What Brawlers need to be "fixed".

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Okay, so there's been a lot of talk about how we need to be fixed, but no consolidated thread on what fixes could be done to make the class a contender alongside the other tanks. This isn't about fixing the AA's, so I'm going to leave those things alone for now (we have a thread about fixing the AA's already). Here's what I feel are the things that simply just aren't working for us Brawlers: 1. Our Taunt Proc. It has two issues, it requires landing the hit and can only hit the targets we attack. So in two ways it's inferior to our Warrior brethren. Crusaders have their own AE control (deathmarch, amends on a warlock, ae AA's etc). My suggestion here would be to have an additional line added to the current version: - On a successful deflection or parry, increase threat to the attacker by X. Yes, it requires skill still, however it solves the issue of proc'ing when multiple targets are attacking us. Since we keep our proc on attack as well, I think this would start to shore up the gap we currently have. Deflection and Parry may not happen all the time, but I'm thinking in terms of combining it with the following change... 2. Deflection needs to be uncontested for it's full amount. This means removing the portion found on our Defensive and Mixed stances, and instead make the full Deflection % no longer contested by quality of Mob (just level). This will do two things... It will give us the much needed avoidance against Epics that would make up for our reduced mitigation. Yes, it's 360 degrees vs the frontal arc of a Tower Shield, however Plate tanks have higher mitigation that acts 360 degrees, so this only makes things fair for Brawlers. It will mesh well with the above change where our proc goes off against a successful Deflection. Meaning we will KEEP our ability to proc hate even though we face Epic targets (like Plate tanks do). My current Deflection is 35% in defensive stance. With effort, I could see some folks bringing it up to just over 40%. No it doesn't mean we won't be affected by two big hits in a row... but it does mean it won't happen nearly as often as it does currently. And if they make the offtank changes I proposed in the Combat Forums, we'll be great for passing along avoidance to the MT as well. 3. Fix unarmed combat to be treated like a weapon. Right now we are half-[Removed for Content]. We have unarmed boosted with level, but it's slow.. low damage.. and short of AA's, useless. I can understand the concept of being able to attack at least a little if your weapons are destroyed or taken away... but when does that happen? If they truly fix our AA's, then what happens to unarmed combat? Make our unarmed combat into a store-bought dual wield weapon in each hand instead of a single two handed weapon. Equipping a weapon in one hand just replaces that hand's unarmed attack.. meaning putting one dual wield in there will allow you to offhand attack unarmed still. Then, remove the damage and speed (the DR) of handwraps and knuckles. Instead, make them add a range of damage, or a flat bonus to damage, per attack. You will still attack with your unarmed base, but add on the damage from the handwraps and knuckles, increasing your "DR" to the level of Legendary and Fabled weapons. Since handwraps and knuckles can give stats and be adorned, you've solved that issue as well. This means we keep the flavour of unarmed attacks, but no longer end up being incompatible with the weapon system, adornments,  or AA's. An example of what I mean: Currently a lvl 60 store bought Horned Leather Fist Wraps gives 12-35 damage at 1.6 second delay. A comparative lvl 60 Handcrafted dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 13-39 damage. A comparative lvl 62 Mastercrafted dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 17-52 damage. A comparative lvl 65 Legendary dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 19-56 damage. A comparative lvl 68 Fabled dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 24-73 damage. Removing the base amount, each one gives an extra: Handcrafted 60: +1-4 damage, or an avg of +2 Mastercrafted 62: +5-17 damage, or an avg of +11 Legendary 65: +7-21 damage, or an avg of +14 Fabled 68: +12-38 damage, or an avg of +25 These values would be applied to the lvl 60 version of the unarmed, even if you level higher. Higher level and lower level weapons would apply to their specific tier, so there doesn't have to be some crazy formula acting in the background. For example.. Closing Time would give it's extra damage based on the lvl 70 unarmed weapon, not the lvl 60 one... since it can only be used lvl 70 and above. I think with these changes we could become more viable and keep our flavour.

[Novusod]

Brawlers will never be the raid MT so points 1 and 2 are moot. Bruisers are not a top end dps class either because that is not what the class is about. If anything bruisers should do less dps. Is what bruisers need is raid utility in the form of taking on the role of the group protector. The easiest way to do this would be to make stone deaf a group (AE) buff. This would really help the healers and let them concentrate on healing the MT rather than healing the group. It would make bruisers a nice to have class on raids rather than a who cares if we have one or not class.

