Idea for new death penality [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Gnae

06-22-2007, 05:24 AM

After much debate over corps runs and soul shards, etc, it seems the number one factor is that it takes lot's of time to recover the shard/corps. But that is the RISK bit. The reward is knowing you avoided death and won your kill/loot and survived without any nasty time sinks. The reasons it seems SOE got rid of soul shards is both a trend in philosophies and CS tickets which was too much hassle then it's worth for SOE to continue it. But in an attempt to think of a solution to bring both RISK and Reward back into balance I came up with this plan. When you die you will take the normal 10% eqip. hit as well as a small exp debt. You will then be zoned into a alternate plane of exsistance. Call it heaven, limbo, paradise whatever, it is the place of the dead. For evil races this would be a place of fire and hell hounds, a real sinners paradise. For good races it would be a place beauty. In this world would be some basic structures for visual appeal but overall nothing else. You would arrive without any gear only wearing what you had on in the character creation screen. There would be a soul merchant who could buy you out of this place. The first time you die you will be imprisoned for 1 minute. However if you die again within an hour it will become 2 minutes. If you die a third time in an hour it will be 5 min. You can be trapped without buying out or being ressurected for a total of 20 minutes. For every 3 levels you gain in adventuring you will receive a release shard (or whatever you call it) that is a get out of jail free card. This is a one time use shard that bails you out with no penalties except what we have now. If one of your party members rezes you, you spawn back into your body with no penalties except small exp hit and 10% on gear. If you wish to be released early you must pay the merchant there some coin. At higher level's you may spend some status points along with less coin to be released. if you buy out you are free with no penalties except exp hit (which is slightly greater then without buying out) and 10% on armor. Or you could make it no armor penality. If you stay your whole time you will be rezed with full gear back to the safe spot in the zone. The reason I think this will work is because it solves some fundimental issues about risk vs reward. A corps/shard run is a time sink to punish players (thus creating risk) for failure in persuit of their goals (reward). Without this risk the rewards often become trivial and we might as well be fighting grey mobs for experience. The biggest problems with corps runs is that a corps can get stuck, thus creating a CS issue. The other problems are not being able to reach your corps. With this system you don't HAVE stay in jail provided you have a shard, coin or get rezed. However if your out of those then you know death is a greater risk. This will appeal to the hard core who might play alone or in off hours. In the case of a group/raid wipe, the group is still around together but simply waiting it out. Again the positives are: <ul><li>Risk vs Reward balanced</li><li>Penality is time, which is most valuable to players</li><li>Option to buy out</li><li>Can be rezed out</li><li>New zone to explore - Limbo</li><li>No stuck corps/shards means no CS calls</li><li>Can provide that natural break you need with known amount of time of penality</li><li>Every 3 level's free rez</li></ul>Today's rez is simply a quick trip back to the group, but doesn't have that penality erasing feel like it used to. Used to be a rez was highly sought after. Now that anyone can rez a healer and thus rez everyone it seems rez will be a popular choice for those in limbo. I envision quests being given in limbo and perhaps other things to do for those trapped. It can be a penality but still with some fun in it. Comments?

Thunderthyze

06-22-2007, 06:00 AM

What use for gold would the denizens of "Limbo" have? Can't really see the lore aspect of this. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Otherwise, an intriguing idea. Would certainly make raiding interesting.

tebion

06-22-2007, 09:34 AM

just for nitpicking's sake, if you go there naked, where would you keep the money you need to buy you out? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> scnr <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Windowlicker

06-22-2007, 09:52 AM

My time is valuable. If this game starts to waste it any more then it already does, I wont' be interested in playing it.I'm sorry, but I'm really not a fan of any form of wasted time as a punishment for death. I'd be more open to a corpse run, because at *least* your doing something.Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.What happens if 24 people die in a raid? You've just developed all sorts of irratating problems. Now you have 24 people zoning, and 24 people with random problems (IE: Scaling timers).

KBern

06-22-2007, 10:04 AM

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>My time is valuable. If this game starts to waste it any more then it already does, I wont' be interested in playing it.I'm sorry, but I'm really not a fan of any form of wasted time as a punishment for death. I'd be more open to a corpse run, because at *least* your doing something.Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.</blockquote> QFE

Dasein

06-22-2007, 10:12 AM

How does this create a proper risk/reward relationship? What more are groups and raids risking over soloers? Seems to me this penalty has things backwards - soloers would likely take the biggest penalty, while groups and raids would take considerably fewer penalties. Additionally, what effect would a potentially large downtime have on gameplay? How many people would simply log off when faced with even a few minutes of being locked in a zone? How many groups would disband if their members were being held in this zone for varying amounts of time?

Althena

06-22-2007, 10:27 AM

Game's been out what... over 3 years... no thx to silly notions to change my gameplay thanks.

Guy De Alsace

06-22-2007, 10:32 AM

My idea:You die, take the usual 0.5% hit and equipment damage and then are rezzed by a player or revive. You have permanent rez sickness UNTIL you spend time meditating to your deity. At an altar in your home (takes least time) or using a holy symbol carried on you. Quality of the symbol indicates how quickly your rez sickness wears off. Multiple rez sickness effects will stack forcing you to eventually plead to your chosen deity to cure it!For those with no deity, rez sickness is permanent. However a representative of one of the deities will remove it at the cost of personal status points and gold or a large amount of gold as a donation.10 cumulative death effects will result in your toon becoming a shade for a week of in game time..cursed to wander the lands without being able to join in the fun but scaring hapless adventurers.

ArivenGemini

06-22-2007, 10:52 AM

Guy De Alsace wrote: <blockquote>My idea:You die, take the usual 0.5% hit and equipment damage and then are rezzed by a player or revive. You have permanent rez sickness UNTIL you spend time meditating to your deity. At an altar in your home (takes least time) or using a holy symbol carried on you. Quality of the symbol indicates how quickly your rez sickness wears off. Multiple rez sickness effects will stack forcing you to eventually plead to your chosen deity to cure it!For those with no deity, rez sickness is permanent. However a representative of one of the deities will remove it at the cost of personal status points and gold or a large amount of gold as a donation.10 cumulative death effects will result in your toon becoming a shade for a week of in game time..cursed to wander the lands without being able to join in the fun but scaring hapless adventurers. </blockquote> And since you can't begin worship of a god until level 20, you pray you dont die before then. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I dont think we need enhanced death penalties.. seriously, I am playing the game to have fun, not have my time wasted, not having to jump through extra hoops to deal with problems, not to have my alt given a "time out" and be unable to play for -any- amount of time..

KBern

06-22-2007, 10:59 AM

<cite>ArivenGemini wrote:</cite><blockquote> I dont think we need enhanced death penalties.. seriously, I am playing the game to have fun, not have my time wasted, not having to jump through extra hoops to deal with problems, not to have my alt given a "time out" and be unable to play for -any- amount of time.. </blockquote>Exactly. I really do not get the mentality of some people who want forced penalties for death. I am not sure who it affects them when others are not made to sit and stare at their screen for X amount of time after death, or have to run around the world, or any other number of penalties people pull out of their (bleeps).If you really want to make death more meaningful to yourself, there are a number of ways to do it without forcing that view for desired punishment on other people.You can gate home and run all the way back to where you died...if gate is not up, run home then run back. You can sit in front of your screen for a pre-determined set of time and twiddle your thumbs until your punishment is over.You can destroy a piece of gear each time you die (set up your own random system for that, maybe some dice).You can run down to the bottom of Sol Eye and attack Nagafen over and over (feel free to set your own limit on that).You do a load of laundry or clean your kitchen or bathroom each time you die.The penalty is up to you, but no need to force sado-masechism on others. Some of us simply play for fun and do not need artificial time sinks or penalties to stop us from dying, or make our play time "more meaningful".

Gnae

06-22-2007, 11:08 AM

without risk of some sort, there is no reward. I suppose we should all just get a lollypop when we die. I guess what some MMO players want is god mode, just no death all hack and slash. It's called playstation kids, go back there.

Siclone

06-22-2007, 11:11 AM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>My time is valuable. If this game starts to waste it any more then it already does, I wont' be interested in playing it.I'm sorry, but I'm really not a fan of any form of wasted time as a punishment for death. I'd be more open to a corpse run, because at *least* your doing something.Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.</blockquote> QFE</blockquote>what the heck is QFE? Can't we all stop being total computer geeks that we have to invent our own language that only other hard core puter geeks understand? give me a break, English works just fine.

KBern

06-22-2007, 11:13 AM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>My time is valuable. If this game starts to waste it any more then it already does, I wont' be interested in playing it.I'm sorry, but I'm really not a fan of any form of wasted time as a punishment for death. I'd be more open to a corpse run, because at *least* your doing something.Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.</blockquote> QFE</blockquote>what the heck is QFE? Can't we all stop being total computer geeks that we have to invent our own language that only other hard core puter geeks understand? give me a break, English works just fine. </blockquote>QFE has been used for a [Removed for Content] long time and *gasp* imagine using abbreviations or acronyms in a chat/text based game and forum.Quoted For EmphasisIt is not too hard to figure out.

Freliant

06-22-2007, 11:33 AM

... Then what about raid zones? Oops, sorry guys, I died, so I got zoned out... see you next week!Death is fine the way it is now. Dying is as annoying a penalty as there can be. Its a sign of weakness and/or that you did something wrong.

Looker1010

06-22-2007, 11:40 AM

Umm, I'm perfectly happy with the way things are now. I see no need nor reason to change things.

Ama

06-22-2007, 11:52 AM

Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>What use for gold would the denizens of "Limbo" have? Can't really see the lore aspect of this. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Otherwise, an intriguing idea. Would certainly make raiding interesting.</blockquote> Even limbo denizens must [Removed for Content] their horses. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Unfortunately I don't know if the death penalty will ever be fully reinstated. Right now it's sad to the point people will "death gate" out. Dieing you get .5% xp debt which can be removed in about 5-10 mobs. This is problem number 1 in that xp debt needs to be heavy and it needs to stick to the player like an extra appendage. Another problem is there is no true penalty for death except for 90% mana loss, -10% condition on items and a small sickness problem. Have to first and foremost they need to make it so xp debt doesn't take half your xp all your xp when your adventuring. Second they need to up xp debt so when you die you get 1.5% xp debt. In EQOA you died everything you could including training out of a zone to avoid getting killed. When you died it took nearly 300 mobs to get rid of all of your xp debt or atleast 3/4 of it and there was no xp removal. You couldn't camp out and have a portion of it gone over night. XP debt stuck with you till you got rid of it or it was a holiday where the developers removed the debt. Sadly what we have no maybe as good as a death penalty gets since SoE has to stay with current trends. They have to balance old school play vs new school play where people are lazy wanting everything on a silver platter. I was with many people who took the shard removal update kicking and screaming. Right now it deffinately feels as if there is no reason to fear death in EQ2. How the developers go about changing that is a dang good question.

Arwen0

06-22-2007, 11:58 AM

I have seen this topic come up several times now. They claim we MUST have a meaningful death penalty. After reading these posts I for one am very happy these people are not developers on this game! I happened to have been in a raid for Dreadwake a while back. I died, revived and got right back in the fight as did several of the other raid members. The death system of the OP would have caused the raid to completely wipe out which would have just po'd everyone. The shards system was removed for good reason. Vanguard has the shard system and look at the problems they are having with it. IMHO this is just beating a dead horse.

Dasein

06-22-2007, 12:24 PM

"Right now it's sad to the point people will "death gate" out." So?

Valdaglerion

06-22-2007, 12:49 PM

Here is an alternative - when you die an angel/demon appear based on your alingment. You have the following options - <ol><li>Revive - as it is now, .5% xp debt and 10% damage</li><li>Go to limbo - time penalty revive without gear damage or xp debt. Zoned to safe spot in zone you died in.</li><li>Blessed Revival - use a revive shard to have the angel/demon bring you back to life where you stand with .25%xp debt and 25% damage</li></ol>With regards to the OP's idea - I personally dont like the ideas of a timeout but there was something in this idea I saw which might appeal to raiding parties and groups, especially those in heavily populated zones where repeated death is imminent. This time out makes your game time a little longer but not by much... Consider this...(based on the OP's position)Raiding party wipes. Nobody has died in the last hour or so. Here is what happens -The entire party gets zoned to limbo, since its the first death, everyone is there for 1 minute. Whoopee! In 1 minute everyone gets zoned back to the safe spot in the zone they were in, for instances, well back to the beginning. But the interesting thing is the time penalty is offset by the reward full gear. Perhaps I misunderstood the OP but if the time penalty for death means I get zoned back to the zone I died in without a repair bill I am for it. Even with a max of 20 minutes, dying often means that amount of time in getting back and rebuffing. Would be awesome if we could rebuff and prepare while in limbo. Gives us something to do while we wait out it. Perhaps repeatable quest in limbo for the revive shards. Getting one every 3 levels is worthless. What happens when you get to the higher levels? And believe me, you will die more often than once every 3 levels, allow people to quest for these items (in limbo and perhaps as repeatable Deity writs as well to get the revive shards)My alternative gives people some options to choose from based on their playstyle and their time constraints. For those who will take the time penalty to avoid the repair bill, so be it. For those under time constraints, take the physcial penalities of debt and gear damage, for those with a revive shard, save the time of getting back to where you were but take the debt and gear damage to offset it (if you revived on your own you would have debt and gear damage, the additional offsets the time in getting back to where you were).Thoughts?

