Heals scaling in PvP and problems caused when engaged in PvE [Archive]

Tatate

06-18-2007, 11:06 PM

As many of you have probably read in the test update notes posted by Grimwell, healing is being scaled down when engaged in a PvP fight. Many people have brought up the issue of being attacked when you are engaged in a PvE fight, and the problem of your heals being scaled down because of that, therefore giving an unfair advantage to the person engaging you/ and or your group. My opinion and thought on this matter is, that, if you have first engaged a PvE mob and someone engages you AFTER you have engaged that PvE mob, your heals would NOT be scaled down to PvP. This in my opinion would be absolutely fair, and therefore discourage people from engaging your group when you are fighting a PvE mob. I understand that some people may say, "Then people might be able to engage a mob after engaging another player." I think that SOE could code it in to where your heals would still be scaled down after FIRST engaging another player. Please feel free to give your thoughts and opinions on this matter.Edit: Didn't realize that another thread is going on about this.

Ikuri

06-18-2007, 11:15 PM

I think this whole pvp/pve rule set is gettign too big and too messy. Poor new players trying to figure all this out. I think this is getting out of hand, there shouldn't be much difference between pvp and pve when it comes to a class's skills, ect ...most games have their pvp damage reduced, thats it. All these rules about your speed dropping, this and that not working in pvp, ect ect ect is kinda turning the game into a game with more rules than content.

Rastaah

06-18-2007, 11:23 PM

Well the OP's scenario is basically, gankage, and as we all know , thats just the usual thing for pvp servers. PVP heals already scale down on live (check your heals, there is a box for pvp heal and pve version of heal) What has happened is the heals have been reduced even further but the thing of heals changing in pvp fights is not new. The one thing I did note though is wards are now pvp vs pve versions whereas before it was just the pve version.

Norrsken

06-19-2007, 07:36 AM

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think this whole pvp/pve rule set is gettign too big and too messy. Poor new players trying to figure all this out. I think this is getting out of hand, there shouldn't be much difference between pvp and pve when it comes to a class's skills, ect ...most games have their pvp damage reduced, thats it. All these rules about your speed dropping, this and that not working in pvp, ect ect ect is kinda turning the game into a game with more rules than content. </blockquote>Well, if you scale down damage, you need to scale down heals. And the incombat runspeed cant be achieved by any other means than class. Most other things you can get by items. Make horses have incombat runspeed to let people get their own incombat runspeed to even the playing field, otherwise, remove incobmat runspeed in pvp.

Legiax

06-19-2007, 07:50 AM

Good... Healers needed to be toned down inline with all the DPS nerfs. I hope its drastic enough tbh, theres nothing fun at all about watching a healer go from 20%, to 100% in 2 heals, then staying at 70%-100% without really breaking a sweat, + with fury animal form its [Removed for Content].The heals in PvE whilst in PvP will still work the same as they do now I'd imagine.

Fratzz

06-19-2007, 08:14 AM

The OP has valid point. But imagine another situation, which happens often to one of my toons lately. I roam through a zone get attacked, the ranger (hehe) pulls back into a bunch of mobs, he being high enough not to aggro them, me being low enough to aggro them. As melee I can only pursuit him, so I have him and the mobs beating on me. What will the healing be like then? First engaged in PvP and being forced to PvE additionally afterwards?

Norrsken

06-19-2007, 08:32 AM

Fratzz@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>The OP has valid point. But imagine another situation, which happens often to one of my toons lately. I roam through a zone get attacked, the ranger (hehe) pulls back into a bunch of mobs, he being high enough not to aggro them, me being low enough to aggro them. As melee I can only pursuit him, so I have him and the mobs beating on me. What will the healing be like then? First engaged in PvP and being forced to PvE additionally afterwards? </blockquote>OR you can simply not run after him into the mobs like any other class that is not op enough to withstand both pve and pvp currently. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

rvbarton

06-19-2007, 08:32 AM

Narl@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Good... Healers needed to be toned down inline with all the DPS nerfs. I hope its drastic enough tbh, theres nothing fun at all about watching a healer go from 20%, to 100% in 2 heals, then staying at 70%-100% without really breaking a sweat, + with fury animal form its [I cannot control my vocabulary].The heals in PvE whilst in PvP will still work the same as they do now I'd imagine. </blockquote>Have you even played a healer? Are you upset because you, as a wizard, cannot one-shot, or two-shot a healer now? Healers have no DPS. Heals should not be nerfed, simply the DPS should be nerfed. Healer DPS has been nerfed on test, and if the heals get nerfed, then there will be no healers playing that much. No healers, no game. I'm so tired of everyone crying because they are getting nerfed. I think the expectations are out of control, and the update hasn't even been released yet. Why not wait and see what happens? If you dont' like it at that time, then post a negative comment. I agree certain classes were extremely overpowered in PVP. People choose classes based on power, and their playstyle. In a nutshell, this is my opinion of the pros and cons of certain classes, but not all classes...: Mages= Insane magical damage, at the cost of being very physically frail. easy to beat up on, but dangerous from a distance. If a mage goes toe to toe with anyone other than a mage, they should get their a$$'es kicked! Healers= group support. Period. No DPS, but to kill a healer should be nigh very difficult, to say the least... toe to toe, or from a distance. dont' expect a preist to kill you, but you shouldn't be able to kill them.

Splintered

06-19-2007, 10:52 AM

while I agree something should be done, I am not quite sure what the answer is. If heals were not scaled down, then any group could target a trash mob to engage, and then engage in pvp. On the same token though, people could easily grief an entire raid.

