The River..... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Flanikz

06-28-2007, 04:17 PM

OK I am not a happy camper in this....I was more or less depending on the Devs following their regular ignorance of the monk class and makeing the changes as planned, despite the river that was cried on the forums.The closed mindedness of the bulk of the monk community has yet again kept us from being a truely viable raid class.Look, Monks will never be the choice for raid tank, its simply this, even increases in MIT via AA will never bring our MIT high enough to truely tank Epics, Epics get a to hit bonus so Avoid tanking is useless, and non of our stuns/stiffle/dazes effect epics in anyway.The only saveing grace we raid monks had was DPS and Monk heal, which comes in insanely useful when first pulling a mob while debuffs come up.The proposed changes in the Brawler tree would have given the Monk class excellent burst damage.Before the changes I decided to try out a different AA spec, diverting from the unarmed line to pick up Crane Flock, and use weapons.With a Dirge and Shaman in group I would parse a min of 1800 with Caco, and as high as a little over 2100. That was JUST Crane Flock.This wasnt with slacker DPS in raid either, our guild averages 20k DPS.Couple that with the .75% rise in combat arts, and the ditch of the negative effects or Chi, this would have made us a viable DPS class for raids.Imagine just for a sec, Dispatch, Cacophony of blades, Chi, and Crane Flock at one time. For 16 Seconds we will Double attack our target 100%, and then single hit in AOE 100%, and then the other 14 seconds when Chi is running use our CA's.We WOULD have been competeing with Rangers on certain fights in DPS, meanwhile still comeing to the table with Monk heal.Monks will never be raid tanks, put it out of your mind, we dont have the MIT, we never will, what the Devs tried to do was give us a reason to be on raids, but the Hydrualic Engineers in the Monk community took it away.This change was an improvement, maybe not as drastic as some of you would want, and certainly not in the direction you wanted.BUT, it would have made the Monk a raidable class.Altho we can still pick up Chi and do this, we have to waste the entire STR tree to get to it, and have nothing to show for it aside from Chi itself.Instead of leaving the STR tree untouched they should have given us a 1.5% rise in CA damage per point. DPS is 50% of the only 2 factors we bring to a raid, and now we are just as gimped as before.So Props for the tear drops!Seeloc Crazylegs"Jibrowski<Chimera>Lucan D"Lere

Kota

06-29-2007, 12:03 AM

if monks consistently compete with rangers' dps we'll just get nerfed. monks were never meant to be a dps class.

Kaoru

06-29-2007, 12:54 AM

Yea, I don't think there are many raid monks who are very happy with the changes. There are a few things like the reduced crane flock timer but all in all we got screwed. Although I do believe that aa changes alone are not going to fix the countless issues our class has, some serious work needs to be done. But really for me it's not even about that. It is the fact that in the testing feedback forums so many monks came together and put forward a ton of good ideas and showed just how much we all love the class and know how good we can be, and every single dev decided to slap us all in the face and flat out ignored everything that was posted. I have no idea who they got to test these changes (if anyone at all) but I seriously doubt they listened to them or that they even played a monk on a regular basis. Kaoru Monk Blackburrow

Flanikz

06-29-2007, 01:56 PM

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote>if monks consistently compete with rangers' dps we'll just get nerfed. monks were never meant to be a dps class. </blockquote> Its not about consistantly competeing with them.Chi is our AA version of life tap, or mana burn.Last night in DT i used the above spec with Chi and Crane Flock.When i coupled them with Cacophony i was 2-3 hundred DPS behind the Rangers consistantly yes, but only while useing both.Every Class in this game brings something defineing to a raid force EXCEPT the Monk.You can try the arguement that we arent meant to be a DPS class, but thats all we actually are, I make the parse every fight im not passing out loot.Bruisers are the tank brawler, monks are the dps brawler, thats how its set up, so im looking at it that thats how the Devs have desighned it.What the Devs havent desighned into the game is the defined roll of the monk.We need something, at this point i dont care if its a copycat of some other classes ability, like another version of dispatch, or verdict, group stonesphere, group deagro, cacophony of blades, group ward, group HOT.The classes that are copied will become hydrualic engineers, of that im certain.To keep that from happening, the Devs simply needs to use their brain pans and come up with something NEW.But really, is it that hard to expand on one of the abilities that a monk already has to extend it to group wide use??Group Tsunami, group outward calm, group will of the heavens, AA intercede to absorb all attacks for group for one shot, if the Devs arent going to give us one single defineing roll, then they need to give us several things to bring to a raid force to make up for it.Seeloc

Flanikz

06-29-2007, 02:06 PM

Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Yea, I don't think there are many raid monks who are very happy with the changes. There are a few things like the reduced crane flock timer but all in all we got screwed. Although I do believe that aa changes alone are not going to fix the countless issues our class has, some serious work needs to be done. But really for me it's not even about that. It is the fact that in the testing feedback forums so many monks came together and put forward a ton of good ideas and showed just how much we all love the class and know how good we can be, and every single dev decided to slap us all in the face and flat out ignored everything that was posted. I have no idea who they got to test these changes (if anyone at all) but I seriously doubt they listened to them or that they even played a monk on a regular basis. Kaoru Monk Blackburrow </blockquote> On this note here.....If there is a dev reading this, I volunteer myself to to test changes to the monk class.Let me copy my toon to the test server and find a raid guild to take a chance on a monk.I know the Monk class very well, as im sure many others do.But it seems whoever you Devs do have testing the monk class isnt doing their job very well, because i have yet to meet a monk that is happy with the class.Seeloc

mellowknees72

06-29-2007, 02:16 PM

I'm a monk and am extremely happy with my class. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But then, I don't raid. I believe that test copies of characters are only done for the PvP Test server, because the test server is an actual player community. If you make a monk on the test server, you do get a 50% experience bonus. Let your monk sit for a couple days between playing sessions and your vitality will build and you can level up very quickly. Items on the test server are sold on the broker for MUCH MUCH MUCH less than they sell on mainstream servers, so it's not difficult to outfit a character either. I have a monk and a mystic on the test server because I was most concerned with changes taking place with those classes and wanted to be able to make a difference. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of play time overall due to my job, my commute, and all the other hassles of real life...so I can't do *too* much there. But if you're really concerned, make a monk on Test...don't wait for the devs to permit you to copy your character over there, because it likely will not happen.

Cornbread Muffin

06-29-2007, 02:27 PM

Seeloc@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Bruisers are the tank brawler, monks are the dps brawler, thats how its set up, so im looking at it that thats how the Devs have desighned it.</blockquote> uhh...no. We have no tools to tank that you do not, and you have one tool to tank (Tsunami, which is weaksauce) that we do not. Neither of us are tanking brawlers when it comes to raids, so we both need either better DPS or better utility to be worth bringing along.

Flanikz

06-29-2007, 02:29 PM

Pipes@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I'm a monk and am extremely happy with my class. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But then, I don't raid. I believe that test copies of characters are only done for the PvP Test server, because the test server is an actual player community. If you make a monk on the test server, you do get a 50% experience bonus. Let your monk sit for a couple days between playing sessions and your vitality will build and you can level up very quickly. Items on the test server are sold on the broker for MUCH MUCH MUCH less than they sell on mainstream servers, so it's not difficult to outfit a character either. I have a monk and a mystic on the test server because I was most concerned with changes taking place with those classes and wanted to be able to make a difference. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of play time overall due to my job, my commute, and all the other hassles of real life...so I can't do *too* much there. But if you're really concerned, make a monk on Test...don't wait for the devs to permit you to copy your character over there, because it likely will not happen.</blockquote>I spend far too much time playing my monk as it is to then turn around and create a new one on the test server..........I suspect that whoever is testing these changes on the test server is an alt and not a main and doesnt really care whether the monk class is useless on a raid or not.Yes i am concerned but i have a raid guild on my home server so i spend my time attending to my guild as a leader should...I could carve time to test changes, but not enough time to level one.

Flanikz

06-29-2007, 02:33 PM

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote>Seeloc@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Bruisers are the tank brawler, monks are the dps brawler, thats how its set up, so im looking at it that thats how the Devs have desighned it.</blockquote> uhh...no. We have no tools to tank that you do not, and you have one tool to tank (Tsunami, which is weaksauce) that we do not. Neither of us are tanking brawlers when it comes to raids, so we both need either better DPS or better utility to be worth bringing along.</blockquote> Nope, bruisers get a mit buff thats consumes health right along the lines of the monk haste.With better DPS, more mit, and better tanking ability, the bruiser is actually right now better than the monk class all around.Monks can compete barely if they know their class very well, but not in tanking, we get avoid AA's, and against epics they do nothing.Only thing we can really do is spec DPS, and try to compete.

Cornbread Muffin

06-29-2007, 03:06 PM

I agree that the monk is in worse shape than bruiser but that is because of DPS and not tanking ability. To borrow from South Park, arguing over the two is like choosing between a giant [Removed for Content] and a [Removed for Content] sandwich.Bruiser has a mit buff that drains 2% of your health per tick in exchange for 762 mit as Master 1. Buffed with 12k HP that means my ability is doing 40 DPS to me in exchange for about 3% mitigation. That means the mob must be doing 1,333 DPS in physical damage to me just to break even. This ability is garbage and nobody uses it. I take that back...one time I used it to help keep my health low while trying to get some use out of our [Removed for Content] Eagle Shriek AA.To actually see the 3% not go to waste by paying health costs for an ability designed to keep you from losing health the mob would have to be doing 2,666 physical DPS to me. Of course, I would be dead in 4.5 seconds but if I managed to stay up for, say, the 10 seconds you get Tsunami for I would mitigate almost 800 damage! Alright! Meanwhile, were I a Monk I could turn on Tsunami and mitigate 26,600 damage.Does Tsunami's ability to eat this much damage make you a quality tank? No, and neither does Vigorous Spirits for us. We are not the tanking brawler to your dps brawler. We both suck at tanking and we both suck at DPS.

Amz

06-29-2007, 03:19 PM

Not to mention that Monks were originally supposed to be the defensive brawlers and Bruisers the offensive ones. But I don't care as long as we get to be SOMETHING soon.

Flanikz

06-29-2007, 03:25 PM

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote>I agree that the monk is in worse shape than bruiser but that is because of DPS and not tanking ability. To borrow from South Park, arguing over the two is like choosing between a giant [I cannot control my vocabulary] and a [Removed for Content] sandwich.Bruiser has a mit buff that drains 2% of your health per tick in exchange for 762 mit as Master 1. Buffed with 12k HP that means my ability is doing 40 DPS to me in exchange for about 3% mitigation. That means the mob must be doing 1,333 DPS in physical damage to me just to break even. This ability is garbage and nobody uses it. I take that back...one time I used it to help keep my health low while trying to get some use out of our [I cannot control my vocabulary] Eagle Shriek AA.To actually see the 3% not go to waste by paying health costs for an ability designed to keep you from losing health the mob would have to be doing 2,666 physical DPS to me. Of course, I would be dead in 4.5 seconds but if I managed to stay up for, say, the 10 seconds you get Tsunami for I would mitigate almost 800 damage! Alright! Meanwhile, were I a Monk I could turn on Tsunami and mitigate 26,600 damage.Does Tsunami's ability to eat this much damage make you a quality tank? No, and neither does Vigorous Spirits for us. We are not the tanking brawler to your dps brawler. We both suck at tanking and we both suck at DPS.</blockquote>OK my statement that bruisers are the tanks and monks are the dps is my opinion, however not the topic of this thread.instead of looking for an arguement by picking out one thing you disagree with me about, why not state the particulars you agree about and go from there.What your doing is not helpful in any way to either the monk class or the bruiser class.If you are unhappy about the way the current changes has effected the bruiser class id suggest you post in the bruiser class boards as i have done in the monk class boards if you have not done so already.Dont tell me the changes were made to brawlers, the changes that were made effect the classes in much different ways.Seeloc

Bladewind

06-29-2007, 03:42 PM

We're both fighters/tanks. There is essentially zero disparity in defense between the two classes atm. The bruiser health burn mit buff is just as useless for tanking as the monk health burn haste thanks to the diminishing returns on the mit curve as explained above. I could choose two relative class abilities at random and argue the other way. Take our hate procs - the monk one is pure threat while the bruiser one is threat/damage. Through AAs, monks can boost their rooting mit buff, the recast on tsunami and outward calm, gain additional avoidance which is useful when your raid force knows what it is doing, etc...I am not saying we don't need some attention, but as far as one being 'designed' as a tank and the other being 'designed' as dps, that is rubbish. We're both designed as avoidance tanks, who, like all tanks (warriors, crusaders, brawlers), can take offensive AA abilities and pump out respectable dps if they choose. The reason we have difficulty performing our primary role in the raid setting is that the a developer has decided that avoidance tanks should not get the highest uncontested avoidance. The notion of uncontested avodiance was introduced with KoS, which, not surprisingly, was when brawler raid tank ability went from viable to swirling in the toilet bowl. Since then, we have gone from 0 uncontested to about 12% uncontested after two updates aimed at fixing brawlers. This has improved our lot, but plate tanks with the warrior buckler line or a tower shield still have much more uncontested avoidance than brawlers do. It makes no sense that the kings of avodiance arbitrarily have the lowest avoidance in one setting. It is very frustrating that this one key flawed mechanic hamstrings us so badly. Before uncontested avoid was introduced, a good brawler had 75ish% avoid and 50ish% mit. A good plater had 50ish% avoid and 75ish% mit. Shockingly, we tanked about equally back then. I don't get why seeing a balance like this restored has been so elusive <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cornbread Muffin

06-29-2007, 03:51 PM

Seeloc@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>OK my statement that bruisers are the tanks and monks are the dps is my opinion, however not the topic of this thread. instead of looking for an arguement by picking out one thing you disagree with me about, why not state the particulars you agree about and go from there.What your doing is not helpful in any way to either the monk class or the bruiser class.If you are unhappy about the way the current changes has effected the bruiser class id suggest you post in the bruiser class boards as i have done in the monk class boards if you have not done so already.Dont tell me the changes were made to brawlers, the changes that were made effect the classes in much different ways.Seeloc</blockquote>I didn't post here looking for an argument, I posted here to correct the statement that Bruisers are designed to be the tanking brawler. That is helpful to the bruiser class, because the last thing we need is some dev rolling in here (yeah, I know, they don't really read the brawler forums) and taking that to heart.The changes that were made do not have appreciably different effects on the two brawler classes. The changes (well, the proposed ones before it was taken back) were extremely minor and would have had similar effects on both classes, though the effects would have been slightly less for monks because your autoattack damage is a slightly higher proportion of your total damage than it is for Bruisers. As for the rest of your post, I don't think that the .75% CA damage boost would have made the STR line useful as Chi itself is not particularly useful. Good DPS every 15 minutes is not a good reason to bring a monk on a raid when I can get even better DPS every fight from 8 other classes. What both Monks are bruisers need is an overall DPS increase in addition to added utility. I'm as miffed as you are that the changes were reversed but I'm hoping that the reversal will end up in another change that is superior to the original proposal.

