What do we bring to a group that is preferrable to illusionists?

[Kain3]

<p>I have a coercer that isn't high end (only lvl 52 now), and I recently rolled an illusionist for the fun of it.  I got to level 10 and looked at the EoF aa's... and was floored.  Time compression and Illusory arm are simply amazing group member buffs.  From what I can tell, between those and synergism, Illusionists would almost always be preferred in a group over a coercer.</p><p> So I'm asking some high end coercers... What do we bring to a group that would make us preferrable to simply having a second Illusionist?  What is a coercer's end-game specialty?</p>

[Iggyopalus]

<p>for just pure groups, we can chain stun mobs a little better and let the tank hold agro easier with agro increaser/decreaser buffs. You can add in the coercive healing buff as well. As I see it in a regular group coercers mean a little more of a defensive group than an illusionist. Illusionists do have some very nice aa buffs though :/</p><p>almost forgot the most important buff a coercer has: Rat form.... cast on all big race plate tanks and laugh when they hate it.</p>

[Bombodale]

Coercers buff fighters/scouts better, Illus buff mages better. And in small groups (eg. 2-3), a charmed pet would increase dps by a lot more than an illu's personae. Our hate transfer/buff is great for tanks in the end-game (increases hate of tank). That's why we are more likely to be in the MT group in a raid than an Illus. (LU 36 might change this though). And if your group has wizards who manaburn, they will love us. Manaburn converts wiz mana into damage, and normally leaves a wiz out of power. Channel will restore a substantial amount of power back to the wiz. In contrast, with an Illus, the wiz would have to wait for mana to regen s-l-o-w-l-y.

[Encantador]

<p>Bomb I think you should go look at what scouts and fighters have and think about what buffs they would like. A coercer buffs SOME fighters/scouts better. Illusionists buff all mages and SOME fighters/scouts better. Don't believe me? Go ask any assassin which they would rather be in group with.</p><p> Coercers only shine in a very few types of groups in a few situations. You need a group with a healer who can barely cope, a tank struggling to hold aggro, a lowish DPS group (else mobs die too fast anyway), and a couple of rangers/monks/rogues in group. Then if the mobs can live long enough for a coercer to make a difference then they may be better than an illusionist.</p>

[chily]

<p>Even dirge and trouba love the dps from coercer. SK and Pala loves both coz they just eat power for dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... but a guard, zerker, monk and brusier maybe like Coercer more. A assassin? easy a dirge <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A brig or swash with 1h aa maybe loves a dps from coercer I don't think any tank would say OMG no not a coercer, they only maybe say no not him lol. The biggest diff is hate manipulation. Link and demenor. Even if the tank is good with hate inc and hate dec there is more dps poss from group. that deaggro from illu is a proc too you generate more hate with it then you deaggro. (hit for 500, deaggro 300 or so)</p>

[Controlor]

Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>Even dirge and trouba love the dps from coercer. SK and Pala loves both coz they just eat power for dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... but a guard, zerker, monk and brusier maybe like Coercer more. A assassin? easy a dirge <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A brig or swash with 1h aa maybe loves a dps from coercer I don't think any tank would say OMG no not a coercer, they only maybe say no not him lol. The biggest diff is hate manipulation. Link and demenor. Even if the tank is good with hate inc and hate dec there is more dps poss from group. <b> that deaggro from illu is a proc too you generate more hate with it then you deaggro. (hit for 500, deaggro 300 or so)</b></p></blockquote>Um no... Proc for 400-500 deagro for 550 - 650... It is disbuted on the forums whether if the proc crits then the deagro would crit as wel.... heck been disputed whether agro/deagro can crit in the first place (I dont see why it cant but /shrug). In essence tho it is a free dmg spell. The deagro out weighs the agro but not by a lot.

