Tailor made items lack quality stats etc

[steelblueangel]

<p>Today I dinged 63 on my tailor and I was sadly disappointed when I saw the stats on the master crafted items. </p><p>Example:</p><p>Pristine tailored dragon hide tunic</p><p>16 strenght, 16 sta, 14 agi</p><p>50 health, 50 power</p><p>100 vs magic, 100 vs divine, 201 vs disease, 201 vs posion</p><p>mitigation 232,  +1 defense</p><p>lev 62 fighter, priest, scout (leather)</p><p>example 2:</p><p>Pristine Tailored Dragons breath blouse</p><p>15 sta, 16 wis, 16 int</p><p>50 health, 50 power</p><p>100 vs magic, 100 vs divine, 201 vs disease, 201 vs poison</p><p>mitigation 129, +1 disruption</p><p>lev 62 cloth</p><p>These items are extremly low in health, power, miti, stats etc in comparrison to treasured and legendary armor dropped at those levels; thus, reducing the desire to wear the armor must less buy it. </p><p>The armor provides little defense, resist etc needed for protection etc against lev 62 npc encounters. I have on looted rings that provide more health and power than the master crafted armor, and that is a shame. </p><p>The dragonhide tunic can be worn by fighter , priest, and scouts however, the stats of str, sta, and agi are not desired stats a priest looks for on armor. Priest need wis, inte, and agililty. </p><p>If these items are imbued they only provide a 5% chance to heal the caster for 78  lasting a total of 20 seconds. 5 % out of 100 leaves little chance of a heal that only last for 20 seconds, also 78 heal amount is entirely too low for a low 62 to benefit from; hence, making the imbue a waste of time and item.</p><p>The time spent on revamping how we make things instead of making better produced items is not going to upgrade tradeskills. Instead, we will  be making the same low quality items, the only difference will be the production process. Items that are low in standards providing little protection or benifits will continue to be the current problems of tradeskills and the players will contiunue not to buy or wear them in the game. </p><p>I truly don't see anything wrong with the tradeskill production process we currently have. Instead, the main problems we have with tradeskills are the lower standard of the products we can produce and the reduced number of products we have to make per tier. I would rather see the time spent revamping  tradeskills to be one of  enhancing the quality of the current produced items along with new items added per tiers. </p><p>I tried the nest tradeskill process and failed at it 3 times before I made the pristine product. I found it to be time consuming and frustrating. I hope if that model will be the one we will use will not be as hard to use. With the system we have now I can always make pristine on the first try; instead, of getting frustrated pressing buttons to no avail to lose the pristine item.  The nest method will send me to the poor house by failing over and over to make the product; hence, having to buy more expensive fuels over and over if the all of the fuels are not returned in the revamp. I just wish you would fix the current problems at hand rather than devote so much time to a method of creation. The problem is not the method of creating the product, rather, it is the lack of quality of the product after it is created. When the crafter does not desire to wear their own product they cannot expect anyone else to desire it either. </p><p>All I want to be able to do is to make quality items to wear and sell. The two I listed at the top are a few expamples of many that I would not attune on my character, since what I have on though lower than level 62 armor; yet, they are much better in all areas, and that is a shame. My toon has on level 60 treasured and legendary armor that is so much above the lev 62 mastercrafted  there is no comparrions. What my toon has on is not great but is far better than what I can make. </p>

[denmom]

What you listed was the basic mastercrafted suit. Look for the stats on the mastercrafted Woven and Dexterous suits for priests and bruisers/monks.  You can make those L68 and 69.  I have my L68 Warden in the L62 mastercrafted Woven and my L52 Warden in the L52 mastercrafted Woven.  My spouse's Bruiser is in the L52 mastercrafted Dexterous. What I call the specialty suits are gear for the classes, but at the sacrifice of imbuement of shirt and pants.  The same for the mastercrafted Tranquility cloth and the other specialty cloth suits.

[Sapphirius]

<p>The basic mastercrafted outfits focus on 3 stats instead of just two, so their numbers are going to be lower. The woven dragonhide that my warden wore, and the dextrous dragonhide that my monk has have higher stats, but at the cost of only having two.</p><ul><li>Dextrous - 20 str & agi</li><li>Woven - 20 sta & wis.</li><li>Regular - 16 str, sta & agi</li></ul><p>If they were to raise the stats on regular mastercrafted armor, then they would have to also raise the stats on dedicated mastercrafted armor. If I'm not mistaken in my memory (and I am often mistaken), they had to lower the stats on mastercrafted before beta went live because they were overpowered. I don't foresee them raising those stats again, though I most certainly wouldn't complain if they were.</p><p>Now this is just the attribute stats, not health, power, mitigation, or resistances. Yes, as you further along, you will find armor with better health, better power, better mitigation, and better resists. Believe it or not, tailors don't have it as bad as armorsmiths do. I know people who wear their mastercrafted leather or cloth armor all the way to 70 before they replace it with better. Let's face it, unless you're soloing or on a PvP server, mitigation doesn't matter all that much to a caster or druid. Warriors, crusaders, and scouts on the other hand... </p><p>Armorsmithed items are very quickly replaced by them as they <i>have</i> to keep their mitigation, resistances, and health up as high as possible. When I see a zerker running around still in xegonite at level 70, my first thought is, "I don't want him tanking for me. I don't care how well he holds aggro. Keeping his tail standing in that outfit as the only healer in an Unrest run is going to be painful." I don't say the same when I see furies running around in woven dragonhide at 70. Furies aren't taking the hits.</p><p>Truth be told, as far as cloth and leather armor goes, you really don't get into a lot of the better drops/quested items until later in T7. If you really want to gripe, take a look at weaponsmiths. Their weapons are made obsolete before level 62 ever comes around the corner, and unlike tailors and armorsmiths who can fill 7 different slots plus shields/ranged throwing weapons (pouches, bandoliers, sheathes), weaponsmiths can only fill 2 slots.. if they ever even get an order.</p>

[steelblueangel]

<p>sapphirius wrote:"If I'm not mistaken in my memory (and I am often mistaken), they had to lower the stats on mastercrafted before beta went live because they were overpowered"</p><p>Sapphirius mastercrafted is not overpowered and never has been in fact mastercrafted is junk compared to MOST TREASURED drops! All master crafted items need to upgraded in stats etc. </p><p>Priest and for that matter need all of the stats / mit/ health etc just like all other classes. You make it sound like they never take a hit in battle. And that is just not true. Not to mention those that like to solo need better armor.</p><p>Its hard to believe that anyone could look at the master crafted armor and say oh its great dont change a thing, when in fact most of what a crafter makes is a joke and nothing more than vendor trash. </p>

[denmom]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>sapphirius wrote:"If I'm not mistaken in my memory (and I am often mistaken), they had to lower the stats on mastercrafted before beta went live because they were overpowered"</p><p>Sapphirius mastercrafted is not overpowered and never has been in fact mastercrafted is junk compared to MOST TREASURED drops! All master crafted items need to upgraded in stats etc. </p><p>Priest and for that matter need all of the stats / mit/ health etc just like all other classes. You make it sound like they never take a hit in battle. And that is just not true. Not to mention those that like to solo need better armor.</p><p>Its hard to believe that anyone could look at the master crafted armor and say oh its great dont change a thing, when in fact most of what a crafter makes is a joke and nothing more than vendor trash. </p></blockquote> MC'd items used to be.  They had the Legendary tag and were far better, if I remember right, than treasured.  Handcrafted was better than treasured, I remember outfitting my toons in that. I remember making four sets of handcrafted, one of each tier because then if you were L14 you could equip crude.  At L16 you could equip the next quality level, at L18 it was shaped, at L20 it was the pristine.  When I had mine in those they would fare far better than in the L10 handcrafted. When the itemization was changed, so did the mastercrafted and handcrafted.  I shifted from all of mine being in handcrafted over to mastercrafted because it was better...not as good as the treasured drops but at least it was a better option than the handcrafted. From what I've seen, those who solo tend to mix and match basic mastercrafted with the Woven set or the Dexterous set for stats they want to have raised. I've been running in mastercrafted L62 Woven, and yes, I'm finding that at the end game you have to get into fabled or legendary...but I'm also finding that most of the end game is heroic instances and raiding content which usually require fabled/legendary to withstand damage. I ran thru Halls of Fate for the first time last night with two friends and pick ups.  The Brig was in raid gear, the Guard was in xegonite, both L70.  It was a vast difference in which of them could take damage...the Brig wound up being MT 95% of the way through because they could take the hits better than the Guard. I've seen drops in Bonemire off yard mobs that have stats equal to or better than my MC'd gear.  My L68's jewelry is a mix of legendary, treasured, and two MC'd pieces because I couldn't find anything on broker that could beat the stats of the necklace and bracelet within my budget. So yes, I agree that MC'd gear could stand a nudge and bump up in stats...it was thoroughly "Beghned".  However, I have to say that it is possible to go thru the game with MC'd gear.  I've done it on all of mine to date...just finding I have to change to fabled/legendary/treasured in the end game. Boy, a bit of a ramble there...sorry...need food and tea...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sapphirius]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>sapphirius wrote:"If I'm not mistaken in my memory (and I am often mistaken), they had to lower the stats on mastercrafted before beta went live because they were overpowered"</p><p>Sapphirius mastercrafted is not overpowered and never has been in fact mastercrafted is junk compared to MOST TREASURED drops! All master crafted items need to upgraded in stats etc. </p><p>Priest and for that matter need all of the stats / mit/ health etc just like all other classes. You make it sound like they never take a hit in battle. And that is just not true. Not to mention those that like to solo need better armor.</p><p>Its hard to believe that anyone could look at the master crafted armor and say oh its great dont change a thing, when in fact most of what a crafter makes is a joke and nothing more than vendor trash. </p></blockquote><p>Hehehe. You either didn't play before the release of KoS or didn't play on beta.</p><p>While I agree that, <i>currently</i> (with all the wonderful EoF stuff out there), mastercrafted is not overpowered, at one time, it <i>was</i> overpowered and the stats and resists had to be adjusted. Yes, I can find drops that will give me more stats and health/power that are treasured, but it is almost always at the cost of resists or mitigation. I can work harder and find legendary and fabled gear that blows mastercrafted out of the water, but IMHO, legendary and fabled <i>should</i> be better than mastercrafted. I even remember a time when T7 mastercrafted was considered to be a far cry better than T6 fabled, and IMO, the previous tier fabled should be as good or better than the current tier mastercrafted (but I think that memory was from beta, before the armor nerfs).</p><p>I don't care for the stats on mastercrafted items either, especially on mastercrafted weapons, but it is a far cry from the dismal state that you portray them at.</p><p>EDIT: Oh, and I never said that mastercrafted armor was fine the way it is. I said that <i>I don't foresee them changing the stats</i> and that tailors have it better than armorsmiths and weaponsmiths... which is very true.</p><p>I also never said that mitigation doesn't matter at all to casters or druids. I said that it doesn't matter <i>as much</i> to them. I know templars who will run around in chain and leather because the stats are better for healing. Whether you want to admit it or not, tanks are the most gear-dependant class in the game, and those are the ones who will worry most about mitigation and resistances.</p><p>There's a difference between what you think I said and what I actually said.</p>