Fratzz

06-19-2007, 11:37 AM

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Fratzz@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>The OP has valid point. But imagine another situation, which happens often to one of my toons lately. I roam through a zone get attacked, the ranger (hehe) pulls back into a bunch of mobs, he being high enough not to aggro them, me being low enough to aggro them. As melee I can only pursuit him, so I have him and the mobs beating on me. What will the healing be like then? First engaged in PvP and being forced to PvE additionally afterwards? </blockquote>OR you can simply not run after him into the mobs like any other class that is not op enough to withstand both pve and pvp currently. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> And wait till he shot me to death from his safe and guarded place, while receiving low pvp heals and getting the beat of pve and pvp creatures<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rastaah

06-19-2007, 12:20 PM

On test my level 37 warden's heals were not cut in half. Are you guys saying 70th level healers are literally cut in half on test?If this is true, forget it. Thats just too much. I can take a nerf in line with the dps reduction, but I seriously doubt anyone got their dps nerfed in half.

Siphar

06-19-2007, 01:07 PM

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think this whole pvp/pve rule set is gettign too big and too messy. Poor new players trying to figure all this out. I think this is getting out of hand, there shouldn't be much difference between pvp and pve when it comes to a class's skills, ect ...most games have their pvp damage reduced, thats it. All these rules about your speed dropping, this and that not working in pvp, ect ect ect is kinda turning the game into a game with more rules than content. </blockquote>Well, if you scale down damage, you need to scale down heals. And the incombat runspeed cant be achieved by any other means than class. Most other things you can get by items. Make horses have incombat runspeed to let people get their own incombat runspeed to even the playing field, otherwise, remove incobmat runspeed in pvp. </blockquote>Firstly, the dps was lowered to make fights longer, therefore lowing heal amount will make it the same as it is now? well duh...Secondly, if you took the time to read teh test notes, in-combat speed was taken out and made public about a week ago, and has been talking to death already.

Siphar

06-19-2007, 01:09 PM

<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote>Narl@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Good... Healers needed to be toned down inline with all the DPS nerfs. I hope its drastic enough tbh, theres nothing fun at all about watching a healer go from 20%, to 100% in 2 heals, then staying at 70%-100% without really breaking a sweat, + with fury animal form its [I cannot control my vocabulary].The heals in PvE whilst in PvP will still work the same as they do now I'd imagine. </blockquote>Have you even played a healer? Are you upset because you, as a wizard, cannot one-shot, or two-shot a healer now? Healers have no DPS. Heals should not be nerfed, simply the DPS should be nerfed. Healer DPS has been nerfed on test, and if the heals get nerfed, then there will be no healers playing that much. No healers, no game. I'm so tired of everyone crying because they are getting nerfed. I think the expectations are out of control, and the update hasn't even been released yet. Why not wait and see what happens? If you dont' like it at that time, then post a negative comment. I agree certain classes were extremely overpowered in PVP. People choose classes based on power, and their playstyle. In a nutshell, this is my opinion of the pros and cons of certain classes, but not all classes...: Mages= Insane magical damage, at the cost of being very physically frail. easy to beat up on, but dangerous from a distance. If a mage goes toe to toe with anyone other than a mage, they should get their [I cannot control my vocabulary]'es kicked! Healers= group support. Period. No DPS, but to kill a healer should be nigh very difficult, to say the least... toe to toe, or from a distance. dont' expect a preist to kill you, but you shouldn't be able to kill them. </blockquote> QFE

Pvpmedics

06-19-2007, 02:29 PM

If you tone down the damage and the healing, than I would imagine you should have just kept damage and healing the same as before no? Honestly it makes no sense to me, i think they should just leave the damage the same and healing the same as it is on live. I play a Mystic and I can defend myself alot easier on live right now then on the test server. Sense yesterday when they made the wards scaled I cant seem to win one fight. I understand a if a scout or somone comes up behind me and gankes me without me knowing, I probably have less of a chance to win the fight. But on the test server Im able to preward myself and yet I still die to a scout in 2 seconds. I dont really want this to sound like im putting other healer down, but Wardens/Furys have extremely fast casting times on there HoTs, and Templar/Inquisitors get an AA line that decreases there casting times. Us mystics have extremely long casting time on our wards, so when a fight starts its almost impossible to get another ward off during the fight, becuase we get interupted or stuned. I can cast my single target ward on myself and get to 95% done with my cast then get interupted then it has to start casting over then get to 95% again then interupted, then it castes again and get to 95% and interupted or stuned then im dead. I fought a berserker about 5 times in a row to test out my wards. I prewarded and he went through all 3k worth of wards in 2 seconds flat. Than I was unable to cast my single target ward on myself the entire fight, as I was interupted over 6 times trying to cast my ward. I really feel that us Mystics/defilers should get some sort of AA that reduces casting of our wards. It doesnt have to be every spell just our group and single target ward, maybe 1 second less casting time with max AA points in there. 1 second may not seem like a lot to most of you but when my wards get to 95% and get interupted that 1 second will help out alot. Or even make our wards 1 second less casting time for just in pvp combat. Even though the heal reduction was brought in Wardens/Furys/Templar/Inquisitors Can still cast 2 times faster then a mystic so they have a higher chance on healing them self in a fight then a mystic/defiler. Please dont get me wrong im not trying to put any healer class down, but if you get a chance to make a mystic on test server and use the buff bot, go try the class out and see what im talking about compared to your healer that you play now.

