Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PvP

[Firam]

<i>Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums.  I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place.  Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky.  I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved.  I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly.  And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago.  In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado: </i><b>------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: </b>This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing. Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle. <b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die. </b>There's no getting out of it. You did not come here to be safe. You were safe before. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. There is no way out of Law #1. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. If this bothers you, you made a mistake. <b>Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPG </b>You can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again. There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, you made a mistake. <b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed </b>All classes have advantages in certain situations. If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by <b>grouping</b> with someone who can complement them. You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. That's not PvP, that's <b>dueling</b>. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, what makes you think this is any different? And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing <b>everything</b> you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this. <b>Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survival </b>Any idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, he's not a coward, he's <b>smart</b>. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to <b>earn </b>that kill. If they get away, they survived. If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's <b>stupid.</b> Make them earn it! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill. If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, see Law #1. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. <b>Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b>Too many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1) PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality<b>. </b>You aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again. The safe servers are still where you left them.l <b>Law of the Jungle #6: It's still just a game </b>Playing on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult. If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, then it's not for you. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. If you are here because you want to enjoy it, but you're not, don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it. It is what it is. It's MEAN. And if  someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief. If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem. If you're not having fun, you made a mistake. This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you. All of these factors lead me to one final point. Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped  and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. The final, and truest Law of the Jungle:<b> LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.</b>

[Greeen-_-Ranger]

Please re-sticky this thread, because it's as accurate today as ever, maybe put this after the start video in game so that people understand they are going to get the crap beat out of them when they first start, but that it WILL get better.   

[Mournblades]

<p>Thank you.  This is EXACTLY what I have been talking about.</p><p>The CAREBEARS that have joined us and are reponsible for all the recent nonsense need to understand PVP is not meant to be nice and 'fair'.  You are going to die and a lot to superior opponents, be that gear/ca's/aa's ect.  Notice I mentioned anything about 'skill'.  I hesitate to call any online game skill because to me it is just pushing a few buttons.  That may be 10 buttons or 50 buttons it realy makes little difference and if you disagree that is fine.  It just proves my point.  You are one of the players that dies a lot and will always die a lot.  Learn to accept that or accept the fact PVP is NOT for you!</p><p>Please do not take this as you are good for nothing.  You are just not good at pvp.  EQ2 has plenty safe places to level and you can go to the arena to fight people whenever you feel like it remember?  All this can be found on a pve server.  So please stop trying to screw around with something you are just not meant for.</p><p>Michael Jordan was one of the best at basketball and when he tried to diversify his athletics to baseball look what happened?  He sucked!  He simply did not belong there...</p>

[Rastaah]

<p>When I had a guild, I put this on the website.</p><p>This should be in the eq2 pvp manual, not sure why it got unstickied...an overzealous mod perhaps.</p>

[Image_Vain]

LAW OF THE JUNGLE #7: THIS GAME DOESN'T TAKE SKILL.

[Broccoliswo]

If that was true, you'd be good at it too and not crying on the other board about how you think nerfing is fair and needed.

[Greeen-_-Ranger]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>If that was true, you'd be good at it too and not crying on the other board about how you think nerfing is fair and needed. </blockquote> /agree.

[KannaWhoopass]

<p><b>The reduction of PvP levels in zones </b></p><p><b>and level locking low levels made this post <u>Obsolete</u></b></p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b></p><p><b>Not true .. </b></p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b></p><p><b>not true of too many scout classes which is why #3 no longer applied if the pvp ranges were still 6 or 8 levels perhaps it wouldnt be so bad level locked twinks are gods rule is void</b></p><p><b><b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.</b></b></p><p><b>Look at the leader boards , top 100 players 70% are under level 25 . kill ratios of 40:1 , rule #1 doesnt seem to be in effect for those who rule #5 doesnt apply.</b></p><b>I always thought the welcome to the jungle was a p</b><b>retentious garbage post .. let it die</b>

[Image_Vain]

Ugh, nerf this, nerf that, stop nerfing stuff and let us play the game lol, but they do need to add PVE zones in PVP servers.

[silentpsycho]

<p>Read this because it is the truth.  Please sticky this.</p>

[Rhannnn]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>If that was true, you'd be good at it too and not crying on the other board about how you think nerfing is fair and needed. </blockquote><p> Totally Agree.</p><p> Every second post I see is one from Image Vain. </p><p>I've got a tip: less posting here .. more actuall playing time ... more experience in how to pvp</p><p>result: happier while playing EQ2 ! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Rhan</p><p>lvl70 Ranger</p>

[Drager]

this post has inspired me i think they should drop it in leaflets through the streets. i always got tierd of my friends complaining about how they lost thier title when i could never get one and saying how they were going to quite when me and my wizard would always die first. this post has inspired me to find my enemys weakness and hunt him relentlessly thank you

[Netzoko]

Very motivating, thank you.

[D-DevilK]

The core message of "Welcome to the Jungle", is -- Adopt, Adapt, Improve. There are minor flaws in the logic, but the on the whole the smarter thing to do is stop moaning and deal with it.

[Image_Vain]

Well I PVP, read the forums, and post all at the same time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ther]

<p>I saw this post back in the day. It was a great post and I agreed with it 100%, <i>then</i>.</p><p>Now, things have changed. Level locking is killing the community because new players are not having fun. Reading this post isn't going to help that. Nerfing level locks <b>HARD</b>, however, will.</p><p>The point of a game is that you pick it up and enjoy yourself, as opposed to, as those who support the status quo suggest, you make the game a full time suck-fest job for weeks or months playing catch-up, then have fun.</p>

[Image_Vain]

Dazzinian@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>I saw this post back in the day. It was a great post and I agreed with it 100%, <i>then</i>.</p><p>Now, things have changed. Level locking is killing the community because new players are not having fun. Reading this post isn't going to help that. Nerfing level locks <b>HARD</b>, however, will.</p><p>The point of a game is that you pick it up and enjoy yourself, as opposed to, as those who support the status quo suggest, you make the game a full time suck-fest job for weeks or months playing catch-up, then have fun.</p></blockquote>Most probably the most intelligent post ever made, besides mine.

