Would it be too much to ask to make the Primitive Instinct line group wide?

[GinFan]

<p>It is the only offensive buff we give.  Making it group wide would improve our raid appeal, fit in nicely with the mellee Warden spec and not step on another classes toes.  I doubt it will unbalance us for PVP (though it was sworn that pvp would not effect pve choices<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)  It should probably have a concentration cost added to it.</p><p> Come on Devs, it easy, do it, you know you want to...</p>

[Isard]

<p>Would be nice.</p><p>Who do we have to bribe to make it happen?</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

I'd argue that it'd make us overpowered....but that said, I'd still like to see it.

[Leemeg]

It would be nice, but I fear if that is implemented, the buff will be lower. If I could choose between the current strength and single target, or a lower strength group buff. I would choose the single target one.

[Agaxiq]

Yeah I dont see them doing that without making the various other self-buffs that healers get have the same effect. Only thing I would like to see is some of our single target buffs changed from <span style="color: #009900">Group Friend </span>to <span style="color: #006600">Raid or Group Friend</span>. agressiv

[IA~CHAOS]

The idea sounds nice, but then we would have to make Agitate or whatever the fury proc is group wide too.  And I would like to see our buffs stay in group so we actually still have the MT grp as OUR house. 

[Veedublya]

<p>I like the idea of having that as a group buff, sure other healers would complain but they would have no reason to at all since every other healer class actually have usefull group buffs.</p><p>Agitate as a group buff would be completely over-powered and pretty much useless since furies are usually in a caster group and not too many casters melee.</p>

[Skivley101]

I think it would be nice to make it like Aspect of the hawk .....take one concentration slot for each person its on ...But add something else to it ...like a small Str buff.   I think that would keep the balance in the game.  And we could mix and match buffs better when there are stacking issues.

[GinFan]

<p>Since we haven't any dps, haste, int, str or proc buffs, our only offensive offering is our single target +hit and some increased power pools.  If our +hit became group but took away one of concentration slots, it would serve to balance us, making us more on par with other healers.  Would they complain, probably, but it wouldn't be because we were overpowered but because we would be better able to compete for raid spots.</p><p>There have been a lot of complaints about lack of str buffs.  Instead, I would prefer to make our existing +hit more viable.  As a side benefit, devs, it would be easy to code and just sneak in (hint hint).  </p><p>[Dev you is growing very sleepy, you are in a comfortable happy place, surrounded by your favorite things, this a peaceful happy place where primitive instinct is a group buff, you want to help wardens, because doing so makes you so happy, so at peace, you will bring it up at the next staff meeting with confidence, you are good looking, all the other staffers  like you and admire you, they will think primitive instict as a group buff is a wonderful idea, you are so smart, they wish they were more like you, you are so cool, so hip, so capable, you have access to production code....] </p>

[GinFan]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it would be nice to make it like Aspect of the hawk .....take one concentration slot for each person its on ...But add something else to it ...like a small Str buff.   I think that would keep the balance in the game.  And we could mix and match buffs better when there are stacking issues.</blockquote> It would have to be considerable better then it is in order to do as you suggest imo, or else it would diminish us.  We would have to drop a group buff or Aspect off of somebody simply to be equal to our current state. 

[Skivley101]

<cite>GinFan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it would be nice to make it like Aspect of the hawk .....take one concentration slot for each person its on ...But add something else to it ...like a small Str buff.   I think that would keep the balance in the game.  And we could mix and match buffs better when there are stacking issues.</blockquote> It would have to be considerable better then it is in order to do as you suggest imo, or else it would diminish us.  We would have to drop a group buff or Aspect off of somebody simply to be equal to our current state. </blockquote><p> I dont think it would diminish us ...just give us more choices .....for example ...put primitive on some one instead of Aspect ....Or when we are in group with another priest ...every priest has the same group physical mitigation buff (and they dont stack)with a different secondary component, the secondary isnt all that great , plus it isnt always needed. Our group wisdom doesnt stack with furies ....and the group agi isnt really that make or break . </p><p>So in essence it would just give more diversity to buffing.  And solo, we have the extra concentration to spare anyways.</p><p>Not sure what or how much to add to it ....But I propose 75 str ....at its highest lvl master 1</p>