Flanikz

06-29-2007, 05:42 PM

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're both fighters/tanks. There is essentially zero disparity in defense between the two classes atm. The bruiser health burn mit buff is just as useless for tanking as the monk health burn haste thanks to the diminishing returns on the mit curve as explained above. I could choose two relative class abilities at random and argue the other way. Take our hate procs - the monk one is pure threat while the bruiser one is threat/damage. Through AAs, monks can boost their rooting mit buff, the recast on tsunami and outward calm, gain additional avoidance which is useful when your raid force knows what it is doing, etc...I am not saying we don't need some attention, but as far as one being 'designed' as a tank and the other being 'designed' as dps, that is rubbish. We're both designed as avoidance tanks, who, like all tanks (warriors, crusaders, brawlers), can take offensive AA abilities and pump out respectable dps if they choose. The reason we have difficulty performing our primary role in the raid setting is that the a developer has decided that avoidance tanks should not get the highest uncontested avoidance. The notion of uncontested avodiance was introduced with KoS, which, not surprisingly, was when brawler raid tank ability went from viable to swirling in the toilet bowl. Since then, we have gone from 0 uncontested to about 12% uncontested after two updates aimed at fixing brawlers. This has improved our lot, but plate tanks with the warrior buckler line or a tower shield still have much more uncontested avoidance than brawlers do. It makes no sense that the kings of avodiance arbitrarily have the lowest avoidance in one setting. It is very frustrating that this one key flawed mechanic hamstrings us so badly. Before uncontested avoid was introduced, a good brawler had 75ish% avoid and 50ish% mit. A good plater had 50ish% avoid and 75ish% mit. Shockingly, we tanked about equally back then. I don't get why seeing a balance like this restored has been so elusive <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Well the changes in KOS that effected the avoid tanking was suppossed to be a normalazation.It did not have that effect however.What they did i believe was give the deminishing returns a soft cap of 63%, i could be wrong on that number i havent actually tested it.after 63% of mit or avoid it stops being worthwhile to add more of each.On this tho and what makes plate tanks so much more effective in tanking epics is that they can get their mit way beyond 63% and come closer to 63% avoid than Brawlers can the reverse.Keeping my avoid at 63.6%I can get my mit to 52.2%I would be higher in avoid however i am not speced for tanking, im speced for dps.Our MT get his to Mit 61%Avoid 53.8%Getting these numbers from our MT really confusees me actually, because they are very comparable in the reverse, which really only leaves the to hit bonus the epics get as the culprit for being a lousy tank for epics.All in all id rather see us get some sort of defineing roll on raids, as was the case in eq1.

Cornbread Muffin

06-29-2007, 05:49 PM

Your MT's avoidance is worth more than yours due to block being uncontested and our only uncontested avoid coming from our defensive stance. Hell, your MT's avoidance in offensive stance is better than yours in defensive.

Squigglle

06-29-2007, 06:15 PM

i have to agree, monks do need more looking into. monks are not good fro raids besides just for little damage. i would like to see them get buffed up more.

Frain

06-29-2007, 08:59 PM

Indeed. I've raided quite alot lately whiht my monk and i've noticed that our dps realy isn't that good, SKs and zerkers can parse almost as much as us AND they can tank properly. I'm happy whith the canges of the wis line though as this makes us able to get atleast some aoe aggro in groups, but in raids we're stil very far down. Looking at the EoF raid drops, it looks like there are some realy nice items that helps us tank, does that mean that's what soe wants us to do? I dont think i'll ever see a guild doing eof zones whith a tank specced brawler. And the str line, i dont realy like it becoes you can't realy combo it whith anything except a few lines, and many of us want to keep our weapons. I agree whith Seeloc, devs realy need to find the place for us. Being the person always being able to FD isn't enough.

Bewts

06-29-2007, 11:44 PM

Barring verbal profanity, I'm not impressed with the vomit the development team submitted to brawlers for their new AA changes. My monk is mothballed until I see new revamps for us.Regards,Bewts

Raidi Sovin'faile

06-30-2007, 01:01 AM

I posted this in the Bruiser forum but it's meant for Monks just as much...Our Deflection REALLY should be uncontested to the full amount, just like shields. Someone out there forgot that Deflection IS our shield. Our crappy aggro control is made up by the fact that we can use the full shield along with a 2hander or dual wields... but it's no reason to limit the shield itself.Healers are already capable of healing Brawlers against raid targets.. I've personally experienced it. This change would simply make it so we'd have that extra oomph to make us a better choice over someone like... a Rogue. The real reason we suck at Epic tanking is because we can't hold aggro against multi targets. I would far prefer seeing our taunt proc reduced, but kept, on single target attack, but then an added taunt whenever we deflect or parry an attack. Combined with some AA's and the above uncontested change, this could drastically change our aggro holding capability. Those two changes could put us on a more level footing. Base tanking ability (withstanding attacks and holding aggro) would be close enough that it's only the tricks that make some preferred tanks (ToS and Reinforcement for Guardians, etc). But it would mean that if a guild didn't have a steady Guardian or Zerker for MT, they could rely on a Brawler without shooting themselves in the foot.

Nerill

06-30-2007, 03:31 AM

Aonach

06-30-2007, 09:29 AM

Hmmm, there is an awful lot of whining here about the monk and his raiding abilities. I have a raiding monk. He is in full fabled left side with marrs fist and fists of pain as weapons. He is tank specced as far as AA's go.On raids monks are amazing off tanks. We can grab agro if the MT loses agro and a mob gets lose in the raid. We can pop tsunami, fire off a few taunts and that should give us enough time to switch from DPS to tank mode and give a shout to the raid that we have a mob on us. If the raid responds then we can tank these mobs till they die with no problem whatsover.We can fire a 50% heal onto the MT if the healers are struggling to keep him up. We can then also rescue the mob from the MT and offtank him again by using tsunami, we can then FD when we get low on health and have the MT take control again. This is a brilliant ability for a monk to save wipes on raids.We can also pop traps in HoS and DT, pull mobs generally for the raid. Incidentally my parse even as a tank specced monk and even when I'm not placed in a proper DPS raid group is around 1000 dps. If I get a dirge or a coercor I am over 1400 constantly none of the other fighters can consistantly better that other than the guild bruiser.Monks have many things to bring to a raid, it seems to me that the people moaning about their monk either have guilds that don't understand what a monk can do or they don't understand what their own monk can do.Yes we have problems but they are nothing like as bad as some people here are making them out to be. Put some effort into your gear and get some adorns and a monk is a very viable raiding class to a raid leader that knows how to utilise them.

xPALAx

06-30-2007, 10:05 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>we can then FD when we get low on health</blockquote>FD is not a strategy, FD is a "Oh Sheet" spell, like evac <blockquote>We can also pop traps in HoS and DT</blockquote>grats <blockquote>Monks have many things to bring to a raid, it seems to me that the people moaning about their monk either have guilds that don't understand what a monk can do or they don't understand what their own monk can do.</blockquote>...or you don't know raids

Aonach

06-30-2007, 12:14 PM

"FD is not a strategy, FD is a "Oh Sheet" spell, like evac"What a lot of nonsene that is. OFC FD is a strategy, it used to be a prime strategy to beat the 2nd named in FTH. Besides I wasn't describing a strategy, I was describing a technique. Also since when did you consider FD training to the bottom of SoS to farm nameds as an "Oh sheet" spell? Seems you have no clue what FD is for if you think it's an "Oh Sheet" spell."...or you don't know raids"Of course I don't only having been MT for a top raiding guild with my zerk and MA/puller/Offtank for another with my monk. If you have nothing constructive to say you should just hush up.

Dorieon

06-30-2007, 12:24 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm, there is an awful lot of whining here about the monk and his raiding abilities. I have a raiding monk. He is in full fabled left side with marrs fist and fists of pain as weapons. He is tank specced as far as AA's go.On raids monks are amazing off tanks. We can grab agro if the MT loses agro and a mob gets lose in the raid. We can pop tsunami, fire off a few taunts and that should give us enough time to switch from DPS to tank mode and give a shout to the raid that we have a mob on us. If the raid responds then we can tank these mobs till they die with no problem whatsover.We can fire a 50% heal onto the MT if the healers are struggling to keep him up. We can then also rescue the mob from the MT and offtank him again by using tsunami, we can then FD when we get low on health and have the MT take control again. This is a brilliant ability for a monk to save wipes on raids.We can also pop traps in HoS and DT, pull mobs generally for the raid. Incidentally my parse even as a tank specced monk and even when I'm not placed in a proper DPS raid group is around 1000 dps. If I get a dirge or a coercor I am over 1400 constantly none of the other fighters can consistantly better that other than the guild bruiser.Monks have many things to bring to a raid, it seems to me that the people moaning about their monk either have guilds that don't understand what a monk can do or they don't understand what their own monk can do.Yes we have problems but they are nothing like as bad as some people here are making them out to be. Put some effort into your gear and get some adorns and a monk is a very viable raiding class to a raid leader that knows how to utilise them.</blockquote>- When you do shout but healers are busy you are dead, or you fd and a squishy is dead. If you are getting heals then you can live but if its a long named fight then you take a ton of damage and the healers are spending so much power on you that they run out and have nothing left or are harrassing the summoner so much for hearts/shards that the summoners aren't doing the most they can- The heal is a nice raid saver, but wow, with hate transfers and a warrior's taunts even my rescue doesn't usually grab the mob from the MT (and yes I use taunts throughout and they are mastered). - I don't know about anyone else but I haven't had to trigger a trap in a long time. My Guardian is perfectly capable of running over it, taking the damage and getting healed. -1000-1400 dps isn't enough, even if you do all of the above every fight, to validate a monks spot in a raidI raid all the time with my monk, but sometimes I know that if I sat and we brought that extra dps the raid would have gone better. I don't think we are "broke" as everyone says but we could definitely use some help to make us more useful/wanted/needed in a raid. I love my monk and I will never claim another as a main but I will bench him when he is useless for a raid.- are we dps or are tanks? because right now we are neither

Aonach

06-30-2007, 02:32 PM

<cite>Polynikes wrote:</cite><blockquote>- When you do shout but healers are busy you are dead, or you fd and a squishy is dead. If you are getting heals then you can live but if its a long named fight then you take a ton of damage and the healers are spending so much power on you that they run out and have nothing left or are harrassing the summoner so much for hearts/shards that the summoners aren't doing the most they canNo you pick up the mob to stop the squishes from dying that is the point.- The heal is a nice raid saver, but wow, with hate transfers and a warrior's taunts even my rescue doesn't usually grab the mob from the MT (and yes I use taunts throughout and they are mastered). I never have a problem from rescuing mobs when I need to.- I don't know about anyone else but I haven't had to trigger a trap in a long time. My Guardian is perfectly capable of running over it, taking the damage and getting healed.Yes I'm sure he is, I'm sure there are many things that many different classes can do on a raid. I gave a very viable job for a monk on a raid, I didn't say that "only" monks can do it or that other classes can't. -1000-1400 dps isn't enough, even if you do all of the above every fight, to validate a monks spot in a raid1000 - 1400 is a perfectly acceptable amount of DPS for a fighter on a raid that brings other things along with the DPS, remembering that 1000 is what you get if you aren't in a proper DPS group and are "tank" specced.I raid all the time with my monk, but sometimes I know that if I sat and we brought that extra dps the raid would have gone better. I don't think we are "broke" as everyone says but we could definitely use some help to make us more useful/wanted/needed in a raid. I love my monk and I will never claim another as a main but I will bench him when he is useless for a raid.He isn't useless at all. It's just more of the negative griping that goes on all the time on these boards by every single class in the game. Go read every other board and you will see that they all think they are "useless" too. It's rather amusing actually.- are we dps or are tanks? because right now we are neitherWe are both, we just aren't amazing at either. </blockquote>

Raidi Sovin'faile

06-30-2007, 04:33 PM

It's not so much useless.. it's inefficient. And for min/maxing power raiders, inefficiency equates to uselessness. And FD is technically an ability that AVOIDS combat, not defeats it. If your goal is to avoid combat all the way to a destination, then kudos. Other than training and the ONE epic fight that CAN use it (I've yet to be on a raid that sees it work, there are other tactics that can be done), there's not really anything it does to make us better DPS or Tanks or Utility. It's like saying a scout's pathfinding is why they take them on a raid... Making Deflection uncontested for it's full amount won't break solo or group play.. and it basically makes us better at raid tanking. Is there really any problems out there with making it so we are a bit better at tanking epics? How about aggro control? Procing a taunt on deflection and parry? Got a problem with giving us a little bit more group aggro control? Why would it be a problem?

