Post GU 36 AA critique

[Ordate]

<p>Ok.  So GU 36 has come and gone.  Changes have hit and we have started playing with our AAs.  (where is my [Removed for Content] card!  I don't want to pay the respec'er anymore!)  So now it is time to discuss our new line up...</p><p>Strength - Need some input.  I spec'ed off this line to try out some other lines.  Same with other 2 shaman in my guild.  Have the others out there noticed much of a difference with the amount the ae prevent procs?  How's the group ward?  Too much of a nerf to this line?</p><p>Agility - Same as it was.  No real comments needed.</p><p>Sta - The first push of this tree was "meh" at best.  What they changed it to right before it went live made it a pretty good tree.  Spec on tree 44772. 4th skill herbal expertise - This put my cures down to a mana cost of 28 I think.  Makes those suckers really spamable.  The casting time however didn't see as good of a reduction.  I havent figured out the exact formula yet.  But my casting is down to .58? I think.  As it reads I should be down to a .3 casting time.  This skill is good not amazing but not bad. 3rd skill - Originally on test this was just a bonus 1% dodge to yourself per rank.  Now its that + 2% double attack.  Needless to say, if you are a soloer or dps build this skill is a must have.  For a raider the value of this skill is very dependent on what roll you play in the raid. 2nd skill - some damage and daze.  Meh its damage, have to have a shield equiped though so if you are straight out dpsing can be a pain to use.  Need to really get that club from Treah or whatever that annoying trees name is on 3rd floor of EH. 5th skill - Ok so I guess the listened when people said that just an increase to this skills size will only have a meh effect... So they made it effect the whole group!  While the amazement of purple clubbing someone is taken away by this skill it gives you more hps for your entire group.  This skill went from meh to a mystic to wow thats sweet! because of our normal roles (offtank or dps group).  It being only single target was too much of a crap shot of who to put it on previously.</p><p>wis - They didnt change this skill line much prior to push to live.  Initial build 44682. 4th skill - 1% faster reuse per rank.  Awesome skill.  Some people complain that it is too little, but this is one of those areas where a little goes a long way.  That by the way is 8% to everything.  Stones from unrest to summon people, manastone, canni-hat, wards, heals, cures, hell I think my farts were casting more often... 3rd skill - A good amount of point boost.  This skill is truely a raiders skill.  Groupers might see use for really difficult zones like mm castle.  Otherwise our spells land easy enough.  It is an "ok" skill.  Honestly, cant decide if the points would be better spent here or in 2nd skill. 2nd skill - Increase a heal by x% +2% per point put in.  Not a bad skill.  I would love it if it effected wards and would make sure I had it in my build if it did... But as it doesnt, It becomes mostly a group heal amplifier.  Its a solid skill, and getting rid of the requirement for a symbol makes it more useable then it was, or at least less annoying. 5th skill - Mini-jesters.  This skill is really a powerful skill.  I know some people are moaning that it sucks because you can't use it on yourself but for anyone that consistently groups or raids it is an amazing skill.  It isn't as potent as jesters can be nor is it cross raid, but it does have the advantage that you can cast it and the person you cast it on has no immunity effect.  This means you can couple it with jesters or other to give someone really fast reuse and cast times to keep important skills going, up damage of someone by allowing them to "nuke" more, or keep nice debuffs up more often (brig debilitate? line)</p><p>int - Did not try this skill myself.  But this is the rough synopsis of some shamans I know. skill 4 - As it doesn't effect above level 70 - this skill is poopie for a raider and most grouping.  Curious to see what happens when they raise the skill cap.  Also hearing in general in pve enviroment its pretty useless and can't find where its actually doing anything.  Alas poor yoric I knew him well!  This skill is going to the graveyard.  Might be good for pvp but for us pve'ers *rasberries* skill 3 - Crit nuke chance - as most mystics are CA builds this skill really only enhances the casting procs we have and whenever we can't go in on a fight.  More beneficial to defilers but not horrid for a mystic. skill 2 - Ive heard mixed reviews of this skill.  Some people love it now some people are meh about it. skill 5 - To be determined.  Really this skill could be really good for a raider in that if it can strip the right buffs on a mob it will be a god send.  Otherwise meh.</p><p><b>So for us mystics what I see as the most likely builds for good benefit for points spent.</b></p><p>Agi 44(7-8 )(7-8 )2 Sta 44(6-8 )(6-8 )2</p><p>or</p><p>Agi 44(7-8 )(7-8 )2 wis 4(4-6)(4-6)82</p><p>or</p><p>agi-str build.  This build hasnt changed much so I want go over it.</p><p><b>for pure dps: </b>agi 48862 sta 488 +2 extra</p><p>or</p><p>agi 44862 sta 448 int 442 (or something similar)</p><p>Edit: [Removed for Content] turning my 8 ) into a smiley!</p>