Aeralik

06-19-2007, 02:38 PM

Heals already scale in pve if someone engages you in pvp. So there is a small reduction but overall its not a huge change from what is on live right now.

Rastaah

06-19-2007, 03:04 PM

As to the mystic above who posted I agree with you. I am a warden but I have a mystic alt who I just betrayed to a defiler and yes, its already hard on live, why would they even consider nerfing wards I do not know. Especially the slow cast ones. Anyway I am hoping the Dev's will rethink some of this and only nerf the healing 100% in line with how much the dps got nerfed, and again like someone else said, that puts us back to where we are now.What is going on? I am a little confused.

Pvpmedics

06-19-2007, 03:07 PM

It might not be a big change but it makes a difference to the Shaman class that has extremely long casting times. Why not change the AA that increases block chance by 1% per rank and make that into a usfull AA like. Decrease your Single and Group ward casting times by 1% to 2% per rank. I mean 1 second to .5 second less casting time on a ward would make such a big difference, and it would benefit not only in PvP but in PvE as well. Look at the Warden/Fury class they can cast extremly fast so they have a 90% chance to successfully complete a heal on themself without getting interupted and this is with multiple scouts on one. Templar/Inquisitor get an AA that decreases there casting times so they have a higher chance on of successfuly completeting a heal spell without interuption. As for Mystic/Defilers we can get interupted multiple times in a fight and somtimes never get to cast a ward an entire PvP fight as there is so many interupts/stunes other classes can use. I was interupted over 6 times in a 15 second period trying to cast a single target ward on myself, fighting a scout or a zerker. I rolled a warden on the test server and used the buff bot on him to 70. I wanted to test it out as I use to play a warden. I was able to take on 2 scouts at once, with less interupts and kept my self alive. Then I fought one of the same scouts that I just 1 vs 2 with and just one of those scouts interupted me so much that he killed me in couple seconds. I know my class and know how to play him good, also have great gear. I think I should be able put up a better fight then how it is going now, as I can take on 2 scouts at once with a warden with only relic gear on. Give us some sort of decrase in the ward casting times and it will be fair, as right now killing a mystic takes no stratigy at all.

Ahlana

06-19-2007, 03:09 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: Firstly, the dps was lowered to make fights longer, therefore lowing heal amount will make it the same as it is now? well duh...</blockquote> Actually nerfing heals inline with DPS will still make fights longer overall. You could even hash out a test scenerio to show it. This line of thinking that lowering heals will keep the fight times the same is severely flawed and without justification. Though what could be stated is that the victor of the battles will not change... and since the patch seems to be about lengthening the battle time as a whole, who still remains the winner is of little use in the arguement.So long as Heals are scaled with DPS by the same or less percentage than DPS is then the fights will still be longer than they previously were... /shrug do the math

Pvpmedics

06-19-2007, 03:19 PM

I have tested this out many many times and scouts still go through me as quick as they do on the live server, so I really am not seeing a change in dps. An assasin/brigand/berserker was able to kill me in 2 second on live and on test can still kill me in 2 seconds. The worse part about this is I can have 3k worth of wards up before they attack me and still kill me in 2 seconds because I cant get another ward off during the fight, is this really fair to the shaman class? We get interupted way to much becuase of our long casting times on our wards and its really rediculous. I can take on a assasin and a brigan at the same time on test server with my warden and the fight will last for a good 3 to 4 minutes. I can fight just one assasin with my mystic and last about 2 seconds. How is this a fair advantage?

KannaWhoopass

06-19-2007, 03:22 PM

What im having problems with is....DPS was scaled down because it was too high .....but as far as i can tell and i could be wrong .. it was certain abilities .. like sniper shot or harm touch which were extreme spike DPS spells. But with the exception of those abilities the DPS of the other spells were left the same?Healing which is based on an average heal / second if you will is being reduced ?Im not clear on this . So really healing was reduced across the board VS DPS is relativly the same with the exception 5 or 15 min BIG hits?Was was the Average DPS reduced also ? as in all DPS spells had damage reduced ?Because all i see othewise . not knowing for sure the factors for reducing heals or DPS it that the changes are cosmetic. The fights will end the same way .. it will just take a little longer .If a Brigand or Ranger wizard whatever had the ability to overwhelm healing before .. They still have that ability now. In fact if DPS was not scaled down across the board also .. then it will be less dificult to kill a healer .. who has had healing reduced. The change in effect will only change the one hit wonders ... who will need to fight a fight longer than 3 seconds. And if healing and DPS was scaled down across the board .. whats the point. To give the illusion of combat changing when in effect its just watching the same result in slow motion. I can see it allowing more time for human reaction if the fight lasts a few more seconds was that the intent ?Could not the same thing have been achieved by adding 20% to all cast timers. The fights would take 20% longer with the same end result. Im a little vague on the intent of the changes.