AWMascot

06-22-2007, 12:55 PM

I think its funny after being in EQ1 a few days after launch to now we still have people wanting the game to be more frustrating for people. Simply put if any of the death idea's would be put in many people would quit I know I would. I played EQ1 for like four years and have played almost every major MMO out there but you know what when I played a game like wow with no real death penalty I still had fun and still felt there was a risk and reward factor. People don't want to waste time and with many MMO choices if they feel like they are they will leave. The risk should come from fighting and adventuring not sitting around after you die so you can feel this game is hardcore. This isn't 1999 people don't care about that stuff anymore.

Brook

06-22-2007, 01:27 PM

While I do understand the OP's frustration, I dont think having different penalties for death than what they had before is the answer.I think one of my favorite aspects of the game was that there was a penalty involved with death and a corpse run added to the challenge. They were certainly headed in the right direction by adjusting group penalties and allowing you to recover shards at zone entrance, at least that is what I remember of it. I thought it was a really good feature of the game.Then for some reason they scrapped the whole thing, not to mention taking away class quest and good tutorials to learn how to control your toon for newer people. Maybe it was because the game was to hard for some and they were scared of loosing customers, but I know a good many people who have left because the game has become to easy. Now its easier to die to move around zones, the penalties are negligable, kill 1-2 mobs, debt is gone... Saddd.All they really needed to do was make instances with a timer not drop a shard. Some say that it was because CSR's were overloaded with complaints about getting shards back...I dont beleive that for a second, all they need to do is what they do now and paste the standard reply of I am so very sorry you are experiancing this difficulty, unfortunatly there is nothing we can do to help you, have a nice day.I am not bashing CSR's they have been very helpfull in my experiance "sometimes"Remember the days of Stormhold when the Torent would wander up to the top floor from the lower floor and depending on what was in the zone would start cleaning house? That to me was fun, you never knew if he was going to wander up while you were there. I enjoyed the heroic encounters on the newb islands and finding rares was just that "Rare"Why streamline the game? This is afterall The Shattered Lands.Would be so nice if the would create a server that had the old world stuff in it again, I know many didnt care for it, but many of us did. Sure it had its share of bugs but was a lot better than what we have now Imo. I think SOE might be suprised to find the number of people who would populate that server. I have nothing against those who like the way things are now, if they like it this way it wouldnt change the game for them but at the same time those of us who liked the hardmode would get what they wanted.

AWMascot

06-22-2007, 01:56 PM

I could see making a server for those who want it harder but I hate to say it but world of warcraft is the problem. That game has shown that people want it fun and easy and quick even though they don't always deliver that and it has many flaws. Many of the main MMO's I have played are in one way or another making the game more customer friendly. The day of the hardcore MMO is pretty much gone unless you are content with having a few thousand subscribers. The main problem is the average gamer is over thirty. That was a report recently done and while they may have grew up on the harder MMO's they now have families and jobs and don;t have the time. Also we have a new generation of gamers but they aren't use to the hardcore style at least not most of them and they like the format like wow and now eq2 has. I think its important to make sure the encounters and quests are fun and the will to play high. Worrying about how much you should suffer if you die is something you do if you are looking to lose customers not gain them.

Maryk

06-22-2007, 02:10 PM

I'm not sure what the answer is here. I agree in general with the OP...death has been extremely trivialized...mean practically nothing.In UO...when you died...your corpse could be looted...by either mobs or other toons. Which meant you took greater care in how you played...how you quested...how you fought. Adventuring was a bit more exciting when there was a risk that I could lose my Indestructable Silver Katana of Vanquish.Right now...death is meaningless...

ArivenGemini

06-22-2007, 02:32 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>without risk of some sort, there is no reward. I suppose we should all just get a lollypop when we die. I guess what some MMO players want is god mode, just no death all hack and slash. It's called playstation kids, go back there. </blockquote> Alright, fine.. lets go the blue glowy and realistic route.. You die? you are DEAD. period. no click the revive button and deal with XP debt.. you dont get another player to revive you in 1 game day? yeah, permenant dead.. no take backs, no transfering gear or money you get to roll a new alt and restart from level one. And the fun part is? you can do this for yourself.. let the rest of us play the game for fun..not to have our time wasted, not to have to pay meaningless penalties.. Shard runs? waste of time and effort.. all it did was cause delay in playing and cause people to leave the game.. its harsh, and not needed for a fun game. And for a final point, its not just RISK for reward, there is also the EFFORT angle... we make a reasonable effort, we get a reasonable reward.. there is no need to put an alt in time out just because some idiot in their group did something stupid.. thats a SURE way to kill this game.

doctorbow

06-22-2007, 03:14 PM

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is an alternative - when you die an angel/demon appear based on your alingment. You have the following options - <ol><li>Revive - as it is now, .5% xp debt and 10% damage</li><li>Go to limbo - time penalty revive without gear damage or xp debt. Zoned to safe spot in zone you died in.</li><li>Blessed Revival - use a revive shard to have the angel/demon bring you back to life where you stand with .25%xp debt and 25% damage</li></ol>With regards to the OP's idea - I personally dont like the ideas of a timeout but there was something in this idea I saw which might appeal to raiding parties and groups, especially those in heavily populated zones where repeated death is imminent. This time out makes your game time a little longer but not by much... Consider this...(based on the OP's position)Raiding party wipes. Nobody has died in the last hour or so. Here is what happens -The entire party gets zoned to limbo, since its the first death, everyone is there for 1 minute. Whoopee! In 1 minute everyone gets zoned back to the safe spot in the zone they were in, for instances, well back to the beginning. But the interesting thing is the time penalty is offset by the reward full gear. Perhaps I misunderstood the OP but if the time penalty for death means I get zoned back to the zone I died in without a repair bill I am for it. Even with a max of 20 minutes, dying often means that amount of time in getting back and rebuffing. Would be awesome if we could rebuff and prepare while in limbo. Gives us something to do while we wait out it. Perhaps repeatable quest in limbo for the revive shards. Getting one every 3 levels is worthless. What happens when you get to the higher levels? And believe me, you will die more often than once every 3 levels, allow people to quest for these items (in limbo and perhaps as repeatable Deity writs as well to get the revive shards)My alternative gives people some options to choose from based on their playstyle and their time constraints. For those who will take the time penalty to avoid the repair bill, so be it. For those under time constraints, take the physcial penalities of debt and gear damage, for those with a revive shard, save the time of getting back to where you were but take the debt and gear damage to offset it (if you revived on your own you would have debt and gear damage, the additional offsets the time in getting back to where you were).Thoughts?</blockquote> Yeah, my thought is, you are even further dumbing-down the death system by wanting to utilize it as a method to avoid the mender. So, basically, what you are saying is "Hey, instead of giving us a more meaningful death, simply dumb it down by giving us the option that if we WAIT a certain amount of time, I don't have to repair my armor"! BRILLIANT! No, no, and no. (following is not directed as a reply to that poster, just as my personal thoughts on the idea in general (so no I'm not attackin' you personally Vald.) First: If you want to convince me we need a more 'meaningful' death, you need to convince me WHY. Then maybe you can tell me what methods would be best. I get so tired of this dead-horse. Everyone on the side for 'meaningful' death whines "WHAAAAA, the only punishment is 10% armor repair b/c a level 70 w/ 100 AA doesn't even NEED xp" WHAAAAA. You know what? That xp debt REALLY hurt when I was and AM levelling up my newbies, and I EARNED the ability to not give a flying fock about it on my main. So SCREW YOU if you think more needs to be added, just because YOU feel you haven't been PUNISHED enough if you die. If you REALLY want to feel death punishment, I'll give you my Paypal info, and you can donate me a 5-spot every time you bite the bullet. Or hell, we can make a guild called Opus Dei, and go to the extreme, where when you die in game you have to tighten your cilice IRL a little... The penalty for too many deaths is passing out IRL from blood-loss. There ya go. Sarcasm aside: I will tell you why we DON'T need the soul shards, or corpse runs, or this god-awful 'purgatory' idea you apes dream up from time-to-time. Soul-shards. Mmmmkay, not AS bad as a corpse run. But guess what? Time sink. It is not YOUR job, NOR is it SoE's to put value on MY TIME. I have a RL, and guess what, if I die IN A [Removed for Content] GAME, I want to still be able to PLAY that game, with a MINIMUM of inconvenience. Shards were a little bit different, since they weren't really 'critical' to go get, but they were more of an annoyance than anything. They made multi-death penalty TOO strict until you got your shards, and even then, you have to actually run around and get them (there's that time sink again). Corpse runs are just out of the picture, period. Don't leave my crap lying in a field somewhere. I quit EQ1 back in the day b/c this was just an awful system, and you simply CANNOT rely on other people (for "corpse-drags", or to go out of their way to revive you. It doesn't happen, and people are just not that nice). (I came back and re-rolled after Shards were introduced... I'm pretty sure Dralth's shistuff is STILL at the bottom of LOiO somewhere... Here's why time-sinks like that will not happen: SoE is a BUSINESS, and they do not want to PISZ off the MAJORITY, because like me, people will quit. I don't want to have time-sinks forced on me as a punishment, except for camping for quests. With their lack of advertisement, the vocal MAJORITY here will drop their player-base like Paris Hilton's panties, and FURTHERMORE, we'll quit bringing our friends. Yeah, you guys can have your corpse runs. All 10 of you. on the same server. Good luck. What are you going to tell your friends? HEY, this is awesome! I found a great game! Really great content! And when you DIE!?!?! OMG, let's just say, WHOAH, holy CRAP, you'll spend like a year in purgatory, have to pay 500g to the geizer at the gate, and then Cher starts singing and you gotta get outta there before Oprah's minje goes on a killing spree! (come to think of it..... nah not as fun as it sounds at first). The point is, you guys are on a minority side of the fence b/c you are REMINISCING about a REALLY annoying aspect of EQ1. Leave it at that. When you really think about it, there's nothing WRONG with the death-system as it is, and SO FAR the #1 complaint I hear is people using it to 'gate' across zones. Yeah, so what. It still is not free. And really it just proves my point. People don't like time-sinks, and my EQ MONEY is infinitely less valueable than my RL TIME, and if SOE forced this crap on me, it would REALLY [Removed for Content] me off. Even if it was optional, and my group-member was some RP'er that died "Oh, I'm sorry I gotta hold you guys up, I died so I gotta get through purgatory blahblahblah". Yeah. He'd get /kick'd in a heartbeat. I've wasted enough time on this [Removed for Content] either way. It's not something that will get implemented. Ever. If you really thought about it you'd understand why. The risk/reward aspect that you're talking about is meant to be built INTO the reward structure of the game itself. There's no 'risk/reward' in death, because DEATH IS THE RISK when you're questing, xp'ing, instance-ing, etc. And as such, if you FAIL at something in the game, you DIE, usually spend about 5 min maybe? getting back to where you were, depending on travel times, etc. So, death being a brief 'risk' part of failure, what would the 'risk' part of death be? and... hmmm is there a reward in death? How does one 'fail' or 'succeed' at death anyway.... But bah, enough,I'm really just SO done discussing it. You Shard/Corpse-Run/Purgatory people pisz me off. There's a saying in engineering that if something seems overly complicated, it's probably wrong.

Kaalenarc

06-22-2007, 03:18 PM

<cite>ArivenGemini wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>without risk of some sort, there is no reward. I suppose we should all just get a lollypop when we die. I guess what some MMO players want is god mode, just no death all hack and slash. It's called playstation kids, go back there. </blockquote> Alright, fine.. lets go the blue glowy and realistic route.. You die? you are DEAD. period. no click the revive button and deal with XP debt.. you dont get another player to revive you in 1 game day? yeah, permenant dead.. no take backs, no transfering gear or money you get to roll a new alt and restart from level one. And the fun part is? you can do this for yourself.. let the rest of us play the game for fun..not to have our time wasted, not to have to pay meaningless penalties.. Shard runs? waste of time and effort.. all it did was cause delay in playing and cause people to leave the game.. its harsh, and not needed for a fun game. And for a final point, its not just RISK for reward, there is also the EFFORT angle... we make a reasonable effort, we get a reasonable reward.. there is no need to put an alt in time out just because some idiot in their group did something stupid.. thats a SURE way to kill this game. </blockquote> QFE x 100. I think the harshest death penalty would be immobilizing your character until you had read a few of the posts in the "death penalty" threads. Let it go. SOE isnt catering to cry babies" or "lazy players" - they are meeting the needs of what the vast majority of its customers want. There are games out there with uber harsh death penalties. Go play EVE and lose all your gear and some of your skills on death, go play Vanguard for a corpse run (and crippling lag) .But please, dont muck up my EQ2. The very LAST thing this game needs is time sinks. I invest hundreds of hours per year playing the game. No reward? It took me 6 MONTHS start to finish to complete the Claymore Quest. Upon killing Tarinax, I felt like I had won the Super Bowl. Who cares if I didnt have to waste extra time running after my corpse - thats just not fun.Lastly - corpse runs - are never, repeat N-E-V-E-R coming back. Let it go already. 'nuff said.

