here's an idea

[Lilflier]

<p>Sony released the game.   STOP CHANGING THE RULES.   Never in my life have i played any game of any sort where the rules of the game changed in the middle of the game.   There is no popular game or sport where the rules change in the middle of the game.  In a basketball game, if one team is beating another team by an excessive margin, the losing team doesn't get to play with an extra man or shoot on a wider basket.  The winning team doesn't have to play a man down, or substitute in their shorter and slower players.  When updates are released for simulation or sports games, they don't change the rules or wipe out what has been done.  They fix bugs or add content.  Which leades to another question.  Why are there developers working on the current portion of the game?  Shouldn't developers be working on new content? or new features?  Why are they messing with what has already been put in place?  Why I have put up with this crap for so long I can't figure out.   I start to really enjoy things and then they come along and make me very frustrated and angry by removing or changing something i spent four or five months trying get.   </p>

[Rattfa]

Actually, you're quite wrong. Most sports actually have rule changes season by season as the sport evolves. Also you are using sports sims as an example? They compare directly to their real life counterparts. What does EQ2 relate to? Real life? Play any MMO and they are constantly evolving. That is the nature of any MMO. Don't like it? Don't play it.

[liveja]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Never in my life have i played any game of any sort where the rules of the game changed in the middle of the game.</p></blockquote><p>Then this must be your very first MMO.</p><p>Welcome to MMORPG-land, enjoy your stay. </p>

[TheSpin]

<p>While I know what you're trying to say, I think you're missing a few points in your argument that really weaken it.  Not to mention it's hard to read a post without a little white space between key points.</p><p>(white space)</p><p>No sporting even lasts years, only an hour maybe.  EQ2 is constantly running and you can't apply rules to a single sporting event to it; you can more closely apply the evolution of rules over time.  The rules of many things change, sporting events included.  For example, I was told in a volleyball game a few weeks ago that it was legal to kick the ball to keep it in play.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>True , all things evolve and with evolution must come some change. However, I tend to agree with the OP. it is very disheartening to spend a lot of time working towards a goal and achieve it, ie. obtain a certain item in game, spell, whatever... and then have it nerfed so that it is not useful to you anymore. That is the largest problem I have with most of the nerfs.</p><p>Its not so much a progression of an evolution as it is creating articifical time sinks. One item gets nerfed and something else gets introduced which is about the same or marginally better than the nerfed item which creates a time sink for people to get back to where they were pre-nerf.</p><p>Sure, I am all for changes. let's get new content, new zones, new mobs (heck, sometimes mobs need to be changed based on thier intended use although it seems they are always be changed downward - mayeb SOE needs to put more planning and thought into their intended use and appropriate levels in to begin with), fix bugs, add new features and fix broken ones BUT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE quit nerfing players items, spells and such. It creates a mentality of "why should I spend time on this when SOE is just going to take it away from me anyway?".</p><p>I love the game so please dont get me wrong, just have to agree that instead of nerfing items and arts people have already spent a lot of time earning the focus should be in the points mentioned above. </p><p>My 2cp anyway...</p>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

<p>You've obviously never heard of Calvinball:</p><p> <b>The <i>Unofficially</i> Official Rules of Calvinball</b></p><p>1.1. All players must wear a Calvinball mask (See Calvinball Equipment - 2.1). No one questions the masks (Figure 2.1). <i><b>*IMPORTANT -- <b>The following rules are subject to be changed, amended, or deleted by any player(s) involved. </b></b></i><img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/SoHo/Nook/2990/newrule.gif" border="0"> 1.2 Any player may declare a new rule at any point in the game (Figure 1.2). The player may do this audibly or silently depending on what zone (Refer to Rule 1.5) the player is in. 1.3. A player may use the Calvinball (See Calvinball Equipment - 2.2)in any way the player see fits, whether it be to incur injury upon other players or to gain benefits for himself. 1.4. Any penalty legislation may be in the form of pain, embarassment, or any degradation the rulee wishes to execute upon the other player. <img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/SoHo/Nook/2990/coroll.gif" border="0">1.5 The Calvinball Field (See Calvinball Equipment - 2.3) should consist of areas, or zones, which are governed by a set of rules declared by players. Zones may be appear and disappear as often and wherever the player decides. For example, a corollary zone would enable a player to make a corollary (sub-rule) to any rule already made. Or a pernicious poem place would require the intruder to do what the name implies. Or an opposite zone would enable a player to declare reverse playibility on the others. (Remember, the player would declare this zone <i>oppositely</i> by not declaring it.) (Figure 1.5a and 1.5b) <img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/SoHo/Nook/2990/bflag.gif" border="0"> 1.6 Flags (Calvinball Equipment 2.3) shall be named by players whom shall also assign the power and rules which shall govern that flag (Figure 1.6). 1.7 Songs are an integral part of Calvinball and verses must be sung spontaneously through the game when randomly assigned events occur. <img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/SoHo/Nook/2990/cb-1rule.gif" border="0"> 1.8 Score may be kept or disregarded. In the event that score is kept, it shall have no bearing on the game nor shall it have any logical consistency to it. (Legal scores include 'Q to 12', 'BW-109 to YU-34, and 'Nosebleed to Pelvic Fracture'.) (Figure 1.9) <b>1.9 Any rule above that is carried out during the course of the game may never be used again in the event that it causes the same result as a previous game. <i>Calvinball games may never be played the same way twice (Figure 1.9)</i></b> </p>

[KBern]

Fayline@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>You've obviously never heard of Calvinball: </p></blockquote><p> ROFL</p><p>One of my favorite comics...was sad when he stopped writing it.</p>

[TheSpin]

<p>I'm not going to say I completely disagree with the OP, but I think it's a little out of perspective.</p><p>The level cap has been at 70 for a very long time.  I don't see anyone complaining that all their raid gear that they've worked a year to get is going to be quickly replaced by treasured gear from kunark when the level cap is raised to 80.  Besides, it's better they make these changes before the expansion comes so that you can then work again to get that perfect spell, or item you want.....so they can make it useless yet again a few months down the road.</p>

[Dulissa]

am i the only one who reads "game experience may change during online play." for what it is? right there on the back of the box...wow

[Josgar]

Maybe SOE should stop all patches!

