of charmed pets. It sure sounds more reasonable than the way charm behaves now.

Stuge

07-08-2007, 01:08 PM

<cite>Alaeth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stugein@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>To the rest of the thread: A good chunk of those points are valid, but some of them are way out of bounds. Are some of you seriously advocating cross zone-line charming and permanent charm? Charm would go from "rewarding but risky" to "broken and overpowered" in a heartbeat. No, I like charm the way it works now. They just need to fix this "break->reset bug". </blockquote>I'm curious why you seem to be so against the idea of pets crossing zone boundaries (the dislike for perma-charm I can completely understand and agree with). <snip> </blockquote> The short answer is that it would kill the spice of the hunt. The variety of charming mobs unique to each zone and the challenge of working with different mob classes and learning all their scripts and nuances. If you could bring charmed pets across zone lines with you, then at that point you might as well just replace charm with "Summon: Corpse Candle". And has anyone thought what would happen when the what...dozen or so Corpse Candles or whatever is determined to be the most effective pet get charmed and never returned? Never able to respawn? Never able to be killed by other toons for quests or writs? What do you do? Have the one the coercer charmed respawn a new one after the coercer leaves? What if the coercer goes back? Despawn it and risk hosing someone elses encoutner or risk introducing and out-of-boundary mob spawning glitch? There are simply too many potential abuses and other problems that would be created by allowing us to take mobs out of their zone to make the mechanic feasible.

ShadowMunkie

07-08-2007, 02:39 PM

Okay, I have to agree this seems a little broken, however its not a complete loss. If your fighting a ^^^ and your pet breaks, you don't have to worry about it attacking you. However on the donwnside whenever your pet breaks you can't recharm it. It would be nice if we could use charm to charm ANY(except raidx3+) mobs essence, leave the actually mob, but charm the mobs essence to fight by ourside. It could be a 5 minute summoning instead of perma-summon like illusionist. If you want to change the essence all you would have to do is goto the Coercer trainer pay 1-gold to remove the essence from you, and go out and get a different essence. It would be extremely annoying to have to resummon it every 5 minutes, however atleast it would be better than this, charm and hope and pray it doesn't break and reset. IMO, charm is and will always be broken, because its so unreliable. The above suggestion, would make me happy. Instead of having to go across the entire zone waste 5-6 minutes of travel, just to get to the pet, charm it. Start to travel back to where you need it, hope and pray it doesn't break along the way. Get there with about 20minutes of play left, to kill things. Only to start killing the first mob and your pet breaks and runs away. Personally I don't see why Necromancers, Druids, or Rangers are complaining its not like you can't solo without charm. We literally can't solo without charm, unless we are suiciding. They might as well give use a spell called Suicide Bomb where is nukes everything in the surrounding area for 100k damage, no monster limit, kills the user and be done with it. Side note: Our illusionist counter part gets a perma-pet, and a temp-pet.

Innermirror

07-09-2007, 12:05 AM

I have canceled my subscription today and so I can play EQ2 till July 24th. No matter the devs would express the intent to fix the Coercer's issues, it is the way I can do it to save my love of this class from disappointment. Until they really fix the issues and officially anounce it, I won't come back to the world of EQ2 after subscription ended. I choose not to spend more subscription fees to trap in victimization of and blame for SOE or devs, the dissappointment itself is enough for me to leave. BYE ALL, my dear Coercer friends.

Controlor

07-09-2007, 03:52 AM

<cite>Anduri wrote:</cite><blockquote>(snipped parts i am commenting to) b) Recently a new AA ability was put in to allow Enchanters the ability to charm raid mobs for 6 seconds. Except noone has found even one mob yet (to my knowledge) that can actually be charmed. What exactly was the point of this ability Lockeye - or did you really not know that your colleagues had taken away the ability to charm every single mob in every raid zone? Yah this is annoying. I am a agi wis speced illy (even tho most is agi int of illy community). Makes no sense in the description and doesnt seem to work. Kinda pointless making it usable on epics if it isnt usable on epics >__< c) It uses 3 concentration slots. Why? To force charming to be used as a means to solo. But its our class defining ability, why should we only be able to use it when soloing? We've already established that the pets available do no damage anyway, so why bother with this restriction. No other classes except Enchanters are forced to make this kind of restricting choice. Make it 1 slot for Enchanters like every other class (including other classes with a charm spell). The reason we use 3 conc slots is because enchanters are NOT a primary pet class. If it was then most illys would constantly have a pet out vs 1 synergism or 1 haste. As it is now it becomes a trade off pet or buffs. The same applies to coercer. Pet or Buff. Not both. I am happy with this because i never considered enchanters as a pet class, just a class that can have a pet. Similar to EQ1 we could charm or have the sword and board out (not both). Couldnt control the sword cause we wernt a primary pet class so had no control over a summoned pet. And the charm was there with the riskreward issue behiend. Leave the 3 conc slots its fine. d) Pets cannot cross zone lines. Want to finish up some quests in easier zones a tier or two below you? Well you'll have to do it by yourself as you can only charm the grey trash around you (which gets nerfed even more when its charmed dont forget). Forget about bringing an appropriately levelled mob with you, they seem to vanish on zoning. Charmed pets (even in EQ1) never have been able to cross zones. This goes for all classes that can charm. There is just WAY to many technical problems that arise with it. The only way to have it follow you across "zones" is if the zones are seemless and have no loading between. With EoF zones have become larger than befor so you can bring it in bigger areas (well above ground underground still small). And they also noted in RoK that they will try some seemless zoning to make the zones bigger. But it should never be able to cross a loading wall. f) Finally, why exactly does charm break anymore? I was all for it during KoS as the risk/reward ratio was there. I could charm those centurions in HoF and they were big and bad [I cannot control my vocabulary], the corresponding risk was that charm dropped regularly and they turned and pounded on your group. Group members didn't mind it either because they could also see the benefit that charming brought to the group. It made the game more fun for all involved. Now with our restricted selection of nerfed weakling pets noone cares if you charm or not, in fact they rather you wouldn't because it slows things down when you have to stop and recharm. All I get to hear now is "is your pet actually doing anything?" as noone can begin to tell if they are making any difference. I have no problem with you having a perma charm but it has to be limited (and of corse cant cross zone). It can create some balancing issues if it was a perma charm. But as others have said if you spec enough for it it seems like a perma charm (sept this big bug which i feel extreamly for you all). Buffing c) So having found out we suck in DPS groups, lets stick us in the tank groups. Except now they are moaning (again) that they want a Dirge. We have no defensive buffs at all (not even an Aggression buff let alone stoneskin) making us fairly useless in a tanking type group compared to our scout equivalent. We also no longer get a sniff at the sixth slot as our hate buff doesn't stack with the Dirges and a hate transfer from a scout is far far better. So unless the group is running MT/Templar/Defiler/Dirge/Swashie/Coercer we are pretty much out of luck there to. Well first off i will give you that coercers are more pigeon holed into one group vs illys. Where as illys can go in any group coercers are better for meleetank groups. You should look at the offical word that there is a hate cap as a benefit to you all. Your hate as it is is higher % than dirge (theirs just gives +aggression). However yours does not take a conc slot dirges does. If you throw a dirge and coercer in the groups the dirge can free up a conc slot to add other benefits to the tank group. When we get our coercer on we run with dirgecoercer in MT group. Also you work well in OT group because there arnt many dirges running around either. The tank group slot will always be given to a coercer over an illy if your comparing the 2 enchanters. Think your just making it out worse than it is. But again i agree you dont have a place in mage group and only limited place in melee group. Heck most raids dont run with more than 3 of the enchanter types anyways. d) Our AA buffs are almost useful, just not useful enough to warrant a place in the tank group they were so clearly designed for. Thoughtsnap isn't bad, although the duration is pitiful when considering the recast. Manaward would be great if it actually warded a decent chunk of mana (300 odd is terrible) and their were enough encounters to warrant the AA's in its current state. Tashiana is what it is, not bad although again the duration is too short giving little time to get many spells off to make use of it. The only decent one is Coercive Healing and that is because it can be used whichever group we find ourselves crowbarred into that day. Thought snap is great when working properly (was a time if i am not mistaken wasnt working properly). The only time thought snap is bad for the MT or OT group is when you are running 2 tanks. This is rare (would be palading MT zerker being amended). I see that spell more as a "ooh [Removed for Content]" spell. Where it can keep agro on the tank while there is a DPS spike (mana burn or life burn). Would also help if MT goes down and your in OT group to pop agro to the OT. And coercive healing rocks. Tash is a good spell to use befor landing your actual debuffs on (thats its main purpose that i see). It drastically reduces the resists of your debuffs and thats a benefit. So 3 choices really. Where as illys if your NOT TCIA speced your pretty much yelled at by RL to switch specs. Damage/Combat a) The bulk of our spell damage comes from the reactive procs whenever a mob lands an attack on the tank. However, this has three major problems: * Our ability to damage is completely at the mercy of the tanks avoidance stat and the level of con of the mob he is facing. Put us in a group with a Brawler vs green con mobs and we are lucky if we do any damage at all as he is not being hit! It is ridiculous that we do less damage on easy mobs and more on hard ones. * Coercers are the masters of stunning. It could even be called our class defining ability in the absence of meaningful charming (see above). However, that means that if we stun the mobs preventing them hitting the tank ... we can no longer damage the mobs properly. * All the spell abilities such as +50 mental damage, +30 spell damage etc. do not work on these spells. This is a bug that has not been fixed in seven months. b) We have a load of power drains and a spell line that does damage based on the power consumed by the mob. this has two problems: * Mobs don't use power in any meaningful way. This makes all power drains totally worthless. * If mobs don't use power, how is a spell that causes damage when a mob uses power going to work exactly? That's right, it doesn't! Yah everything said here does bite. I am reallllly sorry that you have to go through this as a class and that you contradict your own spells. They really should make your spells proc off any dmg removedused. This would allow both illys and coercers proc it (while the coercer should receive the DPS boost with ACT for it). Would give all those little spells that remove pr some extra USE for both enchanters. Stead of being a spell thats is like hey i use it for this one purpose and it has this extra useless side effect. Other Stuff a) Thanks for the ability to root epics. Its completely useless since 23 other people pounding on the mob breaks it in a fraction of a second. Still its something. If used properly the root can help the raid significantly now that you can root epics. Yes if you root a mob that everyone is beating on it will break. But there are instances that it is extreamly useful. The same argument of our root working on epics can be made about mez working on epics. Yah we can mez but we hardly ever do. But at least we have the OPTION to. There is a few situations where i can think of using root to benefir the raid. c) Crowd control is pretty worthless as a playstyle except in very small groups. I know this is falling on deaf ears as Lockeye has repeatedly made it clear he hates the concept but please at least try and make some use of it in a few zones. For a brief time at the release of Nizara our class was wanted for what it could do in the same way that a Guardian is wanted to tank. It was nice to actually be invited to groups out of need rather than pity. If you don't want groups to be forced to look for an Enchanter then spread the love around a bit. Give troubadours their CC stuff back (god knows they still need some help too), make Wizzies and other classes mezzes a bit more useful and an actual option while fighting. Yah kinda sucks but if they beefed up the mez abilities of other classes (which traditionally didnt have mez) this can unbalance things and cause conflicts. Specially while soloing. I can see wizards loving this as they can now take on multi groups while soloing and faster than the enchanters. Bad bad thing it is. e) Let us recast our group mezz on mobs! The mezz effect currently prevents the AoE mezz from landing. If this is working as intended, knowing how you hate us controlling crowds (3% at Master 1 is insulting), just say so so we can shutup about it. This IS working as intended. Casting your aoe mez prevents it from being subject to ALL aoes including its own remezing. There was once a time when aoe mez wasnt immune to aoes and any class with blue or green aoes would break it and this upset enchanters (as most classes have at least 1 aoe). So they made it immune to aoes like primary mez. There are ways around this mind you. 1 you can just aoe mez then go around and single mez the entire encounter (most times the encounter isnt more than 4 so you can easily mez 4 for extended period). 2 Do a little aoe mez trick (hard to do but can get with practice), and this involves timing. Basically time the breaking of mez to the casting so that mez drops about .5 seconds befor it lands again the mob will twitch and norm its short enough to not be hit by an aoe dot. The other way is to cancle aoe mez right befor it lands so that they twitch and get mezed again in a short time. 3 you can use aoe mez to lock 2 mobs down with 1 spell. Since directly targeting the mob effects mez. If you target a mob cast your aoe mez then hit tab to switch targets (or manually switch) to another one when mez lands both the original target and 2nd target will be mezed. Again the way it is now IS how it is INTENDED. A Few Suggested Fixes Basically agree with everything you sugested except the mob crossing zones. </blockquote>