[GinFan]

<p>I would like the option to cast an extra Instinct vs. an extra Aspect as you suggest, but the problem is that the first one isn't free, that's why I said it would diminish us.  Right now it is 3 group, 2 Aspect and 1 conc free Instinct.  Your suggestion leaves us with 3 group, 1 Aspect and 1 Instinct (with the ability to mix it up of course)--we lose 1 total buff in that plan.   Now if it had an extra 75 str as you suggest, it would be worth the loss <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Fromingo]

I am all for group buff with concentration that is the same power lvl as it's current state.  I bet my group/raid would not mind losing 1 aspect of hawk on someone for that. 

[Skivley101]

<cite>GinFan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I would like the option to cast and extra Instinct vs. an extra Aspect as you suggest, but the problem is that the first one isn't free, that's why I said it would diminish us.  Right now it is 3 group, 2 Aspect and conc free Instinct.  Your suggestion leaves us with 3 group, 1 Aspect and 1 Instinct (with the ability to mix it up)--we lose 1 total buff in that plan. </p></blockquote><p> Not adding the str to it ....wich is what alot of wardens want (except the casters) ....and also dont alot of Wardens call our buffs useless.</p><p>so why not drop the most useless for this one.</p><p>Im sorry ....But i just dont see making it group wide with concentration and nothing added Better ....But some how it does seem unbalancing.</p><p>So maybe my proposal is just as unbalanceing.   **shrug** IDK .....just the way i see it?    But it is nice to be able to hash this stuff out sometimes isnt it? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[GinFan]

<p>I updated the str comment while you were typing Skivley<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>The reason I like the group version w/ conc slot is all those pesky level 75 x4 epics.  The scout that gets my Instinct hits for a much higher % on the parse.  It would be nice to help out all melee including myself now that I've finally given in and gone melee like SOE wants me to <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I brought it up because it seems a viable change and is more focussed discussion than a general "what would you like to see changed" post.  Besides is plants subliminal suggestion into the Devs' brains [Wardens are melee, we should give them melee buffs, we should help our friends the Wardens...]</p>

[Veedublya]

<p>I dont find the idea unbalancing at all... We need some sort of utility</p><p>Again furies are casters, therefore they have high int buffs that make them fit perfeclty with casters and such, since wardens are supposed to be the melee form of a druid it would be nice if they gave us some nice melee buffs for us and the group. It makes perfect sence to me and im not even melee spec'd <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Skivley101]

<p>well i guess from a raid perspective ....your group proposal would kinda put us on par with fury int buffing ....Us for mele ...them for casters.</p><p>Hmm ....well worth some thought <img src="/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Veedublya]

<p>Its really not asking much, tho the idea of primitive instinct being made a group buff may be a little much, i'm all for the idea of making aspect of the hawk a STR/power buff than and WIS/power buff. Even if you were not a melee spec'd warden, it would still give us a nice spot in the scout grp for raids which is fine by me. Im not melee spec'd but would gladly give up 105 wis for 105 str just so i could be wanted in a group for raids...</p>

[GinFan]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its really not asking much, tho the idea of primitive instinct being made a group buff may be a little much, i'm all for the idea of making aspect of the hawk a STR/power buff than and WIS/power buff. Even if you were not a melee spec'd warden, it would still give us a nice spot in the scout grp for raids which is fine by me. Im not melee spec'd but would gladly give up 105 wis for 105 str just so i could be wanted in a group for raids...</p></blockquote> Personally, I'd rather they didn't change our defensive buffs into offensive buffs.  I think our defensive nature defines us--if they want to improve them, that would be great, but I wouldn't change their intent.  What I like about a Primitive Instinct change is that it is simple.  It makes our one and only offensive buff more viable, but doesn't change our identity.  Because it is our one and only offensive buff, I do not see it as something that would push the universe out of balance.