Lilj

06-22-2007, 03:21 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>without risk of some sort, there is no reward. I suppose we should all just get a lollypop when we die. I guess what some MMO players want is god mode, just no death all hack and slash. It's called playstation kids, go back there. </blockquote> No need to start lashing out to people and call them kids, just because they don't agree with you. May I suggest you get someone to slap you over the hands when you die, that way death will be felt hard and the reward will be no bruises! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> For some players the game is reward in itself. They don't need a penalty to be happy for the game. Please realise we human beings work differently. For some a death penalty will work well and they will enjoy the game more, and for others this will not work and make the game less enjoyable. Neither is right and neither is wrong. So please call of the flames, there is no need for them. You personally need a penalty to be happy, others don't. The devs hopefully knows what is best for the game and go by that.

AWMascot

06-22-2007, 03:59 PM

I played UO and first thinks first most people were in middle or high school during that time. They knew of nothing else and had all the time in the world. This isn't the mid 90's this is 2007 people are in their mid 20's early 30's and like I said even those who are teenagers never knew what UO was really like. You know how people who like Star wars act like 4 5 and 6 were the best films ever? Well they may be better than 1 2 3 but if you watch it as people watch movies now you see its not the greatest piece of cinema in the world. The same is with UO and EQ I think people romanticizes the past far to much and don't really remember the truth of the game. I will use EQ since more people may remember this. I know the real reason EQ1 was so awesome to me. It wasn't because it was hardcore or tough to play. It was because I was in college and every friend and person I knew played it. I was in a top end guild and we always had someone who knew the inside scoop. Death sucked in old EQ losing levels sucked, 4+ hour corpse runs sucked, losing your corpse sucked, waiting for a res or GM sucked. I could go on for hours. But guess what, since I was uber I knew like 20 cleric's and I had a guild roster of 60+ so I always had a group and a corpse run team. I would listen to music or talk on the phone and that made be think those 8 hour camping sessions for the golden efritee boots were worth it. But if you take away the friends, the uber guild, the spoiler sites and the guild and GM help you realize the game had a lot of problems. My point is this. Many people especially past the mid 20's won't have 20 friends playing EQ2, they won't have 12 hour days to play. So the game has to be fun enough that if you know no one you can still have fun. Once I hit 46+ and did the planes in EQ I didn't care much because by then I knew it all and death while still sucking wasn't that bad. But today you have to make a game and expect that everyone playing is alone and may or may not make friends in the game. If you make a game expecting people to be in a uber guild with 50+ friends and using spoiler sites then you are doomed to fail. This is why the death penalty was removed because more people play solo or duo with strangers than a large band of friends. The days of the 3+ hour corpse run 8+ hour raid times and 14 to 16 hour play times is gone for the majority of the MMO player base. Companies have to cater to the family, working, school going , casual player or they will be left behind.

Baccalarium

06-22-2007, 06:39 PM

Separate zone for death? Just add to the delay on the revive button would be no different and cost a lot less to implement. I'm used to it now, but I do think the death penalty is a bit weak, but then again once you've fought your way through a zone and then wipe, the death penalty putting you back at the start again is often more than enough to convince a group that they took on a challange too great. In raids the 10 tries and your out is usually effective, although there are various ways you can buy your way around that too. A very mild change, would be to bump the delay on the revive button to 30seconds to prevent most cases of the revive and rejoin the fight fast enough to prevent a wipe runs. Further I don't think I'd mind if revive sickness (which should be much harsher than rez sickness) lasted another 60 seconds beyong that, provided a graphical curse on your character. Perhaps a ball and 50ft chain on your leg that prevents mounts and encumbers you with 25%snare if trying to move more than the length of the chain. Not like a 25% snare really stops you from playing, just makes you wish you hadn't %^$%^ed up. The graphical curse lets all your buddies see your pain and either ridicule or commiserate with you. Reasonable chain length doesn't even prevent you from fighting. Let mendor remove it early if want, or perhaps a potion/item for those that want to buy their way out of death. But all of that really isn't that big of difference than existing.

Arwen0

06-23-2007, 12:18 AM

I will say it again. This is just beating a dead horse. I for one do NOT want a large time sink in a heavy death penalty! There are already more than enough time sinks in EQ2. If so many people prefer a shards death system, or some other means of imposing a heavy death penalty then Vanguard is your game, or is it? Vanguard is a ghost town to such an extent they are scaling back to just 4 servers. I for one stopped playing Vanguard because half the time when I died my tombstone would fall through the world and after waiting for 8 hours or more for a GM there was no way to get the exp back! I'm sure a lot of people felt the same way and quit for that very reason. IMHO there is no place for, nor do the majority of players want a heavy death penalty. End of story!

Josgar

06-23-2007, 12:32 AM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>snip For good races it would be a place beauty. In this world would be some basic structures for visual appeal but overall nothing else. You would arrive without any gear only wearing what you had on in the character creation screen. There would be a soul merchant who could buy you out of this place. snip </blockquote>We should be able to choose to stay there and have adventures <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> anyways to people who think things like this "waste time" and the game already "wastes too much time": EQ2 has like 0 time wasted... I can go almost anywhere in about 5 minutes (unless i zone slowly) I do like this feature though. Maybe what could happen is that you can choose to go to one of these places... and if you do your armor takes a 5% hit instead of a 10% hit or somthing. What are some current things that you consider time sinks? I dont really notice them at all.

Rigormortises

06-23-2007, 04:37 AM

Here is an idea. Bring back the shards with the timers but in town have a "graveyard" where you can buy your shard back if it gets lost or you cant get it or it gets stuck. For those of you who think you are wasting your time already, why do you even play this game? Go play a FPS. Death should be penelized, people should not use deaths as ports, thats not right, no penelty of death = no fear of death, you should be affraid to die and do everything in your effor to not die.... Not die on purpose so you can port, thats just wrong on every level. All games are time sinks, if you don't want that time sink, dont die.

Kaalenarc

06-23-2007, 06:45 AM

<cite>Rigormortises wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is an idea. Bring back the shards with the timers but in town have a "graveyard" where you can buy your shard back if it gets lost or you cant get it or it gets stuck. For those of you who think you are wasting your time already, why do you even play this game? Go play a FPS. Death should be penelized, people should not use deaths as ports, thats not right, no penelty of death = no fear of death, you should be affraid to die and do everything in your effor to not die.... Not die on purpose so you can port, thats just wrong on every level. All games are time sinks, if you don't want that time sink, dont die.</blockquote> They had that - it was a potion though. And you got rid of the need for a corpse run. The bottom line is, the vast majority of players dont want it. There is a very vocal minority, but in reality its just the way almost all mmo's are trending. You cater to the widest base. Thats what this is. You want a harsher death penalty? Delete your toon on every death , punish yourself by logging off for an hour. But corpse runs arent comin back. Ever.

Cerios

06-23-2007, 01:31 PM

While I don't really have a comment on this particular idea, I do think something needs to be done to up the challenge in this game because quite frankly its absurdly easy. Personally I would love to see a server on which all mobs are upped by one category (^ become the equivalent of ^^, which in turn become the equivalent of ^^^ etc...). In exchange for that increase in difficulty, players would see equipment reward statistics increased by 15% along with xp gain. Death penalty could be increased, hell the game could be made more challenging in many ways. I really think at some point this will have to happen because there are many players that are seeking a challenge and at some point someone is going to provide it. Even taking the instances on the regular servers and providing an "elite" equivalent where the above rules apply would be a massive improvement for a game that has become largely trivial.

Oakum

06-23-2007, 01:51 PM

Most don't even realize the the very satisfying feeling of not dying or even worry about dieing any more due to not having a shard or corpse to have to go get afterwards. The highs of achieving a hard kill are not as high and the lows failing and dieing are not as low unless someone's only concern is the KVD ratio and that is the only reason they play the game. Its probably too late to even think about bringing them back. The lack of shards/corpse runs has been pretty much ingrained into the players now. Even most of us who do remember the higher highs and lower lows are mostly more then willing to give them up in return for not having to take our sleep time in order to get our shards/corpse back when that untimely death happens a little while before we are ready to log for the night.

NiteWolfe

06-23-2007, 03:45 PM

I for one happen to like the system as it is now i dont want or need a death time sink!

Nakaru-Nitepaw

06-23-2007, 05:23 PM

It's bad enough i have to pay 4-5 gold every time i die to mend, i don't need having to wait 10 minutes before i can get back into the game, and i don't need delays. If you want a death effect, how about when you die a bunch of goblins and skeletons appear around you pointing and cackling at you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> HEHEHE! HAHAHA! You died!!! HEHEHE! HAHAHA! You died!!! HEHEHE! HAHAHA! You died!!!

prizm123

06-23-2007, 06:01 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote> Comments? </blockquote>its a crappy idea

Guy De Alsace

06-23-2007, 09:39 PM

Even though I submitted a semi-serious idea here I think the current death penalty is enough. Its enough of a setback to not interfere with the fun of the game and also allows for people to do dumb stuff for a laugh without worrying too much about the penalty.After all fun is the be all and end all of games like this.

Maroger

06-23-2007, 11:18 PM

melaine_dvarvensplitter

06-24-2007, 12:32 AM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>My time is valuable. If this game starts to waste it any more then it already does, I wont' be interested in playing it.I'm sorry, but I'm really not a fan of any form of wasted time as a punishment for death. I'd be more open to a corpse run, because at *least* your doing something.Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.</blockquote> QFE</blockquote>what the heck is QFE? Can't we all stop being total computer geeks that we have to invent our own language that only other hard core puter geeks understand? give me a break, English works just fine. </blockquote>QFE has been used for a [I cannot control my vocabulary] long time and *gasp* imagine using abbreviations or acronyms in a chat/text based game and forum.Quoted For EmphasisIt is not too hard to figure out. </blockquote>As stated... not everyone reads the forums nor do they keep track of all the acronyms used on a forum or whatnot. Now that I have said my Off topic statement, I think there should be some risk with death however ... I honestly dont have an idea due to the many play styles people have. Nor do I want that responsibility *sp?* of designing said death penalty... As they say you can please some of the people all the time you cant please all the people all the time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I would be willing to try out something new for a death penalty as well<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do raid, duo, solo and run full group instances so I can fully feel most everyone's pain <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> *figure of speech lol* Just my 2cp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sylverlokk13

06-24-2007, 12:39 AM

Guy De Alsace wrote: <blockquote>My idea:You die, take the usual 0.5% hit and equipment damage and then are rezzed by a player or revive. You have permanent rez sickness UNTIL you spend time meditating to your deity. At an altar in your home (takes least time) or using a holy symbol carried on you. Quality of the symbol indicates how quickly your rez sickness wears off. Multiple rez sickness effects will stack forcing you to eventually plead to your chosen deity to cure it!For those with no deity, rez sickness is permanent. However a representative of one of the deities will remove it at the cost of personal status points and gold or a large amount of gold as a donation.10 cumulative death effects will result in your toon becoming a shade for a week of in game time..cursed to wander the lands without being able to join in the fun but scaring hapless adventurers. </blockquote> My Idea is when you die: SOE sends someone to your house with a baseball bat to work you over or kneecap you. Newsflash: The days of harsh death penalties are over. EQ1 was the last of its breed unless you want your game to be a niche market. Even vanguard is reducing their death penalties because kicking someone when they are already down IS NOT FUN. And thats why we play this GAME for is Fun, not some sense of self worth because were "tough" enough to survive the death penalty.

Arwen0

06-24-2007, 04:23 AM

Like I said, if you really want a harsh death penalty with a good time sink, then Vanguard is your game! It was designed with you hardcore players in mind. /sarcasm on Oh....wait, almost no one is playing Vanguard....I wonder why? /sarcasm off

Nakaru-Nitepaw

06-24-2007, 07:31 AM

I still keep vanguard on my station access but i don't really play it except to log in once a month to see how it's doing. I prefer EQ2 since it's far superior in most ways. Plus it continues the story from where eq1 left off. i kinda have my dislikes about sigil since they sold out and threw in the towel on games 2 times as i recall. Aren't they formerly known as verant?