Aonach

06-30-2007, 04:46 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>It's not so much useless.. it's inefficient. And for min/maxing power raiders, inefficiency equates to uselessness. And FD is technically an ability that AVOIDS combat, not defeats it. If your goal is to avoid combat all the way to a destination, then kudos.Again I was giving you a skill that monks have and a use for it. How much farming can a guardian or a zerker do I wonder? FD is a wonderful ability and it can be used to great effect in raids to make them easier and more succesful. Other than training and the ONE epic fight that CAN use it (I've yet to be on a raid that sees it work, there are other tactics that can be done), there's not really anything it does to make us better DPS or Tanks or Utility.FD is a wonderful utlilty. Our DPS is acceptable if not great and we will never be main raid tanks but I am a good offtank, secondary tank and a preatty good emergency MT if need be. I don't want to or ever expect to be a MT on a raid, if you rolled a monk thinking that one day you might be then you were sadly mistaken as to what a monks role is. It's like saying a scout's pathfinding is why they take them on a raid... Ermmm, no it isn't Making Deflection uncontested for it's full amount won't break solo or group play.. and it basically makes us better at raid tanking. Is there really any problems out there with making it so we are a bit better at tanking epics? How about aggro control? Procing a taunt on deflection and parry? Got a problem with giving us a little bit more group aggro control? Why would it be a problem?Because SoE are never ever going to give brawlers the ability to be MT's on top end raids. Not with current or new content. I'm pretty sure that many monks, certianly EOF kitted ones with relic 2 armour could tank Labs now. We can tank fine, it's harder of course to do than it is for plate tanks, we just aren't guardians and never will be.Incidentally, if you want to keep agro in a group, pull it, do your grp taunt, dragons breathi f you can, then cycle through the mobs taunting them and you will be fine. ofc you will ocassionally lose some agro but where would the fun be if it was too easy? works on raid mobs that too btw, especially if you have an MA to help you.</blockquote><blockquote> </blockquote>

Raidi Sovin'faile

06-30-2007, 05:02 PM

Many, many classes out there have tricks that make them better at farming than others. This game wasn't built around farming, and it shouldn't be. So Brawlers give up raid role efficiency because they can farm? Also, I think you put way too much stock with Feign Death. Please.. explain how a raid can't ever do without it on the majority of raids. Really, I'd like to know how taking myself completely out of the combat every 10 seconds brings so much more utility than say.. a few people who already have FD in another form, or a tinkered FD item. I rolled my Bruiser (yes, bruiser.. but we're talking about Brawlers here so I think it's valid), back when the game first came out. You can check my toon if you want (it's right in my name, Kaisoku on Mistmoore). I've played this game back when we started out as Fighter, and ran around with Round Shields for protection. The devs advertised the Brawler class as a Fighter that tanks as good as the others, just differently. NOT LESS... DIFFERENT. So yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume I was going to be a valid option for tanking ALL game content. If you don't want to be a raid MT, that's fine. And I think even if we were on an equal footing, the ancient spells that some classes get would still make others "preferred" MT's. However, that shouldn't mean we get the short end of the stick. They took away our Round shield and gave us Deflection instead. Then they boosted it so we could be called "avoidance tanks".. hence why we have less mitigation. Then KoS rolls around and avoidance is screwed with Epics. So they make shields uncontested. Our "Shield" (deflection) wasn't even slated to be changed. Then they give us 16%... lower than the potential "uncontested avoidance" that non-avoidance tanks can get. If we give up Mitigation for our Avoidance, we should have more uncontested avoidance. Simple as that. I've yet to hear a valid reason why we SHOULDN'T have the changes I proposed. All I've heard is bull answers like "we won't ever be raid mt's" or "just deal with it". Those responses are just saying "ignore the issue"... they are not reasons why the changes shouldn't be made. What exactly would it hurt if we had better avoidance against epics and aggro control?

Kaoru

06-30-2007, 09:14 PM

Being the OMG its an emergency person is fine and dandy until your guild figures out how to do things without any hiccups. Then where does that leave you. As for being an off-tank doing 1k-1.4k dps just bring in a zerker who will trump you in both damage and tanking ability without breaking a sweat. Kaoru Monk Blackburrow

Kota

06-30-2007, 11:47 PM

aonoch talks as if his guild really likes him. cool. you are in a raiding guild. your ppl like you and they pat you on the back and tell you 'gj' all the time. what about the other monks who aren't in a raid guild ? how are they gonna sell themselves ? as a dps class ? as if. a tank ? i don't care how well you can tank there will always be a plate tank there to tank. oh, you don't need a monk to trigger traps in hos. you could send a wiz to do it and he could do just as well.

Aonach

07-01-2007, 04:39 AM

Haha, non raiding monks aren't broken in this game in the slightest. Any decent monk can tank any instance in this game. If you can't it's because you don't know how to play your class.There is a substantial amount of moaning done on these boards by people who obviously just haven't worked out how to do some of the things they are asking the devs to "provide solutions" for. Look at the tools/skills you have and adapt your gaming to suit.To Kaisoku - Oh yeah and I don't think that FD is a farming tool or that the game should be built around it. It's a nice utility to have though and if you haven't worked out what it's really for yet than that's your loss.Also you can't just give brawlers the ability to tank raid epic mobs. Brawlers aren't the only class in the game. If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker. Unfortunately the devs ahve to keep the game balanced. Tricky job that, all things considered.

Timaarit

07-01-2007, 04:52 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha, non raiding monks aren't broken in this game in the slightest. Any decent monk can tank any instance in this game. If you can't it's because you don't know how to play your class.There is a substantial amount of moaning done on these boards by people who obviously just haven't worked out how to do some of the things they are asking the devs to "provide solutions" for. Look at the tools/skills you have and adapt your gaming to suit.To Kaisoku - Oh yeah and I don't think that FD is a farming tool or that the game should be built around it. It's a nice utility to have though and if you haven't worked out what it's really for yet than that's your loss.Also you can't just give brawlers the ability to tank raid epic mobs. Brawlers aren't the only class in the game. If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker. Unfortunately the devs ahve to keep the game balanced. Tricky job that, all things considered.</blockquote>Sigh, another non-brawler saying brawlers are ok. Any decent rogue can tank any instance in this game. And most plate tanks that aren't even decent by your definition of it can. And as said, 'If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker' is a BS statement. It might be true, but in now way does it justify the lack of improvements for brawlers. I'd say anyone stating that kind of crap should be picked up to have their own toon single target nerfed to hell.

Aonach

07-01-2007, 05:09 AM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha, non raiding monks aren't broken in this game in the slightest. Any decent monk can tank any instance in this game. If you can't it's because you don't know how to play your class.There is a substantial amount of moaning done on these boards by people who obviously just haven't worked out how to do some of the things they are asking the devs to "provide solutions" for. Look at the tools/skills you have and adapt your gaming to suit.To Kaisoku - Oh yeah and I don't think that FD is a farming tool or that the game should be built around it. It's a nice utility to have though and if you haven't worked out what it's really for yet than that's your loss.Also you can't just give brawlers the ability to tank raid epic mobs. Brawlers aren't the only class in the game. If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker. Unfortunately the devs ahve to keep the game balanced. Tricky job that, all things considered.</blockquote>Sigh, another non-brawler saying brawlers are ok. Any decent rogue can tank any instance in this game. And most plate tanks that aren't even decent by your definition of it can. And as said, 'If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker' is a BS statement. It might be true, but in now way does it justify the lack of improvements for brawlers. I'd say anyone stating that kind of crap should be picked up to have their own toon single target nerfed to hell. </blockquote>Haha, I have a 70/100 raiding monk, 70/100 raiding fury, 70/73 raiding zerker and a 69/55 conj. So please don't come on here spouting nonsense about me not knowing what I'm talking about. Go look up Sambrokyl on EQ2players, I'm not uber but i can do most things on here with my monk that people are moaning at devs to "sort".At no time did I say it wasn't ok to ask for improvements for brawlers but to ask them to be able to do a Guardian or zerkers job is just childish.Incidentally I've been on a raid on my server where a brawler tanked FTH. Just for the record.

Kota

07-01-2007, 05:25 AM

i love it when ppl say you should have rolled a guardian or berzerker if you wanted to tank. where did it say in the archetype description that guardian/zerker were gonna be raid tanks ? where was this stated pre launch ? your statement is just ignorant. that's like telling dps class A that if they wanted to dps they should have rolled dps class B. how would they have known they were gonna get the shaft. no question mark. rhetorical question.

Aonach

07-01-2007, 05:49 AM

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote>i love it when ppl say you should have rolled a guardian or berzerker if you wanted to tank. where did it say in the archetype description that guardian/zerker were gonna be raid tanks ? where was this stated pre launch ? your statement is just ignorant. that's like telling dps class A that if they wanted to dps they should have rolled dps class B. how would they have known they were gonna get the shaft. no question mark. rhetorical question. </blockquote> I didn't say that. I said if you wanted to be a raid tank. If you are gonna blurt out accusations you should at least try to get your facts right. If you thought at any time that brawlers were going to tbe the raid tanks of choice then you have obviously never played EQ1 or have any concept about plate v leather tanking.I will say it again because you point blank refuse to listen. I have been on a raid where a brawler tanked FTH. I bet it wasn't easy for him or the healers but he did it. It's not "impossible" for brawlers to do it its jsut there are better classes for it available.These arguements about "I'm a tank so I should be able to tank every single thing in the game as well as a guardian is just garbage" Of course we shouldn't be able to tank what a guardian can tank. It's their primary role in the game, if you didn't "know" that then you are just being naive.

Kota

07-01-2007, 06:18 AM

i assumed guardians would be the choice tanks for most content in the game. i'm not trying to be a leather wearing guardian. it was stated a long time ago that different tanks would be better in different situations. where's my situation ? if guardians have tanking so locked down, why do they have group buffs locked down too ? and don't come at me with your FTH tanking stories. i've tanked it. tried the whole FD prone to corruption business. ya that's disease based. i'm not asking to be the tank supreme, and i doubt anyone else here is.

Aonach

07-01-2007, 06:58 AM

I wasn't talking about just the 2nd named in FTH.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-01-2007, 08:50 PM

This is what I said: I've yet to hear a valid reason why we SHOULDN'T have the changes I proposed. All I've heard is bull answers like "we won't ever be raid mt's" or "just deal with it". Those responses are just saying "ignore the issue"... they are not reasons why the changes shouldn't be made. What exactly would it hurt if we had better avoidance against epics and aggro control? Still no answer to that. Still just BS like "You shoulda picked a different class". Except that Brawlers used to be capable MT's. Not the best, as there were other tricks other tanks could do. But with the changes to +skill being so much more important, and the changes to avoidance being worked against us... our efficiency at being MT (withstanding blows and holding aggro) has dropped dramatically. And the ability to drop aggro and effectively take ourselves out of combat does nothing for a MT position. Yes, there's one or two situations in a raid that it could be useful. Sorry, I don't have group FD either, I'm a Bruiser, so maybe FD has a slight extra advantage at utility for you. But it's not the be-all ability for raiding. It's a passover ability that isn't required in the slightest, and many others can bring a version of it that is good enough for the situations it calls for (with the one exception of the named in FTH, but even that isn't a mandatory tactic.. try having a decent OT and higher raid DPS). Yes, FD is fun, it's great.. but it's not the reason we should have lost the ability to tank in raids.

Nerill

07-01-2007, 11:12 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have been on a raid where a brawler tanked FTH. I bet it wasn't easy for him or the healers but he did it. It's not "impossible" for brawlers to do it its jsut there are better classes for it available.</blockquote>Maybe you missed the hundreds of posts that we have in several different threads explaining the Brawler's problems. I'm sure that rogues can tank FTH too. "just there are better classes for it available." That is our argument. Maybe you should read through a few hundred posts and get caught up with things. There are ALWAYS better classes out there in every case. There are much better classes for tanking. There are much better classes for DPS. There are much better classes for utility. And while they are tanking they out DPS us or at least come within 100 - 200 DPS all the while being much superior tanks. So please refrain from coming in here and telling us how well you tank in your KoS relic gear and trying to justify a position in Raids for our class that always has several other classes that can do everything better than us. Oh wait, we are the best at FD ! WOOOOOOOOPEEEEEEE !

Zabjade

07-02-2007, 01:16 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha, non raiding monks aren't broken in this game in the slightest. Any decent monk can tank any instance in this game. If you can't it's because you don't know how to play your class.No I take a lot of spike damage even while soloing and grouping it is also hard for healers to keep up unlike a plate tank. I know how to play my class, the fact that there are so many looking for solutions is because many of us are having issues. There is a substantial amount of moaning done on these boards by people who obviously just haven't worked out how to do some of the things they are asking the devs to "provide solutions" for. Look at the tools/skills you have and adapt your gaming to suit.Hard to work for solutions when you have less to work with. As for adapting we do that plenty, we have to just to survive to level 70+.[Snippage of irrelavent stuff] Also you can't just give brawlers the ability to tank raid epic mobs. Brawlers aren't the only class in the game. If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker. Unfortunately the devs ahve to keep the game balanced. Tricky job that, all things considered.Yes they can we are tanks as well, we are the red-headed stepchild of the game to be precise. "Roll a Guardian or Berzerker" that is the LAMEST comeback for you feeling threatened by the possibility Brawlers in Tank Rolls (if they ever do fix us I wonder how many will roll Monks) . And that is just it, with Monks the way they are, the game is NOT BALANCED, if they listen to some of the suggestions here in the monk and in the Test Forums they could be.</blockquote>Bah why am I even debating this Troll, oh yeah because he occludes the facts with retoric like Slick Willie. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> causing the fiction to be believed as fact.

