Hate caps confirmed and what it means

[Wilin]

<p>Well, Lockeye has confirmed that there is a 50% cap on both hate buffed and hate transfered. Incidentally some folks already knew this through whatever source, but here is the public confirmation.</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread.php?p=160536" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread.php?p=160536</a></p><p>So, given that coercer hate buff at Master 1 is 49%. (Hate nerfs were un-nerfed currently on test) This means 2 important things for us.</p><p>1) The coercer buff does not use a concentration slot so there's no reason for the dirge to use a concentration slot on hate buff because that 1% bonus (50-49) isn't doing much. Instead, the dirge can use that concentration slot for a better return.</p><p>2) Those of us that suspected for sometime that the AA STR 4th ability(10% hate) was doing nothing were almost correct. It was only doing 1% buff. So if you have a coercer with the hate master, it's fairly useless to get the 4th STR ability.</p>

[premiere]

This doesnt confirm anything except that somone posted a "supposed" pm from a dev saying somehting about a currently changed test hate update which has now been reverted possible reverting back the actual cap on hate which was porbably never on live.  Until a dev confirms this on the official forums referring to LIVE then ill take this all as hearsay.

[Wilin]

That's fair. EQ2 Flames is well known by the devs however and SOE's logo is on that post that I linked so I'm going to go with it until a dev jumps up on there or here and denies it. I've also heard this info from another source as well long before these changes were announced so...Believe it...Or Not. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Yourbestfriend]

Put Hate gain on your hate transfer.

[Vorlak]

Jaraxx@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Put Hate gain on your hate transfer. </blockquote>jaraxx is giving away 1337 strats again~ (is everybody listening?)

[edbaja]

I think it's true that it caps at 50% however I believe it's like haste.. You can have 100% Haste but you really only have 50%. SOE math. Therefore, Coercer's and Dirge's together are 100% (Number) and 50% true hate gain.

[Wilin]

Jaraxx@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Put Hate gain on your hate transfer. </blockquote><p>/looks at his swashy</p><p>Yes, Mr. Fancy Hat. I want you to channel raw hate. Yes, you can keep the feather. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[premiere]

<p>So lets say for mathematical purposes you have a swash who does 4k DPS</p><p>4k DPS</p><p>4000 hate gained per second 1080 transferred total gain of 2929 per second</p><p>Add 49% hate gain</p><p>5960 Hate gained per second 1609 transferred total gain of 4351 per second</p><p>The tank gains an extra 529 hate per second</p><p>The swash gains an extra 1422 hate per second</p><p>So atm if you can stay an extra 893 hate per second above your swash then this would be feasable /shrug.</p>

[Belce]

It does say that the cap for transfer and buff are each 50%.   That means that you can transfer 50% of your agro to someone and that someone can have their hate gain buffed by 50% as well.  For max agro gain on the MT, transfer agro with a hate gain buff from a swash to the MT and have a hate gain buff on the tank as well.  For a group with MT, dirge, coercer, swash and 2 healers.  Here the dirge would hate gain buff the MT, the coercer would hate gain buff the swash and the swash transfers to the MT.   Agro cascades on the MT.

[Wilin]

<cite>premiere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So lets say for mathematical purposes you have a swash who does 4k DPS</p><p>4k DPS</p><p>4000 hate gained per second 1080 transferred total gain of 2929 per second</p><p>Add 49% hate gain</p><p>5960 Hate gained per second 1609 transferred total gain of 4351 per second</p><p>The tank gains an extra 529 hate per second</p><p>The swash gains an extra 1422 hate per second</p><p>So atm if you can stay an extra 893 hate per second above your swash then this would be feasable /shrug</p></blockquote>That's a single target. When you're fighting a group of mobs and the swashie's hurricane is hitting multiple mobs, how does the hate transfer work? Does the tank build hate with all of the mobs that the swashie is hitting? If so, that's a great way to add hate to groups.

[Belce]

I would say that the hate transfer of any class is the transfer of the hate they generate on the target they generate it on directed towards the target of their hate transfer.  The swash is getting hate generated with target x, a portion of that hate goes to the target of their hate transfer.  They can't manufacture hate generated at their point and have it apply to a different target.  AoE attacks by a swash transfer a portion of each AoE hit to their transfer target.  So yes, AoE attacks from classes with hate transfers allow the target of their hate transfer to maintain agro with all affected by the AoE attacks.

