Raid Monks are now Extinct

[Xanthar]

<p>I had several posts dealing with the changes to the AA trees and how unfair it is that we have to spend AA points to get abilities that we can't use. Today, I notice they have all been deleted. I had some legitimate complaints to which there are no answers. There was a lack of thought into how high level raid Monks might be affected by the 2nd row abilities all sharing the same timers.</p><p>At the very least, they could leave my posts here so that all might be able to see how these changes affected my character.</p><p>I guess Sony wants me to switch to my Dirge. Now, I have absolutely no argument for convincing my Raid leader that we need to bring a Monk to the raids.</p>

[Kota]

i'm gonna beta for something else.  if they can't do something small like give us a hp buff and or boost our debuff i think that's great evidence of them not giving a flying flip about the state of this class.  yes btw i'm really bent out of shape about not having a hp buff.

[Kevlarmor]

<p>Switch to dirge and get it over with, at least you will get to raid.  It is nice to finally be wanted.</p><p><strike>Sangoh 70 monk</strike></p><p>Kagomay 70 dirge LoTM</p>

[Anjin]

<p>ROFL - I did pretty much the same.  Great to get a guaranteed raid slot and actually be a real asset to the raid, just a shame they're so boring to play!</p>

[Shankonia]

<cite>Kevlarmorte wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Switch to dirge and get it over with, at least you will get to raid.  It is nice to finally be wanted.</p><p><strike>Sangoh 70 monk</strike></p><p>Kagomay 70 dirge LoTM</p></blockquote><p> I raid on my Dirge and I despise it.  </p><p>Ever since the loot table chance in EoF changed so I cannot better equip my Monk while playing my Dirge meanwhile hoping the Monk will be fixed it's really hard for me to care.  Matter of fact, i've quit 3 different guilds on my Dirge.</p><p>Going from Monk to Dirge really hurts as i'm always in the OT group allowing them to shine...meanwhile, the OT gets all kinds of praise which end the end only hurts my chances even more so of raiding again on my Monk.</p>

[Xanthar]

<p>My Dirge is now 70 and is my main.</p><p>The first night we went in TNT (Throne of New Tunair) I felt very useful. I helped figure things out. I was called on to seek new areas and zones. Then, the next time we went in, having learned the first room, I felt useless again.</p>

[Wildfury77]

Constructive as ever.......the Dirge forum is -----> Here Bye <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Amaitae]

remember altruism. thats an ability worth in some raid instances.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Constructive as ever.......the Dirge forum is -----> Here Bye <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>It was much more constructive that the post you made. Remember, the issues are about <i>end content raiding, </i>they are NOT about mid 30's PvP. PvP forum is --------> Here

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Xanthar@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>I had several posts dealing with the changes to the AA trees and how unfair it is that we have to spend AA points to get abilities that we can't use. Today, I notice they have all been deleted. I had some legitimate complaints to which there are no answers. There was a lack of thought into how high level raid Monks might be affected by the 2nd row abilities all sharing the same timers.</p><p>At the very least, they could leave my posts here so that all might be able to see how these changes affected my character.</p><p>I guess Sony wants me to switch to my Dirge. Now, I have absolutely no argument for convincing my Raid leader that we need to bring a Monk to the raids.</p></blockquote> Getting back on point... It appears they may have addressed a few of your concerns (not sure if they deleted your posts or if there was a forum issue.. the forum was down for a while recently as i recall). The 2nd tier abilities have been changed recently on Test for GU 37 so that they are all no longer linked. So your concerns there will soon no longer be an issue. Also, it appears that they are nerfing a lot of hate control and providing more to the Brawler class. Possibly the beginning to some new raid use.

[Taiken]

<p>Yeah well.. We've been down this road before.. I'm not holding my breath this time. </p>

[Tamo]

How often are things left in testing though? Or thrown out night before launch? Remember KoS launch, we got screwed night before release and EoF was pretty much the same as I recall. I wouldn't hold my breath about these changes... it's not like SOE has a track record of putting them through anyways.

[Wildmage]

With Gu 37 it looks like monks will be giving raid wide Haste...pending on how that works in regards to stacking with peoples haste items that could make us wanted on a raid slot and fun enough we can be put in any group of the raid and still contribute the buff.