Wildfury77

07-02-2007, 02:46 AM

Is he a Troll? or just better at playing a monk than you? I have no problems having a monk as my groups MT....."want a fast as possible instance clear?" ------> get a brawler or zerker to MT. Generally because offensive tanks they play that way (certainly the experience i get when using my swashie)!! Offensive melee classes appreciate that mentality and get this if you do have a swashie in group its the offensive tanks that benefit MOST from his debuffs! That plus a master 1 hate transfer ----- AoE agro control solved. IMHO a monk benefits way more than a guard from having a 6 man swashie in group.Each situation is different - each class mix is different ---> some better, some worse. Now quit the whinning before my migraine gets worse! Suggest sensible minor improvements rather than ridiculous changes, we ARE NOT broken. Personally i'm angling for a group Avoidance buff and faster timer on an AoE taunt.

Zabjade

07-02-2007, 02:58 AM

Troll because he is intentionlally trying to start and argument, or at the very least how it appears to be, especially with elitist Phrases like "Roll a Diffrent Class" instead of asking for my current classs to be brought up to par. It seems that a lot of plate tanks feel threatened if we want to join them as Tanks.You are a rarity then, and Berzerkers have the edge on DPS and avoidance as well as the Mit when Avoidance fails. You can't have six swashies in the same group as a Monk, five maybe but you still need a healer and an Enchanter to keep it up.BTW, I have, in several Threads, and the changes I and many others have advocated have not been overpowering. As for your Migrain take Excedrine that does wonders for me.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 05:03 AM

Haha, a troll? You mean my point of view is different from yours? You mean that just because I don't want to join the group of moaning little spoilt kids that want their class to be the best at everything. You think that makes me a troll? I think not.What you people, in your little greed infested fury for every buff in the game, fail to acknowledge is that devs CAN'T just give a class that extra avoidance buff, or that extra 500 hps becasue it directly affects the abilities and usefulness of other classes in the game.If a brawler could tank every single raid mob then why would anyone need a guardian for or a zerker? If we could out DPS scouts then what would we need a swashie for?Monks CAN tank, monks CAN DPS, monks HAVE utility. If you don't know how to use them then it's your fault not the games.Yes we need brought in to line with bruisers a bit but whining about wanting to be able to be raid tanks and be uber DPSers "at the same time" is just pathetically childish. Hundreds of posts moaning about how bad we are, shocking!One other thing posted a couple of threads up about "so many people on here seeking changes". I can assure you there are thousands and countless more just playing the class and enjoying it that are on here [Removed for Content] and moaning about how pathetic THEY ARE at playing the class.

Deathspell

07-02-2007, 05:17 AM

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote>if monks consistently compete with rangers' dps we'll just get nerfed. monks were never meant to be a dps class. </blockquote>I'm sorry, but when the game came out the rangers weren't meant to be a dps class either. Not like they are now anyway.

Zabjade

07-02-2007, 05:41 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha, a troll? You mean my point of view is different from yours? You mean that just because I don't want to join the group of moaning little spoilt kids that want their class to be the best at everything. You think that makes me a troll? I think not.No it's your Attitude, if you had "Played devils advocate" or somesuch that would be a debate. I'm not asking to be the best at everything just brought up to the on par with them.What you people, in your little greed infested fury for every buff in the game, fail to acknowledge is that devs CAN'T just give a class that extra avoidance buff, or that extra 500 hps becasue it directly affects the abilities and usefulness of other classes in the game.One, we do not want every buff in the game, although many of the plate-tanks seem to be getting better versions of our trademarks. We just want to be brought up to speed. Two, Avoidance is broken anyway, more like a percentile of parry. HP is easy enough to get, it's our Mitigation and resists that is the problem since avoidance is broken (and other tanks get more anyway) we suffer from heavy spike damage even on green con trash heroics. Brawlers need high end fabled to compete with a Plate in mastercrafted and legendary.If a brawler could tank every single raid mob then why would anyone need a guardian for or a zerker? If we could out DPS scouts then what would we need a swashie for?Again we are not asking to outdo just be a viable option, and we hardly come anywhere near Berzerker DPS much less Scout.Monks CAN tank, monks CAN DPS, monks HAVE utility. If you don't know how to use them then it's your fault not the games.Yes we can tank in groups but not in raids (one AoE and we are dead) , only if we give up weapons altogether not viable in end game, as we desperately need the states of said weapons not just the damage. Anyone can be a Minesweeper, any tinkerer can FD and SK's do it better.Lets see green Heroic trash mobs with blows that ignore avoidance altogether even with me in defensive stance, Spike damage that autopunches through aviodance is hardly me playing bad.Yes we need brought in to line with bruisers a bit but whining about wanting to be able to be raid tanks and be uber DPSers "at the same time" is just pathetically childish. Hundreds of posts moaning about how bad we are, shocking!Brawlers in general need to be brought in line with the rest of the tanks, and many of advocation one or the other not both. Not shocking really.One other thing posted a couple of threads up about "so many people on here seeking changes". I can assure you there are thousands and countless more just playing the class and enjoying it that are on here [I cannot control my vocabulary] and moaning about how pathetic THEY ARE at playing the class.I play my class very well, you do not know how I play, If you can debate without putting someone down and considing that they might indeed have a point I will retract my troll comment. </blockquote> I'm pretty sure some of the other Monks have their hard numbers to back up their claims why don't you gather yours as well and then they and you can compare notes.

selch

07-02-2007, 05:53 AM

It is not your view is different, it is because you are throwing stuff from your back bottom. None should take you seriously.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-02-2007, 06:09 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>If a brawler could tank every single raid mob then why would anyone need a guardian for or a zerker?</blockquote> You pull this one from the same book as the "you shoulda rolled a warrior if you wanted to tank epics"? Why exactly would people not want to use guardians or zerkers anymore if brawlers could? You realize that this old "retort" was based around the fact that Brawlers did more DPS than the other Fighters... the full line was "Why use another tank when the Brawler could tank it and do more DPS". This is no longer the case, and this tired old line is just as worthless as an argument. You might want to research a little before parroting things like this. <cite>Deathspell wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sorry, but when the game came out the rangers weren't meant to be a dps class either. Not like they are now anyway.</blockquote> When the game was first in beta, Heroic Opportunities were going to have a much larger effect in combat, and scout were supposed to have an integral part of it. In the last month of Beta, they decided to can the complex levels of it, dumbed it down to what it is now, and made scouts "melee" DPS. Predators have always been DPS, both Assassin and Ranger. Like all classes in this game, their level of power has gone down and up and down again as things were added, fixed, and nerfed. Before the big Proc nerf, Rangers were the highest DPS potential in the game, and now they float around the same level as the other high DPS oriented classes. But really, right from the day the game became Live, Rangers have been a DPS class. Brawlers on the other hand were designed from the beginning as Tanks, if tanks of a different method. The higher DPS was their way of holding aggro, and this fluctuated just like the DPS of Rangers and every other class. When KoS rolled around, and Taunts became more and more useless in keeping aggro... ALL Fighters obtained a boost to DPS to hold aggro. The idea that "Brawlers used DPS to hold aggro, so they have less taunts", is from an era before everyone started doing it. I'm repeating Gaige here, but all the changes made to the Brawler class have been towards making them a Tank class... with nerfing the overabundance of DPS back when we were too close to the DPS classes.. to giving and improving the Deflection score to make Brawlers "the avoidance tank". Only recently have Brawlers lagged behind. No, we haven't had a role change... no major bonuses to DPS to make us a DPS option eschewing all Tank benefits... but neither have we had the changes needed to keep us up with the Tanking requirements. A major change was made to how Skills acted in combat. This reduced the effectiveness of our Taunt Proc compared to before, and yet nothing was changed to improve it or circumvent this issue. A major change was made to how avoidance works against epics, called for by most avoidance tanks for a long time, and Brawlers are not given the lion's share of avoidance despite it being the primary way they tank. Two major changes to the game, and Brawlers are left behind. This isn't a change in role after over 2 years of gameplay. This is simply a neglect in development. Either they still haven't figured out what they intend to do, or they simply haven't afforded the time to concentrate on it. Or maybe the changes needed involve a larger change to the game they are still working on. And I challenge anyone to call me a whiner or a moaner. I'm approaching this very logically, with the experience of playing the class archetype since the game's inception. I'm not complaining, or demanding overly absurd bonuses, or archetypal changes. I enjoy playing my class, and I still do what I can with it. However, I'm not about to sit there and not say anything when I see an illogical issue with the game.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 06:48 AM

I was going to sit here and reply to all the points individually but quite frankly I can't be bothered. It's a pointless exercise anyway because obviously I'm playing a different game from you lot.I always get groups.I find my monk fun to play.I can be in the top 5 on any DPS list on any raid.I can tank epic mobs in raids.I can tank any instance easily.I don't die on the first AoE.I can get fabled gear and masters easily becasue I can farm for cash and loot.I can etc etc etcSo I'll leave you all to your little group of whining and moaning. No doubt you can all group together and talk about how you driven another player who might give positive feed back about the monk from the official boards. Sad thing is you all actually believe the nonsense you write! Stop whining and maybe the devs might listen to you. Good luck with that one.

Timaarit

07-02-2007, 06:56 AM

Aonach

07-02-2007, 07:11 AM

Sigh, I don't need to come on here and spout numbers about DPS or what I can tank and can't tank. I actually go in the game and play it and have fun doing it. If I try something and it doesn't work I'll find another way of doing it?Does it annoy me that wizards at level 65 can solo The Carnovingion in Bonemire while I can't? No it doesn't becasue I can solo most of the nameds in SoS in 45 minutes to an hour.Does it worry me that I will never ever be able to replace a zerk or guardian on a raid? Of course it doesn't because at no time ever did I expect to.Does it worry me that a swashie can do 400 more DPS than me? Of course it doesn't because I never expected to beat a swaashie in DPS.The fact that at times and in certain situations I can tank what zerks tank, I can do the same DPS as a swashie is great. It's a challenge to me to get as close to these other classes as I can.So you go back to your little number calculator and compare monks tanking to zerks tanking and monks DPS to swashies DPS while you convieniently forget the good stuff about a monk. While you are doing that I'll go play the game, get some XP, have some fun, maybe loot some good stuff and get better at playing my monk.I bet you any money if you did get all these things you want you would find something else to moan about. Envy is a terrible affliction!

Timaarit

07-02-2007, 07:21 AM

Well now, if you are so happy with the class, then why are you doing your best(?) to prevent any good changes for it? Your image about the monk is not The Only Right one, when I look at the game as whole, I am fully expecting to out-DPS a swashy on a raid. Why? Because while my monk is only there for DPS, the swashy is there for hate buff, he will be debuffing the mob AND giving the group AE avoidance every now and then. If you dont see anything wrong when the swashy also beats brawlers in DPS, well then you are really blind or purposely ignoring the imbalance. Now I am 100% certain that if you also had a 70/100 swashy or brigand, there would be no good raidleader that would prefer the monk over the rogue. Also since you have a zerker, the said raidleader would not care which one you brought to the raid if they already had MT and OT. That is what is wrong with the picture.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 07:36 AM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well now, if you are so happy with the class, then why are you doing your best(?) to prevent any good changes for it? Eh? You are just a little confused aren't you? Your image about the monk is not The Only Right one, when I look at the game as whole, I am fully expecting to out-DPS a swashy on a raid. Why? Because while my monk is only there for DPS, the swashy is there for hate buff, he will be debuffing the mob AND giving the group AE avoidance every now and then. If you dont see anything wrong when the swashy also beats brawlers in DPS, well then you are really blind or purposely ignoring the imbalance. Now I am 100% certain that if you also had a 70/100 swashy or brigand, there would be no good raidleader that would prefer the monk over the rogue. Also since you have a zerker, the said raidleader would not care which one you brought to the raid if they already had MT and OT. That is what is wrong with the picture.You just don't get it do you? Whining on that the monk doesn't do this as well as that class or that why do they get that when we don't is garbage. If you wan't to change the monk, go play one on test. I'm sure the devs will listen to well constructed test reports from your monk as to what would make the monk a better class for the game in general. Everything you post on here just sounds like a little kid wailing "I want that becasue they have got it, waaaahhhh!"Comparing monks to swashies or zerkers is pointless and I repeat it again no matter how much you hate it. If you covet their skills so much go role one! </blockquote>

Zabjade

07-02-2007, 07:46 AM

Still no hard facts, and you are using put downs again.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 07:53 AM

What "hard facts" do you want exactly? I will never compare my monk to any other class other than a bruiser. So I have no idea what nonsense you want me to post here that would satisfy your little moans.I have said what I needed to say. My lowest dps parse is about 800 my highest was 2100. I have tanked named mobs in all KoS zones, I can tank trash no problem whatsover. I have tanked every instnace at least once. Everything else I need to say I have said about the class. I never have an issue getting a group or a raid and get told I'm pretty slick at being a monk <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. What do you want me to say, I don't see "the problems" you and your little team of unhappy moaners seem to have.Incidentally they aren't "put downs", I'm jsut saying it like it is.

