How to keep your toon funded and money making tips... LEGALLY! [Archive]

Dhurrty

06-15-2007, 06:29 PM

I have been asked a few times from guildies and friends so I will post my method of making plat. I know I know there will be many that will take issue with these methods, but since it goes on any ways and can't be stopped since it is a legal way I am going to help others. This is not a "go out and farm" dungeons, instances, nameds, or zones post. In fact, you can start making serious plat and never get past level 2 if you so desired."WHY??" some may ask I am I telling this to all? a.) it will help me sell my wares. b.) it inevitably will help the economy since more people will have plat to buy, less ppl will be buying plat, for I'm sure the plat sellers use this method as well. c.) I know that not everyone will try/do, so those that wish to afford those expensive selling rights, will be able to do so. and finally d.) Because in the long run, I will make more by letting everyone know the deal. By the end of this, you will see how I will make more."To make money you have to spend money"How true a statement. Its all about investing. Short term and long term. Though in the virtual worl the long term investing is in a matter of weeks, not years. Grab whatever coin you can muster. Even as little as 10 silver you can make LOTS of plat. Make sure you have a sales crates if not just a bag in the broker, selling from home is more lucrative then selling from just the broker. Yes, I am going to tell you how to play the market."Crafting Components"With as little as a few silver you can buy a Carbonite Cluster, which you turn around and put back on the broker with a mark-up. When it comes to playing the market on clusters, common and rares, it can become slow, so be patient. Also, it pays off in the long run to not be the highest priced. If you are the one with the most, and at a reasonable price, it is beneficial for others to shop you at your house since they can get stacks all in one place. Trying to "OWN" the market on a specific item, though can be lucrative, can also be devastating as fast as things are replaced once emptied when it comes to crafting components such as clusters. Make sure you know the average price of the item before you go and purchase to turn a profit. You also must keep in mind what you consider a "Healthy" profit from the items you invest in. Ie.) I buy Carbonite, Iron, FeyIron when they hit 1s. I turn around and sell for 10silver. Selling for 1g, though I may sell a couple, is not as lucrative as selling 100 at 10s.Through time you will get to know the average price of rare clusters on your server. Write them down if you have to. This will help you know what is a good buy and what is not. Ie.) Avg Steel Cluster Price on my server is 85g. Buying it at 80 really is not worth my time, for the 5g. Buying it at 50g is since I can make more money off of it, plus frees up the difference for me to spend if I would have bought it at 80. "Transmutting Fuels"Since transmutting was put in place, all of that worthless "TREASURED" gear that everyone complains is not worth it has become... well... worth it. Lvl 1-10 itmes are worth roughly 2-8 gold, depending on your server, and all they have to be in Treasured and attueneable. It does not matter what the stats are. At a minimum they can sell for an easy 4g. The same goes with adepts 1s. I am not going to get into what is transmutable, look at other posts for that. Even though these items sell for gold, many people still place them on the broker for silver. If you buy one lvl 10 item for 25silver and turn around and sell it for 4gold, thats a profit of 3gp 75 silver! GET THE PICTURE??? Yes this does take some time watching the broker, but since most people end up there on a regular basis to buy provisions, upgrades, etc, whats it hurt to look?How to look and save time: from the default broker window, click Advanced Search. You are going to save a search called treasured. Item Type: Attuneable Tier: TreasuredClick save and BAM! You have your shopping window to find transmutables to use as your investment. You can also change the "Treasured" part to Legendary or Fabled!ADEPT !s work the same way, go backto the default window and click advanced Search again. This you will save as Adepts Item type: Spell Scroll Tier: TreasuredYou can also do this for masters, but I recommend setting levels for the masters you wish to invest in. Alot of t6 M1s are very rare, but also may be outgrown with the upcomming expansion, so investor beware! Most lvl 63+ Masters are around 2p minimum, though some are on the broker for just a few gold. Supply and demand. Is it a worthless spell? Is it much of an upgrade from adept3? Are there alot of "pick your class" on my server that would want it? Are just a few things you need to consider when investing in master spells. Ie.) I find a level 68 M1 on the broker for 2p. I do a quick search and find out there is only one of those for sale on the server. I examine the master and realize it is a very good upgrade from the adept3 version. I do a /who all "pick your class" and find out there are over 100 lvl 67 of that class. Worth it, definitely. Even if I turn around and sell it for only 4p I make a profit. It should be a quick sale as well seeings the rarity as well as the demand for it will be. BEWARE! Make sure the master you buy does not have an M2 version that is widely used for it may detract in value. Also, the price you pick can come from like spells of that class, a "PC" in the chat channels, or just a random number that came to you in a dream. Selling masters can take a while.Typing " (m " into the search window is all you need to pull up all of the masters on the broker, some of which you can find for just a few silver!!!! Investing and playing the market can be tricky, exciting, fun, as well as devastating to your coin buying up the wrong items. It helps to stay informed on what stats help who, what are considered rares, and what happens to be new! Ie.) Sword of Pain sells anywhere from 3p50g to 50p. All depends on what someone is willing to pay for it. Also depends on how many have flooded the market, as well as how long you're willing to sit on that price.Buying up clusters is the fastest way to turn 10silver into 2g which you turn into 50g, which in turn turns into 10p. All it takes is time and information gathering. Good luck!The rest is up to you! As you will see in some of the responses to follow, alot of people take issue with this form of money making, even though it happens. Now everyone knows how to do it which evens the playing field. Which helps you buy the itmes you want, sells the items I sell, and helps people not buy plat, though some may and still will. Now you know one of the ways a plat seller can make money, you don't have to buy it from him

interstellarmatter

06-15-2007, 06:36 PM

I used to make a killing in WoW by dancing naked in the fountain in SW. People would just tip me 1 to 10 gold at a time. If they had better dance emotes here, that would one way for players to make a ton of money.

Ama

06-15-2007, 06:47 PM

Kaishod

06-15-2007, 06:51 PM

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote>I used to make a killing in WoW by dancing naked in the fountain in SW. People would just tip me 1 to 10 gold at a time. If they had better dance emotes here, that would one way for players to make a ton of money.</blockquote> Maybe I should try that with my Ogre... lol... ppl givin me money to put the clothes back on <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Nice idea OP... I have my main do all the selling, my alts are on a seperate acct and transfer all of the goods to my main to sell... Especially easier to buy things for alts if only one person is carrying the coin... One suggestion to those looking to make money... SELL EVERYTHING via the broker... making 1sp on the broker vs the vendor is still 1sp more towards what you want to buy.

tass

06-16-2007, 04:59 PM

eh if you want to make cash theres 2 ways. 1. Shinies. They give gold after gold after gold. 2. Farming. Kill a named over and over and loot its masters. Lets you stock up for alts and sell the others you dont want. 3. Farming for rares is another but sometimes that can take a looooong time. Ive found that shines are the easiest. I collect a bone sell it for 5g 10g sometimes 20g. Leaves, spiders, everything. With the new aa's everyone wants collections.

Lancaster38

06-18-2007, 05:19 PM

So, spend half my game time either staring at the broker screen or farming rares and shinies? I already have a boring job.

MadLordOfMilk

06-18-2007, 06:28 PM

Well if you wanna make money w/o staring at the broker or farming harvestable stuff non-stop, you have a few options... <ul><li>Harvest as you're walking around. For example, if I'm in a grinding group, I'll often pick up any shinies or harvestables that pop near the group.</li><li>Just sell everything on the broker. Simple enough.</li><li>Use the above strategies but don't spend all day doing them... just check when you log on, when you're about to log off, and inbetween groups when you're probably gonna head back to town and unload all your junk and such anyway. It only takes maybe 5-10min to look through a somewhat large list of stuff, and finding a group usually takes at least 5min anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></li><li>Quest. Quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest quest. A lot of quests give decent coin.</li><li>Craft... though this can take quite a bit of cash to become profitable. However, I'm sure those guys who always have basically every single adept3 from t6/7 in their sales crates make a lot of coin over time. Less extreme is just throwing up lower level gear at moderate prices - it's often in low/non-existent supply anyway (in terms of decent gear less than 4-5g). </li></ul>

Siogai

06-18-2007, 06:45 PM

<blockquote>Since transmutting was put in place, all of that worthless "TREASURED" gear that everyone complains is not worth it has become... well... worth it. Lvl 1-10 itmes are worth roughly 2-8 gold, depending on your server, and all they have to be in Treasured and attueneable. It does not matter what the stats are. At a minimum they can sell for an easy 4g. The same goes with adepts 1s. I am not going to get into what is transmutable, look at other posts for that. </blockquote> It's a whole lot easier to twink a newbie character through your guildbank and leave them farming the Isle for master/treasured drops for Transmuters. The easiest way I've found to make large sums of money (45p and running for a first-on-server character that's less than 6 months old) is to find your market and fill it. For me, that's been ammunition... arrows and throwing weapons, and Collectibles. I dont mind spending an hour or two a day running through a lower-tier zone, snagging some bugs, grass, body parts, whatever that zone has, then throwing them up on the broker for 2, 10, 20g less than the next guy... sure, it's less than what the next guy is charging, but it cost me exactly 0 to get, so it's 100% profit. I also do a lot of commission crafting, both in and out. Anyone who has ever made anything for me, at my commission, can tell you that I tip heavily. I like to think that my generosity in that direction has worked in reverse, as I've been well-compensated for my time in crafting bucklers, roundshields, bows and staves, not to mention a steady business in totems and ammo, for other people.

Notso

06-18-2007, 07:38 PM

These tips are not new, special or secretive. They are most often used by people running broker bots. You see them all the time standing in trade skill instances at the broker. Sometimes for three days in a row. Then they move to another trade skill instance and hope no one notices that they are again on for days at a time. That is how they do it without wasting their lives staring at a game without really playing. The result is price gouging to a point that new players cannot afford to buy collectables or raw materials. I've seen these players buy up hundreds of striped butterflies and try to sell them for 10 gold each. There are times when it is cheaper to buy a pristine imbued blackened iron weapon than it is to buy a blackened iron cluster. In real life the government breaks up monopolistic endeavors like this because it is harmful to the economy and to the public. Too bad the negative effects over overblown greed cannot be dealt with within the game.

