Seriously - how green is my grass? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Siphar

06-16-2007, 06:06 PM

I can only be talking about enchanters - Coercers in particular (T7)If i had to genetically engineer the most pathetic and weak class - i would succeed by creating a coercer. They are group based utility classes, who do well in PvE but fail miserably in any form of PvP.Imagine a class that has less DPS than a defiler, no heal and no class defining spells i.e. control spells for coercer = coercerProblem number 1: Pets do not scale to your level, so 99% of the time you don't get a pet and therefore no dpsSolution: Scale pets to the level of the coercer and base the damage/hp off the level charm spell i.e. M1 etc. EDIT: If you will not allow scalable pets, then atleast let us drag them through zones.Problem number 2: All control spells carry immunity, therefore you can only chain control someone long enough to do well.. nothing, because of problem number 1, and secondly because the coercer has no DPS spells, only reactivesSolution: For enchanters, get rid of the immunity on all spells except mez and allow the coercer/illusionist to chain then as much as needed based on the foe resists.Problem number 3: Bards can charm better than the master of the mind (coercer) - Fact. Even though the charm spell by coercer is a long cast time ~5 secs, it will not work in PvP? why? Solution: Make charm useful and effective in PvP but make the max duration like 30 secs. Lower the cast time when using in PvP to say ~2 secs or allow us to get aa for it. EDIT: When a PC is charmed in PvP, the coercer cannot instruct that PC to attack a NPC or mob, only other PC's. Also, can we please have possession working in PvP? Again for limited duration, the PC under the possession spell cannot attack NPC/mobs, only other PC's.Problem number 4: The damage a coercer does is reactive therefore if someone doesn't want to fight you, basically you can do nothing about it.Solution: Give the coercers much better dots and add some damage to their dd's. Currently dots hit for ~150-200 (PvP) damage every 6 seconds which frankly is a joke.Problem Number 5: The earring wich procs a +9800 resist vs mental. Haven't enchanters got enough problems?Solution: Remove the effect or lower it to around 1-2k vs mental.Problem number 6: Spell resistsSolution: Hopefully GU 36Problem number 7: Power drains are a joke. They hit for 52 every 6 secs (lvl 59- adp3) and no i'm not joking. For someone who has around 6k power, how long is the fight supposed to last for my drains to be effective. The illusionist get DD based power drain for the same amount over the whole dot, that's right, again you read correctly, the same amount instantly that the coercer has to wait ~24 seconds for. insane.Solution: Give the coercer (and illusionist) a DD based power drain spell line on a ~3 min timer which does significant damage to power, say ~4-5k in PvP for T7. Much in the same way Harm touch works for SK. Put an aa in there to make it regen the coercer/illusionist power by a % (same as HT aa). If classes like assassin, ranger, Sk and wizards get massive DD's for life? why doesn't the coercer (and illusionist) get the same for power?Also make the coercer dot drains far more potent, hitting for more each tick and make it every second instead of each tick (6 seconds). Similar to the fury spout line perhaps.Try walking in the shoes of a coercer for a week on PvP, as a solo or in a group. Then come back and re-read some of the class balancing posts being written by some classes. I am sure you will agree that although some classes are slightly unbalanced, the coercer class is useless - literally.

Tatate

06-16-2007, 06:18 PM

I understand how you feel, I know a level 70 Coercer. First of all, Coercers need to have either a) their power drain spells converted to direct power drain in PvP or b) shorten the duration of the ticks of the power drains dramatically in PvP, to 1 second or even less. Another thing SOE NEEDS to look at is the Illusionist, their replica in particular. If an Illusionist has a M1 replica, the pet casts at M1 effectiveness. Now, paired with their replica the Illusionist can easily drain someone's power to almost nothing within seconds. This replica, IMHO, needs to be looked at, and at the least the Illusionist's replica should lose it's power drain abilities in PvP.

D-DevilK

06-16-2007, 06:31 PM

My 28 Fully Mastered Coercer owns face. If you don't like rap music, mute your speakers. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw</a> However, I see where you are coming from, but if you have massively powerful dots, AND nice reactives, with pets that scale to your level, you can charm someone and force them to attack the nearest heroic, or hell, a red con of your team, then we are driving at overpoweredness. Somethings should be fixed for endgame PvP but you cannot have the game tailored to you.

Siphar

06-16-2007, 06:44 PM

Guthix@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>My 28 Fully Mastered Coercer owns face. If you don't like rap music, mute your speakers. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw</a> However, I see where you are coming from, but if you have massively powerful dots, AND nice reactives, with pets that scale to your level, you can charm someone and force them to attack the nearest heroic, or hell, a red con of your team, then we are driving at overpoweredness. Somethings should be fixed for endgame PvP but you cannot have the game tailored to you. </blockquote>Firstly lvl 28 is nothing like T7 at all. Nothing, not even close.The charm can be modifed so the charmed PC cannot be instructed to attack NPC's, only other PC.The changes i suggested were in no way tailored to me. They are for making the class somewhat playable at T7, because if you ever get there - even you will struggle against green con rangers and dare i say it... BOTS. /cryOne of the main probloems is that the coercer damage is reactive based, so anything that can kill the coercer in 4 or less hits can kill the coercer every time. The spell couter aa in the str line btw only works for profession/special skills only and not generalised spells.

Netzoko

06-16-2007, 06:59 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guthix@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>My 28 Fully Mastered Coercer owns face. If you don't like rap music, mute your speakers. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw</a> However, I see where you are coming from, but if you have massively powerful dots, AND nice reactives, with pets that scale to your level, you can charm someone and force them to attack the nearest heroic, or hell, a red con of your team, then we are driving at overpoweredness. Somethings should be fixed for endgame PvP but you cannot have the game tailored to you. </blockquote>Firstly lvl 28 is nothing like T7 at all. Nothing, not even close.The charm can be modifed so the charmed PC cannot be instructed to attack NPC's, only other PC.The changes i suggested were in no way tailored to me. They are for making the class somewhat playable at T7, because if you ever get there - even you will struggle against green con rangers and dare i say it... BOTS. /cryOne of the main probloems is that the coercer damage is reactive based, so anything that can kill the coercer in 4 or less hits can kill the coercer every time. The spell couter aa in the str line btw only works for profession/special skills only and not generalised spells. </blockquote>I do agree with what you're saying, enchanters need a major boost. But, how is T7 different than the rest for PvP? What changes? You still get better spells.

