All Encompassing Brawler Changes! (Previously only AA Changes)

[mr23sgte]

<p>I didn't want the biggest Brawler thread to get lost.  We need help!!! More DPS OR Utility and Better uncontested avoid! </p><p>1>Changing Tsunami to last longer when most mobs use "SPECIALS" that blow through Tsunami in the 1st place isnt helping Monks. </p><p>2>Making Outward Calm (a level 52 spell) last longer isnt going to help me tank better. </p><p>3> My Stun stance that I cant use b/c I generate only use 1 single taunt isnt going to help me much on group encounters ...........ect ect </p><p> Brawlers please keep this thread going - with all the constructive ideas.............I think I might be one of the few  last Raiding monks on my server, but I fear it won't be long since my Coercer is already level 50 and hope to have 70 by ROK. </p><p>SOS - Help !!!!!!!!!</p>

[Timaarit]

Well, for tanking, the stun from the bigger temporary mitigation buff needs to go and be replaced by stilfe+root or daze+root. And the root from the other one just simply needs to go, it has no place in there since for example warriors have group wide temporary mitigation buff that has no penalties. Then the hate procs needs to be encounter wide. Also deflection as it is needs to be made fully uncontested. The first ones would be upgrades while the last would be a fix due since DoF.

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Actually neither of them need penalties, if Root is necessary then make it one that prevents those Nasty NASTY Knockbacks.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">What would be better would be to consolidate our Mit buffs and upp the mit or avoidance.</span></p>

[IronHydra]

Yah... honestly who does use the stun skill it brings more damage to you and your group then it benifits...  I would much rather see something that helps the group, not sure exactly what but come on thats what the Dev's get paid for to think of some skills that will help.  Not ones that no one will ever use.

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00"><b>I would also like to see more utility for Devastation Fist,</b> I don't want to One-Shot Naggy or anything <i>(it would be cool though lol)</i> but maybe 75% damage to Heroics and maybe 10-20% or a solid number on Epics.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Oh and bump with content!</span></p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">The other thread is getting Number-Crunchy, I'm bad at number-crunchy so I'm going to list some ideas and let people debate them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Strength line should be modified to work armed or unarmed, Brawlers and Monks in paricular are drwonding in Haste we need DPS. In my opinion there does not need to be an allowance made for unarmed, for those who Roleplay fistwraps <b>are</b> unarmed, just with stats.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Our situation Mitigation Buffs need to be consolidated the Stun effect ditched entirely.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Our stances could use some looking into as well, not being able to take damage in offensive hurts us badly (spike damage) , because we need to be in that stance to generate aggro. our defensice stance gives us a pitiance of uncontested but makes it tougher to keep aggro.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Taunts we need an out-of-encounter-taunt, it is tough to grab adds without it when they mob is attacking someone else, by the time you cycle through to the new mobs you have lost someone squishier then you. Also a buff that makes it so the more they miss you the more aggro you generate would be more in-line with the brawler vision.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Uncontested avoidance should be looked at, Monks are sitting at the bottom of the fighter rung on avoidance, It just does <b>not</b> make any sense what-so-ever.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Raid Utility, I believe the Hate venting from other classes is a step in the right direction, although at the moment it we do not draw enough hopefull this can be solved with either future updates or a second and third monk added to the raid. </span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">bump</span></p>

[malykii]

<p>10-20% dmg of devestation fist on epics mobs? That is way to much.  That would hit harder than assassin decapitate.  Maybe 2% on epic mobs if that.  On a named epic mob 20% of their hp would be like 400,000 hp on some if not more.  </p><p>On mitigation you have no idea what you are talking about pagan.  60% mitigation means very simply one thing.  you are absorbing 60% of the total hit of a mob of EQUAL lvl.  So if a mob hits you for 10k you are mitigating 6000dmg and you only take 4k dmg.  5% more mitigation doesnt warrent a 25% difference in any reality.  </p><p> All tanks take negatives on their stances are stances are in-line with everyone elses. With a dirge templar or warden in group this isnt a problem because they all have crush slash piercing skill buffs.  Pal/Sk do not get out of encounter hate buffs.  Pal amends only works as such if the person that has it is doing ae dmg like a warlock.  Furthermore, when you guys actually get us a reactive hate buff you might have a clue how little it actualy does for group agro.  I used to play a raid guardian and it makes very little difference.  Biggest difference is a hate transfer and coercer in group.  </p><p>Tsunami really does work.  You guys blow everything out of proportion.  For the very few mobs that have 1 ability that hits through it at 60% mit on my monk it really doesnt hurt much when 100% of their normal attacks are avoided.  </p><p>I was reviewing mit avoidance of my guardian monk and my friends shadowknight all t7 fabled and adorned.  My guardian is highest at 68% avoidance 62% mitigation, then my monk at 59.7% mitigation 75% avoidance, and then shadowknight was with 62% mitigation 63% avoidance.  According to act on the  Gnorbal encounter in lyceum my monk took 2% less dmg over 2 min of fighting than the shadowknight. </p><p>The new monk evade changes are the [Removed for Content] talk about the ultimate addition to your dps group now that agro transfers are catching the nerf.  Someone that does decent dps but can lower the entire groups hate to the encounter.</p>

[kopingOwen]

just read thru all 34 pages.... took several hours mind you lol i duo/solo with my monk and raid/group with my assassin to be honest i enjoy playing my monk more then my assassin but i want to raid aswell and thus having a hard time with my monk. i agree fully with that brawlers need fixing <b>+more uncontested avoid to have atleast a <u>chance</u> in raid tanking</b> of the examples to changes ive read making deflection uncontested makes most sence to me since hell its our shield lol my eof tree suggestions to changes up the % on our threat transfer/siphon bonus to our friendly avoidance buff.. change the EoF tree were we get the dethreat abilites into gain threat abilites [Removed for Content] why dose a fighter class that is supposed to tank need some freaking ability to decrease incoming threat to them?! like we dont have a hard time keeping aggro as it is this is total and utterly bs imho and dont come here telling me its becouse we pull aggro otherwise since ive seen other fighter classes pull out more dps then us with 0 dethreat abilites and still not pull aggro... <b>+put the brawlers on top regarding dps amongs <u>fighters </u></b> changes to AAs seems to be the "easy" way to handle this i guess suggestions i agree with and this is verry good and whould have suggested if not someone have already beaten me to it. str line: change chi to a 5 min timer and make it so we can use weapons tho with reduces bonuses compared to unarmed wis line: change our aoe proc so it is based on weapon damage instead of a set damage value int line: change eagle shriek so it starts at 50% instead of 30% thats for starters.. its late and im tierd will think of this and maby post another reply tomorrow

[Zabjade]

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>10-20% dmg of devestation fist on epics mobs? That is way to much.  That would hit harder than assassin decapitate.  Maybe 2% on epic mobs if that.  On a named epic mob 20% of their hp would be like 400,000 hp on some if not more.  </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><b>I did add "or a solid number"</b>  2% might be way low for an attack that is supposed to warp reality</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">[snip]</span></p></blockquote>

[PaganSaint]

Sins@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>On mitigation you have no idea what you are talking about pagan.  60% mitigation means very simply one thing.  you are absorbing 60% of the total hit of a mob of EQUAL lvl.  So if a mob hits you for 10k you are mitigating 6000dmg and you only take 4k dmg.  5% more mitigation doesnt warrent a 25% difference in any reality.  </p></blockquote><p>Take your example here.</p><p>60% mitigation. 6000 damage absorbed. 4000 damage gets through. 65% mitigation. 6500 damage absorbed. 3500 damage gets through.</p><p>500 damage difference. 500 of 4000 is 12.5%. 65% mitigation is taking 12.5% less damage than 60% mitigation.</p><p>Now lets make it really obvious.</p><p>75% mitigation. 7500 damage absorbed. 2500 damage gets through. 80% mitigation. 2000 damage gets through.</p><p>500 damage difference again right? 500 of 2500 is 20%. 80% mitigation is taking 20% less damage than 75% mitigation.</p><p>Need I go further? Or will you take the hint? </p><p>And yes I am well aware of the fact that that was the an analysis done for plate tanks. The same principles hold true for all classes though. To increase your survivability you can do three things, increase hitpoints, increase avoidance, and increase mitigation. The largest contributing factor will always be hitpoints, and then you come into where people argue. Uncontested plus the small actual avoidance boost from contested avoidances against 74/75 epics versus mitigation.</p><p>Real uncontested avoidance, right at the 35% at the highest possible quality gear/skill mark would be perfect for brawlers.</p><p>If mitigation worked properly.</p><p>As it is currently working, I would say an easily achievable 22% with a maximum of 28% uncontested avoidance would solve all of the [Removed for Content] poor survivability problems brawlers have against harder epics.</p><p>Getting hit much less, but much harder.</p>

[Dorieon]

<p>I would love to see an update that allowed devastation fist to effect epics, however I agree with Sins that 10-20% is much too high. I think that the best way that the devs could do it (and I think this has been posted somewhere before) is to have it hit for between 5-10% but <b>ONLY</b> when the mob is at 10% or lower health. If you had a named epic with say 4,000,000 HP 10% of that would be 400,000 and 5-10% of that would vary between 20-40,000 damage. Even this may be a bit overpowered and I would be happy to hit for a constant 5% when the mob was at 10% or lower. </p><p> For heroics, 75% is way too high. I'm not the best solo'er out there but even mobs that give me trouble I can get to half or less on HP. I would go with somewhere around 10-15% of the mob's total HPs. </p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Percentages is a bad idea. It can really get out of hand, and have a large variance due to the mob. Instead, Devastation Fist would work better to add additional clauses for Arrow Ups and Epics with flat damage numbers, to keep it in check. We aren't Assassins. It's not on a 1 hour timer or anything. It should be a significant damage boost, but nothing outright insane. We aren't going to get Decapitate or something here.... Nah, some specific damage number that scales with level (since we have no upgrades) or fixed damage, and when they bring out the lvl 53 version it ends up being higher, etc.

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Well now at least we have a debate on the topic, I prefer flat numbers as well, but had no idea about what would be a decent amount vs Heroic and vs Epic. That's why I had percentages.</span></p>

[miliskel]

i think 1 % on epics would be fair if lower than 10% health 10% on heroics if lower than 50% health arrow up solo's 50% health at any time and arrow down / normal ur whole health or the ordinary amount of damage on epic if under 10 % if under 50% heroics if under 50% arrow up solos at full health insta ill like it is

[mr23sgte]

yeah Dev fist ideas are great -- would love to see a change to make it like Verdict that Inquis gets ........ we would be more wanted on raids with an ability like that!