[Veedublya]

<cite>GinFan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its really not asking much, tho the idea of primitive instinct being made a group buff may be a little much, i'm all for the idea of making aspect of the hawk a STR/power buff than and WIS/power buff. Even if you were not a melee spec'd warden, it would still give us a nice spot in the scout grp for raids which is fine by me. Im not melee spec'd but would gladly give up 105 wis for 105 str just so i could be wanted in a group for raids...</p></blockquote> Personally, I'd rather they didn't change our defensive buffs into offensive buffs.  I think our defensive nature defines us--if they want to improve them, that would be great, but I wouldn't change their intent.  What I like about a Primitive Instinct change is that it is simple.  It makes our one and only offensive buff more viable, but doesn't change our identity.  Because it is our one and only offensive buff, I do not see it as something that would push the universe out of balance.</blockquote>I never said anything about changing defensive buffs to offensive buffs... Unless you consider changing 105 wis to 105 str as a defense to offense change, but i would consider an extra 300-500 resists from 105 wis a very weak defensive buff

[Skivley101]

<p>Veedublya wrote : but i would consider an extra 300-500 resists from 105 wis a very weak defensive buff </p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>Well considering the secondary on two of the buffs adds in only 250 ish on 1 stat group wide ....its not that weak comparitively speaking to give that much accross the board to one individual.  Except of course that diminishes with particular stats that they have up high. And the last time i was checking(6 months or more) wis never gave more than {2.4 mit/per wis pt} on everything accross the board except physical.</p><p>But that brings up another thought ... they should switch the health buff and magic buff we have ...so health goes with Physical mit and magic with elemental.    Then picking wich one to not use wouldnt be that hard???   Or does another priest have that combo allready?</p><p>Im not real familar with other preists buffs & what all stacks and what doesnt.  But maybe they should take a serious look at Buffing in general between healers.  Add in more buff preplaning as part of the strat...and take out some of the redundancies in group/raid... not giving us more at once ...But more diversity in buffing combinations. </p>

[Veedublya]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well considering the secondary on two of the buffs adds in only 250 ish on 1 stat group wide ....its not that weak comparitively speaking to give that much accross the board to one individual.  Except of course that diminishes with particular stats that they have up high. And the last time i was checking(6 months or more) wis never gave more than {2.4 mit/per wis pt} on everything accross the board except physical.</p><p><span style="color: #cc3333">Nod, I couldnt remember the exact amount of resists the 105 wis gives but knew it was around 300</span></p><p>But that brings up another thought ... they should switch the health buff and magic buff we have ...so health goes with Physical mit and magic with elemental.    Then picking wich one to not use wouldnt be that hard???   Or does another priest have that combo allready?</p><p><span style="color: #cc0033">I think they should just get rid of the magic buff attached to the mit and replace it with health, the amount of health we give to the group is beyond pitiful compared to a shammy or cleric. I know my Defiler can buff the tank around 2.5k HP and my Temp can do around 2k HP (rough estimate)... while my warden sits at almost 300 HP</span></p><p>Im not real familar with other preists buffs & what all stacks and what doesnt.  But maybe they should take a serious look at Buffing in general between healers.  Add in more buff preplaning as part of the strat...and take out some of the redundancies in group/raid... not giving us more at once ...But more diversity in buffing combinations.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0033">Totally Agree, I havent spent the time to see what does or does not stack between my 3 healers but cant really since my Defiler and Templar are on a acct and my Warden is on another acct. Only thing i know is that my warden's mit buff does not stack with a temp and defiler in the same group.</span></p></blockquote>

[Skivley101]

<p>VW wrote:    {hope you dont mind me shortening your name}</p><p>I think they should just get rid of the magic buff attached to the mit and replace it with health, the amount of health we give to the group is beyond pitiful compared to a shammy or cleric. I know my Defiler can buff the tank around 2.5k HP and my Temp can do around 2k HP (rough estimate)... while my warden sits at almost 300 HP</p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>Aggree totally on getting rid of an almost worthless magic buff ....But  are you saying to give us 2 diff health buffs?</p><p>And compared to other priests ....even the amount combined would be pitiful ....Hence total Revampamation <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Alao]