Birn

06-24-2007, 08:40 AM

I don't see we need a more "risk" because the reward are often not worth it in the first place so the whole risk vs reward is somewhat broken in EQ2. The only true risk vs reward in this game where it's somewhat balanced is raiding, you will end up with considerable repair costs if you are doing a new mob you havent done before and of course poison costs, arrows etc but if you beat it you will have some loot, everytime.

KBern

06-25-2007, 11:05 AM

Ramone@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>My time is valuable. If this game starts to waste it any more then it already does, I wont' be interested in playing it.I'm sorry, but I'm really not a fan of any form of wasted time as a punishment for death. I'd be more open to a corpse run, because at *least* your doing something.Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.</blockquote> QFE</blockquote>what the heck is QFE? Can't we all stop being total computer geeks that we have to invent our own language that only other hard core puter geeks understand? give me a break, English works just fine. </blockquote>QFE has been used for a [I cannot control my vocabulary] long time and *gasp* imagine using abbreviations or acronyms in a chat/text based game and forum.Quoted For EmphasisIt is not too hard to figure out. </blockquote>As stated... not everyone reads the forums nor do they keep track of all the acronyms used on a forum or whatnot. Now that I have said my Off topic statement, I think there should be some risk with death however ... I honestly dont have an idea due to the many play styles people have. Nor do I want that responsibility *sp?* of designing said death penalty... As they say you can please some of the people all the time you cant please all the people all the time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I would be willing to try out something new for a death penalty as well<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do raid, duo, solo and run full group instances so I can fully feel most everyone's pain <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> *figure of speech lol* Just my 2cp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I fully agree, but the attitude the question was posed with was unwarranted simply because he did not understand one acronym that many people use. To say english works fine when acronyms are english and used in many areas of even professional life along with gaming and posting on forums was a tad ignorant and attempting to be attacking.What does "cp" and "lol" mean again? *kidding* but you see my point. Now back in topic.

Maryk

06-26-2007, 02:16 PM

What does CP mean? Sorry...just haven't seen it before.

Maryk

06-26-2007, 02:52 PM

Perfect death penalty:When you hit five deaths...your character is put in jail and forced to read the EULA. You must pass a EULA test in order to get out of jail.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Brook

06-26-2007, 07:59 PM

I still think the idea of having a server that offers those of us who did enjoy the shard runs as a means of entertainment is a good one. Some like the way things are now and that's all great; fun for you may not = fun for me. I wouldn't want them to change what most of the player base wants as they need to do that to stay competitive in the market. Its just an idea anyway.

rubels

06-27-2007, 01:56 AM

Re : Shard ... I believe this is the best solution. To answer the CS ticket issue. Either make a NPC that allows shard recovery based on lvl. Ie you die at lvl 70 it costs more then level 10. This also allows a few new class specific skill options Rez , Summon Shard. Also new item concepts. Keeping to this core value then those people that are worried about time sinks still have a option to buy out. Re : Change of game play... I find this rather a funny argument since the game was changed from a shard run to no shard run. If anything can be said they changed the game from risk vs reward point of stance to what it is now basicly a rinse wash repeat cycle for loot with no risk vs reward.Re : Vanguard hehe I like that people thought it was going to be the end all of all MMOS. Bottom line the corpse runs there where not the reason its folding. Faulty programming , lack of content, raid enviroment and a premature launch is the reason no one plays VG.... Re : New Server .... I believe if you dont agree with the above going into standard servers , then a new server (hard core?) should be introduced. I do believe a high % of players whould honestly play it. I sure and hell whould.- Krov

Bromir

06-27-2007, 07:07 AM

I got it .. You will be forced to play wow for 1 hour ..

idonthe

06-27-2007, 02:54 PM

you people complain too much, go try out some korean mmrpg, the death penalty enough to make you quit the game.

AWMascot

06-27-2007, 03:11 PM

<cite>rubelson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Re : Shard ... I believe this is the best solution. To answer the CS ticket issue. Either make a NPC that allows shard recovery based on lvl. Ie you die at lvl 70 it costs more then level 10. This also allows a few new class specific skill options Rez , Summon Shard. Also new item concepts. Keeping to this core value then those people that are worried about time sinks still have a option to buy out. Re : Change of game play... I find this rather a funny argument since the game was changed from a shard run to no shard run. If anything can be said they changed the game from risk vs reward point of stance to what it is now basicly a rinse wash repeat cycle for loot with no risk vs reward.Re : Vanguard hehe I like that people thought it was going to be the end all of all MMOS. Bottom line the corpse runs there where not the reason its folding. Faulty programming , lack of content, raid enviroment and a premature launch is the reason no one plays VG.... Re : New Server .... I believe if you dont agree with the above going into standard servers , then a new server (hard core?) should be introduced. I do believe a high % of players whould honestly play it. I sure and hell whould.- Krov </blockquote>A new server would be good so SOE can see how many people really stay and play after the first few months. If so many people want corpse runs and long death penalties then the server will be a hit and SOE can spread it to other servers. If not the server is deleted along with your charcters and you can just deal with it as being hardcore.

Femke

06-27-2007, 03:49 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>without risk of some sort, there is no reward. I suppose we should all just get a lollypop when we die. I guess what some MMO players want is god mode, just no death all hack and slash. It's called playstation kids, go back there. </blockquote> I have an idea for you.... Lets make it as the old Ultima Online!!!! You die and every person that was close could take any and all items from your corpse while you as ghost only could stand there, watch and do nothing. You could lose everything that you had on you.... gold, weapons, armor, potions.... Wee, what a reward!!! That is what you want? No? Oh, maybe then you may like it how it was in Lineage II? You die, lose 9% of hard grinded experience.... with bad luck you could even delevel!!! Not to mention that you could drop gear of millions worth!!! That must be the reward you love!!!! No?? Why do you think both games mentioned above had to change these though death penalties.... People got sick and tired of it. And you can make all your "little childlike" remarks about playstations or whatever. I am here to have fun, not to waste time and energy... not even to mention to get annoyed over and over again. Death penalty in Everquest is good as it is. Here I dare to take bigger risks as in any of the other games I ever played and have great fun. Now THAT is what I call a great reward!!! Femke. .

AWMascot

06-27-2007, 05:56 PM

In life most people try not to be to risky at least with their own lives. Don't you think in a game you should be able to take risks? If you don't then do like people say and every time you die you delete your character.

rubels

06-27-2007, 06:43 PM

<cite>AWMascot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rubelson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Re : Shard ... I believe this is the best solution. To answer the CS ticket issue. Either make a NPC that allows shard recovery based on lvl. Ie you die at lvl 70 it costs more then level 10. This also allows a few new class specific skill options Rez , Summon Shard. Also new item concepts. Keeping to this core value then those people that are worried about time sinks still have a option to buy out. Re : Change of game play... I find this rather a funny argument since the game was changed from a shard run to no shard run. If anything can be said they changed the game from risk vs reward point of stance to what it is now basicly a rinse wash repeat cycle for loot with no risk vs reward.Re : Vanguard hehe I like that people thought it was going to be the end all of all MMOS. Bottom line the corpse runs there where not the reason its folding. Faulty programming , lack of content, raid enviroment and a premature launch is the reason no one plays VG.... Re : New Server .... I believe if you dont agree with the above going into standard servers , then a new server (hard core?) should be introduced. I do believe a high % of players whould honestly play it. I sure and hell whould.- Krov </blockquote>A new server would be good so SOE can see how many people really stay and play after the first few months. If so many people want corpse runs and long death penalties then the server will be a hit and SOE can spread it to other servers. If not the server is deleted along with your charcters and you can just deal with it as being hardcore. </blockquote>Sounds like test server crap I just did.... im all for it.- Krov

rubels

06-27-2007, 06:47 PM

<cite>AWMascot wrote:</cite><blockquote>In life most people try not to be to risky at least with their own lives. Don't you think in a game you should be able to take risks? If you don't then do like people say and every time you die you delete your character. </blockquote> Your saying the same crap over and over. If you want to debate come up with logical solutions like I posted. Otherwise your just a troll and I slay trolls for fun .... and yea I prefer to slay them with a risk.- Krov

Shalwin

06-27-2007, 07:04 PM

When the game was released, there was a shard, and stiffer penalty for death if you didn't retrieve your shard. Not only that, if ANYONE in the group died, everyone lost experience. What effect did these penalties have? They made most groups break up very quickly if someone died, or there was a wipe. As soon as someone died, everyone had "something else to do". I'm pretty sure they removed the group penalty first, but having to retrieve shards was enough of a pain in the butt to cause most groups to fold. Any kind of penalty that would result in someone being put in "time out" would cause groups to fold, most people would log off once in jail, or limbo or whatever and go play a more fun game. The death penalty is just fine the way it is, a little bit of experience, and a little bit of money.

Surething

06-27-2007, 08:50 PM

One of the main problems I see with this idea (and quite frankly any idea to increase the death penalty) is it creates (for me at least) tedium, frustration and additionally adds to the possibility of boredom.Now some people like to be frustrated (usually the same ones that just love to grind). For some people, tedium and repetition just make a game a wonderful experience (my 3 year old grandson loves repetition). Most teenagers can listen to the same song over and over and over or repeat the same "cool" phrase ad infinitum(until it makes adults want to puke).However, in a game that is not a really great idea. We already have people complaining about the population being too low. We do not need to add "features" that will drive people away. If you want an additional death penalty then you can make your own - (destroy your armor in the middle of a dungeon, just before you flip off a boss mob, that should keep you entertained for awhile).Just remember that when you make these "fun" suggestions to have a "meaningful" death penaly, many of us are not going like it and will take our ball (money) and go home if they are implemented.I, once again, offer my suggestion for people that want an interesting death penaly.SOE shall make a "Death Sucks Server of no return;" Give a free transfer to that server for all those players that want to enoy the enhanced death penalty. (They will not be allowed to transfer off that server)Additionally, set up a forum for the people on that server to post on- this will allow the rest of us to read that forum and "ROTFLOAO" - when the players on the "Death Sucks Server of no return" begin to whine as they realize that death really does suck; and they are stuck with the "wonderful idea" they tried to impose on the rest of us.

Siogai

06-27-2007, 09:42 PM

Here's an idea, partially stolen from Lineage2.... Since we kill mobs and loot their bodies... When you die, you have chance to have your corpse looted by the mob(s) that killed you. If the surviving members of your party manage to kill the mobs, then you get the item back automatically. If you wiped, or died soloing/out of party... you don't. There's a higher chance of losing something if you die to an encounter than to a solo mob. The item lost can be anything. Weapon, armour, item in your bag, whatever. Regardless of level, type, tag or classification. No Drop? No problem. No trade? Yoinks! Heritage? So sorry, don't die! Fabled? Guess the mob's got an early Christmas. I mean, turn about *is* fair play, isn't it?

Ner`Zhul

06-27-2007, 10:56 PM

Personally I think Soul Shards and Shard-retrieving Potion are great ideas to work together but I don't understand why SOE removed them from Norrath =(If you want some adventure and excitement, just go for some shard-retrieving job.If you don't want to do this time-consuming trivial, just buy a vail to get the shards back.<img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Can anyone explain why this feature was removed? (shards may sink into ground?)

Squigglle

06-27-2007, 11:01 PM

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>My time is valuable. If this game starts to waste it any more then it already does, I wont' be interested in playing it.I'm sorry, but I'm really not a fan of any form of wasted time as a punishment for death. I'd be more open to a corpse run, because at *least* your doing something.Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.What happens if 24 people die in a raid? You've just developed all sorts of irratating problems. Now you have 24 people zoning, and 24 people with random problems (IE: Scaling timers).</blockquote>agree

Femke

06-28-2007, 01:28 AM

<cite>AWMascot wrote:</cite><blockquote>In life most people try not to be to risky at least with their own lives. Don't you think in a game you should be able to take risks? If you don't then do like people say and every time you die you delete your character. </blockquote>This is a game... not real life. In real life I don't have the skills I can have in Norrath. Neither I can fight in real life dragons, gnolls or whatever... Not I get in real life statuspoints or have a healthbar above my head.... Femke.

Ulad

10-25-2007, 05:25 PM

<cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still think the idea of having a server that offers those of us who did enjoy the shard runs as a means of entertainment is a good one. Some like the way things are now and that's all great; fun for you may not = fun for me. I wouldn't want them to change what most of the player base wants as they need to do that to stay competitive in the market. Its just an idea anyway. </blockquote>That's right! I was having the same idea for looong time. There are PvE and PvP servers, so people can choose their playstyle. Having "hardcore" server(s) would greatly help to resolve this issue with death penalty. Look at this, since shards were removed each month a new topic comes up in this forum asking or debating why this was done. There is a vast number of people who like shards system and want it back. Others probably don't like it at all. Trying to mix then together just create frustration.Personally, I want shards and XP debt back. This is my personal opinion. If somebody don't like, that OK, but again, I emphasize - there are many people who want shards back, and I think this number is big enough for SOE to think about having shards-dedicated server or in-game option for this.

skinandbones

10-25-2007, 05:33 PM

Nice necro postNow on topic No way this feature sucked major [Removed for Content]. Die in an instance and shard is stuck even right clicking on door to get it. I cant tell you how many times that happend to me or guild mates. XP debit is good the way it is no need for group penalty to come back. For a server to come back that way will require two sets of code to support which I can tell you from EQlive this wont happen.