[Junaru]

The problem with a flat number is it doesn't scale with levels. Rather then a percent they should do a base-math off your level. This would give it scaling ability but not be a flat percent which may or may not be too high for a mob. (level * multiplier) * solo/heroic/epic = damage

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with a flat number is it doesn't scale with levels. Rather then a percent they should do a base-math off your level. This would give it scaling ability but not be a flat percent which may or may not be too high for a mob. (level * multiplier) * solo/heroic/epic = damage </blockquote>That is the best idea I've heard concerning making the ability actually usefull. Maybe also make that damage after the calculation affected by bolt of energy/synergism/etc?

[Zabjade]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with a flat number is it doesn't scale with levels. Rather then a percent they should do a base-math off your level. This would give it scaling ability but not be a flat percent which may or may not be too high for a mob. (level * multiplier) * solo/heroic/epic = damage </blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">I say send it in! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

That is the problem with the Bloodlines abilities tho. They are just lvl 35 spells that don't scale with level.. not like the Splitpaw abilities (which are on the same timer as another ability in your repetoire). EVERYONE has this same issue. What do you think Summoners' think of their lvl 35 fixed damage/debuff spell? Or the Sorcerers' Iceflame stuck in lvl 35 damage. The reason I proposed the damage method I did was to keep it in line with all the rest of the abilities. Since they've made a bunch of class' lvl 35 Bloodlines abilities part of their EoF AA's, we really need upgraded versions of these spells, or a change to them so they scale with level. Now, they've let slip into the PvP test server updates (prolly by accident when they did the character autolevels), the lvl 53 versions of the Bloodlines abilities. Personally, I'd prefer the Splitpaw style auto-level, so we don't have to worry about having the higher tiers made, or tracking it down every few levels, etc.

[Zabjade]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>That is the problem with the Bloodlines abilities tho. They are just lvl 35 spells that don't scale with level.. not like the Splitpaw abilities (which are on the same timer as another ability in your repetoire). EVERYONE has this same issue. What do you think Summoners' think of their lvl 35 fixed damage/debuff spell? Or the Sorcerers' Iceflame stuck in lvl 35 damage. The reason I proposed the damage method I did was to keep it in line with all the rest of the abilities. Since they've made a bunch of class' lvl 35 Bloodlines abilities part of their EoF AA's, we really need upgraded versions of these spells, or a change to them so they scale with level. Now, they've let slip into the PvP test server updates (prolly by accident when they did the character autolevels), the lvl 53 versions of the Bloodlines abilities. Personally, I'd prefer the Splitpaw style auto-level, so we don't have to worry about having the higher tiers made, or tracking it down every few levels, etc. </blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">Just out of Curiosity, was one of them an upgrade to Devistation Fist?</span>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">Has anyone else noticed that most people copmplaining about the Aggro stuff seem to forget about the Monks aggro eating abilities? Makes me wonder if we are so far on the untouchable caste that we are ignored.</span>

[Aranieq]

what are talking about thats like saying all you need a is a coercer to harm link everyone.. no one class is owning aggro control... you need massive amounts on both sides from several classes. we raid with 1-3 monks happily.  But we have no coercer or dirge and haven't had a dirge for some time.  We've been handling 28k dps with a very good good hard working assassin.   A monk does not make or break aggro control.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">True, but we can obviously help, and for the first time we actually would have a raid role, something we did not have previously.</span>

[Ramius613]

Well the first they need to fix the abilities so that they actually work according to the update notes. Last I checked, Mongoose Stance still had a target of self. I haven't respecced to the evade check yet, so I don't know if that is working. Also Mogedien is partially correct, even with our aggro vent, and the mongoose stance on an ally or 2, we are still bringing more aggro to the table, as we are giving everyone 15% faster casting speeds (is this working raid wide yet?)

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Ramius613 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the first they need to fix the abilities so that they actually work according to the update notes. Last I checked, Mongoose Stance still had a target of self. </blockquote>I've seen Monks say this before... why did you think this was changing? According to the notes, Mongoose isn't changing to target others. Just increase effectiveness. It's the final Evade Check ability that reduces aggro for others, and that's basically a group effect spell cast, not targetable. The offtank "give avoidance check to another" buff was freed to raidwide.. maybe people are thinking of that? So as far as I've heard, things are working like the Text says... maybe a few folks got the wrong impression or something. As for Devastation Fist, never heard anything about it on the PvP Test server. Don't have a char there, only a couple spells were mentioned in a few posts (specifically I saw necro and druid).

[Gasheron]

<p><b>Monk</b></p><ul><li><b>Alternate: Mongoose Stance: can be cast on a raid ally.</b> </li><li>Enhance: Beckon: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank. </li><li>Enhance: Stare: Also reduces resistibility by 1% per rank. </li><li>Alternate: Mongoose Stance: Increased detaunt effectiveness. </li><li>Enhance: Dragonbreath: Reduced reuse speed bonus from 5 to 4 seconds per rank (but reuse speed of original ability was improved). </li><li>Evade - Renamed Evade Check: Non-fighters in your group have their hate reduced with the encounter. If Dragon Stance is not active, your hate is also reduced with your encounter. </li><li>Enhance: Will of the Void I: Reduced cost to 2 points instead of 3. </li><li>Enhance: Stone Stance: Increased spell mitigation bonus from 4% to 6% per rank. Also improves reuse speed by 6 seconds per rank. </li><li>Enhance: Outward Calm: Also increases duration by 3 seconds per rank. </li><li>Enhance: Tsunami: Increased reuse speed bonus from 7 to 8 seconds per rank. </li><li>Master's Evasion - Renamed Superior Riposte: Ripostes the next attack or reflects the next spell. Increased duration by 5 seconds. </li><li>Enhance Jabs: Instead of 20% casting speed bonus per rank, it improves both casting and recovery speed by 15% per rank.</li></ul>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I was going by Test Notes because I glanced at the Live Notes and they looked the same. Test notes don't have that line. Isn't it a little odd that Live had this snuck in without any testing whatsoever? Considering it wasn't in effect on the Test Server, it makes sense that it wasn't added to the patching of Live servers... And since it was never castable on a target (Self only), and it's basically based off the "taunt proc" fighter buff Monks get (which no Fighter has castable on another person), it sounds like a typo. It's a minor change to go from "cast on target" to "cast on raid target", as opposed to "self only" to "cast on raid target".. yeesh! Maybe someone was thinking the Enhance Martial Order AA was needing to be clarified that it was going to be castable on raid ally, so Hate Transfer/Siphon will become raid-wide, but just got the name of the AA wrong. Not sure why it would need clarification, since it's not an Alternate ability, rather just Enhancing the old ability with a new effect. But that makes more sense than suddenly making your (de)taunt proc from self to target... let alone raidwide target.

[Bladewind]

<p>It is indeed odd, but it was put into the notes...  I specced to it because of the change <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If it is not fixed or ends up being a blooper, I'll be dumping it and the new elude check along with it.  The eldue check is ok as a part of a 3-pack of aggro control abilities, but, since uncontested is still jacked, that makes our hate transfer de facto undesirable since the the avoidance portion of the buff is junk.  We don't need a self-only dethreat proc, and the elude check by itself offers minimal impact.</p><p>If mongoose was on it's own timer and target castable across raid as the patch notes imply, and uncontested was fixed so our avoid buff with hate xfer augment was desirable, this would be a wonderful trio of utility abilities useful for both tanking and raiding.  As they stand now, they are pretty bleh.</p>

[Gasheron]

I agree completely Kaisoku, it was prob an error, and they wrote down the wrong AA. However, that is where a lot of people are getting that information, and why there are so many comments about it, that's all I was pointing out.

[Couching]

It's really sad that no matter it works or not, there is no aggro management problem in raid, at least in my guild. It's still too trivial for guardian or zerker or pal to hold mobs off dps classes. <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I didn't include sk since we don't have sk in guild.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">The only thing to do is keep up the pressure and to keep listing the basics of what we need in case the Devs just look at the latest page.</span>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">It's been a while since anyone has posted here I was wondering if anything new has happened? How are the changes hurting or helping Bruisers and Monks? How do we suggest changes to the developers on still ongoing problems of avoidance and DPS?</span>

[BChizzle]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">It's been a while since anyone has posted here I was wondering if anything new has happened? How are the changes hurting or helping Bruisers and Monks? How do we suggest changes to the developers on still ongoing problems of avoidance and DPS?</span></blockquote> In my raid yesterday the MT guard was sitting at 74% avoid.  Now in the same group I might come in pretty close to 80%.  Is the 6% extra avoid even close to equal to the 2-3k extra mit a plate tank has?  Till they even that out or finally just say brawlers aren't tanks we are out of luck. For dps, its tough, I think we are right where we need to be if we are going to stay as a tank.  If we lose the tank role another 500 dps would be nice!

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">If you are a Bruiser then you might be where you need to be DPS wise but Monks sit at zero unless they go unarmed with the strength line, or buy DPS gear (Soulclencher's/Wu's), max out their Crane line (Short Tsunami-like buff type). Monks tend to drowned in Haste rather then DPS. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now I just need to get enough AA's to get the raid level abilities for monks. </span></p>

[Timaarit]

The total nerf of Master's Evasion really hurt my monk. That is something I really want to see changed back to the way it was.