[Lilflier]

<p>I'll try to do better this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exception ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   You don't have to worry about your blue shirt becoming a red shirt.  If you choose a blue shirt, the only way it will change is if you choose something else. They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p>

[Kaharthemad]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll try to be clearer this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exeption ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p></blockquote><p>A) Sports games dont last for 2 to 3 years.  Therefore stop using it as an examle. Your comparing apples to bratwurst. </p><p>B) Sims is not a MMO. Therefore again that whole paragraph is moot.  See reference A</p><p>Now to the Paragrah that has any merit.  MMO's are constantly evolving. That is their nature. If you dont believe  grab a copy of World of Childcraft and play it. They have changed spells damage outputs, AA lines (or whatever they call it) you name it.  They make changes about the same frequency as most people change underwear, I have seen 2 patches go in on the same day.</p><p>The changes they are changing are minor and reletively  decent. If there was no change we would have level 70's running around in instance zones trying to find a soul shard, groups would be non exsistent because "Why would I  goup with anyone that might incur me xp debt" and we would not have anything to do at level 70 due to no groups and no aa lines.  Yes some of the changes are having an adverse effect on some classes, however for the most part Im happy with the changes.  Again minor in the grand scheme of things.  </p><p>If you want to hear what happens when major changes are implemented go talk to someone that played SWG before and after the NGE. Be prepared to sit around and listen for 3 hours. It is ugly.</p><p>I think what your complaining about is most likely your character got hit with a nerf bat  this patch. Odd that most people that complain about one patch dont complain when there is a little love bestowed on their class. </p>

[Dasein]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll try to do better this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exception ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   You don't have to worry about your blue shirt becoming a red shirt.  If you choose a blue shirt, the only way it will change is if you choose something else. They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p></blockquote>MMOs are not like The Sims, and while it would be ideal to get everything right in a beta, that just isn't going to happen, especially as people demand that MMOs push the boundry of what is possible in gaming. There will be balance issues and conceptual changes that ar enecessary to make the game enjoyable. You also need to relaize that what the players want will change over time, so ideas that might have looked good at release are no longer viable 2 years and many expansions later. You say the devs should just focus on adding new content, but new content does't enter in a vacuum - if you add a new spell, you need to keep in mind how it will interact with all the existing spells, classes, items and encounters in the game. Will this new spell render older content completely trivial? If so, you need to change the older content - but you don't want the devs to do that. Really, what you advocate is a recipie for mudflation and obsolesence of the vast majority of the game's content, where only the content in the current expansion is viable and the rest is underpowered or trivialized by the later additions. What needs to be done is for all content to be reevaluated periodically to keep it in line with the current objectives of the game. This might mean nerfing things, it might mean enhancing old loot tables. In EQ2, we've seen both, with certain zones getting major revamps to their loot tables, such that even 2.5 years in, original zones like Fallen Gate and Runneyeye are viable and popular spots for adventuring.

[Lord Montague]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games. </blockquote><p>I don't really think this logic applies to an MMO at all.  Here's why I say that.  There are no "seasons," there is no end of one game and the beginning of another.  The game is continuous.  So essentially by your logic an MMO may never be allowed to change, evolve, or grow...ever.  It would have to remain static and that in essence would kill what an MMO is.  Sadly, I really think you're comparing apples and oranges here and that just don't work.</p><p>Fact is things change in MMO's, and regarless of when that change happens or whether it is good or bad, because it is a continuous process it will be arbitrary when it is done.  The only thing you can count on remaining constant is what you are doing that day - you never know what might change the next day.  If that's inconvenient to you, that's unfortunate but you can either adapt or not.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p></blockquote><p>The rules for EQ2 dont' change in the middle of the game either.  The game comes down, we have updates, and bam.. the rules change.  Maybe you'll come back and say that the rules don't change during a SEASON for a sport, right?</p><p>The rules for a sport do ACTUALLY change during the season.  George Brett says hello.</p>

[Frenzy]

Fayline@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>You've obviously never heard of Calvinball:</p><p> <b>The <i>Unofficially</i> Official Rules of Calvinball</b></p><p>1.1. All players must wear a Calvinball mask (See Calvinball Equipment - 2.1). No one questions the masks (Figure 2.1). <i><b>*IMPORTANT -- <b>The following rules are subject to be changed, amended, or deleted by any player(s) involved. </b></b></i><img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I knew a kinda-like-this(sorry my "invented" too english <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) reply would appear in a few replies to the post creator <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Well whatever i think that's the nature of writing in internet(too much onformation to be contrasted O.O).</p><p>Whatever(again :O) the game is awesome LOL(the one from the comic... hey! not talking about EQ2 that's true the best :O).</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p></blockquote><p>The analogy is bad. Please find another one.</p><p>MMOs change -- even their basic mechanics change -- because their developers are constantly trying to make the game "better". As a result, the game experience will always be changing. That's the way MMOs have always been, that's the way they're always going to be.</p><p>Get used to it. </p>

[Asif]

<p>Aye i have to agree Livejazz here games need to be changing and adpeting all the time or they will get very boring and stagnet which is no good for anyone.</p><p>I have learnt with this game to just take the good with the bad and learn to adept to the changes no mater what i think. BUT WE DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE WITH IT!!!!</p><p>It is their game we only rent it and when we get tired of it and feed up we just move on to a new one!!!</p>

[Zyphius]

Macabrat@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><p>I think what your complaining about is most likely your character got hit with a nerf bat  this patch. Odd that most people that complain about one patch <b>dont complain when there is a little love bestowed on their class.</b> </p></blockquote>I couldn't relate since the bolded has never happened for the Wizard class...

