The Good Old Days

[Liyle]

Someone asked in another thread what the old crafting system was like. I'm starting this thread for the elder TS people to post their reminiscences. Setting the stage: In the old days I ran a Jeweler. My inn room was made up like a shop and in it was a crude level jewelry station and forge. I had a waiting area for customers, of which I had many. Now about crafting. We had what were called subcombines or subs. These were the parts and pieces that you needed to assemble in subsequent combines to produce a finished item. At the base of the sub hierarchy was chemistry. Almost all combines required chemicals, made by Alchemists from raws. To make base level subs, you would combine chemicals with raws... a sheet or plate (for example) that would be later turned into a finished part like buckles for backpacks, hilts for swords, chocolate for cakes and so on. A set of Primary and Secondary parts was combined into a final product. No crafter could make the specialized parts of another crafting specialty, so if you were a Jeweler you needed to buy or trade with an Alchemist and whoever made the part you needed (like a stud for an earring) for your final combines. Some subs you could make yourself, like the rough gem which you could make into a polished gem. These gems could also be sold to other crafters to make their items, so the parts you made for your own items were needed by other crafters, too. This was called "interdependency" and it was built into the crafting sphere so that no one except Provisioners could make a complete item unless they got at least one part from another specialty. Alchemists needed glass vials to put poisons in. Scribes needed quills, paper and ink. Tailors needed patterns and studs, and so on... Everyone was very busy buying, selling and trading. You had to get out there and meet other crafters or you simply couldn't make anything. Some of us specialized in making parts for those who liked to spend their time making final items. Also, in order to sell on the market you had to be in your room and logged in. I can't remember if you sold out of your backpack originally or if house vaults existed all along, but basically you had a marketboard in your room from which people could buy your stuff directly or they could pay the commission and buy off the broker NPC. People frequently left their character logged in and standing in their rooms when they were afk so when you went into someone's room there might or might not be someone actually there behind the toon. It was always a hoot to scare some unsuspecting Scout who thought I was afk and I wasn't. Hehe...  The 10am server down time logged everyone out, which meant that all sales stopped until people started logging their merchants in again. If you were on top of things you might get back up before your competition and have the market for whatever you made all to yourself for a little while. There were a lot of people playing and so competition was a factor. Prices were at a much lower scale back then. I think I got about 10s for an iron buckle, 20s for a carbonite one. Most of the time I sold them by the stack (20) or traded for chemicals, parts or finished items I needed. Most of us traded at a rate of 2 sets of componets plus cost of fuel per item. We didn't see many rares so the world ran on regular harvested raws. A good many adventurers harvested and marketed their harvest. I liked to harvest my own raws so I usually started my day harvesting then back to my room to sell and craft parts on my home workstation. People wonder why there were so many levels of crafting stations for sale. For one thing, they were expensive and guild level dependent. So, maybe you could only afford a Crude level one. But there was a practical side too. Parts that were Secondary components could be Crude quality without any impact on the finished piece. XP resided mainly in the initial combine, which was scaled from Pristine down, so you always wanted to make that first one Pristine. After that Crude was usually desirable. You got a lot less XP for making them but you made so many so fast that grinding them out on a Crude machine limited the quality and you didn't risk going an extra level. This was an issue because of stacking requirements. Crude did not stack with Shaped so if you had the odd Shaped part you had to have an extra slot to store it until you boobooed enough Shaped to make a stack. Having your own workstation also let you stay in your room so that you could sell while crafting. At that time you could craft directly into a pre-existing stack in your house vault, so you would make a first item, put it in the vault and keep the vault open while you autofilled the stack. This made daily topping off easy too. Remember that you couldn't sell while you were in the tradeskill instance or anywhere else outside of your inn room. Crafting had a good bit of inventory and record keeping to it. You needed stocks of parts and chemistry, and you had to manage the levels of how much backstock for your current vs previous tiers. The best crafters kept detailed reports on which items sold at what rate and who bought them. If you noticed someone was buying a lot of your parts you would send them a Tell or Email and see if you could cut a deal with them... a discount on quantity, trades for subs or whatever. You got to know which people had the class you crafted for and they were always interested in buying new armor when they leveled to the next tier, so you wanted to keep up with their progress. Sometimes you would deliver items to the field for good customers so they wouldn't have to make a trip into town. Or for someone aligned with the other side (FP vs Queynos), you would meet at a safe area to give them their goods. There was a small but growing system of Apprentices. When you were in the lower levels of each tier you could only make the most basic parts. As you advanced, you could crafter better stuff. You didn't get to make final products right away, so there was a period of time that you couldn't make anything an adventurer wanted. So, a lot of us would cut deals with newbies for simple parts (remember quality was not an issue) in exchange for fuel. raws and coin. We didn't have to waste time making lowbie parts and they got the xp and funds to continue. Also they got trade secrets and instruction from us. Also, if you were into making finals you could make previous tier finals while XPing off parts from the current tier. That kept the parts flowing, too. It was a very different system then. I can still remember someone posting here (back when we had forums for each crafting class) that someday no one would understand why they were putting roots into a sword, that it would just end up a laundry list of meaningless raws. And so it went... and so it is.

[Wrapye]

During that time the alchemist was king.  No one could make a final product without the products made by an alchemist, except the provisioner.  I remember how difficult it was at times to find a sage to make the patterns so that my tailor could make something other than backpacks.  Armorers were even more dependent, not having any final products that didn't require a pattern. As far as I could see, rather than drive crafters to trade and communicate, it spurred people to develop alts who were crafters that could make the subcombines that other alts needed.  Since quality of the subcombines didn't matter except for the primary one, it drove the use of the macros/bots that would craft while you were afk.  I didn't use them, but for the much of the time that those crafting rule were in effect I was unemployed, so I had plenty of time to craft.

[Sapphirius]

<p>You originally sold out of your inventory. There were no house vaults until slightly later in the game... a bit before they introduced gemoancy, woodcrafting, weaving, and thaumaturgy books so the crafting interdependency was not as severe. Prices were lower then because the game was new. Inflation had not kicked into full gear with money burning holes in people's pockets. More people were playing then because EQ2 was new and different.</p><p>My alchemist spent hours chained to a chemistry table making nothing but WORTs and the occasional poison. It was a rare day when someone asked her for a combat art. My weaponsmith actually made weapons of real value and ranged throwing ammunition. She was also frequenctly one-shotted by the forge or often brought close to death and then killed by an unlucky mis-timed buff. I remember losing the pristing on a steel longsword because the forge killed me. Hehehe. Good times, though replacing the steel was painful.</p>

[Calthine]

We had crafting societies.  I remember when Wayfarer's dinged level 10; suddenly everyone in Qeynos was crafting there for the Tier 1 subs that were available.  People were five deep at the crafting stations!  The lag was a challenge. I remember needing hilts to make bows, and not being able to find a weaponsmith to make them for two weeks.  I'd bribe them by trading even-up for staves.

[Kaldrin]

Ahh... subs. I joined the game at release and I remember those...

[Wrapye]

My bane, when crafting with my alchemist, were inks.  I would get orders for stacks of ink from sages, and it would take me an hour to make a stack.  My hands would be hurting afterwards.  Then again, it is how I met the player who is leader of the guild that my main is in.

[Sapphirius]

I think ink-making was the only thing I was happy to see go with the tradeskill revamp. If I could burn things in game, then I would have had a veritable explosion of fireworks in North Qeynos from the piles of ink I would set on fire. Though I have no love lost for WORTs either.

[Mantell]

<p>I remember this system and miss it.</p><p>I didn't get into alchemy until after the "golden age" of alchemists had passed. But an alchy could still make worts (washes, oils, resins and tempers) faster and with lower fuel cost than cross-class crafters. That difference in fuel cost was often the profit margin. So I got a lot of business from that. I'd make 30 slot boxes full of stacks of worts and sell them overnight, making 2 silver on each one (and there were complaints about price gouging!)</p><p>Adept Is were rare. The rares to make Adept IIIs were rarer still, and all classes used the same two rares. Masters were unknown. So there was a burgeoning demand for App IVs, which I could make all by myself, though it took an extremely long time.</p><p>1: Make worts, needed one of each I think, resin, oil, wash. Got up to four per combine.</p><p>2: Make dye, each dye took different ingredients and a resin I believe. I'd only get one per combine. But I needed to make my dyes in groups of four because the worts came out in groups of four. Had to get pristine or I couldn't make pristine ink with it.</p><p>3. Make ink, each ink took different ingredients and I think took an oil. Only one per combine, etc. Had to get pristine.</p><p>4. Make the App IV. </p><p>So it took four combines to make an App IV., all of them had to be pristine. Each combine took two or three minutes and if it ended up anything but pristine the final product would be an App III or App II, which was a complete waste of time.</p><p>A lot of work, but it made the crafting system remotely fun, rather than just the ineffective means to making money that it is now. It set up a community of crafters. The crafting channels were always full of people talking and comparing notes, making deals. People would put up their LFW tag and leave the dungeon to craft something for you to make 5 gold.</p><p>At that time the guild I was in was essentially a crafting guild, with two or three people making high-end items while everyone else was helping supply them with raws and subs. People would ask for a tailor and I'd refer them to someone in the guild. And players really needed the stuff we were making. It wasn't like you could find a better weapon than an imbued fulginate longsword unless you went on a raid. And you'd need the longsword to go on the raid.</p><p>I don't miss the sale system, though. Staying logged in all day and all night was a pain.</p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1: Make worts, needed one of each I think, resin, oil, wash. Got up to four per combine.</p><p>2: Make dye, each dye took different ingredients and a resin I believe. I'd only get one per combine. But I needed to make my dyes in groups of four because the worts came out in groups of four. Had to get pristine or I couldn't make pristine ink with it.</p><p>3. Make ink, each ink took different ingredients and I think took an oil. Only one per combine, etc. Had to get pristine.</p><p>4. Make the App IV. </p></blockquote><p>Motor memory speaking here.</p><p>1 - Make WORTs, 1 oil, 2 washes, no resins. </p>

[Eriol]

And remember, WORTs were one each per combine.  NOT 4.  Changed quickly, but not right away. And I don't care what memories you think you have, but grinding out subs ALL DAY LONG to do a "bit" of real crafting (end products) was NOT fun.  I do NOT miss those days at all.  What I miss were the "wholesalers were stocked with subs" beta days, where you only made your primary component chain, and the end products, NOT 20+ of other "crap" just to get one exp-giving combine.  Not to mention the VERY unbalanced OLD tradeskill buffs.  You know, the ones that lasted more than one round so that you could actually TALK to people in the TS channels?