[Zabjade]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>The total nerf of Master's Evasion really hurt my monk. That is something I really want to see changed back to the way it was. </blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Speaking of evasion like ablities i beleive Monk avoidance issues where recognised in one of the fan fair Q&A's. Unfortunatly the devs apparently still have no idea how to fix it. </span>

[Nerill]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timaarit wrote: <span style="color: #00cc00">Speaking of evasion like ablities i beleive Monk avoidance issues where recognised in one of the fan fair Q&A's. Unfortunatly the devs apparently still have no idea how to fix it. </span></blockquote><i>Shocker ! </i><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zabjade]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timaarit wrote: <span style="color: #00cc00">Speaking of evasion like ablities i beleive Monk avoidance issues where recognised in one of the fan fair Q&A's. Unfortunatly the devs apparently still have no idea how to fix it. </span></blockquote><i>Shocker ! </i><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">No, that's the Multi-hit damage buff that you could at one time front load, and after you used it up, hit it again for those big fights. <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>Lets see "Monk" or one of the 23 other better Classes to take on a Raid ........................</p><p> I think the end is near for my Monk - My Coercer is 70 now, I get distraught on having to sit-out on Raids all the time and forsee never getting my full EOF set since I'm constantly on the bench, but what do I have to offer as a Monk? Can I really blame my raid leader? NO</p><p>There have been so many ideas of improvement in the Monk Forums, but noone cares, Monk is a solo and group class is my final conclusion. Not meant to raid - please put that in the Character Select screen so people don't waste there time if they want to raid @ 70. Most top raid guild only have a Bruiser if any Brawlers at all.</p><p>I always see the cheerleaders saying nothing is wrong - I have played a monk for 1000+ days and have had a full-set of excarnate, crescent, and most of my EOF and all the nice (lol ) Brawler weapons, DT and FTH proc crap, KOS/EOF contested non-avatar drops. I keep thinking its gonna get better next LUI or next expansion..............it never does.</p><p>Blah Blah I can parse 1200-2000k, can't hold aggro on group mobs, can't rescue even with rescue most of the time, can't buff/debuff, can't take most EOF Raid content due to avoid sucking FTL. Our guard parses more than me and tanks like a champ.The best thing about my Monk is solo/group content and giving me time to level two 70 alts during raid time (Fury and Coercer)</p><p>Thx Hereo</p>

[Etchii]

They'll fix it soon, don't worrythen Tier 8 will come

[Zabjade]

<b>Brawler </b><ul><li><i>Devastation Fist</i> - Improved reuse speed from 5 to 3 minutes. Can now be used against all NPC opponents, but damage varies depending on the difficulty of the opponent. Self-stifle duration is now set to 10 seconds.</li></ul><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Woot, some Brawler loving, at least damage wise, still could use some help in taking spike damage </span><i><span style="color: #00cc00;">(even the trash mobs in Castle Mistmore seem capable of overloading me with it</span>)</i></p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>I copied my Monk to test</p><p>100% on even con or down arrows</p><p>25% on up arrows</p><p>NERFED already on EPICS! Epic says 4% and 1% damage of your health, but Dev posted on Monk Forums this is already changing.</p><p> 22% Haste will be raid-wide</p><p>NOW IF WE HAD ONE MORE GROUP BUFF, maybe our Proc dmg or Str/WIS buff</p><p>Make Dragon Stance a group Taunt proc --its crazy the groupaggroit is now -my Level 65 <b><u><span style="font-size: medium;">Dragonbreath does 150/tick damage at Master ??? [Removed for Content] is that for a level 65 Spell???????? my Fury fire carpet does better damage than that!</span></u></b></p><p>KOS STR Unarmed tweaked down for weapons  OR +WIS AE 16%  AA's tweaked to scale with weapons we might actually get a RAID spot!</p>

[lagerone]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Brawler </b><ul><li><i>Devastation Fist</i> - Improved reuse speed from 5 to 3 minutes. Can now be used against all NPC opponents, but damage varies depending on the difficulty of the opponent. Self-stifle duration is now set to 10 seconds.</li></ul><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Woot, some Brawler loving, at least damage wise, still could use some help in taking spike damage </span><i><span style="color: #00cc00;">(even the trash mobs in Castle Mistmore seem capable of overloading me with it</span>)</i></p></blockquote>I am keen to understand what this means.  Can DF still one shot a non-arrow-up mob?  If DF can do around 14k to a single target how does it scale up for heroic and epic mobs?

[PaganSaint]

Hereo that may be 4% to x2's or to the mobs in the large groups of ^^^ x4's

[Couching]

DF is nerfed. It's no longer 1% of epic. It will be a fix damage rather than 1%.

[tt66]

Because god knows that a Brawler doing an entire 1% of the health of an epic is just way too much.Inquisitors doing 2%? Oh, that's absolutely fine, no problem with that.. but a Brawler doing half that? Oh wait! Verdict is a level 65 spell! Totally different...Yeah, well I'll believe that argument when <b>my</b> level 65 spell will actually chain-stun an epic...I love the fact that SoE is now panicking because of the damage done in the Absolute Best Case Scenario (brawlers using dev fist on the hardest epic in the game), as if that was going to be how it would be used in reality.Ugh. I mean, did they code this change without thinking about it? There seems to be real shock that 1% of an epicx4 is really Quite A Lot Of Health.Ah.. I'm just bummed because this was a real chance for brawlers to have raid utility.  I mean, I'll be impressed if the static amount that they replace it with is actually impressive but.. eh. I doubt it will be. For some reason Sony seem terrified of giving Brawlers something to do in a raid.(Which is really weird, when you think about it. I got the impression that all the complaining about Brawlers involved Feign Death and the fact that we can solo most of SoS. I don't recall anyone complaining that we were hogging raid spots!)Sigh. For those Hell-bound whom the Devil really wants to punish, he first gives visions of Heaven...

[mr23sgte]

Well, if it were a warrior Bloodline spell --it would of probaly got boosted to 2% and been fine!

[tt66]

Oh for.. this is it? A 3.5k attack that stifles you for 10 seconds?Wow. Well that truly was worth it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[mr23sgte]

I guess we should be used to this by now, apparently noone in Development is crazy enough to roll a raiding Brawler b/c they know they would be sitting on the banch @ raids.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">It does indeed appear that way to me. Wish we could afford to bribe them but I have to buy my Legendaries and Fableds are out of the question. </span>

[lagerone]

<p>1% was the right figure for epics.  I had a look at the damage for a non-arrow in MMC and that was 21k.</p><p>89k for a mob like Mayong would seem appropriately scaled.  I assumed the balancing factor was basically as you're stunned (cannot feign) and just did 1% of the mobs health in damage that you would almost certainly draw aggro and die.</p><p>There are very few raiding Brawlers these days.  On the bright side, at least you don't have to worry about DKP because you're unlikey to have a competitor.  I would like to see us back as a DPS class with limited tanking abilities.  Given that we cannot tank raid mobs the only thing we can practically bring to raids is DPS.  Personally I wish Bruisers were back where they were at L50 before LU 13 (or whatever it was <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  When we were a solid DPS class.  A hybrid between scouts and tanks.  Anything to bring utility back to a stale class is welcomed.  In fact, I think most of the people who pushed for the downgrade of Brawler DPS no longer play the class.  Guess it comes down to the old addage...be careful what you wish for.</p>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Agreed 1% is not that overpowering, that leaves 99% for everyone else no matter the actual HP of the Epic.</span>

[mr23sgte]

How about some Brawler AA love on GU 41 Devs ------

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Looks like it will have to wait for 42, although now you can hit FD and stand up <i>(Although you could just hit "X&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></i></span>

[Junaru]

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about some Brawler AA love on GU 41 Devs ------ </blockquote>Wow blast from the past thread.I don't know if SOE will ever fix/change Brawler AA's. 37 pages of suggestions/rants/cries hasn't even gotten their attention. I doubt anything at this point will.

[mattmandude]

-Strength line incompatible with Epic weapon-Feign Death nerf-Very low/poor monk itemization in RoK-Useless end line abilities in the Monk Tree-Broken AvoidanceAnd many many more things (Tsunami not working at the written percent in all circumstances, Devastating Fists still stunning on a fail, etc.)It's very very very very very tiring at this point to be a monk =/

[Shotneedle]

<p>Since they're never going to fix us, can I just ask for them to reclass me so i can be a 70 SK or something?</p><p>And the last thing we need right now is more nerfing...</p>

[Kaleyen]

Right now I really sympathize with the Brawlers.  SOE should give every Brawler a free one time class respec card because they have done nothing to develop or support the class, all they have done is continually break them.

[Siclone]

WE have two Brawlers in our raid, one monk and one bruiser, both are very valuable to the raid force.   Two of the most important members.  Could not do what we do without them good dps and good off tanks, if not MT.you guys been clogging up the testing feedback with complaints on two of the better classes in the game for a very long time now, all you guys are, are glass half empty people.I would say, learn how to play your class, cause if you think Brawlers suck you have no clue on what your doing.  I ask our bralwers, you guys rock great parse and a tank, why all the negative on the soe boards they just shake their head and say, -them guys have no idea-the bruiser goes on and says, Brusiers been overpowered for a long time and now we are even more so....take a look on how your playing, ask advice of other bruisers that kick butt, don't be afraid to ask questions, learn the game,,,,,oh and for god sakes take your issues to the Bruiser forums, please

[Heart-a-gram888]

I personally love my (73) Bruiser, always have. I love his dps out put and i have agi his primary stat so he tanks just fine (especially with a druid/shaman healer). Only complaint i have is that people dont see brawlers as tanks, you MUST have plate armor. And for some reason people also dont see brawler as DPS (riiiiight) because theyre are of fighter subclass. It's quite difficult for me to get a group and when I do finally get one I always feel like it out of pitty, like Im a handicap. I'v tanked instance groups by default because the tank went LD or one couldnt be found and literally every time iv tanked, i always receieve compliments and, "I like this tank better than the other!" (which was a warrior/crusader) and Iv been called upon by those few people to tank other groups ever since. So theres not a problem with the brawler, theres a problem with EVERYONE ELSE. Thats alright though because I solo mobs 4 levels higher than me =)If I could change something about the brawler that would make sense if they actually implimented is that Agility should add to power... Since we're clearly agi/dps tanks, we dont get nearly enough mit with leather armor, high agility and dodging attacks his our main defence (and deflection etc.) so when we get hit, it stings sometimes. Quite often, adding items giving high agility means removing items that give high strength thereby lessening our power pool. Crusaders have Str+ int/wis. Give Brawlers Str+Agi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and P.S. The quest items in RoK benefit everyone other possible class except the brawler, that should be fixed as well (although i hear that t8 instances drop brawler gear quite frequently). And the T8 MC leather armor has too low of mit

[tt66]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>WE have two Brawlers in our raid, one monk and one bruiser, both are very valuable to the raid force.   Two of the most important members.  Could not do what we do without them good dps and good off tanks, if not MT.you guys been clogging up the testing feedback with complaints on two of the better classes in the game for a very long time now, all you guys are, are glass half empty people.I would say, learn how to play your class, cause if you think Brawlers suck you have no clue on what your doing.  I ask our bralwers, you guys rock great parse and a tank, why all the negative on the soe boards they just shake their head and say, -them guys have no idea-the bruiser goes on and says, Brusiers been overpowered for a long time and now we are even more so....take a look on how your playing, ask advice of other bruisers that kick butt, don't be afraid to ask questions, learn the game,,,,,oh and for god sakes take your issues to the Bruiser forums, please</blockquote>Ok guys, it's just <b>Siclone</b> again, the guy who keeps complaining his assassin is outparsed by a bruiser. Simply put, he's a troll.He has a history of trying to derail brawler threads into flamefests in attempt to get them closed (check his posting history if you don't believe me). So remember the troll-drill. Everyone ignore him and he won't get the response he's looking for. We've avoided the FD nerfbat today, lets make sure this thread is seen by the devs in a positive light.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">With FD returned to normal, with an actual dev response even. I hope we can bring our issues to the developers with a positive spin.Most common complaints:• Avoidance(Solo & Group) and uncontested avoidance issues(Raid)• Raid Utility: The Aggro dump is a step in the right direction for utility when we are not a tank or off tank, a little more aggro pulling would be helpful however.• Strength Line: Most favored revamp (For upcoming epics) is a reduced DPS for an armed Brawler.• Itemization: It can be hard for Brawlers to find good armor, a lot of the leather and weapons are geared to a Druid classes. This lends to fewer brawlers overall as well.I'm sure that there are several other Brawler main players who are more then willing to help you fix the class, We have no desire to be uber, just needed.</span>

[Novusod]

Another issue I would like to add to the list is the bugged Devistation fist where some Brawlers can use it on named while others cannot. There should only be one standard devistation fist for brawlers. Either make it so everyone can use it on named or no one can.