[Drakaran]

<cite>denmom wrote:</cite><blockquote>MC'd items used to be.  They had the Legendary tag and were far better, if I remember right, than treasured.  Handcrafted was better than treasured, I remember outfitting my toons in that. ... </blockquote>yes, they used to be (and it's very nice to see you still posting here denmom). I left for about a year as the TS nerf hit and then came back. I still have some of the old handcrafted on my characters from prenerf, and they are on par or a little better than the drop stuff, so I haven't replaced them yet. I obviously also haven't done much TSing since coming back as it's total garbage and I don't see the point in making stuff I won't wear and won't use, like the original post in this thread said. (I also get the odd feeling that the fighting skills have also been retooled as my characters just don't seem as herioc and larger-than-life as they used to *sigh*) Frankly, as it gets closer to time to pay the monthly fee, the more likely I feel I'm going to cancel my subscription again and go back to wait-and-see until there is a real reason to return to EQ2 in a substantial way. I just feel like the love for this game has been drained away and it's been replaced with the business of making money. I do feel Domino is doing a great job, just that without major retooling, TSing has been killed.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Drakaran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do feel Domino is doing a great job, just that without major retooling, TSing has been killed. </blockquote>QFT, but I'd say the retooling is in most desperate need for outfitters.

[Oakum]

<p>Its sad but true but MC is mostly junk and only really used by people who twink alts mostly and powerlevel so they don't see a lot of variety of treasured drops. If someone harvest their own raws because they ts too they often have it made also. </p><p>MC used to be legendary in DoF but was nerfed to almost uselessness. Then their were a lot of raider complaints because it was too good and could be used to get into raiding (which it was supposed to be a way to prepare for raiding) while some raid drops were poorly itemized and only had slighter higher of the same stats plus a totally different stat and a proc to to make it better. </p><p>As I remember it the first time I see a post from a dev stating that rare crafted was too good was in a raid loot complaint post and that it would be fixed. Of course they had to recant their statements that rare crafted was a way to start raiding too since someone wearing MC is just asking to die on a raid now from an aoe or get one shotted by almost any named in a raid zone. </p><p>Yes, I am a little bitter that whiners got the crafting products nerfed and the crafting system to require no thought at all or process either and is assemblyline style. Unfortuneately, because so much work as went into destroying the crafting system and itemizing the products of it to be almost if not worthless, I don't see them changing it at all. The only hope the TS system has is totally new recipies that will be wanted as well as comsumables like potions/poisons/arrows that adventures will actually want enough to buy or raise a WW to make themselves.  </p><p>MC is good if you unless you don't do dungeons like SoS (a group of lvl 60's can kill there and get better gear or at least on par with MC thats treasured even) or PoA (groups of lvl 64 plus and get better gear then MC), or nest of the great egg/den/HoF when high enough for better legendary/treasured gear and that doesnt even take in account the even better legendary/treasured gear that drops in EoF. </p><p>MC will be acceptable if you are just killing in open areas though like tt/bs/bm and doing the solo quest lines though. I see a lot of twinked power lvled alts in it also. </p>

[Calthine]

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>only really used by people who twink alts mostly and powerlevel so they don't see a lot of variety of treasured drops.</p> </blockquote> I'll disagree with that statement.  I know folks who always get the MC, at least to start the Tier.  However, it's definately not as good as we were originally told it would be before the revamp.

[denmom]

<cite>Drakaran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>denmom wrote:</cite><blockquote>MC'd items used to be.  They had the Legendary tag and were far better, if I remember right, than treasured.  Handcrafted was better than treasured, I remember outfitting my toons in that. ... </blockquote>yes, they used to be (and it's very nice to see you still posting here denmom). I left for about a year as the TS nerf hit and then came back. I still have some of the old handcrafted on my characters from prenerf, and they are on par or a little better than the drop stuff, so I haven't replaced them yet. I obviously also haven't done much TSing since coming back as it's total garbage and I don't see the point in making stuff I won't wear and won't use, like the original post in this thread said. (I also get the odd feeling that the fighting skills have also been retooled as my characters just don't seem as herioc and larger-than-life as they used to *sigh*) Frankly, as it gets closer to time to pay the monthly fee, the more likely I feel I'm going to cancel my subscription again and go back to wait-and-see until there is a real reason to return to EQ2 in a substantial way. I just feel like the love for this game has been drained away and it's been replaced with the business of making money. I do feel Domino is doing a great job, just that without major retooling, TSing has been killed. </blockquote>*bows* Thank you.  Been lurking but then subjects came up I just couldn't keep quiet on. And you're not wrong in the idea of skills and such being redone, they were. I fully understand your reasons for considering leaving...I often feel the same way.  Especially now that my Warden has reached endgame at L68.  It's all heroic or raid content, not much that duos can do, which is how my spouse and I play 99% of the time. Hopefully what Domino has done and will do will bring back the spark and joy for you.  And hopefully what's in store with Kunark will as well.

[Sapphirius]

<p>I said that tailors don't really have it all that bad and that the state of tailor-made mastercrafted was not as dismal as you two portray it to be. I said this because I look at tailoring with an unbiased view point. I'm not a tailor, and I freely admit that my view of weaponsmithing is <i>very</i> biased. <grins></p><p>Treasured drops of approximately equal level are not significantly better than tailor-made mastercrafted armor. In fact, most of the pieces I found were significantly worse. I screenshotted the best of the treasured pieces I found from levels 60 to 65. (If you want a truly fair comparison, you can't really go above level 65 or lower than 60.) Here is your side-by-side comparison of mastercrafted and treasured, or at least as side-by-side as it's going to get.</p><p><b>Leather Armor</b></p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/MCLeather2.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/MCLeather1.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/MCLeather3.jpg" border="0"></p><p>Note that the regular leather armor can be imbued while dedicated leather armor cannot. Also note that, while the regular leather has lower stats, it also has more of them and higher resists than the dedicated leather. Also note the mitigation, since that was pointed out to me earlier... 232.</p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TLeather8.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TLeather7.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TLeather6.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TLeather5.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TLeather4.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TLeather3.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TLeather1.jpg" border="0"></p><p>I see mitigation lower on all ranging from 12 to 56 points lower in mitigation. Some of them have higher resists, but only in one area. Some of them don't have resists at all. Most of them have lower health and power and the stats are on par or lower than the MC leather.</p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/LLeather1.jpg" border="0"></p><p>Now here's a pair of legendary leather legs, and these are considered to be very good pants for the level. 1 less to each stat from the normal MC leather. 15 more to health and power than the regular, but it's 5 less to stats and 5 less to health and power from the dedicated MC leather. Add to this that it's only a whopping 7 more mitigation. No resists, but it does add to crush/slash/pierce, which raises the mitigation of the pants and why it's considered to be a good pair of pants.</p><p><b>Cloth Armor</b></p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/MCCloth1.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/MCCloth2.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/MCCloth3.jpg" border="0"></p><p>As with the MC leather above, the regular dragon's breath has lower stats and health/power but more stats in general. The tranquil pants only have one stat to offer, but the highest resists out of the three. The mitigation is 129 on all of them.</p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TCloth5.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TCloth4.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TCloth3.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TCloth2.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/TCloth1.jpg" border="0"></p><p>Once again, I don't really see where the mitigation is higher. In fact, it's lower by 10 to 31 points. Resists are sometimes lower and sometimes higher, but much fewer of them, and none of the resists are higher than the tranquil pants. The health and power is lower than the dedicated pants, but (with the exception of one) higher than the regular pants. The stats on them... could be better.</p><p><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/LCloth2.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Sapphirius/LCloth1.jpg" border="0"></p><p>The legendary cloth pants available in that level range are marginally better than the mastercrafted, and then that really depends on your definition of better.</p><p>So? Why aren't more people choosing to wear treasured drops over mastercrafted, in spite of evidence above which shows mastercrafted to be the better choice for early in the tier? Money may have a huge bit to do with it. Time is another issue... weeks of trapping dens or 5 hours of hunting in SoS. The ability to even harvest at T7, you'd be surprised at the number of people who can't. Speed and ease of acquiring in that the person may be power-leveling themselves (no, not with an illegal 3rd party service). I know that many times I won't bother to get certain things or the best gear for my alts because I know they won't be at that level for very long.</p><p>By the time you reach end game, yes, your mastercrafted armor will be replaced. Once you hit 70, you're really in a new tier... hence the level 70 channel seperate from the level 60-69 channel.</p>

[steelblueangel]

