Anyone trying the AGI line?

[Madmoon]

<p>I looked it over, and I still cannot bring myself to respec.  12% reduction?  I mean, a few of our CAs, that would be nice.  Like the heal.  But is it any better than the third line of the other skills?  Would you lose your current third line ability?  I don't think we would be overpowered at even 16%  Certainly it would have helped address our DPS issues in comparison to other fighters.</p><p>In any case, is anyone using this line now, and liking it?</p>

[tt66]

I'm in pretty much the same position. It <i>looks</i> to be better now.. but.. it's AGI... I guess what I'd want to know is.. is a 12% reduction in reuse times roughly equal to a 12% increase in damage from CAs? (Or approx 6% total DPS) If so, then I'd say the AGI line might actually edge out STA from a pure dps point of view. (Mantis Bolt being only around 3% total DPS). Think I'll play about with AGI/WIS/INT for a bit. EDIT : All % numbers being incredibly hand-wavy.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess what I'd want to know is.. is a 12% reduction in reuse times roughly equal to a 12% increase in damage from CAs? (Or approx 6% total DPS) </blockquote><p>By throwing the average damage on a CA in Excel and lining them up with a casting order over time here is what I find:</p><p> Notes: I have not played with the optimal casting order, I've really just put these in from lowest recast to highest. This isn't the casting order I usually use nor is it likely the optimal one so this data might change somewhat with different orders. In addition, the effects of the AGI line are at 12% but I was too lazy to make a chart that went down to 1/2 of a second (instead I used full seconds only). That means you either can afford to slip .1 to .2 seconds between each CA and still achieve the numbers shown below if you have the AGI line or you can cram them all together and have a slightly higher CA DPS. We're talking about .2 to .8 seconds of "lost" recast time that I didn't calculate on my chart.</p><p>Casting order: Dropkick, Pound, Steel Fist, Callous Stomp, Blazing Lunge, Iron Fist, Meteor Fist, Eye Gash, Kidney Punch, Savage Bruising. In all cases where an ability is up at the same time as another ability I push off the ability that is further down the casting order list to the next open slot. This never happens with the default cast times but it does happen occassionally (especially with Eye Gash) on my chart for the AGI recast times - however this is because my chart does not capture the .2 to .8 seconds I end up adding on to each CA so it would not happen in practice.</p><p>According to my chart there is no benefit to the AGI line until a fight lasts 19 seconds - at the 19th second Dropkick finishes again and AGI provides a 4.11% CA DPS bonus. At the 20th second this jumps to 7.38%, <b>however by the 22nd second this drops back to 0% increase</b>. At the 28th second AGI provides a bonus again (3.83%), peaking at a maximum bonus of 27.22% bonus on the 32nd second. This bonus, however, rapidly fades back to 0% by the 36th second.</p><p>In short, AGI only helps <b>at all</b> if your fights routinely end a few seconds before your abilities would recast. If you have 32 second fights all day agi is looks fantastic <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Saying that ignores the reality that you are likely to enter the next fight with no or few CAs up where if you didn't have the AGI line you'd enter the new fight fresh.</p><p>On average over 3 minutes I find that the AGI line provides a boost of about 8.5% CA DPS, which at 50% of our overall damage would give you a 4.25% DPS boost, but I think that is overstating its benefit due to the reality of fight lengths. On fights that range between 20 and 40 seconds you have a 35% chance (depending on the second the fight ends at) of receiving no benefit whatsoever, a 30% chance of receiving a higher than average benefit, and a 35% chance of receiving a non-zero but lower than average benefit.</p>

[tt66]

heh. Well there goes the idea of doing AGI/WIS/INT. Can't see any reason at all to pick up three skills that share the same timer. I see that Mantis Star is on the same timer too. Guess I pick up Eagle Shriek and something else then. (Can't live without my 18% crit) Might try AGI/INT I guess.. spin for heroics and flurry for epics...

[deadsidedemon]

<p>The great thing about the AGI line is that it's not all DPS based.  Those reuse reductions affect your taunts, heal, stone deaf, rescue, KO combo, etc etc.  It's a utility line, not a DPS one - and if looked at that way, it's actually quite good.  My only beef is that other classes (including fighters) get a 2 point AA that gives them the same benefit it takes us 8 points to get (the 12%).</p><p>There's another reason this line actually works just fine for DPS as well though - a matter of chosing skills that are percentage based rather than flat damage.  But that argument doesn't work unless your weapons are well above average.</p>

[Madmoon]

<cite>deadsidedemon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There's another reason this line actually works just fine for DPS as well though - a matter of chosing skills that are percentage based rather than flat damage.  But that argument doesn't work unless your weapons are well above average.</p></blockquote><p>Could you expand on this?  What skills do you choose that are "percentage based," as opposed to what?  How do those skills tie in with a weapon choice?  And then, how does that tie in with the AGI line?</p><p>Thanks! </p>

[deadsidedemon]

