Random thought about PVP equity... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Vilesummon

06-20-2007, 06:05 PM

Okay, I have been thinking about the whole exile facet of the game and really can't understand why if SOE wants to make PVP more equitable and more balanced they can't look at one simple solution. Simple thought, why can't all classes be played by both alignments? Hmmmm, I know some will say...oh, that indeed would be a great idea...but I also know some others would say, how can an assassin be good? I guess I view it like this, exiles get the benefit of all buff/debuff combinations available in the game. This clearly makes raiding easier, so even though exiles don't get PVP gear they can offset this with raid gear. Obviously using the same buff/debuff combination; you are going to make the PVP skew in favor of exiles once they have had time to raid enough...and push deeper into raid zones since they have all classes available. In a seperate thread, one newer exile pointed out they are easily getting at least 8k more dps since exile...and thinks they might be able to push it as high as 12k more. Obviously, due to buffs and such; I easily believe that is possible. I have seen guilds like NPU and Troops of Doom in action with all classes. I think the best balance you can give is to allow the classes to be available to all sides...and I also believe that you can make nice story lines to explain how an assassin can be good...the only tough sale might be a PALLY being evil. For example, after an assassin begins a life in the evil city of Freeport, there would be no reason that the assassin couldn't see that the killing they are doing is pointless and wrong and want to engage in service for the QUEEN to end the senseless bloodshed by assassinate some of the troublesome freeps that are tormenting the law abiding citizens of Qeynos. That is just an example, but I am sure more people can come up with stories of how a Conj became seduced by the darkness and wanting to slaughter anyone and everyone...and all the other classes that would need to convert. Perhaps the story could be as simple as what we had seen in the past; the character got tired of the slaughter of one side having a larger population and taking advantage of it. As I said, I think PVP needs looked at in the short term...and SOE is doing some of it, but is missing some obvious inequities in the whole system.

CresentBlade

06-21-2007, 04:00 AM

Should make it FFA server, they can keep the current level ranges just make it every woman/man for them selves. You know there are some people on your team you would love to kill<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Xunen

06-21-2007, 04:05 AM

Aww, those big red letters hurt my eyes.

Daemondred

06-21-2007, 04:41 AM

Vilesummon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Okay, I have been thinking about the whole exile facet of the game and really can't understand why if SOE wants to make PVP more equitable and more balanced they can't look at one simple solution. Simple thought, why can't all classes be played by both alignments? Hmmmm, I know some will say...oh, that indeed would be a great idea...but I also know some others would say, how can an assassin be good? I guess I view it like this, exiles get the benefit of all buff/debuff combinations available in the game. This clearly makes raiding easier, so even though exiles don't get PVP gear they can offset this with raid gear. Obviously using the same buff/debuff combination; you are going to make the PVP skew in favor of exiles once they have had time to raid enough...and push deeper into raid zones since they have all classes available. In a seperate thread, one newer exile pointed out they are easily getting at least 8k more dps since exile...and thinks they might be able to push it as high as 12k more. Obviously, due to buffs and such; I easily believe that is possible. I have seen guilds like NPU and Troops of Doom in action with all classes. I think the best balance you can give is to allow the classes to be available to all sides...and I also believe that you can make nice story lines to explain how an assassin can be good...the only tough sale might be a PALLY being evil. For example, after an assassin begins a life in the evil city of Freeport, there would be no reason that the assassin couldn't see that the killing they are doing is pointless and wrong and want to engage in service for the QUEEN to end the senseless bloodshed by assassinate some of the troublesome freeps that are tormenting the law abiding citizens of Qeynos. That is just an example, but I am sure more people can come up with stories of how a Conj became seduced by the darkness and wanting to slaughter anyone and everyone...and all the other classes that would need to convert. Perhaps the story could be as simple as what we had seen in the past; the character got tired of the slaughter of one side having a larger population and taking advantage of it. As I said, I think PVP needs looked at in the short term...and SOE is doing some of it, but is missing some obvious inequities in the whole system. </blockquote> Just remove the forced respec at the end of the exile quest and problem solved. Make it a choice to respec to the alternate faction class.As a trade off this would enable all factions to benefit from all classes the main advantage of being exile. They would then have to give Exiles PvP gear. I dont think you would get many complaints from Q or FP in this, it benefits everyone.