[Ordate]

<p>Was going to edit my post more but decided to put the additional thoughts I have here.</p><p>The strength line.  Prior to the change and I will assume without any hard data on recent changes that on paper this line was and is extremely good.  The truth is however that with the number of bosses that knockback, charm, memwipe, adds spawning, dogdog dies often and takes a long time to get him back.  Was he good, ya while the dog was up and barking away prior to the change he could produce some amazing results.  Hard to quantify on paper as the ae prevent you couldn't really see it in a parse but occasionally you know wow that just saved me a lot of casting... But that is just the problem.  You can be a very concious person of when you send dogdog in from what position to get him on the mobs back... but with how many "other" things happen now he just gets eaten very frequently to a myriad of things.  His overall effectiveness drops off significantly.  If I could guarantee to have him up 100% of the time I would still be on this skill without looking back.  But as it is I'm not even sure it warrants a place in any "build" anymore.</p><p>The cures.  Recent changes has made it so some ae's that you could cure previously on an entire group/raid with only one single target cure has been changed.  You now need to have everyone cured either by a group cure or single target curing.  But most of those that I can think of were arcane or noxious... so while speeding up our cures for possibly curing an entire group in theory is good, at this moment I cant think of where on group curing this is truely beneficial. However, faster cures do help on things like mayongs de-level etc where you want to spam the hell out of a single target cure when its about time for that debuff to go on. The biggest benefit to this line however is the savings in power cost.  from 100ish (ministration takes it down some) to 28... That aint bad! I really wish they would do just a touch more with our EoF cure line.  Make us look at it and go Hmmmmm.  Add faster casting and reuse on our group cure, range on our moving cure all, do something with the regular cures themselves to make them more appealing.  That could very well convince me to switch off a melee build and be the pure healer again that I once was.</p><p>I know the last statement will probably be unpopular.  I have noticed a rise in the population of mystics since we really got the ability to be a melee build.  But I do personally miss the days of being just a strong healer.</p>

[Bobbette]

Ordate, thank you for posting this analysis of the various changes.  I found it really helpful.  I've looked at the changes but you brought up some things I hadn't considered, and now I'm looking at some of the AAs with a new perspective. As for the "pure healer" comment, it's not unpopular with me.  Yeah, the CA AAs have been really helpful for soloing and questing.  But at the same time, I would like the mystic side AAs to allow for 'pure healer' and 'melee' choices.  Maybe someday they'll tweak the lines to make them equally appealing, like they did with the KoS lines.

[Naemir]

<p>Great summary Ordate.</p><p>I tried speccing out of Str + Agi into Wis + Agi. Specced straight back to Str + Agi after soloing in nest for a bit. I really noticed the loss of healing from DogDog. I also seemed to be missing more often with my CAs for some reason.</p><p>DogDog still dies fast after GU36, but at least he is quicker to get back up now (no need to rebuff him).</p>

[Formangenavn]

<p>Why is it you feel agi+sta would give better dps then agi+str? Ordate?</p><p>I like doing damage, thats why I am asking. 2nd skill in str doesnt seem to different then sta. Also, doesnt 100% haste mean a delay i redused from say 2 sec to 1 sec? If that is the case, 16 haste = 16 % doubleattack in terms of dps. But then the haste affects the entire grp. </p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Dragonreal]