<p>sapphirius</p><p>Sapphirius you are preaching to the choir as far as I am concerned because I agree. You dont have to keep on about tailors dont have it so bad, as if myself or others dont know or believe that the armor smith/ weapon smith sail in the same junk craft boat. I am a tailor; however,  my husband has both an armor and a weapon smith so I'm fully aware that both are shafted and neither Weaponsmith, armor, or tailor crafts are better off than the other when it comes to mitigation, stats etc. in the master crafted items. I play a guardian and wear the MC only until I can find treasured or legendary drops and the SAME holds true for my warden. </p><p>That is one of the main problems on these forums, posters never stand together on anything or very rarely; instead, we play one side down as lacking in true problems in order to put another topic at the top of the list. And I say that ALL tradeskilled MC items are at the bottom of the list and ALL MC items need to moved to top priority to be redone. If the items we make are not greatly improved the desire to start a profession or to continue one will become pointless since the npcs are getting boost everyday in hp's etc and MC is already far behind the ability to survive in or fight with, and that goes for MC tailor, weaponsmith, and armorsmith crafted items. </p><p>I agree with onother poster all MC is good for is low level toons but at lev 50 and above to survive in battle you better look else where for protection because you sure wont find it on a master crafted item and thats a fact. </p><p>It is also sad as another poster stated that the raiders control so much of this game with their comments and complaints which resulted in the nerf of MC armor and weapons. Raiders are not the majority in this game yet it seems their voices are so much louder than the rest. One of the main reason the raiders are heard while we are silenced is that they stand together and will flame you from one end of the realm to the other in the forums when the casual player desires just a crumb from the rich raiders table. </p><p>So much time it seems is being devoted to revamping how we are going to make junk armor; which I still fail to see why the process needs to be changed  at all or how it will benefit the crafter. The new crafting process will  reduce the number of items made that can be sold to the vendor to compensate for the outragous prices of fuel. One will still have to spam counters which will take the same amount of time the only difference is if you fail you get your rare back. With the current system I never fail at pristine so getting a rare back is not an upgrade; in fact, if the new system is created like the "nest" system, I failed 3 times before I made a pristine product there, and that my friends is not an improvement it was frustrating and a waste of time. I don't see anything wrong with the crafting process it's the crafted products that have the problem. Revamping the crafting process will not make the items give more stats, miti, health, power etc when time needs to be spent on armor updates and new recipes. I have yet to read how a new tradeskill process will enchance tradeskills. I would really like to know how it will benefit the tradeskiller. Will it save time? Will it save money? As I stated it took longer due to failures no mater what I countered with in the nest and there will only be 2 items in that method that can be sold back to the vendor to recoop on fuel cost the final product and the product under it . So why spend so much time on a system that will NOT give any more benefits to the crafter ( in fact it will make the process more expensive and longer due to failures), when so many other things need to be addressed first? RARELY does any change benefit the player so if its not broke dont fix it. The tradeskill process is not broken; however, the items we produce are below standards and considered vendor trash and that needs to be fixed. </p>

[Calthine]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is one of the main problems on these forums, posters never stand together on anything or very rarely</blockquote> Ironically, I disagree with you!

[steelblueangel]

<p>Calthine it's ok that you disagree with me as Im sure others may disagree also, but many will agree. However, I find that we stay so divided on issues that result in only few problems getting recognized and then most importantly fixed. By not standing together as tradeskillers the topics become muddled and trail away from the problems at hand and become nothing more than rants against one another. </p>

[Deson]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Calthine it's ok that you disagree with me as Im sure others may disagree also, but many will agree. However, I find that we stay so divided on issues that result in only few problems getting recognized and then most importantly fixed. By not standing together as tradeskillers the topics become muddled and trail away from the problems at hand and become nothing more than rants against one another. </p></blockquote>Not sure I understand what you mean by divided. What I see is there is a general consensus on the issues with crafted but the disagreement is with how to remedy them.

[steelblueangel]

<p>Your post is a prime example Deason. You said nothing about the lack of quality of Master crafted items; instead, you are nick picking on words and that is where the division takes place. The post gets deralled over nit picking words, instead of requesting that MASTER CRAFTED ARMOR AND WEAPONS GET UPDATED to SURVIVE IN. I'm not gonna go back and forth with you Deason on word plays that is not the objective of this post. I want to make quality Master Crafted items. </p>

[Terron]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sapphirius you are preaching to the choir as far as I am concerned because I agree. You dont have to keep on about tailors dont have it so bad, as if myself or others dont know or believe that the armor smith/ weapon smith sail in the same junk craft boat. I am a tailor; however,  my husband has both an armor and a weapon smith so I'm fully aware that both are shafted and neither Weaponsmith, armor, or tailor crafts are better off than the other when it comes to mitigation, stats etc. in the master crafted items. I play a guardian and wear the MC only until I can find treasured or legendary drops and the SAME holds true for my warden. </p></blockquote>My main is a level 70 guardian. I mostly solo, but sometimes join guild raids. I have never seen a treasured drop with mitigation equal to xegonite. I still regularly wear 3 pieces of xegonite armour. I have a legendary helm I rarely wear because it looks horrible. I have a T7 fabled and T7 legendary chest pieces, but wear my mastercrafted one when soloing for the imbued proc. I have not been able to get better leg armour. (I've seen some drop but not won it). Tailors are better off than armourers and weaponsmiths in that they can make bags, hex dolls, and "throwing weapon"s for which there is little competition from drops or quests.

[Deson]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your post is a prime example Deason. You said nothing about the lack of quality of Master crafted items; instead, you are nick picking on words and that is where the division takes place. The post gets deralled over nit picking words, instead of requesting that MASTER CRAFTED ARMOR AND WEAPONS GET UPDATED to SURVIVE IN. I'm not gonna go back and forth with you Deason on word plays that is not the objective of this post.<b> I want to make quality Master Crafted items.</b> </p></blockquote>And everyone here has agreed with that. Like I said, the TS forums generally agree that something needs to be done, the question is what.  You can't make serious requests for rebalances and improvements without first going over what is- like Sapphirius did. She did not disagree that gear should get an uptick, she just gave the example to show where certain gear was relative to drops and stated who she believes needs help asap. She effectively just stated what her priority on fixes is since time has to be allocated for any change and there is a limit to what can be done first and such. As for us, it's not word play. I asked what you meant by divided since most should come to the conclusion that crafters agree on the problems but not the cures; it happens all the time and we simply all aren't going to agree on the specifics. We tend to state our feelings and priorities, have a neat, if sometimes heated discussion and the devs make the call. We won't all be happy but, different perspectives get argued and most of the time, the game is improved. So, did you mean we snipe each other over the problems or the cures with that statement?

[Terron]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The post gets deralled over nit picking words, instead of requesting that MASTER CRAFTED ARMOR AND WEAPONS GET UPDATED to SURVIVE IN. I'm not gonna go back and forth with you Deason on word plays that is not the objective of this post. I want to make quality Master Crafted items. </p></blockquote>Generally mastercrafted gear is better than treasured, and not as good a legendary, though the gaps are small. I can not see that being changed back for gear made from harvested items. Raiding depends too much on people wanting to improve their gear. I don't like it, but there are alternatives. Crafting from drops such as the DFC armour allows for crafted gear a step beyond the current. I dislike that the crafting has to be done in DFC, but otherwise it works well. There is I think a fabled weapon that can be crafted using raid drops.

[Deson]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The post gets deralled over nit picking words, instead of requesting that MASTER CRAFTED ARMOR AND WEAPONS GET UPDATED to SURVIVE IN. I'm not gonna go back and forth with you Deason on word plays that is not the objective of this post. I want to make quality Master Crafted items. </p></blockquote>Generally mastercrafted gear is better than treasured, and not as good a legendary, though the gaps are small. I can not see that being changed back for gear made from harvested items. <b> Raiding </b>depends too much on people wanting to improve their gear. I don't like it, but there are alternatives. <b> Crafting from drops such as the DFC armour allows for crafted gear a step beyond the current. I dislike that the crafting has to be done in DFC, but otherwise it works well.</b> There is I think a fabled weapon that can be crafted using raid drops. </blockquote> Change raiding to adventuring and we are fully agreed. Here are the <a href="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/eq2_loot.php?BrowseNPC=1&exp_id=7&pack_id=20" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">EH recipes</a> courtesy of Xanadu.

[JeffBship]

<p>Call me addicted, but I have 3 adventuror 70's, and 3 crafting 70's.  I have experienced both sides of the debate.</p><p>Those who raid the hardest zones deserve the best gear.  SOE knows this and itemizes for it. </p><p>Crafted gear will never be as good as high level loot...it's just not gonna happen.</p><p>If crafters realized that and worked within the system rather than trying to fight it, we'd all realize that there are a lot of things that crafting does not compete with looting.  Backpacks, repair kits, food/drinks, furniture, totems, potions, poisons,  Many Adept3 spells.</p><p>If you ask me, the way to improve the happiness factor of crafters and adventurers alike would be to make more of these type of items that are very important to adventurers and can only be obtained from a crafter.  They're working this direction a little with the big improvement in crafted ammo vs. merchant ammo for instance.  </p><p> Also, as long as bots can craft then crafters will never be happy.  The market will continue to be flooded.  Xegonberries have been more expensive than the drinks they make for a long time.  A simple revamp to the crafting process so that bots can't participate and  Poof, everyone is happy.  How simple, you ask?  Go open up a yahoo or hotmail email account and you will see an image where you have to write down what the number in it is, but it's a swirly thing that bots won't interpret.  Simply put one of those in whenever starting crafting at a station and every 5 or so combines.  PooF!  no more bots!  Crafters are deleriously happy, and shoppers are [Removed for Content] that prices go up but they'd understand.</p>

[Deson]

<cite>JeffBship wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Call me addicted, but I have 3 adventuror 70's, and 3 crafting 70's.  I have experienced both sides of the debate.</p><p><b>Those who raid the hardest zones deserve the best gear.  SOE knows this and itemizes for it. </b></p><p><b>Crafted gear will never be as good as high level loot...it's just not gonna happen.</b></p><p><b>If crafters realized that and worked within the system rather than trying to fight it, we'd all realize that there are a lot of things that we do not complete with loot.  Backpacks, repair kits, food/drinks, furniture, totems, potions, poisons,  Many Adept3 spells.</b></p><p>If you ask me, the way to improve the happiness factor of crafters and adventurers alike would be to make more of these type of items that are very important to adventurers and can only be obtained from a crafter.  They're working this direction a little with the big improvement in crafted ammo vs. merchant ammo for instance.  </p><p> Also, as long as bots can craft then crafters will never be happy.  The market will continue to be flooded.  Xegonberries have been more expensive than the drinks they make for a long time.  A simple revamp to the crafting process so that bots can't participate and  Poof, everyone is happy.  How simple, you ask?  Go open up a yahoo or hotmail email account and you will see an image where you have to write down what the number in it is, but it's a swirly thing that bots won't interpret.  Simply put one of those in whenever starting crafting at a station and every 5 or so combines.  PooF!  no more bots!  Crafters are deleriously happy, and shoppers are [Removed for Content] that prices go up but they'd understand.</p></blockquote>Of course, Secrets of.../EH style recipes and even the DFC gear satisfies both parties when done right. Not sure how those swirly things would play out to me. I generally hate anything that messes with my crafting...actually my gaming groove at all.  You seem technically adept and I'm unfamiliar with bots so a couple questions- If they cant recognize the swirls, how do they react to the crafting events since no info I can see shows up in a chat to tell you counter it? If they don't do so hot with those events, wouldn't a more involved crafting process/ nest style crafting process shut out much of the botted product?