DanaDark

06-18-2007, 07:44 PM

I remember when in EQ1 I would work the Bazaar... would spend maybe 2 hours a day buying things in bulk, marking up and selling...I wouldnt be terrible. Sometimes would find items for cheap, buy them, and sell them for their NORMAL price, unless I was the only one selling, then would mark up some. But then again, since I was actively there and also /auc people would talk to me and I'd work out prices to be lower or even accept trades.If EQ2's economy was like old EQ1 with Bazaar days (varied on days and locations from server to server), I would have sooo much fun. Bazaar in Luclin kinda ruined the fun aspect of it, but made my money making MUCH more efficient.

Mantell

06-18-2007, 08:00 PM

Market speculation is great if you can find a niche. You can't watch every item on the broker it'll take up all your time. Find what items tend to have a large spread in prices and buy them when they're cheap and sell them when they're expensive. This is common of harvested metal, stone and loam, they'll be 2c one day and 25s the next. This works on rares too of all tiers the numbers are just bigger and the spread smaller and you have more invested in the speculation. Is 25g a good price for a steel cluster? Maybe, but if the next day they're going for a couple plat it was a good deal.Shinies can be worth a lot but the rare ones are rare for a reason and you could come back after an hour of searching to find that you've only made a few gold. Harvesting, for that very reason, isn't a great way to make money. It'll take you an hour to harvest four stacks of metal and it may or may not be worth anything today. If you had just come back on the right day you could've gotten four stacks of metal for 4s in about 10 seconds. Let other people harvest for you.Farming is hit or miss. You need to find a named you can solo and always be there when it pops and hope it drops something good. Not worth it.Tradeskilling common items is almost always a long-term money loser. There are niches but most of them are well filled.All of the techniques listed will make money. But for me the best way has been to watch the price of rares, buy them when they are cheap and make something out of them to sell. For me that has been Adept IIIs made from rare loam. I keep a general list of the average price for rare loam on my server and every time I see loam going for a low price I buy it. Then I figure out which A3s will sell and I make those. The markup is 50-100% depending on the market for the A3. The key is to be aware of both sides of the market. Be aware of what Spongy Loam costs on average and be aware specifically what you can get for a given spell. Likewise if you do weaponsmithing be aware of what Xegonite clusters should cost and what they can make and what you can sell that for. I've made and spent over 1000 plat on the broker. 800 of that came from potions, adept iiis and shinies.

HemoragiK

06-18-2007, 09:30 PM

<cite>Notso wrote:</cite><blockquote>These tips are not new, special or secretive. They are most often used by people running broker bots. You see them all the time standing in trade skill instances at the broker. Sometimes for three days in a row. Then they move to another trade skill instance and hope no one notices that they are again on for days at a time. That is how they do it without wasting their lives staring at a game without really playing. The result is price gouging to a point that new players cannot afford to buy collectables or raw materials. I've seen these players buy up hundreds of striped butterflies and try to sell them for 10 gold each. There are times when it is cheaper to buy a pristine imbued blackened iron weapon than it is to buy a blackened iron cluster. In real life the government breaks up monopolistic endeavors like this because it is harmful to the economy and to the public. Too bad the negative effects over overblown greed cannot be dealt with within the game.</blockquote>I agree with you. However, people sometimes mistake me for a bot, and I assure you I am not a bot. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sometimes I will stand in front of a broker for hours (if I fall asleep at the keyboard) or for an hour at a time hunting the people who put items up for well under what they are worth. I have seen people at the broker for days, though. If someone is there for days, they must be a bot, IMO. Especially when they are continuously trying to corner specific markets.

Rahatmattata

06-18-2007, 09:51 PM

They could just as easily be dead IRL or unexpectedly afk for a few days... it happens.

MadLordOfMilk

06-18-2007, 11:07 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>They could just as easily be dead IRL or unexpectedly afk for a few days... it happens.</blockquote>"[Removed for Content], I DIDN'T GET THAT ITEM!" *bangs forehead on desk too hard* *falls over dead* Seriously though, I doubt that the large number of people standing outside of brokers has all that many people who're dead. <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lortet

06-19-2007, 12:08 AM

I see the obligatory "it's actions like this that destroy the economy" post has been made - this attitude seems to fail to notice that when they are out adventuring they get drops, that this "destroyed" economy makes worthwhile to sell. I remember when low level adepts were only worth a few silver each - but the masters etc were still worth a lot of gold. It would take about 50 adepts sold to buy a master, or the rare to make an Adept 3 (hint harvest your own instead) - now you can get about 5 adept 1 drops, sell them for enough gold to buy something even better than before - this is an improvement, not a worsening of the economy!I can fill my 260 sales slots with dropped treasureds, shinies, masters etc with a turnover of about 20% of the content every day - and yes I also do a bit of speculative buying and reselling as well.

Kaishod

06-19-2007, 02:08 PM

<cite>HemoragiK wrote:</cite><blockquote> I have seen people at the broker for days, though. If someone is there for days, they must be a bot, IMO. Especially when they are continuously trying to corner specific markets. </blockquote>I go AFK at the broker. I don't try to corner the market. But if I see only one shiny listed for 1gp, and I have one, you can guarantee that its getting bought up and I may list them for 1p. I stay AFK at the broker when I'm not playing. I have 2 businesses, a wife, and a child on the way(for all those that understand the moodiness of a preggo woman) so only have a few minutes here and there until late at night or when I can hide in my home office to play. I hate waiting the 5 mins to load the game. Why AFK at the broker? I like seeing it make money. I get a "sellers" high, prolly the entrepreneur in me. Plus, I'm a transmutter, well... saving up my fragments to spend the time for the skill ups. So feel like I am playing for those few minutes. If its only buying something at the broker that me or one of my alts will eventually get to use, that someone priced at lower then vendor prices.Dead, no, lol... a broker bot? wish I had the lack of morals to make money that way, but NO. Another way for those looking for money, though may take some time and not a get rich quick scheme. BSV. Of course you would have to waste the time fighting grey mobs, but I normally walk out with about 20g plus about 50 relics in 20-30 minutes. Pays my status and rent, lol

Lancaster38

06-19-2007, 03:20 PM

<cite>Kaishodan wrote:</cite><blockquote>HemoragiK wrote: I don't try to corner the market. But if I see only one shiny listed for 1gp, and I have one, you can guarantee that its getting bought up and I may list them for 1p. Dead, no, lol... a broker bot? wish I had the lack of morals to make money that way, but NO. </blockquote> But you are cornering the market, and at a significant markup.

Freliant

06-19-2007, 06:21 PM

<cite>Dhurrty wrote:</cite><blockquote>"To make money you have to spend money"..."Crafting Components"With as little as a few silver you can buy a Carbonite Cluster, which you turn around and put back on the broker with a mark-up. When it comes to playing the market on clusters, common and rares, it can become slow, so be patient. Also, it pays off in the long run to not be the highest priced. If you are the one with the most, and at a reasonable price, it is beneficial for others to shop you at your house since they can get stacks all in one place. Trying to "OWN" the market on a specific item, though can be lucrative, can also be devastating as fast as things are replaced once emptied when it comes to crafting components such as clusters. Make sure you know the average price of the item before you go and purchase to turn a profit. You also must keep in mind what you consider a "Healthy" profit from the items you invest in. Ie.) I buy Carbonite, Iron, FeyIron when they hit 1s. I turn around and sell for 10silver. Selling for 1g, though I may sell a couple, is not as lucrative as selling 100 at 10s.Through time you will get to know the average price of rare clusters on your server. Write them down if you have to. This will help you know what is a good buy and what is not. Ie.) Avg Steel Cluster Price on my server is 85g. Buying it at 80 really is not worth my time, for the 5g. Buying it at 50g is since I can make more money off of it, plus frees up the difference for me to spend if I would have bought it at 80. Even though these items sell for gold, many people still place them on the broker for silver. If you buy one lvl 10 item for 25silver and turn around and sell it for 4gold, thats a profit of 3gp 75 silver! GET THE PICTURE??? Yes this does take some time watching the broker, but since most people end up there on a regular basis to buy provisions, upgrades, etc, whats it hurt to look? ...You can also do this for masters, but I recommend setting levels for the masters you wish to invest in. Alot of t6 M1s are very rare, but also may be outgrown with the upcomming expansion, so investor beware! Most lvl 63+ Masters are around 2p minimum, though some are on the broker for just a few gold. Supply and demand. Is it a worthless spell? Is it much of an upgrade from adept3? Are there alot of "pick your class" on my server that would want it? Are just a few things you need to consider when investing in master spells. Ie.) I find a level 68 M1 on the broker for 2p. I do a quick search and find out there is only one of those for sale on the server. I examine the master and realize it is a very good upgrade from the adept3 version. I do a /who all "pick your class" and find out there are over 100 lvl 67 of that class. Worth it, definitely. Even if I turn around and sell it for only 4p I make a profit. It should be a quick sale as well seeings the rarity as well as the demand for it will be. BEWARE! Make sure the master you buy does not have an M2 version that is widely used for it may detract in value. Also, the price you pick can come from like spells of that class, a "PC" in the chat channels, or just a random number that came to you in a dream. Selling masters can take a while.Typing " (m " into the search window is all you need to pull up all of the masters on the broker, some of which you can find for just a few silver!!!! Investing and playing the market can be tricky, exciting, fun, as well as devastating to your coin buying up the wrong items. It helps to stay informed on what stats help who, what are considered rares, and what happens to be new! Ie.) Sword of Pain sells anywhere from 3p50g to 50p. All depends on what someone is willing to pay for it. Also depends on how many have flooded the market, as well as how long you're willing to sit on that price.Buying up clusters is the fastest way to turn 10silver into 2g which you turn into 50g, which in turn turns into 10p. All it takes is time and information gathering. Good luck!...</blockquote>The practice you have described is also known as price Gouging, and while it is not strictly against the TOS, it is still very much frowned upon by everyone in the community. Those are the actions that ruin economies. FFXI was ruined by this. Those with the money would buy every item of one type in existance and would then sell it for an insane amount of coin, which would be normally impossible to get unless you buy the coin from a third party vendor, which IS against the TOS. These people would then both get the money and the coin, and would proceed to continue to buy out the market ad infinium. Then the only people that can actually buy or sell are those that go to the third party sites and buy coin.Do not artificially inflate prices by buying all of one type in existance (even if its just one) to just sell it forward at an inflated price. Its a very unsavory practice. Its the equivalent of being the unwilling goods carrier of a drug lord. All you know, is you are getting good money, and are blinding yourself to all the damage that it does to everyone else.