Siphar

06-16-2007, 07:11 PM

Reasons why T7 is different to other tiers: -<ol><li>Everyone is locked at 70, so have far more time to acquire masters, gear and AA. Therefore the average T7 player is better equiped generally.</li><li>The T7 PvP'er in general have had a lot more practise and generally are better.</li><li>Every class has access to all their class defining abilities and spells, which in many cases can make a big difference.</li></ol>Need more reasons?

Siphar

06-16-2007, 09:12 PM

I would welcome any thoughts from the developers as to any potential ideas they would consider to boosting enchanters

Netzoko

06-16-2007, 11:58 PM

Sorry, but could you explain how the immunity timer works? I'm a new illusionist on a PvP server and was wondering which spells share the timer and how long it is...

Norrsken

06-17-2007, 06:00 AM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can only be talking about enchanters - Coercers in particular (T7)If i had to genetically engineer the most pathetic and weak class - i would succeed by creating a coercer. They are group based utility classes, who do well in PvE but fail miserably in any form of PvP.Imagine a class that has less DPS than a defiler, no heal and no class defining spells i.e. control spells for coercer = coercerProblem number 1: Pets do not scale to your level, so 99% of the time you don't get a pet and therefore no dpsSolution: Scale pets to the level of the coercer and base the damage/hp off the level charm spell i.e. M1 etc.Problem number 2: All control spells carry immunity, therefore you can only chain control someone long enough to do well.. nothing, because of problem number 1, and secondly because the coercer has no DPS spells, only reactivesSolution: For enchanters, get rid of the immunity on all spells except mez and allow the coercer/illusionist to chain then as much as needed based on the foe resists.Problem number 3: Bards can charm better than the master of the mind (coercer) - Fact. Even though the charm spell by coercer is a long cast time ~5 secs, it will not work in PvP? why? Solution: Make charm useful and effective in PvP but make the max duration like 30 secs. Lower the cast time when using in PvP to say ~2 secs or allow us to get aa for it. EDIT: When a PC is charmed in PvP, the coercer cannot instruct that PC to attack a NPC or mob, only other PC's. Also, can we please have possession working in PvP? Again for limited duration, the PC under the possession spell cannot attack NPC/mobs, only other PC's.Problem number 4: The damage a coercer does is reactive therefore if someone doesn't want to fight you, basically you can do nothing about it.Solution: Give the coercers much better dots and add some damage to their dd's. Currently dots hit for ~150-200 (PvP) damage every 6 seconds which frankly is a joke.Problem Number 5: The earring wich procs a +9800 resist vs mental. Haven't enchanters got enough problems?Solution: Remove the effect or lower it to around 1-2k vs mental.Problem number 6: Spell resistsSolution: Hopefully GU 36Problem number 7: Power drains are a joke. They hit for 52 every 6 secs (lvl 59- adp3) and no i'm not joking. For someone who has around 6k power, how long is the fight supposed to last for my drains to be effective. The illusionist get DD based power drain for the same amount over the whole dot, that's right, again you read correctly, the same amount instantly that the coercer has to wait ~24 seconds for. insane.Solution: Give the coercer (and illusionist) a DD based power drain spell line on a ~3 min timer which does significant damage to power, say ~4-5k in PvP for T7. Much in the same way Harm touch works for SK. Put an aa in there to make it regen the coercer/illusionist power by a % (same as HT aa). If classes like assassin, ranger, Sk and wizards get massive DD's for life? why doesn't the coercer (and illusionist) get the same for power?Also make the coercer dot drains far more potent, hitting for more each tick and make it every second instead of each tick (6 seconds). Similar to the fury spout line perhaps.Try walking in the shoes of a coercer for a week on PvP, as a solo or in a group. Then come back and re-read some of the class balancing posts being written by some classes. I am sure you will agree that although some classes are slightly unbalanced, the coercer class is useless - literally.</blockquote>solution 1 is bad. You can have lower level pets, true. On the flipside, you can have higher level pets. Quite a few coercers actually grab a high yellow mob as a pet to get a bit extra oomph, an its quite a bit if you grab a yellow fury pet and go after blue mobs. Your pet will never ever die. And on a second note, I like bringing orange mobs to pvp fights. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sometimes heroics. I wouldnt really like to have pets nerfed to my own level. the rest of it I think is very sound.

Amphibia

06-17-2007, 09:29 AM

Zatia@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>I understand how you feel, I know a level 70 Coercer. First of all, Coercers need to have either a) their power drain spells converted to direct power drain in PvP or b) shorten the duration of the ticks of the power drains dramatically in PvP, to 1 second or even less. Another thing SOE NEEDS to look at is the Illusionist, their replica in particular. If an Illusionist has a M1 replica, the pet casts at M1 effectiveness. Now, paired with their replica the Illusionist can easily drain someone's power to almost nothing within seconds. This replica, IMHO, needs to be looked at, and at the least the Illusionist's replica should lose it's power drain abilities in PvP.</blockquote> Well, not all illusionists have a master 1 version of that thing. Actually, I bet most don't as it is an extremely rare master. As rare as your Domination M1... how many times do you see that on the broker to a price most players can afford? Exactly. Secondly, your information is also incorrect. I did a little testing just to make sure. My pet is adept 3 quality, and it had time compression on it. My guildie had 6,2k power. Here is the result: Test 1, pet only: Lasted a little more than 1 minute - I withdrew my pet when my guildie was in the orange on health. He still had most of his power left at this point. Test 2: This time I combined the pet's powerdrain with my own and drained my guildie empty in 1 minute and 7 seconds. I have the logs on this if you want to see them. Just a few seconds, eh? Took me more than a minute to drain someone with both my pet and my own powerdrain. An average PvP fight where healing is not involved doesn't last that long. Then a reply to the OP: As for the suggestion to remove immunity on stuns and stifles: I don't think that is a good idea. It would make all classes that use these control effects way too powerful.