<p>The idea is that percentage-based abilities (i.e. Crit % increase, double-attack % increase, etc) will actually *grow* with you as you get better weapons and spells.  Damage from abilities like Mantis Bolt or Crane Twirl remain static and are gonna do the same amount of damage regardless of if you're using crappy treasured weapons or fabled weapons.  So, generally speaking, increasing your percentage-based attributes (haste, DPS, crit, dbl-attack) gets you more mileage than going with a relatively static damage proc.</p><p>I'm still not saying the AGI line should be confused with a DPS line ... just that it's not completely hopeless for DPS if you value the other benefits you can get from it.  I use it and I like it, and the new version of Altruism is a much needed improvement.  To each their own though.</p>

[Madmoon]

<cite>deadsidedemon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The idea is that percentage-based abilities (i.e. Crit % increase, double-attack % increase, etc) will actually *grow* with you as you get better weapons and spells.  Damage from abilities like Mantis Bolt or Crane Twirl remain static and are gonna do the same amount of damage regardless of if you're using crappy treasured weapons or fabled weapons.  So, generally speaking, increasing your percentage-based attributes (haste, DPS, crit, dbl-attack) gets you more mileage than going with a relatively static damage proc.</p></blockquote><p> OK, I understand that, but how does a AGI line help that?  I understand that if I increase my crit percentage (INT line) I will get more damage as I get better weapons, and I understand that double attack % (STR line) increases as I level (as long as I go barehanded,) and I understand that +Haste and +DPS (gear and adornments) will mean my melee attacks will hit more often, but how does the AGI line effect any of those things?</p><p>You mentioned "choosing skills" that help, or mesh with, the AGI line.  I can't really choose skills, except AA skills and gear and I don't see how a CA re-use reduction matters if I have a bare-hand, a tin mace or Twin Calamaties.  The CAs do their damage regardless of what you have in your hand.  I don't even know if +crushing helps a CA land.  So what ability are you suggesting that someone get that involves the AGI line?</p>

[Madmoon]

<p>Madmoon wrote: </p><blockquote><cite>deadsidedemon wrote:</cite><blockquote>.... There's another reason this line actually works just fine for DPS as well though - a matter of chosing skills that are percentage based rather than flat damage.  But that argument doesn't work unless your weapons are well above average... <p>... The idea is that percentage-based abilities (i.e. Crit % increase, double-attack % increase, etc) will actually *grow* with you as you get better weapons and spells.  Damage from abilities like Mantis Bolt or Crane Twirl remain static and are gonna do the same amount of damage regardless of if you're using crappy treasured weapons or fabled weapons.  So, generally speaking, increasing your percentage-based attributes (haste, DPS, crit, dbl-attack) gets you more mileage than going with a relatively static damage proc ....</p></blockquote><p> OK, I understand that, but how does a AGI line help that?  I understand that if I increase my crit percentage (INT line) I will get more damage as I get better weapons, and I understand that double attack % (STR line) increases as I level (as long as I go barehanded,) and I understand that +Haste and +DPS (gear and adornments) will mean my melee attacks will hit more often, but how does the AGI line effect any of those things?</p><p>You mentioned "choosing skills" that help, or mesh with, the AGI line.  I can't really choose skills, except AA skills and gear and I don't see how a CA re-use reduction matters if I have a bare-hand, a tin mace or Twin Calamaties.  The CAs do their damage regardless of what you have in your hand.  I don't even know if +crushing helps a CA land.  So what ability are you suggesting that someone get that involves the AGI line?</p></blockquote><p><raises the Scepter of Animated Dead></p><p>Anyone have an idea what this guy was talking about?  How the AGI line effects percentage based skills?  Which skill can you choose, exactly, and how does the AGI line help that?  I can't think of any skills one can choose, unless he means AA skills in EoF or KoS.</p><p>I like the AGI line, but I specced over from WIS and miss the AoE abilities, and the associated DPS.  Yet, I am loathe to lose INT.  I suppose I could lose the end-line abilities, and go AGI-INT-WIS, but... I really like Altruism!  </p>

[Cocytus]

I really don't know why people take the agi line. 100% FD that can be cast on others....so what? The AAs you have to waste to get there....not really worth it :/

[Eligh]

Yea I like it.  With the ring of four winds you're getting 17% reuse reduction on all your CAs/items (AA abilties not affected by the ring).  The bonus may not be huge, but I definitely feel "slower" without it, especially when it comes to your longer reuse timers.  If you just look at one CA it doesn't seem useful.  You gotta look at the big picture in terms of all your items/CAs.  26s off KO combo alone is pretty big though imo. Baton flurry isn't great but it definitely helps your parse more than mantis star.  I spent 5 on flurry and the +36% recovery speed is effectively premanant since the duration is longer than the recast.  If you go STA, all you get essentially is a weak version of engulf (which isn't a huge part of our dps anyway).  Granted mantis bolt is a little better if you have a trigger chance buff from a dirge/mystic...I still think I get more DPS out of ambidexterity, not to mention faster reuse on utlity spells like stone deaf/tenacious will, both of which I seem to use all the time during raids.    Overall, a reuse timer bonus is a very scaleable bonus.  The more different abilities you use, and items you have (even crap like severed werewolf paw/vessel of fey'urn) the more benefit you derive.