DanaDark

06-19-2007, 06:24 PM

I've pretty much said screw the broker... I just give away my stuff to guildies or n00bs... and usually my guildies just give me the masters they find that I can use, or adepts or what not...Screw money! ><

Kaishod

06-19-2007, 10:54 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>The practice you have described is also known as price Gouging, and while it is not strictly against the TOS, it is still very much frowned upon by everyone in the community. Those are the actions that ruin economies. FFXI was ruined by this. Those with the money would buy every item of one type in existance and would then sell it for an insane amount of coin, which would be normally impossible to get unless you buy the coin from a third party vendor, which IS against the TOS. These people would then both get the money and the coin, and would proceed to continue to buy out the market ad infinium. Then the only people that can actually buy or sell are those that go to the third party sites and buy coin.Do not artificially inflate prices by buying all of one type in existance (even if its just one) to just sell it forward at an inflated price. Its a very unsavory practice. Its the equivalent of being the unwilling goods carrier of a drug lord. All you know, is you are getting good money, and are blinding yourself to all the damage that it does to everyone else. </blockquote> Since every item can be construed as "in high demand"or can have no one else selling any price would be considered gouging. It is the buyer that sets the standards for prices. If i want to put all of my tin clusters for 10p/ea, its my perrogative to do so. Its when people buy said item at 10p is when the standard is set. If anyone decided to put all of their "pick your Uber Rare" item on the broker for 1copper, I consider them a supplier. Me, a seller, buys said item, and in turn puts them on the broker for near the next lowest price listed. Plus, its near impossible to corner a rapidly supplied market in anything. If while shopping, I notice "UBER HELM of BADASSOSITY" for 30plat, by one seller, the next day its gone, a few days later a different seller is selling it for 5g, I see nothing wrong with taking that and selling it for 15p, since 30p was a standard set and was sold. Or when someone puts all of their steel clusters on the market for 10silver, and all the rest of them are listed at 80gold, I see no problem with buying them and listing them for 75 or 90gold. It happens in capitalism. Someone sells for low, someone buys it, someone sells it for higher. The same people that make the $10 Old Navy jeans are almost the same ppl that make the $200 Diesel ones. Just one person decided to raise the price more. The beautiful thing about capitalism is the market always corrects itself. When sellers post too high buyers stop buying. The more money in a buyers pocket, the more they tend to spend

Lortet

06-19-2007, 11:00 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>The practice you have described is also known as price Gouging, and while it is not strictly against the TOS, it is still very much frowned upon by everyone in the community. Those are the actions that ruin economies. FFXI was ruined by this. Those with the money would buy every item of one type in existance and would then sell it for an insane amount of coin, which would be normally impossible to get unless you buy the coin from a third party vendor, which IS against the TOS. These people would then both get the money and the coin, and would proceed to continue to buy out the market ad infinium. Then the only people that can actually buy or sell are those that go to the third party sites and buy coin.Do not artificially inflate prices by buying all of one type in existance (even if its just one) to just sell it forward at an inflated price. Its a very unsavory practice. Its the equivalent of being the unwilling goods carrier of a drug lord. All you know, is you are getting good money, and are blinding yourself to all the damage that it does to everyone else. </blockquote> Nice argument - but............. "all of one type in existence" - everything in this game is generated over and over - so even if you buy every steel cluster "in existence" and price it up - someone will harvest another, or pull one out of his/her storage bags and list it - hey - the current price might be so high that someone actually heads out and harvests their own!Recently I wanted a decent rapier for my baby swashie - someone had a number (4) of a nice one but was undoubtedly "gouging" (sarcasm off) and charging about 50g for a lvl 19 rapier - A quick check of alakhazam, a trip to FG and I had my own in about 1 hour. Moral - if someone is "gouging" - go out and get your own - no-one is forced to buy any given item for a given price, but it is anyones right to buy and sell for what they wish. Like any market - price too high and you won't have sales. If items are priced high it is most likely they are selling for that amount - the only other reason would be that they are in storage with a rediculous price on them - just in casea desparate buyer comes along. (I did that with some spongy loam once - priced it at 3p and it sold the next week - replaced it the following week for 80g each)

Ssyzr

06-20-2007, 04:38 AM

Notso wrote: "The result is price gouging to a point that new players cannot afford to buy collectables or raw materials. I've seen these players buy up hundreds of striped butterflies and try to sell them for 10 gold each. There are times when it is cheaper to buy a pristine imbued blackened iron weapon than it is to buy a blackened iron cluster." *** This is not the case. The actual result would be that players can now sell collectables or raw materials for much more than what they had been able to previously. The likely result being that the reseller is now committed to buy up these new items or have to sit on his overpriced goods. End result - the "new player" makes more money than he would have been able to otherwise. If the market shows that its cheaper to buy a blackened iron weapon than the rare - then it shows that now is a great time to buy weapons or farm blackened iron. There is no monopoly and no price gouging when anyone anytime can go farm the same items that some people are overpricing. The word "overpricing" is not even correct. If people are willing to spend 10 gold on striped butterflies then it is not overpriced. If the item is so common that others feel 10 gold is too steep they are certainly able to go farm a ton more and sell them for less. Notso writes: "In real life the government breaks up monopolistic endeavors like this because it is harmful to the economy and to the public." *** This is only true of monopolies. The fact is that in EQ2 a monopoly on items is virtually impossible. Outside of people restricting access to flag mobs or some such endeavor there is no way to retain a monopoly on items for any length of time. Buying up harvesting materials or collectables does not affect players ability to get it themselves. The only effect that I have seen from increased prices since the start of this game is that now a "new player" can make money much much faster than previously. My friend joined eq2 and was able to buy a 5pp horse in the first week of gameplay with no help from me. He is wearing better gear than I was ever able to wear. He is now playing in a game that has a market set up that a few hours in commonlands (cracked bones) can get a new player set up in masters and playermades. A few more hours and a horse and 3 bedroom house is not out of the question. "New players" that spend any time pricing out the junk in their inventory at the broker soon discover that money is not an issue. Thank the resellers and the high levels for being willing to pay more - the result is new players having an easy time gearing up at the start. --------------- Sorry for the lack of quote boxes. I am unfamiliar with this forum and not sure of all the codes.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 09:09 AM

Deciding to put your items at a higher price than everyone else is not what is concidered price gouging. It is the act of buying all the LOWER priced items and placing them at a higher price, thereby artificially inflating the price of an item. This is ussually done with items that are in high demand and/or hard to obtain. These items would ALREADY sell for more than their counterparts, but they get seriously overinflated because a few greedy players want to make money. And saying that it helps the economy is very misguided. I think you are confusing normal market fluctuations and artificial inflation. Here are some examples:1) Player XYZ is starting a new toon and so are a few of his closest friends. He is a weaponsmith and his friend is an armorsmith, and they proceed to buy much of the metal rares to make their weapons and armor. Now, the broker only has the few rare metals that were a bit too highly priced for the collection of friends to buy. To player ABC that has been watchign the market to buy things for himself, all he notices is that the prices of rare metals has "gone up", and that its cheaper to buy the finished product instead, or to go out and harvest said metal and sell at the currently going price. - This is normal market fluctuation, and it happens all the time.2) Player JRK This player scours the market, not because he needs anything, but looking for a quick way to make money. He looks for items that he has seen before sell at higher prices, but that now, because of market fluctuations, are priced below what he has seen. He then buys all items below a price range and places them at a higher price. No types of items are safe, and the rarer the item, the higher the price he re-sells it at. He didn't work for any of the items, all he is doing is artificially inflating the prices of the items for his own gain, and everyone elses detriment.

Ssyzr

06-20-2007, 09:21 AM

The only detriment being that people may have to go out and farm the same items and place them up for sale in a market that will now make them more money than previously. Perhaps though they need the item... and will be forced to wait for someone to price it at a lower price or go farm the item themselves. Both of these choices are an inconvenience but hardly gamebreaking.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 09:50 AM

Ssyzr@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>The only detriment being that people may have to go out and farm the same items and place them up for sale in a market that will now make them more money than previously. Perhaps though they need the item... and will be forced to wait for someone to price it at a lower price or go farm the item themselves. Both of these choices are an inconvenience but hardly gamebreaking. </blockquote> lol, so your logic is: its not hurting anyone, its just making them go out and play the game? Dude, you are still forcing people that are unable to (for one reason or another) go out and get the items themselves, pay an unfair price only because of the greed of a few.And yes, it does hurt the economy, specially if the practice becomes generally accepted. Think about it, if a few people can corner the market on most of the rares, then what happens if hundreds of players per server decide to do that as well? You have a nightmare economy where all items are priced much higher than what they are worth, and even though you will be making more money, you will also be using an insane amount of money to get your own items. AKA Inflation. That is very detrimental to the server economy.

jagermonsta

06-20-2007, 10:01 AM

Is there a real point to spending ALL this time trying to make money in a video game? <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have never seen the need to own 70 platinum in Everquest at low tiers... by the time your 70 getting rare masters/fable you'll be making/spending that amount left and right... If I'm going to spend an extra 12 hours a week trying to make "money" I'll work overtime at my real job. <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Karlen

06-20-2007, 10:18 AM

>>>Dude, you are still forcing people that are unable to (for one reason or another) go out and get the items themselves, pay an unfair price only because of the greed of a few.<<< If you are unable to "go out and get the items" (ie adventure), you don't really need items, do you? If you aren't going to fight mobs (I have gotten quite a few masters off of blue solo mobs which anyone can kill with limited upgrading), then you don't need to upgrade your character. There are no "needed" items that you can't get by either harvesting or doing solo quests. Anyone can harvest in areas with mobs of their level, which are the areas that will provide the rare items needed for someone that level. Noone has to buy things off the broker. If you believe that a price is too high on the broker, you can go and get the item yourself and sell it for that outrageous price. If you don't consider the price high enough to warrant you making the effort to get the item yourself, then you don't consider the price "too high". >>>You have a nightmare economy where all items are priced much higher than what they are worth<<< If things are priced higher than they are worth, then they won't sell. Supply will increase and sooner or later, someone will break ranks and drop the price on their items in order to unload them. If an item sells, it is by definition not priced higher than it is worth.