[Luxun]

<p><i>You see the part about survival ? </i></p><p><i>How can we survive now ? its crazy that we can no longer live .....they really need to re-open some kind of escape path for small groups that are pvpign and suddenly have a raid roll over them. </i></p>

[Image_Vain]

<cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>You see the part about survival ? </i></p><p><i>How can we survive now ? its crazy that we can no longer live .....they really need to re-open some kind of escape path for small groups that are pvpign and suddenly have a raid roll over them. </i></p></blockquote> Wow you joined exactly when I did! Well actually I played back in the day so... Anyway, no, I think if your trying to kill other players, then you deserve to be run other by an X4 pvp raid party [Removed for Content].

[Ikuri]

<p>.</p><b></b>

[Luxun]

<cite>Image_Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>You see the part about survival ? </i></p><p><i>How can we survive now ? its crazy that we can no longer live .....they really need to re-open some kind of escape path for small groups that are pvpign and suddenly have a raid roll over them. </i></p></blockquote> Wow you joined exactly when I did! Well actually I played back in the day so... Anyway, no, I think if your trying to kill other players, then you deserve to be run other by an X4 pvp raid party [Removed for Content]. </blockquote><p>I have played pvp games before and in no game did ,my speed ever droppedi n pvp and all escape paths blocked. It makes no sense. Half of a battle is survival and ability to retreat from a losing fight. Its nmot just kill kill kill kill any mindless 5 year old could manage that kind of pvp. </p><p>Just because certain players are too lazy to put their minds to work to try to earn a kill ...are now being awarded with cheap kills. Get in a x4 and roll over t7 zones and kill peopel that are locked in pvp encounters with each other. </p><p>Also this is my alt account not the main account. </p>

[Mournblades]

Dazzinian@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>I saw this post back in the day. It was a great post and I agreed with it 100%, <i>then</i>.</p><p>Now, things have changed. Level locking is killing the community because new players are not having fun. Reading this post isn't going to help that. Nerfing level locks <b>HARD</b>, however, will.</p><p>The point of a game is that you pick it up and enjoy yourself, as opposed to, as those who support the status quo suggest, you make the game a full time suck-fest job for weeks or months playing catch-up, then have fun.</p></blockquote><p> Yeah that's smart.  [Removed for Content] off the people who worked for their [I cannot control my vocabulary] and cater to the new clientel!  Why can't you CAREBEARS get it through your thick skull there is a place for this, but it aint PVP.  It's called PVE.</p><p>The OP applies <b>NOW</b> just as much as then!  Nothing has changed.  When I 1st started with 2 friends who have been playing EQ2 since launch we had nothing!  We died and we died lots.  Not once did any of us cry foul including my friends wife who had ZERO PVP experience.</p><p>We learned to survive and survive well.  This is the pvp experience/fun and people like you need to realize this before you run the game into another lifeless pve+ CAREBEAR game.</p><p>Really why are you here?  You can get the same satisfaction from a blue server.  PVP is not for the meek and not for people who can't handle being dominated.  And before anyone spews more garbage: NO I do not think griefing new players is fun, but it is part of the game.  We need 550+ faction kills to get the 1st pvp item.  If you really want to address the issue make lowbie zones which are pvp free, but do not mess with locking/twinking what-have-you.  Oh wait... that sounds a hell of a lot like a pve server.  </p><p>Are you getting the hint yet??</p>

[Image_Vain]

<cite>Stashe wrote:</cite><blockquote>couple people on this thread need to [I cannot control my vocabulary] and go back to the RP server. Image Vain, not only am i looking in your general direction, but i'm mentioning your name specifically and in particular. </blockquote> I dont roleplay.............

[Tricit2]

I think the nerf on Rangers was a tad too much. Perhaps the rogues got too much nerfed, as well. That doesn't mean that they will not be great classes anymore. One tracks invisible people while the other tracks stealthed people. Tracking will always be useful for hunting in the jungle.

[Luxun]

<cite>Tricit2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the nerf on Rangers was a tad too much. Perhaps the rogues got too much nerfed, as well. That doesn't mean that they will not be great classes anymore. One tracks invisible people while the other tracks stealthed people. Tracking will always be useful for hunting in the jungle.</blockquote><p> Honestly i fought a lot of rangers in T7 ..they are just NOT overpowered. Though it may have seemed like thay weren't to a SK, but this nerf is really harsh. They really need their snares and roots, besides those roots and snares break so often once theystart hitting you, you can use potions to removethem ect. To nerf their damage, their speed, their movement control stuff AND their dps makes no sense at all.  Only 2 classes that needed nerfs were Swashies and Brigands ...so rouges and rouges only. </p><p>What I don't understand is when eof went live and rangers could bring their sprint speed to 80%+ ...didn't it ring any DEV's bell that it was ogign to cause problems in pvp ? I mean this wasn;t something someone culd overlook, it wasn't rocket science, who in the blue hell thought such a addition to their arsenal would not cause issues in pvp  ? but nooo they ignore the player base's feedback, they even ignore their own common sense. Now they come and totally cripple the ranger class while in all honestly it didn't need to be toned down too much. </p><p>SOE DEVs need to stop being to extreme, its either north or south to them ..but whatthey don't realize is, its the balance of north and south that keeps the world together and stable.  They give a class 90% sprint ..then they come i nand take it all away, nerf their nsares and roots, hen nerf their dps too ....BALANCE DEvs...BALANCE. </p>

[silentpsycho]

I find it completely ironic that people post complete and utter crap whining about the way they want the servers changed to suite their ability (or, more accurately, lack thereof) and playstyle.  Don't sticky this thread, it's been turned into an embarasment.  I'm ashamed of the whines posted on an otherwise totally inspiring thread that should remind people why they roll on a pvp server in the first place.  But, if you happen to find the original thread, or can remove everything after the first post or two, sticky that...

[dr4gonUK]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it completely ironic that people post complete and utter crap whining about the way they want the servers changed to suite their ability (or, more accurately, lack thereof) and playstyle.  Don't sticky this thread, it's been turned into an embarasment.  I'm ashamed of the whines posted on an otherwise totally inspiring thread that should remind people why they roll on a pvp server in the first place.  But, if you happen to find the original thread, or can remove everything after the first post or two, sticky that...</blockquote><p> QFE.</p><p>Totally agree. The people who complain about the game non stop should not be playing pvp. They are not capable of rising to the challenge imo and should go back to WoW or Kittys Island adventure or whatever the heck noob game they were playing before they hitup eq2. </p>

[silentpsycho]

Herne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it completely ironic that people post complete and utter crap whining about the way they want the servers changed to suite their ability (or, more accurately, lack thereof) and playstyle.  Don't sticky this thread, it's been turned into an embarasment.  I'm ashamed of the whines posted on an otherwise totally inspiring thread that should remind people why they roll on a pvp server in the first place.  But, if you happen to find the original thread, or can remove everything after the first post or two, sticky that...</blockquote><p> QFE.</p><p>Totally agree. The people who complain about the game non stop should not be playing pvp. They are not capable of rising to the challenge imo and should go back to WoW or Kittys Island adventure or whatever the heck noob game they were playing before they hitup eq2. </p></blockquote>The problem, of course, is the fact that, as demonstrated on the test server, the devs are catering to the carebears instead of the sort of players that appreciate the original spirit of this thread.  The folks whining about nerf this and nerf that and that locking is ruining such and such should put a stick in it and just log into a blue server where everyone *does* get a fair shake. 