[Zard]

<p>Ah, the days when Alchemists formed cartels to control the supply and price of WORTS on which <i>everyone</i> (except Provisioners) was dependent on -- just like <b>OPEC</b>   (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC</a>)  I would <i>not</i> want to return to those days; and I have a T5 Alchemist.</p><p>I liked it when they added cross-class artisan skills (binding, geocraft, etc.) so we were less dependent on other crafters to make anything useful but I still hated making inks for my Sage (it was mind-numbingly boring). I wouldn't terribly mind returing to that era of crafting but I was always running out of room to store interim (aka sub-) combines, things like ink, buckles or pommels, so had to meticulously plan each crafting session so I had <i>exactly</i> what I needed with no leftovers.</p><p>The current system lacks the "feel" of being an actual artisan but I prefer it over previous eras.</p><p>I wish there were more recipes that required <i>dropped</i> components, like the "Nest", "DFC" or "Unrest" recipes, and/or required crafting them in unusual places, like the crafting areas in Permafrost, DFC, etc.</p>

[Martrae]

Ugh, I do not miss the 'good old days' AT ALL. Trying to craft something only to run out of a component. Run to check the broker. 20s for a thingamabob?!? When I need 10 of them?!? No way! Log on an alt to make the missing components. Dangit out of WORTs. Log onto yet another alt only to realize all the roots were on the first. By the time you did all the logging on and off and sub-combine (or breaking down and buying them and tossing away any profit) it'd take you several hours to advance a tiny bit.

[Krontak]

bah forget that.  I used to be stuck for days at a time trying to find reasonable prices for components.  I never want to rely on another gamer again for anything in that aspect.

[Liyle]

Oh yeah! Tradeskill Societies! The higher your Society got (you could only belong to one) the more components your NPC vendor had available. Even WORTS could be had at one time.

[Oakum]

<p>I think the best crafting was actually right before the system and its products were nerfed to almost uselessness.</p><p>You could make your own or use others to do it cheaper. Thought was required or you ended up wasting time. </p><p>Now the only thought is do you harvest or buy raws off the broker before you go take  your place on the assembly line like an unskilled laborer making dollar store merchandise.  </p><p>I wouldn't have minded batch processing though. But hey, its so much funner now to make such high quality items (app 4 or common crafted armor/weapons anyone?) though such a fun process (can one step be called a process?) that I am spending as much time crafting as I am adventuring (not) since the tradeskill revamp. </p>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<p>.. The "good" old Days of Crafting .. where .. after an hour of crafting I wanted to kill someone in RL .. </p><p>meh.   </p><p>I do miss the Crafting Societies and the promise of what they could have been.   </p><p>I do sorta miss WORTs, about the only part of sub-crafting I enjoyed.   And, No, I never price gouged anyone.   I was usually only making them for the Hubby and those few hundred or so that I actually placed on the broker were generally cheap purely because I was usually only getting rid of excess stock to make room for the next tier supplies and at the time remember we had to be "online" to sell .. so I wanted them gone fast.</p><p>We got burnt out of crafting real fast with the "old" way.  It was easier to just get the finished items we needed from our resisdent crafter in guild, who was retired, played all day and had time to sit there endlessly mashing buttons, change characters for supplies and subs .. of course he totally burnt out from the game after T6 ... </p><p>About the only other thing I miss of the "old" Crafting way  .. is the Provisioning .. in <b>moderation</b> the "old" way of cooking was actually fun.   I liked the way of taking raws and turning them into a 1st step food and then taking that food and turning it into a better food.    I suppose, if it had been that way instead of raw / refine / double refine / triple refine / craft1 / craft2 / craft3 .. I would probably have been crying over the loss of the old system, too .. </p><p>Otherwise, I would rather just push forward and see what Domino can do to bring forth "goodness" in crafting.  <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Liyle]

Oh! Almost forgot! There were different stats on different qualities of items like armor and jewelry, so some people didn't even want Pristine. Also the level required to wear it got less with quality so lower level characters could buy lesser quality earlier than the next tier. It often had better stats than their current tier Pristine. And Mastercrafted could be worn at x0 instead of x2. There was no imbuing early on. Also everything had bizarre names. You really had to be on top of knowing what stuff was and did. I can't honestly say that I could go back to crafting the old way. It was very intense but I enjoyed it (being retired myself.) I guess when it went flat I found other stuff to do (adventuring)... just leveled my girls up to 70 and stopped crafting for the most part. In this post I just wanted to describe the old way, not really make any judgments.

[Te'ana]

<p>Thanks for sharing your memories <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think your post will help many of the new people here understand why crafters are both for and against the changes being made. My first character was a Provisoner and I miss the old recipes. Way back at the beginning no food or drink had stats. Back then the only difference between a crude/shaped/standard/pristine food or drink was how long it lasted. The return of chocolate and creamcheese is just a fun bit of nostalgia. People used to buy their food and drink based upon how cool the name was and how long it lasted. Cabbage Kahlish never sold and you couldn't produce enough of chocolate covered fayberries <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> When stats were added customers became a little more discriminating <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Today we only make statless stuff until we are in the middle of a tier and then the recipes use rocks, meat, roots, and loam; real yummy stuff <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And you get one for less than a pristine and 2 for making pristine, but all stack now as they aren't labeled diferently.</p><p>We had different harvestables in the begginning too. For example, roots used to have herbs and wierd stuff used to make WORTs.</p>

[Aker]

Thank you Liyle for time to write all of this and remind us on old days. I wouldn't ever say that they where perfect ( far from it ) but I miss them, simply crafting had point. Some thing of dependence between classes for subcomponents might didn't work best, but over all crafting had community, people needed other people so we where getting to know one another and might even become friends after some business we did. Right now is just lets go in the dark (I'm evil side <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) do what I need to be done and get lost from there.

[Liyle]

A couple of anecdotes from the old days... If you goofed up your station could kill you, and it wasn't unusual to see bodies lying around the Forge room. But the Stove, for some reason, didn't hit hard or maybe not at all so it was considered to be pretty safe. One day I walked into the room and there was a huge red haired barbarian dead in front of a stove and I called to my hubby (a Prov) "OMG! That guy got killed by the Stove! They've changed it! Should I rez him?" We laughed till we cried a minute later after we realized he had only Feigned Death and gone afk. The Tradeskills were really busy most evenings except Friday night. I remember being down there one Friday night all alone as usual (my husband worked late Fridays a lot of the time back then) and I happened to stumble on one other poor soul working at the Forge (a Kerran.) I opened a trade with him and passed him a drink saying "Here, buddy, have one on me! It's Friday night!" He passed me back a yellow spotted butterfly, which was very rare at the time. I think maybe he didn't speak English because he never said a word. It was very sweet. We went about our work and I never saw him again.

[Terron]

I didn't start playing until after the ability for everyone to make your own worts was added. Whan I think of the "old days" of crafting I think of the system just before LU24 (which was about a year ago now). My highest crafter was 46. There were problems with the old system, but some good bits got removed along with the bad. I liked the little bit of dependancy that remained - on alchemists for extracts needed for imbuing. It seemed right that the most power created items should require the skills of more than one craftsman. The making of items in stages gave more of a sense of an involvement in the process. There were too many steps involved before (making ink took 3 steps), but now there are too few, at most 2 for imbued items. You used to get to move around when crafting a bit, using different stations for different steps. Now most classes use only a single station.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didn't start playing until after the ability for everyone to make your own worts was added. Whan I think of the "old days" of crafting I think of the system just before LU24 (which was about a year ago now). My highest crafter was 46. There were problems with the old system, but some good bits got removed along with the bad. I liked the little bit of dependancy that remained - on alchemists for extracts needed for imbuing. It seemed right that the most power created items should require the skills of more than one craftsman. The making of items in stages gave more of a sense of an involvement in the process. There were too many steps involved before (making ink took 3 steps), but now there are too few, at most 2 for imbued items. You used to get to move around when crafting a bit, using different stations for different steps. Now most classes use only a single station. </blockquote> Ink took 5 combines, actually, or at least common ink did.  You needed to make washes, too.  But yeah, provisioners were considered lucky, then, too, because they only needed 1 station.

[Liyle]

There used to be two by-products from making rare items: loams and ingots. Loams could be used to make glass vials for rare poisons and potions. Ingots were used to make rare arrows. No one ever knew if the rare arrows really were better but we thought they might be. Sketchy types would put ingots up on the market at high prices hoping to dupe people into thinking they were rare ores.