Siclone

06-20-2007, 10:30 AM

as far as I am concerned there is only one way to make money in this game....shinies?......no,,,you can make small change only unless you get really luckycrafting?.......no, not really, there are so many crafters often stuff is sold on the broker at cost.grouping to kill named?....................no, cause the named are to few and far between and you have to share loot with groupcome on folks, what do the pro's do? you know are good friends the plat farmers. They do it for a living and they dont do anything anyone listed here. THEY SOLO GREEN SOLO MOBS. you make tons of money this way, and guess what, your chance of getting a master is greater soloing solo mobs then grouping. thats right. I just got a master last night from a green solo mob and made 5 p. With solo mobs, you can make 1 to 30 p an hour. best way be far, dont belive me? ask a plat farmer

Freliant

06-20-2007, 10:32 AM

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>>>>Dude, you are still forcing people that are unable to (for one reason or another) go out and get the items themselves, pay an unfair price only because of the greed of a few.<<< If you are unable to "go out and get the items" (ie adventure), you don't really need items, do you? If you aren't going to fight mobs (I have gotten quite a few masters off of blue solo mobs which anyone can kill with limited upgrading), then you don't need to upgrade your character. There are no "needed" items that you can't get by either harvesting or doing solo quests. Anyone can harvest in areas with mobs of their level, which are the areas that will provide the rare items needed for someone that level. Noone has to buy things off the broker. If you believe that a price is too high on the broker, you can go and get the item yourself and sell it for that outrageous price. If you don't consider the price high enough to warrant you making the effort to get the item yourself, then you don't consider the price "too high". >>>You have a nightmare economy where all items are priced much higher than what they are worth<<< If things are priced higher than they are worth, then they won't sell. Supply will increase and sooner or later, someone will break ranks and drop the price on their items in order to unload them. If an item sells, it is by definition not priced higher than it is worth. </blockquote>Unfortunately, you are oversimplifying things. Take into concideration the EOF collectables. Regardless of tier are HIGHLY overpriced. Do you really believe that a T3 collectable should be worth 1 and 2 plat? Even the T7 collectable are worth 10+ Plat. Is the reward so grand that it justifies the price? Not at all.Its true, no one HAS to buy things off broker, but that is not what we are discussing. It has to do with fair trade among players. I got something you need, and you probably have something I need, but since we never meet, then the exchange of coin for items, and then those items back for coin makes the cycle complete. Make all the excuses you want for greed... its still greed. Normal adventuring and selling of prices is good and expected, but buying other people's work and pricing it higher just to make money at someone elses expense is just sad.

KBern

06-20-2007, 10:35 AM

My advice is simple.Kill stuff and sell the loots.Has worked for me since EQ2 came out.

KBern

06-20-2007, 10:39 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>>>>Dude, you are still forcing people that are unable to (for one reason or another) go out and get the items themselves, pay an unfair price only because of the greed of a few.<<< If you are unable to "go out and get the items" (ie adventure), you don't really need items, do you? If you aren't going to fight mobs (I have gotten quite a few masters off of blue solo mobs which anyone can kill with limited upgrading), then you don't need to upgrade your character. There are no "needed" items that you can't get by either harvesting or doing solo quests. Anyone can harvest in areas with mobs of their level, which are the areas that will provide the rare items needed for someone that level. Noone has to buy things off the broker. If you believe that a price is too high on the broker, you can go and get the item yourself and sell it for that outrageous price. If you don't consider the price high enough to warrant you making the effort to get the item yourself, then you don't consider the price "too high". >>>You have a nightmare economy where all items are priced much higher than what they are worth<<< If things are priced higher than they are worth, then they won't sell. Supply will increase and sooner or later, someone will break ranks and drop the price on their items in order to unload them. If an item sells, it is by definition not priced higher than it is worth. </blockquote>Unfortunately, you are oversimplifying things. Take into concideration the EOF collectables. Regardless of tier are HIGHLY overpriced. Do you really believe that a T3 collectable should be worth 1 and 2 plat? Even the T7 collectable are worth 10+ Plat. Is the reward so grand that it justifies the price? Not at all.Its true, no one HAS to buy things off broker, but that is not what we are discussing. It has to do with fair trade among players. I got something you need, and you probably have something I need, but since we never meet, then the exchange of coin for items, and then those items back for coin makes the cycle complete. Make all the excuses you want for greed... its still greed. Normal adventuring and selling of prices is good and expected, but buying other people's work and pricing it higher just to make money at someone elses expense is just sad. </blockquote>Sorry it is not greed at all. If people pay the price, the buyer thought it was a fair enough price for them to shell out the cash for it.Greed implies many nasty things...one of which is taking advantage of people. No one forces anyone to buy anything off the broker.It is not simply the "turn in reward" for the collection that makes the value of that one collectible. It is the reward + the exp gain (which leads to fast PLing for those of us with mains with cash) + the completion of a collection (which many people pride themselves on completing as many as possible) + AA exp (which gets to be hard to collect as time goes on) + any number of other personal reasons.If someone values that Yellow Sand at 5pp to them, it is a fair price. Some collectibles are priced way to high for me to buy, but that doesnt mean it isnt considered a fair price for someone else with other reasons to want that item and has the cash to spend. Afterall, this is all just monolopy money anyway.

Karlen

06-20-2007, 10:40 AM

>>>Unfortunately, you are oversimplifying things. Take into concideration the EOF collectables. Regardless of tier are HIGHLY overpriced. Do you really believe that a T3 collectable should be worth 1 and 2 plat? Even the T7 collectable are worth 10+ Plat. Is the reward so grand that it justifies the price? Not at all.<<< Collectables are indeed a good example. We are talking about the little ?s that we see on the ground and that anyone can walk up and pick up? If you don't want to pay a plat for a collectable, go to the zone and pick up ?s. Anyone can do this and you don't need to kill any mobs. They are free for anyone to take. Go and get them and sell them yourself and you will have lots of money to buy stuff. If they aren't rare and not worth a platinum (as you imply), then those people selling them for a plat will eventually lose their shirts collecting all the ?s on the market. You should be able to make lots of money collecting them yourself and selling them for 75g to the hoarders which will drive them out of business sooner. If they are rare, maybe they are worth a plat? I went to New Tunaria the other day to collect there. I found all the spearheads and vases easily except for gold vases, of which I need two. They are selling for a plat. Perhaps that is because they are truly rare (and you need twice as many of them as the others)? If the reward is not so grand that it is worth the price, then don't buy it off the broker. If people aren't paying a plat for T3 collectables, then the people selling them for a plat won't make money. If people are buying them for a plat, then they are worth a plat.

Ssyzr

06-20-2007, 10:58 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ssyzr@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>The only detriment being that people may have to go out and farm the same items and place them up for sale in a market that will now make them more money than previously. Perhaps though they need the item... and will be forced to wait for someone to price it at a lower price or go farm the item themselves. Both of these choices are an inconvenience but hardly gamebreaking. </blockquote> lol, so your logic is: its not hurting anyone, its just making them go out and play the game? Dude, you are still forcing people that are unable to (for one reason or another) go out and get the items themselves, pay an unfair price only because of the greed of a few.And yes, it does hurt the economy, specially if the practice becomes generally accepted. Think about it, if a few people can corner the market on most of the rares, then what happens if hundreds of players per server decide to do that as well? You have a nightmare economy where all items are priced much higher than what they are worth, and even though you will be making more money, you will also be using an insane amount of money to get your own items. AKA Inflation. That is very detrimental to the server economy.</blockquote> Perhaps we are talking about something different? The examples given by Notso were collectables and raw materials. What prices would you consider "much higher than what they are worth"? Is there a reccomended price stamped on the item? An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay - what does it matter if that person is a re-seller? If the reseller has priced the item in an attempt to corner the market then all those who he bought from have recieved the price they asked for when they listed that item. All others who find the item are then free to price at what they feel is correct - regardless of how many the reseller is holding. When you say that a reseller is "forcing people that are unable to get the item themselves" , how can such an action be true? A reseller does not gain the ability to prevent other players from listing the item cheaper. He may have forced the player to wait, or pay more, but he has not stopped anyone from attaining an item permanently. It does not hurt the economy, it may stagnate the sales of that particular item for a short period of time - but there is no actual damage. The act of reselling has been done since the game went live and I don't see the effects of any such damage yet. What I do see however is new players having a much larger bankroll than was possible at the onset of the game. You asked what happens if hundreds of people start reselling, and then concluded that you would have a "nightmare economy". I would ask you if you see this nightmare economy now? Hundreds of people resell items daily per server. The increased cost per item in the current economy cannot be blamed soley on the reseller, inflation is cause by too much coin entering the market and not enough removed from the server. Sony tries to curb this effect by things such as rent on houses, item repairs, and broker fees; interestingly enough more money is drawn out of the economy each time an item is resold in the broker. I have watched certain items that I have bought, sold, and watched climb up the broker price, each time drawing more coin out of the server. Not all resellers are malicious in intent. Though I have seen some resellers trying to corner a market, and horde hundreds (perhaps thousands) of a particular item, these are not the norm. Most often they have little or no impact on me (the buyer) as I simply refuse to pay the price and go get it myself or wait until someone prices it lower. I can think of nothing that I have run into in the game that I have had to pay absurd prices. ***1 gold tier one loam comes to mind - I simply went out and farmed it myself. Most resellers, myself included, simply buy up items that are quite obviously underpriced and mark them up for a profit. Regardless of what you think is right or wrong - if someone puts an item (say a DB Pine Needle) for way to cheap (say 2 gold) I am going to buy it and put it back on the market for a few gold less than the standard price that I know people are willing to pay ( say 1-2 platinum ). Now if suddenly I see that there are 40 db pine needles up for sale for 2 g I will start asking around and see if Sony changed the drop rate or some such thing. I run into people who frequently underprice by large margins and I will continue to purchace them - I would hate to let folks create a nightmare economy where everything is so cheap its not worth farming or tradeskilling. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaedi

06-20-2007, 10:59 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>>>>Dude, you are still forcing people that are unable to (for one reason or another) go out and get the items themselves, pay an unfair price only because of the greed of a few.<<< If you are unable to "go out and get the items" (ie adventure), you don't really need items, do you? If you aren't going to fight mobs (I have gotten quite a few masters off of blue solo mobs which anyone can kill with limited upgrading), then you don't need to upgrade your character. There are no "needed" items that you can't get by either harvesting or doing solo quests. Anyone can harvest in areas with mobs of their level, which are the areas that will provide the rare items needed for someone that level. Noone has to buy things off the broker. If you believe that a price is too high on the broker, you can go and get the item yourself and sell it for that outrageous price. If you don't consider the price high enough to warrant you making the effort to get the item yourself, then you don't consider the price "too high". >>>You have a nightmare economy where all items are priced much higher than what they are worth<<< If things are priced higher than they are worth, then they won't sell. Supply will increase and sooner or later, someone will break ranks and drop the price on their items in order to unload them. If an item sells, it is by definition not priced higher than it is worth. </blockquote>Unfortunately, you are oversimplifying things. Take into concideration the EOF collectables. Regardless of tier are HIGHLY overpriced. Do you really believe that a T3 collectable should be worth 1 and 2 plat? Even the T7 collectable are worth 10+ Plat. Is the reward so grand that it justifies the price? Not at all.Its true, no one HAS to buy things off broker, but that is not what we are discussing. It has to do with fair trade among players. I got something you need, and you probably have something I need, but since we never meet, then the exchange of coin for items, and then those items back for coin makes the cycle complete. Make all the excuses you want for greed... its still greed. Normal adventuring and selling of prices is good and expected, but buying other people's work and pricing it higher just to make money at someone elses expense is just sad. </blockquote>Half of that problem is the Expert Collection which requires the rare from each of the EoF collections and then opens up the "blue shinies" via the rewarded goggles. Plat for a grub or beetle from Gfay? No thanks, I'll roll the dice and be patient waiting for said shinies to fall into my bag the old fashioned way ... harvesting while walking uphill both ways to and from the broker in three feet of snow in summer ... barefoot.In the end though, the players do control the market. It's a personal choice wether to buy the item or not; lack of demand affects the pricing as much as does an influx of supply.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 11:02 AM

Ok, lets take it a different way then: The middle-East provides oil for many different nations. It puts it for sale at $80.00 a barrel. Some other nations are also selling oil, and are undercutting the Middle east by selling their oil at $40.00 a barrel. South-American companies also see this, and put their oil at $35.00. The middle eastern companys see the drop in prices, and instead of reducing their prices, they decide to Pay all the other oil producing nations for their oil, and then resells that oil at $80.00 or more. Question: Is that fair?Depending on how you answer, it will show you what's in your heart in this issue. Just because you force people into a certain price range, doesn't mean you are not being greedy, or that you are not ruining an economy in the process.

KBern

06-20-2007, 11:08 AM

People need to stop trying to use RW examples to justify their opinion of sales in a video game.You would need to add the caveat that Oil can be found by anyone that wants it but does not want to take the time to find it.

Karlen

06-20-2007, 11:59 AM

>>> Not all resellers are malicious in intent.<<< I'm a woodworker. I check the market periodically and scoop up and ironwood or ebony that is under 50g. Sometimes I stash my stacks of ebony and ironwood on the market board and price them at 85g. I don't really want to sell them, but if someone is desperate for ebony and is willing to pay 85g, they are welcome to it. For anything less than that, I'd sooner keep the stack of ebonies as supply for making weapons. For me, ebonies are worth 50-60g. I usually sell my weapons for between a plat and 1p20g. Anything more and they don't move. Anything less and it isn't worth the investment (it costs around 15g in fuel as well). I can still make a bit of money if I buy for 60-70g, but if the going price is 85g, I make more money selling my raws. However, even at 85g, I don't consider that an unreasonable price, as I never seem to get rares when I harvest so its not worth me trying to do it myself. If they were selling for 1.5p, I'd be in the Bonemire fast harvesting.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 12:27 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>People need to stop trying to use RW examples to justify their opinion of sales in a video game.You would need to add the caveat that Oil can be found by anyone that wants it but does not want to take the time to find it.</blockquote> So you are saying that I couldn't, with enough resources go out and get oil myself? My example is sound. If you want a gaming example, just replace "Oil Barrel" with Ebon Cluster.

Raveller

06-20-2007, 12:39 PM

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>I have gotten quite a few masters off of blue solo mobs which anyone can kill with limited upgrading </blockquote>Now I know you're liar. I've killed a lot of mobs and have never seen a master drop off of anything other than a Named, and Nameds are not considered blue solo mobs unless you're already legendary/fabled and mastered when you fight it.

KBern

06-20-2007, 12:46 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>People need to stop trying to use RW examples to justify their opinion of sales in a video game.You would need to add the caveat that Oil can be found by anyone that wants it but does not want to take the time to find it.</blockquote> So you are saying that I couldn't, with enough resources go out and get oil myself? My example is sound. If you want a gaming example, just replace "Oil Barrel" with Ebon Cluster.</blockquote>No you couldnt.Everyone would need to have the same ability, as they do now, in the game. That is not the case in RW examples and that is why they cannot be used.Every person has the same exact ability to go out and harvest that rare shiny in a game, not everyone has the same ability to find and drill for oil.

Armawk

06-20-2007, 12:54 PM

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote> Now I know you're liar. I've killed a lot of mobs and have never seen a master drop off of anything other than a Named, and Nameds are not considered blue solo mobs unless you're already legendary/fabled and mastered when you fight it.</blockquote> Be careful, it is certainly possible for masters to drop from "trash mobs", many many people will (and have) confirmed this. The possibility is small but it is there.As for pricing, people can charge what they will. Dont want to pay it dont pay it. tadaaaaa

Karlen

06-20-2007, 01:15 PM

>>>Now I know you're liar. I've killed a lot of mobs and have never seen a master drop off of anything other than a Named, and Nameds are not considered blue solo mobs unless you're already legendary/fabled and mastered when you fight it.<<< I've seen it in a number of zones but most recently doing writs in KoS (both 60-65 sentries writs [mobs 55-59] and 65+ basilisks/horrors writs [mobs 66-68] ) I get a master drop every 10-15 writs. Also, there are solo nameds, although I don't recall ever getting a master off one -- sometimes they do drop some good stuff though. I wore the jewelery from the storm cell nameds (the three of them in TT) for several levels.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 01:20 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>People need to stop trying to use RW examples to justify their opinion of sales in a video game.You would need to add the caveat that Oil can be found by anyone that wants it but does not want to take the time to find it.</blockquote> So you are saying that I couldn't, with enough resources go out and get oil myself? My example is sound. If you want a gaming example, just replace "Oil Barrel" with Ebon Cluster.</blockquote>No you couldnt.Everyone would need to have the same ability, as they do now, in the game. That is not the case in RW examples and that is why they cannot be used.Every person has the same exact ability to go out and harvest that rare shiny in a game, not everyone has the same ability to find and drill for oil. </blockquote>Every person DOES have the ability to go out and prospect for oil. Heck, just get a shovel and dig in your backyard. Go ahead... dig long enough and lets see what happens. If you say: that wont work, you need enough time and resources in real life... well, you need enough time and resources in game as well. You can't just MAKE a level 1 and go to Lyceum and expect to farm mobs for loot. Same thing with life, you can't just be born, and automatically expect to find oil. It takes time and in some cases luck.

Dhurrty

06-20-2007, 01:28 PM

Kaishodan wrote: If anyone decided to put all of their "pick your Uber Rare" item on the broker for 1copper, I consider them a supplier. Me, a seller, buys said item, and in turn puts them on the broker for near the next lowest price listed. Plus, its near impossible to corner a rapidly supplied market in anything. If while shopping, I notice "UBER HELM of BADASSOSITY" for 30plat, by one seller, the next day its gone, a few days later a different seller is selling it for 5g, I see nothing wrong with taking that and selling it for 15p, since 30p was a standard set and was sold. Or when someone puts all of their steel clusters on the market for 10silver, and all the rest of them are listed at 80gold, I see no problem with buying them and listing them for 75 or 90gold. It happens in capitalism. Someone sells for low, someone buys it, someone sells it for higher. The same people that make the $10 Old Navy jeans are almost the same ppl that make the $200 Diesel ones. Just one person decided to raise the price more. The beautiful thing about capitalism is the market always corrects itself. When sellers post too high buyers stop buying. The more money in a buyers pocket, the more they tend to spend This is the practice that I am referring to in order to make money. At almost any given moment on the broker you can find an itme that is considered valuable for WAY less then what the others are listed for. Like you said, steel cluster for 10 silver pieces. When all of the rest are listed for over a plat, there is nothing wrong with buying them and listing them for a plat.It is the buyer that determins the market, like so many have stated. More money is in the world now with transmutting in place. Treasured items are worth more, especially at the lower levels. Does a level 12 toon need 70 plat? Not really at that particular moment in time. But to make that 70 plat, re-invest it continuosly into the market as well as keep grinding, hunting nameds, completeing quests, that 70 plat could easily turn into 200 plat by the time they hit level 70 where if you want to be decked out in all FABLED and MASTERED, 200 plat would not last long in getting that gear. Looking at my "Sales Log" on my toon, it shows I have sold over 700 plat. How much do I have now? About 25 plat because I wanted to be mastered every 10 levels or so. Now at level 60, I am trying to accumulate my plat back to become Mastered and decked out in gear.Is it greed to have to sell items to make money to buy items? Then I would suggest that anyone that sells from the broker would fall into the greedy category. Since there is a slight increase from what the vendor would pay. I don't think its greed at all. I would suggest its called survial or "getting by". And if my prices are too high, don't buy them, farm them yourself. Someone else will buy, or I am forced to have to drop my price. Just like every other toon vendor out there. Don't think the market evens itself out? When transmutting was first put into the game, "glimmering" items were listed at around 75 plat! Now its around 75 silver depending on your server I'm sure.For those high and mighty that feel they don't inflate their prices, ask yourself why you listed your itme for the price you listed it at? Because everyone else did? Because you felt that 5 gold or 5 plat was a reasonable price? Does that make it right? Maybe the 5 gold is too high of a price for someone. Maybe everyone else that listed it for 5 plat when you list it for 4 plat 95 gold is gouging, whats that make you? How do you come to your conclusions? Maybe when you do a PC in level chat, the people thatgive you your information either a.) want it for super cheap, or b.) have the same item they want to list but want to low ball you. What gives you the right to call someone greedy?Maybe we should just take all of the rares, and fabled, and wanted goods off of the broker and turn to the auction forums similar to Star Wars Galaxies? Then it would give you something else to complain about: "I can't believe you just paid x for y!", "OMG! Why would you even auction that off!". No matter what, someone will complain. It doesn't matter if you sell all of your t7 Fabled for 1 gold or 100 plat. Somoen will find falt. "OMG! Now anyone can be in Fabled gear without earning it!" "OMG, Now how is anyone going to be able to be in Fabled without having to raid at that price!"My suggestion for those starting, looking for money, needing money: Do what you want. Sometimes when you store those tin clusters on your broker and price them at 1 plat each, sometimes they sell. You are not considered greedy for trying to fund your toon. Kill Stealing makes you greedy. Node stealing makes you greedy. Paying the price someone lists and re-selling for a profit is not. You just helped someone make money. Pricing it at 5 plat and selling it for profit, just put 5 plat back into play into the economy.