[noobslayer]

<p>How can I say this...</p><p>From first appearances Coercer definately got the stick up the butt on their class tree.</p><p>Time Compression is probably the most looked at ability here, and mostly because it directly effects DPS.  Most caster don't have the nice options of getting nearly 100% spell haste and when they get the small 25% TC gives it reminds them of the first time they had sex, not to mention the 10% recast reduction which can be killer when stacked with a certain cloak and ring. </p><p>The double attack they can spec too is loved too, and kinda negates much of our wonderful DPS buff since now illusionist are boosting both haste and dps in a way.</p><p>Let me put it in a different light though.</p><p>Thought Snap...encounter is going to the tank you just saved the whole freakin raid because that idiot warlock wanted to parse 500 dps higher then normal.</p><p>Coercive healing...if you take STA on top of this you realize you are boosting the wards of your MT shaman (and yes I know it can be cast on other healers for other effects, USUALLY the shaman is the best choice) by like 50%?  Even without STA you are still effecting a healers wards/regens/reactives by more then them upgrading to a master spell.</p><p>Tashiana...in those more and more common situations where half your freakin spells are getting resisted...this heavy debuff will make most of your spells land, it really should last longer (complain on this until they increase its duration) I really feel this is a poor choice unless you are a soloer.</p><p>Manaward...now the ward may seem small, and maybe it SHOULD be boosted up a bit, but this damned thing can be a true saver on encounters where the mob consistently drains mana, the only thing that makes this useful is its 10 second recast.  With such a quick recast you just keep putting it back up.</p><p>Ok now look at those abilities, use your imagination and thing of the ways all of those can be manipulated in different situations.</p><p> I will give you this, if you are not a fast thinker and reactor go with the illusionist, it always has been the easy way, but the coercer is definately the more powerful way.  The uses of the illusionist are obvious and easy, the coercer...not so much.</p><p>With the direction EoF took the coercer class, you really want one in the raid for the MT group, and really do you seriously want to compete with another coercer?  </p>

[Rahatmattata]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't thought snap force the mob to target a random fighter in your group? If so, that's hardly going to save the raid and likely just to get the monk or whatever you're grouped with killed before it goes and 2 shots whoever the mob was [Removed for Content] at before. Unless the illusionist is in the MT group or I'm just completly freekin wrong about how the spell works.

[Kardg]

<p>If your not in the MT group Thought Snap is almost useless on a raid. Of our three Coercer's I'm most usually in the MT group with typically a Templar, Mystic, Berzerker/Guardian, Dirge, Assasin, Coercer (me). I've never run any raid where the MT group had two fighter classes in it. If anyone raid wide pulls agro I just TS the encounter and boom its all back on the tank for 10 seconds; which is usually long enough for him to regain agro over the encounter. In rare cases the tank looses agro its usually very brief because someone is firing before the assist call.</p><p> We've got so much hate stacked up on the tank it's very hard for him to loose it. In MMIS the other night the tank got charmed because of an add while pulling the gargoyle named and I just snapped it all to him and pulled the raid back from a wipe as the named pathed for the casters once the tank was charmed.</p><p> Another alternative say if the tank goes down, once he's back up I'll amnesia the mob, then thought snap once hate buffs are back up and we're back in business as if he never went down. Toss up mana cloak on him and his power regens to full and everyone forgets the tank went down. </p>

[noobslayer]

<p>Thought snap is a little buggy but its usually bugs in your favor. </p><p> To answer your question though yes it targets a random fighter, but if you happen to be in a dps group its still better for the mobs to go after the monk/bruiser then the healers, and really a brawler should be pulling the mobs back to the tank anyway, make sure that if you are not in the main tank group that you dont cast it before the MT coercer.  A current bug with the spell is sometimes if a 2nd coercer casts it, the 7 seconds for his thought snap will be added to the one currently on the mob so if you cast it before the MT coercer and he then casts it, it will be on the fighter in your group for a good little bit.</p><p>Any decent tank should be able to grab aggro back in seven seconds unless you have some really good DPS that want to be pricks.</p><p>Any decently formed raid takes ALL abilities into consideration when the groups are formed</p>

[noobslayer]