[Calthine]

There were common by products too.  Woodworkers used to make totalms out of scraps of wood, which were a by product of refining the wood.  You got differing amounts depending on what level of quality you took the refine to.  Eventually most Woodworkers were literally drowning in wood scraps!  It was then discovered that you could make a tidy profit by making turned lumber and vendor dumping it. This eventually led to all scrafted stuff being no-value (unlsellable to NPC's) for a couple weeks while they re-wrote the vendors to offer the value of used components for an item. 

[Sapphirius]

<p>Hehehe. Yep, 1 combine for the oil, 1 for washes, 3 for the ink for a total of 5 combines if you're just making one vial. If you made them in batches and averaged it out, it was actually 4 combines per vial. I made up boxes of ink at a time and would fill one teak box with oil and two with washes. The end result would be a 4th box full of ink and a 5th full of loams to go to my jeweler for glassware. On days where I was actually grinding up skills by making app4s, I would fill a 6th box with washes and, after making my box full of inks, proceed to make app4s until I had no room left to hold them. I'd sell them to the vender and rinse and repeat because no one on my server wanted app4s. They hunted for ad1s and farmed nodes for ad3s.</p><p>I call those Sapphy's slow days because she moved at a snail's pace with 6 teak strong boxes on her. There are a few good things about the old days I miss. Most things I do not miss at all. If they came back, I would throw my hands up in frustration but get used to them again. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would deal with it as I've always done.</p><p>I do <i>not</i> miss being chained to my chemsitry table for days making inks, of which took 5 to 8 minutes per vial.</p><p>I do <i>not</i> miss having to rely on a jeweler (which were hard to find) to make my glassware, which is why I made a jeweler alt to do all my vials and bottles. Rely on another player when I don't know him from Adam? Heck no. I just made alts to produce the components I needed. That way I never had to worry about paying some jacked up prices for components or not being able to find anyone to make them for me.</p><p>I do <i>not</i> miss being killed my tradeskill station because of an unlucky critical failure or mis-timed buff while buffing preventatively. I especially do <i>not</i> miss losing the pristine on a rare combine because a critical falure killed me.</p><p>I do <i>not</i> miss taking 15 ot 20 minutes to reach my bank and pile in a stage full of WORTs or dyes because I needed room for a different stage and then having to run 15 or 20 mintues back to the tradeskill station, work some more, clear some space, and then run back to the bank for the stage that I stored away. (I never could understand why they didn't have a banker inside the zones. They had a broker.)</p><p>I do <i>not</i> miss spending hours skilling up my geomancy once SOE nerfed interdependency so I wouldn't have to make those long bank runs to make my glassware on a jeweler alt.</p><p>I do <i>not</i> miss how broken the TS buffs were. That was fixed quite a bit in the months to come after release.</p><p>The main thing I do <i>not</i> miss was that, after spending a week chained to my station making inks for sages and jewelers, dyes for carpenters, making WORTs for everyone else, I was the grumpiest, most antisocial witch you ever had the misfortune to meet. Then I would leave the game for a few days just to get away from it. It burned me out that badly.</p><p>So yeah, the new system is far from perfect. We're using a ton more raws, but we're harvesting more at a time too. We eliminated subcomponents which made us more involved in the process, but we restored a little bit of our playing time to actually <i>play</i> the game and enjoy our real lives when not chained to a station. Anybody remember how long it took to craft a longsword before the TS revamp? My monk could tell you. Many times, she was invited to a guild group but had a "quick" order to fill for some rare sword before she left. Her group would be halfway through the instance or nearly done by the time she finished that order and mailed it off.</p><p>Those "good old days" weren't quite as good as you seem to remember them being. It's not unlike the phenomena surrounding past presidencies. While the president's in office, there's a ton of problems and nobody likes him. Once he out of office, all anyone can talk about was how wonderful he was and all the good that happened during his presidency.</p>

[Liyle]

As the gentle reader can easily see, the olden days were not without controversy. Strong opinions were held on both sides. Hardcore crafters pleaded for maintaining a complex and obfuscated system that was challenging and community oriented. Others (wanting to have a life outside of the Norath tradeskills) begged for a kinder, quicker, easier experience. Just as some prefer to catch, kill and clean their dinner before they even think about slicing, dicing and pre-heating... others prefer the modern convenience of 30 seconds: freezerpack to microwave. And in the end, the microwave always wins. Unfortunately the frozen dinners came in only one flavor. C'est la vie. Hope you like turkey... hundreds and hundreds of turkeys...

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Liyle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just as some prefer to catch, kill and clean their dinner before they even think about slicing, dicing and pre-heating... others prefer the modern convenience of 30 seconds: freezerpack to microwave. And in the end, the microwave always wins. Unfortunately the frozen dinners came in only one flavor. C'est la vie. Hope you like turkey... hundreds and hundreds of turkeys... </blockquote><p>A rather unfair observation. You forgot the middle group. People who like to pick up their ingredients from the grocery store and cook it themselves. Forget the microwave.</p><p>Even though the new system cut out the "catch, kill and clean" aspect of tradeskills, I would hardly compare it to popping a frozen dinner in the microwave. Tradeskilling is still a time consumive process that most players don't want to mess with. You want frozen dinner? Go back to EQ1 where a combine was just clicking a button and BAM! It was done, no reactive or preventative buffing. Or go to WoW, where a combine requires no more skill than clicking one button titled "Create All" and going afk for half an hour, and you can go from beginning skill to max skill in less than a day so long as you have all the mats.</p><p>You may not care for the current system in EQ2, but I'd say it's established a pretty good middle ground.</p>

[Kaldrin]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Liyle wrote: <p>You want frozen dinner? Go back to EQ1 where a combine was just clicking a button and BAM! It was done, no reactive or preventative buffing. Or go to WoW, where a combine requires no more skill than clicking one button titled "Create All" and going afk for half an hour, and you can go from beginning skill to max skill in less than a day so long as you have all the mats.</p></blockquote> Or World of Warcraft. Get three things together, make them. Just point and click. I think Diablo II called it a Horadric Cube. Not a great thing to base your crafting system off of. I more or less like the 'how' so far, but I would like to be able to make more than 2 cups of coffee at the same time. I'm waiting to see about the 'what' is created later. I just have to gain about 40 tradeskill levels before I figure that part out. <i>Edit: Or maybe make a crafted item called a Percolator...</i>

[Sapphirius]

Hehehehe. You got me giggling over here.

[pointytail]

Ah, the Good Ole Tedious Days. Brings back memories reading this thread. While not around for the original interdependacy, (Started in May '05) still found the crafting system to be quite interesting. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Annoying when learning it but easy once learned, it was great for rewarding people who actually took the time (and time and more time *snooooooze*) to grind their way up. And maybe a bit of pride in their work, given how long it took to make anything. You don't appreciate anything until you have to make it yourself. Well... I didn't make the final set of combines for a pair of Ebon Chainmail, but I know I spent a good 6 hours just making all the subs. x_x Crafting back then had it's good and bad points (Just like these days, surprise surprise!) but it's way easier to explain the current system to a newcomer then the previous system.

[Liyle]

You are absolutely correct. We never did get as far down the slope as WoW. If you remember tho, the arguments were mostly centered around "black box" crafting, pro and con. At the time there was a contingent who wanted EQ-WoW. For the record, I don't hunt, kill and dress my own food... and I use my microwave all the time. I do, however, make bobbin lace for fun... about one inch square per hour with hundreds of bobbins wound with threads finer than hair... so perhaps it's just a different perspective on what is boring and frustrating.

[Calthine]

Kretyn@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Crafting back then had it's good and bad points (Just like these days, surprise surprise!) but it's way easier to explain the current system to a newcomer then the previous system. </blockquote> Boy, ain't that the truth!  I very much enjoyed the, hm, let's call it the Immersion Factor in launch-era EQ2 crafting.  I feel there's an element missing from the existing system, but I can't decide if it's a complexity or desirability factor.  Perhaps both.  Of course, my main crafter is maxed on everything now.  I had a blast when Transmuting came out, maybe I just need a new Tier to conquer.

[Deson]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kretyn@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Crafting back then had it's good and bad points (Just like these days, surprise surprise!) but it's way easier to explain the current system to a newcomer then the previous system. </blockquote> Boy, ain't that the truth!  I very much enjoyed the, hm, let's call it the Immersion Factor in launch-era EQ2 crafting.  I feel there's an element missing from the existing system, but I can't decide if it's a complexity or desirability factor.  Perhaps both.  Of course, my main crafter is maxed on everything now.  I had a blast when Transmuting came out, maybe I just need a new Tier to conquer. </blockquote>It's both but since they hit at the same time it's hard to quantify it. Crafting itself being an esoteric experience more than practical in games of this nature, tends to attract people who hold attachments to esoteric feelings. There are also other factors like from my view, many of the concepts were sound but the execution was horrid. We also have to consider that lacking actual content, those little things added up to a significant portion of the crafting experience. I think just about all the concepts from the original system are able to be brought back; there is a more solid foundation to build on now and not a lot of baggage to work through. That said, I personally hope they tinker more with product(desirability) and content(like societies) than process since that's so easy to mess up. I don't think you need a new tier so much as actual purpose Calthine and our current lack of content/purpose beyond being merchants allows the grind to substitute for meaningful play.