DngrMou

06-20-2007, 01:37 PM

DngrMou

06-20-2007, 01:52 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>People need to stop trying to use RW examples to justify their opinion of sales in a video game.You would need to add the caveat that Oil can be found by anyone that wants it but does not want to take the time to find it.</blockquote> So you are saying that I couldn't, with enough resources go out and get oil myself? My example is sound. If you want a gaming example, just replace "Oil Barrel" with Ebon Cluster.</blockquote>Why? You, and anyone else is completely free to go out and get your own ebon clusters. There is no ebon cluster cartel out there that will try and stop you, or take your hard won clusters away.Your example is decidedly not sound, in that oil is expensive to get, and most of the worlds supply of oil is controlled by a few countries. Your example is pointless, and has no bearing on the game's economy.

Notso

06-20-2007, 01:58 PM

I can tell a lot of you never had an economics class, or never understood the concept when taking the class. Misconception – you cannot monopolize a renewable resource. Of course you can. Take wheat for example. If I buy up the wheat crop and defend my practice by saying “just go out and grow your own” what happens? People starve. Why? Because it takes time to grow wheat. Food monopolies were some of the earliest crimes against humanity and the main reason the government developed harsh rules about monopolies.` Misconception - Get a job and everything will be okay. Reality is not all jobs pay the same. A poor working person should not be denied health care because doctors only want to serve the rich. Now this may be overblown examples, but some of you are going over the deep end defending monopolistic practices. A new EQ2 player should not be denied crafting because someone wants to monopolize the market on roots and only sell to players twinking a new character. Last weekend I started crafting on a new character. For a few gold I bought 100 of each item I needed and started working through the teens. After using up my first 100 tuber strands I went back to the market to buy more. Unfortunately, someone bought up all the tuber strands and priced them at 50 silver each plus broker commission. Over 1000 of them. Sure, my character could go out and harvest, but we all know that you craft ABOVE your level. It does me no good to make spells 10 levels below. Sure, I could refuse to buy, but crafting is part of the game. I should not be denied by some greedy player trying to take advantage of the rich and established, or the newbie that buys plat off of ebay. When players monopolize the market they are taking away from the game I have paid to play.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 02:03 PM

Reguardless on how you sugar coated, you are still taking someone elses work, and selling it at a higher price. There is nothing else to my argument. Price gouging, while not illegal, is frowned upon. Uncontrolled price gouging makes it so that money looses it value, so even if you do get that "200 Plat", then at level 70 when someone puts a 70 fabled up for sale, it will not be for 10 plat.. it will be for 1000plat and more. That is the ultimate price servers pay for price gougers.

Karlen

06-20-2007, 02:05 PM

>>> Sure, my character could go out and harvest, but we all know that you craft ABOVE your level. It does me no good to make spells 10 levels below.<<< Translation: My level 5 character can't harvest ebon clusters so I have a right to be able to buy them from the broker at a price that I want to pay from the people who can harvest ebon clusters. The fact that there are areas in all tiers that a level 5 character could harvest is irrelevant because I don't want to harvest -- I want someone else to do that for me. We all know that people harvest out of the goodness of their heart and don't want to make any money on it -- that would be greedy.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 02:10 PM

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>>>> Sure, my character could go out and harvest, but we all know that you craft ABOVE your level. It does me no good to make spells 10 levels below.<<< Translation: My level 5 character can't harvest ebon clusters so I have a right to be able to buy them from the broker at a price that I want to pay from the people who can harvest ebon clusters. The fact that there are areas in all tiers that a level 5 character could harvest is irrelevant because I don't want to harvest -- I want someone else to do that for me. We all know that people harvest out of the goodness of their heart and don't want to make any money on it -- that would be greedy. </blockquote>Great. I expect those that go do the harvesting to place items for sale at what they are deemed worthy. That isn't the problem.. The problem is people that DO NOT do the harvesting that look at what other people sell and say: ooo, I can make a profit of his generosity (or stupidity, or in worst case scenario, just because).

Karlen

06-20-2007, 02:10 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reguardless on how you sugar coated, you are still taking someone elses work, and selling it at a higher price. There is nothing else to my argument. Price gouging, while not illegal, is frowned upon. Uncontrolled price gouging makes it so that money looses it value, so even if you do get that "200 Plat", then at level 70 when someone puts a 70 fabled up for sale, it will not be for 10 plat.. it will be for 1000plat and more. That is the ultimate price servers pay for price gougers.</blockquote> If someone takes an item that normally sells for 10 plat and resells it for 1000 plat, then either people will buy it for 1000 plat (which make me wonder why it was selling for 10 plat) or people won't buy it for 1000 plat and the reseller will have to drop the price to what people will pay. EDIT: the original seller got what he was asking for his item and has no reason to complain.

Karlen

06-20-2007, 02:13 PM

>>>Great. I expect those that go do the harvesting to place items for sale at what they are deemed worthy. That isn't the problem.. The problem is people that DO NOT do the harvesting that look at what other people sell and say: ooo, I can make a profit of his generosity (or stupidity, or in worst case scenario, just because).<<< A positive feature of resellers is that those who do the harvesting get money for their work more quickly if resellers quickly buy up their product. EDIT: which might make them go out and harvest again sooner than they might otherwise.

Kaishod

06-20-2007, 02:18 PM

<cite>Notso wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell a lot of you never had an economics class, or never understood the concept when taking the class. Misconception – you cannot monopolize a renewable resource. Of course you can. Take wheat for example. If I buy up the wheat crop and defend my practice by saying “just go out and grow your own” what happens? People starve. Why? Because it takes time to grow wheat. Food monopolies were some of the earliest crimes against humanity and the main reason the government developed harsh rules about monopolies.` Misconception - Get a job and everything will be okay. Reality is not all jobs pay the same. A poor working person should not be denied health care because doctors only want to serve the rich. Now this may be overblown examples, but some of you are going over the deep end defending monopolistic practices. A new EQ2 player should not be denied crafting because someone wants to monopolize the market on roots and only sell to players twinking a new character. Last weekend I started crafting on a new character. For a few gold I bought 100 of each item I needed and started working through the teens. After using up my first 100 tuber strands I went back to the market to buy more. Unfortunately, someone bought up all the tuber strands and priced them at 50 silver each plus broker commission. Over 1000 of them. Sure, my character could go out and harvest, but we all know that you craft ABOVE your level. It does me no good to make spells 10 levels below. Sure, I could refuse to buy, but crafting is part of the game. I should not be denied by some greedy player trying to take advantage of the rich and established, or the newbie that buys plat off of ebay. When players monopolize the market they are taking away from the game I have paid to play. </blockquote>wow... isn't that going off the deep end? no one is going to "starve" in this game. It does not cost you anything but time to harvest, where as in the real world, you would have to buy land, buy seed, and wait to grow.... yes, I know you said overblown examples.As far as RW politics and healthcare. That is a very socialistic approach, which you are trying to say we should follow in the virtual world? I pay enough taxes, more then alot of people make a year, and I'm also in the tax braket that pays more then 80% of over all taxes to the US.... to support those on welfare, and health care for those not willing to get up off of their rears and work for what they want. I'm not some silver spoon baby... I earned my money myself. Just like here in the game, since ppl want to bring in Real World scenarios. If you want something, you have tyo work for it, whether it means crafting yourself, harversting yourself, or farming yourself (the nameds... or the BROKER!) Give me a break. You think everything shold be given to you? If this is how you feel about a game, I can't imagine how well you truely know economics in r/l.... unless you're one of those that teach/preach, not do.You spent your time informing yourself about how to craft, where to craft, what to craft, right? You even informed yourself about what you needed to craft. You obviously didn't inform yourself about how much it would cost you to get into said business. Or you would have bought 1000 tubers instead of 100. With your implenting oif RW, that would suggest anyone that knows how to run a business should automatically have a business... BS! With your idea of fair, then why not everyone that wants it easy have just as much as those that go out and work for it? You obviously see your time more valuable as a crafter then the person that either a.) harvested all of those tubers, or b.) bought and resold all of those tubers. And NO, you do not have to craft ABOVE your combat lvl. There is not one craft that you can keep yourself self-sufficient. So though the idea is to craft items for yourself, is a choice... not a rule. Crafting is "A" part of the game... just as is Harvesting, Fighting, Questing, and "SELLING/BUYING"

Notso

06-20-2007, 02:18 PM

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>Translation: My level 5 character can't harvest ebon clusters so I have a right to be able to buy them from the broker at a price that I want to pay from the people who can harvest ebon clusters. The fact that there are areas in all tiers that a level 5 character could harvest is irrelevant because I don't want to harvest -- I want someone else to do that for me. We all know that people harvest out of the goodness of their heart and don't want to make any money on it -- that would be greedy. </blockquote> Translation: I have a right to get rich by doing nothing but letting my broker bot buy up items while I am afk watching reruns of Star Trek. Complain all you want but if you are not rich enough to pay my price then I don't care. The market is the only game I care about and I plan to win.

Oponn

06-20-2007, 02:20 PM

My market strategy is to turn my items over ASAP. Which means I lowball everyone. I make sure I always have the lowest price on broker unless it is an expensive item or spell. I check my items a few times a day and make sure each item is the lowest on there.The people going off about Immoral market behaviors are truly idiots... Might as well chastise the wind for blowing...

