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Splintered

07-06-2007, 11:30 AM

One of the things I love doing during some of the downtimes I have at work is logging on eq2players and studying the skills and seeing what other players do with their aa's and such. I pay in part 30 dollars a month so I can get this option. I would ask that at least a little bit of attention be given to the site and update all the player aa's to reflect what is now out in the game. I would also ask that the eof tree's be added, so we can look at those too.

Seagoat

07-06-2007, 12:02 PM

This is already on the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=363263" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">to-do list</a>. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dark_Grue

07-06-2007, 01:14 PM

Yeah, but Seagoat, the "to-do" list is from May...my calendar says it's July. My extensive industry experience tells me that in 2-3 months, even if one cannot actually fix them problem, you'd better be extremely sharp on the schedule as to when the fix is going to be in place. We've not had an update or an expected date when all the outstanding problems will be fixed in quite some time (other than a few piecemeal issues).This specific problem's actually existed for even longer than that (it'd be since Echoes of Faydwer was released on November 14, 2006; so, what, eight months, right?). That's not exactly good communication or service, by my reckoning. Still, they have acknowledged the problem at least. Doing something about it, well, that's another matter... I mean, let's not rush into anything...The sad truth of the matter is that you, and the feature, do not actually represent $30/mo. to SoE. It's actually a $0.99/mo. feature (a little less if you're paying for all the advanced features as a bundle). And that's gross, not net. Technically speaking, if one of their hypothetical developers even thinks "oh, hey, probably ought to get around to updating EQ2Players to actually reflect stats as the game plays currently", they've already burnt up the entire available income for the feature.It means that you really don't have much leverage. I'm not sure the legal argument (contract law, suitability for use, etc. - IANAL) is strong enough to warrant an actual testing in court (and therefore not enough to motivate SoE to actually fix things). The moral argument of taking people's money for stuff that doesn't work isn't even in the picture. Unless you're planning on being awarded substantial punitive damages, that $0.99/mo. you've been paying, even if it's since the game was released, only adds up to about $30.69. Barely enough to pay the $20 filing fee for small claims court, let alone your time. I only mention this at all, since "class action" seems to be a phrase that gets repeated a lot when things like this happen - it's not the magic solution people think it is, and it's hardly one that benefits the consumer in any way.Since (I presume) you're actually still subscribing to the features, you're even in a weaker position to negotitate. They've already got your money. I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue isn't being used to backfill shortfalls in the main game, rather than supporting the advanced features.The best way to get your message across is, unfortunately, not as an individual. The entire community needs to unsubscribe from the advanced features until at a minimum they work as advertised. Not re-subscribing to them until they work the way you would like to use them would be even better. But everyone would have to do it, since one person's $0.99 (or even $2.99) isn't going to send a strong enough message. SoE has been pocketing money that has been specifically earmarked for these advanced features for a long time and not been providing the expected service. Eight months to fix a (predictable) problem isn't acceptable. Realize that some of the features have never worked correctly or reliably - that's about 31 months, folks! Do you accept this level of service in other areas of your life? Why would you?I stopped paying for the advanced features when SoE's pattern of abuse became clear, and I've advised my guild and other allied guilds of that decision and the reasons for it. There are other alternatives (one of which I wrote the software for), that, while they aren't good solutions for everyone, and may not offer the level of integration that EQ2Players.com offers as a site, are available - and FREE.Vote with your dollars. Don't pay for a service that doesn't work hoping they're going to fix it, someday.

Seagoat

07-06-2007, 02:39 PM

I wasn't actually suggesting it was on a "we're busy working on it" list... I was just pointing out that they know it needs to be done and that a SOE employee has acknowledged that it ought to be done. That doesn't even begin to touch when or how they're going to take care of it.On the other points, I totally agree with you. No issue there. :p

Dark_Grue

07-06-2007, 04:29 PM

<cite>Seagoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wasn't actually suggesting it was on a "we're busy working on it" list... I was just pointing out that they know it needs to be done and that a SOE employee has acknowledged that it ought to be done. That doesn't even begin to touch when or how they're going to take care of it.On the other points, I totally agree with you. No issue there. :p</blockquote>I know. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I just though the topic needed teh moar outragez!It's been increasingly bothering me that this forum only seems to serve one real purpose- which is housing the RM development thread, and that's not an official one. As a means of communication and feedback between SoE and the paying player community, it's an abject failure. Actual communication from an official SoE source is so rare, that the messages are gratefully accepted without question of their content or effectiveness. Distributing customer service like it was <a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/largess" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">largess</a>, just really rubs me wrong... Having people accept it like it was mana from heaven... ugh, even worse.Which is no accusation against you in being passive about the issue. You're practically single-handedly providing free (hey, there's that word again) support to this entire forum! You and I, we gotta stand up against The Man, ya know? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Hellswrath