[Didi]

<p>Ah, the good old days. </p><p>I remember the good old days.  It took approximately 15 minutes to make any item (and that was after we were able to make all our subcomponents ourselves).  I remember that.</p><p>I also remember my first request to decorate a 5-room Qeynos home.</p><p>5 room home ... at least 400 items ... x 15 minutes each ... 100 hours of work, and that's not even counting the time spent harvesting or actually placing the furniture, which probably adds another 10 hours or so.  There is no way that I can possibly charge anybody enough to make it profitable to spend 110 hours of my time to decorate their home.  </p><p>It was completely unrealistic to even DREAM of making a profit as a carpenter decorating the larger homes.  I did it for fun and for friendship, but my god those 5 rooms ...!  when I finally finished that house I swore off ever, ever doing a 5-room decoration again.  It's only the removal of subcombines that makes it an option for me once again.</p><p>So yes, when subcombines were removed, I did a happy carpenter dance.  I won't say there was nothing I liked about the original concept of tradeskills, but only the removal of subcombines even makes my profession feasable now, IMO.</p>

[selch]

<p>Crafting was not fun back then, not fun now... Now you waste less time for same dumb stuff... Why I became crafter? To craft my own goods, to craft to have some sales. Yet, grinding part was most boring part. Stick to different types of machines, calculate 2 numbers overhead etc. etc. Some actually saying this "talent", "fun".</p><p>People are just fooling themselves about crafting being fun. It is just taking items were fun because you could decorate house, or kill something better than your lame quest rewards. Giving x20 prices to items you create was evil fun (because you changed 5 machines to do that, what a lame excuse)  </p>

[hellfire]

paying 1pp+ for advance books and people paying 25+ gp per t5 app 4....the good ole days <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Image_Vain]

Nice!

[Terron]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>While generally true(see SWG), it depends on their business goals. If a system is failing to do what they want it to and/or also failing monetarily to cover it's development/to convince them to stay the course, it's really hard to say it was a bad idea. Speaking as both a crafter and customer of sorts, you're going to have a hard time convincing people who see the lower prices, higher product volume(especially arrows and chain) and ease of commissioning a crafter for an order(again arrows and chain) that keeping the old status quo for the niche that liked it was the better course of action.</blockquote>The better course of action was something in between, which was suggested before they did it. Unfortunately that is no longer really an option. Doing it all at once rather than in stages was the bad idea.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>While generally true(see SWG), it depends on their business goals. If a system is failing to do what they want it to and/or also failing monetarily to cover it's development/to convince them to stay the course, it's really hard to say it was a bad idea. Speaking as both a crafter and customer of sorts, you're going to have a hard time convincing people who see the lower prices, higher product volume(especially arrows and chain) and ease of commissioning a crafter for an order(again arrows and chain) that keeping the old status quo for the niche that liked it was the better course of action.</blockquote>The better course of action was something in between, which was suggested before they did it. Unfortunately that is no longer really an option. Doing it all at once rather than in stages was the bad idea. </blockquote>Well, you can't change the past. I hated the number of stages I had to go through to make anything, but I don't particularly care for having just one stage either. There are still people complaining that crafting takes too long, like one poster in a different thread who wanted the durability to be changed from 4 stages to just 2 stages.

[Samulbrar]

<p>I did some heavy pruning in this thread, per the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Forum Rules of Conduct</a></p><p>You may <b>NOT</b> post or place in a signature any material that: </p><ul><li>Attacks or insults others on the board. Feel free to debate the idea, but do not turn your disagreement into an attack upon the poster or any person or group. </li><li>Engages in name-calling, harassment, or threats. </li></ul><p>If I have to come back, it will be to lock.</p>

[Rast]

<p>I remember the good ole days of crafting, where the crafts meant a [Removed for Content] and it took time to do a job well.  Where there was a real threat from the forges...</p><p>A time when I found crafting fun, engaging and pleasurable activity, not some boring, fast and unacceptable sideline.</p>

[Cele]

<p>I have to say my provi liked crafting better with sub combines.  It seemed more like cooking to have to "make things that make a final thing"</p><p>Even though that zillion-step mental core breach drink took a ton of time and practice to get all 4 bars each time, it gave me a sense of pride to pop a few stacks into our guild bank a couple evenings a week.</p><p>I liked the variety of cooking harvestables we had, even though they were sometimes a pain to get.  I recall begging guildies waiting for groups in SS to harvest bushes and mail me the cloves and pears!!</p><p>I really would like to see lots more recipes for my provi, the way we used to have them.  I dont even mind if they are the little 40 minute items, like the new chocolate recipes we are getting.</p><p>I would like to see crafting have more of a challenge to it, but I have to admit I really dont have ideas on how to make that happen.  Although it was funny back at launch the first time time the forge killed me , and the first time the stove /keg knocked me on my butt!</p>

[Spangles]

Ahhh, the glorious days of 'Death by Crafting' - where not countering events could result in instant death.  I used to think it was hilarious that people died while crafting, until one day when I was teaching someone how to craft.  I was grouped with him (to make conversation easier) when he managed to get himself wiped on the forge while trying to make tin bars; I laughed at his 'OMG'; then came the stark realisation that I had picked up some group death debt!!!  Hehe.   I can laugh about it now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sapphirius]

Hehehe. I remember at one point reading the top 3 killers in the game. #1 was, <i>I think</i>, treasure chests. They had a death trap that would wipe out your group if it went off. #2 was the forge. I've since forgetten what #3 was, but it was something equally mundane and humorous.

[Terron]

Crafting was fun before. I am not fooling myself. I consider the statement that I am an insult, though mild.

[Cele]

<cite>Spangles wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ahhh, the glorious days of 'Death by Crafting' - where not countering events could result in instant death.  I used to think it was hilarious that people died while crafting, until one day when I was teaching someone how to craft.  I was grouped with him (to make conversation easier) when he managed to get himself wiped on the forge while trying to make tin bars; I laughed at his 'OMG'; then came the stark realisation that I had picked up some group death debt!!!  Hehe.   I can laugh about it now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> LOL, that had to be a real PITA at the time, but still hilarious!

[Deson]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>While generally true(see SWG), it depends on their business goals. If a system is failing to do what they want it to and/or also failing monetarily to cover it's development/to convince them to stay the course, it's really hard to say it was a bad idea. Speaking as both a crafter and customer of sorts, you're going to have a hard time convincing people who see the lower prices, higher product volume(especially arrows and chain) and ease of commissioning a crafter for an order(again arrows and chain) that keeping the old status quo for the niche that liked it was the better course of action.</blockquote>The better course of action was something in between, which was suggested before they did it. Unfortunately that is no longer really an option. Doing it all at once rather than in stages was the bad idea. </blockquote>Well, you can't change the past. I hated the number of stages I had to go through to make anything, but I don't particularly care for having just one stage either. There are still people complaining that crafting takes too long, like one poster in a different thread who wanted the durability to be changed from 4 stages to just 2 stages. </blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. SOE obviously made the decision they did for a reason given the range of options they were given. They are a business first and foremost and their decision was likely based on the practicality of the investment of resources vs what their goals were.The example given too also covers something else I've said repeatedly- not everyone will like every change and changes that would otherwise be loved can be despised with minor differences. The decision and even the goals however are not ours and just because we don't like a change doesn't make it a bad idea, just something we don't agree with. When change like that happens, the best course of action is oft times to advocate a return in a different fashion- something I've been doing since lu24 because while I found the execution flawed, the concepts were sound and even underutilized. I enjoyed the way this thread started and when it wasn't immediately derailed like I expected it to be,like every other thread that even hints at the good old days, I'd thought that maybe we could finally have one thread that just remembered how things were for people who liked the old system. I very much hope we can get back to what the op was about and avoid anymore derailing or rehashing of events now over a year old and discussed heatedly almost every month since. I'd like to see one thread last that doesn't devolve into misquotes,dev bashing and all the other ills that come with these threads.

[Terron]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. </blockquote>But may stop further changes in the same direction.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. </blockquote>But may stop further changes in the same direction. </blockquote> No, it'll just annoy people who've decided to adjust to the changes and the people who weren't here before LU24. The best way to prevent further changes in the same direction is to continue advocating that crafting remain a complex and time-consumive process and ask that some challenges be restored to it.

[Deson]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. </blockquote>But may stop further changes in the same direction. </blockquote> No, it'll just annoy people who've decided to adjust to the changes and the people who weren't here before LU24. The best way to prevent further changes in the same direction is to continue advocating that crafting remain a complex and time-consumive process and ask that some challenges be restored to it.</blockquote>What she said. There are different ways to advocate a position which is exactly what I decided to do post LU24. Can we get back to the happy, non-bitter memory sharing this post started as?

[Zard]

<cite>Spangles wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ahhh, the glorious days of 'Death by Crafting' - where not countering events could result in instant death.  I used to think it was hilarious that people died while crafting, until one day when I was teaching someone how to craft.  I was grouped with him (to make conversation easier) when he managed to get himself wiped on the forge while trying to make tin bars; I laughed at his 'OMG'; then came the stark realisation that I had picked up some group death debt!!!  Hehe.   I can laugh about it now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> That XP debt was for your artisan class only, fortunately, but you still had to pay for armor repairs!

