The "balancing" excuse - from a wizard's perspective.

[Mythal_EQ2]

<p>I don't really expect an official answer to this, but hey... it bugs me, so I'm posting.</p><p>I can understand that there are going to be changes, what with a new expansion coming along soon. I can even understand that because of these changes some of my spells, abilities or items are going to get tweaked -- either in a positive or negative way. What I cannot understand is the lying.</p><p>We were told that, since the KoS AA lines will be changed so that they do not require a specific weapon to be equipped, or a specific slot to be free, there are going to be changed, to "balance" that fact. So far so good. In my dictionary, balancing changes means that the overall aspect of a thing is not changed -- i.e. I get some, I lose some but overall I am where I started.</p><p>Well, I'm calling [Removed for Content] ladies and gentlemen. Because the way things are right now, there is a definite negative change -- of course you would not see people whining if there was a positive change (except perhaps people who play other classes and now want to have some goodies too).</p><p>So, 8 months after EoF comes out, a year and a half after KoS came out, it is suddenly decided that our KoS trees are unbalanced and they need to be nerfed? Or do you honestly, really, believe that allowing us to equip one more item in the secondary slot will make up for all the decreasing in efficiency of our abilities? And yeah, I am basically talking about the Wisdom line.</p><p>What bothers me the most is not that this is being changed. Change happens, we adapt. What bothers me is that, at least this time, it is being hailed as a positive thing (or, at worst, a true balancing act) whereas it clearly isn't.</p><p>Just come out and say it, [Removed for Content] it. "We hate how overpowered some of your KoS tree lines were, so we're lowering them". Really. At least, if unpopular, that would be honest.</p><p>D.</p>

[AegisCrown]

they did say they would be lowering them.  read the notes and posts by devs

[The_Cheeseman]

You're right, SOE is lying to you in a malicious attempt to mislead the entire wizard population into thinking that their class is better. They have a multitude of evil motives for this deception, and much to gain by continuing their ruse. You, however, are too smart for them! You alone have seen through the veil of secrecy, decoded the cryptic words of the SOE customer relations representatives, and revealed their plot for what it is. Seriously, though. SOE has no reason whatsoever to "lie" to you about ability adjustments. It is not a simple fact that any given change is an obvious choice, and the opinions of the vast majority of players on issues related to the overall health of the game are worth about as much as it costs to post them. SOE has an experienced live team, access to accurate usage and technical data, boatloads of player and tester feedback, and a personal and financial investment in the game's success. The average player spends about 2-6 hours a day of their free time putzing around in the game, unable to see further into its core mechanics than their own noses. Ask any game developer and they will tell you that players have no idea what they actually want in a game, and if given their way, would run it into the ground. Sorry to single you out on this topic, but I am just so amazingly tired of hearing the same complaints time and time again over trivial mechanics changes. Every time something gets changed, people complain about it, claiming that it spoils their enjoyment of the game. Evidently, everybody on EQ2 is a veteran game designer who is intimately familiar with the games fundamental design document and community data. AA abilities are NOT a "make or break" mechanic. Wizards got along just fine without them for a long while, and they will continue to do so regardless of how bad these proposed "nerfs" may seem. You'll live, wizards will be just fine, and in 3 months everybody will be so busy whining about the latest update that they'll forget this ever happened.

[Snorm]

<p>You're both missing his point.</p><p>The statement from Lockeye was: The few cases where an achievement received a reduction were made to balance out a penalizing equipment requirement that was removed as part of the update.</p><p>Concerning the WIS line, the general consenses amongst Sorcerers is that there is no item in the game to compensate for the loss of the weapon requement.  In fact, I've never seen anyone even suggest otherwise. Meaning, it's a nerf, not balancing because of the requirement change. The guard sta line double attack was also dropped by 16%, and there were no changes in weapon requirements at all. I'm sure there are more examples.</p><p>Why the discrepency between the statement and the action?</p><p>Snorm -- 70 Guard </p>

[AdamWest007]