Ahlana

06-19-2007, 03:31 PM

Well let's look at rangers for a second since they have the most input so far on this. Even their auto-shot was reduced in DPS... that is right.. their auto-shot. that is an across the board DPS nerf for them. Not to mention snares and such reduced in time for them severely lowers their DPS due to positioning... A good player... hell even a fair PVPer will now lengthen the time it takes to fight a Ranger by a good amount. Now I know everyone will say that rangers deserved it. Maybe so... in my time at PVP they never really gave me much of a problem unless they had the range. (hmm kinda in the name) you take the range away and you kill the ranger. Anyways... so yes some classes have had DPS sweeps across their class... others not so much... Does this mean that Heals shouldn't be so wide sweeping? Who knows like I stated fights will still be longer... which is really the only definition we have for any of this happening.And as far as test server shows.. the net return is very little in actual time.... mere seconds in some cases. Fights that lasted 2-4 seconds now last about 5-7seconds. /shrug

lavasoul

06-19-2007, 03:44 PM

I'm not a mystic but I'm a paladin and I have heals/ward like mystic do. I for one am not happy with nerf on both my heals/ward. Heals are already scaled down as it is on live and now it got scaled down even further, this I'm ok with but also having my ward scaled down to really hurts in a fight. Many other class has a lot of stun and stifle and before my ward is able to keep me up during that time while I just auto-attack, but now after I recover from stun/stifle I have to keep healing/warding to try to stay alive so I can land some hit on my enemy.In all the plate tanks paladin has the lowest avoidance/mit if evenly gear with other plate tanks and our dps is 2nd to last and now this nerf is gonna affect us even more. I hope you adjust our damage to make up for the reduction on our heal/ward.

Darkor

06-19-2007, 04:01 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well let's look at rangers for a second since they have the most input so far on this. Even their auto-shot was reduced in DPS... that is right.. their auto-shot. that is an across the board DPS nerf for them. Not to mention snares and such reduced in time for them severely lowers their DPS due to positioning... A good player... hell even a fair PVPer will now lengthen the time it takes to fight a Ranger by a good amount. Now I know everyone will say that rangers deserved it. Maybe so... in my time at PVP they never really gave me much of a problem unless they had the range. (hmm kinda in the name) you take the range away and you kill the ranger. Anyways... so yes some classes have had DPS sweeps across their class... others not so much... Does this mean that Heals shouldn't be so wide sweeping? Who knows like I stated fights will still be longer... which is really the only definition we have for any of this happening.And as far as test server shows.. the net return is very little in actual time.... mere seconds in some cases. Fights that lasted 2-4 seconds now last about 5-7seconds. /shrug</blockquote>With Auto Shot do you mean your Auto Attack? Ofcourse it needed to be reduced. Ive got shot by 2k auto attacks from a ranger. That is on so many level wrong lol. Who needs Snipershot or Rain of Arrow when you can hit for 2k on auto attacks.

Pvpmedics

06-19-2007, 04:08 PM

There isnt many mystics on these forums that seem to be giving much feedback as we are pretty rare class in pvp. So i really hope the devs/coders take my feedback and make it usefull. I really think you should be looking into the casting time of a ward compaired to other Healer classes heals. Either we need to have our wards reduced in casting time with in pvp combat only or an AA ability, or you need to increase the immunity time for being interupted and stuned during a pvp fight. Its almost impossible to get a ward off during a pvp fight without being interupted or stuned. If im unable to cast my wards during a fight and successfully complete the cast im pretty much going to die fast. Honestly i dont see a reduction in dps, because my class still goes down within seconds because we cant heal fast enough to stay alive. I go down just as fast on test server as I do on the live server.

InfiniteFidelity

06-21-2007, 04:01 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heals already scale in pve if someone engages you in pvp. So there is a small reduction but overall its not a huge change from what is on live right now. </blockquote> It's a massive change from what is on live now.Atleast on live,I can heal through the initial DPS of a ranger in most cases..now on Test...I can't heal through it because my bigest heal only heals me for about 9% of my max health.My big single target regen only heals for about 4% per tick...It's rediculous.

CresentBlade

06-21-2007, 04:11 AM

<cite>InfiniteFidelity wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heals already scale in pve if someone engages you in pvp. So there is a small reduction but overall its not a huge change from what is on live right now. </blockquote> It's a massive change from what is on live now.Atleast on live,I can heal through the initial DPS of a ranger in most cases..now on Test...I can't heal through it because my bigest heal only heals me for about 9% of my max health.My big single target regen only heals for about 4% per tick...It's rediculous.</blockquote>Nice huh scouts dont get nerfed now but healers do, the real reason becomes clear now. One of the few classes that kind of gave scouts trouble were healers and we cant have that, Nerf healers.

novok

06-21-2007, 11:17 AM

I'm starting to get a real bad feeling about the next GU.Too many far-reaching changes, too little sense of how they will all actually work out together in the end.Not to mention that with changes this major we are certain to see a new crop of nasty little bugs rear their heads.I hate to say it, but I am really starting to get the feeling that Aerilik is making this stuff up as he goes along.

Rastaah

06-21-2007, 11:21 AM

Yea on live I too can barely heal through scout burst dps, only reason I make it sometimes is I run with another healer who can heal me. IF I were alone 1vs1 , forget it. Why did they nerf scout dps? lol. Its now back to where it was, but even worse. Im finding these changes odd and all over the place.

Ramjet444

06-21-2007, 12:32 PM

As far as I understood, I thought that just DPS across the board was getting nerfed and the nerfage being scaled appropriately from higher dps classes to the lower, druids being in the higher category. But now, from what I have read on the boards, healers not only have there dps reduced but we also have the added nerf of our healing reduced? Does'nt that mean that healers are getting double the nerfage than other classes? I play alot of alts on live, three being healers. If I find that they have been made useless for pvp and EQ2 has reverted back to scoutquest, then thats three less healers that won't be played.