[cronar]

<p>Actually it feels like they really didnt mess with core game rules until after the pvp servers came into reality. </p><p>Eq2 was much better off without the constant bother of the pvp servers. It forces the devs to modify content on the pve servers.</p><p>Shame on sony for going back on their word that there would never be pvp in eq2.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

Macabrat@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><p>B) Sims is not a MMO. Therefore again that whole paragraph is moot.  See reference A</p></blockquote><p>Yes it is. It has been around in MMO production version for 4 1/2 years now. <a href="http://" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://</a><a href="http://www.thesimsonline.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.thesimsonline.com</a> (TSO)</p><p>The OP's comment on the way TSO handles modifications are true. I have played that game since beta and have the oldest sims available in the game which went live in November 2002. The patches and updates fix bugs, introduce new content and add new features. They do not take away content items which were previously introduced.</p><p> Just for reference....</p>

[Weizen Heimer]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll try to do better this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exception ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   You don't have to worry about your blue shirt becoming a red shirt.  If you choose a blue shirt, the only way it will change is if you choose something else. They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p></blockquote>Apparently you are not aware that we are, in fact, beta testing EQ2 PVP.

[Valdaglerion]

<p>I think fundamentally several people are missing the point on the rules changing analogy. Personally, I agree that these games evolve as I said in my earlier post; however, the nerf bats to items and character abilities are not done as a "from this point on here are the rules". </p><p>When sould shards and access quest got changed they modified game play GOING FORWARD, there was nothing done retroactively. They were beneficial changes which changes current and future gameplay.</p><p>What is not necessary is to nerf items because the devs feel that players who earned or found those items are all of the sudden overpowered. What might be necessary is to reduce the frequency of those drops so not as many people have them going forward but kudos to the people who have them currently. Dont change quested items rewards downwards while people are actively pursuing the questline. Make the quest line available to be started and give those currently on the quest a notice that the quest rewards will change in x days/weeks/months so if you want the current reward, get it done in that time frame. Many quested items and raided items take considerable time to achieve. modifying them mid-stream only serves to frustrate people. Take for instance the Poets Palace Access line. How many people were almost done with that and to the part of killing the Caretaker when they decided to change her drops from a Master I to an Adept I?? I, for one, was not too happy with that nerf one bit. I had spent the same amount of time as other people had to do it but got rewarded less on a whim whilst in the middle of the quest line.</p><p>As stated, the next expansion will make most items in T7 obsolete anyway and give us something new to work towards so why nerf those items now and frustrate and upset your user base?? Am I upset they are giving us a new tier making my current gear not as useful in the next tier, NO. They arent changing my current gear and its usefulness in  the current tier. They are ADDING new content for which I will need to earn new gear and spells to play in successfully. </p><p> Here's a correct sports analogy for you. The method of nerfing being employed by SOE is akin to taking your championship trophy away from you you earned last season because they want to change the trophy from gold to bronze.</p><p>Let me leave you with this parting thought -</p><p>Would you be ok with it if SOE decided to come in and just nerf all current T7 gear to T6 stats and add new gear with the current T7 stats? Because that, is essentially what is happening currently with several things. I expect what we will see in RoK is items which were considered "overpowered" and recently nerfed to be re-introduced with the same to marginally better stats for T8.</p><p>Just my 2cp. Not like SOE listens anyway so <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[liveja]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is not necessary is to nerf items because the devs feel that players who earned or found those items are all of the sudden overpowered. </p></blockquote><p>What is "necessary", is what the Developers feel is necessary.</p><p>My apologies for relying on circular logic, which I normally loathe, but in this particular case there is nothing else to say. The Devs make, break, & change the rules, & we players deal with those changes & adapt, or we don't. I have never seen a MMO that didn't go through changes like this regularly, which is why my initial post said, "Welcome to MMO Land, enjoy your stay.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>cronar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Shame on sony for going back on their word that there would never be pvp in eq2.</p></blockquote> Got proof?  If not, shame on you..

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is not necessary is to nerf items because the devs feel that players who earned or found those items are all of the sudden overpowered. </p></blockquote><p>What is "necessary", is what the Developers feel is necessary.</p><p>My apologies for relying on circular logic, which I normally loathe, but in this particular case there is nothing else to say. The Devs make, break, & change the rules, & we players deal with those changes & adapt, or we don't. I have never seen a MMO that didn't go through changes like this regularly, which is why my initial post said, "Welcome to MMO Land, enjoy your stay.</p></blockquote><p>Well, I have been in the traditional MMO land for over 5 years now. If you want to go back to the days of playing games on the internet when it existed as BBS and long before Windows and WWW were around, then I have been in that MMO world for 24 years. I have seen many implementations of games played online for more than one user NOT require changes like this.</p><p>I can see there is no point in arguing these points though, you are correct. SOE and every other gaming company will do what they want, when they want and like it or not, the players can either adapt or go elsewhere with their subscription dollars. I guess that is truly the bottom line. I think with that revelation I am going to take a much needed break from the forums for a while. They dont seem to produce much from SOE anyway as they are going to do what they want to do, they dont need my feedback.</p><p>Toodles folks - good luck~ </p>