[JeffBship]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course, Secrets of.../EH style recipes and even the DFC gear satisfies both parties when done right. Not sure how those swirly things would play out to me. I generally hate anything that messes with my crafting...actually my gaming groove at all.  You seem technically adept and I'm unfamiliar with bots so a couple questions- If they cant recognize the swirls, how do they react to the crafting events since no info I can see shows up in a chat to tell you counter it? If they don't do so hot with those events, wouldn't a more involved crafting process/ nest style crafting process shut out much of the botted product? </blockquote><p> As long as crafting is a set of events that is repeated, then software can be built to interpret it.  There are a small number (~27) icons that occur in crafting, and since it's a whack a mole process...see icon X, click button Y...it's not hard to build that software.</p><p>Slightly intrusive to the roleplaying aspect, adding a simple random question or such at the beginning of the process would get rid of these type of bots instantly.  Of course software could be made to defeat any anti-botting attempt, but remember we're not up against the CIA and the NSA here, it's college kids and such.  As soon as the software needed to bot reaches a certain complexity leve then it's more work than people are going to be willing to do.</p><p>While it's an interesting debate though, it simply isn't going to happen.  Think about it.  The game has been out for a couple years now, if stopping bots was on the top 100 priority list it would have been done long ago.  Same with plat spammers.  The simple fact of the matter is that SOE is a for-profit corporation.  When you cancel your account (I did once for a couple months) you get an exit poll that asks what your problems were.  People don't quit because of botters and spammers.  People don't quit (in appreciable numbers) because of bugs.  People quit because the game gets boring to them and they want to try something new.  So the way to keep people around is to keep putting fresh things in.  Remember they don't have unlimited resources.  They have to assign programmers to the items that keep the game lucrative.  If they hired enough to cover ever little thing, they'd be out of business soon on payroll expenses.</p><p> So...  Crafting is what it is, not what you wish it is...sort of like life.  Sure there's an evolutionary process of change but even so it will never be perfect to all people.  Some people's glasses are half empty, they'd probably have more luck finding a different glass that is half full than waiting for someone to fill up their half empty glass.</p><p>Can you tell I'm at work and it's a slow day so far???  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[JeffBship]

<p>As long as I'm defending SOE's botting and plat spamming actions (or lack thereof)...</p><p>Does anyone know anybody ever that has cancelled their account because of plat spamming??  While it's an annoyance, does it really affect anyone's gameplay even close to the extent that they cancelled?</p><p>I think the only aspect of the plat industry that is actually frustrating to the point that someone might log off is when mobs you need are evercamped by a bot group.  Maybe they've gotten smarter and found instanced zones or something, or maybe I just haven't been in there areas lately, but I haven't encountered any for a long time and rarely hear complaints about them.</p><p>Stopping the spam would be easy...simply create a filter that if an account send more than X tells within Y minutes, capture them and send the transcript to customer service.  When customer service looks at the transcript, it's instantly apparent who is a plat spammer.  Then ban that account, IP address, credit card number, etcetera.  But....if few people are cancelling their accounts from spam this isn't the most productive place to put limited resources to keep the game lucrative long term.  And of course it's offset a bit when the spammers have to buy accounts (remember they can't send spam from trial accounts anymore....ever notice that and do a bit of economic analysis?)</p><p>This may sound like a rant against SOE, and it's not.  If anything, it's a rant against people that don't understand reality.  SOE is doing their job very well...they identify what the majority of people want and they put the most resources into those things.  Things that relatively fewer people want get less effort...like the occasional mention in a dev chat to let people know they understand but no actual promises <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[JeffBship]

<cite>JeffBship wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Stopping the spam would be easy...</p></blockquote>By the way, I'm an analytical guy (ISTJ if you understand that lingo).  When I say easy I mean easy to understand...not easy like only 5 min of work.  Even one line of change to software of this complexity can create hundreds of manhrs of work and should not be taken lightly....which they obviously don't <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Terron]

<cite>JeffBship wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If crafters realized that and worked within the system rather than trying to fight it, we'd all realize that there are a lot of things that we do not complete with loot.  Backpacks, repair kits, food/drinks, furniture, totems, potions, poisons,  Many Adept3 spells.</p><p>If you ask me, the way to improve the happiness factor of crafters and adventurers alike would be to make more of these type of items that are very important to adventurers and can only be obtained from a crafter.  They're working this direction a little with the big improvement in crafted ammo vs. merchant ammo for instance.  </p></blockquote>Dropped ammo is even better, but because  it gets consumed is not really a problem for the crafters. There are only a few adept IIIs for which there are no masters. A few more would be nice. Basically though I agree that finding niches where crafters can make the best goods is important. For some classes it is easy - carpenters and provisioners For others it is much harder - armourers and weaponsmiths. It is not the only way though. The DFC armour shows that the use of dropped components can help improve crafters products without upsetting adventurers.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your post is a prime example Deason. You said nothing about the lack of quality of Master crafted items; instead, you are nick picking on words and that is where the division takes place. The post gets deralled over nit picking words, instead of requesting that MASTER CRAFTED ARMOR AND WEAPONS GET UPDATED to SURVIVE IN. I'm not gonna go back and forth with you Deason on word plays that is not the objective of this post.<b> I want to make quality Master Crafted items.</b> </p></blockquote>And everyone here has agreed with that. Like I said, the TS forums generally agree that something needs to be done, the question is what.  <b>You can't make serious requests for rebalances and improvements without first going over what is-</b> like Sapphirius did. She did not disagree that gear should get an uptick, she just gave the example to show where certain gear was relative to drops and stated who she believes needs help asap. She effectively just stated what her priority on fixes is since time has to be allocated for any change and there is a limit to what can be done first and such. As for us, it's not word play. I asked what you meant by divided since most should come to the conclusion that crafters agree on the problems but not the cures; it happens all the time and we simply all aren't going to agree on the specifics. We tend to state our feelings and priorities, have a neat, if sometimes heated discussion and the devs make the call. We won't all be happy but, different perspectives get argued and most of the time, the game is improved. So, did you mean we snipe each other over the problems or the cures with that statement? </blockquote><p>I see nothing wrong with disagreement. How can you reach a resolution without conflict? It is human nature to disagree on an issue, especially once you get multiple view points added into the mix. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not even going to address the botting posts as botting has absolutely <i>zilch</i> to do with the quality of mastercrafted items.</p><p>Tailoring does not have it so bad. Armorsmithing has it slightly worse than tailoring. Weaponsmiths have it worst of the three, and yes, my view point is biased. I don't make that statement without research though.</p><p>Does it have to do with the quality of items compared to treasured drops? <i>No</i>, in most cases, it does not. I've already proven that mastercrafted is better than treasured of approximately equal level. Does it have to do with the quantity of items that each profession can make. No, it does not. Why is it progressively worse for weaponsmiths than armorers and then armorers than tailors? <i><b>It has to do with the amount of items each can make that are in demand by other players.</b></i></p><p>Tailors - They can make items to fill 7 different armor slots, ranged weapons (pouches, sheaths, bandoliers), ammo pouches, hex dolls of which there are 2 charmed slots, and bags of which there are 6 inventory slots for bags. All in all, <i>that's a total of 17 different items</i> that a cloth/leather wearer will demand from a tailor. And an average of 10 items that a scout or fighter will request, at minimum that's 8 slots they can fill for adventurers who don't wear cloth/leather or use ranged weapons (shamans & clerics).</p><p>Armorers - They can make armor to fill 7 different armor slots and shields. <i>That's a total of 8 slots</i> they can fill, and not everyone can wear chain or plate armor, so a lot of people wander on their way without ever needing a single armorer-made item.</p><p>Weaponsmiths - They can make weapons. They can fill two slots, primary and offhand. About half the players in the game do not use off hand weapons. They use shields or symbols, so <i>that's a maximum of 2 slots</i> they can fill, a minimum of 1. Many people never go to weaponsmiths. They use wands, staves, and clubs that are crafted by woodworkers.</p><p>Let's see now: Tailors can fill up to 17 slots. Armorers can fill up to 8 slots. Weaponsmiths can fill up to 2 slots. <i>That</i> is why I said that armorers have it worse than tailors and that weaponsmiths have it worst of the three. It's a demand issue. </p>

[JeffBship]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dropped ammo is even better, but because  it gets consumed is not really a problem for the crafters. There are only a few adept IIIs for which there are no masters. A few more would be nice. Basically though I agree that finding niches where crafters can make the best goods is important. For some classes it is easy - carpenters and provisioners For others it is much harder - armourers and weaponsmiths. It is not the only way though. The DFC armour shows that the use of dropped components can help improve crafters products without upsetting adventurers. </blockquote><p> By adept3's, I mean that there are a lot of spells that the master rarely drops and are prohitedly expensive on the broker if they ever appear.  For instance just check the broker every day for Conjuror Mage pet master...you'll go months without seeing one.  The Adept3 version of those spells sell well.</p><p>Consumable recipe drops in high level zones, which have limited uses and create desired items are great...  Halasian Whiskey comes to mind.  Botters will never make those because there isn't a flood of recipes and resources.  Even if they farmed unrest....there's a lockout <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Sadly, one of my 70 crafters is an armorer, and I have a 60ish weaponsmith that I gave up on since there's no reason to waste time on him.  I'm thinking this is why SOE is putting in the option to change tradeskill class.  It would be nice to not have to start over at complete zero...like maybe some sort of a training quest in your new class and you get to switch at your current level.  Something like make one of every recipe in a level and you get the next level, up to the max level you were previously.  In reality though, changing tradeskill levels will likely make people frustrated.  I mean, suppose a non-consumable weaponsmith decides that if he/she were an ammo maker then there would be a demand for the products...so they go to all the work and effort of switching and leveling up only to find out that since the ammo making industry is a consumable that's where the bots are the worst and it's impossible to compete at a level of production that is worth your time. (ammo, food/drinks, potions/poisons...)  The grass is rarely all green on the other side of the fence...often it's just a different shade of brown.</p><p>DFC armor is a great, you're right.  I hope they do a lot more of that sort of thing.  There used to be some really great stuff back in the T5 days where a raid drop was a component, a max level guild purchase for the recipe, and the result was a fabled quality item  (Yew bows, for instance).  </p><p> Basically though, the game has been around long enough that anything but consumables has a very limited steady state demand.  Non-consumables (armor, weapons, furniture) have an inherent limit in the demand that is determined in large part by the amount of new players or alts being leveled up.  Long term, that demand will diminish with notable spikes..ie make a ton of T2-T3 armor when a new race is made available and all the people trying the new race will buy it up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>JeffBship wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically though, the game has been around long enough that <b>anything but consumables has a very limited steady state demand</b>.  Non-consumables (armor, weapons, furniture) have an inherent limit in the demand that is determined in large part by the amount of new players or alts being leveled up.  Long term, that demand will diminish with notable spikes..ie make a ton of T2-T3 armor when a new race is made available and all the people trying the new race will buy it up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> And therein lies the crux of the problem with outfitting. Hehehehe. This is why I've been posting that outfitters need something consumable and of value to offer adventurers. I also wouldn't mind getting the ability to make ammo back, but I don't think that's going to happen either. <sighs>