[EvilIguana9]

With hate buffs the cap mechanic is perfectly clear to me.  You can increase your hate by 50% above what you'd be doing without the buff and no more.  Hate transfers are less clear.  If I have amends on someone (39% transfer), and they have a 20% transfer on me, exactly what is happening?  Am I getting a straight 50% of their hate?  What if I have amends on someone else.  Is the cap 50% per person or 50% for me total?  If I go over 50% combined on two targets which target gets their buff % truncated?  If I have a transfer on a guy doing 3000 DPS and one on a guy doing 500 I'd rather steal 10% less hate on guy two than guy one.  The only semi logical method of capping hate transfers would be to cap total hate gain FROM them to 50% over your personal hate gain, else you have a cap that works in a completely unpredictable and inconsistent manner. 

[Wilin]

<p>I was thinking about this as well and this is how I interpret it, but who knows if it's correct?</p><p>Since no class gets a >=50% transfer, it seems like a hate transfer cap would always be based on the recipient of the transfer. So, no one can receive more than a 50% transfer total. And that 50% is simply based on the % reported on the buffs, not on anyone's hate. So if you've got a 40% amends and a 24% transfer, you're losing 14% of the transfer. If you happen to have amends on the transfer, it's probably the same situation as far as caps go, you're losing 14% of the transfer. The game is probably literally just adding % on you and capping you at 50% without regard to what the most beneficial split would be.</p><p>If that is the case, pallies benefit less from a transfer than all of the other tanks.</p>

[Sir_Halbarad]

Does that work? Hate Buff on the Hate Giver? Isn't it that Hate Buff only works on Hate CA's? Only CA's with a Hate Value are affected by Increase Hate Buff? Like Confront, Protection, Inflaming Defense, Vindictive Strike, Goading Assault, Reinforcement, Rescue? Wouldn't that mean the Hate Buff on a Swash would only work if the Swash used his taunt? And, is it possible that you have a bug that we had in T6 where Amends on somebody transferring hate would cancel both effects? Did they clear that? Many questions, I know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zo]

wow, where to begin.. - Hate gain and hate transfer are two completely unrelated mechanics.  Both individually cap at 50%... apparently. - Hate gain on your swash would only work if you're a dps freak, jaraxx style.  (str/stam)  And even then a swash could pull with Inspiration. - Hate gain boosts ALL your hate - DPS, Procs, CAs, Inflaming Defense, Swarthy'd hate.  It's quite obvious when tanking sans hate gain. - Seems like a Pally would cap out transfer with amends on a target and a swarthy, interesting. - A Pally can not amends a hate transfer'er.  They don't bug, but only the last skill cast sticks.

[EvilIguana9]

Zoso@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>- A Pally can not amends a hate transfer'er.  They don't bug, but only the last skill cast sticks. </blockquote> That was supposed to have been fixed.  If it's true again then Paladins are once again getting it in the [Removed for Content].  Furthermore, what you describe as not bugged is exactly what the bug was.  If the skill shows up as being active but is actually doing nothing then it is bugged plain and simple, irrespective of the casting order. 

[Jackula]

When I first started to raid tank I had starter gear and survivability was an issue.  I felt I really need three healers (templar, defiler, warden) to survive.  We rolled best with (Guardian, Templar, Defiler, Warden, Dirge, and Swashbuckler or Assassin). I got better gear and survivability was less of an issue.  I was hesitant at first (ie, I needed a LOT of convincing) but we dropped the warden and picked up a Coercer.  I grew to love it.  I still love it.  It helped my dps, my scouts dps, added thoughtsnap (mini rescue), buffed the groups AGI and INT, and with Channel she could redistribute group power for bad power problem fights.  It allowed the dirge to stop playing Bria's (power regen song) and add a better song in there too.  For the harder encounters we'd swap a Warden back in  the MT group but didn't need to often. Now that the EQ2 community is assuming (and I'll go along with that assumption) there is a 50% cap on hate gain (the dirge and coercer both buff this), some players want to take the coercer out of the MT group.  I'd still rather keep the coercer and have her put her Enraging Demeanor (hate gain buff) on me which is superior to the dirge's from a % perspective and continue with her Ease skill (power regen buff), and have the dirge NOT give me his Hyran's Seething Sonata (aggression/hate gain buff) or play Bria's (power regen) allowing him to instead buff: group parry, group stoneskin, group STR/AGI, group DPS, and group disease damage proc.  Those last two songs help my dps, the dps of my hate transferer (swashbuckler or assassin), and the dirges dps immensely. Am I being a greedy [insert bad word here] by wanting to keep both the dirge and coercer? If we don't keep the coercer, where is the best spot for her?  A scout group? I really want to keep them both, but I'm asking you guys for a confirmation or a reality check.  Maybe I need one because I want to keep them both and it bothers me that they want to mess with what is an awesome MT group set up for me.  Opinions?  Thanks.

[salle]

You'd gain more from having both assasin and swashie in MT group hate wise I think. and you can drop either dirge or coercer if you've gone down str line to get those 10% more hate. IF and only IF this is true.