Siphar

06-17-2007, 10:29 AM

<cite>Netzoko wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, but could you explain how the immunity timer works? I'm a new illusionist on a PvP server and was wondering which spells share the timer and how long it is... </blockquote>Hard to test accuratley on PvP because combat isn't exactly controllable. However the immunity should be double the duraton of the spell. Whether that is double the entire duration or double the duration which the PC had the spell active I cannot tell for sure. Mainly because the fight is usually over within 20-30 seconds.If the immunity timers stay, then why not consider removing the PvP timer on the spells and make them all remain at their PvE durations.

Siphar

06-17-2007, 10:33 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote> Then a reply to the OP: As for the suggestion to remove immunity on stuns and stifles: I don't think that is a good idea. It would make all classes that use these control effects way too powerful. </blockquote>The suggestions i made were for enchanters only, bards and other mez/controllable classes not included. I made an edit so that the regualr "mez" would still have immunity (although the duration could be tweaked?).The stun, stifle and daze lines are already on very short timers for PvP.As i mentioned before, if you can kill the coercer in under 4 hits, you have no way to lose.The fury pets as mentioned earlier are great as are wizard type pets, but rarely do you find them in accessible places. The pet is also lost when you die.

tass

06-17-2007, 04:59 PM

well technically the mezzers aren't supposed to be able to do any main kind of dmg as their main class function is basically crowd control and such. Though I do agree they are found wanting in any type of pvp fight unless they have a sound grp to do their dmg for them.

Siphar

06-17-2007, 06:10 PM

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>well technically the mezzers aren't supposed to be able to do any main kind of dmg as their main class function is basically crowd control and such. Though I do agree they are found wanting in any type of pvp fight unless they have a sound grp to do their dmg for them.</blockquote>Firstly, "main kind of damage"? have you ever parsed a coercer? Their DPS without a pet is a joke in PvE, nevermind in PvP where it is nerfed. You are maybe thinking of the potential pet the coercer can wield and coerce around, which casts thundereous bolts of lightning and slays random mobs effortlessly with its gigantic flaming axe? Well frankly, these pets do not exist, and it it very rare for a coercer to find any pet worth taking 3 concentration slots for.. In fact i can only think of the corpse candle in the Bonemire as a worthwhile pet, 99% of the others are worthless.Secondly, the coercer (and illusionist i assume) has no worthwhile PvP crowd control - that is the point.Example: The coercer group based stun lasts for 4 seconds in PvP assuming it is not resisted.. So what is the purpose of the coercer apart from utility which various other classes provide in other ways, but also have the potential to DPS or at least do their class defining abilities.Example: Furies can heal and DPS as well as providing useful utility to the group. Heck even a warden can use genesis and constantly heal the MT every 2 seconds (~400), AND boost his power by over 30/tick (almost comparable to the coercer), and the warden has nice DPS (esp. for a healer) and has some of the most power efficient heals in the game. INSANEThat's not to say these classes are over powered, just they provide utility and some other forms of usefulness, like heals, dps, etc.The coercer cannot even achieve their class defining abilities, namely to control the mind and affect power. Their power drain is laughable (literally) and they have no form of effective PvP charm.There is absolutely no reason what so ever why the coercer (and illusionist to some extent) should not be completely re-vamped for PvP. My suggestions are clear in my original post.Please feel free to add your comments and suggest your own solutions to the obvious problems that the coercer (and illusionist) classes have in PvP.

Netzoko

06-17-2007, 11:20 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The coercer cannot even achieve their class defining abilities</blockquote> That nailed it. The one reason to even use an enchanter is non-existent in PvP.

Mildavyn

06-18-2007, 05:38 AM

Ok, the charm thing really sucks for the coercers, but other than that... L2P*IF* you are in a group (and it is NOT required to PVP, talk to Exur, he solos PvP all the time) your stuns are extremely useful. Not to mention the ability to mez the other group's tank/healer/DPS (have to have a group with enough brain cells to rub together though) The power drains ARE useful in group v group PvP... eventually one of the healers is going to run out of power... with those power drains, it shouldn't be yours.For solo PvP: I can't tell you the names on the spells because I've never played one, however I have fought a fair few. Despotic mind (the only one i know the name for) is nisane. 400% of power used comes off health? Chuck that on a healer and watch them heal themselves to death. Also, the few fights where I have been up against a coercer usually had me sitting there drooling while the coercer killed me. Slowly, but i still died.At the end of the day though, it'll be resists that kill a coercer (in my experience anyways. it's only when i can reflect or resist something that i actually get to fight) so you'll need to increase your casting skills.

Siphar

06-18-2007, 10:14 AM

I appreciate your comments, but still feel the numbers talk for themselves, and i'm refering to the dot damage and power drain values per tick.My point has never been that coercers cannot solo/grp, sure they have some potential, however it is that they are extremely un-balanced compared to the other classes.Even you admit that they have no class defining abilities, imagine if the ranger couldn't range attack usinga bow? there would be 500 pages of ranger whines instead of the current ~9 about the GU 36 nerfs.The only difference is the population difference between rangers and coercers (now this was just an example), and the population difference is because everyone knows the coercer (and illusionist to some extent) are extremely un-balanced.Knowing that is no reason to ignore them though.... or simply cast them away as a pointless class in PvP, which is where they currently are. Sure the developers are trying to make the fights last longer by reducing damage by the dps classes, but how mch is this really going to affect the time of a fight? probably by a few seconds at most...

Siphar

06-18-2007, 10:17 AM

Instead of the developers nerfing one of the only useful abilities the coercer had, why not revamp and balance the coercer to a playable and effective PvP class?

