Where is EQ2 going with the Sorcerer?

[Windowlicker]

<p>In light of the recent changes, I have to ask .. where is EQ2 going with the Sorcerer?</p><p>Months/Years ago there was a mistakenly posted list of where each class would fit into the grander scheme of things DPS wise.  I have to be honest, I started playing my Warlock as I wanted a true T1 DPS class.</p><p>Currently, it's extremely difficult for a Warlock or Wizard to remain in a top position on the parse.  To compete with a "Noob" scout, we require absolutely top of the line gear and spells.  Saying this, please understand that I'm quite accustomed at this point to see a scout with A3 to A1 spells .. using almost no raid gear surpass my Warlocks DPS on quite a few raid pulls.</p><p>There was a little hope when there was an impending hate nerf.  I figured "Hey, maybe these guys will need to throttle the DPS a little .. and we might be able to catch up a bit".</p><p>Now I see that *those* changes have been reversed, however the nerf to our DPS has remained?  So now we'll have to deal with over a 4% hit to zonewide DPS on top of our hate problems?</p><p>There have been some nice changes to the Warlock over the past year.  It's pushed us into a more defined role, however as far as I'm concerned we're far from "fixed" or fully functional.</p><p>So if anything, I'm curious.  Where do we fit in?  Where do they see us going?  We're really only good for one thing, and that's DPS.  Currently, we're becoming less and less desirable because of the need to "baby" us in raids with specific setups.  To boot, we're not kicking out enough DPS to really make it worthwile having us there.</p><p>I know it's not likely we'll receive *any* form of official answer on this, but to be honest the bigger picture is kinda bothering me.  </p>

[Groma]

There is a swashy in my guild who has been dubbed the Xegonite warrior.  It was an alt of one of our bruisers, he powerleveled him to 70 in a week and got him all adept 3's.  So far, he has been able to consistently outparse me on any single target fight, and come very close or even pass me on 3+ mob encounters.  Now, i'm not the best geared warlock by any stretch of the imagination, but i think i have a pretty [Removed for Content] good setup and every single one of my raid use spells is M1.  Why on earth am i being out DPSed in almost every situation by a guy that was using velium weapons and wearing xegonite armor with only Ad3 CAs? I agree Zhane, it doesn't make sense.  Really makes me with EQ2 had a Team Lead program where an active player from each class worked directly with the developers to address concerns with the class and ultimately find the perfect balance.  Worse yet, i play pvp, and currently i don't think a single Dev has a level 70 toon on a pvp server, yet they are constantly trying to balance out T7 pvp not having the slightest clue what it is like.

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a swashy in my guild who has been dubbed the Xegonite warrior.  It was an alt of one of our bruisers, he powerleveled him to 70 in a week and got him all adept 3's.  So far, he has been able to consistently outparse me on any single target fight, and come very close or even pass me on 3+ mob encounters.  Now, i'm not the best geared warlock by any stretch of the imagination, but i think i have a pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] good setup and every single one of my raid use spells is M1.  Why on earth am i being out DPSed in almost every situation by a guy that was using velium weapons and wearing xegonite armor with only Ad3 CAs? I agree Zhane, it doesn't make sense.  Really makes me with EQ2 had a Team Lead program where an active player from each class worked directly with the developers to address concerns with the class and ultimately find the perfect balance.  Worse yet, i play pvp, and currently i don't think a single Dev has a level 70 toon on a pvp server, yet they are constantly trying to balance out T7 pvp not having the slightest clue what it is like. </blockquote><p> That's the sort of thing I'm seeing as well.  My character is not wearing full end-game gear either, but I assure you my gear is better then the average Warlock running around in Mistmoore.</p><p>If you put me toe to toe with the other Warlocks/Wizards on the server, there aren't too many that will give me a run for my money.</p><p>That being said, it's pretty frustrating when a class that actually *needs* to run over and position itself to attack a mob .. is smoking my numbers on the parse  .. especially when they aren't wearing anything special as far as gear is concerned.</p><p>I guess if anything, it sucks throwing over a year's work into a character only to see a character with a shelf life of 20 days /played fly past you with mastercrafted junk and barely upgraded spells/combat abilities.</p><p>What is a Fantasy game without a Mage?  Here's a better question, what is a Fantasy game with *crappy* Mage classes?</p>

[miliskel]

they dont like mages, the only reason to play a mage is because u like magic , we are totally unbalanced and the dps nerf is reducing scouts dps by a whopping 10 % roughly and the tanks hate by 10 % meaning us warlocks will do 18 % less damage added with our damge nerfs. its simply making us become worse dps.

[Ruut Li]

I think they see us going to PoF, asking for a spot in one of them bot-farming patrols.

[Deathspell]

On my guildraids, top 2 is always Wizards. Next are the ever-changing dps-positions, a Necro, Warlock, (we have no Conj) but very closely followed and regularly outparsed by an Assassin, Swashbuckler and even a (fabled/mastered) Bruiser. Hell, I've seen fabled raid guardians dish out insane dps while not tanking. It's always the same players/classes I play with, but that's really how my ideas and thoughts about those classes is built.

[Windowlicker]

<p>On our raids over the past year, the Warlock has always been on top of all the cloth DPS.  It's no easy feat to do this either I assure you.</p><p>Partially due to the fact we don't have any solid Necro's built for DPS.  And we only have one really decent Wizard that know's what he's doing.</p><p>People just aren't playing the Sorcerer as much as they did imho. </p><p>This being said, as stated above  .. a relatively new Swashbuckler/Assassin or Brigand seems to have absolutely no problems keeping up DPS wise.  I'm talking someone wearing mastercrafted with A1 to A3 spells.</p><p>Personally I don't think it's right for a character that isn't totally geared up to be able to compete with another apparent DPS class that *is* already geared.</p><p>I don't want to raise the "Nerf scouts" flag, but the only other option is to give the Sorcerers a bit of a boost to offset the difference.</p>

[miliskel]

best solution would be to decrease sorceror hate gain etc.