[Tamo]

<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>With Gu 37 it looks like monks will be giving raid wide Haste...pending on how that works in regards to stacking with peoples haste items that could make us wanted on a raid slot and fun enough we can be put in any group of the raid and still contribute the buff. </blockquote><p> Raid wide haste at what value? 21 is pretty minimal in some aspects. Sure it would help out someone somewhere, but the bottom line is that other utility classes would still fill that slot better.</p><p>I dunno, maybe I'm not looking at the big picture or something.</p>

[Taiken]

<p>nope, you're right.. That slot is better left for an assassin or a bard.. It's pretty simple.. If we had a unique sorta ability that actaully allows us to contribute to the damage somehow then yeah we have a [Removed for Content] good chance at being wanted in a raid.. But putting us on argo control and allowing us to give out haste 22  buff raid wide?.. I mean it's a change yeah.. and im glad they are looking at this class now... But come'on guys be real here.. We're still getting shafted in terms of a true class that has a special ability / purpose. Assassins do major freaking damage awesome poisions.. etc. Wizard will nuke the hell out of a mob.. I mean wizard = walking death. Zerker - Hit me all you like, cuz I will absorb the dmage, PLUS I can avoid it too, and I can hurt you with my nice buff. Defiler - Try to break my shield ward buddy... Haha.. recast every 5 seconds!</p><p>Healers - pretty pointless pointing this pointy fact out.. They are needed cuz they heal. </p><p>Bard - [Removed for Content] cob, [Removed for Content] we need that. </p><p>The list could go on for days.. People are looking for a skill that a class has that increases the amount of damge, or the debuff, or the buff it gives the group.. Argo control is like a slap in the face.. AND I know exactly WHY they gave it to us monks.. Why? Because we dont pull any argo in the first place, rather than increase any other stats or make an ability that defines a monk class as a role with all that extra work.. Lets just give them a group wide de-hate.. yeah that'll work.. Easy, no work, and maybe just maybe they'll stop asking us to help them. </p><p>Every class has a unique ability that is just ubber.. Where as monks.. Our only unique ability is devistation fist and it doesn't work against heroic mobs lol.. That and a GROUP FD that wil likely fail against 2 members in your group. I just dont care anymore.. Honestly all I do now is help out low level people with my monk and also help people quest by serving as a village idiot running around mobs and fd'ing in the quest area. Monks still have no real purpose, still have no real unique ability.. We are versitile I'll give you that.. But versitility vs purpose and need.. We're obviously left out in the cold. </p>

[Bladewind]

<p>You missed that in addition to the haste, we will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide.  It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing.  Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide.  I'll take the new buff over 22% haste to group only any day.  If brawler uncontested avoidance finally gets fixed, our raidwide avodiance buff will also be the best available.</p><p>We definitely are not the fighter aggro control class.  Bruisers got much more aggro control (for themselves and others) than monks did.</p>

[Tamo]

<p>Even with 15% faster casting the skill still won't put us at an overwhelming advantage over any other class. I can still see many raids passing over a monk for another utility class like Bard or Chanter. Or more DPS like scout or mage.</p><p>Avoidance being fixed is a big if.</p>

[Shankonia]

I like the changes, but it is tough to swallow as I seriously doubt it will be enough of an improvement to warrant swapping my Dirge out of the OT group in favor of my Monk.  Hope it stacks.

[Wildmage]

its supposedly just one facet of a big fighter archetype tweaking thats going to be finished by GU 38.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide.  It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing.  Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide.</p></blockquote>I can't wait to see what effect the changes have on the Raid DPS totals actually. Looking forward to it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Xanthar]