Rastaah

06-21-2007, 02:16 PM

Yes we had a double nerf, also they nerfed us again yesterday (seem bottom of patch notes heh)

novok

06-21-2007, 02:19 PM

That was just kinda like an "oops I forgot to nerf this" thing.You're bound to forget a detail or two when you make things up as you go along.

Rastaah

06-21-2007, 02:22 PM

Exactly, I see no thought put into any of this. It is a patchwork quilt of weird changes .

Tatate

06-21-2007, 11:17 PM

Some classes needed a tweaking, here and there. The changes to the KoS AA tree are fine. A lot of this other stuff though does seem rather...out of no-where?

Sanchez469

06-21-2007, 11:39 PM

The more I read stuff about the update the more I get upset. First of all I log into the test server to see that my melee crit chance of 76% is now at 60%. Now you may think [I cannot control my vocabulary] u complaining about.. well when you are a defiler and your highest dps spell doesnt even break the 800 mark well we have a problem. I mean come on devs our dps is down right ridiculous and now here you are toning down our heals and ward? [I cannot control my vocabulary]... defilers are the slowest casting healer out there and now the only thing that can keep us alive you are nerfing? Toss us a bone devs please!! I am guessing none of the devs really play a defiler or a mystic and even if they do they get so bored with em in like 5 mins and toss us in the bin and make a decision like this rofl. Have u ever heard anyone say a mystic or a defiler as being overpowered? I sure as hell haven't. and I've been around since day 1 rofl.

tiredang

06-22-2007, 10:45 AM

<cite>Sanchez469 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The more I read stuff about the update the more I get upset. First of all I log into the test server to see that my melee crit chance of 76% is now at 60%. Now you may think [I cannot control my vocabulary] u complaining about.. well when you are a defiler and your highest dps spell doesnt even break the 800 mark well we have a problem. I mean come on devs our dps is down right ridiculous and now here you are toning down our heals and ward? [I cannot control my vocabulary]... defilers are the slowest casting healer out there and now the only thing that can keep us alive you are nerfing? Toss us a bone devs please!! I am guessing none of the devs really play a defiler or a mystic and even if they do they get so bored with em in like 5 mins and toss us in the bin and make a decision like this rofl. Have u ever heard anyone say a mystic or a defiler as being overpowered? I sure as hell haven't. and I've been around since day 1 rofl.</blockquote> I keep repeating myself on this but . . . druids, both furies and wardens, are the class that need healing power toned down the most and instead they get affected the least by this.Because shamans and clerics have such slow casting heals (shamans more than clerics because of aa lines), we get interrupted a lot more. Druids do not get interrupted nearly as much, which is part of the reason they can heal SO well in pvp. So if heal amounts are nerfed, druids STILL can heal far more hitpoints per second because they're not interrupted nearly as much -- this is going to make slow heals that much less potent.Gah, at least give us a focus aa line. I have a warden, I know how much easier it is to pvp heal. I'm not asking for dps (our laughable dps is now nerfed -- though this nerf admittedly will hurt mystics far more than defilers because a melee mystic DOES do damage), I'm not asking for more utility (even though defiler sow stops at 20%, and has no other speed boosters) -- I chose defiler because I wanted to be a healer. I chose a class that sacrified utility for the ability to heal in an amazing way. PvP healing as a defiler is already very challenging. If it were easymode, there's be as many defilers as druids. Instead, to nerf druids, all priests are affected, and again, druids are affected the LEAST.Edit: saw a couple glaring typoes that I HAD to fix

Bozidar

06-22-2007, 10:49 AM

/cheer Angelyc

The_Real_Ohno

06-22-2007, 10:56 AM

IMO id rather SoE just scrap this update. So many class changes to pretty much everyone. Some were askin for dmg nerfs, look what happened, everyone got nerfed then they nerf healers. Taunts next?Pretty much everyone in game is moping around, like the bigs doomsday is coming or somethin.Everytime SoE does this, so many ppl leave the game, and thats never a good thing.

toenukl

06-22-2007, 11:03 AM

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>PvP healing as a defiler is already very challenging. If it were easymode, there's be as many defilers as druids. Instead, to nerf druids, all priests are affected, and again, druids are affected the LEAST.</blockquote> I agree to an extent. Firstly, Furies really have been nerfed to Hell, roll one on Test and see how many duels you win. Secondly, I agree that defilers healing in pvp is tough. If SOE wants fights to last longer, nerfing heals isn't logical imo. Less healing=faster death. The initial damage reduction in pvp actually gave non-druid healers a chance to survive in pvp, and now w/ the healing nerf, you seem to be right back to square one.

tiredang

06-22-2007, 12:16 PM

Nail@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Angelyc@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>PvP healing as a defiler is already very challenging. If it were easymode, there's be as many defilers as druids. Instead, to nerf druids, all priests are affected, and again, druids are affected the LEAST.</blockquote> I agree to an extent. Firstly, Furies really have been nerfed to Hell, roll one on Test and see how many duels you win. Secondly, I agree that defilers healing in pvp is tough. If SOE wants fights to last longer, nerfing heals isn't logical imo. Less healing=faster death. The initial damage reduction in pvp actually gave non-druid healers a chance to survive in pvp, and now w/ the healing nerf, you seem to be right back to square one. </blockquote> I really was referring to healing power, not additional nerfs to dps, runspeed, etc. Reduction in heals will affect druids, but not nearly to the extent that it will affect clerics and especially shamans. I know druids int line actually does increase their focus, so in addition to very fast heals, they can further prevent interrupts.I'm not asking to be a solo class, to be able to wtfpwn faces, but I do want to be viable in a group. As it is, I'm already second in groups to druids (as in, ok, we have a defiler, let's find a druid) because they can spot heal so much faster. And for those people who tell me "if druids are so great, roll one and play one" I have a 70 warden. I think the devs need to look at how different types of heals and how interrupts really do play a role in pvp healing and make changes according to that rather than just across the board nerfs.