[x0rtrun]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">With FD returned to normal, with an actual dev response even. I hope we can bring our issues to the developers with a positive spin.</span></blockquote>Technically Gnobrin isn't a dev. He's customer service. We've had no discussion or explanation as to what was intended with this change or why they decided to back away from it.

[Gungo]

<p>Since the last dev response i really do not know why i bother discussing this anymore since they basically said they do not even listen to brawler concerns anymore. </p><p>But the devs have several issues in fixing brawlers.the main issue is we are a class unlike any other class in eq2.we are a the only non plate tank class.We are the only non chain melee dps classwe are the only melee dps class that cant use swords daggers axes or the other common dps items.we are the only class that uses deflection.we are the only class that uses fist weapons</p><p>these are huge glaring itemization issues which could easily be fixed1) GET RID OF DELFECTION. There is no reason 1 class to have thier own itemized ability which is actually worse then the other fighters defense ability in block. SOLUTION. turn all +deflection items into +block this will fix the discrepency in broken brawler avodiance and make itemization easier since 18 classes uses the block skill. </p><p>2) Open up all fist weapons to scouts (or predators). Open up daggers to brawlers. This allows developers to create more weapons that can be used by more classes providing better selections for both classes.</p><p>3) create 2 types of leather armour for itemization and build the classes around them. You got the caster/heal Int/wis/str/sta/agi type. Caster version with plus heal and plus spell damage. Then you got the melee dps type + melee/defensive str/sta/wis/agi/int type. Melee version with plus melee abilities and defensive bonuses. (this also means leaving Gi's and other brawler look type items to both druids and brawlers, occasionally scouts)</p><p>SOLUTION: Allow both druids and brawlers a better opportunity to use both versions of leather gear. You have abilites that add +200 damage to the next spell or combat art. Create leather gear with +200 to the next heal or combat art. Have the group heal proc on all the healer leather gear in ROK proc on the next successful spell or combat art. Oppurtunities like this provide both brawlers and druids tangible benefits from the same gear.</p><p>4) another idea is to open up chain to brawlers.</p><p>What the above solutions does is allow itemization team an easier time in creating more armour usable by more classes AND allow the abilites on that gear to effect more classes. </p>

[Junaru]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since the last dev response i really do not know why i bother discussing this anymore since they basically said they do not even listen to brawler concerns anymore. </p><p>But the devs have several issues in fixing brawlers.the main issue is we are a class unlike any other class in eq2.we are a the only non plate tank class.We are the only non chain melee dps classwe are the only melee dps class that cant use swords daggers axes or the other common dps items.we are the only class that uses deflection.we are the only class that uses fist weapons</p><p>these are huge glaring itemization issues which could easily be fixed1) GET RID OF DELFECTION. There is no reason 1 class to have thier own itemized ability which is actually worse then the other fighters defense ability in block. SOLUTION. turn all +deflection items into +block this will fix the discrepency in broken brawler avodiance and make itemization easier since 18 classes uses the block skill. </p><p>2) Open up all fist weapons to scouts (or predators). Open up daggers to brawlers. This allows developers to create more weapons that can be used by more classes providing better selections for both classes.</p><p>3) create 2 types of leather armour for itemization and build the classes around them. You got the caster/heal Int/wis/str/sta/agi type. Caster version with plus heal and plus spell damage. Then you got the melee dps type + melee/defensive str/sta/wis/agi/int type. Melee version with plus melee abilities and defensive bonuses. (this also means leaving Gi's and other brawler look type items to both druids and brawlers, occasionally scouts)</p><p>SOLUTION: Allow both druids and brawlers a better opportunity to use both versions of leather gear. You have abilites that add +200 damage to the next spell or combat art. Create leather gear with +200 to the next heal or combat art. Have the group heal proc on all the healer leather gear in ROK proc on the next successful spell or combat art. Oppurtunities like this provide both brawlers and druids tangible benefits from the same gear.</p><p>4) another idea is to open up chain to brawlers.</p><p>What the above solutions does is allow itemization team an easier time in creating more armour usable by more classes AND allow the abilites on that gear to effect more classes. </p></blockquote>I agree. I suggested SOE give Brawlers the ability to use chain armor awhile ago. But I suggested it as an AA ability. But I now I see a flaw in that. I think it should be just a straight up ability to use chain.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=357590�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...90�</a>

[Bladewind]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since the last dev response i really do not know why i bother discussing this anymore since they basically said they do not even listen to brawler concerns anymore. </p><p>But the devs have several issues in fixing brawlers.the main issue is we are a class unlike any other class in eq2.we are a the only non plate tank class.We are the only non chain melee dps classwe are the only melee dps class that cant use swords daggers axes or the other common dps items.we are the only class that uses deflection.we are the only class that uses fist weapons</p><p>these are huge glaring itemization issues which could easily be fixed1) GET RID OF DELFECTION. There is no reason 1 class to have thier own itemized ability which is actually worse then the other fighters defense ability in block. SOLUTION. turn all +deflection items into +block this will fix the discrepency in broken brawler avodiance and make itemization easier since 18 classes uses the block skill. </p><p>2) Open up all fist weapons to scouts (or predators). Open up daggers to brawlers. This allows developers to create more weapons that can be used by more classes providing better selections for both classes.</p><p>3) create 2 types of leather armour for itemization and build the classes around them. You got the caster/heal Int/wis/str/sta/agi type. Caster version with plus heal and plus spell damage. Then you got the melee dps type + melee/defensive str/sta/wis/agi/int type. Melee version with plus melee abilities and defensive bonuses. (this also means leaving Gi's and other brawler look type items to both druids and brawlers, occasionally scouts)</p><p>SOLUTION: Allow both druids and brawlers a better opportunity to use both versions of leather gear. You have abilites that add +200 damage to the next spell or combat art. Create leather gear with +200 to the next heal or combat art. Have the group heal proc on all the healer leather gear in ROK proc on the next successful spell or combat art. Oppurtunities like this provide both brawlers and druids tangible benefits from the same gear.</p><p>4) another idea is to open up chain to brawlers.</p><p>What the above solutions does is allow itemization team an easier time in creating more armour usable by more classes AND allow the abilites on that gear to effect more classes. </p></blockquote><p>Some solid ideas in there.  The only glaring issue I see with brawlers ability-wise is that we still are gimped on uncontested avoidance, giving us an inherent disadvantage in raiding situations.  Whether that is remedied by making a significant portion of base deflection always uncontested or doing a consolidation of avoidance by turning deflection into block makes little difference to me, so long as brawlers have inherent block in the place of deflection in the latter case.</p><p>If the avoidance skill consolidation were to happen, it would make itemization much easier, since battle wardens and brawlers would both seek out similar gear.  Block could be applied as a bonus to all types of armor except cloth, for the benefit of brawlers, melee-spec healers, and shield-spec scouts in addition to plate tanks.</p><p>I don't really see any reason for making brawlers chain wearers at all.  We just need our uncontested fixed to be roughly equal in survivability to plate tanks in raids.  In heroic situations, where uncontested has relatively minor effects, we already are.</p><p>As far as itemization goes, the addition of battle-priest and brawler gear to the faction merchants is a step in the right direction, but I really worry about loot drops/quest rewards for melee-spec healers at levels beyond 75/Kunzar.  There is at least a decent amount of brawler loot in the mob loot tables, but how many pieces of quality leather and chain have str/wis, on combat art heal/beneficial procs, and/or on attack healing/beneficial procs?  I also dislike having to buy worthwhile gear at the tune of 5-7 plat per piece when all other classes get items of similar quality as free quest rewards.  </p><p>Anaphylaxis is another sore spot since the scout weapon was added in a few days, but it was declared that it would be too difficult to add a brawler weapon.  That makes no sense.  If adding loot items that benefit melee-spec healers and/or brawlers to quest reward tables is so much of a chore, how about at least letting them filter in through mob loot tables?</p><p>Edit regarding standing AA issues:  </p><p>The strength line should also be amended to allow for weapon use.  Boxes 2,4, and 5 are fine as-is, and box 3 could be given 3% double attack per rank (no 20 dps bonus at rank 1) when weapons are equipped, and the original conditional 20 dps in rank 1 with 12% double attack per rank when both hands are empty.</p><p>There are other long standing AA issues as well, but I am blue in the face about them, so I will stay mum  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rainmare]

<cite>Hamoto@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is to the Devs</p><p>Give us back our Double attack... PLEASE... make it scale.... maybe something like this</p><p>Caster will double attack on 24% of  attacks  (3% per rank) Caster will double attack on 48% of attacks   (6% per rank) - If secondary slot is empty Caster will double attack on 24% of attacks   (3% per rank) - If primary slot is empty</p><p>This would allow use to get a 24% double attack with dual wield, or a 2her, 72% double attack with a 1her, or 96% double attack with no weapons... maybe the numbers could be tweaked abit, but this would make EVERYONE happy... </p><p>Also, you need to get rid of the proccing BS on the wisdom line, and make it a 40% AE auto attack like all the other melee classes...</p><p>And to fix our tanking (aggro holding ability) (this has been mentioned before on the monk forums) take away our on attack aggro proc, and give us a 100% on deflection aggro proc (being that deflection is about 40-50% of my avoids, it should be pretty equal to a warrior's 50% on hit aggro), this would go along with the avoidance tank situation, and allow us much better AoE aggro.</p><p>to end... this is a list of the classes that get the stuff we are asking for... yet... they would be... overpowered?.. for brawlers?</p><p>I would be fine with any one of the below, both would be preferable, don't even realy care about numbers as long as the double attack is above 20% and the AE auto attack is above 25% I would be happy </p><p>Warriors - 60% double attack, 40% AE auto attack Crusaders - 40% AE auto attack Predators - 28% AE auto attack Rogues - 68% double attack Swashbucklers - 55% AE auto attack Bards - 54% double attack Druids - 40% double attack Shamans - 35% double attack Enchanters - 40% double attack Clerics - 52% double attack Summoner Pet - 20% double attack</p></blockquote>I'm a crusader...paladin. I don't see anything that gives me a 40% AE autoattack. what aa or piece of gear is that?