[JeffBship]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Deson wrote: <p>Let's see now: Tailors can fill up to 17 slots. Armorers can fill up to 8 slots. Weaponsmiths can fill up to 2 slots. <i>That</i> is why I said that armorers have it worse than tailors and that weaponsmiths have it worst of the three. It's a demand issue. </p></blockquote><p> Spot on analysis there, Sapph.</p><p>As an example, I remember in the last couple of months maybe two or three times that guildies or friends or anyone else has requested I make some armor.  It's been so long since anyone has requested weaponsmithing that I don't even remember the last time.</p>

[Deson]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JeffBship wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically though, the game has been around long enough that <b>anything but consumables has a very limited steady state demand</b>.  Non-consumables (armor, weapons, furniture) have an inherent limit in the demand that is determined in large part by the amount of new players or alts being leveled up.  Long term, that demand will diminish with notable spikes..ie make a ton of T2-T3 armor when a new race is made available and all the people trying the new race will buy it up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> And therein lies the crux of the problem with outfitting. Hehehehe. This is why I've been posting that outfitters need something consumable and of value to offer adventurers. I also wouldn't mind getting the ability to make ammo back, but I don't think that's going to happen either. <sighs></blockquote>Wouldn't count it out. Even a good number of woodworkers not only questioned the change but seem indifferent to losing thrown ammo. Ilucide and now Domino have both mentioned it as well. It's a really good idea and could help offset some of the slot service issues.

[JeffBship]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is why I've been posting that outfitters need something consumable and of value to offer adventurers. </blockquote><p>I'd love to see some sort of Adornment type of thing of limited use...say a drop from a high end zone gets a resource that a Armorer can make into an armor thing which adds 100 mitigation to a piece of armor for say 30min.  Same for weaponsmiths...call it "razor honed edge" or something and the weapon does an extra 20dps for 30min.  In the software writing mechanics (if any devs are reading this) it would simple be a blessing with different text.</p><p>Poof...consumables for armorers and weaponsmiths which are in high demand <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>JeffBship wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Let's see now: Tailors can fill up to 17 slots. Armorers can fill up to 8 slots. Weaponsmiths can fill up to 2 slots. <i>That</i> is why I said that armorers have it worse than tailors and that weaponsmiths have it worst of the three. It's a demand issue. </p></blockquote><p> Spot on analysis there, Sapph.</p><p>As an example, I remember in the last couple of months maybe two or three times that guildies or friends or anyone else has requested I make some armor.  It's been so long since anyone has requested weaponsmithing that I don't even remember the last time.</p></blockquote><p>Hehehe. Before GU24, my weaponsmith would get orders for several thousand shurikens and throwing knives each week. She'd spend hours banging out soft metals into ornaments and hard metal into blades, and making verious other bits and pieces. Then she'd finally be able to make the final combines and send them off. She got an actual weapon order maybe once a week or so.</p><p>After GU24, she got requests to make ammo but had to refer them to a woodworker. That beleaguered crafter later sent me mail expressing how... erm... unhappy he was with his sudden influx in business for what he considered mind-numbing menial crafting (i.e. he <i><b>hated</b></i> making ammo). She got an order to make a weapon maybe once a month, twice a month tops. Most times, she never saw a weapon order, and so her weaponsmithing went by the wayside and is now collecting dust and cobwebs.</p><p>My guildmates often hear me refer to the days that a weaponsmith could make ammo as their "glory days." If Domino is considering the return of ammo to weaponsmiths, then I may just hold off on respeccing her to woodworker. I'll be patient and wait to see what comes down the line. </p>

[OmniDrac]

The problem with removing ammo from woodworker is that no one likes to have items removed from their repertoire.  Even if your friend did not like to take ammo order, there are plenty of woodworkers that do.   As such, a better solution is to create a new item that a Weaponsmith can make, and not request what someone else can make.  I currently have 70 Jeweler, 30 Carpenter, 30 Weaponsmith and 6 x 40 of the rest.  I see the major difference in each and I know that Domino is doing her best to figure out what would be the most desirable and profitable to add to each of these classes.   The problem is getting those things added and at the same time make then unique enough that you are not saying...hmm that is something a Chemist should be doing and not a Weaponsmith.  Fun times for Domino....send her cookies.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>OmniDrac wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fun times for Domino....send her cookies. </blockquote> Send her chocolate. Cookies won't cure the ills she has to put up with. <grins>

[Rast]

<p>The problem with mastercrafted vs treasured/legendary is more than just slots filled, it is also a cost issue.</p><p>Ebon armor, for just slightly over treasured stats, can cost upwards to 10-20x the treasured pieces to make, let alone make any profit on it.  Cobalt isn't much better and Xegonite, while cheaper than the previous two tiers, still runs about 2-3x treasured cost.</p><p>Add all of that to the fact that in T7, you can get the blooddrenched set from Xhorroz while working on the claymore (it isn't as good, but it's basically free), the demand for this armor is basically nil.</p><p>The cost of the upgrade simply does not jive with the amount of the upgrade you get.  As an armorer, I've actually referred people to 'cheap' treasured items rather than having them go out of their way (and cost) for feysteel.  Ebon is the first tier I think the cost 'could' be worth it, if you are on a server where ebon isn't going for 1.5p each.  Cobalt is still solid comparitively and xegonite, while it missed alot of the nerfing other armors got in LU24, is still weak armor.</p>

[Sapphirius]

Unfortuantely, the cost of mastercrafted items is something controlled entirely by the player base and not SOE. If cost is being cited as an issue for mastercrafted items, then those complaining need only look at themselves for the blame of its current state. My warden, fury, templar all wore T7 mastercrafted because they harvested for the items. My monk will wear T7 mastercrafted becuse she too harvested for the rares. If they'd had to buy the rares, they would never have gotten it. They'd have made do with treasured drops instead.

[Raveller]

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its sad but true but MC is mostly junk </p></blockquote><p> I wouldn't call it junk. For T2 to T6, Mastercrafted armor is very good for levels n2 to about n6 or n7. Mastercrafted weapons are very, very good because they're imbued, and procs are nice. While there are select Legendary and Fabled jewelry pieces that are worth chasing after, Mastercrafted jewelry is excellent for the most part. Since most of us will not have all skills at Master level while leveling up, Adept 3s are great.</p><p>Of course, that all changes once you're raiding endgame content. Mastercrafted is not junk, it does have a useful purpose in the game. It's just not as nice as it used to be.</p>

[Raveller]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Let's see now: Tailors can fill up to 17 slots. Armorers can fill up to 8 slots. Weaponsmiths can fill up to 2 slots. <i>That</i> is why I said that armorers have it worse than tailors and that weaponsmiths have it worst of the three. It's a demand issue. </p></blockquote><p>Not exactly. There are variables that you are not considering, or are you only looking at T7? Weaponsmiths, those who choose to practice their trade rather than just complaining about not being ubah, can actually make a lot of coin. For many classes, there may be only one or two weapon slots to fill, however it usually takes many more weapons to do so, assuming the player want's to keep his skills up.</p><p>For my Dirge, I carry four weapons: one DW pierce, ond DW slash, one 1H pierce and one 1H slash. I would expect some of the tank classes to carry even more than that: one 2H pierce, one 2h slash, one 2H crush, one 1H pierce, one 1H slash, one 1H crush. I'm not sure how the change to DW will afftect this. It will probably be bad news for weaponsmiths depending on how the itemization works out.</p><p>Are you counting backpack slots for your tailor? Those items are good sellers, but since they're not attunable they also get handed down to alts and rebrokered. Also, any character with any amount of strength is using as many strongboxes as he can carry. </p>

[Rast]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortuantely, the cost of mastercrafted items is something controlled entirely by the player base and not SOE. If cost is being cited as an issue for mastercrafted items, then those complaining need only look at themselves for the blame of its current state. My warden, fury, templar all wore T7 mastercrafted because they harvested for the items. My monk will wear T7 mastercrafted becuse she too harvested for the rares. If they'd had to buy the rares, they would never have gotten it. They'd have made do with treasured drops instead.</blockquote><p> Well, when treasured stuff is going for 7-15g each and the cheapest rares going for 3x that at minimum, cost HAS to be a factor.  I know several times I've chosen to not get MC gear while leveling because of the cost of Steel or Feysteel.  For the amount of time you spend in the tier, spending 7p for metal for the armor just isn't worth it...  I'd rather have the 7p to buy my ad1s and treasured gear and save the rest for when I had to have the better gear <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I know Jal had MC gear at 46, 52 and 62, but that is only because I was an armorer, looking back with what I know now, I'm not so sure I would of spent the 3.5p on the xegonite to make it.</p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JeffBship wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically though, the game has been around long enough that <b>anything but consumables has a very limited steady state demand</b>.  Non-consumables (armor, weapons, furniture) have an inherent limit in the demand that is determined in large part by the amount of new players or alts being leveled up.  Long term, that demand will diminish with notable spikes..ie make a ton of T2-T3 armor when a new race is made available and all the people trying the new race will buy it up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> And therein lies the crux of the problem with outfitting. Hehehehe. This is why I've been posting that outfitters need something consumable and of value to offer adventurers. I also wouldn't mind getting the ability to make ammo back, but I don't think that's going to happen either. <sighs></blockquote><p> <i>Ahem</i>. <points to this post></p><p>I am not complaining about not being "ubah." I am pointing out that currently, outfitters don't have a lot of offer adventurers, <i>especially</i> weaponsmiths and armorsmiths, and if you'd look, you'd see numerous other armorsmiths and weaponsmiths complaining about the <i>exact same</i> thing. It's not just me saying this.</p>

[Raveller]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortuantely, the cost of mastercrafted items is something controlled entirely by the player base and not SOE. If cost is being cited as an issue for mastercrafted items, then those complaining need only look at themselves for the blame of its current state. My warden, fury, templar all wore T7 mastercrafted because they harvested for the items. My monk will wear T7 mastercrafted becuse she too harvested for the rares. If they'd had to buy the rares, they would never have gotten it. They'd have made do with treasured drops instead.</blockquote><p> Well, when treasured stuff is going for 7-15g each and the cheapest rares going for 3x that at minimum, cost HAS to be a factor.  I know several times I've chosen to not get MC gear while leveling because of the cost of Steel or Feysteel.  For the amount of time you spend in the tier, spending 7p for metal for the armor just isn't worth it...  I'd rather have the 7p to buy my ad1s and treasured gear and save the rest for when I had to have the better gear <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I know Jal had MC gear at 46, 52 and 62, but that is only because I was an armorer, looking back with what I know now, I'm not so sure I would of spent the 3.5p on the xegonite to make it.</p></blockquote>I harvest my own rares, which means they're free (except for the game time it takes for me to harvest them).