<cite>Ordate wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The strength line.  Prior to the change and I will assume without any hard data on recent changes that on paper this line was and is extremely good.  The truth is however that with the number of bosses that knockback, charm, memwipe, adds spawning, dogdog dies often and takes a long time to get him back.  Was he good, ya while the dog was up and barking away prior to the change he could produce some amazing results.  Hard to quantify on paper as the ae prevent you couldn't really see it in a parse but occasionally you know wow that just saved me a lot of casting... But that is just the problem.  You can be a very concious person of when you send dogdog in from what position to get him on the mobs back... but with how many "other" things happen now he just gets eaten very frequently to a myriad of things.  His overall effectiveness drops off significantly.  If I could guarantee to have him up 100% of the time I would still be on this skill without looking back.  But as it is I'm not even sure it warrants a place in any "build" anymore.</p></blockquote> Something I thought about yesterday concerning the dog.. what if they just moved him from the first AA you HAVE to get (regardless of whether you can actually use the dog or not) down to the first AA in the str line (removing leg bite completely)? Have each rank reduce his cast time by 1s or increase his hp or something and then give shammys a new 1st AA that ALL shamans could make use of in some way regardless of their build. That way, the ones who like/want the dog could have it (and get something new via a new starter AA) and those who are sick of the dog or are pvp or just hate having half their AAs riding on tissue paper could just do without it  completely instead of HAVING to buy it only to bury it in the back of their spellbooks.

[Ordate]

<cite>Formangenavn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why is it you feel agi+sta would give better dps then agi+str? Ordate?</p><p>I like doing damage, thats why I am asking. 2nd skill in str doesnt seem to different then sta. Also, doesnt 100% haste mean a delay i redused from say 2 sec to 1 sec? If that is the case, 16 haste = 16 % doubleattack in terms of dps. But then the haste affects the entire grp. </p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> For dps the strength line gives these skills - leg bite, haste 16.  (and arguably extra strength)  Dogdog is still useable for a little extra dps by non-str builders.  He just cant be used quite as much.  But then again, dogdog has a nasty habit of dying even if you are str tree... As for the second skills, honestly, I have not sat down and figured out on the second skill of each tree how much dps each one gives comparatively.  That aside the bases for why I feel sta > str for dps:</p><p>Haste isn't calculated on a 1 to 1 scale.  It is like all other stats on a curve.  In the case of haste and dps buffs this curve is capped at 200 "points" which gives you a haste of 100%.  Ergo a weapon swings twice as fast when you have 200 haste.  So while dogdog gives haste of 16 to all group members this doesnt neccesarily equate to 16% hasted. Second, haste is found on items that are available to us and other classes relatively easy.  However, double attack does not come on any items granted to us, also it is a buff from a very few select classes and even those classes have to select particular aa.  Rarity is an important part of this decision.  This is further impacted by how the proportions stack up.  There was a post long ago that talked about how 50% haste and 50% dps is far greater then 100% in either one of them alone.  Pardon me for not digging up that post or redo'ing the math, it is a little complex to explain, but suffice it to say that the sum is not equal to the whole.  This being said haste IS important.  If you are doing a dps build you need to make sure you have as much haste AND dps mods as possible.  (again for pure dps.  I would recomend against some choices for a mixed build that I would suggest for a pure dps build)  But you get more return by climbing all mods at the same time vs. spiking one mod hire.</p><p>As for haste effecting the entire group.  There is a good chance that the benefit of 16% haste to an entire group is greater then what is recieved on the sta line.  The builds I was proposing however were focused strictly on the mystics dps alone and not group nor raid friendly.</p><p>New edit:</p><p>What I said above in this post is probably not correct.  I was thinking on haste and past posts when they were putting the changes in.  I think at one time it was going to scale to 100% haste at 200 haste, but I think it was changed to like 133% haste at 200 haste.  So my first point might very well be invalid.  The second point on, however, still remains valid and are the main reasons that I view sta > str.</p>

[Bobbette]