[Rastaah]

<p>Im all for hardcore pvp but the level locking is utterly dumb. I like free for all pvp and I like NO level limits.  The level locking just makes it so people can sit in Darklight all day picking off newb players for kicks .  I have no doubt some of you guys level lock with intentions of just improving your character and experiencing content, and thats fine. What I think is stupid is the lack of risk the people who sit in places like Darklight encounter.   These twinks sit there with utterly NO risk for the most part.  I want to be able to go kick ther cowardly arses with my higher level and protect my lands. </p><p>Honestly, don't take out level locking, take out level limits /evil grin.</p>

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Rastaah wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im all for hardcore pvp but the level locking is utterly dumb. I like free for all pvp and I like NO level limits.  The level locking just makes it so people can sit in Darklight all day picking off newb players for kicks .  I have no doubt some of you guys level lock with intentions of just improving your character and experiencing content, and thats fine. What I think is stupid is the lack of risk the people who sit in places like Darklight encounter.   These twinks sit there with utterly NO risk for the most part.  I want to be able to go kick ther cowardly arses with my higher level and protect my lands. </p><p>Honestly, don't take out level locking, take out level limits /evil grin.</p></blockquote><p> First, from what you said, it's not level locking you have a problem with, it's twinked out level 14's slaughtering the treasured gear clad 10's.  But, this happens in every tier, with ever increasing level and gear disparity as you go all the way up to T7 - where the folks that have been raiding for 2+ years love to sit around and slaughter brand new level 60's and cloud hop all day with their x4 raid forces...  Ya, loads of fun and skilled pvp there...  Anyway, if the thought is that allowing a level 70 to squash level 10's would start us policing our own, that is an interesting thought.  It happend on some EQ1 PVP servers (SZ FTW), but I fear that the average prepubescent level 70 would form up an x4 raid and go camp DL Wood, Ruins, Caves, GfFay, etc. just to get free faction and "pwn u 100ze7!!1!" (whatever the heck that means).</p><p>What locking does is gives those folks getting ganked day in and day out a chance to get even by bettering their character.  Without logging into <a href="http://www.platzus.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.platzus.com</a> and buying 200 plat if they are willing to work on it.  Hard.  For a long, non-trivial amount of time.</p><p>And, evidently, improving your character by investing time and/or experiencing content that frankly I didn't even know existed *IS NOT* fine, because it is being removed from the game.  I, for one, smell a conspiricy brewing here involving plat farmers/sellers trying to drive up demand for their (supposedly illegal, but largely ignored) products.</p>

[dr4gonUK]

<p>The best fabled/mastered lvl 20 of whatever class solo, cannot beat a full group of lvl 24's. Why is it the twinks fault? Because its too much trouble for the newbs to call in help? And thats the games fault? I dont think so. I'm sorry but i dont see the problem with lvl lockers. If it means a faction has to protect its newb zones from the lockers then they should do it. Not come to this forum and cry like babies how its not fair. Geeezus!!</p>

[Orthureon]

<p>EVERYONE gets ganked whether you are the most uber [Removed for Content] out toon on the server (I mean an uber person with REAL skill). Or a noob fresh out of DLW or the island. Someone will always be stronger/more skilled or have the odds in their favor. IE an uber dreadnaught (awesome gear, all masters) killing mobs gets owned by an untitled or a hunter because he is low on health and/or power. There are so many factors to be accounted for regarding "fairness" that no true balance is EVER attainable. You nerf one class, another takes the place as king. Only balance is FPS which takes "twitch", which I don't want from a fantasy MMO. </p><p>Adapt to your environment, your environment will not adapt to you. Well that is true in most cases but with all the complaints it seems to being reversed. A few tweakes WERE needed but some are out of hand (IE nerfing the Ranger so hard).</p>

[Merander]

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>The reduction of PvP levels in zones </b></p><p><b>and level locking low levels made this post <u>Obsolete</u></b></p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b></p><p><b>Not true .. </b></p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b></p><p><b>not true of too many scout classes which is why #3 no longer applied if the pvp ranges were still 6 or 8 levels perhaps it wouldnt be so bad level locked twinks are gods rule is void</b></p><p><b><b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.</b></b></p><p><b>Look at the leader boards , top 100 players 70% are under level 25 . kill ratios of 40:1 , rule #1 doesnt seem to be in effect for those who rule #5 doesnt apply.</b></p><b>I always thought the welcome to the jungle was a p</b><b>retentious garbage post .. let it die</b> </blockquote>agreed I always thought it was garbage as well.

[Broccoliswo]

E-people these days tbh...

[Firam]

<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it completely ironic that people post complete and utter crap whining about the way they want the servers changed to suite their ability (or, more accurately, lack thereof) and playstyle.  Don't sticky this thread, it's been turned into an embarasment.  I'm ashamed of the whines posted on an otherwise totally inspiring thread that should remind people why they roll on a pvp server in the first place.  But, <b>if you happen to find the original thread, or can remove everything after the first post or two, sticky that...</b></blockquote> Sadly, you're right.  What was once an attempt by someone to make a resounding statement that would (or could) guide new players in PvP, has been unfortunately marred by more of the same whining that the OP felt so strongly about.  It's ironic.  It detracts from the game, and instead of everyone having fun, no one enjoys their play experience because it's always a battle between those who scream loudest (not surprisingly, these people aren't the greatest PvPers) and those who actually understand their class and the <u>entirety</u> of PvP tactics.  There <i>are</i> minor imbalances that could be corrected that happen to crop up from time to time, usually around an expansion or major update, but overall the PvP system works.  My exiled T4 illusionist is where I find most of my enjoyment, and it's <b>far</b> from the stereotypical "overpowered" class.  It's a blast to run around solo as a low level exiled clothie, even when I get ganked by supertwinks, full groups, or x2's. Heck, I don't even know the OP.  I just know what he said over a year ago made a lot of sense.  I read it before I ever started on Nagafen, and it made sense.  I've been up and down the PvP food chain on many alts since then, and it still makes sense. And I agree with your highlighted statement above... the initial response to this re-post was overwhelmingly positive, before the whiners came in.  Can a forum mod please sticky this and remove the whining and other stuff (including this sub-thread), that quite honestly belong in <b>other whine threads</b> that already exist? His post was stickied back in the day, and I think it needs to be up there now so it's visible to everyone yet again.  Even through all the game mechanics changes since then, 99% of what he said rings true.  Remove the trash, sticky it, and if the people who still want to whine about things that are <u>almost entirely within their power to control</u> want to re-post their trash, so be it.  The original thread ended up being a couple hundred posts and much of it was good reading; it wasn't a carryover from the glut of self-centered close-minded whining that happens everyday on the forums and in game right now.