Timaarit

07-02-2007, 08:13 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>What "hard facts" do you want exactly? I will never compare my monk to any other class other than a bruiser. So I have no idea what nonsense you want me to post here that would satisfy your little moans.I have said what I needed to say. My lowest dps parse is about 800 my highest was 2100. I have tanked named mobs in all KoS zones, I can tank trash no problem whatsover. I have tanked every instnace at least once. Everything else I need to say I have said about the class. I never have an issue getting a group or a raid and get told I'm pretty slick at being a monk <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. What do you want me to say, I don't see "the problems" you and your little team of unhappy moaners seem to have.Incidentally they aren't "put downs", I'm jsut saying it like it is.</blockquote>Well, if you dont ever compare your monk to any other class than a bruiser, then you really cant have any idea how good monks really are in the game. What you perceive as 'good' is a relative term and in comparison, any other melee class would be 'great' in your scale. But you would never know since you dont want to compare. Maybe it is a good idea for you not to, actual comparison might make you see the reality.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 08:28 AM

No. I just don't feel the need to compare it, I have no "self worth" issues. I like the class, I see no "major" problems with it and I'm not greedy for everything that every other class has. That's the difference between you and I, I rolled a monk knowing what a monk is, I didn't roll one expecting it to be anything else.In fact let me tell you exactly why I rolled and levelled a monk to a 70/100 raider and switched it to my main.I was MT for a raiding guild with my zerker when the claymore line came out. I obviously started doing it like all good fighters should but the SoS part really annoyed the crap out of me. So I solicited the help on my 70 monk friend who proceeded to train me through the entire SoS claymore questline and PoA quest line. Tanking mobs as well as I could, FD training to far ends of the zone, pulling mobs from difficult pull spots using his skills as a monk.I was sick to my stomach that this monk could do all these great things and still tank as well or nearly as well as my raiding zerker. So I rolled a monk, levelled it, kitted it out and switched it to my main and I have never regretted doing that once! Not one single time!

Timaarit

07-02-2007, 09:10 AM

Well, that is your choice then. If you are so happy, then stay out of these discussions. You are really not bringing anything to the table here since you have zero facts to back you up. You perceive monks as good class because you dont know anything better, good for you. Your image however is flawed by the fact that you dont see the other classes performance. And it has been said too many times already, monks are good solo class. There are better still, but a monk can solo quests most classes cant. But the problems of monks are not in soloing nor in heroic content. Again something that has been said several times but you have chosen to ignore it since you are repeating your mantra about soloing and heroics. Maybe you want to ignore it because you really dont have any input to the matter because you know we are worth crap in raids. But I am not going to ignore it, especially not because someone who flat out refuses to look at the classes as whole says we are fine. As it seems, I can do better DPS on raids than you and I still have hard time to warrant a spot on raids. You see many people in my guild has also healer alt. Guess who is the first to go in healing duty in case we dont have enough for a raid? No, not the ones with scouts. No, not the ones with plate tanks either. And definately not the mages.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 09:19 AM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, that is your choice then. If you are so happy, then stay out of these discussions. You are really not bringing anything to the table here since you have zero facts to back you up. You perceive monks as good class because you dont know anything better, good for you. Your image however is flawed by the fact that you dont see the other classes performance.What? I will not keep out of your endless moaning, not without letting people know it's not true. I feel it only right that people who might just be starting their adventures as a monk don't think that the pessimistic nonsense you post on here is nothing but your opinion. These people have every right to think that there is nothing wrong with the monk and that your negativity about the class is just plain wrong. And it has been said too many times already, monks are good solo class. There are better still, but a monk can solo quests most classes cant. But the problems of monks are not in soloing nor in heroic content. Again something that has been said several times but you have chosen to ignore it since you are repeating your mantra about soloing and heroics. Maybe you want to ignore it because you really dont have any input to the matter because you know we are worth crap in raids. But I am not going to ignore it, especially not because someone who flat out refuses to look at the classes as whole says we are fine.I have no problems in raids. I can tank and DPS and get used properly if the raid leader decides to do that. Again it's your "personal problems" on raids you are discussing. As it seems, I can do better DPS on raids than you and I still have hard time to warrant a spot on raids. You see many people in my guild has also healer alt. Guess who is the first to go in healing duty in case we dont have enough for a raid? No, not the ones with scouts. No, not the ones with plate tanks either. And definately not the mages. Maybe you just have a really crap personality and people don't like you?</blockquote>

Anjin

07-02-2007, 09:37 AM

Things just don't add up with your posts, Aonach. I have a 70/100 Berserker, Monk & Dirge and I'm astounded that you think the way you do. You mention use of FD in HoS and DT - tbh, these zones are KoS, easy and quite frankly backward - any guild that relies on FD in these zones should seriously consider not raiding at all.My monk was my main, but although I found him fun to play he just doesn't stack up raidwise. My berserker can tank better (better aggro control & survivability) and DPS better. A berserker also enhances the raid dps far more than a monk with berserk and +STR group buffs. Alas, my Dirge is now my main as the guild needs one for a few months, then I can go back to my berserker being my main.This is interesting though:"That's the difference between you and I, I rolled a monk knowing what a monk is, I didn't roll one expecting it to be anything else."It seems that unlike yourself, other monks on this forum actually want the class to be fairly compared to other peer classes. You rolled your monk in August last year because you were so inspired by FD and training through zones - if this is what you think "a monk is" you should control youself and not post in the monk forums.I would highly recommend that you actually read through the vast quantity of valid points made in the monk forums regarding issues monks have before posting ill founded trash.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 09:56 AM

You guys crack me up.Just becasue I refuse to join in to your "little" and I use the word deliberatly "LITTLE" group of people who moan on and on and on about how terrible the class is, that makes my posts are "ill founded trash"?What a lot of verbal diarrhoea that is. In case you haven't noticed the majority of people who post on these forums don't whine and moan about the monk and these forums are filled by a very, very small percentage of the monk playing community. So it seems to me that my "ill founded trash" is what "MOST" monks playing the game tend to agree with. Either that or they like me don't find the class so "terrible" to play that they feel the need to come on here maoning about it in every single post they made.Anyway enough, like i said before people like you guys just like to moan, your glass is always half empty, I would say go enjoy yourselves but you probably can't.

Kaoru

07-02-2007, 11:22 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys crack me up.Just becasue I refuse to join in to your "little" and I use the word deliberatly "LITTLE" group of people who moan on and on and on about how terrible the class is, that makes my posts are "ill founded trash"?What a lot of verbal diarrhoea that is. In case you haven't noticed the majority of people who post on these forums don't whine and moan about the monk and these forums are filled by a very, very small percentage of the monk playing community. So it seems to me that my "ill founded trash" is what "MOST" monks playing the game tend to agree with. Either that or they like me don't find the class so "terrible" to play that they feel the need to come on here maoning about it in every single post they made.Anyway enough, like i said before people like you guys just like to moan, your glass is always half empty, I would say go enjoy yourselves but you probably can't.</blockquote>If you think that it is the minority of the class that are unhappy about its current state, then your are sadly mistaken. I suggest you join the WW monk channel (crushbone.allmonks) and ask a few opinions. Kaoru Monk Blackburrow

Anjin

07-02-2007, 11:28 AM

You crack me up because there are a plethora of threads containing constructive comments regarding the monk profession that you obviously can't be bothered to read. Basically you are an ignorant inky LITTLE specimen that either doesn't care that other peer classes are far more desirable to a (decent) raid or hasn't the gumption to understand.Oh, before I forget, please can you provide the details of how "MOST" of the monks playing the game agree with you. It can't have been from analysing the forums threads as you wouldn't have started your petty tirade in the 1st place if that were the case.

Aonach

07-02-2007, 11:41 AM

I read all the stuff thats constructive, it's just hard to find it amongst all the claptrap posted by the moaners.moan, whine, moan, whine, moan *yawnNow that post is a troll, no point in anything else with you guys so no more twoing and froing from me. Good luck on your quest to turn monks into super zerk/swashie hybrids. haha

Timaarit

07-02-2007, 12:43 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read all the stuff thats constructive, it's just hard to find it amongst all the claptrap posted by the moaners.</blockquote>The reason why you cant find any posts that are constructive is that you wouldnt know one even if it hit you to your head. Besides, the biggest moaner here is you, all I see is you moaning about people who are making valid complains and constructive posts.

Cornbread Muffin

07-02-2007, 12:45 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was going to sit here and reply to all the points individually but quite frankly I can't be bothered. It's a pointless exercise anyway because obviously I'm playing a different game from you lot.I always get groups.This is not a problem for most players because group content is easily done by every class. That doesn't mean the grouping wouldn't go easier if they brought a plate tank along, it just means they can get by with you and you are available. It is also likely that you have a pool of friends in the game that are more inclined to invite you than someone else - pretty much everyone in the game has this going for them.I find my monk fun to play.I used to find my Bruiser fun to play. Now every time I am on him I just think "I could do this and so much more as a rogue or a plate tank". Yay, I can FD. I don't need to FD if I can just kill everything.I can be in the top 5 on any DPS list on any raid.I think you believe this but you are ignorant of the truth. You say you have 2100 at your best but there are plenty of parses on these forums and elsewhere that have more than 5 people doing higher than that.I can tank epic mobs in raids.An example you gave early is EOF fabled monks tanking Labs...that is ridiculous. A KOS legendary plate tank can tank Labs. A KOS fabled scout can tank Labs...actually I think an EOF or KOS legendary scout can tank labs, too. Sure, we *can* tank an epic mob if the healers are on the ball, but if they are on the ball enough to keep your 3100 mitigation self alive they are on the ball enough to keep a 4100 mitigation rogue alive since we barely avoid more than they do. Meanwhile the rogue will hold agro better and do far superior DPS.Obviosly a plate tank is a more efficient option for your healers, while the rogue may just be the more efficient option if you're looking to maximize DPS (though a properly specced guard/zerk can provide enough DPS for the whole raid to go all out so you get the best of both worlds). Any time I can think of where you would consider using a brawler to tank the rogue is the better choice, so why not bring a rogue along instead?I can tank any instance easily.So can scouts.I don't die on the first AoE.Neither does anyone else.I can get fabled gear and masters easily becasue I can farm for cash and loot.Tons of classes can do this for cash - and then they go join raids and get fabled so they don't have to buy them.I can etc etc etcWe can do a lot of stuff. That isn't the problem. The problem is there are other classes who can do all of these things better. The places where we excel (umm...FD?) are not necessary parts of this game.So I'll leave you all to your little group of whining and moaning. No doubt you can all group together and talk about how you driven another player who might give positive feed back about the monk from the official boards. Sad thing is you all actually believe the nonsense you write! Stop whining and maybe the devs might listen to you. Good luck with that one.</blockquote>

Aonach

07-02-2007, 01:56 PM

Other classes can do this, other classes can do that "waaahhhh!" Go read the other classes boards, the moaners on their are just like you, saying their class is crap too. Like I said earlier it's all rather amusing.

Timaarit

07-02-2007, 02:03 PM

Well, I think you belong to those other forums then. I have yet to see a single constructive post from you. Suprices me a bit since you are the only one whining about the lack of those (or rather what you think as such).

Aonach

07-02-2007, 02:06 PM

I gave you all a very constructive post. If you think the monk is so bad then go start one on test and put some test observations to the devs, instead of [I cannot control my vocabulary] and moaning here about how good zerkers and swashies are.Hows that for constructive?Oh I forgot how much fun it was having these little "debates" on these forums.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-02-2007, 05:59 PM

All I've done so far is pointed out logically how there have been a dearth of Brawler upgrades to match the changes made to the game. I guess I get drowned out by all the ad hominem dribble. So far no one has explained why what I posit would be imbalanced. Sorry, not posting it a third time.. you'll have to go back and read what I said. Until there's actual logical arguments made addressing my question, I'm going to assume no one can come up with a real reason.

Cornbread Muffin

07-02-2007, 06:12 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote><strike>Other classes can do this, other classes can do that "waaahhhh!" </strike><strike>Go read the other classes boards, the moaners on their are just like you, saying their class is crap too. Like I said earlier it's all rather amusing.</strike>I have no weak arguments that haven't been refuted left so I'm going to resort to trolling to deflect attention away from my crappy position.</blockquote>There I fixed that for you.I read all of the class forums and none of them look like the brawler forums. The brawler forums remind me of the coercer/illusionist forums back in '05 when they desperately needed improving.

Nerill

07-02-2007, 06:27 PM

My God, Aonach, every post you make reinforces the fact that you are completely clueless about the state of this class. If you are top 5 in DPS on raids, honestly, your raids lack good DPS. Do yourself a big favor and stop making yourself look more and more ignorant. kk thx

Nerill

07-02-2007, 06:53 PM

By the way, to post a few facts that may have gotten lost with the drivel spewed from Aonach: - The Brawler classes are the worst tanks in the fighter tree. - The Brawler classes now find ourselves out DPSed by Zerkers and some Guardians (again our "peers" in the fighter tree ). - Monks specifically offer very little utility: 1) We offer a 21% haste buff for our group 2) We have a very weak defensive debuff 3) We have a very weak AA Sta debuff 4) We have an avoidance buff that most tanks overwrite with their own buff - We offer very mediocre DPS in raids ( 900 - 1100 ) unless we are in a perfect group where we can hit ( 1400 - 1600 ) ... which is still quite short of real DPS classes and any decent scout in our spot in that group would provide much better DPS. - Our best ability in a raid is to be able to heal a member by ~50% ( usually the MT - saving a possible wipe ) Those are facts. Also, if this troll would bother to read the 20+ pages on the In Testing Feedback forum it is clear that the Brawler communities are not asking to be made Gods of this game. We are not asking to top the DPS charts, be turned into the best tanks in the game, or asking for a ton of utility. We are asking for reasonable adjustments and upgrades to our class. Most posts are based on fact and backed up with a plethora of numbers and figures as well as comparisons to other classes. Without comparing, it would be impossible to show where we as a class stand against the other classes in this game. Why is that so difficult for some to understand ? Lack of reading comprehension maybe ????