07-09-2007, 07:37 PM

And what would you have me do then, DG? When Jabru finally decides to talk to us again after weeks of absence with NO progress, should I flip out on him like we all have in the past? (You know, back when enough people thought that things might change if they posted) Every time that happened it was even longer before we heard from him again and the suggestions from those that ranted were widely ignored, despite some of them being useful.If all I can do is find bugs, post on them and pray that SOE will finally decide to finish fixing what we have been paying for over the last 8 months, then that is what I will do. If I have to control myself and not go on a rant in order to have my suggestions and feedback heard, then again, that is what I will do.Outrage will only prove useful if we had an entire community involved in it. Sadly, most of this community has long since given up on this site.This doesn't mean I disagree with you. However, if you have any better suggestions, feel free to post them while I go wait for my mana from heaven.-Hells

Dark_Grue

07-10-2007, 03:59 AM

Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>And what would you have me do then, DG? When Jabru finally decides to talk to us again after weeks of absence with NO progress, should I flip out on him like we all have in the past? (You know, back when enough people thought that things might change if they posted) Every time that happened it was even longer before we heard from him again and the suggestions from those that ranted were widely ignored, despite some of them being useful.</blockquote>My contention has been that SoE is failing to provide the servie they have contracted for. If you wish to hold Jabru personally responsible for the breakdown in communication and service, I certainly won't stand in your way. I have no intention in engaging in personal attacks against Jabru or any specific SoE employee. I do however, feel I am justified in criticizing their performance of their job duties as SoE representatives. However, that isn't what I was writing about - and didn't write about - I didn't even bring up his name. If the failure to communicate, address, and resolve issues lies with Jabru in your mind, then perhaps you should go with that feeling?Why I didn't mention Jabru by name is because I don't feel this breakdown in service truly lies with him. I doubt very much that Jabru is empowered or interested in resolving these issues. It is the role of management to ensure that QA and service is maintained. And those people aren't known, and aren't responding to us. I blaim SoE's management in allowing these problems to arise and remain unaddressed. Shooting the messanger, is, as you mention, unproductive. However, I do take offense at the idea that every note Jabru passes along is a great boon and favor to the players who are diligently reporting these problems, performing in some cases rather sophisticated diagnoses, and are essentially acting as SoE's unpaid QA staff.While some of the players here have lost their message in the way they presented thier argument, poor manners on their part does not invalidate their complaint. They have a valid complaint. You have a valid complaint. How these complaints are presented does not invalidate the facts of the matter. And they should not. That doesn't excuse bad behavior on either side - I am upset with the situation, perhaps more so than most. But I've always tried to support my arguments rationally, not misrepresent my opinions as facts, and stay above the belt. And that's the attitude I'd advocate. I'm calling it as I see it, a spade as a spade.Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote:<blockquote>If all I can do is find bugs, post on them and pray that SOE will finally decide to finish fixing what we have been paying for over the last 8 months, then that is what I will do. If I have to control myself and not go on a rant in order to have my suggestions and feedback heard, then again, that is what I will do. Outrage will only prove useful if we had an entire community involved in it. Sadly, most of this community has long since given up on this site.This doesn't mean I disagree with you. However, if you have any better suggestions, feel free to post them while I go wait for my mana from heaven.</blockquote>Well, I think I made two very good suggestions: first, and the one that can have the greatest personal benefit to you or any other individual is to cancel your subscription to the advanced features. Three dollars isn't much, but I see no reason that I (or anyone else) should allow my wallet to hemmorage in any amount. Cancelling only sends a message if it is done en masse, and I admitted as much. I don't see that sort of solidarity likely to manifest itself. But I can still keep my three dollars in my wallet where it can do me good.The second is to do exactly what you, others, and myself are doing - point out, firmly, where the service is broken and/or lacking. Provide feedback, and troubleshoot. I resent that such is necessary, but it is the most likely method we have as customers to effect change. If SoE chooses to listen and act (and I feel that in many cases the problems are so severe that they are obligated to do so), then so much the better. But until SoE can bring their service level above the minimum of what they have advertised as providing, I will award no plauds to their staff. They are being paid to provide a service and perform their duties, and I do not feel that pointing out these shortfalls constitutes personal abuse.I suspect that we are in violent agreement on these points. I think you do yourself disservice saying you're waiting "for your mana from heaven" - that comment wasn't directed at you, and doesn't characterize your efforts here. You're not waiting passively, letting your wallet bleed out. The people who are left here are the ones getting involved and trying to find a way to resolve the situation by whatever means they can find. That appears to be a hell of a lot more sincere than what SoE has shown to the community.Does what I've said constitute a rant? I hope not, but I suspect the only ones left around here to listen are the choir...