[Firam]

No takers on a sticky for this? Also, does anyone remember the name of the OP?

[CompStomp]

Heya, Its Ahabb, im pretty sure the Origonal Poster of the jungle junx is Riot on Venekor. When he wrote it he was proly the most dangerous assassin out there. I think it was before anyone was even 70....Anyhow yep Pretty sure was Riot. Hes still on Venekor somewhere, was guilded with him a while back, cool guy.

[Daemondred]

<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No takers on a sticky for this? Also, does anyone remember the name of the OP? </blockquote><p> the original poster was Obajad back in Feb/March 2006</p>

[Izzypop]

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>The reduction of PvP levels in zones </b></p><p><b>and level locking low levels made this post <u>Obsolete</u></b></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #1:  Blame lockers for all the problems.  It's their fault T7 zones suck for pvp, and it's their fault that your twink can't beat their twink.  Blame them for everything that's wrong with pvp and hate them with a passion. </b></span> </p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b></p><p><b>Not true ..</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ffff00">Law of the Hater #2 Cry nerf.  If someone beats you on a regular basis it's not because you lack skill, it's because they need a nerf.   You lost therefor their class and ability to beat you is clearly in need of a nerf.</span></b><b> </b> </p><p><b>Law of th</b><b>e Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b></p><p><b>not true of too many scout classes which is why #3 no longer applied if the pvp ranges were still 6 or 8 levels perhaps it wouldnt be so bad level locked twinks are gods rule is void</b></p><p><b> </b><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the hater #3:  Everything SOE does just  makes the game even worse.  Life for the pvp twink was really tough back in the day when newbie yards and t2 zones were an 8 level range zone.  Back then if they locked at 25 they could pick on 18s all day and all night until a 32 showed up and forced them to evak while engaged in pvp combat.  LIfe was soo hard for a pvp twink back in the day I don't see how they ever managed.</b> </span></p><p><b><b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.</b></b></p><p><b>Look at the leader boards , top 100 players 70% are under level 25 . kill ratios of 40:1 , rule #1 doesnt seem to be in effect for those who rule #5 doesnt apply.</b> </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #4: Drink your own cool-aid preferably the grape flavored kind.  If level 25s start to flood the top 100 list it's not because t2 PvP is more abundant than t7.  It's not because many players enjoy t2/t3 pvp more than t7.  It's not because all level locked twinks do all day is fight noobs and other level locked twinks instead of raiding t7 zones or running instances.  It's not because the twinks are organized, use teamwork, and have skill. It's only because level locked twinks fear you, and you alone, and they are soo afraid of you specifically that they refuse to play on t7 anymore because you are such a pvp god.</b></span> </p><b>I always thought the welcome to the jungle was a p</b><b>retentious garbage post .. let it die</b> <p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #5  </b></span><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Jungle #6: It's still just a game is complete and total BS.  This game is worth raising your blood pressure over.  This game is your life.  Hate other players with all your heart.  Dream of kicking their [I cannot control my vocabulary]  IRL as you touch yourself at night.  Let the hate flow....</span> </b></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"> </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"> </span></p></blockquote>

[Spider]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>The reduction of PvP levels in zones </b></p><p><b>and level locking low levels made this post <u>Obsolete</u></b></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #1:  Blame lockers for all the problems.  It's their fault T7 zones suck for pvp, and it's their fault that your twink can't beat their twink.  Blame them for everything that's wrong with pvp and hate them with a passion. </b></span> </p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b></p><p><b>Not true ..</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ffff00">Law of the Hater #2 Cry nerf.  If someone beats you on a regular basis it's not because you lack skill, it's because they need a nerf.   You lost therefor their class and ability to beat you is clearly in need of a nerf.</span></b><b> </b></p><p><b>Law of th</b><b>e Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b></p><p><b>not true of too many scout classes which is why #3 no longer applied if the pvp ranges were still 6 or 8 levels perhaps it wouldnt be so bad level locked twinks are gods rule is void</b></p><p><b> </b><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the hater #3:  Everything SOE does just  makes the game even worse.  Life for the pvp twink was really tough back in the day when newbie yards and t2 zones were an 8 level range zone.  Back then if they locked at 25 they could pick on 18s all day and all night until a 32 showed up and forced them to evak while engaged in pvp combat.  LIfe was soo hard for a pvp twink back in the day I don't see how they ever managed.</b> </span></p><p><b><b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.</b></b></p><p><b>Look at the leader boards , top 100 players 70% are under level 25 . kill ratios of 40:1 , rule #1 doesnt seem to be in effect for those who rule #5 doesnt apply.</b> </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #4: Drink your own cool-aid preferably the grape flavored kind.  If level 25s start to flood the top 100 list it's not because t2 PvP is more abundant than t7.  It's not because many players enjoy t2/t3 pvp more than t7.  It's not because all level locked twinks do all day is fight noobs and other level locked twinks instead of raiding t7 zones or running instances.  It's not because the twinks are organized, use teamwork, and have skill. It's only because level locked twinks fear you, and you alone, and they are soo afraid of you specifically that they refuse to play on t7 anymore because you are such a pvp god.</b></span> </p><b>I always thought the welcome to the jungle was a p</b><b>retentious garbage post .. let it die</b> <p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #5  </b></span><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Jungle #6: It's still just a game is complete and total BS.  This game is worth raising your blood pressure over.  This game is your life.  Hate other players with all your heart.  Dream of kicking their [I cannot control my vocabulary]  IRL as you touch yourself at night.  Let the hate flow.... </b></span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p>WOW i jstu gotta say  for the record </p><p>both of you </p><p>SEEK PROFESIONAL HELP</p>