chily

07-09-2007, 08:29 AM

<cite>Anduri wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes it's another whine post. Yup looks like. Its also probably too long for most people. However, it is a compilation of the issues Coercers (and in some cases Illusionists too) are currently plagued with and I live in the hope that one dev might stumble accross it and take on board what is said. Coercers are in a bad way at the minute, offering little in groups and raids and can be a pig to solo with. Yes they can kill hard things (eventually) but that doesn't make them fun to play or fun to group with. Here are the main problems as I see them: Charming The class defining ability. Able to coerce all types of mobs and force them to do your bidding. Except: a) You can coerce all types of mobs, so long as they dont do any damage. Many nice mobs do some nice dmg, only coz they don't nuke for 6k doesn't mean they make no dmg. Mob does some damage? SoE goes round and makes them uncharmable. Uncharmable mobs are mostly part of a ring event. Every patch it seems another mob type bites the dust until you are left with zones completely filled with uncharmable mobs (e.g. Nek 3, every single raid zone); zones filled with mobs that used to be good but are now uncharmable (most EoF zones, most old world zones, some KoS zones) and some where you can still find the odd useful mob that gives us a glimmer of hope (corpse candles are the "famous" ones). To be clear, charming fighter type mobs is utterly pointless as they put out the dps equivalent to a shammies pet. A total waste of 3 concentration slots. b) Recently a new AA ability was put in to allow Enchanters the ability to charm raid mobs for 6 seconds. Except noone has found even one mob yet (to my knowledge) that can actually be charmed. What exactly was the point of this ability Lockeye - or did you really not know that your colleagues had taken away the ability to charm every single mob in every raid zone? Charming in raids is to risky for me. hate dec and so on has more use. the Prob is not the charm but when it breaks. c) It uses 3 concentration slots. Why? To force charming to be used as a means to solo. But its our class defining ability, why should we only be able to use it when soloing? We've already established that the pets available do no damage anyway, so why bother with this restriction. No other classes except Enchanters are forced to make this kind of restricting choice. Make it 1 slot for Enchanters like every other class (including other classes with a charm spell). Atm you should buff for solo .. Int/agi buff, charm and eiter dps on pet or hate dec on you. For what would you need the other slots while solo?? d) Pets cannot cross zone lines. Want to finish up some quests in easier zones a tier or two below you? Well you'll have to do it by yourself as you can only charm the grey trash around you (which gets nerfed even more when its charmed dont forget). Forget about bringing an appropriately levelled mob with you, they seem to vanish on zoning. Glad that, that is not poss. e) We have a nice new "feature" where a mob runs straight back to their spawn point the minute the charm breaks, preventing you getting it back. Really handy when you have spent the last ten minutes finding it and bringing it to where you need to be as it is the only mob in the zone worth using. That's annyoing yup f) Finally, why exactly does charm break anymore? I was all for it during KoS as the risk/reward ratio was there. I could charm those centurions in HoF and they were big and bad [I cannot control my vocabulary], the corresponding risk was that charm dropped regularly and they turned and pounded on your group. Group members didn't mind it either because they could also see the benefit that charming brought to the group. It made the game more fun for all involved. Now with our restricted selection of nerfed weakling pets noone cares if you charm or not, in fact they rather you wouldn't because it slows things down when you have to stop and recharm. All I get to hear now is "is your pet actually doing anything?" as noone can begin to tell if they are making any difference. Infiltrators are better in Hof If there is no reward, why are we still saddled with the risk? The dam things still revert to being heroic ^^^'s when the charm drops and still pound on the group. Only now there is no upside to it. So get rid of the charm frailty and make the thing permanent - or put the rewards back in and get rid of uncharmable mobs. Buffing We're utility right? Buffs galore for those in our groups, we do poor damage compared to mages but thats ok, these buffs are awesome. Or maybe not. I'm going to mainly refer to raids here as that is where buff stacking is most telling but the stuff relates to groups as well. a) Our dps buff is great. So is our power regen and hate transfer (in theory, see below). Well I have to like something still about my class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You forgot hate dec <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> b) Our other dps buffs are none existent. So in terms of sticking us in dps groups we suck. Soul destroying to hear the rangers complaining "that they are only getting a dps buff they dont really need" when all they want is Illusory Arm and some procs. Or CoB. How about putting us in a more mage based group as we do have great power regen after all. Unfortunately we have absolutely nothing else, nothing like an Aria, or Synergism, let alone a Time Compression. So we are misplaced there as well.get grouped with a trouba. Wizzi's remind me fast when they don't got my hate dec on em. c) So having found out we suck in DPS groups, lets stick us in the tank groups. Except now they are moaning (again) that they want a Dirge. We have no defensive buffs at all (not even an Aggression buff let alone stoneskin) making us fairly useless in a tanking type group compared to our scout equivalent. We also no longer get a sniff at the sixth slot as our hate buff doesn't stack with the Dirges and a hate transfer from a scout is far far better. So unless the group is running MT/Templar/Defiler/Dirge/Swashie/Coercer we are pretty much out of luck there to. d) Our AA buffs are almost useful, just not useful enough to warrant a place in the tank group they were so clearly designed for. Thoughtsnap isn't bad, although the duration is pitiful when considering the recast. Manaward would be great if it actually warded a decent chunk of mana (300 odd is terrible) and their were enough encounters to warrant the AA's in its current state. Tashiana is what it is, not bad although again the duration is too short giving little time to get many spells off to make use of it. The only decent one is Coercive Healing and that is because it can be used whichever group we find ourselves crowbarred into that day.300 power sounds litte maybe, but let's say the tank has 6k power and you ward for 300 that are 5% ! the half of manaflow. so 300 isn't terrible. Damage/Combat a) The bulk of our spell damage comes from the reactive procs whenever a mob lands an attack on the tank. However, this has three major problems: * Our ability to damage is completely at the mercy of the tanks avoidance stat and the level of con of the mob he is facing. Put us in a group with a Brawler vs green con mobs and we are lucky if we do any damage at all as he is not being hit! It is ridiculous that we do less damage on easy mobs and more on hard ones. start speed casting i did 1k dps on the x2 for raincaller hq and by reactives hardly proced * Coercers are the masters of stunning. It could even be called our class defining ability in the absence of meaningful charming (see above). However, that means that if we stun the mobs preventing them hitting the tank ... we can no longer damage the mobs properly.and ... ? that is called CC m8 * All the spell abilities such as +50 mental damage, +30 spell damage etc. do not work on these spells. This is a bug that has not been fixed in seven months.They don't add +50 dmg .. they add up to 50 Dmg b) We have a load of power drains and a spell line that does damage based on the power consumed by the mob. this has two problems: * Mobs don't use power in any meaningful way. This makes all power drains totally worthless.Yes coz Power drain got nerfed some time ago. Mobs time power use now more and we drained them to fast out so epic's got a larger Power pool. * If mobs don't use power, how is a spell that causes damage when a mob uses power going to work exactly? That's right, it doesn't!The mind line works the only "prob" is that the mobs only need like 100power for each spell they use, which makes a hit like 500 dmg Other Stuff a) Thanks for the ability to root epics. Its completely useless since 23 other people pounding on the mob breaks it in a fraction of a second. Still its something.Can be nice at some mobs. only coz you have the ability it doesn't mean you have to use it in every fight and or zone. Or do you memwipe in every fight? b) There are still items in game that stun/stifle/daze/whatever epics and they make a real mess of the immunity timers. I hate Raincaller - can't you change this effect.Aww, tell em to get a better bow <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> c) Crowd control is pretty worthless as a playstyle except in very small groups. I know this is falling on deaf ears as Lockeye has repeatedly made it clear he hates the concept but please at least try and make some use of it in a few zones. For a brief time at the release of Nizara our class was wanted for what it could do in the same way that a Guardian is wanted to tank. It was nice to actually be invited to groups out of need rather than pity. If you don't want groups to be forced to look for an Enchanter then spread the love around a bit. Give troubadours their CC stuff back (god knows they still need some help too), make Wizzies and other classes mezzes a bit more useful and an actual option while fighting.Stun, stifle and daze is CC too. d) Subjugation. It has always been a bit of a strange one and most people who use it are fairly convinced it is [Removed for Content]. I can have 360 subjugation or 450, it seems to have no effect on the ability to land the spells in question.I see a diff if i use 350 or 380 e) Let us recast our group mezz on mobs! The mezz effect currently prevents the AoE mezz from landing. If this is working as intended, knowing how you hate us controlling crowds (3% at Master 1 is insulting), just say so so we can shutup about it.Just time it then you get it A Few Suggested Fixes Do with them what you will: a) Make auspex and spell scourge react on every attack, not every hit. Rebalance if you feel the need (although based on our parses from mobs where they do get used up I'd say its not necessary).With all the haste debuffs and so on the mobs still hit a lot b) Make Cataclysmic Mind cause damage from power lost by power drains. This makes the spell useful and gives some purpose to the power drains caused by other classes as well as our own. Rebalance the damage/power ratio of the spell to prevent it being overpowered.na, just inc the poweruse of the mobs by like 100% .. instead of 100 power use 200 power ... or just inc it by 50%c) Fix the +spell damage effects and Convulsions. can be nice yup d) Reduce the conc slot for charm to 1 or make it permanent or put back some of the mobs that were worth charming. Or a combination of the 3 but preferably give us back some mobs worth charming and make the ability fun again. I don't hate a prob with 3 slots, the others have to watch aggro like everone else. e) Allow us to bring pets across zone lines, although I suspect this isn't possible for technical reasons. In which case, have pets go up in level to match that of the Coercer when charmed (eg a lvl 70 Coercer charms a lvl 13 beetle in Commonlands, the beetle becomes lvl 70). ... lol ... f) Make some mobs charmable in every raid zone.No thx, no need for us. speed casters don't have time to recharm or what ever epics in raids if they wanna dps. g) Fix Subjugation, or if it has no effect on crowd control spells (knowing how you love them so) then just tell us so we can drop it.It has, it effect's charmed mobs dmg too Thanks for getting this far if you did <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> np</blockquote>

