Check out the Lucanic Kama from the SoD reward for monks. Fresh from Test.

[Cusashorn]

<p>And this is just the legendary version. The upgraded fabled version comes from the New Tunaria raid zone.</p><p>I'm just glad this time around they dont have some ****y Proc.</p><p><img src="http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h109/kethaera/EQ2_000076.jpg" border="0"></p>

[PaganSaint]

This and then the upgrade for the raiders that can complete the New Tunarian Throne raid instance is hands down the best dual wield available. Great delay, great damage range, double attack and decent stats. Sign me up. Even though that Gladius is the best tanking weapon in the game, but hey, I'll take this kama any day for my brawler.

[Zooce]

Why does it say 'one hand' rather than 'dual wield'?

[Timaarit]

Umm.. You call that great damage range??? Why dont you take a look at the Lucanic Gladius that scouts and other fighters can use. Not so good spread anymore. Then look at the upgraded Soulfire stuff on test forums. When the Kama's damage is multiplied by 1,33 you get 84,3 while the gladius has 87,8. Also Kamas damage is 40-119 (multiplier is 3) while gladius is 39-224 (multiplier is 5,7). Note that the different delay does not effect this difference. Again a confirmation to the fact that brawlers get the shaft whenever possible, we get worse DR items with far worse damage spreads. But because the delay is 2,5s, it fits my other main weapon so I will be using the fabled one if/when I get it (wont be using the legendary one, the 1H tag means it has dr of 52,4 when specced as dualwield).

[PaganSaint]

Actually I've seen both linked on test and even the legendary at a, iirc, ~57 rating with a 2.5 delay will be taking the spot of marr's fist for almost everyone who completes this quest and has a fist of bashing. The fabled is easily one of the top three DWs available for a brawler.

[Timaarit]

If the legendary really is dr57, then it might replace my off-hand weapon. I havent used Marr's fist ever since I got my 2nd non-KoS fabled 2,5s delay weapon. As for why it might, is because currently the damage spread on both my weapons is with 5+ multiplier and the legendary Kama has only 3. But since I will get the weapon anyway, I might just as well try it. But I really wish they would fix the item and change the spread to the same as the gladius has. Edited a typo...

[Timaarit]

Also look at the damage spread on scout/warrior dualwield sabre. 42-239 compared to Kamas 44-131. And the sabre even has higher dr. There is a reason why I get depressed whenever SOE presents new content.

[PaganSaint]

5% double attack is a bigger boost than ~10% more damage per attack to me. But I see what you mean, if the spread was maybe 10 damage higher on the top end it would make a world of difference for the legendary version. As for the fabled, I don't really see how it can be changed upward without surpassing all instance drop and even contested drop dual wields. EDIT: grammatical context.

[Timaarit]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>5% double attack is a bigger boost than ~10% more damage per attack for me. But I see what you mean, if the spread was maybe 10 damage higher on the top end it would make a world of difference for the legendary version. As for the fabled, I don't really see how it can be changed upward without surpassing all instance drop and even contested drop dual wields. </blockquote>5% DA =  5% more autoattack dps. 10% more damage per autoattack hit = 10% more autoattack DPS. As for the fabled, why the hell would it matter with brawlers since it clearly doesn't matter with warriors and scouts? Ah yes, the instance and contested scout/warrior drops are superior already so even in its current form, the superior SoD reward for them does not surpass the old ones. So they could fix that by making the brawler drops actually equally good.

[PaganSaint]

Its actually about an 8-9.5% increase depending upon crit chance I have found. And the brawler weapon at a rating of I think it was 62 for Fabled is comparable to any Scout DW excepting bisected or contested loot, which it should not be. As for it being comparable to the scout or tank weapon rewards from the quest, I think it is, and it pairs well with other brawler weapons which is the reason I think it was made a 2.5s delay instead of a 3.0s or even 4.0s delay weapon like a scout or tank weapon.

[Timaarit]

So you see nothing wrong in the equation where if the brawler weapon would be made as good as the scout weapon, it would be better than the dropped fabled brawlers ones but still inferior to the dropped scout ones? Basically with the posts you are saying that brawler weapons should stay worse than scout/warrior weapons. Note that with the incoming changes, this is not about DW stats but 1H stats. And scouts can get better drops from instances than what their SoD reward is.

[PaganSaint]

The problem I have in general with brawler weapons is that there are no dual wields with a 3.0s+ delay, with the quest reward specifically and comparatively to what is available I have no problem with the kama. I would much prefer the Stone of Tranquility, Star Sharpened Cestus and Thorn Wrapped Bindings were all scaled properly to a 3.0 to 3.5 second delay than the <b><i>quest reward</i></b> from such a non involved, time sink only, quest be upgraded.