Balrok

06-18-2007, 10:57 AM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Problem number 3: Bards can charm better than the master of the mind (coercer) - Fact. Even though the charm spell by coercer is a long cast time ~5 secs, it will not work in PvP? why? Problem Number 5: The earring wich procs a +9800 resist vs mental. Haven't enchanters got enough problems?Problem number 6: Spell resistsProblem number 7: Power drains are a joke. They hit for 52 every 6 secs (lvl 59- adp3) and no i'm not joking. For someone who has around 6k power, how long is the fight supposed to last for my drains to be effective. The illusionist get DD based power drain for the same amount over the whole dot, that's right, again you read correctly, the same amount instantly that the coercer has to wait ~24 seconds for. insane.</blockquote>These are the ones I agree with, but live with.Didn't see this thread when I posted a vid last night.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367369" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=367369</a>EnjoyExur - 70 CoercerVenekor

Splintered

06-18-2007, 11:12 AM

I have seen coercers played properly, and honestly have to say with the upcoming changes in LU 36 everything should be ok. Chain casting control spells would be extremely overpowering. - Yes, coercers do low direct damage, but you make it sound as if there reactive impairments do little, which is far from the truth. - The coercer has 4 power drains that I can think of off the top of my head, and there certainly not every 6 seconds. Your two main power drains I believe are every .8 seconds in pvp for alot more then 52. Honestly, with the upcoming changes, learn to make the best of the your class.

Gapik

06-19-2007, 10:53 AM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Problem number 7: Power drains are a joke. They hit for 52 every 6 secs (lvl 59- adp3) and no i'm not joking. For someone who has around 6k power, how long is the fight supposed to last for my drains to be effective. The illusionist get DD based power drain for the same amount over the whole dot, that's right, again you read correctly, the same amount instantly that the coercer has to wait ~24 seconds for. insane. Solution: Give the coercer (and illusionist) a DD based power drain spell line on a ~3 min timer which does significant damage to power, say ~4-5k in PvP for T7. Much in the same way Harm touch works for SK. Put an aa in there to make it regen the coercer/illusionist power by a % (same as HT aa). If classes like assassin, ranger, Sk and wizards get massive DD's for life? why doesn't the coercer (and illusionist) get the same for power?Also make the coercer dot drains far more potent, hitting for more each tick and make it every second instead of each tick (6 seconds). Similar to the fury spout line perhaps.Try walking in the shoes of a coercer for a week on PvP, as a solo or in a group. Then come back and re-read some of the class balancing posts being written by some classes. I am sure you will agree that although some classes are slightly unbalanced, the coercer class is useless - literally.</blockquote>Wow that sounds like a slightley overpowered ability! 4-5k power drain on a 3 min timer would allow you to walk up to any solo charachter and remove all (or close) there power every 3 minutes.

greploco

06-19-2007, 11:05 AM

coercer grass is not green at all, it's brown and dyingplaying a coercer is a huge huge challenge, charm break alone is a massive massive disability, especially when leveling up before the coercer has master charm and enough AA points to fill out the trees that increase subjugationsomeone put it very very well in saying "The coercer cannot even achieve their class defining abilities"I'm not really sure why coercer is included in the nerf list, ESPECIALLY on damagewhat? what? you say that since others are being nerfed in pvp coercers need to be nerfed too? unless the nerfs are totally massive I doubt it. most of coercer spells are super weak dots and energy drains. 9 times out of 10 someone has closed range and become immune to all of the coercers cc and killed the coercer before those spells have any posotive effect

Yage

06-19-2007, 11:40 AM

coercer and illusionist are 2 of the hardestest so most fun classes to play because of that. They have to be played almost perfectly to be effective. Miss any combo or spec combo, not so good. and resists make this really hard to accomplish!! In groups, i always die first and lots of times was the only one in my group to die. also in a group, all my control spells are usless because of immunity, aoes and dots, so i buff bot and dps with all dots. Immunity is twice the duration of the spells duration regardless of how long it was actually one the person. Solo i can possibly kill a trio and keep them locked down if i pay attention to what i am doing. A duo is Very possible. Solo my chances with you are 50-50 unless you are a bruiser then i lose, or if you are a caster i win. If played right coercers are nasty. I have seen some nasty coercers! but they are few and far between! Resists are key and just blow big donkey nuts!!! getting that extra tick on your reactives looked like an amazing aa line!!! Power drain... yeah it takes me forever even when i HAD a master 1 pet /cry. I posted a video one time against a templar... it is sped up 4x on the video because it was such a long fight, and still takes me forever to drain his power and lasts like 30 secs at 4x... I am never in a fight i win in under 30 secs, so all my long duration dots go off, even my long dot power drain, i usually recast it twice. And the recast on both my dd power drains is 45 secs. I was a coercer for 2 days... if i had not had so much invested in illusionist... i would have been nastier as a coercer than i am as an illy, i don't remember the spells but i saw them, and i didn't see them all. and i am not too shabby for an illy, and i pretty much only solo... and solo in freeport <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I had 25-28 masters when i exiled... Now I am back in Qeynos and I have 10 and still role with adept 1s and app2s BUT pvp gear makes it worth it and i am doing just as good if not better with crap spells and great pvp gear as i was with masters and crap gear. So PVP gear is greater than anything else so just get out there and kill people and get it!!!

Marduk

06-19-2007, 12:01 PM

omg. coercer has awesome damage in pvp. only ONE spell ("auspex" for melee and "spell scourge" for caster's) done ~3-4k. and if u have m1 charm and charm right mob it can nuke for 2-3k every 3-7 sec... and u have 16 sec stifle, stuns, mez, awesome root.... u just dont know how to play ur own class...