[Rezzonico]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Okay, so there's been a lot of talk about how we need to be fixed, but no consolidated thread on what fixes could be done to make the class a contender alongside the other tanks. This isn't about fixing the AA's, so I'm going to leave those things alone for now (we have a thread about fixing the AA's already). Here's what I feel are the things that simply just aren't working for us Brawlers: 1. Our Taunt Proc. It has two issues, it requires landing the hit and can only hit the targets we attack. So in two ways it's inferior to our Warrior brethren. Crusaders have their own AE control (deathmarch, amends on a warlock, ae AA's etc). My suggestion here would be to have an additional line added to the current version: - On a successful deflection or parry, increase threat to the attacker by X. Yes, it requires skill still, however it solves the issue of proc'ing when multiple targets are attacking us. Since we keep our proc on attack as well, I think this would start to shore up the gap we currently have. Deflection and Parry may not happen all the time, but I'm thinking in terms of combining it with the following change... 2. Deflection needs to be uncontested for it's full amount. This means removing the portion found on our Defensive and Mixed stances, and instead make the full Deflection % no longer contested by quality of Mob (just level). This will do two things... It will give us the much needed avoidance against Epics that would make up for our reduced mitigation. Yes, it's 360 degrees vs the frontal arc of a Tower Shield, however Plate tanks have higher mitigation that acts 360 degrees, so this only makes things fair for Brawlers. It will mesh well with the above change where our proc goes off against a successful Deflection. Meaning we will KEEP our ability to proc hate even though we face Epic targets (like Plate tanks do). My current Deflection is 35% in defensive stance. With effort, I could see some folks bringing it up to just over 40%. No it doesn't mean we won't be affected by two big hits in a row... but it does mean it won't happen nearly as often as it does currently. And if they make the offtank changes I proposed in the Combat Forums, we'll be great for passing along avoidance to the MT as well. 3. Fix unarmed combat to be treated like a weapon. Right now we are half-[Removed for Content]. We have unarmed boosted with level, but it's slow.. low damage.. and short of AA's, useless. I can understand the concept of being able to attack at least a little if your weapons are destroyed or taken away... but when does that happen? If they truly fix our AA's, then what happens to unarmed combat? Make our unarmed combat into a store-bought dual wield weapon in each hand instead of a single two handed weapon. Equipping a weapon in one hand just replaces that hand's unarmed attack.. meaning putting one dual wield in there will allow you to offhand attack unarmed still. Then, remove the damage and speed (the DR) of handwraps and knuckles. Instead, make them add a range of damage, or a flat bonus to damage, per attack. You will still attack with your unarmed base, but add on the damage from the handwraps and knuckles, increasing your "DR" to the level of Legendary and Fabled weapons. Since handwraps and knuckles can give stats and be adorned, you've solved that issue as well. This means we keep the flavour of unarmed attacks, but no longer end up being incompatible with the weapon system, adornments,  or AA's. An example of what I mean: Currently a lvl 60 store bought Horned Leather Fist Wraps gives 12-35 damage at 1.6 second delay. A comparative lvl 60 Handcrafted dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 13-39 damage. A comparative lvl 62 Mastercrafted dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 17-52 damage. A comparative lvl 65 Legendary dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 19-56 damage. A comparative lvl 68 Fabled dual wield weapon that has a 1.6s delay has 24-73 damage. Removing the base amount, each one gives an extra: Handcrafted 60: +1-4 damage, or an avg of +2 Mastercrafted 62: +5-17 damage, or an avg of +11 