Gasheron

07-02-2007, 08:22 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Other classes can do this, other classes can do that "waaahhhh!" Go read the other classes boards, the moaners on their are just like you, saying their class is crap too. Like I said earlier it's all rather amusing.</blockquote> Here's the thing Aonach. THERE ARE 23 OTHER CLASSES IN THE GAME. You can't ignore the fact that they ARE in the game.Therefore, with that many classes, there has to be some sort of balance, or else the superior classes will be played exclusively, and the weaker ones will die off. And how does one determine which classes are the weaker ones, and which classes are the stronger ones? By evaluating each class individually against itself? Please.Comparing one class to others to try and reah a balance is what balancing is all about. You can't talk about the strength of a class without talking about how it compares to others. A class could look amazingly strong by itself, but if all the other classes have insta-kill spells, the uber class will be weak in comparison.

Wildfury77

07-02-2007, 08:56 PM

I think hes just pointing out that you guys exaggerate this classes weaknesses and ignore their strengths - just scroll up, u dismiss ANY positive comment! We are a fighter that can DPS a bit, its unlikely SOE is going to give you guys the 1000 extra DPS you all seem to think we can get.......some of you seriously thought it was balanced to keep the strength line and have it WITHOUT weapon restrictions! In the end YOUR WHINING forced SOE to keep the worst AA line!! The proposed changes would have made the strength line viable! ANY decent Fabled or even MC dual weapons with Adorns boosted by other offensive AAs out parses the Strength line. Plus weapons often give HPs and other stats........So the Crowd that wants boosts have succeeded in wrecking a sensible enhancement to a useless line that IMHO only had a role for cheapskates leveling up who didn't want to buy decent weapons <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm still hoping SOE will consider my idea of enhancing us a)Faster AoE taunt timer b)Group avoidance buff (would obviously also increase our own avoidance) c)Enhance our solitary debuff. You guys are never going to get the ridiculous SUPERMAN style buffs/enhancements that you seem to think monks need...............

ArcticBlue182

07-02-2007, 09:01 PM

i dont post in these forums very often and while i dont think our class is broken it is lacking in some areas and i would welcome any of the things talked about by most of the posters in the monk forums or in the "in testing" thread. one thing that does get me tho, when EoF came out i have no fabled a part from 1 weapon and i was about 50/50 m1 and adept3, i was full legendary and claymored upto the raid parts so while not brilliant i was not bad either.. now EoF instances.. were very difficult oob(last named) CoV even in a good group were hard but when i grouped with a zerker and a guard and a paladin with similor gear they didnt have half as as much problems as me, i am not a poor player no i know my class very well. so id like to see people stop saying we are fine for instances sure if u have some/all fabled of course its (very) easy but to the rest believe me it isnt and if its a pick up group with a mixture of skilled payers then... oh so impressed was i with the zerker i rolled <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> sure i miss FD when soloing but hey thats no biggie! but i still love the monk class for all its short comings!

Gasheron

07-02-2007, 09:30 PM

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think hes just pointing out that you guys exaggerate this classes weaknesses and ignore their strengths - just scroll up, u dismiss ANY positive comment! We are a fighter that can DPS a bit, its unlikely SOE is going to give you guys the 1000 extra DPS you all seem to think we can get.......some of you seriously thought it was balanced to keep the strength line and have it WITHOUT weapon restrictions! In the end YOUR WHINING forced SOE to keep the worst AA line!! The proposed changes would have made the strength line viable! ANY decent Fabled or even MC dual weapons with Adorns boosted by other offensive AAs out parses the Strength line. Plus weapons often give HPs and other stats........So the Crowd that wants boosts have succeeded in wrecking a sensible enhancement to a useless line that IMHO only had a role for cheapskates leveling up who didn't want to buy decent weapons <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm still hoping SOE will consider my idea of enhancing us a)Faster AoE taunt timer b)Group avoidance buff (would obviously also increase our own avoidance) c)Enhance our solitary debuff. You guys are never going to get the ridiculous SUPERMAN style buffs/enhancements that you seem to think monks need...............</blockquote>Other monks have posted this, I've posted this, and I'll post it again. The proposed changes were barely any increase, and were more of an insult than anything. .75% per rank CA dmg increase tops out at 6%. The strongest monk CAs deal around 1200 dmg i believe, while most, even mastered, don't get above 1000 dmg. A 1000 dmg CA with the 6% dmg increase goes from 1000 dmg to 1060 dmg. That is all it adds. 60 dmg. How is that a usable increase? How is that an acceptable increase? All it did was show either A) how poorly the devs don't know the monk class that they created, or B) they want to see how much of an insult we can take.BTW the mit increase? It totaled out at what, 320 mit? When the only valid method of tanking is through mit/uncontested avoidance, both of which we lack, how can 320 mit help us? The simple answer, it doesn't. Again, it is an insult to say that these are the changes that the brawler tree needs, especially from a Monk's perspective.BTW us "whiners" didn't want the Str line turned back into what it previously was. If you think that is the case, take a look at the dates of the posts on the thread in the In Testing Feedback forum. The many different proposed changes in there would have made the line viable. The current may not be viable, but neither was their proposed change.Also, what you don't seem to understand is that us "whiners" ARE NOT asking for a huge increase. We ARE NOT saying that we are utterly useless and completely devoid of all capability. We ARE saying that nearly every other class outclasses us, many of which outclass us in EVERYTHING. When a class is outclassed by most other classes in every possible role that can be filled, often in multiple roles at once, how does that mean that we don't need any help?And I'm not talking about the hybrid idea of a Monk. Look at several of the classes us "whiners" constantly compare our class to. Swashies, who can outtank us despite them being pure dps classes. Zerkers/Guardians who are able to outdps us despite being better tanks at the same time, not when in a different spec. Where is our usefulness? What can we do that makes us stand out, and get us our place among the elites, the raiders. FD? Well, when you can find a use for FD in a raid besides an occasional saving 3-5 ppl from some money on their repair cost, I'd love to know. Our debuffs? The -def one is so little that it has next to no effect. Don't believe me? Try it. Lower your own defense skill by 15 and see the change. The -sta looks all nice, but try it out. Lower yourself by the same amount of stamina and see how much your hp goes down. Then compare that amount to the total hps that most mobs have. -500 health on the mob means one less melee hit to kill it. BFD. Oh, maybe its our buffs that give us utility? Well, I'm sure that any raid can go without the 21 group haste we give, since haste comes from so many other sources. And our avoidance buff? Who can we honestly put it on and get use out of it? 'Cause an MT sure as hell won't want it. And those who might want it shouldn't have any need of it.We have never said that we can't do things. But, we do have problems, and they are serious ones. Not class-life-threatening, not yet. But this is the beginning. If we never try to be brought back into balance, the other classes will just get stronger and stronger while we continue to be thrown +6% CA dmg AAs. What we need is help, not people who come here and start yelling at those who ARE trying to get us balanced in the game because we don't think Monks are "awesome, amazing, and the coolest class ever." (BTW that wasn't a direct quote. It was in quotes for emphasis of the sarcastic nature of the statement.)To Arctic-Actually, we aren't that bad for heroic instances. We can get spikes that can ruin our day for a bit, but by paying attention and a some skill with pulling, we can be pretty decent. When Unrest was first released, I tanked it 3 times, 3 days in a row, with barely any problems. I'm a lv 70, who at the time still didn't have a single mastered skill, no fabled equip, and only around 75 AAs. Of course, the rest of my group had a lot to do with it, but it wasn't that bad.This isn't to say that a similarly geared plate tank could'nt have done the same easier with a lot less skill and attention, though. But, we can do heroic content quite well. Just gotta pay a lot more attention than most, and have luck on yer side.

Nerill

07-02-2007, 10:50 PM

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-03-2007, 02:50 AM

Yeah, I'd really like to know where these "superman" and "jack of all trades, masters of all" requests are. Who is asking for 1000 more zonewide DPS? Who is asking for 96% double attack while dual wielding weapons? No one has asked for any of this. Most of the people who provided some kind of idea for a suggested fix are those that have played the Brawler class and know it inside out, and most likely have played multiple other types of classes (how else do we get on raids). The changes requested aren't anything crazy overpowered or a master of all trades. And as of yet, no one has ever been able to explain exactly how the changes would break anything. I'm not sure what the point of posting is for a few folks out there... maybe it's just to try and "pwn" people and "burn" them. Maybe they just want to try and make others look stupid or call them names. Maybe that's how they get their rocks off. Whatever. It's not appreciated here. Most of us are trying to have an intelligent discussion about potential changes and improvements to the Brawler class. I have nothing against being told my ideas aren't feasible if the person explains why and avoids trying to call me names in the process. Maybe that explains it. The only opposition to our ideas is from people who want to troll and make fun of people. Since there's no logical opposition to our ideas, they must be sound and reasonable ones. The Devs should take note of that.

Timaarit

07-03-2007, 04:43 AM

Aonach

07-03-2007, 04:50 AM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Maybe that explains it. The only opposition to our ideas is from people who want to troll and make fun of people. Since there's no logical opposition to our ideas, they must be sound and reasonable ones. The Devs should take note of that. </blockquote> Ermmm, no. There is no "logical opposition" because everything you post on here is nothing but miserable rhetoric. Why do you think the devs don't post here? It's because the board is full to the brim of people moaning about how terrible the class is. This goes against the fact the majority of players in the game are or seem to be happy with their monks and play them on a daily basis.So I will repeat once again the most sensible thing I've heard in thsi thread so far. If you want to change the monk class then roll a monk on the test server and start making your observations properly to the devs, instead of moaning on here all the time about how good other classes are compared to monks and making them sound like the worst class in the game. Which they are not, by a long margin.I bet loads of people have stopped even reading these forums because every thread gets turned into "yeah but zerks do that better" or "we need more DPS threads". Look at all the posts in the last week? 80% or more have been to do with how bad the monk is. It's woeful!And before you post back "yeah but they were all in reponse to you". All I'm trying to do is make some people see that we aren't as bad as all you doom mongers make us out to be! Only person who seems to get that so far is Wildfury so /cheer wildfury <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

ArcticBlue182

07-03-2007, 05:00 AM

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think hes just pointing out that you guys exaggerate this classes weaknesses and ignore their strengths - just scroll up, u dismiss ANY positive comment! We are a fighter that can DPS a bit, its unlikely SOE is going to give you guys the 1000 extra DPS you all seem to think we can get.......some of you seriously thought it was balanced to keep the strength line and have it WITHOUT weapon restrictions! In the end YOUR WHINING forced SOE to keep the worst AA line!! The proposed changes would have made the strength line viable! ANY decent Fabled or even MC dual weapons with Adorns boosted by other offensive AAs out parses the Strength line. Plus weapons often give HPs and other stats........So the Crowd that wants boosts have succeeded in wrecking a sensible enhancement to a useless line that IMHO only had a role for cheapskates leveling up who didn't want to buy decent weapons <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm still hoping SOE will consider my idea of enhancing us a)Faster AoE taunt timer b)Group avoidance buff (would obviously also increase our own avoidance) c)Enhance our solitary debuff. You guys are never going to get the ridiculous SUPERMAN style buffs/enhancements that you seem to think monks need...............</blockquote>Other monks have posted this, I've posted this, and I'll post it again. The proposed changes were barely any increase, and were more of an insult than anything. .75% per rank CA dmg increase tops out at 6%. The strongest monk CAs deal around 1200 dmg i believe, while most, even mastered, don't get above 1000 dmg. A 1000 dmg CA with the 6% dmg increase goes from 1000 dmg to 1060 dmg. That is all it adds. 60 dmg. How is that a usable increase? How is that an acceptable increase? All it did was show either A) how poorly the devs don't know the monk class that they created, or B) they want to see how much of an insult we can take.BTW the mit increase? It totaled out at what, 320 mit? When the only valid method of tanking is through mit/uncontested avoidance, both of which we lack, how can 320 mit help us? The simple answer, it doesn't. Again, it is an insult to say that these are the changes that the brawler tree needs, especially from a Monk's perspective.BTW us "whiners" didn't want the Str line turned back into what it previously was. If you think that is the case, take a look at the dates of the posts on the thread in the In Testing Feedback forum. The many different proposed changes in there would have made the line viable. The current may not be viable, but neither was their proposed change.Also, what you don't seem to understand is that us "whiners" ARE NOT asking for a huge increase. We ARE NOT saying that we are utterly useless and completely devoid of all capability. We ARE saying that nearly every other class outclasses us, many of which outclass us in EVERYTHING. When a class is outclassed by most other classes in every possible role that can be filled, often in multiple roles at once, how does that mean that we don't need any help?And I'm not talking about the hybrid idea of a Monk. Look at several of the classes us "whiners" constantly compare our class to. Swashies, who can outtank us despite them being pure dps classes. Zerkers/Guardians who are able to outdps us despite being better tanks at the same time, not when in a different spec. Where is our usefulness? What can we do that makes us stand out, and get us our place among the elites, the raiders. FD? Well, when you can find a use for FD in a raid besides an occasional saving 3-5 ppl from some money on their repair cost, I'd love to know. Our debuffs? The -def one is so little that it has next to no effect. Don't believe me? Try it. Lower your own defense skill by 15 and see the change. The -sta looks all nice, but try it out. Lower yourself by the same amount of stamina and see how much your hp goes down. Then compare that amount to the total hps that most mobs have. -500 health on the mob means one less melee hit to kill it. BFD. Oh, maybe its our buffs that give us utility? Well, I'm sure that any raid can go without the 21 group haste we give, since haste comes from so many other sources. And our avoidance buff? Who can we honestly put it on and get use out of it? 'Cause an MT sure as hell won't want it. And those who might want it shouldn't have any need of it.We have never said that we can't do things. But, we do have problems, and they are serious ones. Not class-life-threatening, not yet. But this is the beginning. If we never try to be brought back into balance, the other classes will just get stronger and stronger while we continue to be thrown +6% CA dmg AAs. What we need is help, not people who come here and start yelling at those who ARE trying to get us balanced in the game because we don't think Monks are "awesome, amazing, and the coolest class ever." (BTW that wasn't a direct quote. It was in quotes for emphasis of the sarcastic nature of the statement.)To Arctic-Actually, we aren't that bad for heroic instances. We can get spikes that can ruin our day for a bit, but by paying attention and a some skill with pulling, we can be pretty decent. When Unrest was first released, I tanked it 3 times, 3 days in a row, with barely any problems. I'm a lv 70, who at the time still didn't have a single mastered skill, no fabled equip, and only around 75 AAs. Of course, the rest of my group had a lot to do with it, but it wasn't that bad.This isn't to say that a similarly geared plate tank could'nt have done the same easier with a lot less skill and attention, though. But, we can do heroic content quite well. Just gotta pay a lot more attention than most, and have luck on yer side. </blockquote> i agree with everything you said there, as for the heroic instances i agree i also tanked unrest again i was in a very good group thought it must be said.. but why should we need the element of luck on our side to do things when a guard for example doesnt if it was down to pure skill then i can live with that but at the moment it isnt.. i know most 99% of all this is to do with raiding of which i do on my monk sometimes but my troubador is usually needed more but i just think its to easy sometimes for people to say we are great at X or Y then you see their gear and fully fabled or very close well ofcourse its easy, i was mealy trying to speak up for the less equipped monks out there or the none raiders who will never get any fabled etc etc. keep in mind that if we are "just fine" in all other aspects of the game apart from raiding then the dev's might see any improvements as making us *shock* *horror* over powered and thats why they re frame from doing it. just a thought!