<p>So what flavor Kool-aid do you guys drink, anyway?</p><p>This was advertised as a buffing up of the unpopular lines to make them more desirable, with minor tweaks to the other lines to account for the removal of weap restrictions.  That has clearly not happened, and was pure PR/spin/BS.  If you believe this, then I feel sorry for you.  That is what most of us are so upset about.  We can live with nerfs (obviously, we are still here after all), but not the lying.  </p><p>Don't [Removed for Content] on my shoes and tell me it is raining.</p>

[Flipmode]

<p>Did you miss the "enchanter" revamp?  You want PR spin?  They used a supposed enchanter "upgrade" to nerf everyones control spells.  Even the enchanters.  But now I can stun a epic for 2 seconds.  Big whoop.  Too bad the rain calller [Removed for Content] that up.</p><p> And now they screwing my Wizard too?  Like we dont have a hard enough time keeping up with scouts on DPS.  This change flat out sucks.  Put it back to off hand free for all I care.  I dont like your "upgrades" SOE.  We are not as dumb as you take us to be.</p>

[XeroXs84]

Well, i am reading all developer posts etc usually (which is much harder since the tracker is down..) and so i think i know what they are saying and what not. They sure said, they are balancing the AA trees, but u totally got it wrong what they want to do, and what they are doing. Atm u got 5 trees, and 90% of the players of a class use 2, and 10% maybe a mix of others... cos theres basically no choice, as theres clearly a "best line". What they now doing is, making the uber ones bit worse, make the bad ones better.. in order to make ppl use the other trees. I for my part like that change alot. And i am a Warlock with my main btw.

[Flipmode]

Fizzie@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Well, i am reading all developer posts etc usually (which is much harder since the tracker is down..) and so i think i know what they are saying and what not. They sure said, they are balancing the AA trees, but u totally got it wrong what they want to do, and what they are doing. Atm u got 5 trees, and 90% of the players of a class use 2, and 10% maybe a mix of others... cos theres basically no choice, as theres clearly a "best line". What they now doing is, making the uber ones bit worse, make the bad ones better.. in order to make ppl use the other trees. I for my part like that change alot. And i am a Warlock with my main btw. </blockquote><p> What they stated was they were goping to beef the crappy lines up and take the weapon restrictions off the other line and nerf them a little to balance it out.  Currently there is no single item in the game that makes up for brainstorm/freehand nerf in DPS.  That make their statement a lie.  Sorcs will not be doing the same DPS after this.  The will be doing less.  That is a nerf.  That is why folks are mad.  They pull this [I cannot control my vocabulary] before every expansion.  Nerf us down and give it back in the next tier.  Will any real progress be made in the expansion?  Maybe.  But not like it would be if they would just leave our characters alone.</p><p> Edited to add...I could care less about what it does for PVP.  PVP has ruined the PVE game.  They also lied that PVP would not affect PVE balance.  I think its safe to say that was a load of crap.</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Flipmode wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fizzie@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Well, i am reading all developer posts etc usually (which is much harder since the tracker is down..) and so i think i know what they are saying and what not. They sure said, they are balancing the AA trees, but u totally got it wrong what they want to do, and what they are doing. Atm u got 5 trees, and 90% of the players of a class use 2, and 10% maybe a mix of others... cos theres basically no choice, as theres clearly a "best line". What they now doing is, making the uber ones bit worse, make the bad ones better.. in order to make ppl use the other trees. I for my part like that change alot. And i am a Warlock with my main btw. </blockquote><p> What they stated was they were goping to beef the crappy lines up and take the weapon restrictions off the other line and nerf them a little to balance it out.  Currently there is no single item in the game that makes up for brainstorm/freehand nerf in DPS.  That make their statement a lie.  Sorcs will not be doing the same DPS after this.  The will be doing less.  That is a nerf.  That is why folks are mad.  They pull this [I cannot control my vocabulary] before every expansion.  Nerf us down and give it back in the next tier.  Will any real progress be made in the expansion?  Maybe.  But not like it would be if they would just leave our characters alone.</p><p> Edited to add...I could care less about what it does for PVP.  PVP has ruined the PVE game.  They also lied that PVP would not affect PVE balance.  I think its safe to say that was a load of crap.</p></blockquote><p>i love hearing that statement it always make me laugh because time and tiem again people cry oh this was changed  only because of pvp or that ws nerfed de to pvp</p><p>if something needs cahnged for pvp THEY CHANGE IT FOR ONLY PVP they do it all the time all of our spells , skills, cas, etc all ahve pvp only  versions  for balancing reasons so when they make a global change its got exactly jack and SH@@ to do with pvp  so stop trying to pass the blame to us</p><p>if soe makes a change across the board its because they felt it was needed across the board otherwise they would simply make the change on pvp servers only like there doing with  removing xp debt and capping aa skills per lvl </p>