Legendary 65: +7-21 damage, or an avg of +14 Fabled 68: +12-38 damage, or an avg of +25 These values would be applied to the lvl 60 version of the unarmed, even if you level higher. Higher level and lower level weapons would apply to their specific tier, so there doesn't have to be some crazy formula acting in the background. For example.. Closing Time would give it's extra damage based on the lvl 70 unarmed weapon, not the lvl 60 one... since it can only be used lvl 70 and above. I think with these changes we could become more viable and keep our flavour. </blockquote><p>I agree in most you say....but you already know this will happens so far xD</p><p>Anyway..</p><p> i suggest  these improvements: </p><p>AA:</p><p>-On str line the 3  abilty increase dps from 20 to 30, so unarmed fight will be slightly better.</p><p>-Eagle shriek increase some more Mitigation...about 400 mit more.</p><p>- Keep Bad Karma on Chi, but increase the duration to 40 seconds on positive and negative effect. Reduce slightly the bad karma effects. Improve the reuse speed the devs said. </p><p>CA:</p><p>-Slap around should interrupts targets in area</p><p>-Sonic Fist works also in close combat.</p><p>-Offensive Stance and Middle stance i suggest to add a Proc over time. As the bruiser after it throw all CA have few seconds autoattack fighting. So i suggest a very low proc damage, just to continue attacking the target.</p><p> Example: Blistering fist  1.8 times per minutes 500 - 600, inflict 60 heat damage on target every 4 seconds for 12 seconds.</p><p>But in this case, adding a thing like this, i will decrease the proc damage slightly off course <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (example: from 500-600 to 500-550, 450-500). Because i don't think it's important how how hard you can hit, but how much you can hit over time.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers will never be the raid MT so points 1 and 2 are moot. Bruisers are not a top end dps class either because that is not what the class is about. If anything bruisers should do less dps. Is what bruisers need is raid utility in the form of taking on the role of the group protector. The easiest way to do this would be to make stone deaf a group (AE) buff. This would really help the healers and let them concentrate on healing the MT rather than healing the group. It would make bruisers a nice to have class on raids rather than a who cares if we have one or not class. </blockquote> You are a defeatist. Explain to me your reasoning why we SHOULDN'T be capable of MT. I've already tanked many easy Epic fights, and I'm only half Legendary, half Fabled equipped. Maybe once you get your Bruiser to 70 and get some decent gear you can see what kind of Tanking we are capable of. And no where did I talk about DPS. I'm talking about fixing the flavor issues of unarmed combat. In the end, it would neither decrease, nor increase our DPS... it would fix it so unarmed would be a useable, viable aspect of the class instead of this half baked mechanic we have now. Also, do I hear you right? Reduce Bruiser DPS when guardians spec'd for DPS are currently getting higher parses? <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Unless you are advocating a drop in DPS for the rest of the fighters as well... As I've already mentioned, I have already posted a <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367482" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">utility fix post</a> for all Fighters. This isn't about giving Bruisers utility in raids. All fighters need their non-MT utility raised so we have more "want" of fighters on raids. This post is about giving Brawlers the ability to do what they should be able to... become a more equal Tank. Honestly.. would the sky fall if Brawlers could suddenly be a viable MT? In the end, I don't take full credit for these ideas. Deflection being fully uncontested was mentioned by numerous Monks and Bruisers back when they were making shields uncontested. Our taunt proc'ing off a deflection has been mentioned many times over the past couple years. These aren't brand new ideas here, but together they would do wonders for our class.