After reading your analysis and considering the trees for a bit, I decided to respec my mystic.  I actually chose a combination that Ordate didn't recommend.  I've had a love-hate relationship with the idea of a melee'ing mystic.  On the one hand, leveling my mystic pre-CA AAs was like watching grass grow and the CAs plus the agi line really helped change that.  On the other hand, I have a melee'ing class and what I really wanted in my mystic was a healer. So I decided to split the difference and try something unusual.  I went the stamina line figuring the double attack and daze would help me with solo quests/writs but the rest of the line helped me be a healer.  Then I went the wisdom line because everything in there helps me be a better mystic. Losing the strength line was a hard decision for me.  But my assassin friend said the 16% haste wasn't enough for him to miss.  The dogdog dies quite a bit due to the ward.  Foresight is nice but it's a crap shoot and not even existant if the dogdog has died.  So I decided to experiment with a dogdog-less build and see how it works in the new world. I did all these changes yesterday, so I haven't had a chance to really test it out.  I may find that the strength line is too good to lose and go back.  But I'm excited at the prospect of a more healer'ish spec, that hopefully provides a bit of solo'ability to myself (and I mean a little), that for the first time in ages isn't pet dependent.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ordate]

<p>Let us know how it goes velda.</p><p>I used to also be of the mind-set of a healer strictly.  Sure I would walk up to a mob and whack on it if I could and do horrid damage, but that wasnt my job.  When kos came out I originaly built my character str and sta then went str and int.  Only with the release of EoF have I looked at the agility line.  Honestly Im going to take what tools are given to me and try and provide the most "benefit" that I can to the force I am with.  Yes I used to min max most of my D&D characters <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I must say though, since going agility, I have come to appreciate heal crits a lot more then I used to.  I had much of the same mentality as banditman/sudedor had in that they werent the greatest thing for a ward slinger.  But since having them for a while, I've noticed the raw amount of healing I can do in a non mt group has deffinately gone up vs. the amount of damage the dogdog ward could prevent.  I think if you are a MT mystic then dogdog still will do a bit more healing if you can keep him alive.</p><p>Anyway, let us know how that combo of the two lines go.  If I may ask, how are you spec'ing your EoF tree if you aren't going crits?</p>

[Formangenavn]

Thanks a lot for your reply Ordate. I can understand every point you made, but I'll stick with STR until I see capping out on haste becomes a problem. Two more AA and I will have AOE immunity. Hopefully dog will die a lot less then.

[Bobbette]

<cite>Ordate wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If I may ask, how are you spec'ing your EoF tree if you aren't going crits?</p></blockquote> I have the buff line to Ancestry (of course).  And I have the combat arts to whatever that bottom ability is (cannot remember it's name atm and too lazy to look it up).  I do like the combat arts for soloing because of the interrupt factor. Still haven't had a chance to take her through her paces (darn that real life).  Maybe tonight I can get her out and do some soloing.

[Bobbette]

Well, after soloing my mystic a bit, I've decided I miss my 100% melee crit AA.  I can kill things in a reasonable time but noticeably slower than I could before.  It was almost (but not quite) flashbacks to the days pre-combat arts. I didn't do any form of statistical trial besides run out there and see how she 'feels' to me.  I did watch the orange numbers flying over the mob's head and it was significantly less than before.  When I solo, she uses a Blackscale Maul and I'd gotten used to seeing 545+ crit numbers.  The other night I was seeing 300s, 400s, some 200s even. I plan to respec her back to the agility line but I haven't decided which of the other lines to keep yet ... stamina or wisdom.  Stamina would be nice to have the double attack on top of the crits and tribal rage plus fast/cheap cures.  Wisdom is nice for Ritual, less resisted debuffing, faster reuse and Alacrity.  Tho to me, Alacrity seems a double-edged sword ... it's up every 1.24 mins (currently) so I'm going to be bardish & spamming a buff over and over -- I'm not sure I'll like doing that, especially if I'm a solo healer in a group. If anyone has Alacrity and can tell me how they use it so I can get an idea of what it'll look like to run with that line, I'd appreciate it.