Mordumor

06-21-2007, 11:29 AM

Hrmm. As the raid general of Overlords, I say No "Goodies" welcome. What we do welcome, is the challenge of clearing raid zones with what the developers intended, and the fact is we do. We take pride in our accomplishments as a city faction guild and plan to be the first to clear all EoF. Therefore, we only recruit those that have the same "Can Do" attitude.Chel Drek cleared. Clock work cleared.Freethinkers, last room. Yes Treloth is a [Removed for Content], but 21% more and the zone will be cleared in the same night.Inner Sanctum, last room. All cleared except Mayong (may need further progression in emerald halls).Emerald Halls, we will be on the 2nd floor next raid since they nerfed the rumbler.Now contested is a different story, and raid pvp can be out of balance, but you counter this with dedication, skill and numbers. When freeport decides to take what is hers, it will be done. This is very soon in our eyes. To those of you who try to be the very best your class offers, we are interested.

Bozidar

06-21-2007, 11:36 AM

There is PvP equity? Awesome! How much have i built up so far? Do i have enough to take out a second Qeynosian Mortgage?

Borias

06-21-2007, 12:11 PM

Heck, let all classes be on all sides, and give Exiles full city stuff and pvp gear. You freepies can have your Slave-adins, or call them brainwashed or something. As long as you don't let exiles take titles off each other, there will always be guilds in both cities.

Bauer

06-21-2007, 01:05 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is PvP equity? Awesome! How much have i built up so far? Do i have enough to take out a second Qeynosian Mortgage?</blockquote> Please tell me you're not trying to get a loan with livestock collateral!

Vilesummon

06-21-2007, 03:32 PM

Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Heck, let all classes be on all sides, and give Exiles full city stuff and pvp gear. You freepies can have your Slave-adins, or call them brainwashed or something. As long as you don't let exiles take titles off each other, there will always be guilds in both cities.</blockquote>If the day comes that all classes were available to both alignments, then I do think they would have to look at pvp gear for exiles...but it would have to be twice the cost since you guys have twice the targets. As I said before, though, eof raid set gear can pretty much offset the loss of access to pvp gear.

Vilesummon

06-21-2007, 03:33 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is PvP equity? Awesome! How much have i built up so far? Do i have enough to take out a second Qeynosian Mortgage?</blockquote>When we ran your credit report, you fail to qualify for the second morgage...sorry.

Vilesummon

06-21-2007, 03:36 PM

Mordumor@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Hrmm. As the raid general of Overlords, I say No "Goodies" welcome. What we do welcome, is the challenge of clearing raid zones with what the developers intended, and the fact is we do. We take pride in our accomplishments as a city faction guild and plan to be the first to clear all EoF. Therefore, we only recruit those that have the same "Can Do" attitude.Chel Drek cleared. Clock work cleared.Freethinkers, last room. Yes Treloth is a [I cannot control my vocabulary], but 21% more and the zone will be cleared in the same night.Inner Sanctum, last room. All cleared except Mayong (may need further progression in emerald halls).Emerald Halls, we will be on the 2nd floor next raid since they nerfed the rumbler.Now contested is a different story, and raid pvp can be out of balance, but you counter this with dedication, skill and numbers. When freeport decides to take what is hers, it will be done. This is very soon in our eyes. To those of you who try to be the very best your class offers, we are interested.</blockquote>Mord, I am not saying that it can't be done. As a Grey Wolves member, I have seen us push further and further in zones like Mistmoore inner sanctum and such. We keep working it as it stands now too, but I do think the option should exist for a guild to permit all classes if they so choose. I know some guilds would stay single aligned and that would be cool, but it really would make some interesting PVP battles if all 3 factions had all classes...IF they so choose.