Trepan

07-10-2007, 11:18 AM

Sony is a big company. SoE is just a part of it, as is the Sony Web Services team (Note: Web Services isn't a part of the EQ2 development or maintenance or QA structure. Completely Separate Entity.). They're not tied to just EQ2, they're also maintaining the web infrastructure for SWG, EQLive, and the rest of the online games Sony runs. This, I think, explains some of the seemingly arbitrary decisions in switching from one format to another and the changes in functionality and offerings as they adjust to a more "common" and easily maintained base of templates to support the diverse games. Now, with that said, it's no excuse. My frustration has been on par with some of the greatest of rants posted on this issue. It IS truly outrageous and something that I think Scott and the other producers of the other games need to bring to the forefront. Tie it in to marketing and sales and subscriber acquisition. Up the priority of the web presence, give the Web Services guys more resources to do what needs to get done. Perhaps increase the person per game site ratio to something more akin to 1/2 than 1/3 so that the sites can receive the focus required to get the job done. A solid Web Presence for current subscribers to use to show their friends how they're doing and whats going on in game increases the probability of acquiring new subscribers. A weak web presence does nothing, and a broken one does the opposite - it adds another straw of frustration to the camel's back and drives people closer to the door. Pass the hymnal, Grue.

Hellswrath

07-10-2007, 05:18 PM

<cite>Dark_Grue wrote:</cite><blockquote>My contention has been that SoE is failing to provide the servie they have contracted for. If you wish to hold Jabru personally responsible for the breakdown in communication and service, I certainly won't stand in your way. I have no intention in engaging in personal attacks against Jabru or any specific SoE employee. I do however, feel I am justified in criticizing their performance of their job duties as SoE representatives. However, that isn't what I was writing about - and didn't write about - I didn't even bring up his name. If the failure to communicate, address, and resolve issues lies with Jabru in your mind, then perhaps you should go with that feeling?</blockquote>It was your call for more outrage on this topic that I was responding to. My statement was merely a comment that displaying continuous outrage in this forum has shown a complete lack of results. As far as your implication that this was a personal attack on Jabru, please save such conjecture for PMs. The only things I stated were simple facts about the history of the communication in this forum since the "revamp" in November. He is merely the face of the company he works for, and thus the reference for SOE's lack of communication. I could have easily replaced every "Jabru" with "SOE" and it would have made no difference in the facts. Using my post as a springboard for this quote, especially the last sentence, is below the belt and serves as an attack on my credibility (which I do not appreciate). If your initial post was not aimed at me, then this was unnecessary.Dark_Grue wrote: <blockquote>Actual communication from an official SoE source is so rare, that the messages are gratefully accepted without question of their content or effectiveness. Distributing customer service like it was <a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/largess" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">largess</a>, just really rubs me wrong... Having people accept it like it was mana from heaven... ugh, even worse.</blockquote>When I am one of the only people still responding regularly to the official thread to fix the site and trying to keep my posts courteous (if not always positive), I can't help but feel that the last part of this was directed at me. In truth, the drive to write my last post was anger over taking criticism from one of the people I would have expected support from. Given the state of the official thread, you can't blame me for coming to this conclusion, although I am relieved to discover it was not the case.Dark_Grue wrote: <blockquote>Well, I think I made two very good suggestions: first, and the one that can have the greatest personal benefit to you or any other individual is to cancel your subscription to the advanced features. Three dollars isn't much, but I see no reason that I (or anyone else) should allow my wallet to hemmorage in any amount. Cancelling only sends a message if it is done en masse, and I admitted as much. I don't see that sort of solidarity likely to manifest itself. But I can still keep my three dollars in my wallet where it can do me good.The second is to do exactly what you, others, and myself are doing - point out, firmly, where the service is broken and/or lacking. Provide feedback, and troubleshoot. I resent that such is necessary, but it is the most likely method we have as customers to effect change. If SoE chooses to listen and act (and I feel that in many cases the problems are so severe that they are obligated to do so), then so much the better. But until SoE can bring their service level above the minimum of what they have advertised as providing, I will award no plauds to their staff. They are being paid to provide a service and perform their duties, and I do not feel that pointing out these shortfalls constitutes personal abuse.</blockquote>Actually, the suggestions I was referring to were on how to better respond to SOE's lack of communication or progress within the confines of this board. However, I fully agree that the best way to show any response is to stop paying until it is fixed. The state of the website right now is where it should have been with the release of EoF. After nearly 8 months since the re-release of the site, we should already have the lost functionality back (i.e. the internal guild rankings), as well as the functionality that has been advertised (the EoF achievements tree and the mysterious knowledge section). When we have this and the remainder of the bugs currently on the list fixed, I would say that this site is worth the cost. Until then I fully agree that people should not pay for this service.As for the troubleshooting, I can identify with your resentment over having to become SOE's unpaid QA staff. I would just be happy if they actually fixed the things we've identified in a reasonable amount of time.Dark_Grue wrote: <blockquote>I suspect that we are in violent agreement on these points. I think you do yourself disservice saying you're waiting "for your mana from heaven" - that comment wasn't directed at you, and doesn't characterize your efforts here. You're not waiting passively, letting your wallet bleed out. The people who are left here are the ones getting involved and trying to find a way to resolve the situation by whatever means they can find. That appears to be a hell of a lot more sincere than what SoE has shown to the community.Does what I've said constitute a rant? I hope not, but I suspect the only ones left around here to listen are the choir...</blockquote>It would seem that you are right in that we are in violent agreement. Although, I would prefer to simply be in agreement. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As for the "mana from heaven" comment, I do apologize that I misunderstood your target for that comment, but I'm sure you can understand why I thought that is was directed at me. Besides, anyone who has stuck around this forum since Novemeber trying to troubleshoot and get the website fixed would find it impossible to take such a comment lying down.Unfortunately, I would have to agree that the only ones left to hear this exchange are those that are already putting forth effort to effect some measure of progress to a service we would all love to see working as it should.