Nanyea

07-09-2007, 09:08 AM

I'd like to add my support to the OP in almost everything said

Aranieq

07-09-2007, 10:08 AM

I know this wont make me very popular but all thought I think there are great points and a lot of very constructive ideas to improve the class there are many things I do not agree with in this thread. I do not feel charm is our class defining ability.. it might be assumed that because so few classes charm but a necro can do it just about as well as us if they want. Coercers are masters of control yes matched only by the illusionist, but charm does not define the coercer. IMO it is the stun and aggro manipulation and power management ability of the coerce that makes them indispensable for groups and raids. There is not a class in the game that can stun/daze/stiffle combined as well as us. Illusionist have us on mezzing and they have stun stifle power as well but we are head and shoulders in the stun department. Stuns are nothing to be laughed at. Have fun in MMIS without a coercer. Yeah an illusionist can do it but not as well. Try doing mem-wiping or aggro slipping mobs without a coercer. Thought-snap can be a raid saver. Harm link the difference between a warlock pushing 1k dps and 2k dps. As for dps being our only only buff concerns, Coercive healing is drooled over by the Shaman. These of course pigeonhole us in the MT group and some prefer that... but the nature of the coercer is a support class. Tanks prefer dps > haste due to riposte damage. It would be nice to have a one target only group only dps boosting spell similar to time comp or illusionary arm. We could benefit from the ability to boost the MT dps/aggro. Perhaps adding a DS or reactive taunt component to our Enraging Demeanor line. I think the OP has great points on his suggestions to improve the class and bring a little more class balancing without a doubt before I get lynched. But I do not feel the Coercer is useless nor defined by charm. The idea to turn cataclysmic mind into a reactive based on power drained from the mob rather than power used !! Thats brilliant IMO. But I have no desire to carry a charmed pet across zone lines. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game either. The idea of seeing a ravasect chilling in the wailing caves or a corpse candle hanging out in nektulos... That IMO would take away from the fantasy of the game. What would you do with all these misplaced mobs once they broke? And the idea of an unbreakable charm.. I am on the fence. Many people equate this idea to the old Dire Charm of EQ1. But people keep forgetting that spell was only optimum in very strict cases because of the level restriction on the spell. Most Enchanters would use CoD (call of Druzilli) over their DC because the risk of death was outweighed by its dps reward. Although the idea of a recall charm i read in a different thread was not a bad idea. The potential to recall the mental image of a previously charmed pet for an "unbreakable" time would be interesting. This could have potential in raid zones if the charmed mob was of less HP or so because it is a mental projection rather than the actual mob. Perhaps a dumb fire pet to match every other mage out there... coercers are the only ones without a dumb fire. A reason to actually shed thought stones as well.

Controlor

07-09-2007, 02:29 PM

To poster above: Yah the dumbfire thing i found odd. Even us Illys have one.... Odd very odd they didnt give you guys once shrug. Ooh and the stun i know your stuns are better than illys (because your eof beefs up your stuns). This is the exact same reason our mezes are better than yours (cause eof beefs it up). But please dont look down on an illys ability to stunstifledaze. I can lock a heroic down with a combo for 23 seconds of not taking dmg. And i can time my stunstifledaze on epics to triger one after the other for a continuious effect (forgot duration not in game to note). So Illys still get good stun combo ability just not as long as you guys (least i dont think i dont know the duration of your stun combo vs a heroic mob).

Blumfield

07-09-2007, 04:43 PM

Power drains and mana reactives need to be fixed or replaced; they're worthless. That seems like a no-brainer.As for the other complaints, meh. I've got sever hate + thought snap. At least as far as raiding goes, my coercer feels balanced against the other classes.But please, don't let me interrupt the complaint-fest. Continue!Your buddy,Schmutzen of Vox

Aranieq

07-09-2007, 05:26 PM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>To poster above: Yah the dumbfire thing i found odd. Even us Illys have one.... Odd very odd they didnt give you guys once shrug. Ooh and the stun i know your stuns are better than illys (because your eof beefs up your stuns). This is the exact same reason our mezes are better than yours (cause eof beefs it up). But please dont look down on an illys ability to stunstifledaze. I can lock a heroic down with a combo for 23 seconds of not taking dmg. And i can time my stunstifledaze on epics to triger one after the other for a continuious effect (forgot duration not in game to note). So Illys still get good stun combo ability just not as long as you guys (least i dont think i dont know the duration of your stun combo vs a heroic mob). </blockquote> I would never look down on anything Illy, my guild-mate would likely hunt me down and strip the time comp from my cold dead clutches. This is why I say Coercers share the crowd control master titles with Illusionist. Illy having better mezz power, us better stun power. No way does that mean an illy can't hold their own.

mcavellero

07-09-2007, 07:25 PM

"IMO it is the stun and aggro manipulation and power management ability of the coerce that makes them indispensable for groups and raids. " Yes, stuns, mezzes, stifles mainly define our class but you see everything is reduced on raids to a point where it become worthless... ***+Hate Gain*** why pop a coercer in the MT group when dirges not only get hate gain, they also increase parry, and also provide stone skin. There are some nice abilities that we get like increase heals by 25%...but come on...why not just pop a healer in there that could provide buffs that actually stack? ***Hate decrease***, it's only at 23% or something like that at master...troubies decrease hate by 40%...hello? **Mem Wipe** Em Vyemm can be pet pulled and monk pulled to split the encounter..ok I just lost my value in labs raids. What else...power regen? Illus, Dirges, Troubs also provide power regen...coercer might provide more but does it a big deal? ***Stuns/Stifles***On raids they are reduced to what .2sec, .1 sec? Give me a break...just take it away please. And now certain mobs cannot be charmed, cannot be stunned, cannot be mezzed(unrest...) O yeah and we can't DPS! See the problem IMO is that other people do what coercers do and do it a whole lot better. The one spot where they were suppose to fit in was the MT group however there a far better reasons to pop another dirge and healer in there than have a coercer. To be quite blunt, it pains me to say this...we are just extra baggage...

Andu

07-10-2007, 01:54 PM

I had to respond to a few of Aranieq's points: Have fun in MMIS without a coercer. Yeah an illusionist can do it but not as well.This isn't quite true, I thought the same until I actually compared the spells to co-ordinate the stun/stifle on the Cheroons. They are identical. Try doing mem-wiping or aggro slipping mobs without a coercer. Thought-snap can be a raid saver. Harm link the difference between a warlock pushing 1k dps and 2k dps. As for dps being our only only buff concerns, Coercive healing is drooled over by the Shaman. These of course pigeonhole us in the MT group and some prefer that... but the nature of the coercer is a support class. Tanks prefer dps > haste due to riposte damage. It would be nice to have a one target only group only dps boosting spell similar to time comp or illusionary arm. We could benefit from the ability to boost the MT dps/aggro. Perhaps adding a DS or reactive taunt component to our Enraging Demeanor line.The point I was trying to make is that the bulk of Coercers don't get to see the MT group anymore on a regular basis. The most common setup now is Guardian, Templar, Defiler, Warden, Dirge, Swashbuckler. We only get to go in when the Warden is dropped and that is only usually on the trash.This renders half of our best stuff worthless. As you say (and I generally agreed with) the concept behing thoughtsnap is great, its just not much of a life saver from a group with either no fighter or one with little or no buffs on.Also, Harm link is the difference between 1k and 1,270 not 2k, but Im just being picky now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Really, what I was looking for is some defensive buffs so we can at least come close to Dirges or they look at a sensible way for us to stack hate buffs (and not the 17%/17% thing they proposed). I think the OP has great points on his suggestions to improve the class and bring a little more class balancing without a doubt before I get lynched. But I do not feel the Coercer is useless nor defined by charm. The idea to turn cataclysmic mind into a reactive based on power drained from the mob rather than power used !! Thats brilliant IMO. But I have no desire to carry a charmed pet across zone lines. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game either. The idea of seeing a ravasect chilling in the wailing caves or a corpse candle hanging out in nektulos... That IMO would take away from the fantasy of the game.Not quite sure why, in some ways it would just add to the mystique of the Coercer. However, it would never happen for technical reasons. The point I was really trying to make was why can a necro, conjuror or even illusionist go back 20 levels or so and finsh up a grey questwith a level 70 pet whereas we get to charm grey dross which serves no real purpose. I'm sick of wasting time in noob zones doing stuff that a decent pet would chew through. Its compounded by the whole reactive thing and the fact the grey mobs cant hit us. So we cant even damage them properly that way either. And the idea of an unbreakable charm.. I am on the fence. Many people equate this idea to the old Dire Charm of EQ1. But people keep forgetting that spell was only optimum in very strict cases because of the level restriction on the spell. Most Enchanters would use CoD (call of Druzilli) over their DC because the risk of death was outweighed by its dps reward.My point again. Risk vs Reward. Like I said in my original post, I was all for charm breaking back in KoS when we had decent pets. Now we don't the reward has gone, so I suggested we should also lose the risk. However what I really would like to see is some decent pets again, not perma-charm. Charm breaking+decent pets = Good. I just don't see that happening. The potential to recall the mental image of a previously charmed pet for an "unbreakable" time would be interesting. This could have potential in raid zones if the charmed mob was of less HP or so because it is a mental projection rather than the actual mob. Perhaps a dumb fire pet to match every other mage out there... coercers are the only ones without a dumb fire. A reason to actually shed thought stones as well. Nice idea that.

Aradia

07-11-2007, 01:17 AM

I agree with everything the OP said. (I don't really care about zoning with a mob although it sounds fun) There were so many good points. I feel like I really don't have a "job" on a raid anymore. Pretty much someone else can do everything I can do better. That's depressing. And someone said something about stuns... aren't almost all epic mobs immune to stuns/stiffles/dazes etc for like 2 min after they've been hit with them? So someone smacks it with RainCaller and my stun is pointless for 2 min. I might get to use it effectively once or twice each mob. As for grouping though the stuns are incredible. Keeping mobs stun locked until they're dead makes me happy, I'm sure they'll nerf this small joy soon. I'm totally frustrated with the way our damage works. Even when I spec'd AGI/INT I couldn't get my parse a whole lot higher. I keep hearing our place in the MT group is better given to a dirge and I'm not really DPS, so what the hell am I? I like doing DPS but if that's what I wanted to do in this game I would have made a mage DPS class, which apparently an illusionist. *shakes head sadly Oh and using hate buff on a scout? They only transfer like 27% of the hate so you give them 48% more, they still only xfer 27%. I guess that's ok your raid actually put you in the MT group with a dirge AND and assassin. I became an enchanter for utility. Charm/Mez/Stun/Buff. I want to be versatile and yet still have a "job" on a raid, not just a pseudo DPS.