[Xova]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>The reduction of PvP levels in zones </b></p><p><b>and level locking low levels made this post <u>Obsolete</u></b></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #1:  Blame lockers for all the problems.  It's their fault T7 zones suck for pvp, and it's their fault that your twink can't beat their twink.  Blame them for everything that's wrong with pvp and hate them with a passion. </b></span> </p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b></p><p><b>Not true ..</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ffff00">Law of the Hater #2 Cry nerf.  If someone beats you on a regular basis it's not because you lack skill, it's because they need a nerf.   You lost therefor their class and ability to beat you is clearly in need of a nerf.</span></b><b> </b></p><p><b>Law of th</b><b>e Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b></p><p><b>not true of too many scout classes which is why #3 no longer applied if the pvp ranges were still 6 or 8 levels perhaps it wouldnt be so bad level locked twinks are gods rule is void</b></p><p><b> </b><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the hater #3:  Everything SOE does just  makes the game even worse.  Life for the pvp twink was really tough back in the day when newbie yards and t2 zones were an 8 level range zone.  Back then if they locked at 25 they could pick on 18s all day and all night until a 32 showed up and forced them to evak while engaged in pvp combat.  LIfe was soo hard for a pvp twink back in the day I don't see how they ever managed.</b> </span></p><p><b><b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.</b></b></p><p><b>Look at the leader boards , top 100 players 70% are under level 25 . kill ratios of 40:1 , rule #1 doesnt seem to be in effect for those who rule #5 doesnt apply.</b> </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #4: Drink your own cool-aid preferably the grape flavored kind.  If level 25s start to flood the top 100 list it's not because t2 PvP is more abundant than t7.  It's not because many players enjoy t2/t3 pvp more than t7.  It's not because all level locked twinks do all day is fight noobs and other level locked twinks instead of raiding t7 zones or running instances.  It's not because the twinks are organized, use teamwork, and have skill. It's only because level locked twinks fear you, and you alone, and they are soo afraid of you specifically that they refuse to play on t7 anymore because you are such a pvp god.</b></span> </p><b>I always thought the welcome to the jungle was a p</b><b>retentious garbage post .. let it die</b> <p><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Hater #5  </b></span><span style="color: #ffff00"><b>Law of the Jungle #6: It's still just a game is complete and total BS.  This game is worth raising your blood pressure over.  This game is your life.  Hate other players with all your heart.  Dream of kicking their [I cannot control my vocabulary]  IRL as you touch yourself at night.  Let the hate flow.... </b></span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p>WOW i jstu gotta say  for the record </p><p>both of you </p><p>SEEK PROFESIONAL HELP</p></blockquote><p>Pretty sure he was sarcastically mocking the other poster there, Meiling...</p>

[Spider]

<p>im sure he was but i think they both need to chill jsut a tad </p><p>liek cold shower time or something lol </p>

[Veul]

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>The reduction of PvP levels in zones </b></p><p><b>and level locking low levels made this post <u>Obsolete</u></b></p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b></p><p><b>Not true .. </b></p><p><b>Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b></p><p><b>not true of too many scout classes which is why #3 no longer applied if the pvp ranges were still 6 or 8 levels perhaps it wouldnt be so bad level locked twinks are gods rule is void</b></p><p><b><b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.</b></b></p><p><b>Look at the leader boards , top 100 players 70% are under level 25 . kill ratios of 40:1 , rule #1 doesnt seem to be in effect for those who rule #5 doesnt apply.</b></p><b>I always thought the welcome to the jungle was a p</b><b>retentious garbage post .. let it die</b> </blockquote>I disagree with you  completely  Kanna . I could go through each class that you supposedly call a " God class" and tell you exactly how to beat them, and if you think scouts fit into the god class then it's pretty sad . If you know what you're doing , you can make any scout kill themselves in pvp . Very little work with the right class to counter them. Which I believe reiterates one of the above rules. There is no "God class" , if you can't beat a lvl locker than as the old saying goes " If ya can't beat em , join em " Get your AA's up on par with theirs , Farm or make the armor , and start tearing into them. If it's not a toon you want to linger in low lvls  with , well then those lvl lockers shouldn't be a problem for long then should they? But you will have others waiting for you. And as far as the last part of your post goes. This is my first time reading this . Could it be you want the post to die because it says everything you don't want to hear? I think this post hits where it counts, so if you can't handle it maybe you should think about going back to a blue server where you'd be more comfortable ,as mentioned above.

[Izzypop]