toenukl

06-22-2007, 01:33 PM

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>And for those people who tell me "if druids are so great, roll one and play one" I have a 70 warden. I think the devs need to look at how different types of heals and how interrupts really do play a role in pvp healing and make changes according to that rather than just across the board nerfs.</blockquote>Warden is totally different than Fury, sure there are similarities however. The incombat runspeed and dmg reduction effected Furies much more than Wardens. Furies had our class defining ability, PoC and our other incombat speeds, removed completely. That would be like taking tracking away from Scouts. Tracking leads them to prey, and PoC helped us get away. But I shrugged that off. Then I saw the damage reduction, no biggie, balances out our heals. Then the cure/heal nerf... little too far imo. But about your group healing etc etc, again I agree 100% PS: For those Furies asking if PoC can be used before we engage, your answer is no. I tried it on Test today, let me cast it but speed did not change at all. It still throws you into combat as it does on Live. Warden's can still evac if they dont engage, I think PoC should be same way.

Bloodfa

06-22-2007, 01:59 PM

So, hypothetically, a 62 Fury is running along to meet his guildies for a dungeon run, and sees a 70 SK bearing down on him while still too far away to have any chance of help from the rest of his group (say he's filling in for somebody dropped from the group). Normal reaction would be to PoC towards the group, zone in and be safe, right? Now suppose a lone 25 Assassin sees him and plinks an arrow into him. PoC drops and the SK has Fury-for-dinner?

toenukl

06-22-2007, 02:26 PM

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>So, hypothetically, a 62 Fury is running along to meet his guildies for a dungeon run, and sees a 70 SK bearing down on him while still too far away to have any chance of help from the rest of his group (say he's filling in for somebody dropped from the group). Normal reaction would be to PoC towards the group, zone in and be safe, right? Now suppose a lone 25 Assassin sees him and plinks an arrow into him. PoC drops and the SK has Fury-for-dinner?</blockquote>Yup.

Bloodfa

06-22-2007, 03:05 PM

That's messed up. My boss is gonna be [Removed for Content] when he gets back from vacation.

tiredang

06-22-2007, 03:12 PM

Nail@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>So, hypothetically, a 62 Fury is running along to meet his guildies for a dungeon run, and sees a 70 SK bearing down on him while still too far away to have any chance of help from the rest of his group (say he's filling in for somebody dropped from the group). Normal reaction would be to PoC towards the group, zone in and be safe, right? Now suppose a lone 25 Assassin sees him and plinks an arrow into him. PoC drops and the SK has Fury-for-dinner?</blockquote>Yup. </blockquote> Please don't take this the wrong way, but OTHER nerfs to furies do not really affect the fact that heal scaling (the topic of this thread) hits shamans the hardest. You still will have a lot more utility than non-druids, and people really want DRUIDS toned down as it is. I'm trying to make it clear that THIS particular nerf will nerf a few classes that really do not need nerfing at all.

Aeralik

06-22-2007, 03:39 PM

On my defiler using the live data Malignant shroud master one is 1330 in pvp. With the current changes its 1173. Keep in mind that previously wards were not displaying their pvp amounts so 1565 to 1173 does look like a huge amount but the real change is 1330 to 1173. Wards just work differently than a normal heal in pvp since they can be cast before the fight starts so the true adjustments are done while taking damage from pvp targets.

Bozidar

06-22-2007, 03:42 PM

tiredang

06-22-2007, 05:47 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>On my defiler using the live data Malignant shroud master one is 1330 in pvp. With the current changes its 1173. Keep in mind that previously wards were not displaying their pvp amounts so 1565 to 1173 does look like a huge amount but the real change is 1330 to 1173. Wards just work differently than a normal heal in pvp since they can be cast before the fight starts so the true adjustments are done while taking damage from pvp targets. </blockquote> That's still a large change to a class that really is not broken. I don't want my healing on my defiler to be as easy as it is on my warden but the fact that we dont' have a fast cast aside from our emergencies nor a lot of utility means that if we are not healing as well as druids (and we won't be with the interrupts), this group dependant class may end up having problems.I do appreciate you answering this concern!

silentpsycho

06-22-2007, 06:08 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>On my defiler using the live data Malignant shroud master one is 1330 in pvp. With the current changes its 1173. Keep in mind that previously wards were not displaying their pvp amounts so 1565 to 1173 does look like a huge amount but the real change is 1330 to 1173. Wards just work differently than a normal heal in pvp since they can be cast before the fight starts so the true adjustments are done while taking damage from pvp targets. </blockquote> that's a 12% reduction, and seems rather large to me. What is the overall dps reduction?</blockquote> From my testing this morning on my Bruiser and Brigand, melee dps has not noticeably changed if spec'ed proplerly AA and gear wise, and you know what you are doing. Double up nerf, etc. sucks, but eh.From testing on my wizard and necro, caster DPS has gotten a lot better with nullifying resists. I need to test this a bit more, but so far, so good. And wizard looks downright awesome to play at the moment. Thanks SOE!That leaves... uh, healers? As far as I can tell, overall the incoming DPS is has not changed a noticeable amount, while heals are significantly worse. If things quiet down in sinking sands, I'll try testing this again on my 70 defiler and fury later.