Aranieq

07-11-2007, 09:55 AM

<cite>Aradia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with everything the OP said. (I don't really care about zoning with a mob although it sounds fun) There were so many good points. I feel like I really don't have a "job" on a raid anymore. Pretty much someone else can do everything I can do better. That's depressing. And someone said something about stuns... aren't almost all epic mobs immune to stuns/stiffles/dazes etc for like 2 min after they've been hit with them? So someone smacks it with RainCaller and my stun is pointless for 2 min. I might get to use it effectively once or twice each mob. As for grouping though the stuns are incredible. Keeping mobs stun locked until they're dead makes me happy, I'm sure they'll nerf this small joy soon. tell that ranger take rain caller off it's the chanters job to stun not the scouts. Your stuns are more efficient and better control than the rain caller. It's like the monk playing main healer. It makes me nuts when someone is triggering the stun timer non-chanter you gotta keep saying it over and over till they take the thing out. You can stun epics a lot more, with raid coordination you can make use of the immunity timers more efficiently that 1 every 2 mins or so. No one has as many stuns at their disposal as coercer. at any given time when the RL calls stun now you have something up. An illusionist does not, this was my point to the coercer > illusionist stun for raid along with how many long duration stuns coercer has. Just casting stroke every time it's up significantly reduces the mobs danger to the raid. It seems like something so small because it's not horribly efficient dps. But its a fast cast interrupt and fast refresh. everyone else has an interrupt too, but this one is fast and reliable. I'm totally frustrated with the way our damage works. Even when I spec'd AGI/INT I couldn't get my parse a whole lot higher. I keep hearing our place in the MT group is better given to a dirge and I'm not really DPS, so what the hell am I? I like doing DPS but if that's what I wanted to do in this game I would have made a mage DPS class, which apparently an illusionist. *shakes head sadly The mentality of the times seems to be dirge > coercer for MT. We do not use a dirge in mt group unless they are stacked up or its a named that need defense. It's not because dirges are [Removed for Content], just we prefer buff our top 5 melee and off tank with the dirge and boost our dps than to boost the guardian tank when he doesn't need it. Our coercer spec'd to be a MT coercer and thats where he plays unless the situation calls to need the dirge specifically. However this is not the common practice these days. Often the coercer is getting plopped in the ST/off tank group with never a chance of the troub group while an illly on the raid. The mentality to boost the tank as much as possible is great, but not at the cost of over-all balance IMO. ie if the tanks does not need the dirge's defense & attack the coercer is better for power management, aggro management, and coercive healing, allowing for a higher raid dps not just tank dps(unless the tank needs it and raid is already far higher than him). Then again our MT assassin will take top 2 parse on his own most non 3+ mob fights, so he does not need a dirge to boost him. Coercers have been feeling left out on the dps side for as long as the class has been around. Some will come and post great dps and we can do it, but not built for it. The nature of channel and the need for power management on the group negates what gives us our biggest dps boost, volatility and perpetuality. That quick cast makes great cures and on the spot control but that directly reduces dps. Coercer is a contradiction on every level. You need 5+ peices of proc gear and/or Synergism to really get the feel of a dps player as coercer. It gets better as you get more proc gear but it takes time and that stretch is very disheartening when you and your RL doesn't know where you fit in. I'd say coercers are not represented well not "lacking". People don't know exactly what we do even this day in age.. they have ideas and go on what the top guilds are trickling down for their raid builds. Not every raid is built like them, a coercer is the most versatile player in the game and its a boon and a curse. You can't just make a cookie cutter coercer and say do 2k dps right out of the gate, and keep my power up and do it from the off tank group... Coercer is a hard class to play if anyone says different they are not giving it true merit, or trying to make themselves sound good. Coercer is not for the faint of heart. Oh and using hate buff on a scout? They only transfer like 27% of the hate so you give them 48% more, they still only xfer 27%. I guess that's ok your raid actually put you in the MT group with a dirge AND and assassin. I became an enchanter for utility. Charm/Mez/Stun/Buff. I want to be versatile and yet still have a "job" on a raid, not just a pseudo DPS. </blockquote>

Jeepned2

07-11-2007, 10:15 AM

Face it folks, we have been regulated down to being simply a mana battery. Anything we do extra is a bonus. SOE seems very happy with that being our lot in life. SOE only seems to care about the Coercer when others complain that we are too over powered. SOE also doesn't seem to mind giving away several of our abilities away for free on many of the new EoF pieces including the new tradeskill items. Stuns are just one example. I raid, and for the most part only raid, so information on what I can and can't do in other zones means little to me. I would like to think I'm still an important part of our raid group, even as a mana battery, since there are several raid mobs that are almost impossible to kill without our mana regen abilities, Rumbler for example. I'm an admitted pessimist, and don't expect any meaningful changes from Sony. Basically, if you are unhappy about how useless 90% of our spells are, it may be time for you to move to an alt and level it up. Personally I recommend a dirge, swashy or a brigand, never seems to be enough of them around.

chily

07-11-2007, 10:21 AM

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote>"IMO it is the stun and aggro manipulation and power management ability of the coerce that makes them indispensable for groups and raids. " Yes, stuns, mezzes, stifles mainly define our class but you see everything is reduced on raids to a point where it become worthless... hate dec, hate gain, dps, powerfeed ***+Hate Gain*** why pop a coercer in the MT group when dirges not only get hate gain, they also increase parry, and also provide stone skin. There are some nice abilities that we get like increase heals by 25%...but come on...why not just pop a healer in there that could provide buffs that actually stack? ***Hate decrease***, it's only at 23% or something like that at master...troubies decrease hate by 40%...hello? what trouba hatedec and coercer doesn't stack? and it's 28% with aa + 8% for group with aa too makes it to 36% **Mem Wipe** Em Vyemm can be pet pulled and monk pulled to split the encounter..ok I just lost my value in labs raids. What else...power regen? Illus, Dirges, Troubs also provide power regen...coercer might provide more but does it a big deal? Nice saves a death***Stuns/Stifles***On raids they are reduced to what .2sec, .1 sec? Give me a break...just take it away please. And now certain mobs cannot be charmed, cannot be stunned, cannot be mezzed(unrest...) O yeah and we can't DPS! Stun 2secs Stifle 4secs vs epic's</blockquote>my 2cp

madha

07-11-2007, 10:44 AM

I have found another use for coercer. Amnesia, most people use it the wrong way. I have found that it can save a raid and about 15 -20 other people repairs. Say you are split taking a mob and the other tank group wipes and the mob is running toward the raid with his massive ubber 40 sec stuns, well amnesia him before he gets to the raid the whole encounter resets after u die and bam 15 people owe u money. This only works on named encounters where the named is the locking mechanic for the encounter, If it's 2 named together in one encounter this wont work, and if some dumb head dots the mob u anmesia it also wont work. Will also work on mobs pulled by proxy pull that agro to the raid when pulled, ala mayong

Controlor

07-11-2007, 01:00 PM

Please for all you coercers screaming that stuns are useless in raids because of the reduced duration.... Please STOP. Like a poster above said if a ranger is using a raincaller tell em to use another one (there better bows out there). If you time your stun/daze combos right you can SAVE the raid. Unfortunatly it often goes unnoticed. Scinerio (happens a LOT with my illy). Named starts doing burst dmg. Drops MT into the red. Healers arnt able to heal fast enough. STUN..... DAZE.... MT at full hp and the burst dmg from named is over. I have even been lucky enough to stun the mob when our MT went UNCONSIOUS. And we came back from that. Had i not stunned the tank could very well have been dead and we would have wiped. Its all about timing. And usually the stun immunity is gone by the time my stuns refresh anyways (as an illy at least). So i am effectivly able to chain stun. If you want to NOT waste your spells look at the mobs "buff/debuff" window. In there the first 3-4 buffs WILL be its immunity buffs. Stun looks like a head with sparkles coming out, Stifle is the voice bubble, Daze is a guy running, Mez (forget), and now Root (forget). But you can see exactly when that immunity drops from the mob to use your spell again to get its duration (other than an interupt).

Kiintac

07-11-2007, 06:23 PM

You have my vote for re actives going off for hits that even miss. I agree the whole concept for re actives on a controlling type class is sorta weird but I love re actives, the reason I left Illusionist and came back to Coercer. I'm only 55 and I don't want to even think about of getting depressed about raids again. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

swinslow

07-11-2007, 09:10 PM

Nice outline of concerns for coercers. Wanted to throw one more vote of support out there, I mean the odds of winning the lotto have to be greater than fixing this class and I buy a lotto ticket every few months (e.g hence I keep playing eq2).Fix our spell damage (and make those +dmg items useful)Find something to cement our place in a raid outside hate and a well placed thoughtsnap with a dash of mana regen.Since crowd control has been a joke ever since level one, and is mildly useful on release for some instances(aka nizara, cmm) I'm used to that being ignored, but really... Having played a shaman for years in eq1 and watching enchanters stack and rack the mobs like a parking valet it would be nice to see SOME usefulness. I suggested in feedback a longer lasting mez for raids with perhaps a 5 min recast etc. Give us some reliable raid crowd control...outside of a well placed stun. I degress.... Nice outline again. Mastiqulian 70 Coercer

Rythen16

07-14-2007, 02:20 AM

<cite>swinslow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice outline of concerns for coercers. Wanted to throw one more vote of support out there, I mean the odds of winning the lotto have to be greater than fixing this class and I buy a lotto ticket every few months (e.g hence I keep playing eq2).Fix our spell damage (and make those +dmg items useful)Find something to cement our place in a raid outside hate and a well placed thoughtsnap with a dash of mana regen.Since crowd control has been a joke ever since level one, and is mildly useful on release for some instances(aka nizara, cmm) I'm used to that being ignored, but really... Having played a shaman for years in eq1 and watching enchanters stack and rack the mobs like a parking valet it would be nice to see SOME usefulness. I suggested in feedback a longer lasting mez for raids with perhaps a 5 min recast etc. Give us some reliable raid crowd control...outside of a well placed stun. I degress.... Nice outline again. Mastiqulian 70 Coercer</blockquote>Yes, please fix our spell damage. It makes no sense whatsoever to have a class have these great stuns/dazes/stifles only to have our damage be based on the mob hitting something. So, we keep the mobs from hitting things with the stuns/dazes which negates our damage. I like your suggestion of the longer lasting mez for raids, however, that would be a skill that would define us as an enchanter. And we all know that enchanters are the only class that has to have most of their class defining skills negated severely versus raid mobs. Our stuns/dazes/stifles/mezzes/etc. are shortened to a very small fraction of their normal length. I'm not saying that they are totally useless, in fact, we use them all the time (when the 2 minute immunity wears off). Imagine that, a tank having a 2 minute immunity to taunts. A healer having a 2 minute immunity for their heals to land and their reactive heals/wards would be shortened to 8 seconds when fighting an epic mob. A DPS wizzy having a 2 minute immunity of their damage spells. But our class skills are dulled down like this without any type of compensation. If we are given these shortening the length penalties on our controlling spells, why don't we get some compensation in other areas versus epic mobs. What if our damage spells would do more damage versus epic mobs. I know for a fact that some classes have spells that get added damage versus certain mobs. Mystics have a spell that does additional damage if fighting a nightblood. Why couldn't we get extra damage versus epic conned mobs? We are getting our controlling spells shortened in length and with a 2 minute immunity to them. Having a proportional increase in damage versus these epic mobs would be a step to compensate for that.