Eybietie

06-21-2007, 03:53 PM

Vilesummon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>...and I also believe that you can make nice story lines to explain how an assassin can be good...the only tough sale might be a PALLY being evil. </blockquote>lucan d´lere is a paldin btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vilesummon

06-21-2007, 04:21 PM

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>...and I also believe that you can make nice story lines to explain how an assassin can be good...the only tough sale might be a PALLY being evil. </blockquote>lucan d´lere is a paldin btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>I guess maybe I should read some of the storylines that already exist before proposing new ones, eh? LOL. Thanks for the info, though, I may need to do some history searching to fill in some of the blanks now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Vlahkmaak

06-21-2007, 06:33 PM

"Good" Kings and Queens always had a competent assassin in their hire to take out that shaddy baron or threat to the throne. Aside from necromancers, paladins, and shadowknights I see no reason why any other class could not betray to good/evil alignment. I'd love to bring my ranger to FP with the rest of my mains and buddies. I have no interest in playing an assasin though: I enjoy the the sniper like play style of the ranger. Of course, I won't be able to tell my current guildies that death is stalking them anymore right before I kill their lowbie on my ranger. Heck, if you can't kill your friends who can you kill. This might even end the entire current nerf debate and would probally be a heck of alot easier to implement.After this they just need to change combat hit probability to an exponenetial form - walked my 70 guard, 9k hp self buffed (and not in the best of gear yet but decent 6k poison/disease resists) through a group of 6-7 30 warlocks and wizards in EL omw to spire - will never make that mistake again. The thought that someone so low below my level that can hit so hard, and drop all those hp so fast, was utterly ridiculous. For the non math majors: the higher the level toon you are attacking the harder it is to hit and do damage, likewise, the lower level toon you are attacking the easier it is to hit and do full damage: In my sad case above, M2 Flay, with 5 aa's into it, should have hit the 30 for a heck of alot more than 1k hp. I shoulda smeared him all over EL and my other big hits shoulda done the same. Sad, sad, sad: I'd like to see open pvp like it was in Sinking Sands when I was coming up, taking the abuse expecting to one day have my revenge, only to have Sony turn it off and now allow greys to enmasse and follow solo 70 harvesters around like a pack of feral dogs just waiting for that pick axe to hit the ore....

Vilesummon

06-21-2007, 08:57 PM

<cite>Plaguemeister wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Good" Kings and Queens always had a competent assassin in their hire to take out that shaddy baron or threat to the throne. Aside from necromancers, paladins, and shadowknights I see no reason why any other class could not betray to good/evil alignment. I'd love to bring my ranger to FP with the rest of my mains and buddies. I have no interest in playing an assasin though: I enjoy the the sniper like play style of the ranger. Of course, I won't be able to tell my current guildies that death is stalking them anymore right before I kill their lowbie on my ranger. Heck, if you can't kill your friends who can you kill. This might even end the entire current nerf debate and would probally be a heck of alot easier to implement.After this they just need to change combat hit probability to an exponenetial form - walked my 70 guard, 9k hp self buffed (and not in the best of gear yet but decent 6k poison/disease resists) through a group of 6-7 30 warlocks and wizards in EL omw to spire - will never make that mistake again. The thought that someone so low below my level that can hit so hard, and drop all those hp so fast, was utterly ridiculous. For the non math majors: the higher the level toon you are attacking the harder it is to hit and do damage, likewise, the lower level toon you are attacking the easier it is to hit and do full damage: In my sad case above, M2 Flay, with 5 aa's into it, should have hit the 30 for a heck of alot more than 1k hp. I shoulda smeared him all over EL and my other big hits shoulda done the same. Sad, sad, sad: I'd like to see open pvp like it was in Sinking Sands when I was coming up, taking the abuse expecting to one day have my revenge, only to have Sony turn it off and now allow greys to enmasse and follow solo 70 harvesters around like a pack of feral dogs just waiting for that pick axe to hit the ore....</blockquote>Exactly my point, anyone that studies history knows that people have always had assassins on either side. As you said, it may at least stem some of the this class has way more than that class debate. As for the other part about higher levels...there is a great thread about grays attacking reds that deals with this very subject. Since they have made warlocks neutral and they specialize in poison and disease type attacks, you can't use that as the end all of what makes a class good or evil...and as for necros; I don't think they have to be evil per say. Sure they are darker than a conj, but in a fantasy realm there have usually been ways for either alignment to be dark without being evil. I grew up in the D and D days of old....you know where there were the 9 alignments: LG, LN, LE, NG,N, NE, CG,CN, and CE (just pure evil non-law abiding [Removed for Content])...I think SOE does confine the characters too much by making them either good or evil...without many shades of gray. The classes that are evil (or good) should have the starting city to reflect the origins, but you should be able to make your way to the other side if you so choose...and it should come without losing your masters unless you change your class...say conj to necro. Just a thought though...