[Aranieq]

I haven't been playing a warlock as many.. if not most in this thread but since I spawned my first Broodling I've been hardcore to the class.  I'm fully masterd, and almost fully fabled in EoF, high KoS gear.  I cannot beat our assassin (similar gear and spells) on singles.. ok, but on 2-3 mobs I need focused casting and thats if I don't die doing it, It takes a long fight of 4+ mobs to guarantee I the warlock, "queen of ae damage" to win against a single target scout class.  The assassin parsing higher or smae as me has pulled aggro 4 times in the last 6 months where I have had 3-6 deaths from aggro per raid since the rift changes alone. The rangers (we have 2) have been popping ahead of me back and forth in ae content less than 4 mobs.  We have no Swash None of those 3 classes has ever dragged aggro even a 10th of what I get, pushing higher dps, and I'm a "babbied" warlock lots of aggro mods.  Always 48% moderate or Troub or harm link.  They just have the ability to go hard sooner and safer.  I don't Apoc on the pull I'm responsible with aggro control... they just slip it sooo much better.  Give warlock the aggro transfer of an assassin or swash Guarantee it would look much different, even a rangers siphon.  They can transfer on any class too it isn't restricted to fighter like ours.  So when theres 3-4 sorcerers in the raid and only 2-3 fighters someone's crap outta luck on a boon.  not that 4% is all that much to cry over, but it's something.  The cross raid is all that makes it not excruciating but to restrict it to 4% AND fighter only is too far under weighted compared to the scout transfers of any target and 30+% group only. Now can say that aggro transfer etc are getting nerfed across the boards and those scouts will now pull aggro, but we will get it first.  Since they have between 2-4 slips higher than ours and faster casting, they are still transferring more than us but less than before, we aren't getting any aggro boost, but their aggro loss is also our aggro loss. I chose warlock for ae damage... single target classes should not be able to take my arena in dps so easily without the risk I have of ae aggro.  Our AE aggro risk is higher than that of the scouts who wear chain, and they are out parsing us.  It was one thing when we relied on their dps to keep us safer.. but the aggro changes negate or lessen it even more. I am curious myself on the role of the warlock if not for ae dps... I changed from a coercer so I have no desire to be utility.  I feel we need more aggro transfer or redux similar to chain wearing scouts.

[Dasein-07]

<p>I agree with all of the other posters here. Warlock is a great class and I would never switch, but the level of frustration is getting extremely high. On our raids, we have a Ranger and a Swash who regularly outparse the rest of the raid by 300-400 DPS. We have 3 regular mages, a Warlock, Wizard and Conjie, all similarly geared and we all usually parse raid wide within 100 DPS of each other. All three of us are left in the dust by the scouts. Even more frustrating is the fact that the only way the scouts can get agro is to open up with their largest attack right on the pull. I can pull agro pretty much at will on AE encounters. I would like to have seen the effect of the agro generation nerfs. Maybe they would have been bad, I'm sure they would have affected us, but at least it might have forced the other DPS classes to pay some attention to agro.</p><p>I don't see the changes to the int line as a solution neither. All that will do is further lower our single target DPS, while increasing our survivability in AE situations. To me, that is a wash and not worth the change.</p><p>Increase Boon to 10%.</p><p>Get rid of Rift agro</p><p>Give warlocks some luv</p><p>Let us compete with Scouts</p>

[miliskel]

<cite>Dasein-07 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with all of the other posters here. Warlock is a great class and I would never switch, but the level of frustration is getting extremely high. On our raids, we have a Ranger and a Swash who regularly outparse the rest of the raid by 300-400 DPS. We have 3 regular mages, a Warlock, Wizard and Conjie, all similarly geared and we all usually parse raid wide within 100 DPS of each other. All three of us are left in the dust by the scouts. Even more frustrating is the fact that the only way the scouts can get agro is to open up with their largest attack right on the pull. I can pull agro pretty much at will on AE encounters. I would like to have seen the effect of the agro generation nerfs. Maybe they would have been bad, I'm sure they would have affected us, but at least it might have forced the other DPS classes to pay some attention to agro.</p><p>tbh just increase int line hate gain to 30 % less <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>I don't see the changes to the int line as a solution neither. All that will do is further lower our single target DPS, while increasing our survivability in AE situations. To me, that is a wash and not worth the change.</p><p>Increase Boon to 10%.</p><p>Get rid of Rift agro</p><p>Give warlocks some luv</p><p> give warlocks luv? thats against soe policy i swear , we get hatred and nerfs =/ </p><p>Let us compete with Scouts</p><p>we have a bit more utility thann they do , not nough to make up for the difference tho <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>

[Pilgrim Divine]

<cite>miliskel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein-07 wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Let us compete with Scouts</p><p>we have a bit more utility thann they do , not nough to make up for the difference tho <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> </blockquote>more utility than scouts?

[Aranieq]

I took the liberty of adding a poll topic for this discussion. It's isn't intended to take away from this thread but to involve the wizards as well. Feel free to share, or just vote <a href="http://www.eq2bm.com/news.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://www.eq2battlemage....if" border="0"></a> <p><b><span style="font-size: x-large"><span style="color: #66ff00"><a href="http://www.eq2bm.com/news.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Your opinion</a>: </span></span></b><span style="font-size: x-small">We want to know what you think...</span></p> <ul><li><a href="http://www.eq2battlemage.com/viewtopic.php?t=137" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Is there a Threat to Sorcerer Identity?</a> <ul><li>So many threads debating the future of Warlocks and Wizards and the threat that upcoming changes pose to them.</li><li>Where do you stand and what ideas would you pose to fix them?</li></ul> </li></ul>

[Hellswrath]

<cite>Dasein-07 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with all of the other posters here. Warlock is a great class and I would never switch, but the level of frustration is getting extremely high. On our raids, we have a Ranger and a Swash who regularly outparse the rest of the raid by 300-400 DPS. We have 3 regular mages, a Warlock, Wizard and Conjie, all similarly geared and we all usually parse raid wide within 100 DPS of each other. All three of us are left in the dust by the scouts. Even more frustrating is the fact that the only way the scouts can get agro is to open up with their largest attack right on the pull. I can pull agro pretty much at will on AE encounters. I would like to have seen the effect of the agro generation nerfs. Maybe they would have been bad, I'm sure they would have affected us, but at least it might have forced the other DPS classes to pay some attention to agro.</p><p>I don't see the changes to the int line as a solution neither. All that will do is further lower our single target DPS, while increasing our survivability in AE situations. To me, that is a wash and not worth the change.</p><p>Increase Boon to 10%.</p><p>Get rid of Rift agro</p><p>Give warlocks some luv</p><p>Let us compete with Scouts</p></blockquote><p> I wholeheartedly agree.  The biggest problem is that the devs continue to try and use our AA lines to fix our class, while scouts can focus on improving their role with no thoughts to getting aggro.</p><p>What we need is an increase in our deaggro ability that is on par with other classes without resorting to AA lines which do not aid in damage.</p>

[miliskel]

just to add , i have never beaten scouts for 1st position on the parse except a few times on some trash mobs in lyceum and then not on the zonewide at all. i always have a troub and sometimes have a pally , amends always go to me or the wizard , me for trash and the wizard for nameds. my dps is around 1k singles withot amends and 1 - 2k on encounter and if i push 2 k i will pull aggro. i am speced int 4448 wis 48482 and dps on warlock yet aggro is still horrible <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and having hate transfer master at 32 that is better than the  T7 adept.