Ulad

10-25-2007, 06:03 PM

<cite>skinandbones wrote:</cite><blockquote>For a server to come back that way will require two sets of code to support which I can tell you from EQlive this wont happen. </blockquote>I doubt it. XP depth is just a variable which can be set to any number. Shards was implemented and tested before and the code exists. So, it's just a matter of enabling some features and re-balancing. Though it will require some work to be done for sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.And about stuck shards. As I remember, shards have time out the same as XP debt. So if you don't recover it , it's gone in a few days. Or you can buy it. Sony provided many alternative ways to get shards/XP debt back, but somehow ppl still were unhappy. I was fine with the way it was implemented. Some not. Let not mix it together <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Skua

10-25-2007, 06:08 PM

yeah more zonning !!! ._. nah death is ok now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

DanaDark

10-25-2007, 06:20 PM

I like this idea. I've always loved the idea of a death penalty of some sort.Some people complain anything that wastes their time... well, umm, THIS IS A GAME. If you're sitting here playing a GAME... you are WASTING IRL time technically. I cannot elieve some people here actually think their character IN GAME actually has some sort of real world financial time value...Anyway, the min/max'ers out there surely hate death in all its forms, but Im not one of those. I actually kinda like the idea of being afraid to go venturing somewhere. But I guess im one of very very few.I think we should adopt this death penalty...Upon death, the following will apply:1. Character Deleted2. Account Closed3. Credit card charged 1004. Sony puts a hit out on you5. Sony puts a hit out on your family6. Sony pees on your grave

LordPazuzu

10-25-2007, 06:27 PM

I've heard 1001 different incarnations of the whole limbo/heave/hell/alternate plane idea. In reality it's just a penalty box for dying. I'd take full corpse runs over these. At least then you weren't sitting around doing nothing while you waited your time out. You were actively working to solve your problem. There is no risk involved in this idea. It's a time out. The risk of corpse runs was also time, but it wasn't just the time it took you to recover your corpse, it was the time you lost if you couldn't. This is why alot of people are oppsed to corpse runs. They can be [I cannot control my vocabulary] stressful. Once you remove that element of risk from a death penalty, it becomes pointless and boring. A death penalty should be simple in concept and execution and it should hurt. It should not be drawn out, convoluted, and boring. In my opinion, which many will disagree with, a game should either have a real death penalty or none at all. If a death penalty doen'st truly hurt than it serves no purpose. Playing it in the middle ultimately just ends up pleasing no one and comes across as a cop out(*coughVanguardcough*).

Illmarr

10-25-2007, 06:40 PM

Right or wrong, the player base by and large would not think kindly on re-instating a real death penalty at this stage of the game IMO. Once you go soft, you stay soft <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> The MMO world of late 2007 has, for better or worse moved on from this game mechanic and all the nostalgia in the world probably will not bring it back

DanaDark

10-25-2007, 06:42 PM

It is now non-penalty Min/Max-Quest!

CuriousGeorge

10-25-2007, 06:58 PM

Ptttthhhhh!! All the OP deserves.

DanaDark

10-25-2007, 07:09 PM

Obviously those against the death penalty never raided in EQ1...Nothing was more fun that teasing your guild leader about his underwear after wipping to some mean Dragon...Not to mention being a newbie and seeing a naked high level army before you..Ahh the days of naked running <3 <3 <3

Zabom

10-25-2007, 07:13 PM

I am an old school EQ1 player. As such, I really miss the corpse runs. In fact, the point at which I lost interest in EQ1 is when the brought in the guild lobby corpse summonners to bring your corpse to you for a price. Some of my favorite memories of EQ1 involve dragging a corpse back to an eternally grateful low lvl guildie, or spamming my /corpsedrag macro as I run by my camped corpse hoping to get far away enough from the mobs to come back and safely collect both corpses. That was exciting. Yes, it was frustrating at times, and made you swear you would never play again, but the relief at completing the run at such risk was worth it. It really got the blood pumping. I am not saying that they should change the game, but it would be neat if you could choose the corpse run option instead of xp loss. Maybe a window could pop up when you revive to choose corpse run or xp loss. If for some reason the corpse is unrecoverable, after 24 hours the corpse despawns and you are hit with the XP debt. Another more hard core option that could be chosen from the same window would be a corps run to save gear repair cost. Such a run would be like the old EQ, done naked to loot the corpse for your gear.

Ulad

10-25-2007, 07:58 PM

<cite>Zabom wrote:</cite><blockquote>That was exciting. Yes, it was frustrating at times, and made you swear you would never play again, but the relief at completing the run at such risk was worth it. It really got the blood pumping. I am not saying that they should change the game, but it would be neat if you could choose the corpse run option instead of xp loss.</blockquote>Agree, but XP loss 0.5% (as for now) vs corpse run wouldn't work. Nobody will do corpse run to recover 0.5% XP <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). And we come again to the idea for special server with shards and hardcore XP debt. Don't really see other option here. I didn't play EQ1, but was very exited with EQ2 when it just came out, with shards and stuff, the same feeling of "blood pumping".

Cakassis

10-25-2007, 08:16 PM

Whenever you die in EQ2 it opens up a browser window and you have to read this thread. That would make me never want to die again.

Zabom

10-25-2007, 08:18 PM

<cite>Ulad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite><blockquote>That was exciting. Yes, it was frustrating at times, and made you swear you would never play again, but the relief at completing the run at such risk was worth it. It really got the blood pumping. I am not saying that they should change the game, but it would be neat if you could choose the corpse run option instead of xp loss.</blockquote>Agree, but XP loss 0.5% (as for now) vs corpse run wouldn't work. Nobody will do corpse run to recover 0.5% XP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />). And we come again to the idea for special server with shards and hardcore XP debt. Don't really see other option here. I didn't play EQ1, but was very exited with EQ2 when it just came out, with shards and stuff, the same feeling of "blood pumping".</blockquote>You have a valid point about the .5% XP debt. Of couse in EQ1 you had about a 5% XP loss with every death. I can remember more the once losing a level because of deaths. Perhaps the option would have to be chosen ahead of time. Something like this. Choose "corpse run" in settings, get higher xp gain while adventuring (maybe 5-10%) but if you die you have to run naked back to your corpse to get your gear. If it is unatainable choose to pay a summoner to recall your corpse for 1-20 gold (Based on lvl) and an aditional 5% xp debt (just to keep the customer service ticket load down). Or choose Normal play in the settings and it is just like it is now.

Tae

10-25-2007, 08:26 PM

For all the people who are saying that the game is too easy now - roll a character on a PvP server, get it to level 17. Don't get any MC gear, don't get any fabled gear, don't get any achievement. Level lock it. Then have fun with your "easy" game.

greenmantle

10-25-2007, 10:56 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>The devs hopefully knows what is best for the game and go by that. </blockquote>:rofl To the op nice idea but it isnt going to happen. Welcome to the add generation, planning, patience and punishment are things of the past.

dhvyse000

10-26-2007, 10:24 AM

What's wrong with the current death system?NOTHING!Leave it alone, it's perfect now.

Music4lone

10-26-2007, 10:33 AM

I do not ever want the game to control my play time. Restricting me from doing what I pay to do, because I died? LOL. No thanks. Interesting thoughts, but it definitely would not make me all tingly inside to have a death penalty that required me to sit in pergatory or whatever for some extended amount of time, just to be able to go and play again.Nope. No thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

dhvyse000

10-26-2007, 10:40 AM

<cite>Music4lone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not ever want the game to control my play time. Restricting me from doing what I pay to do, because I died? LOL. No thanks. Interesting thoughts, but it definitely would not make me all tingly inside to have a death penalty that required me to sit in pergatory or whatever for some extended amount of time, just to be able to go and play again.Nope. No thanks. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>EXACTLY! From my understanding, the reason they changed it was because of more casual players sinking time for no reason. No one likes a time sink for the sake of a time sink. Some of us more casual players only get to jump on for an hour at a time or so, LIKE ME.Less timesink = more playtime.

Shackleton1

10-26-2007, 10:41 AM

I don't know why people say the EQ1 death penalty was harsh. Once in a while you got screwed and had to do a run. But mostly, you just got a 96% rez, and you stuck 10% into level xp and forgot about it.I find the EQ2 repair costs to be more challenging to keep up with than the EQ1 xp loss.Unless you're thinking of the early EQ1 days where dying basically meant your group broke up because you'd spend half an hour running back to the corpse. In which case I'd say "baaaaaad idea".

LordPazuzu

10-26-2007, 11:17 AM

<cite>Zabom wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am an old school EQ1 player. As such, I really miss the corpse runs. In fact, the point at which I lost interest in EQ1 is when the brought in the guild lobby corpse summonners to bring your corpse to you for a price. Some of my favorite memories of EQ1 involve dragging a corpse back to an eternally grateful low lvl guildie, or spamming my /corpsedrag macro as I run by my camped corpse hoping to get far away enough from the mobs to come back and safely collect both corpses. That was exciting. Yes, it was frustrating at times, and made you swear you would never play again, but the relief at completing the run at such risk was worth it. It really got the blood pumping. I am not saying that they should change the game, but it would be neat if you could choose the corpse run option instead of xp loss. Maybe a window could pop up when you revive to choose corpse run or xp loss. If for some reason the corpse is unrecoverable, after 24 hours the corpse despawns and you are hit with the XP debt. Another more hard core option that could be chosen from the same window would be a corps run to save gear repair cost. Such a run would be like the old EQ, done naked to loot the corpse for your gear.</blockquote>I wouldn't mind a server where corpse runs were activated for everyone. That way those of us who saw value in the mechanic could congregate together on equal footing without imposing our playstyle those who play for different reasons than we do. I'd be interested to see how high or how low the server population truly was.

Gladiia

10-26-2007, 11:21 AM

Being in a group with people that dont give a flip about dying waste my time. Lots of people here are mentioning that they would be peeved at the extra downtime caused by dying. BUT if the penalty of death gradually caused a longer downtime if multiple deaths in a row were experienced as the OP suggested, then more people would take death more seriously....and there would be less dying....and there would be less downtime.

LordPazuzu

10-26-2007, 11:52 AM

<cite>Gladiia@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being in a group with people that dont give a flip about dying waste my time. Lots of people here are mentioning that they would be peeved at the extra downtime caused by dying. BUT if the penalty of death gradually caused a longer downtime if multiple deaths in a row were experienced as the OP suggested, then more people would take death more seriously....and there would be less dying....and there would be less downtime. </blockquote>This is true. I've been in situations too many times where people could have cared less about dying and it made their play sloppy. I've been around players who have soloed their way to 70 without any concern at all for how often they died. This breeds a sloppy and careless playstyle. People should actually care whether or not they die. The only impact I've seen death have is while raiding. Broken gear can end the raid early..oh wait, patch kits... nevermind.

Shadowtzer

10-26-2007, 11:58 AM

Ok here is my 5cp (inflation) on this topic. I agree with everyone who has said that they don't want their time wasted by hanging out in some random heaven/hell area for whatever time limit. My play time is precious and do not feel the need to revamp the current way of dying. My main is also a 70 wizzy and I die alot. It is part of the package, I knew this when I rolled a wizzy and I still accept the fact that my repair bill is always between 15g and 20g a pop. I don't die because I am lazy. I wear jammies not armor like some of the other classes. I die for random reasons such as I, most of the time, pull the aggro off of the tank (not bashing tanks and no I don't have baby nukes so stop asking), I wander somewhere where I should have put in invis, or simply am standing somewhere when it wears off and get jumped. If I am soloing, I pull way too many critters, accidently lol. I have a problem with falling all the time, if its something I can fall off of, I have all the t-shirts lol. So I don't feel the need to spend tons of time in a place that offers me no personal benefit. I started playing this game because of the content it currently holds and see absolutely no need to change it because a few are "bored". Roll a wizzy or any other jammie wearing toon and tell me in a couple of months if you still feel the need to increase the death penalty.