<p>Why not make Primitive insticnt work like the fury buff.. they can put it on 3 targets?  why not let us do that.  That would be acceptable imo.</p><p> As to giving us more boost to HP.. yea I agree.  warden buffs arn't really that impressive.  Like our see invis buff why not let that affect the group aswell.</p><p> But I'm sure I'd get to eat my shoes before I see a warden spell revamp anytime soon.</p>

[Veedublya]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Aggree totally on getting rid of an almost worthless magic buff ....But  are you saying to give us 2 diff health buffs?</p><p>And compared to other priests ....even the amount combined would be pitiful ....Hence total Revampamation <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> Sure why not? I think 2 would be fair since my temp and defiler have 3 HP buffs each

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I dont find the idea unbalancing at all... We need some sort of utility</p></blockquote><p> AMEN!</p><p>And since the P.I. buff is a melee buff anyway, why not make it a group wide option in the Melee Spec line, like a last option down that side of the tree? </p><p>And Group SoW option down the Movement Line of the tree? </p>

[Veedublya]

MysidiaDrakkenbane wrote: <blockquote><p>AMEN!</p><p>And since the P.I. buff is a melee buff anyway, why not make it a group wide option in the Melee Spec line, like a last option down that side of the tree? </p><p>And Group SoW option down the Movement Line of the tree? </p></blockquote><p>I think it should just be a group wide buff period without having to be AA spec'd, group SoW isnt that big of a deal imo, not a long recast so doesnt take too much time to SoW an entire grp.</p><p>I think that wardens should be for melee groups as fury's are for caster groups and i see 2 <u>fair</u> ways of doing that...</p><p>1) Primitive Instinct... Should be a group buff, but cut down the skill itself from a single target +65 C/S/P to a group wide +30 C/S/P or so... +65 is overkill and i think a +30ish groupwide would be much nicer for a melee group.</p><p>2) Aspect of the Hawk... Should be made a STR/Power buff instead of a WIS/Power buff, Furies have a INT buff since they are "caster druids", so Wardens should have a STR buff since they are "melee druids". </p>

[Fromingo]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote>are for caster groups and i see 2 <u>fair</u> ways of doing that... <p>1) Primitive Instinct... Should be a group buff, but cut down the skill itself from a single target +65 C/S/P to a group wide +30 C/S/P or so... +65 is overkill and i think a +30ish groupwide would be much nicer for a melee group.</p><p>2) Aspect of the Hawk... Should be made a STR/Power buff instead of a WIS/Power buff, Furies have a INT buff since they are "caster druids", so Wardens should have a STR buff since they are "melee druids".</p></blockquote><p>1)   These changes are never as simple as you think.  Cutting down the buff by 35 points would [Removed for Content] the warden DPS.   If they do that then they need to add a skill+ to our endline EOF melee AA because the CA's from there have a lower chance to hit than the CA's from melee classes and we don't have an offensive stance.   The +65 skill mitigates that so we don't wiff like mad and if you played a melee warden pre-lvl 26 you know how frustrating the wiffs were.    So if SOE lowers it group wide then they need to add a skill to our self only Crit AA at the end of EOF melee line to offset the loss from a personal perspective.  I'd be fine with that.</p><p>2)   Personally I like the wisdom and so does my MT.  Plus this would effect non-melee wardens too much.  They don't care about strength.    While I'd like to have a strength buff I don't see it happening.  </p>

[Veedublya]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1)   These changes are never as simple as you think.  Cutting down the buff by 35 points would [Removed for Content] the warden DPS.   If they do that then they need to add a skill+ to our endline EOF melee AA because the CA's from there have a lower chance to hit than the CA's from melee classes and we don't have an offensive stance.   The +65 skill mitigates that so we don't wiff like mad and if you played a melee warden pre-lvl 26 you know how frustrating the wiffs were.    So if SOE lowers it group wide then they need to add a skill to our self only Crit AA at the end of EOF melee line to offset the loss from a personal perspective.  I'd be fine with that.</p><p>2)   Personally I like the wisdom and so does my MT.  Plus this would effect non-melee wardens too much.  They don't care about strength.    While I'd like to have a strength buff I don't see it happening.  </p></blockquote><p> I know changes are not easy but its not that hard, it is do-able and isnt an unfair request.</p><p>1) Cutting 35 to your offensive skills is not going to [Removed for Content] dps, +65 is way over kill. +65 to your offensive skills means you are hitting, what? 13 levels higher? That is way more than needed, even +30 is 6 levels more which isnt bad, maybe around +40 to the group would be a good number, that would increase your offensive skills by 8 levels.</p><p>2) Not trying to attack ya on this one, but I dont know a single tank that would prefer 109 wis over 109 str, 109 wis will give the tank around 250 resists, 109 str will up their power pool and up their dps. Also, not very many raid guilds have wardens in the MT grp, most have em in the melee dps grp or OT grp. Having that str buff will have us a solid spot in the melee grp because we will actually offer some utility.</p>