[Timaarit]

Well then I recommend you do /feedback to get those upgraded instead of doing your best to prevent these weapons to be upgraded to be on par with the other rewards. Make no mistake, the brawler weapon is the worst of those meant for fighters and scouts. But then that is nothing new. Like you said, improving the brawler weapon to be on par would make them better than the instanced ones. But you dont realize that at the same time it means that the rest of the SoD fighter weapon rewards then are already better than what a brawler can get from intances or contested.

[PaganSaint]

Well I am not too sure of that with the incoming changes. This reward, plus the Grim Brimstone Hammer, which we will be able to use after LU 37, will be 17% double attack, for brawlers with the hat from PHH that is 20% double attack. For Bruisers with their seven piece bonus that is 26% double attack. If they do change the strength line to a half way decent double attack percentage, lets say 2.5% per point, that will be 40% with both weapons and the PHH hat, not to mention any other loot that could be incoming with the new instance(doubtful, but possible). And yes, I /feedback and /petition those DWs every day.

[Timaarit]

The thing is that anyone can get the item effects. So those will be of course nice to have but since anyone can get them, they will be in no way balancing. They will be almost like DT bracelet, especially since DT bracelet in raid situation is really crappy wrist item for a monk. No, they need to do far better than that. But they just dont care. They have proven it so many times. In fact, we had elections here a while ago where politicians promised to do everything they hadn't been doing when they were able to. The devs promise time after time after time to look at things for brawlers and so far they have done just that, looked. And propably laughed. BTW, what does those items have to do with your enthusiasm about not upgrading the SoD reward for brawlers. If you really have one, you should be happy to get at least one worthwhile weapon even if it was from an easy quest.

[PaganSaint]

The reason I do not want a drastic or even moderate buff to the kama and am happy with the way it is is due to the fact I am a strong proponent of item progression. A reward from a quest that does not require any raiding should not be 100% comparable even to instance weaponry, not to mention contested. As it is I know, and hate the fact that brawlers have been shafter in weapon choice other than some rather rare and difficult to acquire weapons.

[Timaarit]

Well, then I recommned you take some other class and go balance the weapon progression than the already worst one. You see these weapons must be of equal quality between classes, if that meant they are out of what you think as progression, too bad. But they cannot give one class a reward that is clearly inferior to the rest of the classes that share the same purpose (in this case both tanking and dps). Also if they changed the legendary weapons damage spread from the 3x to 5,7x that the others have, it would not make it better than the EoF fabled ones. And for the fabled reward, well it would be from a NEW instance which would mean that the quality should be better than the average EoF instanced fabled weapons and better than anything from KoS. So the fixes wouldn't even break your progression.

[PaganSaint]

The staff, hammer and two hand sword are much inferior to the kama. So number three out of six is not so bad as you are making it sound. As for the fabled version being a top of the line as far as progression goes that does not make sense, at all, due to the fact that you are not contending with a random drop, nor even as far as we know a full completion of the zone to gain the fabled version of the quest rewards. Not to mention that two of the weapons I listed that the kama would replace, if upgraded to either a 5.7 damage ratio or a 3.0 damage ratio at a higher delay were contested weapons. Which should be top of the teir for their delay, range, and proc. As it is, they are, with the coming of the Soul Fire Kama and an upgrade(lengthening) to its range and/or delay they will not be a choice over the kama. Poor progression. As it is, I would consider and probably end up, using the Kama over the Stone of Tranquility if for nothing else than the double attack.

[Timaarit]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The staff, hammer and two hand sword are much inferior to the kama. <span style="color: #ffff33">So? They are not meant for fighters or scouts so this is totally irrelevant.</span> So number three out of six is not so bad as you are making it sound. <span style="color: #ffff00">Irrelevant, we are comparing weapons that fighters and scouts are using. The other weapons are made with another purpose in mind.</span> As for the fabled version being a top of the line as far as progression goes that does not make sense, at all, due to the fact that you are not contending with a random drop, nor even as far as we know a full completion of the zone to gain the fabled version of the quest rewards. Not to mention that two of the weapons I listed that the kama would replace, if upgraded to either a 5.7 damage ratio or a 3.0 damage ratio at a higher delay were contested weapons. Which should be top of the teir for their delay, range, and proc. As it is, they are, with the coming of the Soul Fire Kama and an upgrade(lengthening) to its range and/or delay they will not be a choice over the kama. Poor progression. As it is, I would consider and probably end up, using the Kama over the Stone of Tranquility if for nothing else than the double attack. </blockquote>As for your consideration, that would only mean that the Stone of Tranquility is crap, not that the Fabled Kama is too good. It also means you dont consider yourself as tank because you try to go for more DPS, which I think is good. As for myself, I'd use them both. After all, we can DW.