Senliten

10-26-2007, 12:10 PM

<cite>Shadowtzer@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok here is my 5cp (inflation) on this topic. I agree with everyone who has said that they don't want their time wasted by hanging out in some random heaven/hell area for whatever time limit. My play time is precious and do not feel the need to revamp the current way of dying. My main is also a 70 wizzy and I die alot. It is part of the package, I knew this when I rolled a wizzy and I still accept the fact that my repair bill is always between 15g and 20g a pop. I don't die because I am lazy. I wear jammies not armor like some of the other classes. I die for random reasons such as I, most of the time, pull the aggro off of the tank (not bashing tanks and no I don't have baby nukes so stop asking), I wander somewhere where I should have put in invis, or simply am standing somewhere when it wears off and get jumped. If I am soloing, I pull way too many critters, accidently lol. I have a problem with falling all the time, if its something I can fall off of, I have all the t-shirts lol. So I don't feel the need to spend tons of time in a place that offers me no personal benefit. I started playing this game because of the content it currently holds and see absolutely no need to change it because a few are "bored". Roll a wizzy or any other jammie wearing toon and tell me in a couple of months if you still feel the need to increase the death penalty. </blockquote>prety much been a wizzy sicne CB and Pre-Ob and stills ay they shouldnt of got rid of the original shard recovery concept. Heck been one for about almsot 11 if not soon 12 expansions on EqLive as well and pretty mcuh to say your 70 and still die to sad miss up's pretty much has me laughing.. Just because the wet paper bag tanks (not the leather and hide mind you where there as called paper tanks). doesnt mean to blame our armor issues (wizards and casters in general) for our death.. Aggro managment is pretty much a hit and miss but for a lvl 70 wizard whom seems to say they can play there class... intriuges me more due to you should know of concussion and its beauty of usefulness.. Which one may say had no benefit but more hamr than good... pretty mcuh is not looking at it decently enoguh let aone was around before it got the boot.. reason you pull to amny creatures? hmm your either pulling group encounters or solo encounters not in a designated planned thoguht out safe spot where solo or group NPCs wont wnader to you at... And im only "bored" due to the fact the content and originality WAS CHANGED.. where as some see no need casue in all honest its to easy to say oh i died but hey least i get to go back and kill more.... sadly there need to be a repercussion on dieing and the debt and even lowered time on the death effect itself is pretty much in need of change...I went bored when originality to EQ2 left and was so rudley hated on by the plater base then.. and stil its same reason now... jsut wanting an easy thing to play. Well if you look at ti this way.. i am gunning for hopes of the shards come back nito play or some way there prologing death effects in general.. due to the whole year and a half now contract on expansion release.. if it was easy as is now.. pretty much the top teir guild reach end game of that expansion in probably less than half months time..

Kaalenarc

10-26-2007, 12:10 PM

Just adding my voice to the chorous that hates the OP's idea. There are PLENTY of time sinks in the game already, this idea adds ZERO to my gameplay experience and , honestly, its just a terrible idea. sorry.

Senliten

10-26-2007, 12:17 PM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> Just adding my voice to the chorous that hates the OP's idea. There are PLENTY of time sinks in the game already, this idea adds ZERO to my gameplay experience and , honestly, its just a terrible idea. sorry.</blockquote>Care to name a few of these so called "time sinks" besdies saying the traveling to and from.. pretty much that was the only time sink with shards.. and will always be.. but casue ppl who want things to fit there darned time budget.. are gettnig what they want.. adn originality thrown out the window..Tell me as well... what do you conisder gamepla experince? going gung ho into the fights of NPC's gaining much exp for levels and if you die just a small minor of 0.5% debt? pretty much if people care so much for experince than originality with experince... heh then thi will end up like WoW as well.. to easy... no wait itil edn up like back in the days of testing SoL..... to long paitence of waitnig and wanting things handed and not earned....

JamesRay

10-26-2007, 12:41 PM

OK,For all of the those who think the "game" becomes more "challenging" by adding TIME SINKS to the death penalty...really try to apply some common sense to your logic.The best rewards in the game come from completing quests and defeating monsters. Does waiting 5 minutes longer make the quest harder? No, it just wastes players' time. If I try to take 4 players and kill an epic x 4, does not having to wait an extra 5 minutes mean killing it will be easier? No. In fact, if I continue to make stupid mistakes, my gear eventually breaks and I have to visit the mender or blow some repair kits to continue getting "rewards." Now there is an incentive to make better decisions! You can't keep making the same mistakes ad nauseum! It forces you to make corrective action or continue to fail! Using death as a means of transportation is merely an exploit and really doesn't deserve the level of attention it gets in this argument.I'd invite all of the folks who feel the need to have stricter punishment when they FAIL...to make FAILURE less REWARDING (isn't failure INHERENTLY NOT REWARDING?)...When you die once: tape your pinky finger to your ring finger.When you die twice: tape your middle finger to the other two.When you die three times: tape your pointer to the other three.Four times: tape your thumb to your hand.As you continue to die, continue binding your fingers together on the other hand, then tape your mouth shut, then move on to appendages, such as binding your wrists together, your arms to your legs, etc. If you need assistance, ask your spouse, roommate, child, or visiting friend...just be sure to explain to them that you are taking much needed measures to make the "game more challenging"...I'd recommend starting immediately, as it will slow the rate in which this foolishness continues to be posted on these forums.

[email protected]

10-26-2007, 01:00 PM

I kinda wish rezz effects were a bit longer and stronger. So that people bind rushing NPC's (or PC's in PVP) wouldnt be helpful. Of course if someone got rezzed then it should reduce the effects a bit. but currently someone can revive and run back into combat with little issues.and as the game adds aa's into rezzing classes that completely removes the penalties it allows for people to die just to get full power, etc. Thats it i think shard were fine and i think the current system without shards is fine. But it is kinda sad to see people die so readily in combat and think nothing of it becuase they come back with some reduced stats, sometimes full power and end up in some cases better then when they died. Which really should NEVER be an issue.

Ziviel

10-26-2007, 01:03 PM

to the OP, how about..ummm. NO!

KBern

10-26-2007, 01:05 PM

<cite>JamesRay wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd invite all of the folks who feel the need to have stricter punishment when they FAIL...to make FAILURE less REWARDING (isn't failure INHERENTLY NOT REWARDING?)...When you die once: tape your pinky finger to your ring finger.When you die twice: tape your middle finger to the other two.When you die three times: tape your pointer to the other three.Four times: tape your thumb to your hand.As you continue to die, continue binding your fingers together on the other hand, then tape your mouth shut, then move on to appendages, such as binding your wrists together, your arms to your legs, etc. If you need assistance, ask your spouse, roommate, child, or visiting friend...just be sure to explain to them that you are taking much needed measures to make the "game more challenging"...I'd recommend starting immediately, as it will slow the rate in which this foolishness continues to be posted on these forums.</blockquote>I like this...or to make it simple....just put on some mittens after each death and keep them on for 2 hours.

phoenixshard

10-26-2007, 01:17 PM

<cite>Senliten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> Just adding my voice to the chorous that hates the OP's idea. There are PLENTY of time sinks in the game already, this idea adds ZERO to my gameplay experience and , honestly, its just a terrible idea. sorry.</blockquote>Care to name a few of these so called "time sinks" besdies saying the traveling to and from.. pretty much that was the only time sink with shards.. and will always be.. but casue ppl who want things to fit there darned time budget.. are gettnig what they want.. adn originality thrown out the window..Tell me as well... what do you conisder gamepla experince? going gung ho into the fights of NPC's gaining much exp for levels and if you die just a small minor of 0.5% debt? pretty much if people care so much for experince than originality with experince... heh then thi will end up like WoW as well.. to easy... no wait itil edn up like back in the days of testing SoL..... to long paitence of waitnig and wanting things handed and not earned.... </blockquote>I can tell you one of the biggest time sinks there is, waiting around for a needed named to spawn. Sitting around for a few hours waiting for a specific mob to pop is not fun, its does nothing to promote anything other than frustration. No one has asked for anything to be handed to them. You take the same risk for the same reward whether the death penalty is high or low. Personally, havng a death penalty that doesn't require me to lose so much xp or do a corpse run or retrieve a shard makes me try harder by actually being willing to try x mob that is higher level or is a ^^^ heroic fairly close to my level. I try out things that are harder and thus the reward is better to me.

Senliten

10-26-2007, 01:19 PM

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JamesRay wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd invite all of the folks who feel the need to have stricter punishment when they FAIL...to make FAILURE less REWARDING (isn't failure INHERENTLY NOT REWARDING?)...When you die once: tape your pinky finger to your ring finger.When you die twice: tape your middle finger to the other two.When you die three times: tape your pointer to the other three.Four times: tape your thumb to your hand.As you continue to die, continue binding your fingers together on the other hand, then tape your mouth shut, then move on to appendages, such as binding your wrists together, your arms to your legs, etc. If you need assistance, ask your spouse, roommate, child, or visiting friend...just be sure to explain to them that you are taking much needed measures to make the "game more challenging"...I'd recommend starting immediately, as it will slow the rate in which this foolishness continues to be posted on these forums.</blockquote>I like this...or to make it simple....just put on some mittens after each death and keep them on for 2 hours.</blockquote>Okay first @ James.. Simplicity... and no this is not foolishness this is pretty much a game mechanic that was thorwn out due to peoples own wants and demands that were talking about here.. Is and still more than likely on archive somewhere and i dang hope its being tweaked to comeback one day to the shattered lands.. Now for those in that were in CB (invite) and pre-OB (invite) you knew that the shard retriveing was a good originality concept.. but as its originality worn off even the testers after launch said its lost is flare so fraction of the norm of EQ2 wants it gone or your loesing a small ammount of players..Id rather if was in charge tho im not.. Id pretty mcuh say "fine your decision your jsut revune and income for those whom are working to make the game itself a success.. to leave over crud that was to be a good concept of play and originality thrown back at our faces doesnt harm us but just makes us stronger in the fact of many things.. and needless thats all a subscribe is... our payment to keep food on our familes tables.."Thats if i was in charge.. a samll influx loss of palyers over a game mechnuc that people hated cause it ost its flare.. selfish and spoiled players we almost all are.. @ Sak... im amazed your even one who supprots to keep it gone. let alone from looks of it you were in Pre-OB if not CB invite... and had first hand what it was like and the originality and fun it may be.. but yet either work in the real of things is putting strain on playing time for EQ2 that if it cant fit your budget of time.. then your agaisnt it in the first place..People if Time = Money and Money = Paychecks... pretty much you wouldnt have time at all.. but to put issues saying waste of time onto the field of these mechanics.. i ask you.. what time.. what waste? more like waste of SoE's time to even build the shattered lands itself? pretty mcuh people thrown the sahrd concept back at SoE cause it didnt fit there time frame... or simplicity itself of the game..

da5idblacksun

10-26-2007, 01:29 PM

Adding more time sinks? Bad bad bad.

sindarin

10-26-2007, 01:31 PM

heres my take on this. We need a new kind of game. we could call it "ascension!" basically you level up to 70, then you talk to a god of your choice who says "are you ready" if you say yes, you are reincarnated into a new world as level1, but its harder and different call it world 2. now you level to 70 and then you face your god again and he asks "are you ready?" if you say yes, you are reincarnated as level 1 again, in world 3, which is harder still...heh. Or we could create a new game and call it "Carpal tunnel world" you start out with a level 1 weapon which you can never drop or trade away.. and mobs are worth 1 xp each.

Torkema

10-26-2007, 01:34 PM

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>I like this...or to make it simple....just put on some mittens after each death and keep them on for 2G hours.</blockquote>I agree with the previous posters, and i've said it on a similar thread yesterday.You can also do one of he following when you die:- Run a "Full File Scan" of EQ2 or even all your SOE's games.- Get outside and run 5 minutes arround the block.- Find a dog (preferable not your own) and poke him till he gets tired and bites you.A game has to provide fun, entertainment and joy to the ones the pay for it. Of course as everything in this world, the gamming industry is there to make a proffit so you have to add things that make people want more of the game. (Mostly when speaking of subscription based MMO's).And i can understand that, as in all things in life, there is people out there that find fun and enjoynment in punishment of different sorts.But forcing that to others is just too much. Because as i've posted in other thread, there are lots of tools you can use to set up your own level of challenge inside the game, that i find logical that the base level has to be very general.If you really want challenge, and you are serious enough about it to not lie to yourself, you can set your on rules.For example:- Go full hardcore, if you die, delete your character, or ban yourself from using it till the next week,- If soloing or duoing, try hitting zones and mobs 4-6 levels above you, and if you are already capable of this (without dying half the time) then go hit mobs and zone 10 levels above you.- Get one of the group to roll and alt, and all mentor down to it, and try to do really high content (plus u'll get a nice experience cut from mentoring)- Etc. I think i made my point.You can set your own rules for challenge, as long as you are willing to follow them, you can even create a guild or have a friend list of people that enjoy the same style of gameplay.If you really want to challenge yourself you can actually do it.But asking to put in something a lot of people found irritating or frustrating, (and got removed) will only get a lot of people, mostly a lot of the ones that have been comming back these days to the game, and have been populating the servers a bit more (wich makes much more "Massive and Multiplayer" the game) turn arround and leave for something less frustrating.I think, we are ok this way, because we have an acceptable penalty (for a lot of people for what i've read so far), and you can "build" your own challenge from there.Torke.