[Lilj]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>I think it should just be a group wide buff period without having to be AA spec'd, group SoW isnt that big of a deal imo, not a long recast so doesnt take too much time to SoW an entire grp.</p><p>I think that wardens should be for melee groups as fury's are for caster groups and i see 2 <u>fair</u> ways of doing that...</p><p>1) Primitive Instinct... Should be a group buff, but cut down the skill itself from a single target +65 C/S/P to a group wide +30 C/S/P or so... +65 is overkill and i think a +30ish groupwide would be much nicer for a melee group.</p><p>2) Aspect of the Hawk... Should be made a STR/Power buff instead of a WIS/Power buff, Furies have a INT buff since they are "caster druids", so Wardens should have a STR buff since they are "melee druids". </p></blockquote>*Sigh* not this discussion again (about changing out buffs to suit the melee'ers). I know some wardens think wardens are destined to be melees and all our buffs should therefore be focused on that playstyle. Please, some of us are not melee spec'ed and that change to Aspect of the Hawk would be really bad for us. Since both the melee and the ranged warden can use the WIS why not let it stay there? Besides WIS suits the whole 'defensive' druid rather well. I don't agree wardens are 'melee' druids. As I see it we can choose between different playstyle and melee is one of them. I can understand why some would like Primitive to be a group buff. I'm just not sure I would like to pay for it by making it do less. I prefer it to be single target and with a high number. But I can see why others would prefer a smaller number and then have it group wide. I think we as a warden community should be careful about wishing for our spells to be changed to suit specific playstyles (ranged, melee, solo, raid, casual, you name it). If you raid a lot you want one thing, if you mostly play in smaller groups and more casual you want another thing.

[Prrasha]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>+65 to your offensive skills means you are hitting, what? 13 levels higher? </p></blockquote>Untrue.  Hasn't worked that way since, oh, before LU13?  Many moons, anyway.  SoE stopped doing the math this way when raids were building main tanks around +defense and +parry and trivializing encounters due to raid mobs being completely unable to land autoattacks. My own newbie paladin was taking out green ^^^ Names with app3 skills and handcrafted gear (no app4s or imbues in the game yet) just due to his defensive stance "greying out" the mobs. Now it caps out at (your level x 1.5), so there's useful skill buffs all the way to +105.  My main's a WIS-line paladin, which gives him a +34-to-everything-offensive-except-ranged skill buff.  His autoattack hit rate going through Unrest as MT was 51% zonewide, with his slashing skill sitting at +28 above par.  (+34 slash from self, +12 slash from a Templar, -18 for defensive stance).  Going through with the same character as "backup healer", and thus in offensive stance slightly over half of the time, his autoattack hit rate went up to 61% with a skill swapping between +77 above par and +16 above par.  (+34 self buff, mostly +43 offensive stance, sometimes -18 defensive stance).  The first seven fights, where I'm sure I was in offense stance the whole time (but may not have always been "behind the mob" avoiding block/parry), I was 99/123 autoattack, for an 80% hit rate.  (I'm leaving out potential +slash gear, since I've swapped some gear around since then, but it wouldn't have been more than another +5 worth.) So, don't discount +skill above the first 30 or 40 points.  It still adds up, even to +77 and beyond.