<span style="color: #ffccff">  If my sarcasm was to abrasive for the general community I apologize.  Perhaps I was too abrasive, and a nice pink color to my words will sugarcoat the raw jagged pill of the truth.  Perhaps I have put too much sarcasm into flame responses to the laws of the jungle point already, so I will just get right to the point.   <b>Level locking has not changed any of the laws of the jungle. The jungle is every bit as vicious at level 10 as it is at 70.</b>   The instant you ding 10 you are going to be up against packs of level 14 locked twinks in full mastercrafted and 4 locked levels of AA.   Many will be organized teams on voice coms that will hunt you down like a dog if you are solo or grouped.  You are going to die.  The instant you ding 12 you are now be in the same mastercrafted gear the twinks are in, and you are a twink yourself.  Adept 3s are easy to come by and the fact that the other twinks might have a couple pieces of fabled gear and all master 1s matters little when compared to the fact they are coming at you in groups.  If you fight groups solo you will die.  If you form a pickup group to go against them you will probably still die because many of them are organized teams on voice communications that have worked together for a little bit. Nobody has any sympathy for you.  Everybody gets ganked.  35 Faction is 35 faction and everybody wants their pvp gear. You have 2 choices as a new player Level lock for AAs or grind levels as fast as possible. Grinding levels as fast as possible is a bad idea.  You can get from level 1 to 70 in no time flat.  Just grab any pickup group you can find, grind away at PvE, and stick to instanced zones to avoid PvP.  Buy XP potions with any status that you get.  Ding 70 gratz! you now just as weak as you were at 69 with crap gear, no AAs, and No pvp faction.  No pvp faction=no easy gear.  No AAs, crap gear, little PvP experience playing your class, and not being in an active team of pvpers means you are going to get absolutely annihilated by the other level 70s of the server.  You will only be able to win a 1 on 1 against the worse characters of the server, or bots.  You will be dead weight and the weakest link in your group and therefor less likely to win group on group pvp battles.  Farming PvP tolkens will be painfully slow as the only way you will be able to do it is by ganking solo players while in a group.  Worse of all level 70s can be a horrible group of gossiping 1337 harpies who will quickly brand you as a nub and give you a hard to remove reputation.  Unless you play a badly needed class you won't be able to get into a raiding guild to raid and get some of the fabled guild that everybody who is killing you is wearing.  AA will also take a very long time to work up as gank squads are everywhere just looking for solo players and their precious tokens.  <b>Anytime you go out solo as a level 70 to do quests you will be nothing more than a token pinata.</b> <img src="http://www.siggraph.org/publications/video-review/sig2005/SVRAT152Images/png/Pinata.png" border="0">  If you do level lock at level 10 to grind AA instead of quickly grinding levels you are going to die a lot in pvp by getting ganked by groups while doing quests solo.  Take your deaths and get back to the quest grinding.  AA is far easier to grind out at low levels in zones like Gfay or Darklight than it is at 70.  PvP while you are at it.  Find a group and find a guild.  Find a guild that uses voice coms and activly PvPs.  Avoid soloing whenever possible.  Anytime you go out solo you will be nothing more than a faction pinata.  Learn to PvP with your new class.  Build teamwork with new friends.  Stick to the AA and PvP grind at low levels.  The quests are easier and in easy to follow quest lines.  The PvP is extreamly easy to find and you will rapidly build pvp faction.  Don't Unlock xp until you have at least 25 AA to complete 1 line and about positive 20k or so faction.  Fighting a player with 36 AA when you have 25 is like going against an all master 1 player with adept 3s.  It's going to be a difficult fight but you can win.  Fighting a player with 36AA when you have 5 AA is like fighting a player with all master 1's when you have all  Apprentice 2s.  You can't even call it a fight.  The fact is your nothing more than a [Removed for Content] token & faction Pinata. It's easier to work your faction up at low level.  PvP is faster and more abundant.  If you work it up young you will always be able to buy pvp gear as you go up in level.  From tier 3 through 6 PvP gear is the best gear in the game, and cheap as dirt.  It will save you a ton of cash and you will be viciously decked out as you go up in levels towards t7. EQ2 is beautifully vicious at all pvp levels.  You will die a lot and most of your deaths will be your own [Removed for Content] fault, even if the only mistake you  made was going out to solo (Probably the #1 cause of player death)  There is no mercy or quarter in EQ2 if any group finds you solo they will happily bust you open like the token pinata you are.  Most importantly there is no crying in EQ2 and remember the most important law of the jungle #6 It's just a game.</span>

[Ameniel]

<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ffccff">  If my sarcasm was to abrasive for the general community I apologize.  Perhaps I was too abrasive, and a nice pink color to my words will sugarcoat the raw jagged pill of the truth.  Perhaps I have put too much sarcasm into flame responses to the laws of the jungle point already, so I will just get right to the point.   <b>Level locking has not changed any of the laws of the jungle. The jungle is every bit as vicious at level 10 as it is at 70.</b>   The instant you ding 10 you are going to be up against packs of level 14 locked twinks in full mastercrafted and 4 locked levels of AA.   Many will be organized teams on voice coms that will hunt you down like a dog if you are solo or grouped.  You are going to die.  The instant you ding 12 you are now be in the same mastercrafted gear the twinks are in, and you are a twink yourself.  Adept 3s are easy to come by and the fact that the other twinks might have a couple pieces of fabled gear and all master 1s matters little when compared to the fact they are coming at you in groups.  If you fight groups solo you will die.  If you form a pickup group to go against them you will probably still die because many of them are organized teams on voice communications that have worked together for a little bit. Nobody has any sympathy for you.  Everybody gets ganked.  35 Faction is 35 faction and everybody wants their pvp gear. You have 2 choices as a new player Level lock for AAs or grind levels as fast as possible. Grinding levels as fast as possible is a bad idea.  You can get from level 1 to 70 in no time flat.  Just grab any pickup group you can find, grind away at PvE, and stick to instanced zones to avoid PvP.  Buy XP potions with any status that you get.  Ding 70 gratz! you now just as weak as you were at 69 with crap gear, no AAs, and No pvp faction.  No pvp faction=no easy gear.  No AAs, crap gear, little PvP experience playing your class, and not being in an active team of pvpers means you are going to get absolutely annihilated by the other level 70s of the server.  You will only be able to win a 1 on 1 against the worse characters of the server, or bots.  You will be dead weight and the weakest link in your group and therefor less likely to win group on group pvp battles.  Farming PvP tolkens will be painfully slow as the only way you will be able to do it is by ganking solo players while in a group.  Worse of all level 70s can be a horrible group of gossiping 1337 harpies who will quickly brand you as a nub and give you a hard to remove reputation.  Unless you play a badly needed class you won't be able to get into a raiding guild to raid and get some of the fabled guild that everybody who is killing you is wearing.  AA will also take a very long time to work up as gank squads are everywhere just looking for solo players and their precious tokens.  <b>Anytime you go out solo as a level 70 to do quests you will be nothing more than a token pinata.</b> <img src="http://www.siggraph.org/publications/video-review/sig2005/SVRAT152Images/png/Pinata.png" border="0">  If you do level lock at level 10 to grind AA instead of quickly grinding levels you are going to die a lot in pvp by getting ganked by groups while doing quests solo.  Take your deaths and get back to the quest grinding.  AA is far easier to grind out at low levels in zones like Gfay or Darklight than it is at 70.  PvP while you are at it.  Find a group and find a guild.  Find a guild that uses voice coms and activly PvPs.  Avoid soloing whenever possible.  Anytime you go out solo you will be nothing more than a faction pinata.  Learn to PvP with your new class.  Build teamwork with new friends.  Stick to the AA and PvP grind at low levels.  The quests are easier and in easy to follow quest lines.  The PvP is extreamly easy to find and you will rapidly build pvp faction.  Don't Unlock xp until you have at least 25 AA to complete 1 line and about positive 20k or so faction.  Fighting a player with 36 AA when you have 25 is like going against an all master 1 player with adept 3s.  It's going to be a difficult fight but you can win.  Fighting a player with 36AA when you have 5 AA is like fighting a player with all master 1's when you have all  Apprentice 2s.  You can't even call it a fight.  The fact is your nothing more than a [Removed for Content] token & faction Pinata. It's easier to work your faction up at low level.  PvP is faster and more abundant.  If you work it up young you will always be able to buy pvp gear as you go up in level.  From tier 3 through 6 PvP gear is the best gear in the game, and cheap as dirt.  It will save you a ton of cash and you will be viciously decked out as you go up in levels towards t7. EQ2 is beautifully vicious at all pvp levels.  You will die a lot and most of your deaths will be your own [I cannot control my vocabulary] fault, even if the only mistake you  made was going out to solo (Probably the #1 cause of player death)  There is no mercy or quarter in EQ2 if any group finds you solo they will happily bust you open like the token pinata you are.  Most importantly there is no crying in EQ2 and remember the most important law of the jungle #6 It's just a game.</span> </blockquote> Lol I love this post...100% true & imo should be stickied along with the welcome to the jungle one.