[Groma]

Curious, what kind of tank you have? Here is where i was a month ago. Hastenings and Explosives maxed.  Agility/Str in the KOS trees. Group setup: Fury, Troub, Illusionist, Wizard, Me, Random caster TC, Synergysm, Trouby buffs, only group buffs from fury and anyone else, Wizard had iceshape. I could easily parse 2.1k raidwide in Lyceum and Labs, at the time hadn't cleared any EoF zones but FTH and we were wiping to Treyloth multiple times and skewing the numbers.  Those 4 mob trash pulls in FTH i was breaking 5k, best parse was 7.2k on the big heroic pull at the stairs in Lyceum. MT group: Zerker, Templar, Warden, Defiler, Dirge, Coercer. Our DPS is great, and with the right MT AND Caster group setup, we can really rip up the parses.  I was never beaten by any other member in the raid in a KoS zone, and FTH i was only beaten a couple times, mainly because of multiple wipes on Treyloth and myself always being kicked back and subsequently killed. The downfall of our class is for us to consistently top the parse we need 2 de-hates(trouby/illu) and the MT group needs multiple hate buffers(coercer/dirge) I don't think it should ever be this way.  Of course, we should shine with help from other classes because of the nature of the game and raiding, classes working together. The problem is we have to hold back without support classes, where as other classes just need help to buff their dps.  The is absolutely no reason anyone on a raid should have to hold back.  No one but sorcerers has to do it, and it just doesn't fit with the class design for everyone else.  Scouts get poisons, summoners get pets to split aggro.  We are the only true dps class that cannot go all out all the time, and it sucks.

[Aranieq]

It often feels like to balance us well in the raid requires similar group restrictions and considerations as the MT. how many have even been told you can't have dps group make-up/buffs because of your aggro.  "you'll just die". I mean lowering a top DPS class dps as a form of aggro control. Lowering our dps potential isn't the answer.. If I wanted to only contribute that level dps I'd have made a conjurer my primary. <ul><li>I don't want to be utility</li><li>I don't want <b>to not</b> push my potential</li><li>I don't want to be any lower on the parse than my dps counterparts (pred's etc).</li><li>I don't want to lower my dps to gain defenses that my counterparts already have, negating my need for the defense in the first place </li></ul>Holding back is a great point.  Sorcerers are the end all of mage damage.  Conjurers can push more dps than us in the right set up with half the aggro.  But sorcerers are the bomb droppers and massive damage class.  We should not be holding back as a means of aggro control.  That puts us back in the lvl 20 group days when the PU group tank says dont engage untill the mob is at 70% I'm sick of aggro swaps.  I don't desire playing that way.  I don't like the image warlocks have that we just unload on the pull because "there is no way we pull aggro unless we do".  Other classes don't fully understand aggro/dps dance we have because it is inconceivable to pull aggro when they are parsing the same or higher.  I played a coercer since the game was released.  Warlocks annoyed the crap out of me because i was parsing  top 3-5 as a coercer and an AE class, and with less aggro buffs than the locks, why couldn't they "just control their aggro"?  When I changed over to warlock... I was told "you either parse what your supposed to and die and everyone hates you or you sit back and hit 2 nukes and everyone hates you for parsing too low".  "Don't expect them to understand, don't try to explain it to them". we're supposed to hit hard.  <u>Give us chain-mail if we are going to be hitting the same as scouts and more aggro.</u>  <u>Increase our defense buffs so when we pull aggro from dps spikes, we can mini tank til we slip the aggro, like SK's do.</u>  An SK can hit a nice dps spike similar to us but they wear plate and can heal themselves better than some healers could heal them.  <u>Give us reactive de-aggro that we don't have to trade self defeating dps for.</u>   <u>Add aggro siphon component to sorcerer damage shields, so we contribute more aggro to the tank without upsetting the dps balance.</u> I don't mean just going down one of the lines that reduce our dps below that of the non-pure dps mages scouts fighters... because that is the same as holding back.  If I could still parse similar to the scouts even summoners down those lines I would not be so distraught.  <u>Why should we go de-aggro and defense lines when it requires giving up what we are</u>.. our dps? It's self defeating.  To be defended and have aggro control you either  "hold back" via spell cycles or your give it up all together and spec to defensive. 

[Lisabethy]

Let me start by saying that I've been raiding for over 2 years now - I love raiding.  I betrayed from a fully mastered/fabled wizard to a warlock because I wanted more of a challenge. I have loved this game since I've started although in the last month, I've been more frustrated than I've ever been. Last week, I nearly retired my character. The changes they've made regarding aggro have made just about every sorcerer I know absolutely miserable.  Sure, I can top the parse. If I freaking live. And that's what it comes down to. I have aggro reduction in group. Our MT usually has a swashy/assy (depending on encounter), dirge and sometimes even a coercer for added hate. And yet, if I even get close to letting loose, buhbye me. And yes, I know how to manage my aggro. I actually put AA points in Concussive and use it every single darn time it's up. Yes, I know some of the hardercore guilds will say "Get a better tank" - but that alone is not the solution.  <b>No other class generates the quantity and quality of aggro we do without quality aggro control abilities. </b>No other class has to use an ENTIRE AA line in order to do something that should be a natural ability.  No other class has to hold back as much as we do, basically only halfway playing our class. And yay - they revamped the INT line so that it's a viable line - however, we take a huge hit to our dps no matter how you cut it. We won't need the INT line once we cut our own dps. Quite frankly, I'm tired of loving the possibility of a class but hating how it actually is.  Especially after watching the assy, swashy and ranger top the parse, take the hits, and de-aggro themselves nearly instantly without putting down their drink or taking their eyes off the TV. I'm not saying make it easier. I think that the challenge of playing a high dps sorcerer is fun. But give us the tools to be at the top without sacrificing damage. Give us the tools that we have to figure out how to maximize them in order to excel. Enough sorcerers have been sacrificed - I promise, the master drop rate doesn't increase!

[miliskel]

why let scouts generate less hate + better aggro tools + wear chain? and why bother spending money on a t7 master when u can spend 1pp on a T3 master with the same results? the only time i beat the scouts is on the corsolander , and even then the ranger almost beats me

[Windowlicker]

To be honest folks, I really do enjoy the aggro we pull.  I might be a freak for saying it, but I really enjoy having to walk such a defined line between tanking the mob and not building too much hate. Personally I don't see our hate as an issue, as a T1 DPS class that falls into the "Glass Cannon" catagory *should* be extremely high aggro.  What I do see as an issue however, is having LOW damage with the same level of hate. Keep our hate the same, boost our damage. I don't need to be above and beyond the other T1 DPS classes, I just strive to be on par with them.