Siphar

06-19-2007, 12:44 PM

<cite>Marduk wrote:</cite><blockquote>omg. coercer has awesome damage in pvp. only ONE spell ("auspex" for melee and "spell scourge" for caster's) done ~3-4k. and if u have m1 charm and charm right mob it can nuke for 2-3k every 3-7 sec... and u have 16 sec stifle, stuns, mez, awesome root.... u just dont know how to play ur own class... </blockquote>After all the thoughtful and useful posts from the good enchanters in PvP, we get a post like this. pathetic..."omg. coercer has awesome damage in pvp"Are you on drugs? Do you know what an enchanter is?"only ONE spell ("auspex" for melee and "spell scourge" for caster's) done ~3-4k"The spells reactive damage is ~300-600 in PvP at T7 on a typical 5.5-9k HP PC for ~5 hits depending on AA = ~3000 total damage ~30-60% of the enemy PC HP. This is ofcourse assuming you get the spells casted intime, they are not resisted and if they are not dis-spelled. After the spell is done. The coercer now dies in 90% of cases."if u have m1 charm and charm right mob it can nuke for 2-3k every 3-7 sec"Corpse candle maybe? only available in Bonemire. No other pet does this damage in PvP in the game as far as i know. The charmed pet can be dispelled by the way. They cast every ~6 secs."and u have 16 sec stifle, stuns, mez, awesome root"Actually the mez is ~10 seconds in PvP and the stuns last for a maximum of ~6 seconds (single target) and ~4 seconds for group stun. The Stifle is similar and after each is cast the target carrys an immunity of double the duration. Sure the root is great when a warden is not in their group providing root immunity, when it is not resisted or after several pitiful dot damage ticks it breaks, again providing the target with immunity."u just dont know how to play ur own class... "I am sure you have never played a coercer/iullusionist or perhaps even know what one is. I would recommend giving your account back to your brother, or re-sell it back on VOX.

Siphar

06-19-2007, 12:58 PM

<cite>Gapik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Problem number 7: Power drains are a joke. They hit for 52 every 6 secs (lvl 59- adp3) and no i'm not joking. For someone who has around 6k power, how long is the fight supposed to last for my drains to be effective. The illusionist get DD based power drain for the same amount over the whole dot, that's right, again you read correctly, the same amount instantly that the coercer has to wait ~24 seconds for. insane. Solution: Give the coercer (and illusionist) a DD based power drain spell line on a ~3 min timer which does significant damage to power, say ~4-5k in PvP for T7. Much in the same way Harm touch works for SK. Put an aa in there to make it regen the coercer/illusionist power by a % (same as HT aa). If classes like assassin, ranger, Sk and wizards get massive DD's for life? why doesn't the coercer (and illusionist) get the same for power?Also make the coercer dot drains far more potent, hitting for more each tick and make it every second instead of each tick (6 seconds). Similar to the fury spout line perhaps.Try walking in the shoes of a coercer for a week on PvP, as a solo or in a group. Then come back and re-read some of the class balancing posts being written by some classes. I am sure you will agree that although some classes are slightly unbalanced, the coercer class is useless - literally.</blockquote>Wow that sounds like a slightley overpowered ability! 4-5k power drain on a 3 min timer would allow you to walk up to any solo charachter and remove all (or close) there power every 3 minutes. </blockquote>How about a 4k power drain every 10-15 minutes then. 3 minutes was just a suggestion.Considering most fights lasst only 3-30 seconds, why are you so worried about your power, especially considering most classes have aroun 5-7k at T7

Dasein-07

06-19-2007, 01:00 PM

This is an interesting discussion, especially since my experience verses lvl 70 Coercers/exiled Illusionists has been exactly the opposite. Perhaps it is my class, Warlock, perhaps it is the fact that those enchanters who make it to 70 are pretty [Removed for Content] good, whatever the case may be, Enchanters give me absolute fits. Unfortunately I only remember one name, Pumpkin, but over the last two weeks or so I have run into three different Enchanters who could all kill me with me getting off at most one spell in my own defense. Yes, it took them awhile and in one case the Enchanter got steamrolled by a group coming onto the scene, but in those three cases there was not a [Removed for Content] thing I could do to defend myself. Enchanters have impressed me. Given the choice of fighting a Brigand or a Coercer, I would take the Brigand.

Siphar

06-19-2007, 01:03 PM

I must admit, Illusionist > Coercer for PvPI played my Illy up to 55 before switching to coercer. I got the kills because the illy can cast mez on the run and their dd drains are dd-based and not dot based, add in a reliable pet and you have the makings of a ok class.Most of my suggestions were aimed at coercers, but some issues such as immunity should be looked at regarding both the coercer and illy.

Marduk

06-19-2007, 01:39 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am sure you have never played a coercer/iullusionist or perhaps even know what one is. I would recommend giving your account back to your brother, or re-sell it back on VOX. </blockquote> i am played illu to 40 lvl and have rank champion. this is not group rank, i got it solo. than exiled and now my coercer is 63 with destroyer, but i dont pvping too much, prefer to start on 70..

Marduk

06-19-2007, 01:54 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The charmed pet can be dispelled by the way. They cast every ~6 secs </blockquote>if you send your pet in attack and then it will be dispelled, pet continue attacking your enemy but like ^^^ heroic mob which much stronger than when it was charmed. Siphar wrote: <blockquote>How about a 4k power drain every 10-15 minutes then. 3 minutes was just a suggestion.Considering most fights lasst only 3-30 seconds, why are you so worried about your power, especially considering most classes have aroun 5-7k at T7 </blockquote>in group fights win those group which has better mana regen and if one of the healer run out of mana - battle ended. coercer - one of the better mana regen of the game and he can drain mana too! this is very very useful abilities