<cite>Kardgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If your not in the MT group Thought Snap is almost useless on a raid. Of our three Coercer's I'm most usually in the MT group with typically a Templar, Mystic, Berzerker/Guardian, Dirge, Assasin, Coercer (me). I've never run any raid where the MT group had two fighter classes in it. If anyone raid wide pulls agro I just TS the encounter and boom its all back on the tank for 10 seconds; which is usually long enough for him to regain agro over the encounter. In rare cases the tank looses agro its usually very brief because someone is firing before the assist call.</p><p> We've got so much hate stacked up on the tank it's very hard for him to loose it. In MMIS the other night the tank got charmed because of an add while pulling the gargoyle named and I just snapped it all to him and pulled the raid back from a wipe as the named pathed for the casters once the tank was charmed.</p><p> Another alternative say if the tank goes down, once he's back up I'll amnesia the mob, then thought snap once hate buffs are back up and we're back in business as if he never went down. Toss up mana cloak on him and his power regens to full and everyone forgets the tank went down. </p></blockquote><p>I really am not a fan of two tanks in the MT group, however....</p><p> There are some valid and strong strats that use two tanks in the MT group though most strats I have been around lately haven't used them.  One of the best is to add a Paladin to the MT group, this is good if your MT is not up to par on equipment, or your healers are weak for one reason or another, a good Paladin can parse EXTREMELY high on the heal parser besides the added buffs and the benefit of having a 2nd tank in the group which should have your strongest healers.</p>

[Aranieq]

<b>Group:</b> <div align="left">hate buff <u>Chain stuns</u> (no one does it like a coercer) dps mod (scouts, fighters) coercer makes anyone able to tank via hate control or stun power, thought snap </div> <b>end-game: (high raiding and up-- "end-game" would be little restrictive)</b> <u>Hate buff </u> harm link - cross raid (DE-AGGRO) Stuns (2 group stuns for hard ae pulls and others) MT group prefers dps mod to haste, most tanks do as well because of riposte DPS Mod - all melee love dps <u>Coersive healing</u>- defiler/mystic <u>Throughtsnap </u>- tricky pulls, pet pulls, loss of aggro etc "guarantees" aggro. Mem-wipe - small role but effective for wipe issues (not often called to raid for this ability alone) <u>Channel</u> - MT group it can be a life saver for long fights Coercer plays a large role in hate management. they kind of play the catcher in baseball, throwing in stuns or aggro mods when there is aggro loss etc (even when they dps well)- they have a good veiw and understanding of the over-all aggro levels/losses of the raid.

[iceriven2]

My coercer is only an alt and it has only raided labs but from my experience with it and watching our guilds main coercer is that thought snap forces the mob onto any random fighter in grp.  I honestly don't rmember the discription but from what i have seen is that in raids its always goes to  the MT or the fighter giving his/her mit that gets the mob when this spell is used.  But then again it could be that we been  extrememly lucky.

[Controlor]

<cite>iceriven2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My coercer is only an alt and it has only raided labs but from my experience with it and watching our guilds main coercer is that thought snap forces the mob onto any random fighter in grp.  I honestly don't rmember the discription but from what i have seen is that in raids its always goes to  the MT or the fighter giving his/her mit that gets the mob when this spell is used.  But then again it could be that we been  extrememly lucky.</blockquote>Assuming the coercer is in the MT group.... and the 2nd fighter (guessing crusader) is also in the MT group. Then that is how it will work. If the coercer is just in the MT group and there is no other fighter then thought snap will ALWAYS give to the MT. It takes in consideration the current group the coercer is in. NOT the entire raid. So only 1 fighter in group and it randomly goes to any fighter in group then it will always randomly go to the MT (as its the only choice). <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> good aa tho.