Encantador

07-14-2007, 07:48 AM

I have been a coercer since day one of the Euro release and still have no other significant alt. Coercer is the only class I will play. I only raid.Over the last few weeks/months I have come to feel there is no place for me in a raid. In the MT group the dirge is preferred nto only do they have better MT buffs like stoneskin, their +aggro buff has a +aggression boost that makes it worth more than the coercer one. In other groups I feel like a passenger.I rarely post as it seems posting achieves nothing. However it is so rare to find such unanimity amongst the coercers that I feel I should add my voice.We need a place in raids and to a certain extent in groups. Fix procs to work with reactives. Give us a source of damage in raids (make charm usable or give us another damage ability).

Maroger

07-15-2007, 07:19 PM

I think the best place to take this thread is to the Test server forums. It might get noticed there. It sure won't get noticed here.

Melodar

07-16-2007, 01:56 AM

My only issue with coercer is the dumbing down of mobs. We take control of the mobs minds yet somehow we we do this they forget everything they knew and become some shadow of former self. If you charm a ^^^ it should stay a ^^^. That is the one and only issue I truly have with my coercer. There really is no logical reason this would happen if the ability could be done and if you charm a low mob it should stay low also.

GastonPhoebus

07-16-2007, 11:27 AM

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have been a coercer since day one of the Euro release and still have no other significant alt. Coercer is the only class I will play. I only raid.Over the last few weeks/months I have come to feel there is no place for me in a raid. In the MT group the dirge is preferred nto only do they have better MT buffs like stoneskin, their +aggro buff has a +aggression boost that makes it worth more than the coercer one. In other groups I feel like a passenger.I rarely post as it seems posting achieves nothing. However it is so rare to find such unanimity amongst the coercers that I feel I should add my voice.We need a place in raids and to a certain extent in groups. Fix procs to work with reactives. Give us a source of damage in raids (make charm usable or give us another damage ability).</blockquote>I, too, play a Coercer. I mostly raid, and sometimes do some group stuff with guildies in places like Nizara or in the EoF instances.I disagree with your statement that Coercers don't have a place. I am in the MT group as well, but we play with myself AND a Dirge (Guard, Temp, Defiler, Dirge, Swash, Coercer). I am aware that the hate doesn't stack, but with a Master ED with+49 to hate won't that leave the Dirge with one additional conc slot to run a beneficial song, like +DPS? I also bring excellent power regen to the MT group, a significant ability. With myself and the Dirge we never run out of power in the group that needs it the most. The +DPS buff on the mt and the Swash helps a lot on aggro generation for the mt. I add Coercive Healing for the shaman, put Harmonious Link on that pesky aggro-pulling sorc (wink), use tactical stuns to buy time for heals if spike damage is an issue and then- I DPS!It may not seem like much compared to a T1 DPS class, but being able to do 1k+ zonewide, in addition to all the other things mentioned above, is a huge benefit to a raid for a "utility" class like Coercer- and it's fun!Yes, we have issues (reactive damage), but everyone else does too. I believe the Coercer to be an excellent class that does bring much to a raid. I know my mt is never letting me bring an alt to a raid! (grin).Good luck, and I hope that you find your comfort zone with our most excellent class!

Andu

07-16-2007, 12:37 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the best place to take this thread is to the Test server forums. It might get noticed there. It sure won't get noticed here.</blockquote> Unfortunately, this thread got moved here by overzealous moderators. I sure as helle didn't want it relegated to the forum no dev reads, just so they can sweep it under the carpet <img src="/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, I've solved the Coercer problems for myself in the best way I could short of quitting. I betrayed ..... and it has really pained me to do so (virtually fully mastered, lots of Coercer set gear, Coercer since a month after launch). Thanks for that Lockeye, you're the greatest ... not.

Rythen16

07-18-2007, 12:41 AM

I see they did a hotfix to keep the charmed mobs from instantly running back to their spawn point. That is good.However, please devs fix our damage. Reactive damage on a class that also keeps the mobs from hitting is backward. Also, there are a great many good points in the OP. Please, help us devs.

FlamingDuck

07-18-2007, 10:23 PM

Urganabee@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>My only issue with coercer is the dumbing down of mobs. We take control of the mobs minds yet somehow we we do this they forget everything they knew and become some shadow of former self. If you charm a ^^^ it should stay a ^^^. That is the one and only issue I truly have with my coercer. There really is no logical reason this would happen if the ability could be done and if you charm a low mob it should stay low also. </blockquote> QFT...even if you have a Master charm...doesn't make sense the mobs (vast majority) are dumbed down to pointlessness. It also makes me wonder why they allow us to charm tank-type mobs when they often can't even last seconds in a fight. Utterly useless they are. If I charm a ^^^ mob it needs to stay that way, not this silly reduced to no arrow stuff that happens. I understand its risky and the thing will turn on me more often but its super unfair our class defining ability is more often then not too much of a pain to even bother with...and this thing with more and more mobs becoming uncharmable, are they trying to drive even more people to stop playing this class no offense to whoever is making these decisions but its doing nothing to help coercer population.

Lleinen

07-19-2007, 03:31 AM

You guys also forgot another thing we got screwed on...Possession

Aranieq

07-19-2007, 10:43 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the best place to take this thread is to the Test server forums. It might get noticed there. It sure won't get noticed here.</blockquote>Making threads where they are not appropriate just irritates the mods it doesn't get them noticed, the devs do read this forum. Unless there is something currently on the test server addressing coercer issues theres no need for a coercer movement thread there it will just be moved. If a thread is interesting enough for most players to read and comment it is likely interesting enough to catch a dev's eye they are no different than us there I believe. <hr /> <hr />To various "common" perceptions: 1 coercer dps does need work... this has been the top 3 complaints of coercers as far back as i can recall. More creative ways to achieve appropriately balanced dps is important. The old dps tiers are almost an archaic reference Coercers are expected to dps on raids near the level of Illusionist. They cannot be slumped into sole utility. This doesn't mean we suck or have no ability, just the amount of work for a coercer to match another mage in dps is a lot more. 2 the people complaining stuns are useless on raids need to practice more, if they changed it to take out coercer/chanter control abilities I'd be in an uproar since it was the first step in a long time made by the devs to BEGIN balancing the class. Timing is everything. If you think locking an epic down for 5-11s at a time wont make or break an event, you are mistaken. If the mechanics of the triggered timer is beyond you, spend more time watching it. This doesn't mean I don't think we need more control power, just that what is common knowledge tactics for the class is not enough for the average raider. Group set-up is screwing the coercer atm because of the lack of secure identity for the coercer group. Only the most experienced raid leaders seem to be utilizing their coercers to their potential... This is a reflection on the class as a whole. When so few knows where the heck to put us, or seriously what are we good for other than pr, it means we need more solid identity IMO. Many coercers are living productive lives but on a whole the class is calling out for the same thing... better dps, better controls, a solid place on the raid. For coercer there is a massive gap from the average raider to advanced rather than a steady progression similar to other mage classes IMO. I think a lot of it is based on groups and mechanics of the class. Coercers want to feel needed for more than PR across the board not just by the top guilds. Everyone knows what a Sorcerer, Illusionist, Summoner brings to the raid regardless of the content level of the raid, but the Coercer is still too clouded a class to have that "they need me" feeling. Whatever the end goal the Dev's have for the coercer it needs to be more defined IMO, more dramatic than the current state.

Koltr

07-19-2007, 10:51 AM

I suggested a solution to much of this earlier. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=370037�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...37�</a>

Rythen16

07-19-2007, 12:43 PM

A perma pet will not fix any of these problems. It will just make us weaker still. A perma pet would have to be so tamed down that it wouldn't make a lot of difference. We don't want to be illusionists.

Aranieq

07-19-2007, 02:10 PM

perma pet will do nothing for raids... you cant buff and have a conce slot pet and coercers are buffers.

Mr. Dawki

07-20-2007, 11:19 AM

ive known many a die-hard coercer fan in my days and all but one has rolled a new main and put their coercer on the back burnerhow many people here would switch mains if coercers stay bottom of the barel come RoK?

Blumfield

07-20-2007, 11:43 AM

I like the idea someone had about making Auspex proc on every swing rather than every time the mob connects. That alone would do much to fix the damage problems of the class, even if Auspex's max damage were scaled down 20% or so. It'd also make the focus effects that add triggers to auspex more desirable.I don't care for the perma-pet idea. As another poster stated, that's illusionist territory.

Trid

07-20-2007, 11:47 AM

I would never ever stop playing my coercer. 1)I am almost always in mt group if i'm not another coercer is we rotate. 2)i will agree we are lacking on dps compared to our conterpart illusionist.3) If you can't find any charm pets that do very nice dps you better look a bit harder there is a ton outside of raids. 4)If you want to use a charmed pet on raids and give up the conc. slots your raid leader really must learn more on our class. 5)I'm not a SUMMONER my pet does not tank like most that play this class seem to think they should. 6)We have alot of other abilitys to make it so our pets never get hit and if they do you are not playing your class correctly and need to keep practicing.Kepec

Koltr

07-20-2007, 12:03 PM

Actually a perma pet would not have to be tamed down. If you read my post you will see why. Not any more than any other pet. It would be based on the grade of the charm spell or the resummon spell. As it works today, you don't get a heroic pet if you charm a heroic. You get a simplified, stupefied, model of that mob that uses only a small subset of it's skills. What I am proposing would actually make your pet stronger, and reinforce the idea of a coercer as a coercer and not a suggester. Currently the coercer is the weakest of all mages. The weakest of all pet classes, and brought along raids as only a buffbot. I have played a coercer on and off for the duration, so I know the class well. Every time I think that the latest change may have improved the class, I am forced to acknowledge that it has only gotten worse. The hordes of whiners who decry any strength in a class other than the one(s) they currently use, have made a mess of the game in a quasi-socialist sort of way. Balance can never be achieved, only boredom will result. I wonder how many times a developer had his or her idea slapped down because the reigning balance czar thought it might overpower the class. If you want evidence of the enormous level of stupification delivered to the coercer and other classes as well, look at the vast differences between the PvE and PvP implementations. A perma pet implementation, in the way I described, could work both on the PvP and PvE worlds without divergence.