<p>Yes, this is all good news. My interest was peaked when I read the patch notes.</p><p>However, the raid now sees the vastly larger benefit the Dirge is to the raid and considers it my main now. Even with my Monk uber-geared and my Dirge with partly Treasured stuff still, he still contributes far more. Unless the Monk is TRULY fixed, and can offer something the raid will druel over (like CoB or Stoneskin), mine will stay a group/solo Monk at best.</p><p>I'm kinda thinking it's a bit too late, unless they make the Monk REALLY needed... not just "nice to have."</p><p>Sometimes, when they don't listen long enough, it becomes too late.</p><p>I'd like to see Chi's timer reduced to say, 5 minutes, so I can use it more than 8 or 9 times in a 2 hour raid. 12 minute recast (with cast speed buffs) is a bit too long IMO. I mean, get real, even with Chi, it's not like we'll blow everyone else away. I can't get better than 3rd or 4th on the DPS parse even when I drop Chi. It's not too much to ask to shorten the timer.</p><p>As far as Altruism, yeah it's real nice. However, we can go some entire raids and never use it. Monks need something tangible; something uber. Feign Death WAS unique, but now every class, and their grandmas, can use it.</p><p>I don't know. I wish they'd do something to fix it now before they get so far removed no one will even take a chance on them anymore. I don't want tanking skills... if I wanted a tank I'd have rolled one. I'd like to get decent DPS, even on every 5th fight. Along with the proposed changes, a Chi reduced timer would sure be nice. Just not sure it even all that is enough. I'm not after everything, just enough to be really wanted.</p><p>While you're at it, free up the weapon restriction in the STR line.</p><p>It's funny, the entire time I played my Monk I was never recruited by another guild, and the only time I ever got a "I'm glad you're in my group" is when I used Fall of the Phoenix (group feign). I've been playing my Dirge 1/4 of the time that I've been playing my Monk and I've been recruited by 3 other guilds, and a SINGLE raid night does not go by where I don't get a tell, group message, raid message, or guild message saying how much they love me being there.</p><p>That wreaks of imbalance.</p>

[BChizzle]

<cite>Tamo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Even with 15% faster casting the skill still won't put us at an overwhelming advantage over any other class. I can still see many raids passing over a monk for another utility class like Bard or Chanter. Or more DPS like scout or mage.</p><p>Avoidance being fixed is a big if.</p></blockquote>Its huge actually.  Monks won't be needed but they will be wanted.

[Tamo]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tamo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Even with 15% faster casting the skill still won't put us at an overwhelming advantage over any other class. I can still see many raids passing over a monk for another utility class like Bard or Chanter. Or more DPS like scout or mage.</p><p>Avoidance being fixed is a big if.</p></blockquote>Its huge actually.  Monks won't be needed but they will be wanted. </blockquote>If it was 15% reduced recast it might be better.. but 15% faster cast makes a 1sec cast time .85sec which in the grand scheme of things doesn't amount to much difference.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Tamo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tamo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Even with 15% faster casting the skill still won't put us at an overwhelming advantage over any other class. I can still see many raids passing over a monk for another utility class like Bard or Chanter. Or more DPS like scout or mage.</p><p>Avoidance being fixed is a big if.</p></blockquote>Its huge actually.  Monks won't be needed but they will be wanted. </blockquote>If it was 15% reduced recast it might be better.. but 15% faster cast makes a 1sec cast time .85sec which in the grand scheme of things doesn't amount to much difference. </blockquote>Yeah but on a long casting class it would own.

[Tamo]

The only long casting classes I can think of are healers and then after that it comes out to Crusader AoEs and then maybe a few mage spells, but I don't think this spell is going to be something raids or groups are screaming "OMGZ WE NEED A MONK!" for.

[Fleaba]

<p><span style="font-size: small">I honestly have hope for monks yet.</span> <span style="font-size: small">First time we killed Prince Thernig we had tried every other tank in the party as the OT for the Prince while the rest of the raid took out his 2 buddies. Finally, after a bunch of /tells to the raid leader I convinced him to throw me in the OT group and wouldn't you know it, my collection of O'SHEET skills along with my self cure was just the trick needed to stay alive vs. the Prince. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">We'll never be a MT for the raid, thats a given. But I have found that during special occasions when you need a tank who can stay alive but doesn't need to generate a ton of hate in the process.....a good monk can pull it off rather well.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">I also think that the raid wide casting speed buff will be VERY noticable on the raid wide parse. I have a lvl 70 Warlock and one thing I've always beetched and moaned about was that one of the main reasons that Nukers aren't embarrasing scouts on the parse is cuz melee classes cast there CA's way faster then most nukes cast there spells..</span></p>

[Kota]

well i like that we are getting a raid buff, but all the other fighters are too.  i don't wanna be a gloomy gus, and i haven't read up on the other fighter's buffs, but judging from the past, i'm not experiencing glee for our 'boost'.

[Ciara52]

<p>Pretty depressing over all.  I just made a monk almost lvl 10</p><p>I really like her but from all this I guess it's better to delete her now if she will just be useless later  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p>

[Squigglle]

<cite>Tamo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>With Gu 37 it looks like monks will be giving raid wide Haste...pending on how that works in regards to stacking with peoples haste items that could make us wanted on a raid slot and fun enough we can be put in any group of the raid and still contribute the buff. </blockquote><p> Raid wide haste at what value? 21 is pretty minimal in some aspects. Sure it would help out someone somewhere, but the bottom line is that other utility classes would still fill that slot better.</p><p>I dunno, maybe I'm not looking at the big picture or something.</p></blockquote> yeah it needs to be a 15% casting speed and like 8% reuse

[Ealthina]

Raid Monks now extinct?  Crap let me go tell my wife to she can no longer raid.  She seems to raid juuust fine.