[Mr. Dawki]

Kain3 wrote: <blockquote><p> So I'm asking some high end coercers... What do we bring to a group that would make us preferrable to simply having a second Illusionist?  What is a coercer's end-game specialty?</p></blockquote><p> 1) They have mem wipe, that can save your raide at the cost of the coercers life, if no one screws it up which never works as planed</p><p>2)</p><p>and........thats it</p><p>everything else a coercer can do another class can do alomst as good if not better and bring more to the table</p>

[Controlor]

Mr. Dawkins wrote: <blockquote>Kain3 wrote: <blockquote><p> So I'm asking some high end coercers... What do we bring to a group that would make us preferrable to simply having a second Illusionist?  What is a coercer's end-game specialty?</p></blockquote><p> 1) They have mem wipe, that can save your raide at the cost of the coercers life, if no one screws it up which never works as planed</p><p>2)</p><p>and........thats it</p><p>everything else a coercer can do another class can do alomst as good if not better and bring more to the table</p></blockquote>Thats a bit under exagerated. You have Thought Snap and Coercive Healing also. Trying to think of other unique spells for raids you got that others dont have <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . OOH channel. Thats all i can think of.

[chily]

<p>Hate inc, Hate dec, dps buff, power feeding, a fast manaflow and so on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Controlor]

Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>Hate inc, Hate dec, dps buff, power feeding, a fast manaflow and so on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I was mearly commenting on coercer specific buffs that no one else could do (not just illys). Hate inc you can also get from a dirge, hate dec troubs can do, dps from a dirge zerker or bruiser, pr feeding illys have that also, but i will give you the mana flow.

[Kardg]

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>Hate inc, Hate dec, dps buff, power feeding, a fast manaflow and so on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I was mearly commenting on coercer specific buffs that no one else could do (not just illys). Hate inc you can also get from a dirge, hate dec troubs can do, dps from a dirge zerker or bruiser, pr feeding illys have that also, but i will give you the mana flow. </blockquote> Mana Flow is an Enchanter AA so both have it. Mana Cloak (Bloodlines), Channel(Ancient), Thought (Coercer AA) Snap & Amnesia (Ancient). That's it.

[Rarlin]

<cite>Kardgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>Hate inc, Hate dec, dps buff, power feeding, a fast manaflow and so on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I was mearly commenting on coercer specific buffs that no one else could do (not just illys). Hate inc you can also get from a dirge, hate dec troubs can do, dps from a dirge zerker or bruiser, pr feeding illys have that also, but i will give you the mana flow. </blockquote> Mana Flow is an Enchanter AA so both have it. Mana Cloak (Bloodlines), Channel(Ancient), Thought (Coercer AA) Snap & Amnesia (Ancient). That's it.</blockquote> Actually, Mana Cloak can also be crossed off the list <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Controlor]

<cite>Kardgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p>Hate inc, Hate dec, dps buff, power feeding, a fast manaflow and so on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I was mearly commenting on coercer specific buffs that no one else could do (not just illys). Hate inc you can also get from a dirge, hate dec troubs can do, dps from a dirge zerker or bruiser, pr feeding illys have that also, but i will give you the mana flow. </blockquote> Mana Flow is an Enchanter AA so both have it. Mana Cloak (Bloodlines), Channel(Ancient), Thought (Coercer AA) Snap & Amnesia (Ancient). That's it.</blockquote>Yes i know they both have mana flow. I was agreeing to the "Fast Manaflow". Coercers mana flow is faster than illys with aa beefed into it. So you get to use it more often. And yes Manacloak crossed off cause both get it.

[Rarlin]

<p>OOO, don't forget our AoE Fear!  Nothing is more fun than doing an AoE fear and pulling an extra 20 encounters in a nasty instance!  I do it just to screw with the tank!  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[redde]

The fact that "someone else also has that spell" is a bad argument. It is the combination of spells that is important in many cases. There are only 6 slots in the MT group, 2 at least are reserved for healers, and one for the mt (obviously). The remaining 3 are then open to play with. Being able to get +hate gain, +heal%, +heal crit%, -hate gain, +dps, +power regen etc. etc. etc. from just one of those slots leaves the other 2 slots open for 2 more classes each with their own buffs. Suggesting that amnesia is the only ability that makes a coercer worth having over another class is ridiculous.