[Darien al'Staff]

Coming from a top-end raiding wizard, I have to say...these changes SUCK for wizards.  I'll probably end up having my primary be the Staff of Light and my newly-opened spot to be the orb off of mayong (with any luck on those two drops <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )  Even with that setup, I believe we are still going to end up loosing dps.  Also, note: I know quite a few wizards that didn't use the WIS line.  None of them -raided-, but still.  To say that "2% of the wizard population didn't use the WIS line" is quite false, IMO.

[ChickenCasual]

<p>Its just the SOE act.</p><p>nerf ppl a bit and give them there loss back again in the next expansion. </p><p>Its allways been like that and will allways be.</p><p> ppl adapt and move on. also a fact.</p>

[simpwrx02]

Fizzie@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Well, i am reading all developer posts etc usually (which is much harder since the tracker is down..) and so i think i know what they are saying and what not. They sure said, they are balancing the AA trees, but u totally got it wrong what they want to do, and what they are doing. Atm u got 5 trees, and 90% of the players of a class use 2, and 10% maybe a mix of others... cos theres basically no choice, as theres clearly a "best line". What they now doing is, making the uber ones bit worse, make the bad ones better.. in order to make ppl use the other trees. I for my part like that change alot. And i am a Warlock with my main btw. </blockquote><p> Not sure where you get your data from but 90% use one line just like almost every other class there is one must have AA line for raiding, how many rogues have the str line  bet ya 90% do, just like 90% of sorcs have the wisdom line, 90% of Enchanters have the Agi line, I coulsd go on however I am sure you get my point.  Guess what sorcs the chosse between the str and agi line for how they want to play it is simple as that with this change istead of every raiding sorc being either wis/str or wis/agi  ther will be a new flavor of str/agi,   no raiding sorc will use the int or sta lines for raiding as neither up our dps at all.  If as a sorc you need the int line then your raid sucks and needs to rethink set ups.  </p><p>We already have a hard time keeping up with rangers and assassins I mean I can go all out and still be 300 dps behind either of them, yeah I knwo I must suck at my class what ever as I can bust 2200+ parses on fights with out using manaburn, and these are fights that take 2+ minutes not the chaperoens in MMiS.  With the nerf to wisdom in coming I decided to go from wis/agi to agi/str and guess what my dps went down on all fights and plumeted on fights over 6 minutes, I will likely spec back to agi/wis with the update just for the power conservation of the final wis ability.  So in reality every single sorc will try str/agi then go back to thier wis/agi or str  simply for the power restrictions, unless they only raid KoS then it really dosent matter as every thing dies in under 2 minutes.</p><p>Imho the sorc int line needs a total revamp as there is no use for it in anysetting raid/group/solo.  The sta line is great for solo and nice for groups as it ensures your spells get resisted less with the bump to casting skills ad if you get aggro you can survive it while finishing the burn on the mob.  In a raid the extra little bit of mit means you will get one shoted still if hit by the mobs auto attack it may mean I only get hit for 6k damage instread of 7k daamge to bad I only have around 5500 health... spalt goes the wizzy.</p><p>The init line needs loving keep the deaggro and give it a proc of sometype either a power proc or a damage proc or a combination of the 2.  I would love to see the one of the trees have like .5 times per minute to proc 500  damage and increase power by 150 and go up by .5 with every rank or at rank 8 give 4 times per minute to proc 500 damage and 150 power.  This would make the int line a truely viable option as it would add about 2k damage per minte or with raid debuffs around 3k and 600 power or roughly ft 60.  It woudl be less than either of the other AAs in terms of upping dps but would be a nice option that I think many would go for. As of right now str with its crits adds roughly 10k damage per minute assuming 2000dps and agi about 8-12K depending on proc gear, and wisdom adds around 18K as of right now.</p><p>To me the sta did recieve a nice bump to make it more attractive, but int is still garbage and wisdom should have only nerfed brainstorming to .75% per rank I think every one could have lived with that nerfing freehand and saying that it now stacks with brainstorming is well  meh. Even if it didnt stack before they are nerfing both of them so it will still be the exact same as only freehand was.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Flipmode wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Currently</b> there is no single item in the game that makes up for brainstorm/freehand nerf in DPS.</blockquote>Bolded word for emphasis.