Rythen16

07-21-2007, 01:59 AM

<cite>Koltran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually a perma pet would not have to be tamed down. If you read my post you will see why. Not any more than any other pet. It would be based on the grade of the charm spell or the resummon spell. As it works today, you don't get a heroic pet if you charm a heroic. You get a simplified, stupefied, model of that mob that uses only a small subset of it's skills. What I am proposing would actually make your pet stronger, and reinforce the idea of a coercer as a coercer and not a suggester. Currently the coercer is the weakest of all mages. The weakest of all pet classes, and brought along raids as only a buffbot. I have played a coercer on and off for the duration, so I know the class well. Every time I think that the latest change may have improved the class, I am forced to acknowledge that it has only gotten worse. The hordes of whiners who decry any strength in a class other than the one(s) they currently use, have made a mess of the game in a quasi-socialist sort of way. Balance can never be achieved, only boredom will result. I wonder how many times a developer had his or her idea slapped down because the reigning balance czar thought it might overpower the class. If you want evidence of the enormous level of stupification delivered to the coercer and other classes as well, look at the vast differences between the PvE and PvP implementations. A perma pet implementation, in the way I described, could work both on the PvP and PvE worlds without divergence. </blockquote> Sorry about the tamed down comment. I got your post mixed up with another calling for a perma pet. They wanted the pet to be like 10 levels below the coercer. There is also a reply in your thread stating something similar to this "make the perma pet 10 levels below the coercer". You do raise some very good suggestions. I guess I just don't have the confidence in what the dev's would do with this. They would probably put a damage control on a perma charm pet. Yes, you and I know that other pet classes don't get that, but the way coercers have been nerfed, I feel the dev's would tame down the pet. Hopefully not, but knowing the devs...

Koltr

07-21-2007, 11:45 PM

If you think about it like this. The charm spell quality could merely determine the probability of charming an evenly matched mob. Stronger mobs would have a better chance to resist, while weaker mobs can be more easily convinced to follow. Toons are already fighting existing mobs out there, without too much difficulty. I also think, that the coercer should have a second spell that would resummon the last coerced mob, it may or may not have a quality level. There is really no need to dumb down the mob, since a coercer that can successfully charm an epic mob would only have a exceedingly small chance of doing so anyways. If they can actually pull it off, then they should have the right and privileged to use it in combat, and to parade it down the street. As described earlier, the mob would be refactored in as much as coercion is identical to destruction since for all intensive purposes, the mob is removed from it's normal role and placed under the perpetual command of the coercer. A toon would get experience and any quest and status updates for defeating the mob, and the mob would be resummoned per the second spell I mentioned, immediately the first time charm is used on that mob. The mob would not scale to the toon. Would not loose or gain potency, would not change in any other way, except it would get the random or selected petname. If it had three arrows up or was epic when coerced it will continue to have those features. It would use every spell or combat art it had as an NPC. Before you start saying this would make a coercer too powerful, consider this... The coercer should be identified by its ability to coerce. If a ranger was told that arrows vanished 30 seconds after purchase, or a guardian was told that his armor would turn into paste in 30 seconds, I think there would be a fairly loud outcry. Nonetheless, the coercer has the weakest pet skills, around. A necromancer or conjourer can annihilate a coercer by simply sending in a pet and detonating it, or something just as silly. Note that the chance of charming a tough mob decreases as the mob gets tougher, thus the possibility of charming an Epicx4 should be exceedingly small, but still possible. Currently, coercers are NOT brought along in raids for their coercion abilities, but rather for other secondary abilities. With this suggested change, a raid could actually go into a zone to capture and tame an Epicx4 for use in the rest of the world. It would be tougher than actually defeating the mob in battle, and could result in numerous wipes, and every time the coercer fails to charm the mob will hate them the most and kill em quick. Thus the coercer is guaranteed to be naked by the time they actually succeed. Thus such a scenario would be exceedingly unlikely, without a fortune in repair kits, and a long weekend. The more probably scenario is having two coercers in a group where one brings in an epic of lower stature, to help in the charming. Of course you have to remember, if they actually kill the mob then they will not have succeeded in charming it. Most uber coercers running around would have at most and Epicx1 mob and more usually a triple up, but only if they have the master spell. Enchanters as a whole should have this ability. Coercers should get the real mob on thier side, while an illusionist should get a shadow form that is only effective against those toons and mobs that fail to save versus illusion. Thus an illusionist whould really have an illusion when they became familiar with the actual entity. They wouldn't actually ever charm the mob, but rather get the ability to make a simulacrum of the mob at a later point in time. If the opponent succeeds in disbelieving in the pet, it doesn't go *poof* but rather it merely becomes unable to affect the opponent in any way. If they fail the saving throw, then the pet is as real as the copied actual entity, and would endure throughout the entire encounter. If an ally of the mob succeeds in disbelieving and the other mobs in the encounter have not yet checked, then they get a small boost to being able to disbelieve, thus multiple entities would be harder to fool than single ones. The coercer needs the ability to coerce and recall any mob in the game. Without exception. Leave it up to the bravery or foolishness of the coercer to make the attempt. Trust me, it isn't going to imbalance a single thing, if the appropriate charm percentages are properly picked. It will make a class that has been changed in it's role more like it's original description. Let them be coercers and not suggesters.

Jeepned2

07-23-2007, 03:06 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Face it folks, we have been regulated down to being simply a mana battery. Anything we do extra is a bonus. SOE seems very happy with that being our lot in life. SOE only seems to care about the Coercer when others complain that we are too over powered. SOE also doesn't seem to mind giving away several of our abilities away for free on many of the new EoF pieces including the new tradeskill items. Stuns are just one example. I raid, and for the most part only raid, so information on what I can and can't do in other zones means little to me. I would like to think I'm still an important part of our raid group, even as a mana battery, since there are several raid mobs that are almost impossible to kill without our mana regen abilities, Rumbler for example. I'm an admitted pessimist, and don't expect any meaningful changes from Sony. Basically, if you are unhappy about how useless 90% of our spells are, it may be time for you to move to an alt and level it up. Personally I recommend a dirge, swashy or a brigand, never seems to be enough of them around. </blockquote> I wrote this before the LU37 changes where announced. I'm afraid I now have to pull my recommendation for any scout class. How about rolling a Pally? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And I stick to my belief that SoE truly hates Coercers. I'm waiting for the day to come when we log on and have a note from SoE that says "Due to the uselessness of Coercers the class is being removed from Everquest 2, you are to select which class (Name of toon) will now become. Please select from the following: Warlock, Defiler or Bruiser. Thanks you. From the Developers at SoE."

McDade

07-23-2007, 09:46 AM

<cite>Rythen16 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, the fix you suggested is not a good fix. There's no way a mob should change its level to be the same as the coercer. Your example is a good point of this. It would definitely be way overpowered to have a level 13 mob change into a level 70 mob when it is charmed. It would one-hit every single mob in the zone. </blockquote>Why?When I bring my bruiser to CL to do grey quests that I either missed when I was that level or were added after I passed that level he can one shot the grey mobs? Why do you think that my coercers main source of DPS should be left behind and not any other classes?Bloody

Aranieq

07-23-2007, 10:23 AM

Any kind of summoned pet would costs concentration, even illusionist perma pet is 3 conce slots. Illusionist do not use their pets on raids except for some odd cases so why would we want to forgo buffs for a pet that only increases our dps as a utility class. I'm not talking about group or solo content I'm talking about raids. Coercers can dps atm and could use some tweaking there to make it a little more stable dps yes but the idea of raising their dps at the cost of utility, this will not solidify the coercers raid position... Summoners will be the only ones to get pets with low concentration because that is their primary role as a mage and primary form of dps. A coercer will not get a pet without spending 3 points on it. What good is a coercer on a raid that cannot buff because they have all of their points into a pet that a conjurer could still out parse? it won't get us into the troub group. The raid leader will say he doesn't care how much dps that pet is you can dps fine without it and still buff, just like with the illusionist. The only pets that come without concentration that are a possibility are dumbfires, which are truly just specialized trigger spells. If a coercer gets another pet it is likely to be a utility pet. Something that procs more utility than the coercer presently has. The raid does not need another watered down dps pet class it needs a stronger utility class. it's not just about how to make the coercer a stronger class it making them a stronger class that will fit well into the raid that no one else can replace. ---- again I'm talking about raiding content----

FlamingDuck

07-23-2007, 10:41 AM

I just recently got Possession and I was initially excitied about it too. However I was quickly disappointed and frustrated, there were so many mobs I could not possess, one that's might be mildly useful nearby...nope. On top of that you're lucky if it lasts more then 10 seconds...good grief yet another gimped ability for us and serving very little purpose for anything. [Removed for Content] sad.

Koltr

07-23-2007, 04:22 PM

<cite>FlamingDuck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just recently got Possession and I was initially excitied about it too. However I was quickly disappointed and frustrated, there were so many mobs I could not possess, one that's might be mildly useful nearby...nope. On top of that you're lucky if it lasts more then 10 seconds...good grief yet another gimped ability for us and serving very little purpose for anything. [I cannot control my vocabulary] sad. </blockquote> That is what is driving my suggestion. The grief coercers get keeps them out of important situations because they are seen as a utility class, and though they may sometimes get extra damage, they invariably act as a mana battery instead. Golly, you can 2-box a pally and a coercer, because the coercer never needs to do anything to keep the buffs going. Almost as bad as a bard. I don't want a coercer that stands by and waits for the loot roll, I want a coercer that can effect unwavering control of the mobs of Norath.

Lleinen

07-24-2007, 02:17 AM

make auspex proc on all swings lower conc cost on charm replace possession with something usefull (possess pet? make it scale to original level?)