[Wildfury77]

Xanthar@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>Yes, this is all good news. My interest was peaked when I read the patch notes.</p><p>However, the raid now sees the vastly larger benefit the Dirge is to the raid and considers it my main now. Even with my Monk uber-geared and my Dirge with partly Treasured stuff still, he still contributes far more. Unless the Monk is TRULY fixed, and can offer something the raid will druel over (like CoB or Stoneskin), mine will stay a group/solo Monk at best.</p><p>I'm kinda thinking it's a bit too late, unless they make the Monk REALLY needed... not just "nice to have."</p><p>Sometimes, when they don't listen long enough, it becomes too late.</p><p>I'd like to see Chi's timer reduced to say, 5 minutes, so I can use it more than 8 or 9 times in a 2 hour raid. 12 minute recast (with cast speed buffs) is a bit too long IMO. I mean, get real, even with Chi, it's not like we'll blow everyone else away. I can't get better than 3rd or 4th on the DPS parse even when I drop Chi. It's not too much to ask to shorten the timer.</p><p>As far as Altruism, yeah it's real nice. However, we can go some entire raids and never use it. Monks need something tangible; something uber. Feign Death WAS unique, but now every class, and their grandmas, can use it.</p><p>I don't know. I wish they'd do something to fix it now before they get so far removed no one will even take a chance on them anymore.<b><i><span style="color: #ff0000"><u> I don't want tanking skills... if I wanted a tank I'd have rolled one.</u></span></i></b> I'd like to get decent DPS, even on every 5th fight. Along with the proposed changes, a Chi reduced timer would sure be nice. Just not sure it even all that is enough. I'm not after everything, just enough to be really wanted.</p><p>While you're at it, free up the weapon restriction in the STR line.</p><p>It's funny, the entire time I played my Monk I was never recruited by another guild, and the only time I ever got a "I'm glad you're in my group" is when I used Fall of the Phoenix (group feign). I've been playing my Dirge 1/4 of the time that I've been playing my Monk and I've been recruited by 3 other guilds, and a SINGLE raid night does not go by where I don't get a tell, group message, raid message, or guild message saying how much they love me being there.</p><p>That wreaks of imbalance.</p></blockquote>Boggles......I rolled a Monk as a Tank that can DPS.....<i><u>last time i checked we arre meant to tanks</u></i>. PLEASE be aware that there are LOADS of monks that would like our tanking skills improved <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Xanthar]

<p>Well, of course Monks *can* raid. But, before this latest round of changes, I couldn't, in good faith, tell my raid leader that I was *needed* more than other classes. When we're fighting tough mobs and need certain things, my Monk offerED nothing. Just about any other class can bring something NEEDFUL. Now, with the new updates, a Monk has an argument to be in raid. So, there's no need to get sarcastic and say you better tell your wife she can't raid, please understand my point. Before these aggro changes and casting speed changes, a Monk had very liitle to offer a raid that any other class couldn't do better.</p><p>As far as tanking, I didn't say I didn't want better mitigation, avoidance, or defense. What I'm saying is that if you're using a Monk as a tank on raids, you're seriously hurting. A Monk can not be your guild's main tank. So, yeah, a little tanking here and there, sure. But, no one makes a Monk to be a guild tank. That was my point. If you want a guild tank you'll make a plate tank.</p><p>Please don't assume I'm stupid and think I said Monks can't raid or tank, period. Obviouly there was more to my words than simply that. I thought I explained myself enough to get past that. And, obviously, they *can* raid and they *can* tank. Please look for context.</p>

[Wolphin]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide.  It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing.  Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide.</p></blockquote>I can't wait to see what effect the changes have on the Raid DPS totals actually. Looking forward to it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>ok, am I missing something? Where is this raidwide buff everyone keeps talking about?</p><p>Our buff that increases attack and now casting speed is group only.</p><p>Our avoidance buff we can now cast on one raid ally rather then one group ally.</p><p>Is this something that hasn't been put in yet? </p>

[Xanthar]