[Bladewind]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hamoto@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Warriors - 60% double attack, 40% AE auto attackCrusaders - 40% AE auto attackPredators - 28% AE auto attackRogues - 68% double attackSwashbucklers - 55% AE auto attackBards - 54% double attackDruids - 40% double attackShamans - 35% double attackEnchanters - 40% double attackClerics - 52% double attackSummoner Pet - 20% double attack</p></blockquote>I'm a crusader...paladin. I don't see anything that gives me a 40% AE autoattack. what aa or piece of gear is that?</blockquote>Open up your KoS AA tree and look at Agility 3: Trample.  It gives you 5% aoe auto attack per rank, yielding 40% aoe autoattack with 8 points in the skill.

[Rayche]

I'd like to see fist wraps turned into an OPEN hand weapon as well. That way Brawlers can use the STR line without penalty and still be able to have items they can put power tap augs in and not lose huge stats.Then the Brawler Epics can be fist wraps and not ruin the STR line as well.

[Sorffats]

<cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes warriors can spend AA to <span style="color: #990000;">come close</span> to brawler DPS but we sacrafice avoidance for it.  If you guys could have an AA that gave you a almost towershield block rate, plus deflection, plus the DPS you already do, you would become raid MT's.  Plain and simple the way the game works now(from a MT view) is hp, avoidance, mit in that order.  You guys already have us beat on hp, this would easily put you over on avoidance(since block is uncontested) and your mit is relativly close to berserker/guard.  You expect all this from a hybrid class?Also i dont think you know how warrior AA's work.  No way a warrior can touch a brawler on DPS if they have the "tsunami" skill you mentioned.  We also dont have "brawler DPS".  Im one of the top parsing zerkers WW and i know several brawlers who can easily smash me with much lesser gear on my server alone.  Not to mention if we were talking about people like sardonis, i wouldnt stand a chance.  </blockquote><p>Are you kidding me?  Berserkers consistently out dps me, unless I use knockout combo.  With knockout's cooldown, I can only use it about every third engagement.   Incidentally, I'm a bruiser, so I don't have tsunami; that is a monk ability, not brawler.   As leather wearers, how do we have you beat on hp?   And have you seen the mitigation on leather armor versus a similar tier plate armor?   </p><p>The simple truth is that brawlers get the short end of the nerfbat every time we turn around.   We are supposed to be the epitomy of martial arts in eq2 and we should have the dps to show that but we don't.   We sacrifice alot being leather wearers.  At one time, our avoidance was good, so it offset the low mitigation given by leather gear.  Not only did we get a nerf to our avoidance, but it is broken.  Our avoidance checks aren't checking as they are supposed to be.   We offer absolutely nothing to a group or raid that another class can't provide better.   The absolutely only thing that we provide is FD (great in times of a wipe, bad pull, etc.; so long as the healers remembered to cast the rez items), and that's even getting hit with the nerf bat.</p><p>It's as if we SOE were trying to erase our class from the game one nerf at a time.   We have to constantly change our aa's, equiptment, and weapons just to try to keep up with the nerfs and to be a viable part of a group and/or raid.  We absolutely have to have the best possible gear we can get just so we can keep up with the average other classes.   We aren't asking to out dps scouts and casters, but we'd certainly like to be able to at least keep up with other fighter classes in dps.   We should be the top dpsing class of all fighters, but we aren't.   </p>

[Sorffats]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>WE have two Brawlers in our raid, one monk and one bruiser, both are very valuable to the raid force.   Two of the most important members.  Could not do what we do without them good dps and good off tanks, if not MT.you guys been clogging up the testing feedback with complaints on two of the better classes in the game for a very long time now, all you guys are, are glass half empty people.I would say, learn how to play your class, cause if you think Brawlers suck you have no clue on what your doing.  I ask our bralwers, you guys rock great parse and a tank, why all the negative on the soe boards they just shake their head and say, -them guys have no idea-the bruiser goes on and says, Brusiers been overpowered for a long time and now we are even more so....take a look on how your playing, ask advice of other bruisers that kick butt, don't be afraid to ask questions, learn the game,,,,,oh and for god sakes take your issues to the Bruiser forums, please</blockquote><p>Personally, I think you made this up, but I'll bite.   I don't think there is a brawler out there that is "ok" with the nerfs we have gotten every time we turn around.   At one point, some of the nerfs were justifiable....like 3 years ago when we were a bit over powered.  But there lies the problem...SOE hasn't stopped nerfing us.   They toned us down.  Ok, np, we still carried on.   Then we get hit with avoidance nerfs, tankability nerfs, class defining skills nefs, dps nerfs, etc.</p><p>There are brawlers who do put out decent dps, but nothing nears as to what it should be for our class.  There are the very few bruisers that are extremely well geared and played that have the best of what the brawler class can have.  But I'm still convinced that even if you ask them, they'd tell you that they shouldn't have to be so uberly geared to put out what they are putting out.   </p><p>About taking the issues to the bruiser forums.  They are there.  This is a testing feedback forum, and we are feeding back after testing our newest nerfs and at the same time reiterating the problems that brawlers currently have.   So far, nothing has been done to fix the stuff that is broken.  Avoidance is broken, it's plain and simple.   So, I'll politely say that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.</p>

[Junaru]

<cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>WE have two Brawlers in our raid, one monk and one bruiser, both are very valuable to the raid force.   Two of the most important members.  Could not do what we do without them good dps and good off tanks, if not MT.you guys been clogging up the testing feedback with complaints on two of the better classes in the game for a very long time now, all you guys are, are glass half empty people.I would say, learn how to play your class, cause if you think Brawlers suck you have no clue on what your doing.  I ask our bralwers, you guys rock great parse and a tank, why all the negative on the soe boards they just shake their head and say, -them guys have no idea-the bruiser goes on and says, Brusiers been overpowered for a long time and now we are even more so....take a look on how your playing, ask advice of other bruisers that kick butt, don't be afraid to ask questions, learn the game,,,,,oh and for god sakes take your issues to the Bruiser forums, please</blockquote><p>Personally, I think you made this up, but I'll bite.   I don't think there is a brawler out there that is "ok" with the nerfs we have gotten every time we turn around.   At one point, some of the nerfs were justifiable....like 3 years ago when we were a bit over powered.  But there lies the problem...SOE hasn't stopped nerfing us.   They toned us down.  Ok, np, we still carried on.   Then we get hit with avoidance nerfs, tankability nerfs, class defining skills nefs, dps nerfs, etc.</p><p>There are brawlers who do put out decent dps, but nothing nears as to what it should be for our class.  There are the very few bruisers that are extremely well geared and played that have the best of what the brawler class can have.  But I'm still convinced that even if you ask them, they'd tell you that they shouldn't have to be so uberly geared to put out what they are putting out.   </p><p>About taking the issues to the bruiser forums.  They are there.  This is a testing feedback forum, and we are feeding back after testing our newest nerfs and at the same time reiterating the problems that brawlers currently have.   So far, nothing has been done to fix the stuff that is broken.  Avoidance is broken, it's plain and simple.   So, I'll politely say that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.</p></blockquote>Don't bother. Siclone has already show is ability to lie out his [Removed for Content] when it comes to Brawlers. He constantly misquotes Brawlers mostly from eq2flames.com. The last time he was saying Brawlers parse 3k raid wide because one of the top geared Brawler (and I mean TOP) said he parsed 3k zone wide but later found out he meant on named mobs not zone wide.

[malykii]

<cite>Aedyl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hamoto@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Warriors - 60% double attack, 40% AE auto attackCrusaders - 40% AE auto attackPredators - 28% AE auto attackRogues - 68% double attackSwashbucklers - 55% AE auto attackBards - 54% double attackDruids - 40% double attackShamans - 35% double attackEnchanters - 40% double attackClerics - 52% double attackSummoner Pet - 20% double attack</p></blockquote>I'm a crusader...paladin. I don't see anything that gives me a 40% AE autoattack. what aa or piece of gear is that?</blockquote>Open up your KoS AA tree and look at Agility 3: Trample.  It gives you 5% aoe auto attack per rank, yielding 40% aoe autoattack with 8 points in the skill.</blockquote><p>One thing you aren't taking into account is that most of those double attacks are with ONE hand only, with NO weopon in their offhand.  You are making it out like its some huge godsent when its not.  The double attack is just there to balance out them using a shield instead of duel wielding.  Furthermore, Shamans don't get 35% double attack its only like 16%, unless they changed it, and that also requires a buckler in your offhand.  Warriors have to have a buckler in their offhand also, and not speaking on behalf of all warrior, but I know I didn't use a buckler because your avoidance goes way down.  Its only usefull when tanking heroic encounters, so that leaves them with only 8% double attack if they choose another line, which most do.  </p><p>The other thing I would like to bring up is this idea of uncontested avoidance.  Half of the people in this thread don't even know what they are talking about.  Warriors are the only fighter class to get higher uncontested avoidance than brawler.  The people that keep claiming that knights do are wrong.  Knights have the lowest uncontested avoidance of any fighter class.  The other thing is that block only has a 90 degree frontal cone effectiveness, where as deflection is 360 degrees.  Now this doesnt make up for the difference in uncontested avoidance, or the fact that plate healers still can heal a knight or warrior easier because of their mitigation.  It is always going to be that warrior make the best raid tanks.  That is what they are built for, to be the MT. </p>