[Aranieq]

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>To be honest folks, I really do enjoy the aggro we pull.  I might be a freak for saying it, but I really enjoy having to walk such a defined line between tanking the mob and not building too much hate. Personally I don't see our hate as an issue, as a T1 DPS class that falls into the "Glass Cannon" catagory *should* be extremely high aggro.  <b>What I do see as an issue however, is having LOW damage with the same level of hate.</b> Keep our hate the same, boost our damage. I don't need to be above and beyond the other T1 DPS classes, I just strive to be on par with them. </blockquote>I think this is a good to the point summation.  Your freak-ness aside it's very to the point. how can we get more damage though which will lead to even more aggro than we presently have.  I think the dps/aggro ratio is off-balance for us.  Or maybe the aggro redux/slip to dps ratio is better expression. I have /feedbacked a few times myself a text statement to represent aggravation/threat hate etc.  If we could calculate how much aggro we were parsing and slipping and make an efficiency chart of sorts of our aggro/dps and show a comparison it would really put things into perspective.

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Aranieq wrote:</cite><blockquote> I have /feedbacked a few times myself a text statement to represent aggravation/threat hate etc.  If we could calculate how much aggro we were parsing and slipping and make an efficiency chart of sorts of our aggro/dps and show a comparison it would really put things into perspective. </blockquote> It's also fair to mention, the concept behind the Warlock *is* neat .. but setting it up stats wise had to be a nightmare.  Anything that hits for what we do in an area of effect is likely going to just build heaploads of aggro. I think what I would probably do is: - Reverse the 4% nerf to the wisdom line - Perhaps have a declining scale that our AE spells will hit encounters or multi-target pulls.  Example: Let's say your Chaostorm hits for 500 on each mob. (For arguments sake, I do realize it hits for more) Currently, if you drop your Chaostorm it'll hit up to what ... 12 mobs for three ticks of 500.  What would happen if instead of hitting all 12 for those three ticks of 500 ... it would hit the first mob for three ticks of 1,000, the second mob for three ticks of 900, the third mob for three ticks of 800 .. or something that would scale properly? What it might do is improve our single target DPS, Improve our DPS vs two mob encounters ... without making us really overpowered when someone pulls Six mobs.  At the same time, it would allow us to maintain our title as "The Best AE class". Just a thought, I mean where is the hangup on our AE's hitting the full balance of mobs for similar values?

[Agaxiq]

My problem with 5 points in the Chaostorm AA is that its really dangerous to use now.  I've had it pull mobs through walls due to the massive radius it has now. Tempted to revert and dump the points in Nebula instead, because I find myself too scared to use it now - for the fear of pulling unwanted mobs. Anyone else have this problem? agressiv

[Aranieq]

I did for a while, then went Propagations for few months. I missed having the larger chaos storm on raids... in groups I do pull stuff all the time with it and irks my husband tank but eh... "you married a warlock" i tell em. I like the range on raids though.

[Primalooze]

I couldnt agree more... i have been a warlock since the start.... agro issues, coupled with reduced dps have left me seriously considering rolling a scout... our guild assasin parses nearly the same as both our 2 raid capable warlocks put together on single raid targets. on multi-mob encouters of 2 or 3 mobs he still beats us due to not being able to cast to our capabilities.... at the moment unless its a very large group and we have the perfect raid warlock setup.... i.e. pali/troub etc i might as well bring my dps templar!!!! and i am not joking either...... I am currently in the middle of a MIS raid  with 3 warlocks... and our raid leader has stuck us all in the same group with no usefull buffs... purly becasue our troub was late for raid... my dps is currently 40% lower than the assasins and rangers... i am throwing in concussive 4 or 5 times per fight, and have still died alot more than the rangers/assasins... its getting to be beyond a joke

[Aranieq]

I'm curious if any warlocks.. or Sorcerers for that matter would be interested in a different armor base? before you laugh and say mages have always worn silk... all 3 priest classes have a separate armor class.... fighters use 2 separate classes. Only scouts and mages wear the same armor class throughout the entire archetype. I'm not saying I need to be an SK or anything so dramatic, but would giving us more defense via mitigation/avoidance/parry skils... be in line with the Image of what we have for a warlock? From a roleplay perspective I don't see warlock and wizard the same.  I see Wizards bringing down lightning and fire from a far as the armies try to get through the fighters to them, and I see us in the middle of battle duel weilding wands and symbols and dropping massive poisions and minions of the void on an army of foes.   We're suposed to be the end-all of dropping the armys of our foes.  I don't see mych way around our aggro, but we can be more defended.  Perhaps a "Vaccuum" with a trigger effect like netherous realm.. when it's up we can siphon mitigation in blue form similar to SK's.  Maybee reverse AE immunity abilities type, where our protection works only when damaged, or targeted. Even a Melee skill similar to poison weapons that brings on fever and can reduce our aggro, but requires us to melee to use it.. ie be close.  We are fairly melee hybrid set up as mages go, often being right in there.  Most melee have at least a spell as well as their CA's... we could be given CA's that require us to risk even more by being close and give us a chance to reduce our aggro. I'm only trying to think of potentials.. not change the class 180 or anything.  Just curious on other views on the idea of giving us a more hybrid feel... a more combat ready feel.

[miliskel]

i think perhaps we can get some skill that increases our mitigation by a hell of a load to add to ur suggestions maybe a spell proc , like a poison, to proc 100 ish deaggro on encounter 1.8 times per minute type of thing and finnaly perhaps we could get "woven metal" (yh couldnt think of a name..) where its a combine of plate and silk to give us boosts in mit and sta at the cost of a little int (who needs int when u get about 700 self buffed..?)

[iceriven2]

the ideas that everyone is giving i think are great but to be honest i don't think its a lack of ideas that is keeping warlock or sorcerer's for that matter with out proper deago.  SOE wants the sorcerers to walk a fine line.  So i think the question that needs answering is WHY US? and WHY is the line so LOW??