shagr1414

06-19-2007, 02:26 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can only be talking about enchanters - Coercers in particular (T7)If i had to genetically engineer the most pathetic and weak class - i would succeed by creating a coercer. They are group based utility classes, who do well in PvE but fail miserably in any form of PvP.Imagine a class that has less DPS than a defiler, no heal and no class defining spells i.e. control spells for coercer = coercerProblem number 1: Pets do not scale to your level, so 99% of the time you don't get a pet and therefore no dpsSolution: Scale pets to the level of the coercer and base the damage/hp off the level charm spell i.e. M1 etc.Problem number 2: All control spells carry immunity, therefore you can only chain control someone long enough to do well.. nothing, because of problem number 1, and secondly because the coercer has no DPS spells, only reactivesSolution: For enchanters, get rid of the immunity on all spells except mez and allow the coercer/illusionist to chain then as much as needed based on the foe resists.Problem number 3: Bards can charm better than the master of the mind (coercer) - Fact. Even though the charm spell by coercer is a long cast time ~5 secs, it will not work in PvP? why? Solution: Make charm useful and effective in PvP but make the max duration like 30 secs. Lower the cast time when using in PvP to say ~2 secs or allow us to get aa for it. EDIT: When a PC is charmed in PvP, the coercer cannot instruct that PC to attack a NPC or mob, only other PC's. Also, can we please have possession working in PvP? Again for limited duration, the PC under the possession spell cannot attack NPC/mobs, only other PC's.Problem number 4: The damage a coercer does is reactive therefore if someone doesn't want to fight you, basically you can do nothing about it.Solution: Give the coercers much better dots and add some damage to their dd's. Currently dots hit for ~150-200 (PvP) damage every 6 seconds which frankly is a joke.Problem Number 5: The earring wich procs a +9800 resist vs mental. Haven't enchanters got enough problems?Solution: Remove the effect or lower it to around 1-2k vs mental.Problem number 6: Spell resistsSolution: Hopefully GU 36Problem number 7: Power drains are a joke. They hit for 52 every 6 secs (lvl 59- adp3) and no i'm not joking. For someone who has around 6k power, how long is the fight supposed to last for my drains to be effective. The illusionist get DD based power drain for the same amount over the whole dot, that's right, again you read correctly, the same amount instantly that the coercer has to wait ~24 seconds for. insane.Solution: Give the coercer (and illusionist) a DD based power drain spell line on a ~3 min timer which does significant damage to power, say ~4-5k in PvP for T7. Much in the same way Harm touch works for SK. Put an aa in there to make it regen the coercer/illusionist power by a % (same as HT aa). If classes like assassin, ranger, Sk and wizards get massive DD's for life? why doesn't the coercer (and illusionist) get the same for power?Also make the coercer dot drains far more potent, hitting for more each tick and make it every second instead of each tick (6 seconds). Similar to the fury spout line perhaps.Try walking in the shoes of a coercer for a week on PvP, as a solo or in a group. Then come back and re-read some of the class balancing posts being written by some classes. I am sure you will agree that although some classes are slightly unbalanced, the coercer class is useless - literally.</blockquote>Can actually beat ya on class....necro....dead in 2seconds, no defense, fear resists are bs, root resists same. Pet's don't taunt, and the new AA line where we are supposed to be able to use the scout pet's checks isn't working at all. What good is using a pet's checks anyways if we are dead b4 they can be effective? Wizards 2 shot us, rangers = 2 seconds we dead....same with swashies, tanks do nothing but 100% stun us til we dead, and furies 1 shot us, mystics ward off everything until we out of power then melee us down like nothing. Monks perma stun and knockback, all this tranlates into is not one spell cast unless we get the jump, but even then its a resist or a partial hit. The highest hit on test ive had so far wa slightly under 900 disease dmg and that was a crit on abate life. So, what do we do now? We keep plugging away at the forums and /feedback until the devs realize this game is a melee/scout/mage with manashield, healer game and the other classes can go shove a finger up our [Removed for Content]'s and deal with it game. Sad that the devs don't give a [Removed for Content]. I was on test for 8 hours yesterday used all kinds of spec's , even went as far as to use the fabled class gear and master everything and not a thing changed. Aeralik came in and all he could say was he was still trying to tune things....Well from our perspective, you are only tuning healers and scouts, but not doing enough to make it possible for any survival over 2-4 seconds as a caster without manashield. what was the general idea the devs had when they gave the 2 highest dps mages manashield and leave the others without the ability even though we cannot burst dps at all? If they were to tune this right they would remove manashield from wiz and warlock, they get enough as it is. I fought a wizard last night that jsut allowed me to cast on him without fighting back, I got him to 5% b4 he popped up manashield then it took well over 2 minutes to burn thru it, even using lifeburn master tide, and all amster dots and abate master 2. 5%!!!! That's in no way balanced. Out of 6k+ mana i have, which i rarely drop below 60% on other classes if hell freezes over and i can actualy land and cast...now im using 98% power to drop a clothy? I don't get it...meanwhile im pretty [Removed for Content] sure most wiz/warlocks use about 5% mana to kil a necro, and im [Removed for Content] sure melee classes use a hell of a lot less. When any one or 2 classes cannot kill an oppononent on any grounds this means you've done somthing wrong devs....either fix it or remove the 2 classes from game altogether and reimburse us with a character of a different class of our choice, with the equal gear and spells. It's the only solution unless you plan on fixing the 2 classes to be well enough to at least survive 5 seconds or more in pvp.

shagr1414

06-19-2007, 02:34 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of the developers nerfing one of the only useful abilities the coercer had, why not revamp and balance the coercer to a playable and effective PvP class?</blockquote> Been asking this for weeks about necro's.....they most likely never played either class to any extent to truely test them in pvp. They need to actually log into test, create a necro or coercer, go ahead and talk to fluffy and get mastered out in some decnt gear. Sit there for hours getting ganked by every scout / monk/ wizard there to even get a clue how horrible this game can be for certain classes.

shagr1414

06-19-2007, 02:39 PM

<cite>Marduk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am sure you have never played a coercer/iullusionist or perhaps even know what one is. I would recommend giving your account back to your brother, or re-sell it back on VOX. </blockquote> i am played illu to 40 lvl and have rank champion. this is not group rank, i got it solo. than exiled and now my coercer is 63 with destroyer, but i dont pvping too much, prefer to start on 70..</blockquote>rofl lvl 40? my necro owned at 40 you nooblet. Get to 70 on the class and come post here otherwise you are simply uneducated.

Cyst

06-19-2007, 02:45 PM

A well played enchanter can beat virtually any class.

Siphar

06-20-2007, 06:25 AM

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>A well played enchanter can beat virtually any class.</blockquote>Please speak up if you have any interesting comments to make. Please remember my focus was on the coercer, not the illusionist.

Siphar

06-20-2007, 06:28 AM

<cite>Marduk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The charmed pet can be dispelled by the way. They cast every ~6 secs </blockquote>if you send your pet in attack and then it will be dispelled, pet continue attacking your enemy but like ^^^ heroic mob which much stronger than when it was charmed. Siphar wrote: <blockquote>How about a 4k power drain every 10-15 minutes then. 3 minutes was just a suggestion.Considering most fights lasst only 3-30 seconds, why are you so worried about your power, especially considering most classes have aroun 5-7k at T7 </blockquote>in group fights win those group which has better mana regen and if one of the healer run out of mana - battle ended. coercer - one of the better mana regen of the game and he can drain mana too! this is very very useful abilities </blockquote>Wasn't that hard to be constructive was it? However, using the pet tactic would be great if you weren't dead in 2-7 seconds by most scouts, who then continue to kill the ^^^. I am refering to T7 btw.I'd also like to point out in T7, most of teh action is in places like TT and at various cloud points in BS. The pets here, especially in TT are a joke.I spoke to a few of the good coercers on Venekor in the last few days, including Exur who posted that video, we have some agreement on several points and are looking forward to the changes in GU 36. Hopefully the spell resist changes will help with the initial mez.