[Domino]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. </blockquote>But may stop further changes in the same direction. </blockquote>I addressed this type of issue <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=60&topic_id=368182#4174284" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">in this post</a>.  Endlessly lamenting anything anywhere is just going to make me irritated and go looking for the rolling pin.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Raveller]

<p>The mods keep taking my posts out of these threads in the name of 'forum rules', yet never seem to remove the posts of the flaming whiners who use their inane pratter of 'they dumbed down crafting for adventurers' to insult intelligent players.</p><p>Regardless of the fact that a tiny number of people have incessantly whined about the removal of subcombines for more than a year and a half (without ever realizing that for a year and a half they've been paying a monthly subscription fee for a game which by their own admission they do not enjoy - yeah, that's real bright), the truth is:</p><ul><li>the original crafting system was not complex</li><li>the original crafting system was not challenging</li><li>the original crafting system did not have depth</li><li>the original crafting system did not require thinking</li><li>the original crafting system was a wasteful timesink</li><li>the original crafting system still produced Handcrafted crap</li><li>the original crafting system was boring</li><li>the original crafting system was not a valuable part of the game</li></ul><p>All of this is true of the current crafting system, except it doesn't suck up quite as much game time as the original system.</p><p>This thread really should be locked, since it is yet another flaming whine fest from those who simply fail to understand that EQ2 is an adventuring game, not a virtual PlayDoh factory!</p>

[Rast]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The mods keep taking my posts out of these threads in the name of 'forum rules', yet never seem to remove the posts of the flaming whiners who use their inane pratter of 'they dumbed down crafting for adventurers' to insult intelligent players.</p><p>Regardless of the fact that a tiny number of people have incessantly whined about the removal of subcombines for more than a year and a half (without ever realizing that for a year and a half they've been paying a monthly subscription fee for a game which by their own admission they do not enjoy - yeah, that's real bright), the truth is:</p><ul><li>the original crafting system was not complex</li><li>the original crafting system was not challenging</li><li>the original crafting system did not have depth</li><li>the original crafting system did not require thinking</li><li>the original crafting system was a wasteful timesink</li><li>the original crafting system still produced Handcrafted crap</li><li>the original crafting system was boring</li><li>the original crafting system was not a valuable part of the game</li></ul><p>All of this is true of the current crafting system, except it doesn't suck up quite as much game time as the original system.</p><p>This thread really should be locked, since it is yet another flaming whine fest from those who simply fail to understand that EQ2 is an adventuring game, not a virtual PlayDoh factory!</p></blockquote>and in all of those things, I disagree with you.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. </blockquote>But may stop further changes in the same direction. </blockquote> No, it'll just annoy people who've decided to adjust to the changes and the people who weren't here before LU24. The best way to prevent further changes in the same direction is to continue advocating that crafting remain a complex and time-consumive process and ask that some challenges be restored to it.</blockquote>What she said. There are different ways to advocate a position which is exactly what I decided to do post LU24. </blockquote>The best way, in my opinion, is to not advocate a regression but to advocate new ways to add in complexity and depth (which can use some of the -elements- of the past, just not a complete and utter regression).  Oh.. and don't insult the devs or give them ultimatums.

[LichKing06]

No, the good old days were back in EQ1... where you'd get your .01% drop in PoF, and fail a combine to make Nightmarewood Compound Bow XD.

[Sapphirius]

Ugh! PoF <shudders> All those fearlings... So many nightmares...

[Maroger]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The mods keep taking my posts out of these threads in the name of 'forum rules', yet never seem to remove the posts of the flaming whiners who use their inane pratter of 'they dumbed down crafting for adventurers' to insult intelligent players.</p><p>Regardless of the fact that a tiny number of people have incessantly whined about the removal of subcombines for more than a year and a half (without ever realizing that for a year and a half they've been paying a monthly subscription fee for a game which by their own admission they do not enjoy - yeah, that's real bright), the truth is:</p><ul><li>the original crafting system was not complex</li><li>the original crafting system was not challenging</li><li>the original crafting system did not have depth</li><li>the original crafting system did not require thinking</li><li>the original crafting system was a wasteful timesink</li><li>the original crafting system still produced Handcrafted crap</li><li>the original crafting system was boring</li><li>the original crafting system was not a valuable part of the game</li></ul><p>All of this is true of the current crafting system, except it doesn't suck up quite as much game time as the original system.</p><p>This thread really should be locked, since it is yet another flaming whine fest from those who simply fail to understand that EQ2 is an adventuring game, not a virtual PlayDoh factory!</p></blockquote>Actually that the statement about the current system not taking up game time is simply FALSE. Yes you can make a single item quicker but it now takes longer to level(for most classes) and so ends upbeing a HUGE TIMESINK with no rewards as the stuff you grind up with is still C**R**A*P only now we don't even get a tiny profit when we dump it on an NPC vendor. Big NERF to crafting.

[Maroger]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>The best way, in my opinion, is to not advocate a regression but to advocate new ways to add in complexity and depth (which can use some of the -elements- of the past, just not a complete and utter regression).  Oh.. and don't insult the devs or give them ultimatums. </blockquote><p>There is no reasonable way to add complexity and depth without fully redoing the system. The quickest way to fix what they broke is just to increase the XP for those classes with fewer recipes.</p><p>Adding group crafting or junk like the DFC crafting is a waste of time -- the armor that is produced is not worth the effort to get the recipe or the mats.</p><p>Unless they seriously raise the stats on crafted gear it will continue to be utter junk. </p>

[Calthine]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The mods keep taking my posts out of these threads in the name of 'forum rules', yet never seem to remove the posts of the flaming whiners who use their inane pratter of 'they dumbed down crafting for adventurers' to insult intelligent players.</p> </blockquote> Now there's a prefect example....

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. </blockquote>But may stop further changes in the same direction. </blockquote>I addressed this type of issue <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=60&topic_id=368182#4174284" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">in this post</a>.  Endlessly lamenting anything anywhere is just going to make me irritated and go looking for the rolling pin.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I find it interesting that you would discourage feedback from your customers. I realize there are different ways to do it, and maybe you're simply saying don't lament, hit me with constructive feedback, but you yourself have said stripping all subcombines probably wasn't the best choice. You clearly have some portion of your customer base that liked subs and would like to see subs reimplemented in some form. If taking subs out was primarily driven by player feedback (yet taken too far, cause I didn't see an overwhelming majority asking for *no* subs, just less subs) why would the decision to put subs back in in some form not also be driven by player feedback? I can tell you one thing that I think would really help to either squash this entire issue, or at least allow it to be put on a track that you may find more palatable: share some of the details about the design of this system, including where it used to be, what has been accomplished by certain changes, and what you're hoping to accomplish with the things you're trying to do. Too much detail would be counter-productive, but things like how much of the system is database-driven and how much is hard-coded. Did eliminating subs actually simplify the system? If so, how (in general terms)? I'm a software engineer by trade. I work on enterprise-class systems and have to work under the restrictions of Sarbanes-Oxley, which for those of you that don't know what that means, just simply means I have to fully document every change I make and make sure that my changes are made with an eye to the future, because it's a long slow process. If I screw something up the users are going to have to live with it for days to weeks while a fix is rolled through the SOX process. When I come here and make suggestions I try to do it with that in mind... with what I know of the system I think to myself, what would make things easier to maintain, easier to change and extend in the future? I pushed very hard for Beghn to eliminate non-pristine products from the system rather than taking out subs. He said eliminating subs would greatly simplify the database side of the system, make it easier to add new recipes, etc. But the fact that there was an order of magnitude more non-pristine products than sub-components for every pristine product made it *very* clear he wasn't telling us the whole truth. He had other motives for the changes and he was not forthcoming in sharing them with us. My sig makes it very clear how I feel about that. I want subs back. I think it was a bad decision. I think there are many ways that this system could be improved and simplified that don't (and didn't) involve eliminating subs. I think subs could be reimplemented in ways that wouldn't torque single-combine lovers in the same way eliminating subs torqued me. If there are clear cost/benefit concerns on your side that make this an impracticality then please share that. If there is some higher level directive from those above you restricting you from reimplementing subs then please share that. Otherwise I am a paying customer and I'm telling you this is something that I greatly desire from this product, it was something I used to have in this product, it was something I gained a lot of enjoyment from in this product, and I would like to be able to gain that enjoyment again from this product.

[Deson]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>What she said echoes what I've been saying since the change; it's done and lamenting endlessly in public won't change it. </blockquote>But may stop further changes in the same direction. </blockquote>I addressed this type of issue <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=60&topic_id=368182#4174284" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">in this post</a>.  Endlessly lamenting anything anywhere is just going to make me irritated and go looking for the rolling pin.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I find it interesting that you would discourage feedback from your customers. I realize there are different ways to do it, and <b>maybe you're simply saying don't lament, hit me with constructive feedback,</b> but you yourself have said stripping all subcombines probably wasn't the best choice. You clearly have some portion of your customer base that liked subs and would like to see subs reimplemented in some form. If taking subs out was primarily driven by player feedback (yet taken too far, cause I didn't see an overwhelming majority asking for *no* subs, just less subs) why would the decision to put subs back in in some form not also be driven by player feedback? I can tell you one thing that I think would really help to either squash this entire issue, or at least allow it to be put on a track that you may find more palatable: share some of the details about the design of this system, including where it used to be, what has been accomplished by certain changes, and what you're hoping to accomplish with the things you're trying to do. Too much detail would be counter-productive, but things like how much of the system is database-driven and how much is hard-coded. Did eliminating subs actually simplify the system? If so, how (in general terms)? I'm a software engineer by trade. I work on enterprise-class systems and have to work under the restrictions of Sarbanes-Oxley, which for those of you that don't know what that means, just simply means I have to fully document every change I make and make sure that my changes are made with an eye to the future, because it's a long slow process. If I screw something up the users are going to have to live with it for days to weeks while a fix is rolled through the SOX process. When I come here and make suggestions I try to do it with that in mind... with what I know of the system I think to myself, what would make things easier to maintain, easier to change and extend in the future? I pushed very hard for Beghn to eliminate non-pristine products from the system rather than taking out subs. He said eliminating subs would greatly simplify the database side of the system, make it easier to add new recipes, etc. But the fact that there was an order of magnitude more non-pristine products than sub-components for every pristine product made it *very* clear he wasn't telling us the whole truth. He had other motives for the changes and he was not forthcoming in sharing them with us. My sig makes it very clear how I feel about that. I want subs back. I think it was a bad decision. I think there are many ways that this system could be improved and simplified that don't (and didn't) involve eliminating subs. I think subs could be reimplemented in ways that wouldn't torque single-combine lovers in the same way eliminating subs torqued me. If there are clear cost/benefit concerns on your side that make this an impracticality then please share that. If there is some higher level directive from those above you restricting you from reimplementing subs then please share that. Otherwise I am a paying customer and I'm telling you this is something that I greatly desire from this product, it was something I used to have in this product, it was something I gained a lot of enjoyment from in this product, and I would like to be able to gain that enjoyment again from this product. </blockquote>That's exactly what she said. Lamenting endlessly is not feedback, it's...well, lamenting endlessly. You can't accuse Beghn of dishonesty without either knowing him or the system. Considering subs touched every crafted product and had to be accounted for in so many ways, I don't see how what he said was so unbelievable.