[Themaginator]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll try to do better this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exception ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   You don't have to worry about your blue shirt becoming a red shirt.  If you choose a blue shirt, the only way it will change is if you choose something else. They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p></blockquote>sometimes things need to be changed to evolve with the player community or make way for something new etc etc, things change EVERYTHING IN THE GAME NEW OR OLD IS SUSCEPTIBLE TO CHANGE. Welcome to MMOs, this isn't the Sims nor is this sports, its an MMO.  And anyway these changes aren't that bad they are a small change, they didn't change rules at all. All they did was change and tweak some AAs a lil.

[TheBu]

<p>I agree sometimes change will be nessary.</p><p>But i do feel The game has had a few too  many major changes that could have been avoided.</p><p>Every 10 levels the game will change and that is when it would be a good time to make major changes in the new content and spells. </p>

[TheSpin]

<cite>TheBuzZ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree sometimes change will be nessary.</p><p>But i do feel The game has had a few too  many major changes that could have been avoided.</p><p>Every 10 levels the game will change and that is when it would be a good time to make major changes in the new content and spells. </p></blockquote><p> I think you hit the nail on the head here.  I assume you're talkin about expansions and new level caps when you mention "every 10 levels".  This is exactly what is happening; the game is changing because they are adding more levels.  I look at LU 36 merely a preperational patch for RoK.  They can't add epic weapons for specific classes unless people can use any type of spec they want to use while weilding their epic weapon.</p><p>I do understand that the sorcerers are the most upset about the kos aa tweaks and I do sympathize, but I believe it's all part of the process in preperation for the expansion and you might find yourself in a very different situation when it arrives.  I would encourage you to try to have a little faith in soe's plans for the future, even if this particular live update is a bit of a let down.  Over time I think everyone can agree that eq2 has only gotten better...the growing population on my server certainly gives me that impression.</p>

[Dasein]

"What is not necessary is to nerf items because the devs feel that players who earned or found those items are all of the sudden overpowered." When items are nerfed it is often because an underlying mechanic which the item boosts is being changed, like power regen or haste. Rarel are items nerfed because the item alone is too powerful. However, the devs also want to move away from must-have items, so if one item is far and away the best item for a particular slot, expect it to be changed.

[Spider]

Macabrat@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll try to be clearer this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exeption ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p></blockquote><p>A) Sports games dont last for 2 to 3 years.  Therefore stop using it as an examle. Your comparing apples to bratwurst. </p><p>B) Sims is not a MMO. Therefore again that whole paragraph is moot.  See reference A</p><p>Now to the Paragrah that has any merit.  MMO's are constantly evolving. That is their nature. If you dont believe  grab a copy of World of Childcraft and play it. They have changed spells damage outputs, AA lines (or whatever they call it) you name it.  They make changes about the same frequency as most people change underwear, I have seen 2 patches go in on the same day.</p><p>The changes they are changing are minor and reletively  decent. If there was no change we would have level 70's running around in instance zones trying to find a soul shard, groups would be non exsistent because "Why would I  goup with anyone that might incur me xp debt" and we would not have anything to do at level 70 due to no groups and no aa lines.  Yes some of the changes are having an adverse effect on some classes, however for the most part Im happy with the changes.  Again minor in the grand scheme of things.  </p><p><b>If you want to hear what happens when major changes are implemented go talk to someone that played SWG before and after the NGE. Be prepared to sit around and listen for 3 hours. It is ugly.</b></p><p>I think what your complaining about is most likely your character got hit with a nerf bat  this patch. Odd that most people that complain about one patch dont complain when there is a little love bestowed on their class. </p></blockquote>lets please not go there  after 3 yeasr + i die a little more inside every time that gmae is mentioned /cry

[PaganSaint]

<b>Here's an idea. Let this stupid thread die. The OP is an idiot. Enough said. End of Discussion. </b>

[Kaharthemad]

<cite>Zyphius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Macabrat@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><p>I think what your complaining about is most likely your character got hit with a nerf bat  this patch. Odd that most people that complain about one patch <b>dont complain when there is a little love bestowed on their class.</b> </p></blockquote>I couldn't relate since the bolded has never happened for the Wizard class...</blockquote> Understand fully. Trust me you seen the mutt they gave us for a pet? keeping the dog alive during a major fight is  like trying to keep granny on life support after they removed her brain.

[Kaharthemad]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Macabrat@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><p>B) Sims is not a MMO. Therefore again that whole paragraph is moot.  See reference A</p></blockquote><p>Yes it is. It has been around in MMO production version for 4 1/2 years now. <a href="http://" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://</a><a href="http://www.thesimsonline.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.thesimsonline.com/</a> (TSO)</p><p>The OP's comment on the way TSO handles modifications are true. I have played that game since beta and have the oldest sims available in the game which went live in November 2002. The patches and updates fix bugs, introduce new content and add new features. They do not take away content items which were previously introduced.</p><p> Just for reference....</p></blockquote><p>ok I stand corrected.  Ill rephrase: </p><p>SIMS is a bad analogy for an MMO. Besides being about as much fun as a proctological exam, there are not many changes to make to a game where you click people around in RL situations. I dont consider any game an MMO if it is basically watching a few people do what you can do IRL. Good lord, talk about ant farming. but back on topic. A better comparison  Would be any of the major MMO's on the market pay for play games. WOW, EQ2, Vanguard etc.  </p>