[Rast]

For my tank (lvl 70 paladin) I've never used crushing or piercing and after I bought a MC cobalt weapon, I've never again bought a weaponsmith made weapon.  Now, if I can get the book and material, I'll happily commission Sapphy to make my folded scale blade, but that isn't what I would call a great likelihood <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rast]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortuantely, the cost of mastercrafted items is something controlled entirely by the player base and not SOE. If cost is being cited as an issue for mastercrafted items, then those complaining need only look at themselves for the blame of its current state. My warden, fury, templar all wore T7 mastercrafted because they harvested for the items. My monk will wear T7 mastercrafted becuse she too harvested for the rares. If they'd had to buy the rares, they would never have gotten it. They'd have made do with treasured drops instead.</blockquote><p> Well, when treasured stuff is going for 7-15g each and the cheapest rares going for 3x that at minimum, cost HAS to be a factor.  I know several times I've chosen to not get MC gear while leveling because of the cost of Steel or Feysteel.  For the amount of time you spend in the tier, spending 7p for metal for the armor just isn't worth it...  I'd rather have the 7p to buy my ad1s and treasured gear and save the rest for when I had to have the better gear <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I know Jal had MC gear at 46, 52 and 62, but that is only because I was an armorer, looking back with what I know now, I'm not so sure I would of spent the 3.5p on the xegonite to make it.</p></blockquote>I harvest my own rares, which means they're free (except for the game time it takes for me to harvest them). </blockquote> again, why?  You can make far more money simply selling the rares and buying (only slightly) worse treasured gear?  Heck, for one rare, you can buy a couple pieces and be faster to make your others.  Cost is a factor here, whether you harvest the rares or buy them, the cost (in opportunity factors) is still there, even if it doesn't directly impact your cashflow.

[Sapphirius]

<p>Hehehe. It's the end game that's hurting outfitters most, as has always been the case.</p>

[Rast]

<p>you are very correct...  I did my first raid in MC gear (DT of all places...)  Died 14 times and had to spend most of the evening in defensive stance to even keep that number to that level.  I've since replaced nearly every piece of MC gear I had (I have a pair of bracers yet...  [Removed for Content] things won't drop) and a couple pieces of jewelery that are still MC.  But the rest is legendary or KoS fabled.</p><p>Given my current gear (and what I hope to get going foward) I probably won't even be touching T8 mastercrafted (It'd be a stretch now, let alone after I upgrade further)</p>

[Sapphirius]

Hehehehe. Yeah, I'd held off on adorning any of my gear until I knew it was something that I would keep for a long time. I adorned my Sacred Grove pieces, and I'm planning to adorn my Shoulderpads of Suffering, but I'm not adorning my tunic, pants, or boots. A goodly amount of my jewelry is also remaining unadorned until I come across something that will last me through to end-game T8.

[Rast]

I did my boots, legs and shoulders, but I needed the adornments for HPs and they were all treasured ones, so I'm not too worried.  Probably won't put much more on until I get my EoF fabled though (if I can manage to nab it, that is)

[EQTTEQ]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hehehe. It's the end game that's hurting outfitters most, as has always been the case.</p></blockquote><p> Yes, it is. But is it set in stone that a T8 crafter must make gear for a T8 adventurer? Do we have to compete with the toughest raid zones for customers?</p><p>Just a thought, but... what if T7 and T8 could make extrordinary gear for T5 and T6. They could make gear for that period when players are getting ready for the raid zones, and know the importance of good gear.</p>

[Sapphirius]

I really like that thought. It would give outfitters at end game something to look forward to.

[Rijacki]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>you are very correct...  I did my first raid in MC gear (DT of all places...)  Died 14 times and had to spend most of the evening in defensive stance to even keep that number to that level.  I've since replaced nearly every piece of MC gear I had (I have a pair of bracers yet...  [I cannot control my vocabulary] things won't drop) and a couple pieces of jewelery that are still MC.  But the rest is legendary or KoS fabled.</p><p>Given my current gear (and what I hope to get going foward) I probably won't even be touching T8 mastercrafted (It'd be a stretch now, let alone after I upgrade further)</p></blockquote> If DT (Death Toll) was an "entry" raid zone for T7, then I would be aghast.  But, there is progression in raid zones like any other thing in the game.  You're not really expected to hold your own in DT until you've spent time in "lentry" KOS raid zones (like Labs) not only learning some of the intricacies of KoS raiding (too many hit points and lots of stuff kicks) but also obtaining gear.  If you have raid gear from the highest/hardest zones of a previous tier, it should make the entry point higher and easier.  If you have normal adventure gear, which does include mastercrafted, then you should start in the "entry" zones and work your way deeper. No, mastercrafted does not "compete" with drops from DT or even the Labs or Lyceum or any other -raid- zone, nor can it be a substitute for having gotten at least somewhat geared up in "entry" raids for a tier.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, mastercrafted does not "compete" with drops from DT or even the Labs or Lyceum or any other -raid- zone, nor can it be a substitute for having gotten at least somewhat geared up in "entry" raids for a tier. </blockquote> But then, mastercrafted wasn't meant to compete with raid gear either.

[FoxRiverRanger]

<cite>EQTTEQ wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hehehe. It's the end game that's hurting outfitters most, as has always been the case.</p></blockquote><p> Yes, it is. But is it set in stone that a T8 crafter must make gear for a T8 adventurer? Do we have to compete with the toughest raid zones for customers?</p><p>Just a thought, but... what if T7 and T8 could make extrordinary gear for T5 and T6. They could make gear for that period when players are getting ready for the raid zones, and know the importance of good gear.</p></blockquote><p>Crafters should compliment the toughest raid zones.  This is why I have repeatedly requested that advanced recipes be removed from drop tables and NPC trainers be added.  </p><p>Grinding writs to earn faction with the trainers would give the crafter a goal for which to strive while leveling, without flooding the market.  If the NPCs were presented in a progression, (one must finish gaining faction with a legendary trainer before he gives an access type quest to a fabled trainer - even if that quest is only "Here take this letter of introduction to your new trainer";) then a crafting end-game could exist that allows for a crafter to differentiate themselves based on crafting effort.</p><p>At level cap, earning the most advanced recipes would give the crafter something for which to strive beyond broker sales.  After the level cap is raised, these training writs would carry the new crafter into the next tier.  As the raiders are gearing up and advancing through their progression earning primary components, so to would the crafter be advancing through a parallel progression.  By coming together the dropped components can be crafted into top quality gear without violating itemization.</p><p>As long as some of the droped components are tradeable a market will develop allowing crafters to offer product beyond the n2 level on the open market.  If itemization requires the previous tier's fabled to exceed the new tier's mastercrafted, crafters will not sell mastercrafted to those adventurers that raid.  If itemization requires the previous tier's legendary to equal or exceed the new tier's mastercrafted, crafters will not sell mastercrafted to those adventurers that run end-game heroic instances.</p><p>Crafters need new end-game content if this much time is going to pass between level-cap raises.  </p>

[Deson]

<cite>EQTTEQ wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hehehe. It's the end game that's hurting outfitters most, as has always been the case.</p></blockquote><p> Yes, it is. But is it set in stone that a T8 crafter must make gear for a T8 adventurer? Do we have to compete with the toughest raid zones for customers?</p><p>Just a thought, but... what if T7 and T8 could make extrordinary gear for T5 and T6. They could make gear for that period when players are getting ready for the raid zones, and know the importance of good gear.</p></blockquote>Wouldn't work. Crafting has to work to maintain some equity between those in a tier and those already past it. It would be grossly unfair to an up and coming t5-6 crafter to be marginalized in their peak market because t7-8 players are making gear that they simply have no shot at.  It would be akin to when imbues were x9- no imbueable gear before that level would be ordered/bought. Any improvements for a tier should be attainable by anyone with access to it, anything other than that starts to push a "rush to end-game" mentality that just doesn't fit crafting well.

[Raveller]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortuantely, the cost of mastercrafted items is something controlled entirely by the player base and not SOE. If cost is being cited as an issue for mastercrafted items, then those complaining need only look at themselves for the blame of its current state. My warden, fury, templar all wore T7 mastercrafted because they harvested for the items. My monk will wear T7 mastercrafted becuse she too harvested for the rares. If they'd had to buy the rares, they would never have gotten it. They'd have made do with treasured drops instead.</blockquote><p> Well, when treasured stuff is going for 7-15g each and the cheapest rares going for 3x that at minimum, cost HAS to be a factor.  I know several times I've chosen to not get MC gear while leveling because of the cost of Steel or Feysteel.  For the amount of time you spend in the tier, spending 7p for metal for the armor just isn't worth it...  I'd rather have the 7p to buy my ad1s and treasured gear and save the rest for when I had to have the better gear <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I know Jal had MC gear at 46, 52 and 62, but that is only because I was an armorer, looking back with what I know now, I'm not so sure I would of spent the 3.5p on the xegonite to make it.</p></blockquote>I harvest my own rares, which means they're free (except for the game time it takes for me to harvest them). </blockquote> again, why?  You can make far more money simply selling the rares and buying (only slightly) worse treasured gear?  Heck, for one rare, you can buy a couple pieces and be faster to make your others.  Cost is a factor here, whether you harvest the rares or buy them, the cost (in opportunity factors) is still there, even if it doesn't directly impact your cashflow.</blockquote>I do sell some rares. Harvesting the lowbie zones with a level 70 character produces more rares than I can use for my alts. That's how I fund my Masters habit.