toenukl

06-22-2007, 06:21 PM

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote> Please don't take this the wrong way, but OTHER nerfs to furies do not really affect the fact that heal scaling (the topic of this thread) hits shamans the hardest. You still will have a lot more utility than non-druids, and people really want DRUIDS toned down as it is. I'm trying to make it clear that THIS particular nerf will nerf a few classes that really do not need nerfing at all.</blockquote>Sorry if I came across the wrong way, was mixing my concerns of my class w/ my reply post to you hehe. On your topic I actually do agree with you 100%. In group PvP all healers should be just as desirable and it really is not the case. I really would like to see the heal nerf reversed for all healing classes, even druids. Now that being said, you make it seem like druids did need the heal nerf, but not other healing classes which I do not agree with. Our dps was lowered much more than other healing classes and our main utility PoC is now gone. We don't have that many utilities... The PoC, root, and dmg nerf to Fury, again not sure on Warden as I don't play one, put us on par w/ other healers imo. Please reverse heal nerf across all healing classes. Would a good solution for shamans be faster casting during pvp on wards? Dunno, just throwing it out there...

silentpsycho

06-22-2007, 06:22 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>On my defiler using the live data Malignant shroud master one is 1330 in pvp. With the current changes its 1173. Keep in mind that previously wards were not displaying their pvp amounts so 1565 to 1173 does look like a huge amount but the real change is 1330 to 1173. Wards just work differently than a normal heal in pvp since they can be cast before the fight starts so the true adjustments are done while taking damage from pvp targets. </blockquote>One minor adjustment Aeralik; Wards do work differently from a normal heal in pvp since they can *only* be cast before the fight starts. If anything, given one group ward and maybe one or two single target wards are all you are going to get to cast in a real PVP fight (if your emergency wards and/or fear happens to work), they need to be boosted in strength and/or made uninteruptible. At least let us do our jobs in a PVP fight. I don't know about the rest of you, but everyone knows to attack me first in just about every PVP battle. If I don't get a chance to pre-ward (and our warden/fury main healer is afk), the group usually wipes.

toenukl

06-22-2007, 06:42 PM

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>On my defiler using the live data Malignant shroud master one is 1330 in pvp. With the current changes its 1173. Keep in mind that previously wards were not displaying their pvp amounts so 1565 to 1173 does look like a huge amount but the real change is 1330 to 1173. Wards just work differently than a normal heal in pvp since they can be cast before the fight starts so the true adjustments are done while taking damage from pvp targets. </blockquote> that's a 12% reduction, and seems rather large to me. What is the overall dps reduction?</blockquote> From my testing this morning on my Bruiser and Brigand, melee dps has not noticeably changed if spec'ed proplerly AA and gear wise, and you know what you are doing. Double up nerf, etc. sucks, but eh.From testing on my wizard and necro, caster DPS has gotten a lot better with nullifying resists. I need to test this a bit more, but so far, so good. And wizard looks downright awesome to play at the moment. Thanks SOE!That leaves... uh, healers? As far as I can tell, overall the incoming DPS is has not changed a noticeable amount, while heals are significantly worse. If things quiet down in sinking sands, I'll try testing this again on my 70 defiler and fury later.</blockquote>Agree, I go down very fast on Test, way to fast to keep myself alive or even get off any kind of damage spell. Less resists mean some classes are doing way more damage then before, the only classes that really are doing less damage now are the ones that actually needed it. And please respond with your defiler and fury experiences, that is if you can actually test anything at all with the 10 year old griefers at the docks.

tiredang

06-22-2007, 06:52 PM

Nail@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Angelyc@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote> Please don't take this the wrong way, but OTHER nerfs to furies do not really affect the fact that heal scaling (the topic of this thread) hits shamans the hardest. You still will have a lot more utility than non-druids, and people really want DRUIDS toned down as it is. I'm trying to make it clear that THIS particular nerf will nerf a few classes that really do not need nerfing at all.</blockquote>Sorry if I came across the wrong way, was mixing my concerns of my class w/ my reply post to you hehe. On your topic I actually do agree with you 100%. In group PvP all healers should be just as desirable and it really is not the case. I really would like to see the heal nerf reversed for all healing classes, even druids. Now that being said, you make it seem like druids did need the heal nerf, but not other healing classes which I do not agree with. Our dps was lowered much more than other healing classes and our main utility PoC is now gone. We don't have that many utilities... The PoC, root, and dmg nerf to Fury, again not sure on Warden as I don't play one, put us on par w/ other healers imo. Please reverse heal nerf across all healing classes. Would a good solution for shamans be faster casting during pvp on wards? Dunno, just throwing it out there... </blockquote>I would be happy with an aa that increased our focus. I think faster wards would be incredibly unbalancing, but having that extra second of damage absorbtion makes a huge difference when trying to keep a group up.I would also say that druids heals due to their fast casting nature and huge size of warden direct heals (once regen is taken into account) and the two extra fury direct heals do put them a bit out of line with other healers so heal nerfs that hit all healers will hit non-druids harder because our heals are so slow im comparison.I do think healers should be hard to kill, maybe almost impossible without it being a long LONG fight. We should be able to heal as well as another class dpses. I don't think healers need their heals nerfed, especially since the strongest of the healers are neutral classes, but I actually would like there to not really BE a strongest heal class, only complimentary. IOW, people view defiler/inq as advantagous as defiler/fury or warden/inq or whatever.