[Calthine]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did eliminating subs actually simplify the system? If so, how (in general terms)? </blockquote>I can tell you that a couple of coders I talked to at February's Summit said before no-subs the whole TS system was pretty messy, to the point that just getting writs in for us (remember?) and the missing T6 stuff was going to take over 6 months. (Remember, Dymas heard our pleas and jumped in and got us writs.) I can't tell you exactly what was said, 'cause I didn't write it down, and that'd be miss-quoting, but from their descriptions the phrase "Charley Fox" comes to mind...

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's exactly what she said. Lamenting endlessly is not feedback, it's...well, lamenting endlessly. You can't accuse Beghn of dishonesty without either knowing him or the system. Considering subs touched every crafted product and had to be accounted for in so many ways, I don't see how what he said was so unbelievable. </blockquote>I didn't say he was dishonest, I said he didn't give us the whole story. Giving us the whole story would allow us to offer more applicable feedback IMO. That's my whole point. And I guess we (or maybe just I do) need a clarification on what constitutes the undesirable lament. Because I'm going to keep singing the subs song until I have a clear reason not to.

[Aker]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The mods keep taking my posts out of these threads in the name of 'forum rules', yet never seem to remove the posts of the flaming whiners who use their inane pratter of 'they dumbed down crafting for adventurers' to insult intelligent players.</p><p>Regardless of the fact that a tiny number of people have incessantly whined about the removal of subcombines for more than a year and a half (without ever realizing that for a year and a half they've been paying a monthly subscription fee for a game which by their own admission they do not enjoy - yeah, that's real bright), the truth is:</p><ul><li>the original crafting system was not complex</li><li>the original crafting system was not challenging</li><li>the original crafting system did not have depth</li><li>the original crafting system did not require thinking</li><li>the original crafting system was a wasteful timesink</li><li>the original crafting system still produced Handcrafted crap</li><li>the original crafting system was boring</li><li>the original crafting system was not a valuable part of the game</li></ul><p>All of this is true of the current crafting system, except it doesn't suck up quite as much game time as the original system.</p><p>This thread really should be locked, since it is yet another flaming whine fest from those who simply fail to understand that EQ2 is an adventuring game, not a virtual PlayDoh factory!</p></blockquote>and in all of those things, I disagree with you. </blockquote>If that is your opinion don't need to be mine or anyones else. Another thing if you don't like crafting stay a way from crafting forums and don't bother people who like it please. Sorry I think I pressed wrong quote button becouse my coment was intended to Raveller

[Sapphirius]

Oh no, I think you're right in that. It's been a long time since I was actually excited about crafting. Under Beghn, I had all but given up on it. Domino, however, gives me hope. Whether or not something is complex, challenging, a timesink, boring, etc. is all a matter of opinion. Therefore, it's all relative to whoever is looking at it.

[Rijacki]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's exactly what she said. Lamenting endlessly is not feedback, it's...well, lamenting endlessly. You can't accuse Beghn of dishonesty without either knowing him or the system. Considering subs touched every crafted product and had to be accounted for in so many ways, I don't see how what he said was so unbelievable. </blockquote>I didn't say he was dishonest, I said he didn't give us the whole story. Giving us the whole story would allow us to offer more applicable feedback IMO. That's my whole point. And I guess we (or maybe just I do) need a clarification on what constitutes the undesirable lament. Because I'm going to keep singing the subs song until I have a clear reason not to. </blockquote>Subs are not coming back wholesale.  Period.  End of story.  To constantly say that subs need to be brought back to the whole crafting system or it is completely wrong is endlessly lamenting.  Constantly saying that the system -needs- to return to the pre-LU24 crafting or that only with the pre-LU24 (or even pre-cross-crafting) was the system decent is endlessly lamenting.  Constantly haranguing on about how -you- (or even you and others) liked the old system and therefore it needs to come back now now now and anything else is not acceptable is endlessly lamenting. Constantly bemoaning the idea that crafters weren't listened to in the revamp of the tradeskill system with LU24 and if they had listened to them, your idea of the right kind of crafting would have remained or been implemented is also constantly lamenting. SUBS ARE GONE FROM CORE CRAFTING!  Done, over with.  That's the past.  We can like it, hate it, hate it at first but now like it, whatever.  SUBS IN THE CORE CRAFTING IS NOT COMING BACK. BUT, giving NEW ways that can incorporate crafting from multiple players to make a total product that is NOT part of the core crafting (essentials or the current advanced books) would be valuable -constructive- feedback.  For example some sort of special crafting that involved multiple crafters (but is not a direct take-off on the subs of old).

[Nuhus]

<p>Rollback pre NGE! </p><p>Whoops, wrong forum.</p>

[Rast]

<p>There are a number of ways we could 'add' to the system.</p><p>Unfortunately, most of them would require such extensive reworking of the system that they are not really practical.</p><p>Right now (for the most part) there is no real point in crafting.  Rares are gouged in pricing (which I know isn't SoEs fault, but it is still part of the problem), common harvest go to the extremes in pricing (t6 soft metals to t6 roots/pelts anyone?).  The gear, while decent, doesn't justify the current pricing structure in the game.  Handcrafted is a complete waste.</p><p>I do miss the old way of things for multiple reasons and not just subs either.</p><p>First off, there was a better utilization of materials in the old system.  Trees and soft metals weren't a waste to an armorer, they could be used to make WORTs, leaving the ore to the armor pieces.</p><p>Secondly, the gear was better quality and with good reason, it took longer to get and to make.  There was an effort involved in both sides of the equation (harvesting and crafting)</p><p>Thirdly, the market wasn't as flooding with products.  Yes, I know this will make me seem elitist, but it was nice to not have so many products on the market.  Yes, finals give you more xp, but they also create more finals that have to be distributed in some manner (be it to a vendor or on a broker).  At least prior to the changes, you could make enough money selling back to the vendor that you could at least afford your books...</p><p>Lastly, I felt more like a crafter...  You spent more time on the details (IMO) of the craft.  You worked up your raws into refines, your refines into pieces and your pieces into finals.  Under the current system, I don't feel like a crafter...  I feel like a convience, a sideline, but certainly not a crafter. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>so, imnsho, those are the issues that need to be addressed to make crafting more...  fun</p>

[Deson]

Manufacture time was not and is not a factor in gear quality.Ease of acquisition and availability are the primary determinants in what quality an item will be. Were manufacture time an actual component in item quality, Chain would have been the greatest equipment in game and arrows would have been the equivalent of bazooka blasts.

[Rast]

<p>Ok, my lamenting aside.</p><p>How do we address the issues?  What are the real issues?  Is there a way to address them?</p><p>Fun factor.  Crafting is a rather boring grind fest right now to me.  I know some enjoy it, so, how do we improve the fun factor for others while NOT decreasing the fun factor it has for some?</p><p>Product quality.  Let's face it, the products aren't great (they aren't bad at the MC level, but they certainly aren't earth shattering quality by any stretch of the imagination)</p><p>Feeling more like crafting and less like an assembly line.  Subs aren't coming back, but does that really mean there aren't other ways to get this feeling?  I think there are, but how?</p><p>Ok, here is an insane idea...  and I do mean insane.</p><p>How about we remove 'rare' crafting as it exists now and replace it with the ability to apply rare items handcrafted armor.  Do it sorta like the adornment system, but with more options that are all crafter made.</p><p>Basically, the crafter would make a normal run of the mill handcrafted item and then apply these 'extras' to the item during an imbuing process.  These extras would then augment the item in some fashion beyond the basic function (ie, a way to customize the armor for purpose).  Depending upon the rare applied, would determine the effect it would have.</p><p>The imbuements would become a version of a moving foward sub, could be done in such fashions to provide additional recipes for people that would be desired by other crafters, but not required to function (only to build an improved product)</p>

[Rast]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Manufacture time was not and is not a factor in gear quality.Ease of acquisition and availability are the primary determinants in what quality an item will be. Were manufacture time an actual component in item quality, Chain would have been the greatest equipment in game and arrows would have been the equivalent of bazooka blasts. </blockquote> I disagree with you Deson, but then, you already knew that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  There were aberations in the system for sure, but time WAS a factor IMO.