[ganjookie]

same crap different thread <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[tt66]

Kithian@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>same crap different thread <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Oh come on. Nothing like a rousing game of "should brawlers MT epics?" to make for a positive and constructive thread, chock-full of useful insight and imaginative suggestions. For what it's worth, I'm firmly on the "we need raid utility, coz we're not gonna be MT or proper dps any time soon" wagon. Personally, I'd really like to see stone deaf be an AE buff. (Wouldn't mind seeing Retribution of Stone being a single-target buff either, just so it might be worth taking, but I'm not holding my breath.)

[Novusod]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote> You are a defeatist. Explain to me your reasoning why we SHOULDN'T be capable of MT. <span style="color: #cc0000">The reasoning is simple. There are 24 total classes in EQ2 and 6 of those are fighter classes but there can only be one MT on a standard x4 raid. Every class ultimately should bring something unique to a raid that makes that class needed in raids. To force six classes to fight over one slot is wrong because it produces 5 losers for every winner. Bruisers should not be in competition for that slot but should bring their own unique utility to a raid so a bruiser is wanted in every single raiding guild.</span> I've already tanked many easy Epic fights, and I'm only half Legendary, half Fabled equipped. Maybe once you get your Bruiser to 70 and get some decent gear you can see what kind of Tanking we are capable of. <span style="color: #cc0000">You should be happy with whatever content you can tank though I would say the stuff you have been tanking has more to do with your healers then anything you did. Have you ever tried to heal a bruiser? Well I can tell you it is a huge PIA. </span> And no where did I talk about DPS. I'm talking about fixing the flavor issues of unarmed combat. In the end, it would neither decrease, nor increase our DPS... it would fix it so unarmed would be a useable, viable aspect of the class instead of this half baked mechanic we have now. <span style="color: #cc0000">Well if your suggestion will not affect dps then what you are talking about here is entirely subjective.</span> Also, do I hear you right? Reduce Bruiser DPS when guardians spec'd for DPS are currently getting higher parses? <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Unless you are advocating a drop in DPS for the rest of the fighters as well... <span style="color: #cc0000">Yes, you heard me right because it is about ballance. Firstly you can't propose a buff without some type of draw back somewhere. Secondly, I don't think bruisers should be competing for DPS slots in a raid for the same reason they should not be competing for the main tank slot because it produces more losers than winners when too many classes overlap for the same slots. As for guardian DPS they have a lot of competition from the other plate tanks namely high DPS zerkers. The DPS plate tanks fill the role of emergency tank if the MT goes down.</span> As I've already mentioned, I have already posted a <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367482" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">utility fix post</a> for all Fighters. This isn't about giving Bruisers utility in raids. All fighters need their non-MT utility raised so we have more "want" of fighters on raids. This post is about giving Brawlers the ability to do what they should be able to... become a more equal Tank. <span style="color: #cc0000">I think brawlers need to have utility that is above and beyond what the plate tanks have for the class to be viable in raids. Brawlers are not equal tanks and cannot be equal to the plate tanks. Making all the tank classes more or less the same would make things worse when it comes to competition for that single main tank slot.</span> Honestly.. would the sky fall if Brawlers could suddenly be a viable MT? <span style="color: #cc0000">Actually if you have not noticed the sky is already falling over the entire game. This issue is deeper than what simply affects bruisers. I have seen several guilds close up shop recently because of declining membership while at the same time there are all these other players who want to join guilds and raid but can't because they play a surpluss class that has no defining role. Server populations have far too many tanks, not enough healers, and never enough bards. If you listen to what the raiding community wants it would be something that takes the presure off the healers and/or lessens the need to dual box a bard that nobody wants to play anymore. The end result of all this is terrible raiding, canceled subscriptions, and eventually if things continue this way then no more EQ2.</span> In the end, I don't take full credit for these ideas. Deflection being fully uncontested was mentioned by numerous Monks and Bruisers back when they were making shields uncontested. Our taunt proc'ing off a deflection has been mentioned many times over the past couple years. These aren't brand new ideas here, but together they would do wonders for our class. <span style="color: #cc0000">Well then maybe it is time to think of some new ideas and stop rehashing old ones that don't solve the core problem of six classes competing over one slot in a raid. Bruisers along with all classes in general need a defining role in a raid. </span> </blockquote>

[Bobbette]

Novusod, you've drilled down to the core issue in this game.  It's a huge design discrepancy between what's required for heroic content and what's required for raiding content. I've been talking about this issue for a long time actually. A heroic group has generally required -- 1 tank, 1 healer, and 4 dps classes.  Support classes (and/or a 2nd healer) generally haven't been required until the introduction of some "1 group raid" instances which began with Nizara and have continued with zones like Unrest and Castle Mistmoore.  Still, most of those are level 70 zones so 1-69 still pretty much holds to the above group design. Now put 4 groups together into a raid -- that's 4 tanks, 4 healers, and 16 dps with little to no support classes.  Oops, wait a minute, that's definitely not enough healers, we're missing support classes and likely we have too many of the wrong kinds of tanks. It starts getting even more unbalanced as time goes on because people start rolling alts to fill in the missing healers and support classes for raiding ... but no one is rolling tanks and you have 4 healers competing for a group that only really needs one, begging for tanks in the level chats, and who really needs to add a bard/chanter to a group that has 3 healers, a rogue tanking and what you really need is some dps.  People get frustrated and quit ... can't play their original (and likely favorite) character cuz it's a surpluss and are struggling to level up a support/healer so it's a grind not fun. I don't think it was quite as noticeable until t7 when raiding really took off.  Quest lines and HQs (Claymore, Wurmslayer) required raiding to progress, quite a number of long raiding instances were released.  KoS changed alot of people's focus (it did mine).  Plus at the end game, at 70, what else is there to do to progress? to tackle new challenges?  You've done all the instances umpteen times so people turn to raiding. We've ended up with dps'ing support classes, tanking scouts, fighters with no clear roles in raids besides MT, and melee'ing healers so that people can keep leveling characters through the heroic content with somewhat viable groups.  All to keep up with the imbalance that the above has been creating in the game since launch. I'm not sure what the solution is though.