[Kaharthemad]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Macabrat@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll try to be clearer this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exeption ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p></blockquote><p>A) Sports games dont last for 2 to 3 years.  Therefore stop using it as an examle. Your comparing apples to bratwurst. </p><p>B) Sims is not a MMO. Therefore again that whole paragraph is moot.  See reference A</p><p>Now to the Paragrah that has any merit.  MMO's are constantly evolving. That is their nature. If you dont believe  grab a copy of World of Childcraft and play it. They have changed spells damage outputs, AA lines (or whatever they call it) you name it.  They make changes about the same frequency as most people change underwear, I have seen 2 patches go in on the same day.</p><p>The changes they are changing are minor and reletively  decent. If there was no change we would have level 70's running around in instance zones trying to find a soul shard, groups would be non exsistent because "Why would I  goup with anyone that might incur me xp debt" and we would not have anything to do at level 70 due to no groups and no aa lines.  Yes some of the changes are having an adverse effect on some classes, however for the most part Im happy with the changes.  Again minor in the grand scheme of things.  </p><p><b>If you want to hear what happens when major changes are implemented go talk to someone that played SWG before and after the NGE. Be prepared to sit around and listen for 3 hours. It is ugly.</b></p><p>I think what your complaining about is most likely your character got hit with a nerf bat  this patch. Odd that most people that complain about one patch dont complain when there is a little love bestowed on their class. </p></blockquote>lets please not go there  after 3 yeasr + i die a little more inside every time that gmae is mentioned /cry </blockquote><p>There are still people calling for the heads of some developers. I cried too. they finally have said "We will not make broad sweeping changes like we did in SWG." In other words. "boy...we were stupid. If only there was some input from others before we patched....People paying us large amounts of money each year to play it. If had people like that...we could ask them. HMMMMMM where could we find them."</p>

[Cakassis]

<p><b>"'dont complain when there is a little love bestowed on their class.'</b> </p><p>I couldn't relate since the bolded has never happened for the Wizard class... "</p><p>Yes.  "Little" love has never been bestowed to the Wizard class.  </p><p>Big heaping mounds of love have been bestowed to the Wizard class.  The sort of love you see certain Japanese fetish videos, has been bestowed upon the wizard class.</p><p>Ask a Monk, Paladin, or Coercer what it feels like to be a class that gets no love from the devs.  Wizards complaining about having their DPS lowered is like hearing Brad Pitt complain about how tough it is to be so good looking.</p>

[Squigglle]

lol maybe he never played swg? im origanally from swg and man can i say what you guys rant at is nothing. its nothing compared to swgs stuff.

[Lilflier]

<p>My point is...  that games are games.    Sports, computers, cards, board games...   whatever..       and the essence of fair games, is that the rules are constant throughout competition.</p><p> Maybe a comparison to life will work.   You purchase something..    a hairdryer.   The hairdryer is not going to change unless you change it.  If you break it or wear it out, it will change, but if you take care of it, it's yours and the company that sold it to you isn't going to tell you that they made it dry hair too fast, so they're going to take it back and now it will only blow warm air instead of hot air.   A year after you buy it, yes, there will be a newer better version of your hair dryer, but your old one won't be any less effective at drying hair than it was before.   The new ones are just better.</p><p>I guess it boils down to this.   Developers should evolve the world around the characters, but leave it up to the characters to change.  Changing the way a spell works, or the ingrediants required in recipes, isn't changing the world, that's changing the character, and it's my player, i should be the one to say how and when and why it changes.  New recipes, new spells, thats changing the world.  I learned how to make things a certain way, i should not have to change unless i want to.  My way may be obsolete, but i should have the choice to be obsolete if i choose.  You put the rules out there, let me build my player and stop changing what i built just because it didn't turn out the way you thought it should turn out.  If you want me to change my character, build a world that my kind of character would have a hard time in, and i'll decide if i want to change or not.</p><p> As for comparing this game to other MMO's like WoW or Vanguard, or Guild Wars,   I've never tried any of them for longer than 5 minutes, but if this is standard fair for all of these types of games, I will not get myself addicted to anything else.   Maybe this change is good.   Maybe i'll kick my habit.</p>

[steelblueangel]

<p>Instead it should read "Game play may drastically change during game play" </p><p>lol </p>

[steelblueangel]

<p>Squigglle, SWG is a dead game that resulted from nerfs .... hummm .... wait.... that sounds familiar sorta like all the many many drastic nerfs in eq2. </p><p>So what is your point Squigglle? I was unclear on the comparrison between SWG that is a dead and forgotten game and Eq2 that is traveling on the same path. </p>

[selch]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Instead it should read "Game play may drastically change during game play" </p><p>lol </p></blockquote> I second that.

[Couching]

It's ok to change the rules in the middle of the game. However, this changes should be <b>good. </b>Were these changes good? The reality can tell us. A lot of servers are still empty after server merge and less and less posts in eq2 forums. Why? Because we kept getting dumb changes rather than good changes. Devs, you should understand that your changes have to consider class balance rather than making overpowered classes. The dumb changes caused several overpowered classes and totally screwed players on other classes. Do your job and fix it.