Mildavyn

06-22-2007, 07:44 PM

OK folks, I've said it before, I'll say it again: FFS THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!Everyone is doing less damage, and less healing, which means that relative to now, you have more effective HP. Which means that fights will last longer. Which means that Aerlik (sp?) has acheived what he wanted.Now as for why your heals needed nerfing, here's why: Because everyone's DPS was nerfed! If they left your healing alone, then you'd easily be able to out-heal anyone. I fought a templar on test with my troub last week, and his heals were so powerful that he was still at 60% power when i died. Now normally fights with templar are really close for me... yet that one was able to completely destroy me without even breaking a sweat. THAT is why. Because if your heals weren't toned down, then you'd be overpowered.EDIT: People have this annoying habit of looking at the one change made to their class and saying OMG OMG IM BEING NERFZORED!!! What you people fail to see is that these changes are not happening inside a vacuum. YOUR CLASS IS NOT THE ONLY ONE BEING CHANGED. If your heals were not nerfed, you would be OVERPOWERED because of the DPS nerf to other classes. After these changes, you will live longer as it is, just because you have more effective HPs. If you look at the heal changes on their own, then yes it's a nerf. When you stop the whining for a second and look at the whole picture though, it's not a nerf, it's just a change, and you are actually getting more out of this change than you are losing. FACT. Stop the whining, and THINK about the changes, you'll see that it's a good thing for your class.

tiredang

06-22-2007, 08:48 PM

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>OK folks, I've said it before, I'll say it again: FFS THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!Everyone is doing less damage, and less healing, which means that relative to now, you have more effective HP. Which means that fights will last longer. Which means that Aerlik (sp?) has acheived what he wanted.Now as for why your heals needed nerfing, here's why: Because everyone's DPS was nerfed! If they left your healing alone, then you'd easily be able to out-heal anyone. I fought a templar on test with my troub last week, and his heals were so powerful that he was still at 60% power when i died. Now normally fights with templar are really close for me... yet that one was able to completely destroy me without even breaking a sweat. THAT is why. Because if your heals weren't toned down, then you'd be overpowered.EDIT: People have this annoying habit of looking at the one change made to their class and saying OMG OMG IM BEING NERFZORED!!! What you people fail to see is that these changes are not happening inside a vacuum. YOUR CLASS IS NOT THE ONLY ONE BEING CHANGED. If your heals were not nerfed, you would be OVERPOWERED because of the DPS nerf to other classes. After these changes, you will live longer as it is, just because you have more effective HPs. If you look at the heal changes on their own, then yes it's a nerf. When you stop the whining for a second and look at the whole picture though, it's not a nerf, it's just a change, and you are actually getting more out of this change than you are losing. FACT. Stop the whining, and THINK about the changes, you'll see that it's a good thing for your class.</blockquote>How much did you actually read before going off on this diatribe? And ummmm, you do realize not all classes are losing dps, right? With resists being fixed, casters are actually going to be doing far more dps (as it SHOULD be). I however have NOT said that heals shouldn't be reduced. In fact I have said that druids (and I PLAY a warden) need toning down. What I HAVE said is that everyone rags taht druids are overpowered yet the heal nerf hits them less than shamans and that is the TRUTH because of the nature of the heals. MY suggestion was giving shaman aa focus (note, that doesnt' say not to reduce heals).Before you accuse everyone of whining and complaining, you should read what is actually written.Edit to add: I really don't think that 1v1 vs certain classes really says so much about other classes just because they both happen to heal. I have said that I don't really think there's a need for a heal nerf, but I will roll with whatever happens. However, there already is very much a class disparity between druids and clerics/shamans -- with druids being the most versatile of healers with the most utility as well. That is ok, I choose to play a defiler over a warden because I enjoy the defiler class a lot more -- it's a challenge to play the class well, and I love that. I don't want shamans to be more like druids, I dont' want to be unkillable in groups. I do want people to realize that raw numbers isn't the whole story when it comes to pvp healing. Since druids just are able to get more heals off with fewer interrupts due to their higher focus and faster casting heals, a 10% nerf across the board hits the other healer classes a bit harder and should be looked at. What is so difficult about that?

Eluzay

06-23-2007, 03:12 AM

<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote>Narl@Nagafen wrote: Healers= group support. Period. No DPS, but to kill a healer should be nigh very difficult, to say the least... toe to toe, or from a distance. dont' expect a preist to kill you, but you shouldn't be able to kill them. </blockquote> im sorry, what game are you playing? have you played or fought against a fury in any tier?

tiredang

06-23-2007, 10:47 AM

Ssslick@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote>Narl@Nagafen wrote: Healers= group support. Period. No DPS, but to kill a healer should be nigh very difficult, to say the least... toe to toe, or from a distance. dont' expect a preist to kill you, but you shouldn't be able to kill them. </blockquote> im sorry, what game are you playing? have you played or fought against a fury in any tier? </blockquote> Yes, you're right! Since furies have the ability to pvp solo, defilers DO need a heal nerf. Silly me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Actually, I don't care at this point what they do to heals -- things hopefully will be adjusted, and hopefully at some point non-druids will be as desireable as druids. But I get so tired of people lumping all priests together because a couple of them are very good solo pvp classes. Sony's "all healers can heal equally well" is obviously not true in pvp, but I'm hoping that they don't mess this one up.