<p>This raidwide deaggro seems to just be a gimmick. It deaggros the entire raid (less fighters) for about 850 to just over 1,000 every 20 seconds (17.8 on my Monk). So, if you use the total number you're getting approximately 20,000 *uniits* of deaggro total (give or take how many fighters you have in your raid.) every 18-20 seconds. That's sounds wonderful. But, let's look at it realistically...</p><p>In the "real" EQ world there will only be a few key people who would ever steal aggro from the tank anyway. The 1,000/20 second deaggro to those people who generate 3,000 DPS is pretty insignificant. I admit I don't know the formula for figuring hate gain per DPS generated, but it seems insignificant to me.</p><p>What you need to do is what I suggested on a different thread a while back. This deaggro needs to be for a group, and tripled in number. So, we can put the top 3 or 4 DPSers (generally the ones who steal aggro) in that group and it would function much better. So, we could then deaggro for 3,000/18 seconds. That's still borderline for being effective, considering you'll have the highest hate gainers in the group. Most people on the raid really have no need for this deaggro.</p>

[Wolphin]

<p>are you referring to one of the final AAs on the EoF tree? the Evade Check? That isn't what the folks in the topic are talking about when they are talking about the raidwide dps inrease is it?</p><p>It will only deagro the entire raid if everyone is within 15m of the mob. Doesn't the description say that you have to be within 10 meters of the mob your casting it on and then it only affects people within 15m of the mob? That isn't going to affect alot of the casters and ranged melee, if they are at max range to avoid AoEs and things, so they won't have their agro reduced. About the only people it will affect are non-bow scout classes and maybe some pets if they are included.</p>

[Xanthar]

<p>You are correct. They are speaking about 2 different things.</p><p>The increase in raid DPS they are speaking about is the new casting speed buff that Monks get for their group. Even though it only affects their group, it will raise overall raid DPS. They aren't saying it buffs the entire raid, but that it buffs the DPS the entire raid can do. I can see where it's confusing at first glance.</p><p>And, you are correct about range. I hadn't considered that yet as I was just looking at max possible gain for deaggro to the raid. Even at max (assuming it hit everyone), it's not near enough to be effective since it deaggros everyone equally and doesn't deaggro those that really need it near enough.</p><p>Since the raidwide deaggro and the group casting speed buff both have ranges, it's very possible, even likely, that some will be OoR and lower their overall effectiveness.</p>

[Bladewind]

<cite>Wolphin wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide.  It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing.  Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide.</p></blockquote>I can't wait to see what effect the changes have on the Raid DPS totals actually. Looking forward to it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>ok, am I missing something? Where is this raidwide buff everyone keeps talking about?</p><p>Our buff that increases attack and now casting speed is group only.</p><p>Our avoidance buff we can now cast on one raid ally rather then one group ally.</p><p>Is this something that hasn't been put in yet? </p></blockquote><p> Our group buff (melee haste +casting speed) is going raidwide along with other unknown fighter changes next LU.  That is what everyone is talking about.</p><p>Evade check is group only, not raidwide.  There have been no published plans to change this (it was just changed from self to group in this last LU).</p>

[Xanthar]

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evade check is group only, not raidwide.  There have been no published plans to change this (it was just changed from self to group in this last LU).</p></blockquote><p> Evade Check in my Monk AA tree says "all allies..."</p><p>So, it depends on what they mean by "allies." It is deaggro on the encounter that affects all allies. I read that as all in your group or raid. My opinion is Evade Check is a raid wide deaggro.</p>

[Nokrahs]

just played four Raids since latest GU with my new EoF Spec (Evade Check / Monkey Stance / Taunts) and noticed a huge difference in agro for myself while dealing dmg. raid parsed me 1300ish average zonewide after the raids and 1700 top on some encountes with a "ok" group (dirge/inqui with me), Gear is KoS Fabled standards with the usual adornments. KoS Build is WIS/INT (both end skill and maxed crits/crane flock) so I used to hit higher numbers on group encouters of course. however, the problem is to actually parse the portion of deagro coming from EvadeCheck for the group (can only rely on numbers which is 18k average  deagro on a full group per Minute without fighters in it and myself in monkey stance) since I don't get any numbers in the combat logs (same goes for taunt of course). at least I feel a little more important mashing that EvadeCheck Button soon as it pops and telling the group about the expected effects. the new upgraded group buff is great and everyone with long spells loves that. so after crying a river behind my keyboard for no upgrades regarding monk tanking abilities I feel at least improved in usefulness to a point now. is it wrong hoping for more in the future?