Siphar

06-20-2007, 06:31 AM

EDIT: If you will not allow scalable pets, then atleast let us drag them through zones

Siphar

06-20-2007, 06:45 AM

<cite>shagr1414 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can actually beat ya on class....necro....dead in 2seconds, no defense, fear resists are bs, root resists same. Pet's don't taunt, and the new AA line where we are supposed to be able to use the scout pet's checks isn't working at all. What good is using a pet's checks anyways if we are dead b4 they can be effective? Wizards 2 shot us, rangers = 2 seconds we dead....same with swashies, tanks do nothing but 100% stun us til we dead, and furies 1 shot us, mystics ward off everything until we out of power then melee us down like nothing. Monks perma stun and knockback, all this tranlates into is not one spell cast unless we get the jump, but even then its a resist or a partial hit. The highest hit on test ive had so far wa slightly under 900 disease dmg and that was a crit on abate life. So, what do we do now? We keep plugging away at the forums and /feedback until the devs realize this game is a melee/scout/mage with manashield, healer game and the other classes can go shove a finger up our [I cannot control my vocabulary]'s and deal with it game. Sad that the devs don't give a [I cannot control my vocabulary]. I was on test for 8 hours yesterday used all kinds of spec's , even went as far as to use the fabled class gear and master everything and not a thing changed. Aeralik came in and all he could say was he was still trying to tune things....Well from our perspective, you are only tuning healers and scouts, but not doing enough to make it possible for any survival over 2-4 seconds as a caster without manashield. what was the general idea the devs had when they gave the 2 highest dps mages manashield and leave the others without the ability even though we cannot burst dps at all? If they were to tune this right they would remove manashield from wiz and warlock, they get enough as it is. I fought a wizard last night that jsut allowed me to cast on him without fighting back, I got him to 5% b4 he popped up manashield then it took well over 2 minutes to burn thru it, even using lifeburn master tide, and all amster dots and abate master 2. 5%!!!! That's in no way balanced. Out of 6k+ mana i have, which i rarely drop below 60% on other classes if hell freezes over and i can actualy land and cast...now im using 98% power to drop a clothy? I don't get it...meanwhile im pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure most wiz/warlocks use about 5% mana to kil a necro, and im [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure melee classes use a hell of a lot less. When any one or 2 classes cannot kill an oppononent on any grounds this means you've done somthing wrong devs....either fix it or remove the 2 classes from game altogether and reimburse us with a character of a different class of our choice, with the equal gear and spells. It's the only solution unless you plan on fixing the 2 classes to be well enough to at least survive 5 seconds or more in pvp. </blockquote>Least necros have a stable pet (a choice infact), much better dps, heals, lifeburn, and they can charm undead just as effectively as coercers.

seigwahrheit

06-20-2007, 09:09 AM

fought a few of your disease ridden kind on test server and im sure youll be happy to know they kill everyone one v one (if they are played properly) Actually that was the same pre-test with a few mezzers that everyone knows as monstrous one on one. Either your not doing something right or these individuals are just way better than you in PvP.

Eluzay

06-21-2007, 03:01 AM

Yage@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>coercer and illusionist are 2 of the hardestest so most fun classes to play because of that. They have to be played almost perfectly to be effective. Miss any combo or spec combo, not so good. and resists make this really hard to accomplish!! In groups, i always die first and lots of times was the only one in my group to die. also in a group, all my control spells are usless because of immunity, aoes and dots, so i buff bot and dps with all dots. Immunity is twice the duration of the spells duration regardless of how long it was actually one the person. Solo i can possibly kill a trio and keep them locked down if i pay attention to what i am doing. A duo is Very possible. Solo my chances with you are 50-50 unless you are a bruiser then i lose, or if you are a caster i win. If played right coercers are nasty. I have seen some nasty coercers! but they are few and far between! Resists are key and just blow big donkey nuts!!! getting that extra tick on your reactives looked like an amazing aa line!!! Power drain... yeah it takes me forever even when i HAD a master 1 pet /cry. I posted a video one time against a templar... it is sped up 4x on the video because it was such a long fight, and still takes me forever to drain his power and lasts like 30 secs at 4x... I am never in a fight i win in under 30 secs, so all my long duration dots go off, even my long dot power drain, i usually recast it twice. And the recast on both my dd power drains is 45 secs. I was a coercer for 2 days... if i had not had so much invested in illusionist... i would have been nastier as a coercer than i am as an illy, i don't remember the spells but i saw them, and i didn't see them all. and i am not too shabby for an illy, and i pretty much only solo... and solo in freeport <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I had 25-28 masters when i exiled... Now I am back in Qeynos and I have 10 and still role with adept 1s and app2s BUT pvp gear makes it worth it and i am doing just as good if not better with crap spells and great pvp gear as i was with masters and crap gear. So PVP gear is greater than anything else so just get out there and kill people and get it!!!</blockquote>I agree wholeheartedly... coercer is a very technical class, you have to do it just right, and honestly, at 56 (locked atm so i can get some aa) I can take out a 66 if the mez goes off, especially other casters. I think coercer is one of the most under-rated classes in the game in pvp, but that is mostly because there are very specific combinations that need to be executed flawlessly, but when You mez a scout, cast a few of our burns and debuffs on them and then watch them burn themselves to the ground you can only smile and laugh. Yes they have to use power for you to win. The ONLY downside that i hate about the class is that if they dont use power and just wait it out then there is literally nothnig you can do. Thank goodness there are not a lot of good coercers out there and people dont know how to deal with them. So yes there is a weak link, or there could be, or there will be when people figure it out and stop trying to use their i win buttons in the same order every time, but until then coercer is not nearly as bad as people say. I solo my coercer and she is close to a 2 to 1 kill ratio with much of that in sinking sands vs the ranger gank squads.