[Fromingo]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know changes are not easy but its not that hard, it is do-able and isnt an unfair request. <p>1) Cutting 35 to your offensive skills is not going to [Removed for Content] dps, +65 is way over kill. +65 to your offensive skills means you are hitting, what? 13 levels higher? That is way more than needed, even +30 is 6 levels more which isnt bad, maybe around +40 to the group would be a good number, that would increase your offensive skills by 8 levels.</p><p>2) Not trying to attack ya on this one, but I dont know a single tank that would prefer 109 wis over 109 str, 109 wis will give the tank around 250 resists, 109 str will up their power pool and up their dps. Also, not very many raid guilds have wardens in the MT grp, most have em in the melee dps grp or OT grp. Having that str buff will have us a solid spot in the melee grp because we will actually offer some utility.</p></blockquote><p>1) Prrasha answered that one nicely. </p><p>2) Tanks need to survive as much if not more than they need DPS. All those little resist boosts add up and help. Our guild may not do things the way 'most' guilds do but we have our own style. Our MT may not use buckler line, we like warden in MT group and most of our priests are DPS specced but hey we kick major Avatar, Thex, Woushie, ect butt so whatever we do isn't holding us back.   BTW since most guilds can't do those mobs/raids maybe it's good we don't do things like most guilds. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[GinFan]

<p><b><i>Dang double post.</i></b></p>

[GinFan]

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>*Sigh* not this discussion again (about changing out buffs to suit the melee'ers). I know some wardens think wardens are destined to be melees and all our buffs should therefore be focused on that playstyle. </blockquote><p> I couldn't agree more.  My original suggestion was to simply take our only offensive buff and change it from a single target buff to a group wide buff which I believe would provide balance and improved raid desirability while not impacting solo balance.  Personally, I wouldn't want us steered more towards melee, an option I have disliked from the beginning, but rather, improve us rather than change us so that by default, we become more desirable for melee group healing.</p><p> Improve don't change!!!  </p>

[Fromingo]

Agree.  Lets leave Hawk the way it is.  Not every warden is melee specced and they like hawk the way it is and many of the melee specced wardens like it that way too. I really do want to see some change to the Primal Instinct line though.  I'd really like to be able to keep it on me and at least one other with the current skill levels. If SOE does make it group wide I don't mind if they tone it down as long as they add a proportionate amount of skill+ to the final AA in the EOF melee line so that we melee wardens can maintain the same level of skill buff we have when it's on us now.

[Avanya]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote>MysidiaDrakkenbane wrote: <blockquote><p>AMEN!</p><p>And since the P.I. buff is a melee buff anyway, why not make it a group wide option in the Melee Spec line, like a last option down that side of the tree? </p><p>And Group SoW option down the Movement Line of the tree? </p></blockquote><p>I think it should just be a group wide buff period without having to be AA spec'd, group SoW isnt that big of a deal imo, not a long recast so doesnt take too much time to SoW an entire grp.</p><p>I think that wardens should be for melee groups as fury's are for caster groups and i see 2 <u>fair</u> ways of doing that...</p><p>1) Primitive Instinct... Should be a group buff, but cut down the skill itself from a single target +65 C/S/P to a group wide +30 C/S/P or so... +65 is overkill and i think a +30ish groupwide would be much nicer for a melee group.</p><p>2) Aspect of the Hawk... Should be made a STR/Power buff instead of a WIS/Power buff, Furies have a INT buff since they are "caster druids", so Wardens should have a STR buff since they are "melee druids". </p></blockquote><p>Ummm no....</p><p>I made a warden to be a healer....if I want to do uber melee, I'll play my monk.  Changing Aspect of the Hawk would certainly cause me to shelve my warden forever.  I'd rather go back to being a fury.  No offense guys but this "melee warden" thing is really getting over board.  We're a priest class, not a scout or fighter.  I want my wis since I actually like to HEAL in groups and raids.  Devs, please don't think these people are speaking for all wardens, because they most assuredly are not. </p>