[malykii]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since the last dev response i really do not know why i bother discussing this anymore since they basically said they do not even listen to brawler concerns anymore. </p><p>But the devs have several issues in fixing brawlers.the main issue is we are a class unlike any other class in eq2.we are a the only non plate tank class.We are the only non chain melee dps classwe are the only melee dps class that cant use swords daggers axes or the other common dps items.we are the only class that uses deflection.we are the only class that uses fist weapons</p><p>these are huge glaring itemization issues which could easily be fixed1) GET RID OF DELFECTION. There is no reason 1 class to have thier own itemized ability which is actually worse then the other fighters defense ability in block. SOLUTION. turn all +deflection items into +block this will fix the discrepency in broken brawler avodiance and make itemization easier since 18 classes uses the block skill. </p><p>2) Open up all fist weapons to scouts (or predators). Open up daggers to brawlers. This allows developers to create more weapons that can be used by more classes providing better selections for both classes.</p><p>3) create 2 types of leather armour for itemization and build the classes around them. You got the caster/heal Int/wis/str/sta/agi type. Caster version with plus heal and plus spell damage. Then you got the melee dps type + melee/defensive str/sta/wis/agi/int type. Melee version with plus melee abilities and defensive bonuses. (this also means leaving Gi's and other brawler look type items to both druids and brawlers, occasionally scouts)</p><p>SOLUTION: Allow both druids and brawlers a better opportunity to use both versions of leather gear. You have abilites that add +200 damage to the next spell or combat art. Create leather gear with +200 to the next heal or combat art. Have the group heal proc on all the healer leather gear in ROK proc on the next successful spell or combat art. Oppurtunities like this provide both brawlers and druids tangible benefits from the same gear.</p><p>4) another idea is to open up chain to brawlers.</p><p>What the above solutions does is allow itemization team an easier time in creating more armour usable by more classes AND allow the abilites on that gear to effect more classes. </p></blockquote><p>1) Changing deflection to block won't "change" any discrepancy. Furthermore, lets see you block a sword with your hand=). Doesn't really make a hole lot of sense. We aren't carrying shields so how are we going to block anything. They just need to enhance the amount of uncontested deflection ability we get.</p><p>2) Why don't we just let enchanters use axes while we are at it too gungo. Yep, the assassin is going to slice your throat with a fist weapon. That doesn't fit into any scout lore in this game or any other of the 4 mmorpg I have ever played. I agree monks should be able to use dagger piercing weapons because it does fit with our character, but come on get real.</p><p>3) From what I have seen in RoK so far and in the game in general this is how it is already done. In RoK a lot of the combat based leather armor has +combat art and the heal based has +heal. So far from what I have seen the mit on the leather armor isn't a huge upgrade though. For melee speced warden this would be nice but what is the point; other than soloing you have taken their strongest asset and crippled it by making their melee a little better.</p><p>4) I am not even going to respond to this part because it is the stupidest thing I have heard. Almost as stupid as making berserker wear plate armor. Neither fit with the lore of the game or any other game out there. Most games I have seen, the highest a zerker can wear is chain, if not leather, but they do heavy amounts of damage with two hand weapons as the trade-off. You sure you weren't a dev when the game came out gungo. That is kind of the same thinking, giving monks the ability to wear chain/rolls eyes. Heck why don't we let all classes wear plate armor, be able to use axes, and nuke for 5k. Lets just throw class defining items and skills out the door so everyone is equal, just so you can do everything the other guy can do. To hell with ingenuity and intelligence. </p>

[malykii]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since the last dev response i really do not know why i bother discussing this anymore since they basically said they do not even listen to brawler concerns anymore. </p></blockquote><p>Because if the dev's gave brawlers what they wanted they could dps like scouts yet tank like a guard.  How is that fair?  With the moderate changes they made with our raid buff and group deagro, I am pretty happy where I stand.  I can off tank if I need to, put up pretty nice dps, and offer good raid support.  </p><p>Brawler like to compair themselves to zerker as far as dps.  Its like compairing a warlock to a wizard.  Put a brawler or wizard on a single or two mob encounter and they will out dps them.  On a multi mob encounter of three or more there is just no way.  The utility of the classes are different.</p><p>Personally if I had my choice, I would rather tank better but do less dps.  If the dev's are going to make any changes to us we are going to have to sacrifice something.  I hope you realize this.</p>

[Gungo]

<cite>Malykii@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aedyl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hamoto@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Warriors - 60% double attack, 40% AE auto attackCrusaders - 40% AE auto attackPredators - 28% AE auto attackRogues - 68% double attackSwashbucklers - 55% AE auto attackBards - 54% double attackDruids - 40% double attackShamans - 35% double attackEnchanters - 40% double attackClerics - 52% double attackSummoner Pet - 20% double attack</p></blockquote>I'm a crusader...paladin. I don't see anything that gives me a 40% AE autoattack. what aa or piece of gear is that?</blockquote>Open up your KoS AA tree and look at Agility 3: Trample.  It gives you 5% aoe auto attack per rank, yielding 40% aoe autoattack with 8 points in the skill.</blockquote><p>One thing you aren't taking into account is that most of those double attacks are with ONE hand only, with NO weopon in their offhand.  You are making it out like its some huge godsent when its not.  The double attack is just there to balance out them using a shield instead of duel wielding.  Furthermore, Shamans don't get 35% double attack its only like 16%, unless they changed it, and that also requires a buckler in your offhand.  Warriors have to have a buckler in their offhand also, and not speaking on behalf of all warrior, but I know I didn't use a buckler because your avoidance goes way down.  Its only usefull when tanking heroic encounters, so that leaves them with only 8% double attack if they choose another line, which most do.  </p><p>The other thing I would like to bring up is this idea of uncontested avoidance.  Half of the people in this thread don't even know what they are talking about.  Warriors are the only fighter class to get higher uncontested avoidance than brawler.  The people that keep claiming that knights do are wrong.  Knights have the lowest uncontested avoidance of any fighter class.  The other thing is that block only has a 90 degree frontal cone effectiveness, where as deflection is 360 degrees.  Now this doesnt make up for the difference in uncontested avoidance, or the fact that plate healers still can heal a knight or warrior easier because of their mitigation.  It is always going to be that warrior make the best raid tanks.  That is what they are built for, to be the MT. </p></blockquote><p>Your post is so wrong in so many areas it is not even funny.Please look over paladin AA's because you obviously do not know what your talking about. Beucase paladins gain even more uncontested avodiance then warriors.Furthermore  All plate tanks have EQUAL uncontested avodiance because IT IS BASED ON SHIELDS. Which is not restircted to warriors. While you are looking at AA's please look over the shaman AA that they revamped 4 months ago. Since you obviously do not know anything about any classes even your own i would take the time to learn more before you respond to this discussing with wrong information</p>

[Splor]

Alright gungo, im against most of what you said and yes, i know how the game works.If deflection was done away with we probably wouldnt really get any help at all. Yeah deflection is contested, but not all of it is. Our uncontested should be based off level and quality of our stances(which is where our uncontested avoidance is at). Instead is base simply on quality which is why our level 15 tank stance is probably our best stance(and the cheapest to get). Warriors would still get their block from shields and we would get what? our uncontested avoidance from our stances in the form of +block instead? most + block items are plate and adornments for shields. It honestly wouldnt change anything as our numbers would be exactly the same as they are, and the developers would be more testy about putting + block on other items(like leather and jewelry) because you'd see a guard wearing 3 piece of plate, 3 pieces of chain, a piece of leather, and a healer based bracelet and they'd be running around with like + 60 block, while we would still be like yay, i got a piece of leather with +1 block!If you did real martial arts I doubt you would ever do it in chainmail, though i know this game honestly doesnt revolve around realistic settings, i enjoy the lore at this point.  Most martial arts is really done in fluffy cloth, but i'm not gonna go there :/. The problem here is once again set up with the quality of our stances, not the level. It has a small % increase to mitigation of worn armor. another problem with our mitigation is that the items with the most mitigation come out of DT, and are 2 expansions old. the average mit. on leather kinda sat still in EoF and now it's actually gone down. if you compaired legendary set to legendary set(they have a 10 level spread) the increase is about 10-15 mit per piece which is = to about nothing. On the other hand I've seen chain pieces go from an average of about 320 to 400ish. Our legendary set should at least be pushing about 330 per piece, and our fabled should be about 370(not about 345).I have no problem with scouts using claws.I do have a problem with the offensive types of leather. I am more than willing to share my leather gear with wardens and in some cases scouts, but i would hate to see"Gi of Uber godliness" 35 str, sta, agi, wis, int +10 deflection + 50 heal amount + 10 slashing + haste(god knows monks need more haste!) Based upon how Fyreflight has been itemizing i could see this item popping up, and i could see myself muting it, over and over and over. as a brawler we have no use for either wisdom or int and i'd rather have that spread out over str agi and sta. I also wouldnt need heal amount, just like a healer would have no use for deflection. Although more and more items with different types of attacks have been opening up to use our + slashing weapons in this expansion still suck, but it would once again help out wardens. If they put wis on the pieces i would honestly have no problem with it, but I'd hate to see armor generallization(like fyreflight's previous statement, all healers can use leather, therefore I made more of it for healers than everything else because mitigation doesnt matter{not the exact quote, but i did not leave any of his points out}).I guess i get to wait for you to pick me apart next, but oh well, i said my 2 cents.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Two things I think Monks should be allowed to use are Bows (What never heard of a Zen Archer?) and Boken's (They would likely be 2HB since they are wooden swords) Bamboo and solid wood.</span>

[PaganSaint]

If not bows, then some sort of high delay throwing weapons(7s+)

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I prefer range to delay myself, I remember raiding and having to use thrown because of AoE issues, 1 shotting me. That is why I went the Mantis line the first time still have a lot of points in the Mantis Line.</span>

[Gungo]

<cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Alright gungo, im against most of what you said and yes, i know how the game works.If deflection was done away with we probably wouldnt really get any help at all. Yeah deflection is contested, but not all of it is. Our uncontested should be based off level and quality of our stances(which is where our uncontested avoidance is at). Instead is base simply on quality which is why our level 15 tank stance is probably our best stance(and the cheapest to get). Warriors would still get their block from shields and we would get what? our uncontested avoidance from our stances in the form of +block instead? most + block items are plate and adornments for shields. It honestly wouldnt change anything as our numbers would be exactly the same as they are, and the developers would be more testy about putting + block on other items(like leather and jewelry) because you'd see a guard wearing 3 piece of plate, 3 pieces of chain, a piece of leather, and a healer based bracelet and they'd be running around with like + 60 block, while we would still be like yay, i got a piece of leather with +1 block! <span style="color: #ff0000;">The whole concept of putting uncontested avoidance on shields and then adding it like candy to plate gear is why plate wearers do avoid better then an avoidance tank. But it appears you missed the entire point. I agree ALL FIGHTERS should be equal i would have NO ISSUE if block was the same as DEFLECTION. I would have no issue of block was contested. I would have no issue if EACH FIGHTER's stance dictated thier % of uncontested avodiance based on its quality. The fact is it doesn't. The fact is BRAWLERS are the ONLY CLASS that is limited in such a way. So what i proposed is giving brawlers THE OPTION to INCREASE our uncontested avodiance based on gear. Because believe it or not we are limited by our % being relegated to our stance ONLY. What i proposed is SOE turning all that Deflection gear we get into +block. So that brawlers will have an equal opportunity to increase uncontested avodiance BEYOND our stance's limitation. Sure you might see some ALL class leather being worn by plate tanks. That is fine by me becuase currently we dont have the option to increase our uncontested avodiance AT ALL. But the main reason to remove deflection is because it is USELESS. We are the ONLY CLASS who uses deflection. I could see if deflection was completely uncontested and it being brawler only, but its not. It is about as useful as +defense gear. So if that is the case and brawlers are the only class allowed to use deflection why not make itemization easier by including block to brawlers thus allowing multiple classes the opportunity to use +block items. </span>If you did real martial arts I doubt you would ever do it in chainmail, though i know this game honestly doesnt revolve around realistic settings, i enjoy the lore at this point.  Most martial arts is really done in fluffy cloth, but i'm not gonna go there :/. The problem here is once again set up with the quality of our stances, not the level. It has a small % increase to mitigation of worn armor. another problem with our mitigation is that the items with the most mitigation come out of DT, and are 2 expansions old. the average mit. on leather kinda sat still in EoF and now it's actually gone down. if you compaired legendary set to legendary set(they have a 10 level spread) the increase is about 10-15 mit per piece which is = to about nothing. On the other hand I've seen chain pieces go from an average of about 320 to 400ish. Our legendary set should at least be pushing about 330 per piece, and our fabled should be about 370(not about 345). <span style="color: #ff0000;">Really could care less about the chain idea either, but it is an option to allow leather to be more healer oriented and chain to be more dps oriented making itemization easier for us. I disagree on the mitigation issues you are complaining about. In RoK i am seeing incresased mitigation over anything in KOS, even the gear with + C/S/P. Furthermore i do not know if you realize our stance adds a % to the BASE mitigation. This base does not include ANY +c/s/p. So lets say I happen to have the slave driver tunic or other obvious brawler gear from VP my mitigation is higher then anything i could wear from eof or Kos. Maybe you need to review more of the gear that is dropping in VP. Because it IS an improvement. I am not talking 10-15mit either i am talking like 5-10% mitigation reduction. </span>I have no problem with scouts using claws.I do have a problem with the offensive types of leather. I am more than willing to share my leather gear with wardens and in some cases scouts, but i would hate to see"Gi of Uber godliness" 35 str, sta, agi, wis, int +10 deflection + 50 heal amount + 10 slashing + haste(god knows monks need more haste!) Based upon how Fyreflight has been itemizing i could see this item popping up, and i could see myself muting it, over and over and over. as a brawler we have no use for either wisdom or int and i'd rather have that spread out over str agi and sta. I also wouldnt need heal amount, just like a healer would have no use for deflection. Although more and more items with different types of attacks have been opening up to use our + slashing weapons in this expansion still suck, but it would once again help out wardens. If they put wis on the pieces i would honestly have no problem with it, but I'd hate to see armor generallization(like fyreflight's previous statement, all healers can use leather, therefore I made more of it for healers than everything else because mitigation doesnt matter{not the exact quote, but i did not leave any of his points out}). <span style="color: #ff0000;">You mean like the "robe of battle", "Jarsath gi", and the other gi from CoA that is usable by every class? Maybe you don't "get it". But what i am saying here is already happening in game. All i said is when they create this healer leather gear which the majority of leather gear is healer oreinted now in RoK. to include more diverse effects so that it would benefit brawlers. Such as heal procs that proc on combat arts as well as the successful spell. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Also that "Gi of ubber godliness" would be 35 str agi wis int +<span style="color: #3300ff;"> 10 block </span>+ 50 heal<span style="color: #3300ff;">/combat art </span>+10 slashing + 35 haste (which is completely usable by bruisers) usable by druids/brawlers if i had my way and if you actually understood what i was asking for. Now what that would do is be usable completely by a melee specced warden or a brawler it gives brawlers added combat art damage and EXTRA UNCONTESTED avoidance IN  BLOCK which is the only way to raise uncontested avodiance for any class. Also i wouldnt personally add haste to a Breatplate.</span>I guess i get to wait for you to pick me apart next, but oh well, i said my 2 cents.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I didnt pick you apart i just added clarification where you misunderstood or couldn't comprehend. </span></p></blockquote>

[Meilay]

<p>Everyone else has their opinions, fine, I can agree to disagree any day, but for me this is the SAD truth of it.  Buddy of mine, level 75 berserker at the time, level 78 Necro (who's pet seemed to handle mobs MUCH better than either of us could) and I (level 7<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> at the time were out grinding various mobs, various difficulties.  Mobs that were white or blue con to me.  (Specifically those in City of Mist).  Here's how the typically average fight went... </p><p>Bruiser attacks, mob hits me like I was standing still, maybe bad rolls or maybe because avoidance isn't all it's cracked up to be, though I have 73% (roughly) avoidance for equal level baddie = dead bruiser (in two consecutive VERY swift hits)</p><p>Berserker attacks, is able to hold his own for 10 secs or so due to higher mitigation + combination of block/parry, and then dies.</p><p>Bruiser/ DEAD, Berserker/ DEAD, Necro FD FTW and saves himself healthy repair bill. :o)</p><p> This was tried several times with the same result until flying back to the city of mist wasn't fun anymore.   Berserker 4 levels lower then Bruiser owns the tanking dept. in my example. </p><p>End result we both are dead though I got to cheerlead from the revive screen WAY sooner than he did and I was 3 levels higher.</p><p>I won't dabble in the DPS discussion, but when a TANK can't tank, it's not a TANK.   Well maybe they should turn Bruisers a tradeskill class instead. (Sarcasm FTW)</p>

[lilmohi]

I still think they need to do away with the concept of "avoidance tanks" and go back to like it was in eq1 where monks had a certain amount of innate mitigation based on their level. That way when you add on leather armor a monk would have roughly the same mititgation of an equivalently geared plate tank. Then you could have warrior classes with a slight mitigation edge though self buffs, and monks have a slight avoidance edge, with perhaps crusaders being the middle ground. The big idea of eq2 was that all fighters would be roughly equal tanks with the differences being more in the line of flavor than anything else. You can fix uncontested avoidance and for single groups it will be great but as long as monks rely on luck to not get killed in a raid they will never be a viable tank. Of course i think that all this talk about dps is a bit premature...until tanking if fixed. Normally i hate necroposting but since most of this is still very true i suppose its alright.

[Splor]

Im not gonna quote gungo. but im going to give him my 2 cents. How many brawlers have access to vp? how many do you think will in a year? maybe 5-6 for my whole server? ahh yeah. the stuff at the top is an upgrade but that fact that other brawlers at the bottom have to try to work their way to the top in degraded mitigation is just fine. yeah... If deflection was uncontested period it would be > shields. You figure you get 16% from tank stance and if it was uncontested another 30-35%. One again, if deflection was done away with brawlers would have less of an option to pick it up over plate tanks that would have all the options. Yeah, plate could go down and get it at leather like i said and get the plate with it. therefore, they would still avoid more than us which doesnt fix the issue at all, we would have MORE than we have now, but we would still have LESS than plate tanks. And yeah you can add hey it helps this class and that class and this other class and allows for easy blah, but good god i dont want my [Removed for Content] healers tanking(even if you are inquisitors) and I dont want my scouts tanking either.the point im getting across and your obviously missing is that deflection was made to be > block for avoiding. that has changed because A) our uncontested avoidance has stayed the same, the contested part is worthless. B) Shields were in line with our uncontested until the shields of today and the itemization backing them.Im sure your going to come back but I still say your idea reeks of try to mold things to a broken game mechanic, not fix the mechanic itself. i want fix fix fix, not i got an easy button.

[x0rtrun]

The only benefit of deflection is that it is 360 degrees. So why not just use uncontested block for the frontal arc and then reduce deflection to be the rear 180 degree arc. We then have the same 360 degree protection but have some actual uncontested avoidance to bring us back in line with plate tanks. And honestly... who care if you can deflect from behind? Instances where this comes into play are so limited as to be pointless. We tank while FACING the mob anyway. That's where it really counts.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I can think of one common instance, Training. Just thought I'd remind you of that. I take nasty hits from behind when training often getting too stunned to FD.Discuss </span>

[Gungo]

<cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im not gonna quote gungo. but im going to give him my 2 cents. How many brawlers have access to vp? how many do you think will in a year? maybe 5-6 for my whole server? ahh yeah. the stuff at the top is an upgrade but that fact that other brawlers at the bottom have to try to work their way to the top in degraded mitigation is just fine. yeah... If deflection was uncontested period it would be > shields. You figure you get 16% from tank stance and if it was uncontested another 30-35%. One again, if deflection was done away with brawlers would have less of an option to pick it up over plate tanks that would have all the options. Yeah, plate could go down and get it at leather like i said and get the plate with it. therefore, they would still avoid more than us which doesnt fix the issue at all, we would have MORE than we have now, but we would still have LESS than plate tanks. And yeah you can add hey it helps this class and that class and this other class and allows for easy blah, but good god i dont want my [I cannot control my vocabulary] healers tanking(even if you are inquisitors) and I dont want my scouts tanking either.the point im getting across and your obviously missing is that deflection was made to be > block for avoiding. that has changed because A) our uncontested avoidance has stayed the same, the contested part is worthless. B) Shields were in line with our uncontested until the shields of today and the itemization backing them.Im sure your going to come back but I still say your idea reeks of try to mold things to a broken game mechanic, not fix the mechanic itself. i want fix fix fix, not i got an easy button.</blockquote>If your going to compare the end gear of an expansion 2 years ago and say its not an upgrade to the current expansion you [I cannot control my vocabulary] well better include the current end game gear as well. if not your whole post losses merit. Fact is if deflection was turned into block it would STILL BE LESS then plate tanks. You forget one thing while we will only be able to increase our block through items plate wearers can still use a shield that adds up to 22-24% uncontested avodiance currently FROM THE SHIELD ALONE. This is not an overpower fix maybe in your head it seems that way but your wrong. Currently a plate tank can get over 40% uncontested avodiance and yet you think if they turned the few items we get into block instead that somehow we would get anough uncontested avodiance to pass them. Please pass me whatever your smoking. You dont know what you are talking about PERIOD. Our stance does not add additional uncontested avodiance it allows 16% of our deflection to be uncontested. Why don't you do yoruself a favor log on your toon and see how much contested deflection you have RIGHT NOW. And i will log my guilds guard and/or paladin and post how much uncontested avodiance they have. Becuase it is really that simple to prove to you how utterly wrong you are. Btw you still fail to acknowledge that brawlers are the only class to use deflection which is partly why it is such a rare stat to find on gear.