[Aranieq]

well it always comes down to class balancing, and risk vs reward doesn't it? That's like the holy grail in gaming.. always sought after never achieved. In a nutshell seams warlocks (sorcerers in general) feel: feel free to correct me if I understand it wrong or I'm just projecting my view too much. <ul><li>The risk of our aggro is not equal to the reward of our dps compared to similar dps counterparts</li><li>Class balancing of our dps vs utility vs defense is not matched to that of our more defended dps counterparts</li></ul>Coercers forever had a similar feel.  That on raids their biggest utility was not effective and that their dps was so restrictive AND that they had light defense (ie silk no avoidance etc).  The peak of this was about the time they brought stunable and mezable epics back.  A lot of the explanation I understood behind it was it took some time to get the mechanics to not only work but be balanced to not over power the Coercers while giving them that balance and risk vs reward they desired.  Be sure that wasn't exactly what they were asking for.... but that battle was over a year at least in the running before they got even a glimmer of a respectable change for epic content. I'm just using them as an example that things do change and sometimes it is a lot harder to balance than it looks. I too would like to know what SOE desires for the Warlock specifically.  If we are meant to walk that fine line the reward should be equal to the risk AND the reward for our risk should be equivalent to that of our counterparts, otherwise everyone wold just roll a les risk more reward class... except those freaks like Zahne I guess.

[Primalooze]

ok we just finished MIS and this is our zone parse for my warlock without a troub or external dehate in my group ( i.e. worst possible combination of dehate... just self dehate) Assasin     7619809 | 1794.16 Ranger      7212877 | 1698.35 Necro        5653188 | 1331.10 Brigand     4887307 | 1150.77 Ranger      4065595 | 957.29 Zerker (MA) 3988038 | 939.02 Ranger      3966033 | 933.84 Warlock     3725565 | 877.22 Illusionist   3237232 | 762.24 guess who got agro nearly every single fight... despite chain spamming concussive, NC and VN.... our other two warlocks were just below.... mainly because they were  reluctant to be revived.. about the only zone where this is any different is lyceum (mainly because the groups are slightly bigger with less HP.. so they go down quick) its just soooooooo irritating.... i mean its not as if we bring anything else to the raid?.... our buffs are sub par with other classes (still not convinced seal actually does anything as i still get the resisted ever 2 or 3 spells) no utilty (i i chain cast pillaging during a whole fight... i might just drain enough power for my group mates to cast 1 extra spell.... woot) its all just a bit rubbish.....

[miliskel]

risk vs reward risk : worst aggro in the game reward : less dps than scouts with easy aggro control that just isnt fair , i speced vacous and int a while ago and did about 800 zw and didnt pull aggro compared to 1 - 2k from scouts =( now with hastenings agi wis explosives i pull aggro quite alot and only do 1 - 1.3 k

[Baielfire]

<p>I am torn when i read threads like this. On one hand, there are definite inequalities that I would like to see addressed. Mostly revolveing around gear (compare wizard fabled set bonuses inluding the effect on legs and chest to warlock set bonuses), and stuff like how we get hit extra hard by normalization. Even % increasers like the effect from vine wrapped boots, plasma wand, or dark orb of the mind are less effective for us. Because they are % base, the lower you base dmg number, the less the effect. Since we have no BIG hitters, we lost some effectiveness with these.</p><p> On the other hand, I have to repsectfully disagree about the problems with agro managment and dps. Agro is manageable with decent group managment and good tanks. Our dps is stellar, we just have to work a little harder for it than most classes imho. As a matter of fact, I would go out on a limb and say good warlocks are the hardest working people in the dps game. I can regularly top encounter and zonewide parses. Our other top DPS classes are Ranger, Assasin, Necro (when LB is up), and sometimes a swash. The biggest difference between warlocks and most of the other top dps classes is that most rely to some extent on BIG hits and long recast timers. Whereas a warlock is solid stead dps in any and every fight. Our longest recast (on a spell that matters) is on Apoc, and you don't NEED apoc to be up on every fight to do outstanding dps. I regularly do 2600+ on single target encounters, and when my timing is on I can push that to about 2800-3k. Most AE fights I can do about the same without breaking a sweat, sometimes a little more depending on agro. 3800-4kish is common on FTH 4 mob encounters. My favorite pull in the game is the nice big pull in Lyceaum, I swear ima hit 10k one of these days when I nail the timing and don't lag, but 8900 is my best yet.</p><p> To summarize, warlocks have a lot of problems and inequalities that should/need to be addressed. But, DPS is not one of our problems. We are right at the top, duking it out with with the other classes that also deserve to compete for top spot. And thats exactly how it should be, no class should be the automatic best, but rather we should all be challenging each other to do our best and compete for the top spot.</p><p> For anyone who may be interested btw, I am specced AGI/WIS (well, until this LU anyway) for KoS and Propogations/Hastenings for EoF. Fully Mastered, mostly EoF/KoS fabled but no peices from EoF contested. 5/7 (no pants or shoulders yet /cry )on the warlock set peices although I never wear more than 3 peices since the set bonuses make me a sad panda. Dmg Proc items ftw <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Dasein-07]

<p><span style="font-size: x-small">Well, I must disagree with your disagreement<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">I see several posts from our uber top-line Warlocks saying they have no problem achieving God like DPS (2600 on single pulls). The problem is, it appears to me that these numbers are only possible using Propogations and its affect on item procs. Sooner or later someone at Sony is going to say, oops, that should not affect item procs, and then your whole basis for Warlock having high DPS is in trouble. How much of that 2600 DPS is due to Propogations?</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">I have almost all fabled with some PVP gear and some KOC legendary. All Masters for damage spells and I will normally hit 1100-1400 DPS on single pulls depending on group makeup. For AOE fights it tends to vary widely depending on the length of the fight but 2k to 2.4k about normal. I could post larger AOE numbers, but would be dead 12 seconds into the fight.</span> </p>

[Domiuk]

<p>Its entirely true that for us to really shine we need good groups but many classes have this sort of issue.</p><p>However I expect to still be able to hit 1600+ on a single target in the crap no buffs or dehate group without pulling agro.</p><p>Aoe is a big issue for us as even with an almost perfect setup I will die more often than not if i attempt to push my dps.</p><p>However single target we are capable of competing with all the other DPS classes and that being the case how badly are we broken ?</p><p>I regularly break 2.5k single target and get very very close to 3k and on big aoe encounters I can hit stupid numbers. </p><p>I like my warlock , 3 years reward on the account and he is as fun to play now as he ever was.</p><p>The latest patch has gone in and the new end of line int is a kind of reverse aoe rescue for those really struggling for agro thats the line for you.</p><p>Warlock is one of the harder classes to play well but it is also one of the stronger classes, we are hardly gimped.</p><p>For those of you having real problems in raid i will offer advice , concentrate on single target and in particular cycle your dots. when fighting groups 70% single target and 30% aoe.  You will still stay alive and it will improve your dps.</p>

[Lurch72]

The previous poster(s) are correct. Warlocks don't have dps problems.  Warlocks have aggro control problems which limit the dps the class can exert.  Think of it like a really expensive sports car.   It will go 180 MPH, but the speed limit is still 70.   If you want to change something, raise the speed limit (Hate). It's one of the few dps classes that does not have a built in answer for raid rips.   Summoners split hate with their pets, which allows them to generate some amazing AE dps over long periods of time without getting in trouble.   Necro's get a FD to counter the massive hate spike of Lifeburn.    Sorcerers need something that is hardwired into the classes to equal this.