[Avanya]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1)   These changes are never as simple as you think.  Cutting down the buff by 35 points would [Removed for Content] the warden DPS.   If they do that then they need to add a skill+ to our endline EOF melee AA because the CA's from there have a lower chance to hit than the CA's from melee classes and we don't have an offensive stance.   The +65 skill mitigates that so we don't wiff like mad and if you played a melee warden pre-lvl 26 you know how frustrating the wiffs were.    So if SOE lowers it group wide then they need to add a skill to our self only Crit AA at the end of EOF melee line to offset the loss from a personal perspective.  I'd be fine with that.</p><p>2)   Personally I like the wisdom and so does my MT.  Plus this would effect non-melee wardens too much.  They don't care about strength.    While I'd like to have a strength buff I don't see it happening.  </p></blockquote><p> I know changes are not easy but its not that hard, it is do-able and isnt an unfair request.</p><p>1) Cutting 35 to your offensive skills is not going to [Removed for Content] dps, +65 is way over kill. +65 to your offensive skills means you are hitting, what? 13 levels higher? That is way more than needed, even +30 is 6 levels more which isnt bad, maybe around +40 to the group would be a good number, that would increase your offensive skills by 8 levels.</p><p>2) Not trying to attack ya on this one, but I dont know a single tank that would prefer 109 wis over 109 str, 109 wis will give the tank around 250 resists, 109 str will up their power pool and up their dps. Also, not very many raid guilds have wardens in the MT grp, most have em in the melee dps grp or OT grp. Having that str buff will have us a solid spot in the melee grp because we will actually offer some utility.</p></blockquote>Interesting...every raid I have ever been on on my server, guild or non guild, ALWAYS has a cleric/shaman/WARDEN in the MT group.  Not sure why your experiences would be so different.

[Avanya]

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>I think it should just be a group wide buff period without having to be AA spec'd, group SoW isnt that big of a deal imo, not a long recast so doesnt take too much time to SoW an entire grp.</p><p>I think that wardens should be for melee groups as fury's are for caster groups and i see 2 <u>fair</u> ways of doing that...</p><p>1) Primitive Instinct... Should be a group buff, but cut down the skill itself from a single target +65 C/S/P to a group wide +30 C/S/P or so... +65 is overkill and i think a +30ish groupwide would be much nicer for a melee group.</p><p>2) Aspect of the Hawk... Should be made a STR/Power buff instead of a WIS/Power buff, Furies have a INT buff since they are "caster druids", so Wardens should have a STR buff since they are "melee druids". </p></blockquote>*Sigh* not this discussion again (about changing out buffs to suit the melee'ers). I know some wardens think wardens are destined to be melees and all our buffs should therefore be focused on that playstyle. Please, some of us are not melee spec'ed and that change to Aspect of the Hawk would be really bad for us. Since both the melee and the ranged warden can use the WIS why not let it stay there? Besides WIS suits the whole 'defensive' druid rather well. I don't agree wardens are 'melee' druids. As I see it we can choose between different playstyle and melee is one of them. I can understand why some would like Primitive to be a group buff. I'm just not sure I would like to pay for it by making it do less. I prefer it to be single target and with a high number. But I can see why others would prefer a smaller number and then have it group wide. I think we as a warden community should be careful about wishing for our spells to be changed to suit specific playstyles (ranged, melee, solo, raid, casual, you name it). If you raid a lot you want one thing, if you mostly play in smaller groups and more casual you want another thing. </blockquote>Amen Liljna....couldn't have said it better.

[Veedublya]

Arani@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>Ummm no....</p><p>I made a warden to be a healer....if I want to do uber melee, I'll play my monk.  Changing Aspect of the Hawk would certainly cause me to shelve my warden forever.  I'd rather go back to being a fury.  No offense guys but this "melee warden" thing is really getting over board.  We're a priest class, not a scout or fighter.  I want my wis since I actually like to HEAL in groups and raids.  Devs, please don't think these people are speaking for all wardens, because they most assuredly are not. </p></blockquote> I think everyone makes a warden to be a healer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And I dont know why everyone keeps bringing up the "melee warden" arguement, not once did I say i wanted this to up my dps, im not even melee spec'd!