[Splor]

Alrighty gungo, this is my last shot at this. I KNOW THAT PLATE TANKS HAVE MORE AVOID. DUH. the point i made was deflection is SUPPOSED to BE MORE THAN BLOCKKKKKKKK.... we are supposed to avoid more than plate tanks and that is where it is SUPPOSED to come from. another thing i mentioned in my first post was that our level 16 tank stance is our best stance(at master I). Go check it out. Deflection seems to be all over this expansion, I dont see why you say its so rare really :/. I do consider the end game gear and no i dont ignore it. You tell me where i ignore it and ill gladly say Sorry, i suck, but your not going to find that The point i made is they Upgraded the end game gear, but as far as tanking/survivability its DOWNGRADED for anything not at the top or the few scattered rare fabled in the instances. You dont even seem to read my post beyond a few words and then shoot it down. reread. comprehend. then try to come back. You pulled the same crap on my last post.

[Gungo]

<cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alrighty gungo, this is my last shot at this. I KNOW THAT PLATE TANKS HAVE MORE AVOID. DUH. the point i made was deflection is SUPPOSED to BE MORE THAN BLOCKKKKKKKK.... we are supposed to avoid more than plate tanks and that is where it is SUPPOSED to come from. another thing i mentioned in my first post was that our level 16 tank stance is our best stance(at master I). Go check it out. Deflection seems to be all over this expansion, I dont see why you say its so rare really :/. I do consider the end game gear and no i dont ignore it. You tell me where i ignore it and ill gladly say Sorry, i suck, but your not going to find that The point i made is they Upgraded the end game gear, but as far as tanking/survivability its DOWNGRADED for anything not at the top or the few scattered rare fabled in the instances. You dont even seem to read my post beyond a few words and then shoot it down. reread. comprehend. then try to come back. You pulled the same crap on my last post.</blockquote><p>Yea this expansion is teaming w deflection gear do me a favor and list all the deflection gear in this expansion. I can garauntee you. You will not be able to find more then a handful of items. Fact is i did every single quest and all i have been doing is farming named for masters.  I have over 8 factions ally. I do not buy into your"deflection seems to be all over this expansion" What you saw maybe a decent wrist and a ring and think wow look at all this delfection items. Try again. </p><p>Btw i also do not buy into your statement our lvl 16 def stance is our best stance. While i do understand what you mean. We are not guardians. I know that the %'s are the same through each tier of stance, but we also loose out on the 45+ deflection and defense our master tier 8 stance provides. That is a huge loss. In a heroic figth i do not have an issue with hitting mobs due to the loss of + crushing. Then again in heroic fights i usually use mid stance but either or that + defense and deflection actually works on heroics. Which is why we are decent heroic tanks. So i guess you are trying to say our lvl 16 defensive stance is good for tanking epics where contested avodiance has the least effect. But then i am usually fully buffed in epic fights with the dirge and usually warden + skill buffs. Unless i am tanking trakanon or a similar lvl 86 epic i do not miss much in that type of group. So what do you gain by using the lvl 16 stance? Or are you just regurgitating what another fighter class told you such as a guard who due to self buffs and gear is perennially above the defense cap and makes little use from the additional plus defense. quite simply you gain absolutely nothing from using the lvl 16 defensive stance UNLESS due to poor group setups you are having a hard time landing 80%+ of your attacks, but you do loose a LARGE amount of deflection, defense, parry. So maybe you should go check it out. </p><p>I know what you are trying to say. You are saying deflection was SUPPOSE to be bette rthen block originally. BUT it is NOT. IT has gotten to the point where block since it is completely uncontested keeps going up each and every tier AND then it is being placed on other gear. This raises the % block ACTUALLY avoids epic or high atk rate mobs above and beyond deflection. </p><p>But you completely avoid/ignore or lack of comprehension that several times as i repeated myself, that deflection is a skill ONLY used by brawlers. That deflection is limited due to its scope. That deflection makes itemization for brawlers so specific and sporadic, that brawlers are inherently screwed due to such a specialized skill set. That itemization then becomes tedious and difficult just to provide the basic fundementals our class needs. That in the end block is a superior skill set and due to the fact deflection is currently limited it is better if brawlers had block then a weaker skill in deflection. Do you get it yet? Or do in your own words continue to not "even seem to read my post beyond a few words and then shoot it down. reread. comprehend. then try to come back." Because it is blatantly clear you are not. </p>

[Traxor]

Brawlers need some tank love. Its possible with the best stuff in the world to dps. Im fine with that.Best gear in the world with skill backing you cant make you take the shots a brawler is taking.<cite></cite>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But you completely avoid/ignore or lack of comprehension that several times as i repeated myself, that deflection is a skill ONLY used by brawlers. That deflection is limited due to its scope. That deflection makes itemization for brawlers so specific and sporadic, that brawlers are inherently screwed due to such a specialized skill set. That itemization then becomes tedious and difficult just to provide the basic fundementals our class needs.</p></blockquote><p>I just don't see how this is the case.  If the item designers choose to add +deflection +block +focus +defense whatever to an item, they will do it even if the allowable classes can only use some of the stats and skill mods.  I've gotten plenty of multi-class items with one skill usable and one skill not usable.</p>

[Junaru]

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But you completely avoid/ignore or lack of comprehension that several times as i repeated myself, that deflection is a skill ONLY used by brawlers. That deflection is limited due to its scope. That deflection makes itemization for brawlers so specific and sporadic, that brawlers are inherently screwed due to such a specialized skill set. That itemization then becomes tedious and difficult just to provide the basic fundementals our class needs.</p></blockquote><p>I just don't see how this is the case.  If the item designers choose to add +deflection +block +focus +defense whatever to an item, they will do it even if the allowable classes can only use some of the stats and skill mods.  I've gotten plenty of multi-class items with one skill usable and one skill not usable.</p></blockquote>The problem is if you ad deflection to an item a long with another stat then the Brawler class will get the benefits of both but ever other class only get the one.

[mr23sgte]

<p>Since Monks are getting all the attention on "TEST" </p><p>1) "PEEL" change.</p><p>2) Mythical weapon "Strikethrough" change.</p><p>How about revisiting the Brawler AA Line on "TEST" .  You know which one ........................</p>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since Monks are getting all the attention on "TEST" </p><p>1) "PEEL" change.</p><p>2) Mythical weapon "Strikethrough" change.</p><p>How about revisiting the Brawler AA Line on "TEST" .  You know which one ........................</p></blockquote>To spell out Hereo's point for those who might be interested, he's referring to the strength line which is now the only AA line (to the best of my knowledge) of all classes that cannot be used with Epic weapons.  The revamps of AA lines a year or so ago were supposed to address this, but the brawler strength line was not modified, and still requires the brawler to be unarmed.  With epic weapons now in the game, it does seem appropriate for the strength line to be changed so that brawlers can actually use the strength line *and* their epic weapons together.  Many ways of accomplishing this have been proposed.  One popular idea: Strength 3 can be made to add less double attack if armed (15-25% perhaps).  Strength 4 can simply remove the unarmed restriction, considering that brawlers are already the weakest in uncontested avoidance.On a separate note, what happened to the peel thread that was in this forum last night?

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">From a recent Allakhazam dev-chat:</span><ul><li><b>monksrock</b>: Rothgar: I actcutally have 2 questions. 1.) Is the 2GB memory crash still being looked into?, and 2.) Is the Brawler STR AA line going to be looked into for a fix to work with the epics?</li><li><b>Rothgar</b>: A certain amount of processing has to be done on the client, especially things that are very computationally heavy.</li><li><b>Lyndro</b>: Monksrock: The brawler strength line was changed to remove the no weapon requirement. It was added back at the behest of the community on a whole. Allowing use of the strength line with the epic would either mean re-evaluating the epic or re-evaluating the strength line</li><li><b>Lyndro</b>: It was an unpopular change originally. Monks use that line to level up. Changing it for the epic would make it much less useful for that. I'm not going to flat out say no, but I'd put the chances of that happening as low </li></ul><span style="color: #00cc00;">Apparently they have <i>misread </i>our <u>needs</u> on the subject.</span>

[mr23sgte]

I'm tired of this "level-up" argument. I didnt use that line and guess what I'm still level 80. Its unreasonable to say this line is for people who cant afford weapons.  My Fury and Coercer don't have a "I cant afford good weapons and dont raid" AA line...........

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm tired of this "level-up" argument. I didnt use that line and guess what I'm still level 80. Its unreasonable to say this line is for people who cant afford weapons.  My Fury and Coercer don't have a "I cant afford good weapons and dont raid" AA line...........</blockquote>I think the silliest thing is that they could have made it keep the unarmed effect and add an effect for weapon-wielding such as lowered double attack rate, which has been proposed ad nauseum by the brawler community as a whole.  To say that the community as a whole rejected the changes is also not correct.  There were plenty against keeping it unarm restricted.

[Couching]

Sigh, guys, do you really believe their excuse that str line is reserved for level up?The real reason is because they can't give us a useful line no matter for tanking or dps.They did try to give us a totally gimped revamp str line on test sever and it's much useless than the original. Of course, no body supported it and it's dead before going to live sever.Why did they can't give us a useful tank line?It's because we can't tank as good or close as plate tank. They already have trouble to make plate tanks happy. They are not going to let us make it worse.Why did they can't give us a useful dps line?It's because we can't dps as good or close as dpsers. Guardian is trolling that brawler should stick to off tank.Zerker is trolling that brawler should stay away of  off tanking.Dpser is trolling that brawler should go back to tank rather than dps (because we are supposedly to be a tank, hack, even we don't tank ANY mob in 90%-95% raid content).It's so classic.

[Junaru]

40 page thread about the STR line and SOE still thinks the Brawler community doesn't want ti changed? Good God SOE do we need to spell it out for you.

[Morrias]

<p>Yeah im leveling a briggy as my main becuase SoE CLEARLY dont want brawlers in raids, something I love doing, and they DONT LISTEN TO A WORD the brawler community says, im really sick of it.. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> Oh and for you idiots that actualy believe sonys explanation to why our STR tree sucks, Count how many other classes have a line that is only usefull for leveling.. I mean hell look at rogues, not 1 line that makes you cry everytime you look at it.. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Splor]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>40 page thread about the STR line and SOE still thinks the Brawler community doesn't want ti changed? Good God SOE do we need to spell it out for you. </blockquote>I imagine we're getting close to breaking a record atm without have the thread closed. Regardless either that developer has never seen this thread or chooses not to read it. It is obvious that we would love to have the Str line changed, but it'll never happen at this point.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I think that is because this IS the main thread on the subject, that and while we complain and defend vs Trolls (The Forum kind not the race <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) we try not to be abusive.</span>