[TheSpin]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>It's ok to change the rules in the middle of the game. However, this changes should be <b>good. </b>Were these changes good? The reality can tell us. A lot of servers are still empty after server merge and less and less posts in eq2 forums. Why? Because we kept getting dumb changes rather than good changes. Devs, you should understand that your changes have to consider class balance rather than making overpowered classes. The dumb changes caused several overpowered classes and totally screwed players on other classes. Do your job and fix it. </blockquote><p>All I can really base anything off of is my personal experience, but I meet new players frequently and I honestly don't remember the last person I met who were sick of the game and quit.  (of course they usually don't announce it so I might not notice)  but the population of the servers isn't bad at all.  The merger was just from an empty pvp european server to US based servers, and some people took advantage of the time to make some other moves as well, but it's not like anyone should have really expected a huge change in population.</p><p>Forums are also a bad way to judge population because the vast majority of players might only post here 10 times in their life, and you could easily miss those 10 compared to the thousands some people write.</p><p>There are a couple small nerfs to kos lines but who knows what's in store for these classes when kunark hits?  Overall they've made vast improvements over time.  Of course there are always people upset over any type of change, in the early days I knew many people who left for rather silly reasons imo (the attunement on all armor for example, heck I even knew a whole guild that left upon the announcement of KoS's release).  Overall the game has improved and the population has improved along with it. </p>

[Couching]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>It's ok to change the rules in the middle of the game. However, this changes should be <b>good. </b>Were these changes good? The reality can tell us. A lot of servers are still empty after server merge and less and less posts in eq2 forums. Why? Because we kept getting dumb changes rather than good changes. Devs, you should understand that your changes have to consider class balance rather than making overpowered classes. The dumb changes caused several overpowered classes and totally screwed players on other classes. Do your job and fix it. </blockquote><p>All I can really base anything off of is my personal experience, but I meet new players frequently and I honestly don't remember the last person I met who were sick of the game and quit.  (of course they usually don't announce it so I might not notice)  but the population of the servers isn't bad at all.  The merger was just from an empty pvp european server to US based servers, and some people took advantage of the time to make some other moves as well, but it's not like anyone should have really expected a huge change in population.</p><p>Forums are also a bad way to judge population because the vast majority of players might only post here 10 times in their life, and you could easily miss those 10 compared to the thousands some people write.</p><p>There are a couple small nerfs to kos lines but who knows what's in store for these classes when kunark hits?  Overall they've made vast improvements over time.  Of course there are always people upset over any type of change, in the early days I knew many people who left for rather silly reasons imo (the attunement on all armor for example, heck I even knew a whole guild that left upon the announcement of KoS's release).  Overall the game has improved and the population has improved along with it. </p></blockquote> It's meaningless to argue less and less or more and more players in eq2. If  you were the player from game launch, you won't say that we have good populations. No, PvE servers were already merged in about 2 years ago. Also, there are none stop threads asking for another server merge. EQ2 was a Massive multilplayer online game. Now, it is just an online game. I hope it won't be a game in the near future. If population is good, there is no reason to merge servers. Also, forums can  reflect how many people playing this game. Even every player would post 1 time in their game life, more posts = more population and less post = less population.

[Rarlin]

<cite>Lilflier wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll try to do better this time.</p><p>The rules for sports don't change in the middle of games.</p><p>They change the rules in between seasons at a point where all teams or individuals will start at the same point. While you're in the midst of competition with other persons or teams you don't have to worry about the rules changing ( Calvinball being the exception ), only how to best play your sport.</p><p>A game like the Sims.  When patches and updates come out for it, it fixes bugs and adds content, like new furniture or new places to go, but it does not take away what you have already been building.   You don't have to worry about your blue shirt becoming a red shirt.  If you choose a blue shirt, the only way it will change is if you choose something else. They don't change the way the game works.  </p><p>There is no reason an MMO can't do the same thing.  Changing how things work and what things do is for beta testing.   Once it is released live it should stay the same.  Add content, add zones, add levels, add better gear, add better spells, add new recipes...   add whatever you want, but don't take away what has already been put in place.  </p></blockquote><p>Is this from LU13?</p><p>Seriously though, exactly what is your complaint?  Do you not like the weapon requirements going away?  The addition of the preview screen before buying equipment?  I'm not trying to be a total jerk here but what exactly is the problem? </p>

[TheSpin]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>It's ok to change the rules in the middle of the game. However, this changes should be <b>good. </b>Were these changes good? The reality can tell us. A lot of servers are still empty after server merge and less and less posts in eq2 forums. Why? Because we kept getting dumb changes rather than good changes. Devs, you should understand that your changes have to consider class balance rather than making overpowered classes. The dumb changes caused several overpowered classes and totally screwed players on other classes. Do your job and fix it. </blockquote><p>All I can really base anything off of is my personal experience, but I meet new players frequently and I honestly don't remember the last person I met who were sick of the game and quit.  (of course they usually don't announce it so I might not notice)  but the population of the servers isn't bad at all.  The merger was just from an empty pvp european server to US based servers, and some people took advantage of the time to make some other moves as well, but it's not like anyone should have really expected a huge change in population.</p><p>Forums are also a bad way to judge population because the vast majority of players might only post here 10 times in their life, and you could easily miss those 10 compared to the thousands some people write.</p><p>There are a couple small nerfs to kos lines but who knows what's in store for these classes when kunark hits?  Overall they've made vast improvements over time.  Of course there are always people upset over any type of change, in the early days I knew many people who left for rather silly reasons imo (the attunement on all armor for example, heck I even knew a whole guild that left upon the announcement of KoS's release).  Overall the game has improved and the population has improved along with it. </p></blockquote>It's meaningless to argue less and less or more and more players in eq2. If  you were the player from game launch, you won't say that we have good populations. No, PvE servers were already merged in about 2 years ago. Also, there are none stop threads asking for another server merge. EQ2 was a Massive multilplayer online game. Now, it is just an online game. I hope it won't be a game in the near future. If population is good, there is no reason to merge servers. Also, forums can  reflect how many people playing this game. Even every player would post 1 time in their game life, more posts = more population and less post = less population. </blockquote><p>I have been here since launch and I do remember the massive numbers of players we had back then, but it dwindled quickly.  It was practically dead by the time DoF was released and population didn't get any better (worse maybe) until EoF was released.  Since EoF everything has gone right with EQ2, there are more new players and many players have returned from other mmorpgs and enjoyed what they've seen.</p><p>If you can daresay "I hope it won't be a game in the near future."  then what are you doing here at all?  I haven't seen a single call for a server merge since the original day my own server, Toxxulia, was removed.  If you're talking pvp then it's a completely different ballgame and I don't really care about the population there.  With EoF's release the EQ2 I hoped for was actually realized and it's easily the best mmorpg out there atm (which it should be since It's the only one I'm paying for). </p>