Aonach

07-03-2007, 05:43 AM

<cite>ArcticBlue182 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i agree with everything you said there, as for the heroic instances i agree i also tanked unrest again i was in a very good group thought it must be said.. but why should we need the element of luck on our side to do things when a guard for example doesnt if it was down to pure skill then i can live with that but at the moment it isnt..If you were in a very good group and you tanked unrest with your monk then it had nothing to do with luck. It was because your group were happy to have a monk tank it and you as a monk were capable and skillful enough to do the job. These are the kind of posts I'm talking about, monks can do these things and if more monks went out and done it instead of sitting in QH thinking they can't then monks would be seen in a much better light. i know most 99% of all this is to do with raiding of which i do on my monk sometimes but my troubador is usually needed more but i just think its to easy sometimes for people to say we are great at X or Y then you see their gear and fully fabled or very close well ofcourse its easy, i was mealy trying to speak up for the less equipped monks out there or the none raiders who will never get any fabled etc etc.But the "lesser geared" monks aren't on here complaining because I bet you any money they aren't having any problems in the game. I know I didn't have any issues at all while gearing my monk up. keep in mind that if we are "just fine" in all other aspects of the game apart from raiding then the dev's might see any improvements as making us *shock* *horror* over powered and thats why they re frame from doing it. just a thought!And there is indeed the problem. Don't you think that if the devs could give us these extra things that people are on here asking for that they wouldn't have already? The problem is balance. If you cater for the casual gamer and give him all these buffs to make his game easier, then the end game, equipped, raiding monk is suddenly soloing entire KoS instances. I know people who are almsot doing it now with their bruiser. What would be really interesting is to get some kind of feedback from a monk who is testing the class on the test server. Now they might be worth listening to because there doesn't seem to be much on the testing feedback forum about it. </blockquote>

Timaarit

07-03-2007, 06:03 AM

You are still quite qrong Aonach. But you do have some vague idea about what is wrong. As it is, monks are well balanced in PvP. That is the main reason why the devs are not giving the needed upgrade. Yes, they did say that the PvP will not affect PvE but they did actually lie, they already knew they werent able to keep that promice but they promised anyway to keep people quiet. Balancing PvP has lead to huge nerfs and imbalances in PvE. If you still think that PvE monk is balanced, they I want you to answer the following questions: Is it balanced when the better tank, zerker, can out-DPS the worse tank, monk? Is it balanced when the better DPS, rogue, can tank all the heroic content just as well as the worse DPS, monk? Is it balanced when bruisers get 9% double attack on their EoF fabled set and monks get 10point less reduction on defence, 10 more haste and 10 to all attack skills on our offensive stance? Here is a hint: No, it is not.

Anjin

07-03-2007, 06:06 AM

I guess you'll continue thinking what you want to think.ATM brawlers are not worth their slot in a raid. A raid would be better served replacing a monk a number of other classes.Warriors are have better skills etc to MT & OT. Many classes DPS higher than monks. Monks provide little utility apart from potentially saving menders. Monks have weak debuffs.When are you going to get of your high horse! For Heroic encounters, yay a monk can tank and dps (although a Rogue can too). It's totally different in a raid though. For somebody who has been MT for a top raiding guild you seem utterly clueless.There have been countless posts regarding the raid viability of monks and looking at solutions including providing more debuffs, enhancing dev fist to include a % dmg to epics etc. Also, if you think that there are a lot of whiners on the monks forums, you should look at the berserker/guardian forums when they think they are being treated badly.

Zabjade

07-03-2007, 06:16 AM

Also not that Many Brawlers have Bruisers and Monks already on Test server, it does little good.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-03-2007, 08:22 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Maybe that explains it. The only opposition to our ideas is from people who want to troll and make fun of people. Since there's no logical opposition to our ideas, they must be sound and reasonable ones. The Devs should take note of that. </blockquote> Ermmm, no. There is no "logical opposition" because everything you post on here is nothing but miserable rhetoric. Why do you think the devs don't post here? It's because the board is full to the brim of people moaning about how terrible the class is. This goes against the fact the majority of players in the game are or seem to be happy with their monks and play them on a daily basis.So I will repeat once again the most sensible thing I've heard in thsi thread so far. If you want to change the monk class then roll a monk on the test server and start making your observations properly to the devs, instead of moaning on here all the time about how good other classes are compared to monks and making them sound like the worst class in the game. Which they are not, by a long margin.I bet loads of people have stopped even reading these forums because every thread gets turned into "yeah but zerks do that better" or "we need more DPS threads". Look at all the posts in the last week? 80% or more have been to do with how bad the monk is. It's woeful!And before you post back "yeah but they were all in reponse to you". All I'm trying to do is make some people see that we aren't as bad as all you doom mongers make us out to be! Only person who seems to get that so far is Wildfury so /cheer wildfury <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> You state opinions and things that are impossible for you to know as if they are "facts". You are also putting words in our mouths, saying we said things we haven't actually said, and basically saying you are right because we are doing things which we aren't doing. You are trying to parade an opinion as if it's fact (how can you know how all brawlers feel?), you use <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">personal attack</a>, <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">appeal to ridicule</a>, <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">begging the question</a>, <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">circumstantial ad hominem</a>, and <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">slippery slope</a> fallacies. Pretty much a poster child for fallacious arguments. Basically, everything that you say has absolutely no value in any form of practical discussion, as you neither respond to any points made, nor intend to allow any discussion occur any further from what you say. You are the worst offender of practical discussion in that you continue to derail any development into useless banter, stunting any potential progress. Unless you start to provide some more tangible response that touches on the "why" of your opinion, hopefully without the name-calling and derogatory comments, we're basically going to have to dismiss you as worse than useless to this discussion. I'll finish by repeating my main driving point so that it might be clear, and not considered the extreme concepts that have been tossed around to "disprove" our point. Brawlers are by no means completely broken. We are functional, and still fun to play. I continue to consider my Bruiser my main character, and still improve his abilities above my alts. Most of my play time has been spent playing my Bruiser, you can look at my profile. I am not Doom Mongering. However, this does not mean we are efficient in our roles, and balanced compared to the rest of the classes. The things requested in AA changes and brawler specific class changes are not major overhauls. They are not LU13 level changes to the game to make Brawlers the super-class. They are minor tweaks that would bring the classes up to speed with the recent changes to the game (combat changes and tier 7 fundementals), mirroring the changes made to the rest of the classes to make them viable. We can still be fun to play, and simultaneously not as "good" as we should be to make this game more balanced. This only affects a portion of the gameplay too, so not everyone will even see the problems being talked about. That doesn't mean they aren't there, and shouldn't be addressed. All that is being asked is that the same consideration be made for Brawlers, that have already been made for the other classes out there.

Aonach

07-03-2007, 09:11 AM

Listen to how far up your backsides you guys are? You really need to take a step back and look at what you are posting to people who happen to disagree with your point of view? I'm not wrong as far as i'm concerned, I don't come accross these terrible problems you have on a daily basis so I have no empathy for your stand point and I certainly don't agree with the way you think you are trying to sort it.Sure the monk class needs to be tweaked, I bet every class feels they do but the sky isn't falling. At no time do you guys ever acknowledge anything positive posted on these baords, it's all doom and gloom, if it wasn't so amusing ot would be pathetic.

ArcticBlue182

07-03-2007, 09:22 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ArcticBlue182 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i agree with everything you said there, as for the heroic instances i agree i also tanked unrest again i was in a very good group thought it must be said.. but why should we need the element of luck on our side to do things when a guard for example doesnt if it was down to pure skill then i can live with that but at the moment it isnt..If you were in a very good group and you tanked unrest with your monk then it had nothing to do with luck. It was because your group were happy to have a monk tank it and you as a monk were capable and skillful enough to do the job. These are the kind of posts I'm talking about, monks can do these things and if more monks went out and done it instead of sitting in QH thinking they can't then monks would be seen in a much better light. i know most 99% of all this is to do with raiding of which i do on my monk sometimes but my troubador is usually needed more but i just think its to easy sometimes for people to say we are great at X or Y then you see their gear and fully fabled or very close well ofcourse its easy, i was mealy trying to speak up for the less equipped monks out there or the none raiders who will never get any fabled etc etc.But the "lesser geared" monks aren't on here complaining because I bet you any money they aren't having any problems in the game. I know I didn't have any issues at all while gearing my monk up.you would be surprised how many people dont use/know about these forums i know of people who have been playing this game for over 2 years and rarely use these forums or didnt know they were here.. also when people come to these forums (not just the monk but in general) and all they see are post after post about raiding as if thats the be all and end all of the game they dont bother to post and dont bother to come back, i my self very rarely use these forums apart form to see the up coming changes now a days.1 last thing, if we are just as good then why do you see so many people asking for "plate tank neded" for EoF instance run keep in mind that if we are "just fine" in all other aspects of the game apart from raiding then the dev's might see any improvements as making us *shock* *horror* over powered and thats why they re frame from doing it. just a thought!And there is indeed the problem. Don't you think that if the devs could give us these extra things that people are on here asking for that they wouldn't have already? The problem is balance. If you cater for the casual gamer and give him all these buffs to make his game easier, then the end game, equipped, raiding monk is suddenly soloing entire KoS instances. I know people who are almsot doing it now with their bruiser. What would be really interesting is to get some kind of feedback from a monk who is testing the class on the test server. Now they might be worth listening to because there doesn't seem to be much on the testing feedback forum about it. </blockquote> </blockquote> when you geared up your monk you said you already had a raid equiped zerker or did i reas that wrong.. so im guessing you had a fair amount of Plat to spend as well as crafters in your guild to make you the MC leather armour you needed etc etc, which is hardly the same as kitting your self out when you have no cash to spend as i did, however i have been able to kit my zerker out in MC gear from the off maybe thats why i found it so easy.

Aonach

07-03-2007, 09:30 AM

Arctic - I bet that anyone starting a monk and coming on to these forums would instantly delete it and reroll due to all the negative crap thats on here. Another wonderful "shoot yourself in the foot" move from the habitual negative crowd. Less monks probably means less dev attention in SoE world.The reason that people ask for plate tanks is because of the amount of monks who can't actually play the class. If more people actually played the class and did the job properly then you would see less and less of the "plate tank" shouts. If I go LFG I get tank requests all the time, problem is I don't always want to tank and would rather slackon DPS, offtank role <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yes I did have the plat to allow me to buy new sets on MC'd gear as I was levelling and I don't deny for a second that it made my levelling easier. I might add however that it wasn't jsut the armour that made levelling easy. The monk was the easiest to level out of the four level 70 characters i have. The easiest by a long shot.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-03-2007, 09:40 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Listen to how far up your backsides you guys are? You really need to take a step back and look at what you are posting to people who happen to disagree with your point of view? I'm not wrong as far as i'm concerned, I don't come accross these terrible problems you have on a daily basis so I have no empathy for your stand point and I certainly don't agree with the way you think you are trying to sort it.Sure the monk class needs to be tweaked, I bet every class feels they do but the sky isn't falling. At no time do you guys ever acknowledge anything positive posted on these baords, it's all doom and gloom, if it wasn't so amusing ot would be pathetic.</blockquote> You are either not talking to me, or not reading my posts.. because I'm saying exactly what you've said. That we are a good class, that just needs some tweaks. I mean... you post this literally right after my paragraphs saying how we are generally good and need some tweaking to be properly balanced and properly efficient. And then continue with avoiding responding in any real meaningful way and basically tell off anyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm curious if you are reading what we say at all (aside from the few posts you quote and respond to specifically)... do you see other people's names and assume we are immediately talking about +1000 DPS and uber tankage? I mean.. what terrible problems are we stating exactly? Are you even reading my posts?