[miliskel]

hang on , does propogations increase our chance to proc grizzlefazzles thing ? and if it does proc equipment procs then which line do i get rid of ... explosives or hastenings?

[miliskel]

asked a freind and it doesnt , how does it help dps then lol?

[Agaxiq]

It procs off of items, from what I gathered, even though it explicitly says it doesnt.  Most people say you need at least 5-8+ items for it to yield more DPS, and some of that is group DPS as well. As for it working on specific items, I do not know, I don't have anywhere near 5 hostile spell proc items to even bother. I'm guessing it will be fixed, in which case the line will be completely laughable as it is.  Without it proc'ing off items its completely worthless, in my opinion. agressiv

[Aranieq]

I have the 5+ damage proc item range and was Props specd.. it upped my single target dps, it upped the tanks hate via nihilistics 1-3% depending type of tank (which is good IMO).. but I chose to go back to explosive.  We went through almost 2 months with me in props to get good test of it.  We have wizards and rangers and assassins and lots of good/great dps single target and spike dps for all our needs... I didn't feel we needed just another single target dpser. I am part of the AE crew, and when it came to content that was specifically AE oriented where adds needed dropping fast... FAST, well I felt I had lost my specialty too much by giving up my ae dps for the more single target dps.  Mobs dropped much slower just off my 10-18% ae dps loss. I parse lower on single now and my aggro is a pita, but when the RL says "I need the adds down fast I'm not kidding", I feel like I'm in my element again not a watered down wizard, not a proc happy chanter, but a "no one is going to touch this ae parse even when I die" warlock.  I like being a warlock.  This is where I want to shine, what I want to be known for.  I'd just enjoy having a tad more chance of living through it.  Not everyone will agree with this view understandably but my personal choice is to be an AE monster. I would like to have the ability to push my dps potential in ae content more often and have the tools to survive it.  I would like to be able to remotely touch my potential without external de-aggro.  I would like to be more self sufficient in my own aggro control.  I don't need to take the single target dps, or the zone-wide I guess(cept ae heavy zones)... but when we need an AE massacre I want to be able to shine and people to be thankful I was there not upset with me for dying.  I guess for me it's not so much about getting dps but being able to feel like I have something special they need me for more than anyone else and I have the potential to survive it.  I never feel like I am achieving my ae dps potential, I always feel held back.

[miliskel]

aahhh, i want to be ae specialist and have everything in explosives maxed, everything except soul blister maxed and the end abilities, had to go back to int 4448 and the wis line , hoping wis is better than agi. i rather like the idea of being given a new armor type..maybe for rok and just sorcerors so we can take hits for our aggro like scouts when they open up with biggest spike..only way they can pull aggro really...

[Baielfire]

<cite>Dasein-07 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small"> How much of that 2600 DPS is due to Propogations?</span></p></blockquote><p> Actually in my case, the difference individually was a push for Propogations vs. Explosives. I can achieve about the same numbers either way. The difference being that explosives improves only my dps whereas Propogations lets me do the same AND help my group. It actually makes me feel good to have a buff for once that people like having a warlock in group for.</p><p>As for when the devs will wake up and realize that its broken and fix it...I wondered about that for a long time too. It is obviously not executing the stated effect. But now I have a different opinion. It has been broken for so long (over 6 months) that I think they decided to just leave it as is. Its not overpowering, and it provides another viable option for AA specs. If they change it, then every semi-intelligent warlock on the planet will spec the exact same way, hastenings + explosives. The devs have indicated that they would like to add variety and flavor and removing viable AA line choices isn't going to encourage that in any way. If anything I think they might change the text too match its current effect.</p><p>Besides, if they don't have the time to re-evaluate our super sucktastic set armor and bonuses, then they should not have the time to mess with changing abilties that have been in game for over 6 months without being overpowered.</p>

[Domiuk]

<p>"How much of that 2600 DPS is due to Propogations?"</p><p>Same for me I get similar with propagation to what I did with explosives.</p><p>The things that really improve my dps are :   Troubadour and Illusionist.</p><p> Frankly I pretty much need 1 of those 2 in my group to parse well, but either is good.</p><p>With both (rarely) i start spiking up to that magic 3k single target number.</p>

[miliskel]

went to a pickup that seemed to have good setup and with 2 spaces , 1 in the mage group that  had wizzy conjy troub illus and fury they shoved me in g4 , i asked why and they said : " ur a warlock u dont deserve the buffs over any other caster" i left group straight away and put him on ignore the wizard got all the good buffs ( troubador buffs + illus buffs including time compression)<img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Deathspell]

... I 've seen wizards who over-dps'd too soon on purpose because they didn't get amends. They keep dying on purpose... Tank starts to feel bad coz he can't keep the aggro... and what do people think when they see the parse? They see a parse with a giant peak damage of the wizard and think "That wizard is is so uber, he hits so hard, our tank has problems keeping aggro, let's put amends on the wizard". Now the Warlock has to hold back AE (tired of dying otherwise) and his dps parses much lower than the Wizard's, which makes people think they made the right decision to put amends on wizard and a mistake to put it on the warlock. I know not all wizards are dicks, but I've seen this several times now. And to be honest, I can understand people prefer a wizard. A Wizard's dps is just simply more impressive/agressive, people see a huge junk of health disappear with a meteor sound and wizards also have lower risk of getting adds by AoE. Also, when in difficult encounters, the wizard's final nuke always comes as an instant salvation instead of an unnoticeable DoT from a Warlock. Wizards are hardhitting-fast-dps-safe-singletarget instead of a slow-dotting-risky-AoEing Warlock. For all I care, they keep the dps ratios as they are now, but I wish they'd make the Warlock class more fancy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Baielfire]