[Princess Ariel]

<p>I agree with your point, it does get frustrating the constant changes in classes to so call make all class more level with other classes.  But what cracks me up they go and add a race that is completely unblanced with other races.  As well they added that race with better individual race traits (+) but they didn't do it with the other races.  I as well agree with everyone elses point that change is part of the game which makes the game interesting and keeps us all coming back for more.  But instead of fixing things that aren't broke they need to fix the stuff that is broke.  Example the black space in Nektulous Forest.  It has been there since the game started and it is still there 3 years later, the fall through the game area in Olesik of Lost Souls as well is still there.  They still haven't given our characters the ability to actually sit (why do we have chairs if we can't actually sit in it) or the ability to lay down in beds (why do we have beds if we can't actually lay down).  I would personally love to see them give us more of the ability to interact with our house items and more with other players (example useing the emote /hug, we actually hug them).  Hey doesn't anyone else out there think that flying carpets should at least have the ability to glide?</p>

[TheSpin]

Princess Ariel wrote: <blockquote><p>I agree with your point, it does get frustrating the constant changes in classes to so call make all class more level with other classes.  But what cracks me up they go and add a race that is completely unblanced with other races.  As well they added that race with better individual race traits (+) but they didn't do it with the other races.  I as well agree with everyone elses point that change is part of the game which makes the game interesting and keeps us all coming back for more.  But instead of fixing things that aren't broke they need to fix the stuff that is broke.  Example the black space in Nektulous Forest.  It has been there since the game started and it is still there 3 years later, the fall through the game area in Olesik of Lost Souls as well is still there.  They still haven't given our characters the ability to actually sit (why do we have chairs if we can't actually sit in it) or the ability to lay down in beds (why do we have beds if we can't actually lay down).  I would personally love to see them give us more of the ability to interact with our house items and more with other players (example useing the emote /hug, we actually hug them).  Hey doesn't anyone else out there think that flying carpets should at least have the ability to glide?</p></blockquote><p> I agree with many things you have to say, but also need to clarify a few things.</p><p>I agree very much with the racial traits, they are in need of a revamp for the older races...that's the one biggest thing I would like to see change if I was able to choose what to do with the next LU.</p><p>As for black space, I've never fallen through the world in Nek or the Obelisk, though there is a little part that the screen is dark for a second just as I come up on nmar's acent, but it's never bothred me that much.  I have fallen through the world a few times in that instance at the bottom of FG but that's it.</p><p>Laying down should be possible I think, but I can understand why characters can't actually sit in chairs.  There are what...16 races with mail and female models, plus a height adjsutment for each race. Not only that but all chairs are a slightly different height.  That's an awful lot of work (and possibly resources on your computer) to accomplish sitting down.  Maybe in the future with the skeletal revamp it will be possible....I don't really know much about the skeletal revamp but I read on the 'look and feel' board that one is coming...someday.  Emotes that actually interact are also impossibly hard to accomplish with the current variety of models for the races.  I'm sure it would be possible, but in a mmorpg where the main focus is on adventuring, it's not really worth the resources it would require to accomplish (both on my home pc and the resources at soe).</p><p>I definately agree that flying carpets should be able to glide, just like the fae, it would balance things out at higher levels so everyone could glide, plus it just makes sense.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have been here since launch and I do remember the massive numbers of players we had back then, but it dwindled quickly.  It was practically dead by the time DoF was released and population didn't get any better (worse maybe) until EoF was released.  Since EoF everything has gone right with EQ2, there are more new players and many players have returned from other mmorpgs and enjoyed what they've seen.</p><p>If you can daresay "I hope it won't be a game in the near future."  then what are you doing here at all?  I haven't seen a single call for a server merge since the original day my own server, Toxxulia, was removed.  If you're talking pvp then it's a completely different ballgame and I don't really care about the population there.  With EoF's release the EQ2 I hoped for was actually realized and it's easily the best mmorpg out there atm (which it should be since It's the only one I'm paying for). </p></blockquote>What I am doing here at all? I am posting and hoping Devs can go in right direction rather than dumb. Is it clear? Moreover, there are a lot of threads of merging in game play forum. You haven't seen a single call for a server merge is your business. It didn't mean it didn't exist.