[dr4gonUK]

<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol I love this post...100% true & imo should be stickied along with the welcome to the jungle one. </blockquote><p>Fyi,  this thread is stickied.</p><p>Yea nice headsup post to new players from izzypop re state of play.</p>

[CirceSiren]

I also loved this post.. Except for this fatal flaw.. I have several utterly uber twinked out maxed out AA alts.. all of em lvl locked.. Those were the good ol days.. Before the whiners and sniveling players prevailed.. Sob. No more cheeseing the debt game.. You know what I am talkin about.. Kill yourself 100 time get the 50 debt do some quests.. kill yourself again over and over... voila I have amassed 33 AA pts while still at lvl 18.. Those were the good ol days.. BECAUSE the folks who were not doin what we did sobbed to sony.. and voila.. level lock all you want.. If you want the aa your gonna have to kill named, do quests, etc.. and without debt.. and even with the level lock? crap your gonna level.. You now have to do every single quest avail. to you that is your level and below.. to try to stay within one or AA pts of your level.. and if you stop questing, etc.. NO MORE AA for you baby... This is what happens when the whiners and sniveler's get what they asked for... Their own inabiltiy to catch up... and now ours as well.. So I have rolled a couple new alts to test the waters..... I miss the good ol days.... Yep Im getting my [Removed for Content] kicked.. my body parts strewn from one zone line to the other.. (in Neriak specially. bloodbath lol) but I am dying more beautifully than any of my other twinks lol. And hopefully the utterly uber will finally get champ off the not so uber who cuz they whined will never be utterly uber, and start pvping in other areas... cuz god knows the champ gains nothing off the no titled not so uber... Crazy world this pvp jungle we live in.. Wish my arasi noob would die when I jump off the crater cliff... so no infamy loss.. but then what did I expect.. I rolled an alt with wings.. Moral of story.. careful what u wish for.. Sony makes it true.... meet ya on the battlefield.. maybe you will meet me on my utterly uber babe, or maybe not... either way.. it is what it is... and each and every one of us has the old revive button... I suggest you learn to hit it a little more quickly.. so your corpse doesnt not get . ummm you know..... I LOVE the JUNGLE..

[Norrsken]

<cite>CirceSiren wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also loved this post.. Except for this fatal flaw.. I have several utterly uber twinked out maxed out AA alts.. all of em lvl locked.. Those were the good ol days.. Before the whiners and sniveling players prevailed.. Sob. No more cheeseing the debt game.. You know what I am talkin about.. Kill yourself 100 time get the 50 debt do some quests.. kill yourself again over and over... voila I have amassed 33 AA pts while still at lvl 18.. Those were the good ol days.. BECAUSE the folks who were not doin what we did sobbed to sony.. and voila.. level lock all you want.. If you want the aa your gonna have to kill named, do quests, etc.. and without debt.. and even with the level lock? crap your gonna level.. You now have to do every single quest avail. to you that is your level and below.. to try to stay within one or AA pts of your level.. and if you stop questing, etc.. NO MORE AA for you baby... This is what happens when the whiners and sniveler's get what they asked for... Their own inabiltiy to catch up... and now ours as well.. So I have rolled a couple new alts to test the waters..... I miss the good ol days.... Yep Im getting my [I cannot control my vocabulary] kicked.. my body parts strewn from one zone line to the other.. (in Neriak specially. bloodbath lol) but I am dying more beautifully than any of my other twinks lol. And hopefully the utterly uber will finally get champ off the not so uber who cuz they whined will never be utterly uber, and start pvping in other areas... cuz god knows the champ gains nothing off the no titled not so uber... Crazy world this pvp jungle we live in.. Wish my arasi noob would die when I jump off the crater cliff... so no infamy loss.. but then what did I expect.. I rolled an alt with wings.. Moral of story.. careful what u wish for.. Sony makes it true.... meet ya on the battlefield.. maybe you will meet me on my utterly uber babe, or maybe not... either way.. it is what it is... and each and every one of us has the old revive button... I suggest you learn to hit it a little more quickly.. so your corpse doesnt not get . ummm you know..... I LOVE the JUNGLE.. </blockquote>honestly though, debting up didnt really help aa. you perhaps got 10% more aas, but in the tests me and my guildies did, it was more like 5% more aas on the debt guys than the non debt guys. Everyone kept telling me that if I didnt debt up, Id be gimped, so I compared my aas with the other guys in the guild that did the debt thing, and I had 2 less aas at 40 aas than they did, with similar quest/named/disco numbers. another guy did the same thing, going up without debt just being bored to hell with it, and noticed the exact same thing.

[CirceSiren]

I am finding that I have about half the AA pts amassed since the death of experience debt/level locking/ and the addition of the AA cap.  And those AA's were earned just like any other, i.e. questing, named etc..  BUT I must now level, regardless of locking combat, because in order to get those all important AA pts... You gotta quest baby,  and xp lock or not.. you gain xp..  I was simply comparing my pre update utterly uber toons to my recently rolled post update utterly defiecient toons lol.... I find myself looking over my shoulder alot more [Removed for Content]..  for those utterly uber enemies...  and running in the opposite direction...  and with a bit of luck, I just might find some other hapless soul, no longer AA'd to the max, who provides me a good fair fight.....  If that fails, (if i did'nt have bad luck I would have none at all) I camp and roll the utterly uber baby out.. to exact revenge....  Yeah its a jungle out there...  But keep the faith.... Every dog has its day...  And now folks are starting to level if they wanna get more AA.. they have to....  so they will soon be moving out of range of we lowlie babes.... and then we not so uber become kings of our lil fiefdom......  ROAR.........  until we also move up to the next range....  Enjoy it while it lasts.. And remember.. Yeah your gonna die.. But as long as you die well, sword drawn, battle cry on the air?.....  You have died a beautiful death...  and dont have to be the subject of the never ending topic... Zone hugging , chicken chits, punks, etc etc etc...  Now go to the mender and get ready for the next round.. And ummmm hope you banked first!