Tatate

06-21-2007, 03:17 AM

How about in PvP, change a Coercer's power drain to instant instead of power-over-time. A big problem solved. Something still needs to be done about the Illy pet though IMHO.

zorros

06-25-2007, 01:27 PM

This is how good coercers can be in t7http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=333578

Scatimus

06-25-2007, 02:21 PM

Guthix@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>My 28 Fully Mastered Coercer owns face. If you don't like rap music, mute your speakers. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04i02FkBeBw</a> However, I see where you are coming from, but if you have massively powerful dots, AND nice reactives, with pets that scale to your level, you can charm someone and force them to attack the nearest heroic, or hell, a red con of your team, then we are driving at overpoweredness. Somethings should be fixed for endgame PvP but you cannot have the game tailored to you. </blockquote>saying how great you are as a level locked twink is like saying how great you were in third grade. it doesnt count. -Mu

Balrok

06-25-2007, 02:56 PM

kind of feels like we have two threads going for this topic, so I'll cut and paste.Stormin Normin!!! I saw his Final video almost a year ago now and he is the reason I created a Coercer. I'm trying to represent, but watch the video I made about solo pvp'ing as a Coercer and see if I'm representing him well. I have no issues with the way Coercer are right now. They are VERY difficult to solo pvp with and are VERY Squishy, but that is the reason I play them. Leave as is, so when I kill scouts thinking they are god's gift.. I can loot their tokens with a smile. Seeing their corpse there for a few mins makes me think they are saying to themselfs, [I cannot control my vocabulary]! <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><a href="http://files.filefront.com/Exur+Finalwmv/;7869058;;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Exur Final PvP Vid - Pre GU36</a>... and btw, most if not all people in my video can and have killed me... this is just of course my wins. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />EnjoyExur - 70 CoercerVenekorbtw, I have that Stormin Normin final video saved... so I can put it on file front if needed. However, this video was made before EoF and alot has changed now.

Izzypop

06-25-2007, 04:49 PM

I seriously disagree with t7 Enchanters being underpowered. I have a T7 Guardian and I'm good at my job. Most fights I am in are long fights. As a general rule for 6 on 6 fights if one side has an enchanter or warlock and the other doesn't the side with the good pvp squishy tends to win. The OP compeletely lost sight of just how much of a pain in the [Removed for Content] his class can be. Lets take the pvp fight where both groups have 2 healers and 1 tank. If my Guard has 2 healers and the enemy enchanter stuns and stiffles me the fight won't last long. I haven't played my guard in a few weeks but the crew I used to play with was really good at pvp and we could handle the tank loosing agro briefly, but a tank with 2 healers can not last long against enchanter power drains. A fight where both sides have 2 healers is going to end when someone runs out of power, and if they only have 1 tank who is going to be power drained you can guess what side is going to go oop 1st. Once a tank runs oop they are wothless. What about 2 tank 2 healer fights? These are all about power, power, and more power. The groups has little deeeps and the fight will probably last a good 2 minutes. The power difference from an enchanter in 2 minutes is huge. What about the groups with 1 tank and 1 healer? These groups are even more screwed by an enchanter. If the healer gets mezed they are done for. If a tank without intercepts gets mezed they are done for. It's going to be a fast and quick fight where every second counts and a well timed stun or stiffle on a tank or healer can end the group. Enchanters don't need more brute force, and with the over all dps Nerfage in LU36 enchanters will be more needed than ever.

Siphar

06-26-2007, 07:56 AM

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote> I seriously disagree with t7 Enchanters being underpowered. I have a T7 Guardian and I'm good at my job. Most fights I am in are long fights. As a general rule for 6 on 6 fights if one side has an enchanter or warlock and the other doesn't the side with the good pvp squishy tends to win. The OP compeletely lost sight of just how much of a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] his class can be. Lets take the pvp fight where both groups have 2 healers and 1 tank. If my Guard has 2 healers and the enemy enchanter stuns and stiffles me the fight won't last long. I haven't played my guard in a few weeks but the crew I used to play with was really good at pvp and we could handle the tank loosing agro briefly, but a tank with 2 healers can not last long against enchanter power drains. A fight where both sides have 2 healers is going to end when someone runs out of power, and if they only have 1 tank who is going to be power drained you can guess what side is going to go oop 1st. Once a tank runs oop they are wothless. What about 2 tank 2 healer fights? These are all about power, power, and more power. The groups has little deeeps and the fight will probably last a good 2 minutes. The power difference from an enchanter in 2 minutes is huge. What about the groups with 1 tank and 1 healer? These groups are even more screwed by an enchanter. If the healer gets mezed they are done for. If a tank without intercepts gets mezed they are done for. It's going to be a fast and quick fight where every second counts and a well timed stun or stiffle on a tank or healer can end the group. Enchanters don't need more brute force, and with the over all dps Nerfage in LU36 enchanters will be more needed than ever. </blockquote>You have focused on the only situation whena coercer can be useful apart from in a instance with no enemies. If you read my OP, you would realise teh coercer cannot achieve their class defining abilities, namely to master your power and charm. They cannot drain power and they cannot charm effectively in PvP.I would much rather (in current state PvP) have a bard in my grp who can "MEZ" the healer in your situation, and the group would die just as fast (bardss also boost the grp's melee/spell abilities AE style, not single target and give good power regen). Not to mention there are items in the game which can stilfe/stun for long duration anyway. Including the rune carved bone staff (unable to scream) and teh raincaller (~5 sec stun).However, if the coercer could charm their healer for 20-30 secs given a little time (~5 secs), then the class would be achieving it's class defining ability and be more useful than a wanna-be bard.Or, if they coercer had DD drains in PvP, they might be able to drain enough power to make a difference. The only spell useful is mana cloak and then the coercer may as well go AFK.The coercer is not contributing enough to make them feel useful imo = unbalanced.I suggest you play one in pvp.