[PaganSaint]

My point was that we could be <i><b>much</b></i> worse off. Say another 1.6 weapon with the stats, effects and proc to be potentially great. As it is we have a good to great weapon. And if the kama was a 4.0s, 5.7 ratio weapon it <i>would</i> be the top of the progression list for brawler weapons, and not to mention hand and fist better than the other rewards due to the effect. EDIT: And by no means am I calling the stone of tranquility a poor weapon, but for dealing damage its effect and proc leave something to be desired rather heavily.

[Timaarit]

Sigh, we ARE worse off. And it is not a 1,6s weapon and it is not a 4s delay weapon either. Kama is worse weapon than what the already better performing classes get. Yes, the Kama is an upgrade for brawlers. But it is not the point. The point is that an inferior weapon is an upgrade to brawlers while the better weapons are not upgrades to the other classes in question. That is what is wrong in this matter. It is not about the brawler weapon and it is not about the fighter/scout weapons alone. It is about the disparity between those and the fact that even you with a bruiser think it is ok. If someone who plays a brawler doesnt really care about the disparity then how can we expect it from the devs. So the specualtion that we could have been worse off is not an excuse of any kind for this. Nor is the 'if it had been'. As for the stone and damage, all brawler weapons leave much to be desired.

[PaganSaint]

The sabre and gladius are both, or should be if the tank or scout isn't stupid, upgrades for the vast majority of the players of those two archtypes. The sabre is a bigger badder grinning dirk of horror while the gladius is, well nothing really compares to it for tanking for the average or even above average player. By those standards the brawler weapon <i><b>is</b></i> worse than the tank weapon and arguably for the scout weapon due to how a good many don't use the GDoH despite range and delay.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Zooce wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why does it say 'one hand' rather than 'dual wield'?</blockquote> They're changing all dual wield weapons to 1h. They're not removing Dual Wield. Just changing it to one hand.

[Timaarit]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sabre and gladius are both, or should be if the tank or scout isn't stupid, upgrades for the vast majority of the players of those two archtypes. The sabre is a bigger badder grinning dirk of horror while the gladius is, well nothing really compares to it for tanking for the average or even above average player. By those standards the brawler weapon <i><b>is</b></i> worse than the tank weapon and arguably for the scout weapon due to how a good many don't use the GDoH despite range and delay. </blockquote>But you werent talking about those people. You are the one who compared the weapons to loot from Avatar, so why dont you stop moving the goalposts.

[selch]

It does not worth doing last SoD quest, let alone another one...

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sabre and gladius are both, or should be if the tank or scout isn't stupid, upgrades for the vast majority of the players of those two archtypes. The sabre is a bigger badder grinning dirk of horror while the gladius is, well nothing really compares to it for tanking for the average or even above average player. By those standards the brawler weapon <i><b>is</b></i> worse than the tank weapon and arguably for the scout weapon due to how a good many don't use the GDoH despite range and delay. </blockquote>But you werent talking about those people. You are the one who compared the weapons to loot from Avatar, so why dont you stop moving the goalposts. </blockquote>Because the person I was talking to, you, were comparing them like that? Yeah... Don't say I'm changing the goal posts when I use the one you are using as the complete basis as your argument and agreeing with you using the exact criteria that fulfills your statement.

[Timaarit]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sabre and gladius are both, or should be if the tank or scout isn't stupid, upgrades for the vast majority of the players of those two archtypes. The sabre is a bigger badder grinning dirk of horror while the gladius is, well nothing really compares to it for tanking for the average or even above average player. By those standards the brawler weapon <i><b>is</b></i> worse than the tank weapon and arguably for the scout weapon due to how a good many don't use the GDoH despite range and delay. </blockquote>But you werent talking about those people. You are the one who compared the weapons to loot from Avatar, so why dont you stop moving the goalposts. </blockquote>Because the person I was talking to, you, were comparing them like that? Yeah... Don't say I'm changing the goal posts when I use the one you are using as the complete basis as your argument and agreeing with you using the exact criteria that fulfills your statement. </blockquote>Oh, but you are moving the goalposts. First you say that the monk weapon is too good because it is comparable to loot from Avatars, then you say that it is ok for the other weapons to be better since only that way they are an upgrade to majority of the players who cannot even kill the avatars. That is moving goalposts in its purest form. So you are wrong, the brawler Kama needs the proper urgrade to be on par with the rest of the weapons. If you think the progress is then broken, well then instead of leaving the Kama to its current state, they need to fix the rest of them.