[gelinx]

I don't see why we need to be made into MT's.  In the perfect raid setup with all 24 classes, and out of all the fighters, Guardians are the ones made for MT'ing.  The tools that the Guardian is given (Tower of Stone, Stone Sphere, Reinforcements, etc.) are made for being able to recover from a dire situation.  We have nothing except Rescue, which all fighters have.  My role on a raid is  basically that of off tank, dps when not tanking, intercede when not tanking (went down intercede line), puller, and minesweeper (meh).  I also mastered the are of drag if lifeburning necro, wizzy, or warlock manage to peel off of MT, giving the MT (Guardian) to either plant, use reinforcements, or use rescue.  I've also used it to buy the MT time to get healed if he manages to spike into red. I understand that most may be discontent with the way we are now when it comes to raids.  I've heard about some raiding guilds that have no brawler at all.  I don't understand why.  I believe that its not good to have more than one of any class for a raid, each class brings its own thing to the table.  Anyways, I blame Moorgard.  It's his fault for saying that Avoidance is on par with Mitigation, however, avoidance has been a lot better since they actually made a portion of it uncontested. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ganeden]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers will never be the raid MT so points 1 and 2 are moot. Bruisers are not a top end dps class either because that is not what the class is about. If anything bruisers should do less dps. Is what bruisers need is raid utility in the form of taking on the role of the group protector. The easiest way to do this would be to make stone deaf a group (AE) buff. This would really help the healers and let them concentrate on healing the MT rather than healing the group. It would make bruisers a nice to have class on raids rather than a who cares if we have one or not class. </blockquote><p> First of all you don't even have a brawler according to your sig, why are you trolling these forums? If you don't have one you have no idea what's important to this class. Do you see me over on the troubador forums trying to shoot down all their possible fixes??? </p><p>You're right that brawlers won't be MTs. We're beat by every other fighter class and that's fine, when I created the charecter that's what I expected. We're supposed to have the highest DPS of all fighter classes and we dont. Two classes can beat us consistantly and the other ones come very close to out dps to where we're just barely ahead. So should brawlers be the worst tanks and middle of the road dps? No, we should be the worst tanks and be the best fighter DPS. We need a DPS boost or pretty much all other fighter classes need a nerf.</p><p>If we don't get a DPS boost then we need SERIOUS utility, not make our 20second close mind (and 3min recast) group usable, this isn't going to make ANY raid leader think, ohh we need a bruiser on this raid. Beyond a new spell line I don't see anything the devs can do with our current CAs so I have to hope for an increase in DPS.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Novusod, Like I said in my post, what I'm suggesting is that ALL fighter be capable of tanking raids, as well as ALL fighters bringing utility to raids when not MT. What I've already proposed (see the link) is that we fix "<span style="color: #cc0000">the core problem of six classes competing over one slot in a raid.</span>" by making all Fighters, even Guardians and Zerkers, capable of providing utility in the form of debuffs, aggro control, and tank protection. With that fixed.. with a need being there for multiple fighters in a raid, I propose the above changes for Brawlers so that we may become capable raid MT's. Tricks like Tower of Stone and such will always make it so one tank might be slightly better, or preferred for some or even all raids. However, that doesn't mean other tanks should be completely inadequate at being MT. Quite simply, I would like to see that a guild could not have to call a raid because their Guardian and/or Zerker couldn't make it. 6 Fighters out there... we should have 6 people capable of having a raid happen. And with Fighters being able to provide something ELSE, other than Tanking, for a raid, you won't have to worry about 6 classes competeing against 1 position in a raid. Hopefully it will be more like 6 classes competing for roughly 5-6 positions in the raid (which is about the same as every other archetype).