Daemondred

06-22-2007, 12:29 AM

Vilesummon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Mordumor@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Hrmm. As the raid general of Overlords, I say No "Goodies" welcome. What we do welcome, is the challenge of clearing raid zones with what the developers intended, and the fact is we do. We take pride in our accomplishments as a city faction guild and plan to be the first to clear all EoF. Therefore, we only recruit those that have the same "Can Do" attitude.Chel Drek cleared. Clock work cleared.Freethinkers, last room. Yes Treloth is a [I cannot control my vocabulary], but 21% more and the zone will be cleared in the same night.Inner Sanctum, last room. All cleared except Mayong (may need further progression in emerald halls).Emerald Halls, we will be on the 2nd floor next raid since they nerfed the rumbler.Now contested is a different story, and raid pvp can be out of balance, but you counter this with dedication, skill and numbers. When freeport decides to take what is hers, it will be done. This is very soon in our eyes. To those of you who try to be the very best your class offers, we are interested.</blockquote>Mord, I am not saying that it can't be done. As a Grey Wolves member, I have seen us push further and further in zones like Mistmoore inner sanctum and such. We keep working it as it stands now too, but I do think the option should exist for a guild to permit all classes if they so choose. I know some guilds would stay single aligned and that would be cool, but it really would make some interesting PVP battles if all 3 factions had all classes...IF they so choose. </blockquote>We can argue Devoloper intention all day long but.PvP in eq2 was an afterthought. the game was originally released as a PVE game. on PVE servers guilds can recruit from both FP and Q. and Raid with all classes. there lies the Devolopers original Intent. on the PvP side of the house as we can all see they are still working it out. They will get there, I expect to see alot more changes between now and ROK. With Warhammer Online and Age of Conan on the horizon, both PvP centric games, EQ2 has to get things looking better.Personally I would love to see some pvp battles where all factions could utilize all classes if they so chose.