[liveja]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many rogues have the str line bet ya 90% do</blockquote><p>Not necessarily true. I use STR/WIS, but a lot of Rogues go AGI/WIS instead, because of Sailwind & Pirate Stab, & also because Walk The Plank is very nice while soloing. There has been quite a bit of debate as to which combo gives the best overall DPS, & it really comes down to:</p><p>A. Whether you're a Brig or Swashy</p><p>B. Which weapon(s) you have</p><p>C. What kind of buffs, Haste especially, you have.</p><p>Now, with the upcoming double-attack nerf to the WIS line, some Swashies at least are talking about going back to duel-wield & the STR/AGI combo. Others are saying that the WIS line will still kick out superior DPS overall, though there is argument as to whether or not the increased DPS makes up for the loss of the stats from the off-hand weapon.</p><p>BTW, since I almost never raid, Traumatic Swipe isn't hugely important for me, & since I  use a rapier, I currently can't use Torporous Strike at alll; nice "waste" of 4 AA points. I chose the STR line because of the melee crit & defense buffs, & I thought that "Blackguard Flaye" looked very, very cool over my head <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> while all of the other AA prefix titles for Rogues are IMO pretty lame. </p>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many rogues have the str line bet ya 90% do</blockquote><p>Not necessarily true. I use STR/WIS, but a lot of Rogues go AGI/WIS instead, because of Sailwind & Pirate Stab, & also because Walk The Plank is very nice while soloing. There has been quite a bit of debate as to which combo gives the best overall DPS, & it really comes down to:</p><p>A. Whether you're a Brig or Swashy</p><p>B. Which weapon(s) you have</p><p>C. What kind of buffs, Haste especially, you have.</p><p>Now, with the upcoming double-attack nerf to the WIS line, some Swashies at least are talking about going back to duel-wield & the STR/AGI combo. Others are saying that the WIS line will still kick out superior DPS overall, though there is argument as to whether or not the increased DPS makes up for the loss of the stats from the off-hand weapon.</p><p>BTW, since I almost never raid, Traumatic Swipe isn't hugely important for me, & since I  use a rapier, I currently can't use Torporous Strike at alll; nice "waste" of 4 AA points. I chose the STR line because of the melee crit & defense buffs, & I thought that "Blackguard Flaye" looked very, very cool over my head <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> while all of the other AA prefix titles for Rogues are IMO pretty lame. </p></blockquote><p>Sorry about that I should have speccified raiding rogues 90% use str line.  And that 90% of rogues use the wisdom line for the double attack increase, as I rarely see a rogue with out a onehander and offhand empty.  That was my bad so basically for a raid set up almsot every rogues is specced str/wis.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>And that 90% of rogues use the wisdom line for the double attack increase, as I rarely see a rogue with out a onehander and offhand empty.  That was my bad so basically for a raid set up almsot every rogues is specced str/wis.</blockquote><p>Currently the superior DPS build for Rogues is either STR/WIS or AGI/WIS. Both of those will require 1h weapons & an empty off-hand. The fact that a Rogue isn't dual-wielding isn't evidence that he/she is STR/WIS spec'd.</p><p>I would say that on Mistmoore, there are at least as many raiding Rogues using AGI/WIS as STR/WIS. If your tank is worth a darn at keeping the mob's back to you, Pirate Stab & Sailwind will jack your DPS up to the point that the lack of Traumatic Swipe isn't noticed, & IMHO, Traumatic Swipe isn't a make-or-break ability for a Rogue anyway. For me, by far the more important parts of the STR line, as I mentioned earlier, are the melee crit & defense buffs. I have, on many occasions, thought I would be better off with STR/AGI; because of the o-too-cool STR line prefix, I'm not changing away from STR <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But, to get back to the thread ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I think there's something seriously wrong with talent trees, when one or two of them are so clearly "better" for the assumed role of the class that most players of that class have no incentive to do any of the other lines. I think clearly that was SOE's intention behind the WIS line nerfs, but I don't see where the other lines have been commensurately buffed. I think that because Rogues & Sorcerors are DPS classes, we're always going to go for the AA lines that max DPS. There is simply no good reason not to. That needs to change, IMHO, & to do so, that means making the other lines MORE attractive, not by nerfing the WIS lines. So, yea, in the end, I agree with the Sorcerors, if only because the same nerf is hitting us for much the same reason & with much the same effect.</p>