Rythen16

07-24-2007, 04:01 AM

<cite>McDade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythen16 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, the fix you suggested is not a good fix. There's no way a mob should change its level to be the same as the coercer. Your example is a good point of this. It would definitely be way overpowered to have a level 13 mob change into a level 70 mob when it is charmed. It would one-hit every single mob in the zone. </blockquote>Why?When I bring my bruiser to CL to do grey quests that I either missed when I was that level or were added after I passed that level he can one shot the grey mobs? Why do you think that my coercers main source of DPS should be left behind and not any other classes?Bloody </blockquote>I do agree that we need more DPS capability. We should be able to go into a grey area and one shot the trash mobs. But I think that should come from the actual coercer in this situation, not a charmed mob and to do this, our main damage spells need to be fixed (see below). The post I quoted from used the example that a coercer should be able to be level 70 and go get a level 13 mob to charm and **poof** that mob becomes 70. The pet classes in this game cast their pet from a spell and the level of their pet is determined by what level the caster is. We technically are not a pet class.We do have the ability to charm mobs, which is one of our class defining skills- control the minds of creatures and have them do our bidding. But we are not actually creating the mob. Therefore, their levels should not change because we are not actually making a pet, we are using the mobs that are around an area to fight for us. Now, there has been some discussion here about what some are calling a "perma pet". This would be an actual pet that we would get. Then, yes, the level of the perma pet would match the level of the caster.Our main damage spells are reactives. They do their damage when the mob hits something. Taking a coercer into a grey area where the mobs do not hit you is keeping our main damage spells from working. To fix this, our reactives should hit the mob on every attempt to damage, rather then on actually connecting with that hit. Then, we can just cast our reactive and wait for one or two swings. True, it won't one shot recently greyed mobs, but our main damage is reactive, not direct.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-24-2007, 05:57 AM

Ideas: 1. Fix Possession to work in combat. Basically, make it a short term, no concetration buff that allows us to control a creature temporarily and force them to attack their friends. If this worked against Epics, even for a really short period with an immunity timer, it would be an AMAZING skill along the lines of FUSION (you know, the thing that gives 35k top hit scores? compared to our out of combat only 10s fluff spell?) Please, please, please make this change... it would simultaneously provide Coercers with a much needed 65 ancient spell that we've fallen behind, and raid utility. 2. Give us an AA or spell that creates a DIFFERENT pet that also takes up 2-3 slots (depending on how good it is). Similar to the Ooze pet for Necromancers, or Healing pet for Conjurors, taking up their pet spot. Ideas for what this pet can do: - Provide taunt increases for Fighters in the group and Dethreats for non-fighters in the group. - Out of Group, area power heal. Add in a constantly recast power drain ward, if even group only, would be a nice benefit too. - DON'T make it a stunner/mezzer/stifler/dazer pet unless those work on Epics AND don't set off immunities.. because it would be so random and counterproductive to timings to be useless and never used anyways. I personally think a combination of a groupwide non-Fighter Dethreat and out-of-group area power heal/minor power ward would make a pet we would want to use our concentration slots on during a raid. Because it would still have something to do with mana, we could replace the Final AA choice in the Mana path. Pet style choices could be a cloudy type thing.. or maybe a Tinmizer's whirling death thingy, that would be kinda neat. Basically.. it's a thing we control with our minds to project our abilities at mana/threat across an area. 3. Fix our Reactives to be guaranteed to go off more. I'm sick of pulling down really crappy damage on super easy content. Fights should not go SLOWER because things are EASIER. We are literally the ONLY class that has to deal with this situation. I actually have to SIT when fighting grey content for the Reactives to go off... that's beyond ridiculous. I think the best way to fix this is to do a cascade effect thing, like this: Duration: instant - Applies Convulsions on Target, lasts for 10 seconds. - Convulsions ends if Target attempts melee action. - Upon termination, Target is dealt X damage. - Applies Convulsions upon termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Convulsions ends if Target attempts melee action. - Upon termination, Target is dealt X damage. - Applies Convulsions upon termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Convulsions ends if Target attempts melee action. - Upon termination, Target is dealt X damage. This would mean that if the Mob tried to melee attack (CA or autoattack), he will be damaged and move on to the next reactive stage. If he doesn't, in 10 seconds he will be hit with the spell and move on the next stage anyways. Then it happens again two more times... for the duration of the regular spell (10x3 = 30s, 3 procs). For our Encounter Spell version, we can do the following: - Applies Hemorrhage on Target encounter, lasts for 10 seconds. - Hemorrhage ends if Target encounter attempts to cast a spell. - Upon termination, Target encounter is dealt (1/4 regular convulsion) damage. - Applies Hemorrhage on termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Hemorrhage ends if Target encounter attempts to cast a spell. - Upon termination, Target encounter is dealt (1/4 regular convulsion) damage. - Applies Hemorrhage on termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Hemorrhage ends if Target encounter attempts to cast a spell. - Upon termination, Target encounter is dealt (1/4 regular convulsion) damage. This would make it an actual Encounter damage spell, at the cost of single target. The simplification solves the issue of "who to damage" when the timer is up, and overall I think it would be a better use of the spell... because I've NEVER seen it used up before it's timer was done. EVER. Our AA's could instead be the following: - Increases damage by 2% per rank - Reduce the duration of each stage by 1s per rank. This would make our spell quicker DPS, with a small damage boost. This change to our Reactives would simultaneously solve the issue of damage never being used because of Easy encounters, as well as because we decided to help our group by using Stuns, Dazes, or Stifles. The main portion of our DPS comes from these two spells already, and the Illusionists can get full use of their spells regardless of the status of the target. This would give us equal footing. There.. I've even made up the spells for you guys. I'm not asking for a paycheck, just PLEASE implement this so I can get the most out of my character without hobbling myself!

Vydian

07-24-2007, 12:35 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Ideas: 1. Fix Possession to work in combat. Basically, make it a short term, no concetration buff that allows us to control a creature temporarily and force them to attack their friends. If this worked against Epics, even for a really short period with an immunity timer, it would be an AMAZING skill along the lines of FUSION (you know, the thing that gives 35k top hit scores? compared to our out of combat only 10s fluff spell?) Please, please, please make this change... it would simultaneously provide Coercers with a much needed 65 ancient spell that we've fallen behind, and raid utility. 2. Give us an AA or spell that creates a DIFFERENT pet that also takes up 2-3 slots (depending on how good it is). Similar to the Ooze pet for Necromancers, or Healing pet for Conjurors, taking up their pet spot. Ideas for what this pet can do: - Provide taunt increases for Fighters in the group and Dethreats for non-fighters in the group. - Out of Group, area power heal. Add in a constantly recast power drain ward, if even group only, would be a nice benefit too. - DON'T make it a stunner/mezzer/stifler/dazer pet unless those work on Epics AND don't set off immunities.. because it would be so random and counterproductive to timings to be useless and never used anyways. I personally think a combination of a groupwide non-Fighter Dethreat and out-of-group area power heal/minor power ward would make a pet we would want to use our concentration slots on during a raid. Because it would still have something to do with mana, we could replace the Final AA choice in the Mana path. Pet style choices could be a cloudy type thing.. or maybe a Tinmizer's whirling death thingy, that would be kinda neat. Basically.. it's a thing we control with our minds to project our abilities at mana/threat across an area. 3. Fix our Reactives to be guaranteed to go off more. I'm sick of pulling down really crappy damage on super easy content. Fights should not go SLOWER because things are EASIER. We are literally the ONLY class that has to deal with this situation. I actually have to SIT when fighting grey content for the Reactives to go off... that's beyond ridiculous. I think the best way to fix this is to do a cascade effect thing, like this: Duration: instant - Applies Convulsions on Target, lasts for 10 seconds. - Convulsions ends if Target attempts melee action. - Upon termination, Target is dealt X damage. - Applies Convulsions upon termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Convulsions ends if Target attempts melee action. - Upon termination, Target is dealt X damage. - Applies Convulsions upon termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Convulsions ends if Target attempts melee action. - Upon termination, Target is dealt X damage. This would mean that if the Mob tried to melee attack (CA or autoattack), he will be damaged and move on to the next reactive stage. If he doesn't, in 10 seconds he will be hit with the spell and move on the next stage anyways. Then it happens again two more times... for the duration of the regular spell (10x3 = 30s, 3 procs). For our Encounter Spell version, we can do the following: - Applies Hemorrhage on Target encounter, lasts for 10 seconds. - Hemorrhage ends if Target encounter attempts to cast a spell. - Upon termination, Target encounter is dealt (1/4 regular convulsion) damage. - Applies Hemorrhage on termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Hemorrhage ends if Target encounter attempts to cast a spell. - Upon termination, Target encounter is dealt (1/4 regular convulsion) damage. - Applies Hemorrhage on termination, lasts for 10 seconds. - Hemorrhage ends if Target encounter attempts to cast a spell. - Upon termination, Target encounter is dealt (1/4 regular convulsion) damage. This would make it an actual Encounter damage spell, at the cost of single target. The simplification solves the issue of "who to damage" when the timer is up, and overall I think it would be a better use of the spell... because I've NEVER seen it used up before it's timer was done. EVER. Our AA's could instead be the following: - Increases damage by 2% per rank - Reduce the duration of each stage by 1s per rank. This would make our spell quicker DPS, with a small damage boost. This change to our Reactives would simultaneously solve the issue of damage never being used because of Easy encounters, as well as because we decided to help our group by using Stuns, Dazes, or Stifles. The main portion of our DPS comes from these two spells already, and the Illusionists can get full use of their spells regardless of the status of the target. This would give us equal footing. There.. I've even made up the spells for you guys. I'm not asking for a paycheck, just PLEASE implement this so I can get the most out of my character without hobbling myself! </blockquote> These are all great ideas, especially with the reactives. Something that would be *really* neat for possession... On any mob, make it a no-conc charm for something like 30 seconds that would work on anything non-named or that breaks scripts/ring events. Epics would follow the CC rules and last like 10 seconds. Do something else with Hypnosis (unless Illusionists really like it....) However, if you cast it on a mob you have charmed, you take complete control over it for 30 seconds, giving you access to its abilities and such like now. Give it a recast of like 5 minutes. It'll never happen, but I'd be pretty happy with that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Koltr

08-04-2007, 05:06 PM

All of that still misses the point. When I first rolled a coercer, and what attracted me to the game was the idea that, golly, I'm gonna get to control the mobs in the game. Eh, sorry Charlie, no dice. Control what, and to what effect? Epics? No dice! Nameds? Nope! Ringers? No way Jose! What exactly of any merit CAN I actually control? Ok, so I can control some Triple up heroics, but only on the fifth Tuesday of alternate months beginning in the letter Q. Seriously, unless I have the Master spell, coercing something that is even to me is gonna hurt in a few minutes. Try it with a Heroic mob and I'm running for the exit sooner or later. Try it in a Raid, let alone in a single group, and the leader is gonna give me the big Good Bye. Oh, I get to hang around for my reactive or mana battery skills, but why doesn't SOE just create a new Archetype called Support with sub classes ->{Mana Battery, Leet Buff, Run Monkey}. Have you noticed that whenever a discussion comes up regarding the best utility class, the coercer and bard bubbles to the top? Let's use a little logic here. The Bruiser and Guardian classes have more coercion skills than the Coercer, theses days. At least they get to tell a mob to pound on them, and the mob happily obliges. I think the coercer is gimped enough to allow them to at least keep the pet around for a while. That being said, the original description of the class isn't what it has become. Who wants to be relegated to a utility class? In a community the utility class is the one that does the most work and gets the least thanks, worse in a prison population. I don't fancy being part of the utility class there. The illusionist plain vanilla pet was a mistake, and the coercer model is as well. Niether give a good read of what it means to enchant, nor do they define the classes for what they are. Instead they get a bunch of secondary abilities which applie to the Jack of all trades class, the Bard. If I wanted to roll a quasi bard with a short timer minion, I would think I could do better. The base essence of enchanting is ENCHANTMENT, for the illusionist it is ILLUSION, for the coercer it is COERCION. Not rocket science folks. If they do anything else ALL OF THE TIME, then guess what, they ain't enchanters any more than my little brother is a rock star. The Coercer class is dead, long live the Suggester.