[Rast]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>you are very correct...  I did my first raid in MC gear (DT of all places...)  Died 14 times and had to spend most of the evening in defensive stance to even keep that number to that level.  I've since replaced nearly every piece of MC gear I had (I have a pair of bracers yet...  [I cannot control my vocabulary] things won't drop) and a couple pieces of jewelery that are still MC.  But the rest is legendary or KoS fabled.</p><p>Given my current gear (and what I hope to get going foward) I probably won't even be touching T8 mastercrafted (It'd be a stretch now, let alone after I upgrade further)</p></blockquote> If DT (Death Toll) was an "entry" raid zone for T7, then I would be aghast.  But, there is progression in raid zones like any other thing in the game.  You're not really expected to hold your own in DT until you've spent time in "lentry" KOS raid zones (like Labs) not only learning some of the intricacies of KoS raiding (too many hit points and lots of stuff kicks) but also obtaining gear.  If you have raid gear from the highest/hardest zones of a previous tier, it should make the entry point higher and easier.  If you have normal adventure gear, which does include mastercrafted, then you should start in the "entry" zones and work your way deeper. No, mastercrafted does not "compete" with drops from DT or even the Labs or Lyceum or any other -raid- zone, nor can it be a substitute for having gotten at least somewhat geared up in "entry" raids for a tier. </blockquote><p>I know DT isn't an entry raid zone, it just happened to be my first raid zone (my first raid period in fact).  I was more or less an after thought and was only invited because the raid stole my guildmates for the raid <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Got a pair of boots and a taste for raiding out of it, so it wasn't a complete loss <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Raveller]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hehehe. It's the end game that's hurting outfitters most, as has always been the case.</p></blockquote>This is not SWG. Unlike (pre-nuked) SWG, this game always has had and always will have a great abundance of looted and quested gear. Unfortunately many players who have no interest in playing MMORPGs became involved in SWG and the crafting system there and think that every MMO with a crafting system should have a crafting system that is as intricate as the SWG crafting system and that the crafting system in any MMO should have the same importance to the overall game as the crafting system in SWG had. These assumptions are unfounded, ill-advised, and very misleading. The SWG crafting system was unique and an aberration. Don't look for that to appear in any MMORPG again. Ever. Players may find entertaining and engaging virtual crafting in other virtual on-line entertainment options, such as Second Life, but don't expect to ever again find that in an MMORPG. With that said, crafting in EQ2 is a simple subgame, and it never was nor ever will be anything more than that. The items produced by crafters are merely a supplement to the rest of the game. The most important gear slots are filled with ubah looted and quested items. That is how the game is designed. The issues that both outfitters and scholars face in the endgame are the direct result of the fact that there is an endgame. A level cap increase is way overdue and given that most players are fully equipping their mains in Fabled and getting fully Mastered, I doubt that there will be a great demand for Mastercrafted T8 gear once the level cap is raised. (Unless Domino has something sneaky planned.) This does not mean that all Mastercrafted T7 gear is worthless, that there are no players who want Mastercrafted T7 gear, or that there are not situations where Mastercrafted T7 gear is not more desirable than Legendary or even Fabled gear. Player crafting is a tiny little niche in MMORPGs. In EQ2, it is entirely possible for players to have fun playing the game and never purchase any player made items. Ever. All that is required for that is a willingness to always join whatever PUG you find, since even a poorly equipped group can plow through all but the most challenging content. And by the time that crappily equipped group reaches the challenging content, they'll already have picked up plenty of good gear from actually playing the game. None of this can be changed to appease the tiny portion of the subscriber base that thinks EQ2 should be all about crafting, because doing so would draw the ire of the vast majority of the subscriber base that couldn't give a tinker's [I cannot control my vocabulary] about player crafting.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hehehe. It's the end game that's hurting outfitters most, as has always been the case.</p></blockquote>The issues that both outfitters and scholars face in the endgame are the direct result of the fact that there is an endgame. A level cap increase is way overdue and given that most players are fully equipping their mains in Fabled and getting fully Mastered, I doubt that there will be a great demand for Mastercrafted T8 gear once the level cap is raised. (Unless Domino has something sneaky planned.) This does not mean that all Mastercrafted T7 gear is worthless, that there are no players who want Mastercrafted T7 gear, or that there are not situations where Mastercrafted T7 gear is not more desirable than Legendary or even Fabled gear. </blockquote><p>Ummm. OK, so you just repeated what I said, but in a long-winded round-about way.</p><p>I'm not sure why you chose to quote me, but if you'll actually read the whole thread, you'll see that I never said mastercrafted armor was worthless. In fact, I've been saying that it isn't as bad as people think, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's more desireable than fabled. That would be a fallacy.</p>

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately many players who have no interest in playing MMORPGs became involved in SWG and the crafting system there and think that every MMO with a crafting system should have a crafting system that is as intricate as the SWG crafting system and that the crafting system in any MMO should have the same importance to the overall game as the crafting system in SWG had. These assumptions are unfounded, ill-advised, and very misleading. The SWG crafting system was unique and an aberration. Don't look for that to appear in any MMORPG again. Ever. Players may find entertaining and engaging virtual crafting in other virtual on-line entertainment options, such as Second Life, but don't expect to ever again find that in an MMORPG. With that said, crafting in EQ2 is a simple subgame, and it never was nor ever will be anything more than that. The items produced by crafters are merely a supplement to the rest of the game. /snip Player crafting is a tiny little niche in MMORPGs. In EQ2, it is entirely possible for players to have fun playing the game and never purchase any player made items. Ever. All that is required for that is a willingness to always join whatever PUG you find, since even a poorly equipped group can plow through all but the most challenging content. And by the time that crappily equipped group reaches the challenging content, they'll already have picked up plenty of good gear from actually playing the game. None of this can be changed to appease the tiny portion of the subscriber base that thinks EQ2 should be all about crafting, because doing so would draw the ire of the vast majority of the subscriber base that couldn't give a tinker's [I cannot control my vocabulary] about player crafting. </blockquote>I don't agree with this at all. This game billed crafting as a stand-alone system worthy of playing through without ever adventuring. They made *design* decisions that took us away from that, but it was nothing more than that. They *chose* to take the game that way instead of devoting resources to do it right. The fact that the TS forums has *always* had as many posts as any other forum on the entire board speaks volumes to the viability of a rich and robust crafting system working in any game willing to afford it the space at the design table.

[Terron]

<cite>FoxRiverRanger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Crafters should compliment the toughest raid zones.  This is why I have repeatedly requested that advanced recipes be removed from drop tables and NPC trainers be added. </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">Advanced recipes work OK as drops.  NPC trainers might work for some recipes beyond that. </span> </p> <p>Grinding writs to earn faction with the trainers would give the crafter a goal for which to strive while leveling, without flooding the market. </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">For it to work with advanced recipes to work you would need to be able to achieve sufficient faction to get the advanced recipes each level, which does not sit well with how the system currently works. </span></p> <p> If the NPCs were presented in a progression, (one must finish gaining faction with a legendary trainer before he gives an access type quest to a fabled trainer - even if that quest is only "Here take this letter of introduction to your new trainer"<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then a crafting end-game could exist that allows for a crafter to differentiate themselves based on crafting effort. </p> <><span style="color: #ff9900">Crafting quests to gain more recipes would be nice.</span> <span style="color: #ff9900">Making some high level, extra advanced recipes available for purchase only when you have sufficent faction would provide something of an endgame for crafting. If they used dropped components from endgame raids they could produce goods of legendary or fabled quality without obsoleting mastercrafted or getting too many complaints from adventurers. They would be a good replacement for the way relic and guild writ molds currently need a NPC to turn them into armour.</span> <p>Crafters need new end-game content if this much time is going to pass between level-cap raises. </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">Crafters need new content from T3/4 upwards, including the endgame.</span> </p> </blockquote>