<cite>miliskel wrote:</cite><blockquote>went to a pickup that seemed to have good setup and with 2 spaces , 1 in the mage group that  had wizzy conjy troub illus and fury they shoved me in g4 , i asked why and they said : " ur a warlock u dont deserve the buffs over any other caster" i left group straight away and put him on ignore the wizard got all the good buffs ( troubador buffs + illus buffs including time compression)<img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> In my experience warlocks will encounter this attitude a lot. Let's face it, for a long time there weren't many warlocks to start with, and a lot of the ones that were around were quite frankly teh suck. So there is a lot of prejudice out there. Raid leaders sometimes don't recognize our potential and you have to work extra hard to prove yourself to them. Imo thats the sure sign of a bad raid leader though. A good RL should experiment a bit and find out what maximizes the overall raid dps instead of relying on class preconceptions to make choices about who gets what buffs. If a wizard does 1800 and goes up too 2k w/ time compression (net gain of +200) and a warlock does 1600 but goes up to 2000 w/ TC (net gain 400) then the warlock should be the one getting the buffs. Those are arbitrary numbers of course, but the point is the same. Also a lot of people don't recognize just how big of a boost we got to our single target dps from the EoF hastenings line. Those shortened recast times help a lot and imo wizards should no longer be viewed as the default winner of single target sorceror dps.</p>

[Phineus]

<p> I dont think very many people really understand that your personal dps and zw dps is very raid oriented, I.E. if your raid is doing 8k zw your not doing 2600 dps on a solo(dont laugh I seen 8k zw not that long ago). Now if your raid is doing 40 or 50k dps then you can hit 2-3k on solos without a huge amount of effort. I spike up around 5k on an encounter and then it coasts down til the mob is dead. The faster the mob dies the higher my dps. </p><p> We did Loa the other night and I hit 2k on a 20k zw(some of the 5 mob epic x2 pulls I was just missing 4k by a couple seconds). So thats 10% of overall dps. Perhaps a number like 2600 followed by percentage of raid dps would give a better idea of how well you are doing. Someone thats doing 20% of a raids dps is doing a lot of dps(dont laugh I seen it and it wasnt a warlock it is a swashbuckler). I grabbed me some tc lovin and hit 1800 on a solo which is a personal best(no trouby /sobs). Beat all the preds and rogues too. Then again your percentage will be different raid to raid by the amount of t1 dps in the raid. I seen raids with 6 rangers do very high zw and raids with 6 tanks do very low zw. I come in number 1 on my warlock with my current guild and came in number 2 on my warlock with my last guild. The competition in my last guild is a lot more fierce so I may be hard pressed to come in the top 2 now. Once the preds get an over 100 damage rating bow its hard to keep up. </p>

[Baielfire]

<cite>Deathspell wrote:</cite><blockquote>... I 've seen wizards who over-dps'd too soon on purpose because they didn't get amends. They keep dying on purpose... Tank starts to feel bad coz he can't keep the aggro... and what do people think when they see the parse? They see a parse with a giant peak damage of the wizard and think "That wizard is is so uber, he hits so hard, our tank has problems keeping aggro, let's put amends on the wizard". Now the Warlock has to hold back AE (tired of dying otherwise) and his dps parses much lower than the Wizard's, which makes people think they made the right decision to put amends on wizard and a mistake to put it on the warlock. </blockquote><p> I dunno, personally I think when your trying to build optimal dps groups in a raid and maximize the opportunites to make use of buffs, there isn't really a place for a pally. Our. Our normal group is usually either</p><p>Fury</p><p>Wizard</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Illusionist</p><p>Troubador</p><p>Necromancer</p><p>or</p><p>Fury</p><p>Wizard</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Illusionist</p><p>Troubador</p><p>Scout type (most often ranger or brigand)</p><p>I would rather be in either of those groups to maximize dps any day than be with a pally. Sure, with a pally you can go all out AE and NEVER worry about agro. But your potential loses so much when you miss out on VIM, Frigid Gift, TC/Synergism, Allegro, DKTM, PoM, Aria of Acclimation. With this setup I can go full burn for 100% of single target fights and operate at about 75% on AE fights. 75% of my optimum dps in this group is better than 100% of my optimum dps in group with a pally which is usually lacking the buffs from the aforementioned classes.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, pally is my favorite tank for heroic content, and amends can be huge and its a nice refreshing change every once in a while to be with one and able to chain cast without agro worry. But, when I am really trying to crank out dps and top a zonewide, pally in the group just for amends (and the 1% base spell dmg increase) isn't going to cut it. Maybe if I was being purely selfish and trying to find a way to maximize my personal dps at the expense of the raids overall dps, but not in a normal circumstance.</p>

[Baielfire]

Phineus@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p> I dont think very many people really understand that your personal dps and zw dps is very raid oriented, I.E. if your raid is doing 8k zw your not doing 2600 dps on a solo(dont laugh I seen 8k zw not that long ago). Now if your raid is doing 40 or 50k dps then you can hit 2-3k on solos without a huge amount of effort. I spike up around 5k on an encounter and then it coasts down til the mob is dead. The faster the mob dies the higher my dps. </p></blockquote><p>Thats a very good point, in general terms, the higher your raid dps, the higher your personal dps will be. I actually find that there are "sweet spots" in the length of a fight. Too short and my ExtDPS suffers because the classes with mega hits can bring the mob down so fast that I don't get time to rack up the dmg, and too long and my dps will start to decline because of  power problems. And of course if the fight ends while your at the top of a peak as opposed to a valley in your normal dps spikeyness then your gonna look better. While raiding I keep act open and running on a computer to my side so that I can monitor dps in real time at a glance and get a feel for how much harder I can push, or if I need to back off a bit. Of course there are spikes, but I would estimate that I can push to and hold around 2600 (averaging out the spikes) as long as the fight lasts at least 20 seconds or so and for as long as my power bar holds out. Of course this goes down once you have to start cannibalizing or using power items, and assumes its not a fight where you need to do a lot of switching between add spawns, curing people, moving position etc... I respec'd today after the AA changes and made some gear changes before our FTH raid. I found that I was able to push to and hold at 3200 ExtDPS for Shredder and Othysis. Trash died to fast for me to get up to 3200 but I parsed about 2600 per fight and was steadily climbing until the mobs death. Numbers on treyloth and malkonis were lower because of aspects of the encounters.</p><p> I long time ago, I used to raid with an alliance of folks. All great people and very fun to raid with, but not super serious about raiding. I generally topped the parse, but it was not uncommon to see individual people accounting for 15%+ of total raid dps. In some zones a single person might even account for 20-25% of total raid dps. Imho that just how it goes with "casual" raid alliances or pick up raids. there will be standouts and not-so-standouts based on experience, effort, and group setup. Now that I am with a serious minded raid guild, the top people usually account for 8-10% of a zonewide. For example, I pulled up and am looking at a random MMIS zonewide from earlier this month. Top person (me) did 2200 zonewide (10% of raid dmg). Next came ranger, necro, ranger, wizard, illusionist, swash. % of dmg  was 9%, 8, 8, 8, 8, 7 respectivly. Difference between top dps and bottom zonewide was 2200 - 1650. My group in this instance was the Fury/Troub/Illu/Wizard/Warlock/Ranger combo. Total raid zonewide wasn't all that spectacular measuring in at 23k. Our assasin was absent that night or the numbers would have prolly been a little bit higher for everyone and it would have likely been a toss up whether he or I would be in the top spot.</p><p>*edited for some spelling errors</p>