Aonach

07-03-2007, 09:50 AM

Read the thread, look at all the posts from people asking to have better tanking so they can be more like zerkers AND better DPS so the can be more like swashies. I'm not going back to cut and paste them but you will see them.It's reasonable to assume by the way that the devs are moving the AA's of the monk that something fairly substantial is going to happen to DPS across the board in GU 37. It's also fair to assume that the devs are already worried about the fact that the monk is an uber solo class and an uber PvP class. So what makes people think that just by saying again and again that zerks out tank monks and swahies out DPS monks that the devs are going to change anything like that?If people want more requirement for a monk on a raid then they aint going to get it by requesting monks become zerks, swashies or a super hybrid of both of them. It would seem logical to me that the obvious route for raid tweaking is to go down the utility route or to make us more group friendly buff wise. Yes I know there are posts like that on here but they get drowned out amongst teh "I want more Dps and to be a better tank" background noise. There is no way that the devs are going to give us more DPS or more tanking skills, we are good enough at both already.

Wildfury77

07-03-2007, 09:51 AM

The screams of "Group looking for platetank" are mostly down to monks playing badly and refusing to TANK!I joined a non (optimum) REye Group that had 2 other monks in it.....both 2 lvls higher.The healer (a warden) sighed and asked who wanted to "try and tank" - i volunteered at which point both of the other monks said "thats fine - i try to avoid tanking.......". The healer (group leader said - he was going to kick one monk and get a PT.....). I begged him to give it a shot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We cleared multiple nameds, every person in the group gained 1 PvP title from the number of dead freeps......I felt a sense of victory about halfway through when the Warden mumbled "Geez.....i'm barely having to heal......" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ANY well specced fighter class (including monks) can MT if they know what they are doing....the trouble is the vast majority of monks don't want to and would prefer to play a DPS class!!

Timaarit

07-03-2007, 09:53 AM

Still trolling Aonach... You have posted nothing constructive. Nothing. As far as we, note the plural, are concerned, you are wrong. I haven't seen any other monk support your posts. Several people from other classes though who 'have a friend whose friend knows these things'. Even the poster who thinks monks are the best class thinks we need tweaking. So you are alone in your crusade to keep brawlers in permanent stasis.

Aonach

07-03-2007, 09:56 AM

Timaarit Ive stopped listening to you. You are mr negativity, even on the other thread you are trying to dismantle a post from a monk who said he is tanking chel. It's pathetic. Just stop playing your monk because you obviously hate it.

Kota

07-03-2007, 10:00 AM

owe noe ewe ditn't you're saying ppl ask for plate tanks because there are too many monks that don't know how to play their class. this is admission of being wrong, because if the general populace would take plate tank over a monk w/o knowing the skill of the monk, or the plate tank. that indicates that the general populace perceives monks as lousy tanks. after 2+ yrs ppl generally see us as lousy tanks. i went thru OoB the other night for kicks, and the group asked if 2 healers would be enough.

Aonach

07-03-2007, 10:02 AM

They might see you as a lousy tank, no-one sees me as a lousy tank mate. Maybe you need to go brush up on your skills a wee bit?

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-03-2007, 10:12 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Read the thread, look at all the posts from people asking to have better tanking so they can be more like zerkers AND better DPS so the can be more like swashies. </blockquote> We can add <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Strawman</a> fallacy to your list of tactics. No where in this thread does someone ask for both the tanking of a Zerker AND the DPS of a swashy. Some people are asking for fixes to the tanking ability so they can be viable tanks. Others are saying we should have enough DPS to be viable DPS options. I've read this entire thread, and other threads out there. Nobody is saying what you are saying. In fact, you are the only person who is spewing this. Can we lay off the vitriol, please? Is it fun to basically be the forum equivalent of a school kid saying "Yeah, well you're stupid, so there!"? Is a rational, respectful response asking too much here?

Timaarit

07-03-2007, 10:20 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timaarit Ive stopped listening to you. You are mr negativity, even on the other thread you are trying to dismantle a post from a monk who said he is tanking chel. It's pathetic. Just stop playing your monk because you obviously hate it.</blockquote>Well, I doubt anyone has ever listened to you. The reason why we are responding to your posts is that we hope the devs wont either. Btw, he did NOT say he was tanking Chel, he said he has occasionally tanked the adds when there has been no plate tanks available. But I see you still refuse to make even a single constructive post. It is pathetic.

Shankonia

07-03-2007, 10:20 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>They might see you as a lousy tank, no-one sees me as a lousy tank mate. Maybe you need to go brush up on your skills a wee bit?</blockquote> I see you as a lousy tank. I see you as a lousy tank because your a monk.You may be a good Monk tank. You know what though? You're nowhere near as good of a tank as my friend who is a Zerker, my friend who is a Paladin or especially my friend who is a Guardian.No offense or anything mate. The truth hurts, but it is what it is.

Timaarit

07-03-2007, 10:21 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>They might see you as a lousy tank, no-one sees me as a lousy tank mate. </blockquote>That doesn't mean that he is or that you aren't.

Kota

07-03-2007, 11:03 AM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>They might see you as a lousy tank, no-one sees me as a lousy tank mate. Maybe you need to go brush up on your skills a wee bit?</blockquote>now you're just poppin off at the mouth. as far as monks go, i'm on the upside of good as far as tanking. don't ack all hard like yer so good at playing a monk. not a whole lot of skill involved imo. get gear/spells, figure out what buttons to mash and when, and you're good to go. my point is, that there is a reason so many ppl ask for plate tanks. why should i/we have to 'prove' ourselves every time we group with someone new ? i have never left a group thinking i was a lousy tank. more often than not, when i tank for strangers, they say something along the lines of 'wow, a monk can tank'. those same ppl have seen scouts tank the same stuff however. there is no advantage in taking a monk as a tank. so yeah, "group looking for plate tank" will continue, and monks will continue being the leftover class.

Aonach

07-03-2007, 11:47 AM

Haha look at you. Reams and reams of nothing. Everyone having a little go at me because I don't agree that monks are terrible. Twisting the things i say and trying to making them stick. Seems to me only about ten people post on this board and seven of you think monks suck. Brilliant.

Flanikz

07-03-2007, 12:19 PM

Know what.....Altho i do think Monks need a boost in DPS, I dont think we need a boost in tanking.I didnt make my monk expecting to tank epics, but i did make my monk expecting to raid........24 classes, 24 player raids.Seems to me that there is a similairity here.....Could it be that the Devs desighend it to be that the perfect raid make up is one of each class?This just isnt the case ......Each class should bring a defineing ability to a raid force. if not a single ability such as life burn, man burn, verdict...Then a group of abilities, group buffs, wards, heals, dps.The monk/bruiser has none of those in any defineing manner, yes we are OK dps, we have one massive heal, but niether is enough for a raid leader to choose a monk over another class.If your looking for raid DPS you dont look for a monk, if your looking for heals, you dont look for a monk.In EQ1 you needed a monk on raids to split mobs, so monks got the roll of "puller", which was allot fo fun.It was a game mechanics situation that has been removed in EQ2.So what is the current raid roll for a monk?I am still miffed at the cry babies for getting the boost in our DPS taken away, wasnt as big as some wanted, but i think it would have kicked our DPS up far more than what some had in mind.This would have had similiar results for bruisers as well.However seeing as bruisers are better tanks, and more dps than the monk class, something needs to be done to the monk class in specific to even us out to bruisers.After that is done, we both need some defineing ability to bring us to a raid force.These dont have to be some uber ability that makes us way over powered for heroic encounters.....Heck matter of fact, I have plenty of CA's that DONT effect epic targets.......... What stops them from giveing me an ability that effects EPICS ONLY?I would suggest actually a copy cat CA of verdict, something high damage but long casting, that is useless on heroics simply because of the cast time and 2% restrictions, heroics are dead long before you can use verdict.We have a version of this with devestation fist.........But again useless on epics.

Dorieon

07-03-2007, 12:45 PM

Wow, this thing has turned semi ugly. Aonach, I see your point. But you are definitely being closed minded. I'm sorry if this is wrong or maybe offends but it almost seems like A) you are a trying to derail the thread and discredit ideas because you have a plate tank or... B) You are just a career thread derailer that enjoys arguments. I will agree with you on several statements though.-Monks are not broken. We need some tweaks but we are not 'broke'.-We are great solo. Just tonight I solo'd a 68^^^ named. It took 3 tries and 2 miracles plus potions but I did it. Other classes could do it easier but the challenge was nice. -I have tanked every zone in the game. It really doesn't take uber skill just more attention to keep agro, especially if you have a warlock in the group. -There are a few 'whiners' in the monk forums. I have even personally posted very drunk and in a bad mood for some ridiculous changes. But most have not posted in this thread. Most of what has been posted has been constructive and reasonable. -We have to make due with what we have until we get a update. I dropped my pure dps spec to get altruism and I have noticed that it has saved more raids than its been wasted on. I spend half of a raid looking around to see if the MT/OT needs my heal or if I should throw Intercede on one of them or staying in on named during an AoE using my master's evasion+trainquility buff. All that and still parsing ok (1100-1500 zw). My guild still prefers to have pull tough encounters over a pet because I am more effective at it. There are several uses for monks/brawlers in a raid, but most here are right that those uses don't make us 'needed/wanted' like other classes. -I also think that the big brawler update is coming in the RoK expansion, but that doesn't help us much now.For everyone else (who I agree with even more).- Our tanking is subpar (on raids) because SOE has not figured out avoidance tanking. It was fine pre DoF but due to plate tanks complaining they changed it and have not been able to even it out. I say keep 'whining' thats how they got us nerfed. Just don't say that they should be nerfed (which no one so far has) or it becomes a never ending cylcle. - Our dps is 'ok', its not great and compared to other fighters it should go up a bit. Not comparable with predators or rogues but it should go up. At release we were explained as dps tanks, meaning we kept agro through dps (which everyone here probably understands). However, Zerkers are the wrong class to compare against on dps. Guards/SK's/Pally's are fine but Zerkers are in a similar predicament as us (I do not have a Zerker or any other tank alt). They get less effective taunts than Gaurds and are supposed to keep agro through dps. We should out parse them on most single/double mobs but anything over that they should beat us imo. I do think it shouldn't be as close as it currently is though. Also, for those of you (if any) that need to hear this...take it upon yourself to research the best classes to be grouped with in raids. Everyone wants the dirge, but look at getting an inquis in the group. Fury's are nice but half of agitate is wasted on you. Other classes I noticed great results with are coercers, zerkers, and troubs (but they are mostly haste as far as I can tell). There is one more that I am not remembering but you get the point. -Utility we just suck on. Everyone keep 'whining' imo.For SoE if they decide to read this thread.-I have stated it another thread, but when most 'raiding guilds' will not even accept applications from a monk ...then maybe there is something wrong.-When I join a pick up group and without seeing either of us play, the group wants the rogue to tank... there is something wrong.-When somone joins my Unrest (or any other zone) group and says "you know we need a plate tank for this" and then drops even though I and the others in group have seen me tank the zone... there is something wrong. -When a group sends in chat they need a tank and dps and I send a reply but am ignored or told flat out that they would prefer a plate tank or that they are looking for a scout/mage for dps...there is something wrong. There is no planned direction for brawlers that I can see. I don't want to be a 'Superman' as Aonach said, but it would be nice to make a bigger difference in raids for my guild. A group/group friend buff or two might make all the difference (and not haste, there are too many already out there).

Gasheron

07-03-2007, 12:46 PM

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha look at you. Reams and reams of nothing. Everyone having a little go at me because I don't agree that monks are terrible. Twisting the things i say and trying to making them stick. Seems to me only about ten people post on this board and seven of you think monks suck. Brilliant.</blockquote> You honestly don't know how to interpret what you read, do you? I hate resorting to put downs, but this has got to stop.Read above your post. They quoted you and responded. That's what they did.Now read further up. You say that we all complain 'cause we don't have the tanking ability of a zerker or the dps of a scout. However, if you reread what we've said, our complaints are that we don't match the DPS of a zerker while still being outtanked, while scouts, who are much higher dps than us, have relatively our, if not better, tanking capability. Two seperate complaints, that are the opposite of what you say we are complaining about.It is you twisting things around, not us.BTW, how many of those groups that you always get, and tank requests you always have, are from friends/guildmates?Lastly, you do have some good ideas, and do seem to know, at least on a smaller level, what is wrong with the class. Just because YOU haven't experienced what many others have experienced, however, doesn't mean you can argue the way you do. This thread has become one giant argument between us "whiners" and you & Wildfury. We don't need more arguing amongst ourselves. We need help, and we need to be rebalanced in the PVE game so that we can finally become viable for some role. We are mid to low in the strength of every possible role in the game, while every other class (cept bruisers) is at least strong in one of these roles. This leads to us being the outcasts of the game, the people not looked for, or even wanted, just... there. Yes we need utility, and yes we need something to define our primary role better, whether that is a dps increase or fixing avoidance, and i doubt there's a monk in the game that can deny this. The perception of a monk is what hurts us most in this game, and cannot be solved with the incredibly minor boosts/nerfs we've been receiving so far.