Gnae

10-26-2007, 02:21 PM

You either make the game easier, attracts more people who don't like to think, or work for anything in a game.Or you make it challenging and more rewarding. No one playing today's MMORPG's will ever experience the heart pounding thrill of barely escaping death like in Everquest. Because all reasons to stay alive are gone.Death is MEANINGLESS....and therefore all challenge, all fear, all respect of the game world is also gone. Along with the wonder and awe. As it stands it is a bland game with very little excitement.

phoenixshard

10-26-2007, 02:24 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Death is MEANINGLESS....and therefore all challenge, all fear, all respect of the game world is also gone. Along with the wonder and awe. As it stands it is a bland game with very little excitement.</blockquote>*Shrug*Maybe for you, but I still enjoy playing it very much. But if its so bland and you get little excitement, why still play?

Asif

10-26-2007, 02:36 PM

KBern

10-26-2007, 02:40 PM

I just love the silly connections some people try to make.Like harder death penalty = more challenge to the fights and the players think more. Yeah just makes a ton of sense!Here is a clue, first the death penalty comes into play AFTER the fight is over...it does not affect the outcome of the fight at all. Second...just because SOME people need to force their brains to think by having a harsh penalty hanging over their heads....not all people are that unmotivated to succeed at what they are doing.

Torkema

10-26-2007, 02:47 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>You either make the game easier, attracts more people who don't like to think, or work for anything in a game.Or you make it challenging and more rewarding. No one playing today's MMORPG's will ever experience the heart pounding thrill of barely escaping death like in Everquest. Because all reasons to stay alive are gone.Death is MEANINGLESS....and therefore all challenge, all fear, all respect of the game world is also gone. Along with the wonder and awe. As it stands it is a bland game with very little excitement.</blockquote>My last post here. I think i showed my point of view.But friend, i suggest you go and maybe try other games out. Maybe you find something more suited to you out there, there are tons of MMO's.But calling all the people that like the game as it is (count me in that group) dumb (a.k.a. people who dont like to think) or lazy (a.k.a. people who dont want to work for anything in the game) wont exactly make your proposal more popular.I'm sorry that you find that the modifications to EQ2 have taken your fun out of it. I really hope that either you find a way to have fun with it again, or find another game that suits you better. Best of lucks.

KBern

10-26-2007, 02:55 PM

<cite>Torkemada@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>But calling all the people that like the game as it is (count me in that group) dumb (a.k.a. people who dont like to think) or lazy (a.k.a. people who dont want to work for anything in the game) wont exactly make your proposal more popular.</blockquote>I guess you never received the memo. The way you are supposed to debate your stance on a topic when posting on a message board is to insult the other posters who disagree with you.

Effie

10-26-2007, 02:57 PM

Some asian MMOs have awesome death penalties.. you can lose days or even weeks of progress from one linkdead death!

Torkema

10-26-2007, 03:02 PM

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess you never received the memo. The way you are supposed to debate your stance on a topic when posting on a message board is to insult the other posters who disagree with you.</blockquote>Lol.Torke.

Axelia

10-26-2007, 04:50 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>After much debate over corps runs and soul shards, etc, it seems the number one factor is that it takes lot's of time to recover the shard/corps. But that is the RISK bit. The reward is knowing you avoided death and won your kill/loot and survived without any nasty time sinks. The reasons it seems SOE got rid of soul shards is both a trend in philosophies and CS tickets which was too much hassle then it's worth for SOE to continue it. But in an attempt to think of a solution to bring both RISK and Reward back into balance I came up with this plan.When you die you will take the normal 10% eqip. hit as well as a small exp debt. You will then be zoned into a alternate plane of exsistance. Call it heaven, limbo, paradise whatever, it is the place of the dead.For evil races this would be a place of fire and hell hounds, a real sinners paradise. For good races it would be a place beauty. In this world would be some basic structures for visual appeal but overall nothing else. You would arrive without any gear only wearing what you had on in the character creation screen. There would be a soul merchant who could buy you out of this place.The first time you die you will be imprisoned for 1 minute. However if you die again within an hour it will become 2 minutes. If you die a third time in an hour it will be 5 min. You can be trapped without buying out or being ressurected for a total of 20 minutes.For every 3 levels you gain in adventuring you will receive a release shard (or whatever you call it) that is a get out of jail free card. This is a one time use shard that bails you out with no penalties except what we have now.If one of your party members rezes you, you spawn back into your body with no penalties except small exp hit and 10% on gear.If you wish to be released early you must pay the merchant there some coin. At higher level's you may spend some status points along with less coin to be released. if you buy out you are free with no penalties except exp hit (which is slightly greater then without buying out) and 10% on armor. Or you could make it no armor penality.If you stay your whole time you will be rezed with full gear back to the safe spot in the zone.The reason I think this will work is because it solves some fundimental issues about risk vs reward. A corps/shard run is a time sink to punish players (thus creating risk) for failure in persuit of their goals (reward). Without this risk the rewards often become trivial and we might as well be fighting grey mobs for experience. The biggest problems with corps runs is that a corps can get stuck, thus creating a CS issue. The other problems are not being able to reach your corps. With this system you don't HAVE stay in jail provided you have a shard, coin or get rezed. However if your out of those then you know death is a greater risk. This will appeal to the hard core who might play alone or in off hours. In the case of a group/raid wipe, the group is still around together but simply waiting it out.Again the positives are:<ul><li>Risk vs Reward balanced</li><li>Penality is time, which is most valuable to players</li><li>Option to buy out</li><li>Can be rezed out</li><li>New zone to explore - Limbo</li><li>No stuck corps/shards means no CS calls</li><li>Can provide that natural break you need with known amount of time of penality</li><li>Every 3 level's free rez</li></ul>Today's rez is simply a quick trip back to the group, but doesn't have that penality erasing feel like it used to. Used to be a rez was highly sought after. Now that anyone can rez a healer and thus rez everyone it seems rez will be a popular choice for those in limbo.I envision quests being given in limbo and perhaps other things to do for those trapped. It can be a penality but still with some fun in it.Comments?</blockquote>After giving this some thought, I think that what should be done is there should be NO 'death' at all. It should be renamed to defeat. Now a defeat should be simply that you fall to the ground and are pentalized for a short time at which point you stand back up and resume.Defeat by defination is "Failure to win" and Death is defined as the cessation of all vital functions of the body including the heartbeat, brain activity (including the brain stem), and breathing.Since YOU do not "die" then the term death should not be used and defeat is the correct term. Death is considered permenant and defeat is not. Since the game dose not have permeant death then the term is used incorrectly.ANY game that does not have perma-death is not going to be challenging no matter how difficult or easy the encounters are. Given enough time and effort any player can eventually overcome MOST encounters. I call this the million monkey syndrome. Why pentalize a player at all? In fact IMO since there is no real death the entire death thing is moat.

Gnae

10-26-2007, 06:14 PM

People don't want consequences, it's a common theme among this generation. Obviously it's being reflected in the attitudes of gamers now-a-days. Most Everquest 1 players are a bit older now, we remember when games were challenging not just ubber god mode all the time.I suppose all the accomplishment you felt for winning was so much better, that is why we liked classic EQ.But like EQ2 even classic EQ is dead. Killed by WoW and other stupid games.

Dasein

10-26-2007, 06:29 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>People don't want consequences, it's a common theme among this generation. Obviously it's being reflected in the attitudes of gamers now-a-days. Most Everquest 1 players are a bit older now, we remember when games were challenging not just ubber god mode all the time.I suppose all the accomplishment you felt for winning was so much better, that is why we liked classic EQ.But like EQ2 even classic EQ is dead. Killed by WoW and other stupid games.</blockquote>No, players do not need external consequences imposed through some sort of extra 'death penalty' because game designers cannot figure out how to make your character's remaining alive important. The proper death penalty is the loss of whatever your character would have accomplished had he remained alive. I see no need for anything beyond that.

mathalsolo

10-26-2007, 07:50 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite>After giving this some thought, I think that what should be done is there should be NO 'death' at all. It should be renamed to defeat. Now a defeat should be simply that you fall to the ground and are pentalized for a short time at which point you stand back up and resume.Defeat by defination is "Failure to win" and Death is defined as the cessation of all vital functions of the body including the heartbeat, brain activity (including the brain stem), and breathing.Since YOU do not "die" then the term death should not be used and defeat is the correct term. Death is considered permenant and defeat is not. Since the game dose not have permeant death then the term is used incorrectly.ANY game that does not have perma-death is not going to be challenging no matter how difficult or easy the encounters are. Given enough time and effort any player can eventually overcome MOST encounters. I call this the million monkey syndrome. Why pentalize a player at all? In fact IMO since there is no real death the entire death thing is moat. </blockquote>But you also have to realize, we play a game in a realm where you can be resurrected. Dying multiple times probably can and will happen in such a realm.However, I do like your defeat idea, but not in a sense that it is used for every failure. It would be cool to have it set up sort of like SWG, incapacitation, then death within a certain amount of time. That being said tho, with a death penalty that is next to nothing as it stands now, they'd have to ramp it up a bit to negate the "cautionary" incap. I liked the shards. I did not like debt. How about this: When you do actually die, you go on a shard run, but you are invis and not aggroable to anything. Once you get your shard, you are non-aggro for x amount of time to get out of there/port/whatever. That way, you still have the inconvenience of getting the shard, without the possibility of having to run for two or more because you get killed right after getting your existing shard. That takes away the headaches for CSRs, and makes people mad that they died. I don't see people complaining in WoW, VG, or EQ1, which has a 'corpse run' idea built in.

liveja

10-26-2007, 07:55 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Standing around, waiting for a timer to expire is not my idea of gameplay.</blockquote>QFE.

orchard54

10-27-2007, 06:32 AM

What the OP is suggesting sounds to similar to WoW...To the OP, you know death penalties are fine the way they are. The more "uber" your character is, the greater the cost in terms of repair bills. I'm not sure about you, but my 70 guardian costs about 7 gold per death, and 6 for my mystic. thats 60-75 gold for a FULL repair. And thats for each character! Not to mention my guardian has a lot of tower shields for the tower of stone ability, greatly increasing my repair bill even more, even if I don't die. I don't have plat flowing out my rear so it's a fair enough penalty as is.This is the type of game where the developers know you will die a LOT, so making the game frustrating isn't something they really don't want to do.

Kaalenarc

10-27-2007, 09:39 AM

<cite>Senliten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> Just adding my voice to the chorous that hates the OP's idea. There are PLENTY of time sinks in the game already, this idea adds ZERO to my gameplay experience and , honestly, its just a terrible idea. sorry.</blockquote>Care to name a few of these so called "time sinks" besdies saying the traveling to and from.. pretty much that was the only time sink with shards.. and will always be.. but casue ppl who want things to fit there darned time budget.. are gettnig what they want.. adn originality thrown out the window..Tell me as well... what do you conisder gamepla experince? going gung ho into the fights of NPC's gaining much exp for levels and if you die just a small minor of 0.5% debt? pretty much if people care so much for experince than originality with experince... heh then thi will end up like WoW as well.. to easy... no wait itil edn up like back in the days of testing SoL..... to long paitence of waitnig and wanting things handed and not earned.... </blockquote>Absolutely. There are literally hundreds of quests that are designed to be time sinks. Go here - talk to this guy - no fight. Run back and talk to NPC #2 - run back talk to NPC 1 etc. Camping for spawns is a time sink. So is repeating a zone over and over again hoping for a piece of your class armor to drop. I consider a good gameplay experience one that does not include shard runs. The penalty for death IS dying. Theres your penalty. I failed. Now i have to start over from an earlier point. And please - drop the "handed not earned" argument. I worked myself up to level 70 in combat and crafting. Ive built a guild of over 1000 members. I completed the gods forsaken claymore line and done enough raids to fable out my character and damnit i EARNED that stuff. Worked my backside off for it in fact. Just because I didnt need a kindergarten level punishment to go sit in a corner for a while till some friends helped me go get some dropped items doesnt mean I didnt earn my way here.