[miliskel]

our setup is normally this for mages : perfect setup imo : fury troub illus scout who gets all scout buffs mage mage

[Deathspell]

<cite>Baielfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deathspell wrote:</cite><blockquote>... I 've seen wizards who over-dps'd too soon on purpose because they didn't get amends. They keep dying on purpose... Tank starts to feel bad coz he can't keep the aggro... and what do people think when they see the parse? They see a parse with a giant peak damage of the wizard and think "That wizard is is so uber, he hits so hard, our tank has problems keeping aggro, let's put amends on the wizard". Now the Warlock has to hold back AE (tired of dying otherwise) and his dps parses much lower than the Wizard's, which makes people think they made the right decision to put amends on wizard and a mistake to put it on the warlock. </blockquote><p> I dunno, personally I think when your trying to build optimal dps groups in a raid and maximize the opportunites to make use of buffs, there isn't really a place for a pally. Our. Our normal group is usually either</p><p>Fury</p><p>Wizard</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Illusionist</p><p>Troubador</p><p>Necromancer</p><p>or</p><p>Fury</p><p>Wizard</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Illusionist</p><p>Troubador</p><p>Scout type (most often ranger or brigand)</p><p>I would rather be in either of those groups to maximize dps any day than be with a pally. Sure, with a pally you can go all out AE and NEVER worry about agro. But your potential loses so much when you miss out on VIM, Frigid Gift, TC/Synergism, Allegro, DKTM, PoM, Aria of Acclimation. With this setup I can go full burn for 100% of single target fights and operate at about 75% on AE fights. 75% of my optimum dps in this group is better than 100% of my optimum dps in group with a pally which is usually lacking the buffs from the aforementioned classes.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, pally is my favorite tank for heroic content, and amends can be huge and its a nice refreshing change every once in a while to be with one and able to chain cast without agro worry. But, when I am really trying to crank out dps and top a zonewide, pally in the group just for amends (and the 1% base spell dmg increase) isn't going to cut it. Maybe if I was being purely selfish and trying to find a way to maximize my personal dps at the expense of the raids overall dps, but not in a normal circumstance.</p></blockquote> You're right, ofcourse it's not just the Amends buff, there's also a lot of other buffs very useful to us. I just kept it with Amends because that's the most widely known buff for a dps class to get.

[Windowlicker]

Phineus@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p> I dont think very many people really understand that your personal dps and zw dps is very raid oriented, I.E. if your raid is doing 8k zw your not doing 2600 dps on a solo(dont laugh I seen 8k zw not that long ago). Now if your raid is doing 40 or 50k dps then you can hit 2-3k on solos without a huge amount of effort. I spike up around 5k on an encounter and then it coasts down til the mob is dead. The faster the mob dies the higher my dps. </p></blockquote><p>This is true.</p><p>As I've stated above, my problem isn't in the fact we do too little dps.  It's not in the fact we take too much aggro too easily.</p><p>My problem is other T1 DPS classes are able to hit our numbers with shoddy gear and spells/combat abilities that aren't *as* upgraded.</p><p>I haven't had time to really test out the new patch as of yet.  Did an instance last night and definately noticed my DPS was a bit lower using STR/AGI then the old STR/WIS build. </p>

[miliskel]

i have went wis int after this gu and seems well , i have yet to raid with it but in sos working on claymore i couldnt pull aggro without fhs and even then i have this lovely instant deaggro by 2 places , coecer thoughtsnap , death march, harm touch ,rescue , fd and if nothing is up somehow then they have my detuants on top ( with the new ranged one too ) and the tank encounter taunts , dont see anything bad about this spec lol. waiting to raid lyc in particular forthe huge encounters lol

[Aranieq]

I was a little inspired by this thread and the Sorcerer community the last couple weeks so did a little feature comic for yas...  btw im a suxors poet hehe <a href="http://www.eq2bm.com/news.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://www.eq2bm.com/imag...pg" border="0"></a>

[Baielfire]

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><p>My problem is other T1 DPS classes are able to hit our numbers with shoddy gear and spells/combat abilities that aren't *as* upgraded.</p><p>I haven't had time to really test out the new patch as of yet.  Did an instance last night and definately noticed my DPS was a bit lower using STR/AGI then the old STR/WIS build. </p></blockquote><p>I would disagree though, the comparison I offered was vs. scouts that are comparativly geared. I was able to hold my own long before becoming fully mastered, or obtaining much high end gear. Even now, most of the gear I use is fairly easy to obtain.</p><p> I also found the opposite to be true after switching to STR/AGI. My dps went up compared to what I had been doing with WIS/AGI. What was your total crit % chance? I swapped out some gear and changed a few adornments to maximize the potential for crits. Still have a ways to go, but I was at 32% crit chance, 36% when using a potion. I found myself wishing that I had tried this build a while ago, but I was waiting to get another good secondary item. I still haven't gotten the item I desire but the changes from SoE forced my hand. DPS was a little more spikey than I am used to, or would like to see. But, I guess I'll just have to deal with that. Another interesting point that can make a huge difference in the two builds...the increased crit chance affects procs, giving them a higher chance to crit. But the base dmg increase from WIS line has never affected them. If your not using a lot of items with procs, then the potential of the STR line isn't being fully utilized. </p><p>When you say you ran an instance and noticed a drop in overall dps, do you mean a raid instance or some heroic content? Because of the speed at which things die in heroic instances I don't think they can ever give you an accurate feel for capability. Imho heroic content has always been, and will always be a simplistic game of button mashing and nothing more. </p>

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Baielfire wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>When you say you ran an instance and noticed a drop in overall dps, do you mean a raid instance or some heroic content? Because of the speed at which things die in heroic instances I don't think they can ever give you an accurate feel for capability. Imho heroic content has always been, and will always be a simplistic game of button mashing and nothing more. </p></blockquote> I have more testing to do, but my main point is in the fact that some scouts wearing barely upgraded gear .. with barely upgraded spells are able to top my DPS by 300-400 points in some cases. The setup on my character isn't perfect, but it's not horrible either.  Check my highest magical hit out on Players, and my gear setup if you'd like. I do hit like a truck, but my main point is we seem slightly off balance in contrast to the other DPS classes still. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel we should still come out on top if two mobs are pulled.  It shouldn't take a 3 or 4 mob pull before we really start to shine.