KBern

06-20-2007, 02:41 PM

<cite>Notso wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell a lot of you never had an economics class, or never understood the concept when taking the class. Misconception – you cannot monopolize a renewable resource. Of course you can. Take wheat for example. If I buy up the wheat crop and defend my practice by saying “just go out and grow your own” what happens? People starve. Why? Because it takes time to grow wheat. Food monopolies were some of the earliest crimes against humanity and the main reason the government developed harsh rules about monopolies.` Misconception - Get a job and everything will be okay. Reality is not all jobs pay the same. A poor working person should not be denied health care because doctors only want to serve the rich. Now this may be overblown examples, but some of you are going over the deep end defending monopolistic practices. A new EQ2 player should not be denied crafting because someone wants to monopolize the market on roots and only sell to players twinking a new character. Last weekend I started crafting on a new character. For a few gold I bought 100 of each item I needed and started working through the teens. After using up my first 100 tuber strands I went back to the market to buy more. Unfortunately, someone bought up all the tuber strands and priced them at 50 silver each plus broker commission. Over 1000 of them. Sure, my character could go out and harvest, but we all know that you craft ABOVE your level. It does me no good to make spells 10 levels below. Sure, I could refuse to buy, but crafting is part of the game. I should not be denied by some greedy player trying to take advantage of the rich and established, or the newbie that buys plat off of ebay. When players monopolize the market they are taking away from the game I have paid to play. </blockquote>Mr. Economics, you are missing the point of both your class and the conversation.Items in game are not a "renewable resource". They are an instantly acquired endless supply resource. No one is starving in game. No one has to work any harder than the next person to acquire the results of a shiny. You simply click and it is yours. Use cracked bones for an example. They sell for crazy amounts. However anyone, who has played the game to lvl 10-20 (2-4 days time of casual playing) can find these with the same chances as anyone else out there. They do not run out, they are instantly spawned, and of an endless supply. Some basic economic rules may apply to the game, but to continue to use RW examples for pixels that have an endless supply, and anyone can go out and get it a tad unrealistic.Anything in the RW has a limited supply, whether it be air, water, sand, gold, or wheat. There is no limited supply of anything in EQ2 except for mythical one per server drops which cannot be sold anyway.

Karlen

06-20-2007, 02:47 PM

>>>Translation: I have a right to get rich by doing nothing but letting my broker bot buy up items while I am afk watching reruns of Star Trek. Complain all you want but if you are not rich enough to pay my price then I don't care. The market is the only game I care about and I plan to win.<<<I am opposed to the use of bots for any reason. If you are at your computer buying things up to resell, that is part of the game -- the "economy" part. You are part of maintaining a stable economy. If you are pricing things too high, you won't sell them and will eventually drop the price to what people will pay (the "fair price" ). Other people coming on the market will price near you and receive fair value for their work, or price much below and get quick return for their work. Yes, resellers can have a short-term inflation effect on the market. But if it is an unreasonable increase, they will either go out of business or eventually (no longer than a day or two) reduce prices back to the "normal" price. If you feel that you can't wait until tomorrow to buy your items, that's up to you, but you will have to pay the price for buying them today, <div align="right"> </div>

Freliant

06-20-2007, 03:17 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Notso wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell a lot of you never had an economics class, or never understood the concept when taking the class. Misconception – you cannot monopolize a renewable resource. Of course you can. Take wheat for example. If I buy up the wheat crop and defend my practice by saying “just go out and grow your own” what happens? People starve. Why? Because it takes time to grow wheat. Food monopolies were some of the earliest crimes against humanity and the main reason the government developed harsh rules about monopolies.` Misconception - Get a job and everything will be okay. Reality is not all jobs pay the same. A poor working person should not be denied health care because doctors only want to serve the rich. Now this may be overblown examples, but some of you are going over the deep end defending monopolistic practices. A new EQ2 player should not be denied crafting because someone wants to monopolize the market on roots and only sell to players twinking a new character. Last weekend I started crafting on a new character. For a few gold I bought 100 of each item I needed and started working through the teens. After using up my first 100 tuber strands I went back to the market to buy more. Unfortunately, someone bought up all the tuber strands and priced them at 50 silver each plus broker commission. Over 1000 of them. Sure, my character could go out and harvest, but we all know that you craft ABOVE your level. It does me no good to make spells 10 levels below. Sure, I could refuse to buy, but crafting is part of the game. I should not be denied by some greedy player trying to take advantage of the rich and established, or the newbie that buys plat off of ebay. When players monopolize the market they are taking away from the game I have paid to play. </blockquote>Mr. Economics, you are missing the point of both your class and the conversation.Items in game are not a "renewable resource". They are an instantly acquired endless supply resource. No one is starving in game. No one has to work any harder than the next person to acquire the results of a shiny. You simply click and it is yours. Use cracked bones for an example. They sell for crazy amounts. However anyone, who has played the game to lvl 10-20 (2-4 days time of casual playing) can find these with the same chances as anyone else out there. They do not run out, they are instantly spawned, and of an endless supply. Some basic economic rules may apply to the game, but to continue to use RW examples for pixels that have an endless supply, and anyone can go out and get it a tad unrealistic.Anything in the RW has a limited supply, whether it be air, water, sand, gold, or wheat. There is no limited supply of anything in EQ2 except for mythical one per server drops which cannot be sold anyway. </blockquote>OK, no RW examples, then, lets use another game: FFXI, or WoW... its essentially the same hell hole economy.Items, in general, are in abundant supply in both games... however, there are items that do not enter the world, except for once a week (like the fabled in our games) because of a lockout, a spawn timer, or some other artificial Dev Condition. Those items CAN be gathered by anyone, and in fact many people do stand in one camp spot for days for a chance to get them, however, they are sold at millions of coins... much much more than a regular player starting the game can ever even dream of getting.. and on top of this, the items are newb level items. In FFXI items like Lizzy Boots were only for the rich, that bought gil from illegal means, for example.What happened to those economies because no one bothered to break up the monopolies? It went down the drain. Whenever you want to buy anything in that game now, you have to have an unreal supply of money which no one aside from those that control the monopoly can afford.If monopolistic behaviors are not curved, then the next thing you will be complaining about is: ""the devs never did anything to fix the economy when the situations were happening... they should ban all the people that control the monopolies"" and so on...

Ithilmar

06-20-2007, 05:28 PM

<blockquote>OK, no RW examples, then, lets use another game: FFXI, or WoW... its essentially the same hell hole economy. Items, in general, are in abundant supply in both games... however, there are items that do not enter the world, except for once a week (like the fabled in our games) because of a lockout, a spawn timer, or some other artificial Dev Condition. Those items CAN be gathered by anyone, and in fact many people do stand in one camp spot for days for a chance to get them, however, they are sold at millions of coins... much much more than a regular player starting the game can ever even dream of getting.. and on top of this, the items are newb level items. In FFXI items like Lizzy Boots were only for the rich, that bought gil from illegal means, for example. What happened to those economies because no one bothered to break up the monopolies? It went down the drain. Whenever you want to buy anything in that game now, you have to have an unreal supply of money which no one aside from those that control the monopoly can afford. If monopolistic behaviors are not curved, then the next thing you will be complaining about is: ""the devs never did anything to fix the economy when the situations were happening... they should ban all the people that control the monopolies"" and so on... </blockquote> Except for the fact that msot of the big name items, such as leading boots, archers rings, ect in FFXI has been turned into items that are rare/ex, with the only other way to access the sell-able ones are to go through the BCNMs. BCNMs, while accessible to all, are hardly doable by all. The mobs to camp do no good to constantly camp anymore since you can only ever have 1 of the item on your and you can't sell them. thus making it easier for the level correct people to have said items. Also if you ask most players of FFXI, most will tell you Leaping boots and the Paecock charm is a luxury and far from needed at all. Those aren't like sniper rings, lifebelts, ect, and even those relatively cheap items can be disregarded with various other equipment and food. So here you are wrong in that the devs did do something, and they did that something around 1.5 years ago give or take a couple months.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 06:24 PM

<cite>Ithilmar wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>OK, no RW examples, then, lets use another game: FFXI, or WoW... its essentially the same hell hole economy. Items, in general, are in abundant supply in both games... however, there are items that do not enter the world, except for once a week (like the fabled in our games) because of a lockout, a spawn timer, or some other artificial Dev Condition. Those items CAN be gathered by anyone, and in fact many people do stand in one camp spot for days for a chance to get them, however, they are sold at millions of coins... much much more than a regular player starting the game can ever even dream of getting.. and on top of this, the items are newb level items. In FFXI items like Lizzy Boots were only for the rich, that bought gil from illegal means, for example. What happened to those economies because no one bothered to break up the monopolies? It went down the drain. Whenever you want to buy anything in that game now, you have to have an unreal supply of money which no one aside from those that control the monopoly can afford. If monopolistic behaviors are not curved, then the next thing you will be complaining about is: ""the devs never did anything to fix the economy when the situations were happening... they should ban all the people that control the monopolies"" and so on... </blockquote> Except for the fact that msot of the big name items, such as leading boots, archers rings, ect in FFXI has been turned into items that are rare/ex, with the only other way to access the sell-able ones are to go through the BCNMs. BCNMs, while accessible to all, are hardly doable by all. The mobs to camp do no good to constantly camp anymore since you can only ever have 1 of the item on your and you can't sell them. thus making it easier for the level correct people to have said items. Also if you ask most players of FFXI, most will tell you Leaping boots and the Paecock charm is a luxury and far from needed at all. Those aren't like sniper rings, lifebelts, ect, and even those relatively cheap items can be disregarded with various other equipment and food. So here you are wrong in that the devs did do something, and they did that something around 1.5 years ago give or take a couple months.</blockquote>Heh, so you notice that it took DEVELOPER intervention and restructuring of the game in order to attempt to fix the broken economy. Those items would have NOT been luxury items had no one tried to overprice them. Once you are done with the item, you can just resell it because in that game, things didn't get automatically bound to you. Yes, I know the mechanics got changed on it, but it was too late. Heck you can even ask any long term players. The devs had to DIRECTLY interfere in the economy by putting up many items for sale at a much lower rate than what they were normally going for.Do you want a similar situation to happen in EQ2? Thousands of bans later and millions of possible dollars lost, FFXI learned its lesson, but it was far too late. Moral: Monopolies and price gouging is very bad.

Klanch

06-20-2007, 07:39 PM

Oponn@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>...are truly idiots... </blockquote> Four pages before the name calling starts. Not bad for a thread like this.

Lortet

06-20-2007, 09:03 PM

Most of the negatives in this thread seem to be totally ignoring a VERY important fact.This system has buying - which a lot seem to be screaming about as they feel they are being gouged.and selling - on the same market - I have already posted how on todays market getting only three - five adepts dropped - even lvl 1 -20 ones can return you enough gold to buy a master spell, or a rare (if you can't go out and harvest it yourself), or even some mastercrafted armour. How long does it take to get 5 - 10 such drops? - 20 minutes if you set your mind to it. Spend 30 minutes harvesting some leaded loam and make gold - whatever - you can! There are more money making opportunities now than ever before - I was worried about transmuting destroying the market - it has actually strengthened it. Yes this has been inflationary - but only to a fraction of the increase of lower tier materials, now allowing characters to get off to a firm financial footing. Only however, if those characters sell for similar amounts to the other items on the broker. Undercut dramatically, your stuff will sell quickly but you then can't afford to buy what you want - big news - that is not the fault of the other players!Complaining about players using the broker buying and selling for profit makes no more sense than complaining about crafters overcharging for their wares. If you don't like those charges, you are wlecome to get your own by adventuring/harvesting/crafting/playing the market yourself. Each method is part of the game mechanic.Finally - anyone considered roleplay? Maybe someone is RP'ing the evil scrooge!