[simpwrx02]

<p>Sorry about the derailing again, but tramautic swipe is a very widely used ability on raids and if you only have 2 regualr raiding rogues I would bet money that both are specced for the str line, this only applies to raiding as that debuff will help a raid kill certain mobs.  If you can cut the number of AoE stuns in half it makes it much easier to keep the tank alive through the fight as you have less oh sh** moments of healers stunned and dps can do signifiactly faster dps if stunned less.</p><p>However non raid I would say wis specced then what ever for rogues, sorry if I didnt make that clear enough in my previous post.  </p><p>Wizards for dps build raid or otherwise are all wis specced then about 50/50 for either agi or str  mainly depending on play style.</p>

[Shackleton1]

<p>I just realised how strange these changes are.</p><p>If a bunch of swashbucklers are all doing the same thing in game, why <b>wouldn't</b> they all choose the same AA?</p><p>Under the present system, they do take different AA - when they perform a different role, when they are in a different situation. A low level swashbuckler is unlikely to go wis because they can't get a good one hander. A soloing swashbuckler is likely to go agi for walk the plank. A swashbuckler who wants to tank will go stamina. A raiding swashbuckler will go str for traumatic swipe. Unless there's already two rogues with traumatic, in which case they'll go agi. A swashbuckler theoretically might go int for FD if a raid lacks brawler/monk.</p><p>So raiding swashbucklers are almost all in the same situation on raids, almost all perform the same role on raids, and as such almost uniformly go str/wis. </p><p>Why is that unexpected? Isn't that how AA are supposed to work? You make a choice based on a role you intend to fill? You make a choice based on the situation you think you will be in? Isn't that better than toss a coin between agi and wis because my choice makes absolutely no difference?</p>

[Darien al'Staff]

Ok swashies/briggies, let's pull this thread BACK on topic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> the reality is this: Wizards a pure dps class.  Therefore, ---RAIDING WIZARDS--- are ALWAYS going to strive for the setup that allows them the MAXIMUM damage output for their given raids and gear.  AS SUCH, you will ALWAYS have one or two dominant lines that shine through.  Mathmatically, you'll always find the superior setup.  You did a GREAT job with the STA line, SOE.  But nerfing the wis line was NOT called for.  Hell, if I soloed all day long I wouldn't be taking the WIS line anyway. PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE think about that.

[Dasein]

If a single AA line is so important to the class, then that AA line is broken per the intent of the AA system. No single AA line or ability should be seen as essential to any class, so if adjustments to a line are causing this much of an issue, it is proof that line was broken.