[dartie]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So much time it seems is being devoted to revamping how we are going to make junk armor; which I still fail to see why the process needs to be changed  at all or how it will benefit the crafter. The new crafting process will  reduce the number of items made that can be sold to the vendor to compensate for the outragous prices of fuel. One will still have to spam counters which will take the same amount of time the only difference is if you fail you get your rare back. With the current system I never fail at pristine so getting a rare back is not an upgrade; in fact, if the new system is created like the "nest" system, I failed 3 times before I made a pristine product there, and that my friends is not an improvement it was frustrating and a waste of time. I don't see anything wrong with the crafting process it's the crafted products that have the problem. Revamping the crafting process will not make the items give more stats, miti, health, power etc when time needs to be spent on armor updates and new recipes. I have yet to read how a new tradeskill process will enchance tradeskills. I would really like to know how it will benefit the tradeskiller. Will it save time? Will it save money? As I stated it took longer due to failures no mater what I countered with in the nest and there will only be 2 items in that method that can be sold back to the vendor to recoop on fuel cost the final product and the product under it . So why spend so much time on a system that will NOT give any more benefits to the crafter ( in fact it will make the process more expensive and longer due to failures), when so many other things need to be addressed first? RARELY does any change benefit the player so if its not broke dont fix it. The tradeskill process is not broken; however, the items we produce are below standards and considered vendor trash and that needs to be fixed. </p></blockquote><p>I'm almost self-interested enough to bite my tongue, Steelblueangel, but your post made me grin so much that I'm going to share a 4-point response.</p><p>1) Like you, I don't understand all the fuss about the crafting process.  </p><p>2) Unlike you, I'm not dissatisfied by the quality of the goods TSers can make.  </p><p>3) Like you, I agree that the crafting community rarely stands together on an issue.  </p><p>4) Unlike you, I'm not bothered by that lack of unity, since it generally results in a status quo that seems fine to me.</p><p>Now I'll expand on these points:</p><p>1) As I've said in other posts, I don't think the crafting process is at all broken, and I cannot imagine what a "fixed" version of the process would look like.  The way we make items can (and almost certainly will) change, but I suspect that those who are looking for "fun" in the process of making items are looking in the wrong place.  My fun comes from running my shop--discovering which items sell well and which ones won't . . .determining whether it's worth paying 2.5 plat for advanced jeweler volume 44 . . . deciding whether to sell my scintillating dusts at 12 gp for a quick profit or leaving them on the broker at 22.5 g for more than a week.  You can add all the bells and whistles you like to the crafting process (events, random prizes, dancing naked women, etc.), but that process is never going to be anything but a component of a LARGER process that I find interesting.  </p><p>No matter what happens between my tailor and the loom and the RNG, the MAKING of goods is always going to be a player-vs.-artificial intelligence affair.  Only when we move to the broker and the other crafters who are trying to make TSing profitable do we reach the realm of Player-vs.-player--and that's where things inevitably become more interesting to me. </p><p>2) I've taken my fury through T6 (and a host of alts through T5) in mastercrafted gear--and had a blast the entire way.  The process of finding enough rares to make the armor or raising the money to buy the rares has always been fun and challenging for me, and the payoff for having crafters on hand who can deck out my adventurers in M/Ced, adorned gear is well worth the effort.  I'm too new to the game to know firsthand about the overpowered M/C gear that other players mention, but I see a substantial improvement between cheap treasured loot and a set of M/C gear.  I think the devs have done a pretty good job of balancing things.</p><p>3) One hates to disagree with Calthine, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone can make the argument that the crafting community stands together when it barely talks.  On this forum, I seem to see posts from the same dozen or so players, but my in-game experience is that scads (and I do mean SCADS) of EQ2 crafters check these forums less than once a month (if at all).  I think the folks who post here are generally civil and reasonable, but I also think that we are an extremely vocal MINORITY--and I hope that Domino doesn't stress too much about what we have to say here. </p><p>(Obviously, she did stress about it when we were able to confirm, on this board, that infusions of water weren't working.  The problem was corrected inside of 24 hours.  That's the sort of thing that I think she should listen to us about.  But I really don't like the idea of established members of the crafting community dictating sudden changes in the structure of the game.  My idea of "improving" the crafting process may not be anything like your idea of an "improvement."  I particularly like this part of your post to exemplify this point: </p><p>I would really like to know how it will benefit the tradeskiller. Will it save time? Will it save money? </p><p>Your thinking on this subject is EXACTLY like mine.  I don't care if the crafting process becomes more FUN--since my fun comes from working the broker.  Any suggestions I would make for improvement would be about making items more quickly and selling them more profitably.  I *love* working the broker, but I see crafting as a means to the end of outfitting my adventurers in the best gear possible so that they can solo increasingly challening opponents.  When I hear people say that they long for the return of subcombines, I shudder.  What are their motives for wanting the process to be more time-consuming?  Are they any "better" than my motives for wanting the process to be quicker?  </p><p>I haven't checked on the thread about the Nesting process, but it seems to me that one of Domino's main motives is to find a system that requires fewer tags for the game to keep up with.  What do I care about that?  Nothing.  Does that make her motives worse or better than mine?  It only makes her motives relevant to doing her job--while mine remain tied to playing a game.  </p><p>4) I think it's a good thing that the crafters of EQ2 don't (for the most part) engage each other in these forums.  If they did talk more, they might actually reach a consensus or two.  Then they might make demands.  Then Domino might have to implement changes.  Then there would be a constant renegotiating of the rules--and strategies for maintaining profitability would depend more on knowing what's coming down the pike in Beta than on working the economies of individual servers.  Don't get me wrong, I guess I could play (and even enjoy) that game too.  But I'm plenty addicted to the game I'm already playing.  So are lots of people who DON'T post on these forums.  Silence and a lack of a clear agenda for change aren't necessarily bad.  </p><p>So I reach a lot of the same conclusions as you, Steelblue, and some different ones for reasons that I hope you can understand. </p>

[Deson]

<cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>3) One hates to disagree with Calthine, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone can make the argument that the crafting community stands together when it barely talks.  On this forum, I seem to see posts from the same dozen or so players, but my in-game experience is that scads (and I do mean SCADS) of EQ2 crafters check these forums less than once a month (if at all).  I think the folks who post here are generally civil and reasonable, but I also think that we are an extremely vocal MINORITY--and I hope that Domino doesn't stress too much about what we have to say here. </p>4) I think it's a good thing that the crafters of EQ2 don't (for the most part) engage each other in these forums. If they did talk more, they might actually reach a consensus or two.  Then they might make demands.<b> </b>Then Domino might have to implement changes.  Then there would be a constant renegotiating of the rules--and strategies for maintaining profitability would depend more on knowing what's coming down the pike in Beta than on working the economies of individual servers.  Don't get me wrong, I guess I could play (and even enjoy) that game too.  But I'm plenty addicted to the game I'm already playing.  So are lots of people who DON'T post on these forums.  Silence and a lack of a clear agenda for change aren't necessarily bad. </blockquote>Just want to comment. Some of what she is pushing is indeed generated by the forums but a lot of it is generated by other feedback mechanisms including /feedback and her own desires as a dev(which tends to include business and work realities) . As a rule, message boards tend to have a fairly small percentage of players actually reading and posting on them but, they do still remain an invaluable tool for discussion and feedback.

[Domino]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>in fact, if the new system is created like the "nest" system, I failed 3 times before I made a pristine product there, and that my friends is not an improvement it was frustrating and a waste of time. </p><p>...</p><p>As I stated it took longer due to failures no mater what I countered with in the nest and there will only be 2 items in that method that can be sold back to the vendor to recoop on fuel cost the final product and the product under it . So why spend so much time on a system that will NOT give any more benefits to the crafter ( in fact it will make the process more expensive and longer due to failures) </p></blockquote>I'd just like to clarify something here.  When I compared the new proposal for crafting to the "Nest" style recipes, I was referring to the mechanism where only the final quality product would actually produce a product, and lower quality results return the primary component.  ONLY that part of the "Nest" recipes. The "Nest" recipes are actually different in some ways from normal recipes, primarily in that they're intentionally harder to make.  Whereas a normal crafted item requires you to build up a certain amount of progress in total to complete it, the recipes in the Nest require twice as much progress as a normal recipe to reach completion, thus resulting in a much longer crafting process.  That, and the fact you're not using your "normal" crafting arts but have to use the geomancy/weaving skill set that is different from your normal one and has its own different failure chances, both make crafting in the "Nest" more lengthy and difficult than normal crafting recipes.  This aspect of "Nest" crafting is NOT going to be applied to the new style normal crafting.  The amount of progress you require now to make a pristine item will remain identical.  You should not find the crafting any longer, shorter, or more full of failures than you do now.  The new crafting method will only be similar to the "Nest" recipes in that you don't get a finished product until you complete the fourth progress bar.  <cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote>(Obviously, she did stress about it when we were able to confirm, on this board, that infusions of water weren't working.  The problem was corrected inside of 24 hours.  That's the sort of thing that I think she should listen to us about.  </blockquote>Actually, while it was reported on these forums and I did happen to see it here and reply, it was also /bugged in game by somebody and showed up in my bug queue to fix that same day.  So, it would have been fixed regardless of whether anyone had posted it here. While I do read these forums regularly and find it useful to see what's on everybody's mind and how people feel about different aspects of the game, at the same time it's clear that only a small fraction of the crafting community are represented here.  Feel free to express your concerns and opinions here (appropriately to the forum rules of conduct, of course!) but any decisions that we make about the direction of the game and tradeskills within it will always be based on more factors than just who shouts loudest or more often on these forums.   A sentiment I see occasionally on the forums is "such-and-such got nerfed because of the whiners who kept posting about it".  This is clearly not the case, for at least one simple reason -- if we actually DID change things just based on who complained the loudest and most persistently, then soon players would learn that the best way to interact with developers was to complain loudly and frequently.  This is definitely not behaviour that we wish to encourage!  <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So our decisions are always based on a broader view of what's best for the game as a whole.  And if anyone feels inclined to continue flogging a dead horse by reiterating the same old complaints over and over, they will not be making it more likely for me to do what they want, in fact, they may find themselves thwapped with a rolling pin.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As with all things in life, there is a balance.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

[Raveller]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hehehe. It's the end game that's hurting outfitters most, as has always been the case.</p></blockquote>The issues that both outfitters and scholars face in the endgame are the direct result of the fact that there is an endgame. A level cap increase is way overdue and given that most players are fully equipping their mains in Fabled and getting fully Mastered, I doubt that there will be a great demand for Mastercrafted T8 gear once the level cap is raised. (Unless Domino has something sneaky planned.) This does not mean that all Mastercrafted T7 gear is worthless, that there are no players who want Mastercrafted T7 gear, or that there are not situations where Mastercrafted T7 gear is not more desirable than Legendary or even Fabled gear. </blockquote><p>Ummm. OK, so you just repeated what I said, but in a long-winded round-about way.</p><p>I'm not sure why you chose to quote me, but if you'll actually read the whole thread, you'll see that I never said mastercrafted armor was worthless. In fact, I've been saying that it isn't as bad as people think, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's more desireable than fabled. That would be a fallacy.</p></blockquote><p>Your post was a spring board.</p><p>This past weekend I checked the broker for alternatives before crafting some Mastercrafted armor for an alt. I looked first at Fabled gear on the broker, then at Legendary, then at Treasured and compared the available options to the Mastercrafted options. For that particular character, for that particular gear slot, the Mastercrafted gear was the best choice. Obviously there are Legendary and Fabled pieces in the loot tables that would be superior to the Mastercrafted piece, however those were not available for that character. The Fabled tag does not automatically mean more desirable 100% of the time.  </p>

[Sapphirius]

<p>Hehehehe. Yeah, a lot of the tradeable fabled has stats that are, in my warden's eyes, less than desirable, but in my monk's eyes, they're quite the gem. Different stats for different builds. It may look worse than mastercrafted to you, but to someone of a diferent class or build, it might be that shining star they were looking for. I've found that, in terms of gear, what is or isn't desireable is entirely relative to the person looking at it.</p><p>For example? The Jale Phlintoe's Wildfire Leggings... A lot of druids are dying over these pants. They just have to have them because of the awesome wisdom and the set bonus, never mind that the Jale's set is a maximum 6 piece bonus. You don't really need a 7th piece. My own personal opinion is that the Jale's leggings absolutely <i>suck</i>. They most certainly don't offer any stats that I would find desireable with the exception of the 28 wisdom. My own personal view is that the Leggings of Determined Growth are far superior in stats, power pool, resists, and effects. Heck, I think that even the relic druid legs and the Animist's leggings are better than the Jale's.</p><p>Just because <i>I</i> think the Jale's leggings are worthless doesn't mean that another druid will think the same.</p>