Klanch

06-20-2007, 09:43 PM

No need for either side to get bent out of shape over this. Yes, the practice would be very bad for newbies. No, there are not any newbies buying the game to worry about.

Ssyzr

06-20-2007, 10:13 PM

<cite>Notso wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell a lot of you never had an economics class, or never understood the concept when taking the class. Misconception – you cannot monopolize a renewable resource. Of course you can. Take wheat for example. If I buy up the wheat crop and defend my practice by saying “just go out and grow your own” what happens? People starve. Why? Because it takes time to grow wheat. Food monopolies were some of the earliest crimes against humanity and the main reason the government developed harsh rules about monopolies.` Misconception - Get a job and everything will be okay. Reality is not all jobs pay the same. A poor working person should not be denied health care because doctors only want to serve the rich. Now this may be overblown examples, but some of you are going over the deep end defending monopolistic practices. A new EQ2 player should not be denied crafting because someone wants to monopolize the market on roots and only sell to players twinking a new character. Last weekend I started crafting on a new character. For a few gold I bought 100 of each item I needed and started working through the teens. After using up my first 100 tuber strands I went back to the market to buy more. Unfortunately, someone bought up all the tuber strands and priced them at 50 silver each plus broker commission. Over 1000 of them. Sure, my character could go out and harvest, but we all know that you craft ABOVE your level. It does me no good to make spells 10 levels below. Sure, I could refuse to buy, but crafting is part of the game. I should not be denied by some greedy player trying to take advantage of the rich and established, or the newbie that buys plat off of ebay. When players monopolize the market they are taking away from the game I have paid to play. </blockquote> I find it interesting that you have taken an economics class but you still do not understand the difference between real world examples and a game. Take wheat for example! Its bought up by income oriented factories that produce bread, its then bought up by income oriented stores and sold to the needy for a huge markup. Your example puts me on firmer ground to continue to resell items much as it is done in the real world. The best part about my actions is that no matter what I price my items at - nobody will ever starve. What you and others have failed to note is the consequences in game of people undercutting the market values. Should everyone be denied the ability to make an income simply because a few short sighted greedy people insist on selling items so far below the established price that its no longer worth the time investment to go farm these items? Why would anyone in their right mind farm adepts/treasured and then sell pages and pages of them for 2 silver/10silver etc when its obvious that the market is much higher! Granted that one transmuter that finds them can now fill his inventory and walk away laughing. "I should not be denied by some greedy player..." Wow. You mean that the money you have paid is somehow better than the money others have paid for this game? Are you saying you should not be denied your greed regardless of the consequences of others. You want people to stop reselling because you are upset that crafting suppies exceed your income for a tradeskill alt! Had you farmed the items with your main this would not be a problem, but your concern about others greed is matched by your own. My tradeskill ats do not suffer from the same issues you bring up - I keep them well stocked up. ***You still have not established how someone can create a monopoly in EQ2. The grain example does not work. Players can put new "grain" on the market day or night, regardless of season or weather, with no trade restrictions, union dues, income tax or paperwork. They don't even have to have an infrastructure - soil, equipment, and experience is not required. A simple click and the monopoly is over.

Freliant

06-20-2007, 11:39 PM

Guess I love the torture... don't know why I am posting anymore... I have posted more on this subject that the years I have spent reading around these forums for information and updates... but here goes one last(?) time...First: regardless of how you phrase it or candy coat it, price gougers are buying other people's work, and giving themselves the profit when they resell the exact same item. They didn't craft anything with it, they didn't suddenly make the adept 1's turn into adept 3, or make the shiny suddenly get a damage proc, or the master become more powerfull, or the fabled gain more stats. They simply bought the item, and placed it at a higher price for the sole and selfish purpose of gaining money.Second: undercutting is not the same as price gouging and the effects on the economy are completely different. Price gouging artificially increased the prices of items on the servers. All other items that are then made from those artificially inflated prices become much higher priced. Hence level 60+ masters used to be sold for 1 plat prior to EoF transmuttables, however, people bought out the entire master 1 market under 2 plat and made a big profit on the initial adornments. Adornments now are not that needed, but the prices on masters T7 are still at 2+ plat and people keep insta buying any that drop below that threshold. Adornments now made from those ingredients are impossible to price approprietely because now the fuel to make em is too expensive. Undercutting makes the opposite happen. People place items at lower prices than those already in the market, but still at a slight profit to themselves, and other people pick that up and are now able to make cheaper items and the cost cutting goes all the way down to the end user while everyone along the line makes a profit. Price gouging = big profits to the ones doing the gouging, and big losses the the rest of the members of the chain.If you don't want to realise that, then sorry, but I don't even want to waste my typing on explaining it any further.

Ssyzr

06-21-2007, 12:15 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guess I love the torture... don't know why I am posting anymore... I have posted more on this subject that the years I have spent reading around these forums for information and updates... but here goes one last(?) time...First: regardless of how you phrase it or candy coat it, price gougers are buying other people's work, and giving themselves the profit when they resell the exact same item. They didn't craft anything with it, they didn't suddenly make the adept 1's turn into adept 3, or make the shiny suddenly get a damage proc, or the master become more powerfull, or the fabled gain more stats. They simply bought the item, and placed it at a higher price for the sole and selfish purpose of gaining money.Second: undercutting is not the same as price gouging and the effects on the economy are completely different. Price gouging artificially increased the prices of items on the servers. All other items that are then made from those artificially inflated prices become much higher priced. Hence level 60+ masters used to be sold for 1 plat prior to EoF transmuttables, however, people bought out the entire master 1 market under 2 plat and made a big profit on the initial adornments. Adornments now are not that needed, but the prices on masters T7 are still at 2+ plat and people keep insta buying any that drop below that threshold. Adornments now made from those ingredients are impossible to price approprietely because now the fuel to make em is too expensive. Undercutting makes the opposite happen. People place items at lower prices than those already in the market, but still at a slight profit to themselves, and other people pick that up and are now able to make cheaper items and the cost cutting goes all the way down to the end user while everyone along the line makes a profit. Price gouging = big profits to the ones doing the gouging, and big losses the the rest of the members of the chain.If you don't want to realise that, then sorry, but I don't even want to waste my typing on explaining it any further. </blockquote> The point of debate is not to torture. There are two sides of any story and it can be fun to discuss the issues and flesh out the thought process of both sides! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> "price gougers are buying other people's work, and giving themselves the profit [...] for the sole and selfish purpose of gaining money." True, I don't think this issue is in contention. "undercutting is not the same as price gouging and the effects on the economy are completely different" True, repeat undercutting can destroy a market to the point it is not worth the time and effort to supply goods to people who may need them. "Hence level 60+ masters used to be sold for one plat [...] people bought out the entire master 1 market for under two plat" I took a look at the 60+ masters on my server and I see that you are correct. So, I ask, what is stopping you from listing your 60+ masters for 1p80g and making a tidy profit off the resellers? Why in the world would you list a 2pp item for half the price and not expect someone to buy it out and make 1pp for no effort? Had you listed the master for 1p80g resellers would likely hesitate to buy it, thereby you have started to slowly lower the market to what you consider acceptable levels. If not ... well you did make 80 gold above what you used to sell the same item previously. "Price gouging = big profits to the ones doing the gouging, and big losses to the rest of the members of the chain." At what point did the seller not recieve the price listed for the item that was sold to a reseller? How did the reseller manage to scam the person he bought the item from? I am not aware of any method, legal or otherwise, that can lower the price of an item before the reseller makes his purchace. If the market is higher than it was previously - stop listing your items for the prices of the old market. Its simple - when the price goes up, market your items accordingly. Selling your items for dirt cheap will not lower the market, it simply puts money in the pockets of resellers. If you think a market is too high - price your items in such a way that the risk is too high for a reseller to justify the purchace. Personally I thought 60+ masters would cost more. My 40 masters are similar in price and until you directed me to the higher level search I had no idea that 60+ people could buy masters so cheap. Regardless of what you *think* masters should cost at various levels - the people who buy the masters are obviously willing to pay more for them than you are. The resellers know this and are capitalizing on your cheap goods. *edit* - spelling

Karlen

06-21-2007, 10:39 AM

>>>First: regardless of how you phrase it or candy coat it, price gougers are buying other people's work, and giving themselves the profit when they resell the exact same item. They didn't craft anything with it, they didn't suddenly make the adept 1's turn into adept 3, or make the shiny suddenly get a damage proc, or the master become more powerfull, or the fabled gain more stats. They simply bought the item, and placed it at a higher price for the sole and selfish purpose of gaining money.<<< Correct. By risking their money to invest in purchases off the broker, they may make money (or lose it if noone is willing to pay their higher prices). Playing the market is part of the game. >>>Second: undercutting is not the same as price gouging and the effects on the economy are completely different. Price gouging artificially increased the prices of items on the servers. All other items that are then made from those artificially inflated prices become much higher priced. Hence level 60+ masters used to be sold for 1 plat prior to EoF transmuttables, however, people bought out the entire master 1 market under 2 plat and made a big profit on the initial adornments. Adornments now are not that needed, but the prices on masters T7 are still at 2+ plat and people keep insta buying any that drop below that threshold. Adornments now made from those ingredients are impossible to price approprietely because now the fuel to make em is too expensive. Undercutting makes the opposite happen. People place items at lower prices than those already in the market, but still at a slight profit to themselves, and other people pick that up and are now able to make cheaper items and the cost cutting goes all the way down to the end user while everyone along the line makes a profit. Price gouging = big profits to the ones doing the gouging, and big losses the the rest of the members of the chain.<<< What you call "price gouging", I call "noticing that masters are selling for cheaper than people can make adept IIIs for". If 60+ masters are selling for a plat, what does that do to the Adept III market? I'm not sure what adept III rares are selling for, but if they are like other T7 rares, you won't be making a lot of money selling T7 Adept IIIs if people can buy T7 masters for 1 plat.