[Terron]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it'll just annoy people who've decided to adjust to the changes and the people who weren't here before LU24. The best way to prevent further changes in the same direction is to continue advocating that crafting remain a complex and time-consumive process and ask that some challenges be restored to it.</blockquote>It is impossible for me to advocate that "crafting remain a complex and time-consumive process" since a) IMO it has been too simple for over a year and b) time-comsumptive sounds bad. The process of crafting was fun for me prior to LU24. There have been several comments in this thread saying that I must be misrembering if I think that. They are wrong, and I tend to get annoyed by the denial that my opinion could be valid. I kept on playing EQ2 because there are other aspects of the game I like (mainly questing), but I gave up on crafting for several months, after I found that most of the fun had been removed. I levelled my main from 49 to 50 for the FD quest. I tried the new writs - much better than the old but not enough. It took the plan to remove imbued items with the release of EoF to make me do some grinding to try to get to where I could make the next tier of imbued items with my main and first alt. That decision was quickly reversed, but since I had put the effort in I did finish taking them to the next useful level. The introduction of cloaks in EoF gave my tailor something to make and eventually got me to level him from 37 to 45 over 2 months. The frostfell crafting event helped. The improvements to arrows persuaded me to get my woodworker up from 41 to 43 (and since they sold very rapidly to begin with she went past that). Since I was feeling better about crafting at that time I took my jeweler to 58 and then my alchemist to 48, and then since she was so close to 50 for the FD quest. I found that I was selling more than before, mainly backpack, totems and arrows, but also some jewelry and though I do not constantly maintain a stock, I do stock up sometimes and they are drifitng up slowly, Selling or using items I made is a source of fun. I am not really into being a merchant though. I no longer enjoy the process of crafting. It has been turned from a pleasure into a pain. For that reason I do not think that the current system is "a pretty good middle ground". The source of that pleasure was what Calthine called the immersion factor. Using a quill, ink and paper to make a scroll felt right. Making your own magical ink from special ingredients also felt right. Those two steps helped me imagine I was doing the crafting, and I would have been very happy if scroll making had been reduced to a 2 step process. But one step where you throw a bunch of seemingly random ingredients together does not grab my imagination. One step is OK for some things, especially consumable items, but even for those the ingredients are often off-putting. As I wrote I think it is too late to go back to multiple step recipes for current products. They will have to remain unfun. But saying what was good about the old days seems on-topic for this thread. And perhaps it could be done for some new recipes, particularly ones producing special products. It sounds like the ingredients problem is being addressed in the new provisioning recipes. So do I have hope that crafting will get better. I am happy for it to be done gradually.

[Sapphirius]

It's an intriguing idea, but in order for it to "sell" to the community, the quality of handcrafted items would have to be vastly improved.

[Terron]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>SUBS ARE GONE FROM CORE CRAFTING!  Done, over with.  That's the past.  We can like it, hate it, hate it at first but now like it, whatever.  SUBS IN THE CORE CRAFTING IS NOT COMING BACK. </blockquote>They haven't gone completely. Making an imbued ring uses a subcomponent - a pristine ordinary ring. I know it is technically also a final, but it would never be used as such.

[Rast]

<p>No, actually they wouldn't need to be.  Though it would be nice if they were slightly improved, the intent is for them to be a base to build from.</p><p>For example, the restriction could be that only three imbues could be used, so a tank might want to take a mitigation, strength and stamina imbue for his armor that would impove it's quality.  Or he could take two mitigations and a stamina, or 3 mitigations and get his stats from somewhere else and build a very good mit piece that is weak in other areas.  Make it a tradeoff.</p>

[Deson]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Manufacture time was not and is not a factor in gear quality.Ease of acquisition and availability are the primary determinants in what quality an item will be. Were manufacture time an actual component in item quality, Chain would have been the greatest equipment in game and arrows would have been the equivalent of bazooka blasts. </blockquote> I disagree with you Deson, but then, you already knew that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  There were aberations in the system for sure, but time WAS a factor IMO.</blockquote>It's not an opinion matter but, with so much dev commentary wiped with the forum move, nothing short of a new dev post would prove anything. The old pre-KoS itemization was based on item "tier" where items had a loose set of boundaries they were allowed and then the respective devs went off and made items with not enough QC afterward. Bluntly our items were great because it seems TS item devs were simply better at allocating what they had if we are to believe what Dymus said in the "digging in the ground" post. The bulk of all itemization is determined by philosophy(which changed massively with KoS), availability, and the supposed risk involved in gaining the item. Time, even if it was a factor, is so massively outweighed by the other considerations as to not make a major impact into item quality. We also had numerous examples before that indirectly but clearly showed they really didn't factor time heavily if at all in the old process- writ timers looming large among them. Again though, lacking the evidence lost in the forum move across multiple dev posts, it's not provable so I'm probably going to drop this one as well.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it'll just annoy people who've decided to adjust to the changes and the people who weren't here before LU24. The best way to prevent further changes in the same direction is to continue advocating that crafting remain a complex and time-consumive process and ask that some challenges be restored to it.</blockquote>It is impossible for me to advocate that "crafting remain a complex and time-consumive process" since a) IMO it has been too simple for over a year and b) time-comsumptive sounds bad. The process of crafting was fun for me prior to LU24. There have been several comments in this thread saying that I must be misrembering if I think that. They are wrong, and I tend to get annoyed by the denial that my opinion could be valid. </blockquote><p>I liked elements of the old system. I like elements of the new system as well. Where does that put me? I'm not really sure, but in my memories of the old days, I have learned to take the good <i>with the bad</i>. When you start remembering how things were, you're going to have people who bring up all the good stuff and people who bring up all the bad stuff. No one's point of view is any more correct or incorrect than anyone else's. You enjoyed crafting before LU24. That doesn't make someone who didn't enjoy it wrong in their opinions. It's wrong of them to try to force that opinion on someone else by generalizing it, but their opinion in and of itself is not wrong. </p><p>Unfortunately, <i>that system is gone now, and it is <b>never</b> coming back</i>.</p><p>Constantly bringing it up over and over again isn't going to help matters in the slightest. It's beating a dead horse. You can beat it all day, and it still isn't going to move. You need to move forward and offer suggestions for improvements that don't involved backpedaling.</p>

[Calthine]

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>SUBS ARE GONE FROM CORE CRAFTING!  Done, over with.  That's the past.  We can like it, hate it, hate it at first but now like it, whatever.  SUBS IN THE CORE CRAFTING IS NOT COMING BACK. </blockquote>They haven't gone completely. Making an imbued ring uses a subcomponent - a pristine ordinary ring. I know it is technically also a final, but it would never be used as such. </blockquote> I'd disagree with you Terron, because subs, by nature, weren't usable as finals.

[Terron]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Terron wrote: <p>I liked elements of the old system. I like elements of the new system as well. Where does that put me? </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">In the same position as me.</span></p> <p> I'm not really sure, but in my memories of the old days, I have learned to take the good <i>with the bad</i>. When you start remembering how things were, you're going to have people who bring up all the good stuff and people who bring up all the bad stuff. No one's point of view is any more correct or incorrect than anyone else's. </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">Not true in general, but true in this case.</span></p> <p> You enjoyed crafting before LU24. That doesn't make someone who didn't enjoy it wrong in their opinions. </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">I think you misunderstood me. </span><span style="color: #ff9900">I agree with that. I have never said they were wrong to not enjoy it. </span></p> <p> It's wrong of them to try to force that opinion on someone else by generalizing it, but their opinion in and of itself is not wrong. </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">That is not what I was saying was wrong. As an example you wrote that those those thought they were having fun must be misremembering. That statement is wrong in my case. </span> </p> <p>What I said was wrong was their (and your's) statements that I did not have fun. </p> <p>Unfortunately, <i>that system is gone now, and it is <b>never</b> coming back</i>. </p> <p><span style="color: #ff9900">Why the emphasis? I have said so twice in this thread, including in the post you quoted. We seem to be in violent agreement.</span> </p> <p>Constantly bringing it up over and over again isn't going to help matters in the slightest. It's beating a dead horse. You can beat it all day, and it still isn't going to move. You need to move forward and offer suggestions for improvements that don't involved backpedaling. </p><><span style="color: #ff9900">Why do you want to disallow improvements that involve a little bit of backpedaling? Do you dislike the backpedalling involved in the return of chocolate? There is movement. The horse isn't quite dead. Note the reason I described the problems with LU24, is because only by identifying the problem can solutions be found. It may not be a problem to you, but I am not the only one who has described such a loss of fun.</span> </blockquote>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>selch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Crafting was not fun back then, not fun now... Now you waste less time for same dumb stuff... Why I became crafter? To craft my own goods, to craft to have some sales. Yet, grinding part was most boring part. Stick to different types of machines, calculate 2 numbers overhead etc. etc. Some actually saying this "talent", "fun".</p><p>People are just fooling themselves about crafting being fun. It is just taking items were fun because you could decorate house, or kill something better than your lame quest rewards. Giving x20 prices to items you create was evil fun (because you changed 5 machines to do that, what a lame excuse)  </p></blockquote> <points to the above post> I think you have me msitaken for someone else.