[MadGiggler]

so far.. i have experimented with virtually all AA make up.... so far according to my parse and with my weps and gear im doing the most DPS with AGI, WIZ, INT if your a bruiser raiding and solo'n alot... this in my opinion is the way to go....   my 2cp anyways...

[Haet]

<cite>MadGiggler wrote:</cite><blockquote>so far.. i have experimented with virtually all AA make up.... so far according to my parse and with my weps and gear im doing the most DPS with AGI, WIZ, INT if your a bruiser raiding and solo'n alot... this in my opinion is the way to go....   my 2cp anyways... </blockquote> I totally agree, I have tried lots of different AA set ups and the one I stayed with is 4:4:8 Agi/Wis/Int

[Bobbette]

Agi worked pretty good for me when I had it (pre-changes though).  I respeced to Wis to the bottom (Crane Flock) and noticed a jump in my dps.  I miss the utility of the agility line tho, it was highly under-rated (even by me till I tried it).

[Junaru]

<cite>MadGiggler wrote:</cite><blockquote>so far.. i have experimented with virtually all AA make up.... so far according to my parse and with my weps and gear im doing the most DPS with AGI, WIZ, INT if your a bruiser raiding and solo'n alot... this in my opinion is the way to go....   my 2cp anyways... </blockquote>I don't know how effective this is for Bruisers but AGI for my Monk is amazing. Self hasted I'm at 100% (128 haste). With a 1.6s delay weapon I'm sitting at 0.8s delay. Baton Flurry drops my recover timer to 0.3s So with a 0.5s cast timer and a 0.3s recovery timer I don't miss any auto attacks between casts even if I spam my CA's. And with AGI(3) I can reapply Baton Flurry before it wears off. I've been telling the Monk for a while that AGI(4,5,<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, WIS(4,4,<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, INT(4,4,<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is not only one of the highest DPS builds but also gives the added benefits of lowering the recast timers of all skills. That included CoQ, heal, taunts, etc etc. The only down side is I tend to eat up power a lot faster but nothing a totem/hearts/shards can't handle.

[MadGiggler]

well, im sure that there is not "sure thing" each player has different gear and weps... all i can say is i did the crane flock rout...and was soloing and doing about 1500~1800 dps...  now that i went AGI, WIZ, INT 448, im now solo'n in the range of 2200~2700 dps  and on raids i have seen the same (depending on grp set up) i just posted that for those that were looking for someone that had done it and had good exp with it. i have 2 weps that are 2.5 sec delay and 63dmg / sec  (rated on examination of the wep)

[deadsidedemon]

<p>I couldn't get rid of AGI now that I've been in that line so long.  I've gotten too used to the pace of fights now.  12% doesn't seem like a lot, but it makes a difference.  Again, not just for DPS.  I'm kinda assuming you guys actually use some of your other abilities that actually make you useful ;p</p>

[Novusod]

I recently respeced from STA to AGI and am very happy with it and will not be going back.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>The AGI line does a lot more for Monks than Bruisers. A Monk can self buff haste enough to have quick weapons drop well below the 1s mark. Lowering Recovery Timers helps mesh autoattack with chained CAs quite well.</p><p>Also, since their CAs need to be recast to get the same burst DPS Bruisers have, having high recast helps them parse a lot better.</p><p>Now, when it comes to choosing between Agi or Sta, it's no contest. About the only people who would really want Sta is those maxing out Deflection for some reason, or PvP and wanting Mantis Leap for some nice tricks.</p><p> As it is, a Wis/Int spec (down to Finals) helps a Bruiser out so much, I couldn't see myself moving to the Agi line. Crane Flock is nearly an AE Rescue for when tanking groups, as well as a DPS boost on DPS spec. I couldn't give up Crits personally, and Parry bonuses end up giving more to avoidance than any of the others (it's the one hardest to get increases for).</p><p>Also, Bruisers don't need the Agi line's recast and recoveries to parse well. We aren't near the haste cap, and our recast timers are so long that they'll hardly be affected in the one fight even with a 12% boost (or 17% with that ring). Basically.. if a CA is going to be castable twice in a fight, it already is capable of it. The longer ones aren't reduced enough to be cast twice though, in most cases.</p><p>As for defense, all our recast timers are so long that I've never run into the issue that I've needed them back up before a reasonable amount of time has passed that a 12% change would help. And I've never had an issue with Taunts, we have AA's for that... and the new Final for the Attentions line really seals that situation.</p><p> In my personal experience, the Agi line just isn't enough to justify losing the Tanking and DPS benefits of either Wis or Int. And I'm not going back to pure DPS spec, since Crane Flock has been entirely far too useful to give up anymore.</p>

[Bobbette]

Hey you agi spec'ed guys ... Can you share your brawler AA specs?  You have me curious. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[PhozFa]

I've always been curious about the AGI line but haven't tried it since kos came out and I'm thinking of respecing due to the thread lol