[Freliant]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>...it's easily the best mmorpg out there atm.</blockquote><p>/agree</p><p>I played FFXI, AC2, CoH, WoW, LoTRO, EQ, EQOA and quite a few others I am not that proud to admit to playing, and I must say, that EQ2 feels like the best overall among them. No tedious camping, no grinding, has a storyline, no immaturity epidemics and drama, goal oriented quests, a healthy playerbase (low gamer turnover) and a challenge for those who want to look for the challenge, and an easy road for those that want the easy route... there is solo content, group content and raid content... the crafting has been dumbed down a bit.. but at least its there too. The only thing that EQ2 is lacking, is a large enough content of "just for fun" stuff. The instrument thing they did in test was a tease.. but a tease in the right direction. They should dedicate some time to doing lore oriented fun stuff, and not just questing and things along that line. Heck, in FFXI they introduced sitting down... I don't think anything in that game got as much use as the sit-down animation lol. Give us some more fun fluff and the game will be beyond perfet IMO. (and I am not talking about bug free... if any MMO would be developed completely bug free, I can see alot of Devs without jobs ^_^ ) </p>

[Princess Ariel]

Another thing I just thought of is they need to give back players that don't have station access the ability to look at alts, our own stat's, etc.  It is rather stupid that they took that away from us and made it a station access which they raised the price on to pay for Vanguard which I heard is flopping.  After playing for 3 years and giving them a ton of money it is a horrible customer service slap across the face.  And what about all the 20 plat seller spams I get a day?  Why not fix that problem. 

[Spider]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Squigglle, SWG is a dead game that resulted from nerfs .... hummm .... wait.... that sounds familiar sorta like all the many many drastic nerfs in eq2. </p><p>So what is your point Squigglle? I was unclear on the comparrison between SWG that is a dead and forgotten game and Eq2 that is traveling on the same path. </p></blockquote><p> few corrections  </p><p>one swg isnt dead its accualy growing and doing well  ...jsut with a COMPLETELY differnt playerbase  so eh w/e </p><p>second it was from nerfs that the playbase left if was because they cahnged everything BUT the look of the game</p><p>it wnet from a one format  ( skill tree progresion system  ) to (static classes )  and it all changed combat style from stanard mmo to mmo FPS hybrid style  </p><p>the changes made in swg were not jsut tweaks and adjustments to classes they completely removed  32+ professions taht you could mix and match at will and replaced it with 9 iconic professions you were stuck with  and when it hit it was rushed out and literaly buggy to the point of unplayability for most people and stayed that way for a good 6 months </p><p>compare it to this suddenly eq2 decides to remove all the classes in the gmae and give us 4 new " iconic profesions Tank , Healer , DPS , and utility those are the classes u can pick and oh yeah no AA system to make anyone differnt  oh and  all the classes can pretty much do everythign the other classes can do  and all do around the same damage and have around the same armor quality and around the same healing  etc.   </p><p>so no the changes in this game are NOTHING by comparison so quit whining and just play the dang game </p>

[Zyphius]

<cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>"'dont complain when there is a little love bestowed on their class.'</b> </p><p>I couldn't relate since the bolded has never happened for the Wizard class... "</p><p>Yes.  "Little" love has never been bestowed to the Wizard class.  </p><p>Big heaping mounds of love have been bestowed to the Wizard class.  The sort of love you see certain Japanese fetish videos, has been bestowed upon the wizard class.</p><p>Ask a Monk, Paladin, or Coercer what it feels like to be a class that gets no love from the devs.  Wizards complaining about having their DPS lowered is like hearing Brad Pitt complain about how tough it is to be so good looking.</p></blockquote><p> This isn't a thread about the shape of classes, but I'll respond since you saw fit...</p><p>I've seen monks stand toe to toe with things I could solo using the root and nuke technique. Not to mention they ALSO have FD. My mother's husband has played a Pally since launch, and I the wizard. He does a VERY good job doing what he is to do.. which is tank. Holds aggro extremely well (especially with amends on me), and takes hits very well. I don't see the issue? You HAVE to be kidding?!?!? I have an Illusionist alt that I've worked up to 42, and I'm pretty sure they aren't any better off than Coercers, yet I think he is very powerful. He can definately take on more encounters at a time than my wizard can, easily.</p>

[elfkingsteve]

change is good, no world stays stagnant even in real life.  if no changes were made the game would become humdrum and die.  i am not talking about major changes but scenery changes, population changes, minor ways in how things are done to keep the game fresh.

[feldon30]

SOE's solution for everything is not to provide better weapons, armor, or more content, but to nerf existing items that people spent hours, days, weeks on. Setting everyone back rather than raising the ceiling.

[feldon30]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have never seen a MMO that didn't go through changes like this regularly, which is why my initial post said, "Welcome to MMO Land, enjoy your stay.</p></blockquote> What your post is really saying is, "There's no reason for an EQ2 forum. Let the devs do whatever they want." <cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can see there is no point in arguing these points though, you are correct. SOE and every other gaming company will do what they want, when they want and like it or not, the players can either adapt or go elsewhere with their subscription dollars. I guess that is truly the bottom line. I think with that revelation I am going to take a much needed break from the forums for a while. They dont seem to produce much from SOE anyway as they are going to do what they want to do, they dont need my feedback.</blockquote> SOE sure doesn't seem to think they need to justify or explain anything. Their approach in all cases is "better to let them assume the worst than to confirm it." I've always believed that if someone has a good reason for doing something and they can explain it persuasively, they have nothing to fear. So either SOE doesn't have a good reason, or they can't explain it persuasively. They haven't posted once in the "nerfing Rangers yet again" thread here <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=371164" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> Proc off Ranged</a>. Nerfing should be a rare thing, not the solution to everything. The first tool that the developers reach for when deciding how to fix a problem shouldn't be to redact hundreds of hours of gameplay. And as I said in that thread, SOE needs to stop making game-wide changes because of balance issues on PVP. Fork PVP as a separate game with separate rules (since it's already on a separate server) and stop ruining the game for the rest of us.