Dark_Grue

07-10-2007, 10:30 PM

Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Dark_Grue wrote: <blockquote>If the failure to communicate, address, and resolve issues lies with Jabru in your mind, then perhaps you should go with that feeling?</blockquote>[Heavily snipped...] Using my post as a springboard for this quote, especially the last sentence, is below the belt and serves as an attack on my credibility (which I do not appreciate). If your initial post was not aimed at me, then this was unnecessary.</blockquote>My point here was that I didn't introduce his name into this, nor advocate that he be jumped on (and I didn't see how that followed from what I said), and that if that was the first thing that popped to mind, then maybe Jabru really is (mis-)representing himself as the person responsible for resolving these issues, and he is failing to perform adequately in that role. In which case you should hold him personally responsible, and hence, "go with that feeling" (although I didn't mean you should or would necessarily attack him at a personal level in doing so). It was not an attack on your character, rather an observation that naming him would seem to indicate he's cast himself in a role of responsbility, for better or worse.Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>It would seem that you are right in that we are in violent agreement. Although, I would prefer to simply be in agreement. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As for the "mana from heaven" comment, I do apologize that I misunderstood your target for that comment, but I'm sure you can understand why I thought that is was directed at me. Besides, anyone who has stuck around this forum since Novemeber trying to troubleshoot and get the website fixed would find it impossible to take such a comment lying down. </blockquote>It wasn't intended to disparage you, and I apologize for creating any misunderstanding. It's obvious that we feel quite passionate about these issues. It would seem that my patience and temper is wearing quite thin, and I haven't been communicating as well as I would like in my zealous bursts of teh outragez. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Let's agree to agree then. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Thunderthyze

07-11-2007, 12:03 PM

Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>And what would you have me do then, DG? When Jabru finally decides to talk to us again after weeks of absence with NO progress, should I flip out on him like we all have in the past? (You know, back when enough people thought that things might change if they posted) Every time that happened it was even longer before we heard from him again and the suggestions from those that ranted were widely ignored, despite some of them being useful.</blockquote>Wouldn't do that mate, last time a guild mate of mine did that he was banned off these forums for 2 weeks.Incidentally, now that Web Guildchat is working (Hooray!) my new bete noire is now "Roster Updates - why is EQ2Players hopelessly outdated with regard to old guild accounts that haven't logged in for a while?" <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Hellswrath

07-12-2007, 10:29 AM

<cite>Dark_Grue wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's agree to agree then. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Agreed. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Frankrizzo Jerkyboy

07-12-2007, 11:49 AM

I have growing rage that the EoF achievement trees are not on EQ2 Players. Nothing new to say I guess, it just doesn't matter.