[Fromingo]

Arani@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Amen Liljna....couldn't have said it better. </blockquote><p> No but you could have said it earlier.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Now the thread is derailed back to changing Hawk.  </p><p>Hawks stays the same. </p><p>Lets get some support on Primitive Instinct line being made into a group wide buff at the same level of skill.  Or if group wide version needs to be lowered then the melee warden line also gets a personal +offensive skill boost to keep their own skill at least the same.</p>

[Veedublya]

<p>/nod Fromingo</p><p>I think making that a group buff would be a great change, get on it SOE!</p>

[Prrasha]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Lets get some support on Primitive Instinct line being made into a group wide buff at the same level of skill.  Or if group wide version needs to be lowered then the melee warden line also gets a personal +offensive skill boost to keep their own skill at least the same.</p></blockquote>I'm happy with Instinct the way it is.  We don't need a poor copy (or even an identical copy) of the dirge groupwide combat skill buff. If you think you'll get a groupwide version at its current power level, keep dreaming.  I think wardens are way behind the other priests currently, and even I wouldn't give them that.  I wouldn't give any class that. I am in favor, however, of an AA-line-based skill increase.  The other two "melee healer" specs, Inquis and Mystic, have AA self-only skill buffs.  When they go melee, they can always hit. A melee-line Warden in a normal group, or the MT group of a raid, will probably be expected to put Instinct on the MT... and thus [Removed for Content] his own melee output (including heal procs and such.)  This leaves the "DPS melee priest" doing less DPS than the "buffing melee priest" or "debuffing melee priest."  Silly. Yes, we could still put Instinct on ourselves to over-cap our melee skill.  Big deal, druids are the DPS priests; we don't have the same buff-and-debuff ability of the other priest types, and solo melee-line damage is currently about the same across the board (if anything, the platemailed Inquisitors are in the lead, since their buff skills were largely designed for melee DPS even before the AA line got added, and with the right weapon, critical hits = everything.  The DPS priests get 75%, the non-DPS priests get 100%.  Hm.).  I don't see any melee Wardens outparsing melee Mystics or melee Inquisitors.  They should, by a fair margin, the same way furies always out-nuke defilers and templars. As a 12-alt person, I have the gut feeling that Wardens are currently the gimpiest of the six priest types.  Give 'em a boost, please.  AA skill buffing added to the combat arts line along with the 75% criticals would be a decent start.

[Fromingo]

<p>That works too and was kind of what I described earlier.  </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

GinFan wrote: <blockquote><p>[Dev you is growing very sleepy, you are in a comfortable happy place, surrounded by your favorite things, this a peaceful happy place where primitive instinct is a group buff, you want to help wardens, because doing so makes you so happy, so at peace, you will bring it up at the next staff meeting with confidence, you are good looking, all the other staffers  like you and admire you, they will think primitive instict as a group buff is a wonderful idea, you are so smart, they wish they were more like you, you are so cool, so hip, so capable, you have access to production code....] </p></blockquote><p> ROFLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!   I LoL'd at this...thanks Gin LOL...</p>

[Avanya]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Arani@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Amen Liljna....couldn't have said it better. </blockquote><p> No but you could have said it earlier.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Now the thread is derailed back to changing Hawk.  </p><p>Hawks stays the same. </p><p>Lets get some support on Primitive Instinct line being made into a group wide buff at the same level of skill.  Or if group wide version needs to be lowered then the melee warden line also gets a personal +offensive skill boost to keep their own skill at least the same.</p></blockquote>lol you are right, I'm sorry.  Bad habit of mine, answering posts before I read the whole thread.  Will try to curb that in the future <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Skivley101]

<p>Well lets just onrail it ....</p><p>This is about the single target buff for mele skills</p><p>My original statement said to make it take concentration like aspect of the hawk ... (and add Str buff to it ... maybe 65 Str at master 1 lvl 70)</p><p>As to give us more options on buffing capabilities .... But then that brings up the whole  why do priests have conflicting buffs in the first place.</p><p>I think SoE should rethink the whole priest buffs .... (why does every priest have the mit buff & some lame add on) that doesnt stack???</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

OK....   ^^^   THAT would be the Sexiest Warden Spell....if it existed.

[Skivley101]

Arielle Nightshade wrote: <blockquote>OK....   ^^^   THAT would be the Sexiest Warden Spell....if it existed.</blockquote><p>  (((( Sirens Blaring))))    </p><p>Pull it over Arie ... your voting in the wrong thread.</p>