Vilesummon

06-22-2007, 09:23 AM

<cite>Daemondred wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Mordumor@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Hrmm. As the raid general of Overlords, I say No "Goodies" welcome. What we do welcome, is the challenge of clearing raid zones with what the developers intended, and the fact is we do. We take pride in our accomplishments as a city faction guild and plan to be the first to clear all EoF. Therefore, we only recruit those that have the same "Can Do" attitude.Chel Drek cleared. Clock work cleared.Freethinkers, last room. Yes Treloth is a [I cannot control my vocabulary], but 21% more and the zone will be cleared in the same night.Inner Sanctum, last room. All cleared except Mayong (may need further progression in emerald halls).Emerald Halls, we will be on the 2nd floor next raid since they nerfed the rumbler.Now contested is a different story, and raid pvp can be out of balance, but you counter this with dedication, skill and numbers. When freeport decides to take what is hers, it will be done. This is very soon in our eyes. To those of you who try to be the very best your class offers, we are interested.</blockquote>Mord, I am not saying that it can't be done. As a Grey Wolves member, I have seen us push further and further in zones like Mistmoore inner sanctum and such. We keep working it as it stands now too, but I do think the option should exist for a guild to permit all classes if they so choose. I know some guilds would stay single aligned and that would be cool, but it really would make some interesting PVP battles if all 3 factions had all classes...IF they so choose. </blockquote>We can argue Devoloper intention all day long but.PvP in eq2 was an afterthought. the game was originally released as a PVE game. on PVE servers guilds can recruit from both FP and Q. and Raid with all classes. there lies the Devolopers original Intent. on the PvP side of the house as we can all see they are still working it out. They will get there, I expect to see alot more changes between now and ROK. With Warhammer Online and Age of Conan on the horizon, both PvP centric games, EQ2 has to get things looking better.Personally I would love to see some pvp battles where all factions could utilize all classes if they so chose.</blockquote>We all know that the PVP was an afterthought, and I think a lot of people do expect SOE to make some changes along the way, including RoK, but as you said, there are other games on the horizon and if some changes are not made in the near future, the game may lose more players. It isn't that SOE doesn't make attempts to fix some of the PVP issues, but there are some simple things that need to be looked at, such as the single alignment classes that only can be gained by exiling. That was the point, a more level playing field. You were absolutely right in pointing out the original intent being raid zones with all classes. I originally didn't know if I would like PVP much and was guild leader of a good sized guild on PVE, but I tried it and got hooked. That being said, there are clearly some things that can be done to make the mechanics of it all work a little more evenly...and as always, the ultimate choice would be the individual guilds to allow other classes in or not. If the officers and leaders of a guild thinks an assassin represents pure evil...they don't have to let them in. It is a simple mechanic to fix really...and it just seems to make sense IMO.

Bozidar

06-22-2007, 10:26 AM

I leveled my Berserker last night, got him a few AA. Do i have enough equity yet to qualify for that loan? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sehk

06-22-2007, 11:00 AM

Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>lucan d´lere is a paldin btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Lucan D'Lere was a paladin a long, long time ago. His leadership of the Freeport Militia and murder of fellow key Paladins put somewhat of a damper on his holy career. Not to mention his death and subsequent salvation, assuming one can call a deal with Innoruuk involving one's soul 'salvation'. Lucan's current class is not exactly known, though Shadow Knight might be an obvious assumption. Lucan is in fact undead, a lich more precisely due to the complications over his soul's ownership, and some have speculated that his 'class', if you will, might be best described as: Avatar of Innoruuk. Lore on the PvP forums... more proof that we PvPers truly traverse the cutting edge of insanity. And yes, Freeportian paladins would be a very hard sell, but I can see it being done via splinter groups of zealots under say, Rallos. The fact is, if you take a look at what's been done to the lore between EQ1 and EQ2, we could introduce Freeportian fluffy huggy bears as a class, and somehow justify it.

Vilesummon

06-22-2007, 02:13 PM

<cite>Sehk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadexxx@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>lucan d´lere is a paldin btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Lucan D'Lere was a paladin a long, long time ago. His leadership of the Freeport Militia and murder of fellow key Paladins put somewhat of a damper on his holy career. Not to mention his death and subsequent salvation, assuming one can call a deal with Innoruuk involving one's soul 'salvation'. Lucan's current class is not exactly known, though Shadow Knight might be an obvious assumption. Lucan is in fact undead, a lich more precisely due to the complications over his soul's ownership, and some have speculated that his 'class', if you will, might be best described as: Avatar of Innoruuk. Lore on the PvP forums... more proof that we PvPers truly traverse the cutting edge of insanity. And yes, Freeportian paladins would be a very hard sell, but I can see it being done via splinter groups of zealots under say, Rallos. The fact is, if you take a look at what's been done to the lore between EQ1 and EQ2, we could introduce Freeportian fluffy huggy bears as a class, and somehow justify it. </blockquote>Think they are part of the '08 expansion, but not sure. Thanks for the history of Lucan though, it is kind of fascinating. I never played EQ1 and just kinda jumped into EQ2, without much thought about stories of the people, places, and things.

Vlahkmaak

12-03-2007, 03:30 PM

Wow - I want to be a lvl 80 fluffy huggy bear with summon beds CA.