Xas

08-15-2007, 02:40 PM

I came to the coercer forum to find out the difference between an Illusionist and a Coercer. Why? Because after reaching the upper 20s in solo, and a bit of group play, I don't see the point in continuing with such a low DPS class that is hamstrung in groups, and I am thinking of switching to Illusionist or deleting the char. As mentioned by the OP, in group play, I have to make a decision, do I want to be able to charm or give out buffs. If I don't charm, then I am basically a mana regen bot. Because in my experience, the coercer without pet is one the lowest, if not THE lowest, DPS classes around. While stuns help out, there is no real way of knowing if they will work or not due to timers, and they don't help kill the mob when solo.

Trepan

08-15-2007, 05:00 PM

In groups I see myself as focused on damage mitigation. Not deflecting incoming damage, but preventing it via stuns, stifles and dazes. In areas where we're "over our head" that mitigation also comes from Mezzing adds - but thats rare. Hell, I had my first real run in Castle Mistmoore this last weekend and I cackled my fool head off (as well as having group members genuflect). Combining everything I can do to shut down an active mob without mezzing it and then trying to squeeze every last bit of power out of myself (and our enemies) to spread through the group makes every encounter a full one of activity for me. However, because I've gone AGI and STA AA lines to up my subj and casting speed [instead of INT], my DPS isn't the best even compared to other coercers I've heard of. I self parse at around 400-500 (I seldom use Sonic Boom). I haven't done any comparative parses to what the DPS of the mobs are from me actively working to shut them down to just sitting back with my reactives going. That to me would be more of a indicator of the worth that I bring to the group or raid than just my DPS. Unfortunately thats not easy to see in a single parse. You can see the amount of points a healer has healed. You can see the amount of damage a wizard has done. You can't see how much damage the tank/group/raid DIDN'T have to soak up, and even if you do a comparison, you'd be hard pressed to say that the damage drop wasn't because of the tanks new metal shirt, or a new buff combination or... I want utility that can be used everywhere with almost any combination of classes in a group that goes beyond power regen, which is something a lot of groups can live without (though they appreciate it when they have it). I'm saddened that so much of the game is designed around MAXIMUM DAMAGE ASAP and less with strategy. But with that said, [I cannot control my vocabulary] I'm still having fun! Fixing possession would be fun, fixing hypnotize would be nice. Being able to do some damage on-par with, say a fury or a warden would be nice... but really, what I want, is something that I can do that noticeably improves the raiding/grouping experience without them being rarely used specialized abilities like Amnesia. Yoyo, I would not park my Coercer as an alt even if things stayed the same in RoK. I'm having a blast as things are. I and my guild have found ways to work well together with the classes and abilities we have. I don't have to have a preset mold to fill with them, we figured out how to fit the pieces together into a working and deadly force of our own. <cite>Koltran wrote:</cite><blockquote>The base essence of enchanting is ENCHANTMENT, for the illusionist it is ILLUSION, for the coercer it is COERCION. Not rocket science folks. If they do anything else ALL OF THE TIME, then guess what, they ain't enchanters any more than my little brother is a rock star. The Coercer class is dead, long live the Suggester. </blockquote> We have the ability to do them - but the environment of the world doesn't make it worthwhile to do at least 80% of the time, and 99.99% of the time on raids. Mobs don't use power (why do they have the [Removed for Content] then?), mobs don't live long enough to make it worth while to mezz their group mates. Hell, 95% of the level and group appropriate fights don't use enough of your group-mate's power to make mana regen a fricken issue either. So my statement is that the class is not broken... its the mobs. Make them use some [Removed for Content] power so that draining it would cripple them. Make the fights tougher/longer so that mezzing a member of the linked encounter would help instead of hindering (Dammit, you're blocking my AoEs!). Give us .... a bone 8-)

mcavellero

08-16-2007, 04:23 AM

""We have the ability to do them - but the environment of the world doesn't make it worthwhile to do at least 80% of the time, and 99.99% of the time on raids. "Um actually we dont. Many mobs are immune to mezz/stun even in grp instances like Unrest; this trend seems to be increasing as days go by. On epics our stuns/mezzes(if the mob is not immune to it) are reduced down to worthlessness. So yes we are a manabattery, that's about it... The aggro changes only exacerbated our worthymess in raids making the dirge hatebuff more valuable than ours. "What does your class do?""we feed mana ^^"You know I have been seeing complaints for some time and not much has changed for us...mostly keep getting worse. I think SoE really does not care about coercers because they make up such a small portion of the population...in fact if they could erase them, they would probably do it. But then again, check out the dps stats for classes. You will find that many tier 2 (conjs, necros) top wizzies by far... However, my friends, no one is as broken as coercers are. (no sarcasm)Coercers, the forever broken class...A sad but true story.

Rominian

08-28-2007, 08:34 AM

Controlor, I appreciate some of your comments, but you dont seem to understand a lot of the issues. Maybe I am misreading your posts. One thing is that our hate gain was reduced from 43% at adept 3 to 15%, with a 15% hate transfer. That is laughable, we dont do the dps for our measly 15% hate to help the tank at all. Our stuns in a raid ARE almost useless. In my opinion they dont last long enough, and never have. Yes, we can root now too, which is great, IF we could root the mobs far enough from the raid to make a difference. I have been able to do it ONE time, by putting myself ahead of the MT when he did the pull on a group...it nearly killed me. We have more restrictions put on our class than any other that I have seen, Im sure Illy's are up there to. The thing that torqs me more than anything has already been stated. By doing our job, we rob ourselves of doing dps, plain and simple. Power drains are a joke, when an epic mob has 5 million HPs, can you imagine its power pool? I like the idea someone stated of making our Cataclysmic Mind line be triggered off of our power drains. As it is, I get to do 400% dmg/power, so if a freakin epic mob uses the same amount as say a lvl 70 PC, and IF the spell triggers, then I get to see a whopping 200 dmg for my efforts, that is an insult. I have played a coercer since the game began, been through all of these changes, some of them have been good, most have been bad, and most issues have been ignored. Some of us and our whining are responsible for the very changes that we are now complaining about. I want the devs to take a look at our class and fix the conflicts, and if this whole pet returning to the spawn point is not a bug, they are going to hear about it from me.

Rarlin

08-28-2007, 11:00 AM

<cite>Rominian wrote:</cite><blockquote>and if this whole pet returning to the spawn point is not a bug, they are going to hear about it from me.</blockquote>Didn't this already get fixed?

Jeepned2

08-30-2007, 11:16 PM

There have been a lot of good ideas for fixing the Coercer in this post. Only one problem, apparently no one at Sony reads or pays attention to our forums. If you are ever looking for a big or good or fair fix to the Coercer class, you're playing the wrong game.

Tipton

08-31-2007, 04:57 PM

<cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rominian wrote:</cite><blockquote>and if this whole pet returning to the spawn point is not a bug, they are going to hear about it from me.</blockquote>Didn't this already get fixed?</blockquote>Yes, the fact is if someone can throw in something more to prove there point (whether it hold water or not) they will.

mcavellero

10-02-2007, 03:13 AM

in an attempt to keep this post active so that hopefully a dev can see some of our suggestions/bump

Ran

10-02-2007, 07:26 AM

Coerceres cant do any art of dps, they're just manafeeder, stuns/stifles/mezz brings nothing on raids or in groupplay.. we are the poorest class so please dont choose us, take any other class, they're all bether *whine....whine...whine...* i just overview what arguments are around and mostly are from players which cannot play they're class (when i look they're posts). When you guys are so pet-controlled, roll a conjurer or necro or better an illu. The only thing... manadrain-spells should get overwritten with something useful...

chily

10-02-2007, 08:03 AM

stun and stilfe are usefull in group and raid. A dps spike and our 2sec stun gives the healers the time to spamm heal mt up.

Blumfield

10-02-2007, 11:22 AM

<cite>Lleinen wrote:</cite><blockquote>make auspex proc on all swingslower conc cost on charmreplace possession with something usefull (possess pet? make it scale to original level?)</blockquote>Concise ftw. /agree (not with possession scaling to level, but with replacing it w/something useful)

Andu

10-06-2007, 08:09 PM

<cite>Raniz@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Coerceres cant do any art of dps, they're just manafeeder, stuns/stifles/mezz brings nothing on raids or in groupplay.. we are the poorest class so please dont choose us, take any other class, they're all bether *whine....whine...whine...* i just overview what arguments are around and mostly are from players which cannot play they're class (when i look they're posts). When you guys are so pet-controlled, roll a conjurer or necro or better an illu. The only thing... manadrain-spells should get overwritten with something useful...</blockquote>Posts like this make me laugh. I mean no disrespect to Raniz but it is seriously failing to see the bigger picture and there is a huge dose of irony in saying its from players who cannot play their class.Any average Coercer can bumble along, buffing his or her group, powerfeeding their group and chucking out a bit of damage. If you are content to sit in that mold and chuck rocks at those who want to see their class fixed to overcome obvious bugs or poor design then that is up to you but don't expect to get any awards for doing it.After making the OP and then seeing it bumped from general discussion to the obscurity of this forum I gave up and betrayed to illusionist. It certainly has given me a new perspective on things.Negatives:a) The powerfeeding stuff a lot of Coercers cling to is a total illusion (no pun intended! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> ). Unless you are specced down the mana line an Illusionist can do everything that you can. Savante is awesome.b) A Coercers dps is shocking. For the level of utility that each class gives (which is equal between the two classes I would say) there is no justification for Coercers being hamstrung the way that they are. None whatsoever. The fixes I suggested originally would help enormously.c) Having a lvl 70 pet at your beck and call no matter where you are is again awesome. The things I said in my OP really came home when I went out with the Illusionist pet. No matter which zone I am in or where I am I know I am going to get a reasonable pet. The balance between this and a Coercers charm was totally lost when all the good pets were taken away from Coercers. You can scrabble about in the Bonemire playing with your corpse candle for one more month, RoK is coming and if EoF is anything to go by you will find little or nothing worth wasting those 3 conc points on in the new zones. Scratch that, a couple of good pets might make it through for a month or two but expect to have them taken away asap. Better level up fast guys.d) People banging on about the stun and stifle are right in that they are useful but they are in no way defining elements of what a Coercer is. Again, an illusionist can do it all just as well.Positives:a) I badly miss Sonic Boom.b) The DPS buff is great, haste is just not needed so much.c) Harmonious link is fantastic in raids for helping out with difficult players/classes. Our guild was without a Coercer for a while after I betrayed and this was the thing that was missed most from raids.d) While a lot of people bemoan the split in the hate buff, I think it is a good thing. The spot that was lost in the MT group became a lot more viable and with it those EoF end of line abilities like Thoughtsnap got their logical place back. If you are doing your job right you should be chucking out at least 1000 dps in the MT group. Add on the unparsed hate (which people forget about) from the power drains, stuns and other stuff then the transfer is not inconsiderable.