Axelia

10-27-2007, 02:20 PM

<cite>Amus@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>But you also have to realize, we play a game in a realm where you can be resurrected. Dying multiple times probably can and will happen in such a realm.However, I do like your defeat idea, but not in a sense that it is used for every failure. It would be cool to have it set up sort of like SWG, incapacitation, then death within a certain amount of time. That being said tho, with a death penalty that is next to nothing as it stands now, they'd have to ramp it up a bit to negate the "cautionary" incap. I liked the shards. I did not like debt. How about this: When you do actually die, you go on a shard run, but you are invis and not aggroable to anything. Once you get your shard, you are non-aggro for x amount of time to get out of there/port/whatever. That way, you still have the inconvenience of getting the shard, without the possibility of having to run for two or more because you get killed right after getting your existing shard. That takes away the headaches for CSRs, and makes people mad that they died. I don't see people complaining in WoW, VG, or EQ1, which has a 'corpse run' idea built in.</blockquote>Yes we do play in a realm where we can be resurrected but again I think the term should be restored since death is defined as permenant.What you are suggesting here is like WoW. I found the shard runs to be just a big pain in WoW and in EQ1. In fact due to me having to be out of town for three weeks instead of one day as planned, I lost everything on my Monk in EQ1. I stopped playing after that because it was just not worth the time and effort to get new equipment knowing that I may well loose it again.Suggestion in the past were made that there be 99 allowed deaths and at death 100 it is permenant but again the ones that 'die' a lot, were kicking and screeming NO! Suggestions have been made to have a perma-death server but it is never going to happen so I like others wait for a game to come out that will actually be challenging.Bottom line is as Dasein said though until game designers make your character's remaining alive important, there is no reason to impose the anything beyond the current 'death penalty'.

Norrsken

10-27-2007, 02:27 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amus@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>But you also have to realize, we play a game in a realm where you can be resurrected. Dying multiple times probably can and will happen in such a realm.However, I do like your defeat idea, but not in a sense that it is used for every failure. It would be cool to have it set up sort of like SWG, incapacitation, then death within a certain amount of time. That being said tho, with a death penalty that is next to nothing as it stands now, they'd have to ramp it up a bit to negate the "cautionary" incap. I liked the shards. I did not like debt. How about this: When you do actually die, you go on a shard run, but you are invis and not aggroable to anything. Once you get your shard, you are non-aggro for x amount of time to get out of there/port/whatever. That way, you still have the inconvenience of getting the shard, without the possibility of having to run for two or more because you get killed right after getting your existing shard. That takes away the headaches for CSRs, and makes people mad that they died. I don't see people complaining in WoW, VG, or EQ1, which has a 'corpse run' idea built in.</blockquote>Yes we do play in a realm where we can be resurrected but again I think the term should be restored since death is defined as permenant.What you are suggesting here is like WoW. I found the shard runs to be just a big pain in WoW and in EQ1. In fact due to me having to be out of town for three weeks instead of one day as planned, I lost everything on my Monk in EQ1. I stopped playing after that because it was just not worth the time and effort to get new equipment knowing that I may well loose it again.Suggestion in the past were made that there be 99 allowed deaths and at death 100 it is permenant but again the ones that 'die' a lot, were kicking and screeming NO! Suggestions have been made to have a perma-death server but it is never going to happen so I like others wait for a game to come out that will actually be challenging.Bottom line is as Dasein said though until game designers make your character's remaining alive important, there is no reason to impose the anything beyond the current 'death penalty'.</blockquote>Aye, there would be VERY few enchanters, especially coercers on a 100 deaths only server. Heck, playing my coercer it sometimes feel I could get 100 deaths a day. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gladiia

10-27-2007, 02:41 PM

Last night, on an alt, me and 4 others went thru Fallen Gate. We got most of the way to the end (right before the private instance part), and on a bad pull we wiped. What happens when you wipe in FG? Everyone has to revive right outside the entrance. Now THIS was a true death (or defeat...take your pick) penalty. We spent 45 minutes in there, and in order to get back to where we were, we would have to spend at least another 25 minutes (we would not have taken the side paths again as we did the first time). Now, if you have someone that can raise the dead, and there isn't a full wipe, then I feel there is no need for having this steep a penalty - otherwise why have people that can raise the dead anyway?BUT, I did find that this sort of ordeal was just overall. I don't think that a wipe should cause a party to revive outside of instances...at least no the ones with lockouts. But I think that there should be certain mobs that respawn in every single instance. (some have this...others don't). If you wipe, then having to hammer thru these mobs is the penalty. It takes some extra time, but at least everyone is doing something.

Spyderbite

10-27-2007, 02:41 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>But like EQ2 even classic EQ is dead. Killed by WoW and other stupid games.</blockquote>I wouldn't say "dead".. I'd call it "assimilated" instead.By those new generation gamers who believe in one thing.."Win at all costs"Thus the rampant cheating & exploits in games these days.No Risk.. All Reward.. that will be the most successful game ever developed.And the end of online gaming for the rest of us.Lets enjoy what we have while its still around.

Willias

10-27-2007, 02:52 PM

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>People don't want consequences, it's a common theme among this generation. Obviously it's being reflected in the attitudes of gamers now-a-days. Most Everquest 1 players are a bit older now, we remember when games were challenging not just ubber god mode all the time.I suppose all the accomplishment you felt for winning was so much better, that is why we liked classic EQ.But like EQ2 even classic EQ is dead. Killed by WoW and other stupid games.</blockquote>Know what sucks about wiping during an event or in the bottom of the dungeon?I have to get back to where I was at.Not only that, but if your group wipes and there IS a nasty death penalty, the risk of having group members get extremely [Removed for Content] off during said wipe goes up. Elitism goes up as well, and people tend to stick more to guild groups rather than PUGs.I've never understood the need for a harsh death penalty, and I've been playing since Kunark was released for EQ1.

Kir

10-27-2007, 06:38 PM

<cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>People don't want consequences, it's a common theme among this generation. Obviously it's being reflected in the attitudes of gamers now-a-days. Most Everquest 1 players are a bit older now, we remember when games were challenging not just ubber god mode all the time.I suppose all the accomplishment you felt for winning was so much better, that is why we liked classic EQ.But like EQ2 even classic EQ is dead. Killed by WoW and other stupid games.</blockquote>Know what sucks about wiping during an event or in the bottom of the dungeon?I have to get back to where I was at.Not only that, but if your group wipes and there IS a nasty death penalty, the risk of having group members get extremely [Removed for Content] off during said wipe goes up. Elitism goes up as well, and people tend to stick more to guild groups rather than PUGs.I've never understood the need for a harsh death penalty, and I've been playing since Kunark was released for EQ1.</blockquote>Because some people try to judge the real life worth of themselves with how good they are at an mmo./shrug I have never understood it. I do however play eve, which has the harshest death penalty in the genre right now. It sucks losing a months worth of work because of lag, and with open pvp its real easy to lose your stuff even with out all the lag problems. I love eve, but I love it for a whole different reason then I love eq2. I play eq2 for when I feel like being a carebear and enjoying the fun of the game.I play eve for the fun of killing other people... To me if they made EQ2 have harsh death penalities I would just quit and go play wow, why? Because EQ2 is the game I play when I don't want to deal with stupid time sinks or overly harsh penalities.

liveja

10-27-2007, 07:36 PM

<cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>people tend to stick more to guild groups rather than PUGs.</blockquote>You say that like it's something "bad".Guild groups FTW, PUGs FTL.

Femke

10-28-2007, 04:51 AM

((A delete message option would be nice <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

Haapy

10-28-2007, 05:42 AM

Here is a possible solution that might appeal to everyone: make a coupe of zones with an actual death penalty. Link them lore-wise to OoLS to explain it perhaps. Put a strong warning prior to zone-in for people "accidentally" stumbling on them. One heroic zone, one solo zone. Put some really nice items and tons of named mobs with very deep loot tables. Add some very interesting scripted events. Zones would be something like a cross between MMC (difficulty) and OoLS (theme). Items that drop would be very top of what is appropriate for heroic instance/solo loot with some unique fluff drops. Fluff drops could be unique mount (spinning gear platform?), unique looking cloaks (looks like pair of wings perhaps?), unique helmets (glasses, masks), cloth armor sets that look like plate armor. Something that would drive the willing into those zones over and over. With deep loot tables, people would have to run those zones many times if they want to get those items. Penalties could include 20% exp debt per death, shards, etc...This way those people that do not want any death penalty can stay happy with 99.9% of the game, while people that would like some RvR can have some nice rewards for their efforts. Just like no one is guaranteed every item, lore, quest without raiding, no one is guaranteed those nice items from death-penalty instances without some significant risks.

Tyrion

10-28-2007, 06:02 AM

<cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is a possible solution that might appeal to everyone: make a coupe of zones with an actual death penalty. Link them lore-wise to OoLS to explain it perhaps. Put a strong warning prior to zone-in for people "accidentally" stumbling on them. One heroic zone, one solo zone. Put some really nice items and tons of named mobs with very deep loot tables. Add some very interesting scripted events. Zones would be something like a cross between MMC (difficulty) and OoLS (theme). Items that drop would be very top of what is appropriate for heroic instance/solo loot with some unique fluff drops. Fluff drops could be unique mount (spinning gear platform?), unique looking cloaks (looks like pair of wings perhaps?), unique helmets (glasses, masks), cloth armor sets that look like plate armor. Something that would drive the willing into those zones over and over. With deep loot tables, people would have to run those zones many times if they want to get those items. Penalties could include 20% exp debt per death, shards, etc...This way those people that do not want any death penalty can stay happy with 99.9% of the game, while people that would like some RvR can have some nice rewards for their efforts. Just like no one is guaranteed every item, lore, quest without raiding, no one is guaranteed those nice items from death-penalty instances without some significant risks.</blockquote>I don't associate the possibility of experience debt, or shards as a risk. More importantly, I don't associate most death "penalties" as making anything in the game more difficult. Simply more tedious and annoying. I think item damage is the best way to handle 'death', as it forces you to expend resources for mistakes you have made; resources that could go to making your character better. Shards, debt and corpse runs convince me of nothing other than the fact that they couldn't think of anything better, not that anything beyond damage repair is needed. Quadruple repair costs if you like, that would get people's attention pretty quickly. But they don't because a mix of exp debt and item decay is more fair for those that lack funds.I should be rewarded with the "coolest" or best items in the game by defeating extremely challenging encounters, not by enduring stupid and pointless penalties that teach me nothing. Difficulty does not equate to tedium. This has been proven case in point with 'Camping'. The question really is not to ask yourself why you want to avoid dying, but rather why do you want to succeed?

Deggials

10-28-2007, 06:02 AM

how about u create 2 new servers (no toon transfers for say 1 year) one pve and one pvp , put whatever "harder death penalty" u want on it and leave the rest of the servers alone since not everyone feels the need for a new death penalty. This would also bring in those who want to start on a fresh server.

Haapy

10-28-2007, 06:29 AM

<cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is a possible solution that might appeal to everyone: make a coupe of zones with an actual death penalty. Link them lore-wise to OoLS to explain it perhaps. Put a strong warning prior to zone-in for people "accidentally" stumbling on them. One heroic zone, one solo zone. Put some really nice items and tons of named mobs with very deep loot tables. Add some very interesting scripted events. Zones would be something like a cross between MMC (difficulty) and OoLS (theme). Items that drop would be very top of what is appropriate for heroic instance/solo loot with some unique fluff drops. Fluff drops could be unique mount (spinning gear platform?), unique looking cloaks (looks like pair of wings perhaps?), unique helmets (glasses, masks), cloth armor sets that look like plate armor. Something that would drive the willing into those zones over and over. With deep loot tables, people would have to run those zones many times if they want to get those items. Penalties could include 20% exp debt per death, shards, etc...This way those people that do not want any death penalty can stay happy with 99.9% of the game, while people that would like some RvR can have some nice rewards for their efforts. Just like no one is guaranteed every item, lore, quest without raiding, no one is guaranteed those nice items from death-penalty instances without some significant risks.</blockquote>I don't associate the possibility of experience debt, or shards as a risk. More importantly, I don't associate most death "penalties" as making anything in the game more difficult. Simply more tedious and annoying. I think item damage is the best way to handle 'death', as it forces you to expend resources for mistakes you have made; resources that could go to making your character better. Shards, debt and corpse runs convince me of nothing other than the fact that they couldn't think of anything better, not that anything beyond damage repair is needed. Quadruple repair costs if you like, that would get people's attention pretty quickly. But they don't because a mix of exp debt and item decay is more fair for those that lack funds.I should be rewarded with the "coolest" or best items in the game by defeating extremely challenging encounters, not by enduring stupid and pointless penalties that teach me nothing. Difficulty does not equate to tedium. This has been proven case in point with 'Camping'. The question really is not to ask yourself why you want to avoid dying, but rather why do you want to succeed? </blockquote>You should want to both succeed AND avoid dying. This way you have a choice. There would only be 2 zones that carry risk beyond the rest of the game, so no one can really complain that their game is ruined because of some death penalty. The examples of shards and exp debt are just that - examples. Penalties could be made in other ways, including complete gear break on first death. But in MMOs the only real penalty is your time, NOTHING else. Even repairs that you extol as a "good" death penalty really mean more time spent acquiring those resources, which is once again, time and tedium, as you put it.