[ChopperDawg]

What I miss about the old days is that it took time, patience and some dedication to do what it was you did.  That is the nature of a craftsman.  I guess the idea behind the change was so that everyone would do it, well that didn't work.  I don't see droves of toons in there crafting so what now SOE?  Now its just a grind with no skill involved and the market (at least on my server) is anything but stable.  I can remember making jewelery (spellng?) and never second guessing my prices at each tier because I knew I would usually get my asking price, maybe a small adjustment here and there.  Not so volatile as it seems now.  It was a much better time for me then as a crafter.....*SIGH* Oh well, thats my take on it....have a good one everybody <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Echgar]

Let's stay on-topic please.  I have removed a few posts that were getting a bit off track. I would also like to remind some of you that when it comes to issues in-game, there are bound to be a variety of opinions.  You are welcome to disagree with each other, but let's keep the venom out of it please.  At some point, it is good to recognize when you just need to agree to disagree and move on instead of continuing to battle it out and get to where you are launching personal attacks at each other.  Let's be constructive and respectful of others here please. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sapphirius]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>No, actually they wouldn't need to be.  Though it would be nice if they were slightly improved, the intent is for them to be a base to build from.</p><p>For example, the restriction could be that only three imbues could be used, so a tank might want to take a mitigation, strength and stamina imbue for his armor that would impove it's quality.  Or he could take two mitigations and a stamina, or 3 mitigations and get his stats from somewhere else and build a very good mit piece that is weak in other areas.  Make it a tradeoff.</p></blockquote><p> But what's to stop these augmentations (or imbues as you call them) from suffering the same over-priced fate as mastercrafted suffers? Also, why can't we keep mastercrafted in the game and have these imbues still available? It would make handcrafted viable compared to treasured and mastercrafted viable compared to legendary.</p><p>I really like the idea of augmenting your armor with your own chosen stats. Heck, if I could have done this already, every piece of woven leather (sta & wis) I got would also be augmented with intelligence. (Why don't we have handcrafted leather with int?)</p>

[Rast]

<p>Actually Sapphy, you might be on to something there.</p><p>Take the idea above, leave in rare crafted and make all the 'imbuement' raws as mob drops.  You give a nice healthy interdependence between crafters and adventurers, the crafter can still level without adventurers, adventurers can level without crafters, but to be able to do their (relative) best, they would need each other.</p><p>Granted, it shouldn't touch fabled quality (unless they allow fabled imbues), but it could easily be used to increase MC gear upto and above legendary.</p>

[Sapphirius]

<p><points Jal to the "Wish List" thread></p><p>Perhaps tie these augmentations in with a specialization that outfitters would have to quest in order to make. To keep it from being a blase worthless addition that any outfitter could do, have it so that you can only choose <i>one</i> specialization to focus on starting at level 60? Like an armorer could choose to become a Melee-specced Armorer that could add melee/trauma damage to gear but not add plus healing because that would require a Healing-specced Armorer? And a Magic-specced Armorer that could add spell damage to plate and chain, which would appeal to crusaders and shamans who solo and want a boost to their DPS?</p><p>This is jsut another thought that occured to me while I was reading the wish list.</p>

[Domino]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's exactly what she said. Lamenting endlessly is not feedback, it's...well, lamenting endlessly. You can't accuse Beghn of dishonesty without either knowing him or the system. Considering subs touched every crafted product and had to be accounted for in so many ways, I don't see how what he said was so unbelievable. </blockquote>I didn't say he was dishonest, I said he didn't give us the whole story. Giving us the whole story would allow us to offer more applicable feedback IMO. That's my whole point. And I guess we (or maybe just I do) need a clarification on what constitutes the undesirable lament. Because I'm going to keep singing the subs song until I have a clear reason not to. </blockquote>From <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=45&topic_id=359458�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">a post I made</a> in my very first week here: <span style="font-size: small; font-family: times new roman,times"><i><span style="font-size: medium">Interims and interdependencies ... while I agree that there were other less drastic solutions than the complete removal of everything, it's done now.  It was a massive effort for Beghn to redo it and took weeks if not months of work to rewrite every recipe.  I feel that redoing all that work again (and meanwhile shelving all sorts of other things I could have been doing instead) is not the most valuable way I can spend my time improving tradeskills.  I'd rather look at other ways to make crafting more interesting and to even up the gap between the speed of levelling of different classes.  More recipes, for example! </span> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></i></span> As for what constitutes an endless lament ... As I've said elsewhere, I value feedback and opinions in this forum and in game too (yes, I get /feedback reports daily and read them).  But whether we decide to make any changes is based on a large number of factors, and is not influenced by how frequently or loudly those same opinions are repeated in here.  If I'm aware of the issue/opinion, and you know I'm aware of the issue/opinion, then continuing to repeat the same opinion over and over is not going to do anything whatsoever further towards getting the issue/opinion escalated on my to-do list.  After a while, I'll probably just get annoyed and stop reading, since there's nothing new being said.  Every post I read is time I'm not spending making actual changes in game, and if you're just repeating the same things over and over, well, personally I'd rather spend that time doing something proactive design-wise.  Right now for example if I wasn't writing this, I'd be itemizing the new tradeskilled jewelery for the Ruins of Kunark expansion.  And now I will go back to doing that, before the jewelers notice!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But please, feel free to add new and constructive feedback, keep adding suggestions to the wish list thread at the top of this forum, where it won't get lost.  Fresh suggestions and opinions are certainly welcome.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>From <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=45&topic_id=359458�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">a post I made</a> in my very first week here: <span style="font-size: small; font-family: times new roman,times"><i><span style="font-size: medium">Interims and interdependencies ... while I agree that there were other less drastic solutions than the complete removal of everything, it's done now.  It was a massive effort for Beghn to redo it and took weeks if not months of work to rewrite every recipe.  I feel that redoing all that work again (and meanwhile shelving all sorts of other things I could have been doing instead) is not the most valuable way I can spend my time improving tradeskills.  I'd rather look at other ways to make crafting more interesting and to even up the gap between the speed of levelling of different classes.  More recipes, for example! </span> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></i></span> As for what constitutes an endless lament ... As I've said elsewhere, I value feedback and opinions in this forum and in game too (yes, I get /feedback reports daily and read them).  But whether we decide to make any changes is based on a large number of factors, and is not influenced by how frequently or loudly those same opinions are repeated in here.  If I'm aware of the issue/opinion, and you know I'm aware of the issue/opinion, then continuing to repeat the same opinion over and over is not going to do anything whatsoever further towards getting the issue/opinion escalated on my to-do list.  After a while, I'll probably just get annoyed and stop reading, since there's nothing new being said.  Every post I read is time I'm not spending making actual changes in game, and if you're just repeating the same things over and over, well, personally I'd rather spend that time doing something proactive design-wise.  Right now for example if I wasn't writing this, I'd be itemizing the new tradeskilled jewelery for the Ruins of Kunark expansion.  And now I will go back to doing that, before the jewelers notice!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But please, feel free to add new and constructive feedback, keep adding suggestions to the wish list thread at the top of this forum, where it won't get lost.  Fresh suggestions and opinions are certainly welcome.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Thank you for the clarification. There are a few points you're overlooking, however. Not every thread/post in this forum is an attempt to get your attention or get you to bump something up on your priority list. This is a community forum and as such should be allowed to have community discussions. I didn't even post on this thread until you replied and told everyone that this kind of feedback isn't welcome. I'm not (or this thread starter is not, for instance) allowed to express to the *community* that I support an issue, or that this-or-that is what I'd like to see in the future? Why? You don't have to stop and reply. You don't even have to read it. This is the same point I made to the little cadre of rose-colored-glasses-wearers that jumped all over me in this thread and got all kinds of posts deleted. My posts can't just be easily skipped over? I'm only one of many saying something along the same lines. Yet I need to be singled out and told to stop saying certain things? My feedback isn't welcome? I've given lots of feedback in the threads asking for directed feedback. You don't give me responses there, yet you'll reply to off-topic fluff posts in those threads even after you asked people not to post off-topic fluff posts in those threads. Forgive me if I'm a little bitter when you're in the middle of implementing the exact thing I suggested as an alternative to the "drastic removal of everything" that I liked about the system a year ago when Beghn spent "weeks or months" removing interims.

[Domino]

<cite>sliderhouserules wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didn't even post on this thread until you replied and told everyone that this kind of feedback isn't welcome. I'm not (or this thread starter is not, for instance) allowed to express to the *community* that I support an issue, or that this-or-that is what I'd like to see in the future? Why? </blockquote>As Sapphirius says, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=45&topic_id=367932#4174287" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">my first post on this thread</a> was addressed to, and specifically quoting, Terron.  Since he appeared to be specifically advocating "lamenting endlessly" under the impression it would have some effect on the changes we make, I was merely attempting to correct that impression.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Apparently I missed some posts being removed (we were moving offices this morning so I didn't check the forums till lunch time) so I can't answer anything to do with them or why they are removed.  I'm sure the moderators be happy to will enlighten anyone concerned who didn't already receive an explanation in their PM's.  Let me reiterate for yet another time however that fresh suggestions and opinions are always welcome.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And now back to that jewelry!

[Samulbrar]

<p>This is the end of the thread. As I said, if I had to visit this thread again, it would be with a lock.</p><p>It is ok to express your opinion on any topic, however, allow me to refresh everyone with the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Forum Rules of Conduct</a>, which several posts from this thread got removed for violating, specifically:</p><p>In general, you may post any material written in a <span style="color: #cc0000">courteous and mature manner</span>, providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting. This includes material that disagrees with the way that we, the developers, operate the game. We will not interfere with the communication of thoughts and ideas as long as the presentation is <span style="color: #cc0000">constructive and appropriate for all those capable of reading the forum.</span> </p><p>You may <b>NOT</b> post or place in a signature any material that: </p><ul><li>Attacks or insults others on the board. Feel free to debate the idea, <span style="color: #cc0000">but do not turn your disagreement into an attack upon the poster or any person or group. </span></li><li>Engages in name-calling, harassment, or threats. </li></ul><p>Pay attention to the highlighted parts. Those are the main reasons posts disappear.</p><p>If you have any questions on how a thread or post is moderated, you can PM Echgar or Grimwell.</p>