[Fluffypaws]

i had to build up the courage to read all that text but it was worth it i 100% agree

[Adoy]

Wow...I feel like I could take on the whole Empire by myself after reading that m/ I haven't even made it to the login screen yet(still 10 hours of patching to go, and that is not an exaggeration...digital downloads suck it) and was trying to decide whether to go blue or red.I have absolutely 0 EQ experience of anykind, never even seen the game played til today,watched a gameplay video; but It's been on my want list since the EQ game for the PS2 dropped.Always heard from others that this is the game to play.Anyways, I played PvP servers on WoW for years, but hell, my 10 year old son can do that.That game truly takes no skill to play, just get geared and you are the man,so reading this has really got my blood pumping.Considering that I have never played EQ ever I'm prepared for the murdering that will become me, but I am extremely excited to try this out.I guess my question is this, am I being completely unrealistic in wanting my very first EQ experience to be on a red server?I plan on playing a necro, cuz evil > good;and I completely understand the risk I'm taking...but,I don't know how to play a necro, or any class for that matter and wonder if getting a feel on a blue is a wiser choice.Jesus... I wish this thing would patch already, I wanna play!!!

[-Arctura-]

(( 2 years old and this thread still rings true 100%.whoever you are, author of the Laws of the JUngle... we /salute you!

[Kru]

<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><i>Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums.  I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place.  Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky.  I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved.  I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly.  And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago.  In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado: </i><b>------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: </b>This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing. Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle. <b>Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die. </b>There's no getting out of it. You did not come here to be safe. You were safe before. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. There is no way out of Law #1. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. If this bothers you, you made a mistake. <b>Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPG </b>You can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again. There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, you made a mistake. <b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed </b>All classes have advantages in certain situations. If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by <b>grouping</b> with someone who can complement them. You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. That's not PvP, that's <b>dueling</b>. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, what makes you think this is any different? And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing <b>everything</b> you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this. <b>Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survival </b>Any idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, he's not a coward, he's <b>smart</b>. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to <b>earn </b>that kill. If they get away, they survived. If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's <b>stupid.</b> Make them earn it! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill. If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, see Law #1. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. <b>Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god </b>Too many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1) PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality<b>. </b>You aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again. The safe servers are still where you left them.l <b>Law of the Jungle #6: It's still just a game </b>Playing on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult. If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, then it's not for you. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. If you are here because you want to enjoy it, but you're not, don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it. It is what it is. It's MEAN. And if  someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief. If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem. If you're not having fun, you made a mistake. This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you. All of these factors lead me to one final point. Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped  and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. The final, and truest Law of the Jungle:<b> LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.</b> </blockquote>Wow I got a good laugh out of this.I got to law #3.  In the middle of reading law #3, I thought to myself..man, this guy either knows nothing about PVP, or absolutely HATES solo'ing.  Low and behold I read who wrote this, and it's Become.  LOL.  I'm surprised this even got stickied.  (Become is notorious for running around with friends or stacked groups to help him PVP, and NEVER solo's.)Honestly, I stopped reading after rule #3.  Anybody who says this game was MEANT for group PVP, and nobody has a right to solo PVP is completely ignorant.  Nothing else about this posts seems absurd except for rule #3.If that wasn't bad enough, the rule itself is completely FALSE.  Nobody needs to be nerfed?  That's a patently false statement that I can prove in hundreds of different ways.  You want the proof?  Read almost every single liveupdate ever made to Everquest II.  You'll see the developers nerfing and buffing classes ALL THE TIME.  Why..may you ask, are they nerfing and buffing classes?  Because there's an imbalance, and ...wait...what's this....SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BE NERFED.  That's right ladies and gentleman.  Remember when en garde/inspiration was nerfed?  Why was it nerfed?  Because it needed to be.  So much so, the developers even agreed!  This proves law #3 to be false right off the bat.Whichever moderator stickied this thread is completely oblivious to PVP, and to Become's reputation and biased perspective.  GG mods.Edit- Note: I didn't realize that Become did not originally write this.  The fact he posted it and the fact it sounded so much like him made me believe he did.  I realize now he is just re-posting what somebody else wrote.  The fact still remains though, everything in and about law #3 is COMPLETELY BOGUS.  Just skip over it and read the other rules.

[Buttcliffe]

#4's debatable

[Mentle]

I'm a newb and probably have no right to reply...  but I found the main post very inspirational too.As a brand new EQ2 player desperate for as much useful information and inspiration as I can find, this kind of thing is what I want to read.From my small sample of this forum(I've been reading it avidly for a couple of weeks, and have read all the stickys) it does appear that 90% of the posts are really quite negative.Many of the posts also point to the fact that the server population is falling, well from my (probably very naive) perspective when a game is crying out for new players, and new players come along and read the forums which are of the 90% I mentioned above, it doesn't really fill them with... yes that same word again... inspirationI am old and ugly enough to take most of it with a pinch of salt, but maybe not everyone isI'd like to see MORE posts like this one, and some new posts offering advice for new players that has been written fairly recently as most of the stickys appear to be a few years old and due to updates etc may no longer be strictly accurate.When I've played a while, I hope to write some myself, which I hope may help another new player one day.

[Azekah1]

<cite>Countzero@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm a newb and probably have no right to reply...  but I found the main post very inspirational too.As a brand new EQ2 player desperate for as much useful information and inspiration as I can find, this kind of thing is what I want to read.From my small sample of this forum(I've been reading it avidly for a couple of weeks, and have read all the stickys) it does appear that 90% of the posts are really quite negative.Many of the posts also point to the fact that the server population is falling, well from my (probably very naive) perspective when a game is crying out for new players, and new players come along and read the forums which are of the 90% I mentioned above, it doesn't really fill them with... yes that same word again... inspirationI am old and ugly enough to take most of it with a pinch of salt, but maybe not everyone isI'd like to see MORE posts like this one, and some new posts offering advice for new players that has been written fairly recently as most of the stickys appear to be a few years old and due to updates etc may no longer be strictly accurate.When I've played a while, I hope to write some myself, which I hope may help another new player one day.</blockquote>If you do some searches you should find some more recent guides, though sadly, they get buried in the forums because they're usually responses to new players asking for help... and the stickeys havent been updated in a long time.