[Ironcleaver]

If a class isn't doing the damage in relation to the amount of armor/utility/weapons that other classes get, then things are already out of whack. Wizards (since this thread is about wizards) feel that they should have a higher damage output for what the class has given up and it is hard for a wizard to see that another class, that dosen't have to give up as much, can do easily more damage then said wizard. The wisdom line was a bit powerfull, but it was also the only AA path that wizards can take that effects the base damage of their spells. This fixed some of the problems in the above paragraph, and now that the bonuses are being reduced, wizards are feeling a bit shafted. For a class to receive a reduction in base damage when the majority of that class feels the damage wasn't high enough as it stood, makes for unhappy wizards. I personally believe that the lines should be mixed up more, perhaps there shouldn't be a "speed line", "damage line", "crit line", "solo line", and "hate line". As long as the lines remain this clear cut, some lines will always be chosen over other lines, depending how the character wishes to play their wizard.

[Vonotar]

They're nerfing Wis line? Cool!  I missed being Nerfed!! Banedon (Wiz), Vonotar (War)  Str/Agi lines

[liveja]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry about the derailing again, but tramautic swipe is a very widely used ability on raids and if you only have 2 regualr raiding rogues I would bet money that both are specced for the str line</p></blockquote> There is no good reason for both to be spec'd for it.

[liveja]

Beeglin@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>the reality is this: Wizards a pure dps class.  Therefore, ---RAIDING WIZARDS--- are ALWAYS going to strive for the setup that allows them the MAXIMUM damage output for their given raids and gear.  AS SUCH, you will ALWAYS have one or two dominant lines that shine through.  Mathmatically, you'll always find the superior setup. </blockquote><p>All of that is equally true of us Rogues.</p><p>That is why I'm in this thread: because OUR DPS line is being nerfed, too. & I'm saying it's wrong to nerf the Sorceror DPS line, just as it's wrong to nerf our DPS line.</p><p>Perhaps I was less than clear about this in my posts.</p>

[Darien al'Staff]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Beeglin@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>the reality is this: Wizards a pure dps class.  Therefore, ---RAIDING WIZARDS--- are ALWAYS going to strive for the setup that allows them the MAXIMUM damage output for their given raids and gear.  AS SUCH, you will ALWAYS have one or two dominant lines that shine through.  Mathmatically, you'll always find the superior setup. </blockquote><p>All of that is equally true of us Rogues.</p><p>That is why I'm in this thread: because OUR DPS line is being nerfed, too. & I'm saying it's wrong to nerf the Sorceror DPS line, just as it's wrong to nerf our DPS line.</p><p>Perhaps I was less than clear about this in my posts.</p></blockquote>I realized <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It's just the clearer that issues can be presented to SOE (IE, the less excuses they can make for missing it) the better.  You will ALWAYS have one spec that comes out dominant for a given situation, SOE.  That's what makes it unique...that we can spec for different environments.  (IE:  PvP, Dueling, Raiding, Grouping, Soloing)

[Wossname]

Beeglin@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>It's just the clearer that issues can be presented to SOE (IE, the less excuses they can make for missing it) the better.  You will ALWAYS have one spec that comes out dominant for a given situation, SOE.  That's what makes it unique...that we can spec for different environments.  (IE:  PvP, Dueling, Raiding, Grouping, Soloing) </blockquote> The Sorc and Rogue nerfs are completely unnecessary. I have a Wizard, a Warlock and a Brigand so these changes are going to hit me pretty hard. It is worth mentioning how people choose their AA's. I very much doubt that each Sorc/Rogue independently comes up with the analysis that Str/Wis or Agi/Wis is the best for them. They go and read the guide stickies on class forums or the most recent AA thread. That's what I did. Who writes these posts? Largely they are written by raiders who care about optimisation. For DPS classes they will inevitably by the build that maximise DPS. Some posts do contain comments on group and soloing choices but mostly it's about what matters to raiders. Faced with strong recommendations for specific builds is it surprising that most people have those builds?